even in posts that do just that, the "L2P noob, look how l33t i m crowd" takes these threads over very quickly
I often wonder how much time all those, eng/cruisers are doing fine ppl, actually spend on their eng toons
Answer for about 90%? O.
Some people are not looking for balance but want to keep the status quo as they like being on top. Doesn't really matter what these guys are saying as the developers have the final say. They are supposed to have the metrics available to make a good decision. But, way too aften, it is players that have to explain the math and the mechanics to these developers. Seen it a hundred times or more in just the PVP forums.
This is what happens when you don't bother to actualy play your own game, all your thinking about is what will sell in the store, or the next version of whatever you can throw in a lock-box.
Many of the perceptions that some Cruiser pilots have stems from not knowing how the game works or the ability to keep up with the constant changes to how things works based on the constant complainst from the playerbase.
Hell, I barely keep up and I'm considered a poor PvP'er and build designer. ( As evidenced by the posts in the past that have said my builds sucked)
As Kirk once said, " Know how things work."
As evidenced by those whom have designed DPS Cruiser builds that do work.
Well that's how games are. And yes, there are DPS cruiser builds that work, I like to think mine is ok in that respect. The only catch here is that many cruiser pilots want to do more damage than they do, even with dps builds that work, since a lot of them have also flown escorts and they want to be able to do that damage output.
I know that's not possible, which is why I never really wanted that. But at the same time, I still want a little more damage without having to sacrifice too much tankiness, which is unfair on my part. However I can see this, which is why I am kinda backin off, since you are right biteme, you have to give and take. And if I want to keep my tankiness, I have to give up damage. And in all honesty I always preferred survivability over damage output.
That's not limited to just this game lol... In League of Legends I usually play tank. Lots of hp armor and MR, but not a lot of damage output. But plenty of disrupt ability. In BSGO I play a line, lots of health and armor, good weapons, but not geared towards much other than staying alive.
That being said and totally off topic, I understand (now anyways), as meimetoo put it, that you "can't have it all". Which sucks, but hey, that's life lol...
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Many of the perceptions that some Cruiser pilots have stems from not knowing how the game works or the ability to keep up with the constant changes to how things works based on the constant complainst from the playerbase.
Hell, I barely keep up and I'm considered a poor PvP'er and build designer. ( As evidenced by the posts in the past that have said my builds sucked)
As Kirk once said, " Know how things work."
As evidenced by those whom have designed DPS Cruiser builds that do work.
Your builds are not that bad at all. I have gotten several ideas from yours and Mav's myself.
However, there is NO counter to all the DPS adds that have wormed their way into STO since F2P and that's what most crusier pilots are asking for as we're the ones who supposedly "tank". Altho I did see in guild chat a new P2L (pay-to-live) console that adds like 300% defense that some1 pulled out of the latest version of the lock-boxes.
I'd prefer it not become either. It's already a well established FACT that tactical captains are much much higher at dealing damage. And I like to think my Engi isn't totally useless, just not as useful as it could be.
Tactical is the DD class. If Engineers are less effective in PvE, then the game is at fault becuase as a game designer thier product should allow for any class to be viable and fun to play.
As to the Fed versus KDf versus Crusiers versus Battle Crusiers versus escorts popping out in text. It has already happened and may be the reason this thread has not had a Dev response yet (that I've seen, but it is a lot of pages)
I agree. But I personally think and have stated many times, the Fleet Tor'Kaht is probably the sexiest cruiser I have ever seen. It looks good, has a beautiful console setup and great BOff setup as well.
I have yet to fork out the $20 buck for one, though I look forward to it.
Forgive my apparent ignorance, but how does one do this? My AC can't get above 11 turn, even with a mk XII rcs console (granted it's a white, but still, that's only 5% difference).
Purple or Blue Mk12s RCS's, High points in the Turn Skill, Using powers like A2D or ApO, etc.
Admittedly its not a thing I'm great at myself.
I also agree with this. On my KDF toon (yes, I have one lol) I fly a Qin, and love it. BUT when I compare it to my FPE on my fed side, I find myself wishing I didn't have to swing that damn nose around so much. On paper, it has the same turn rate, and should be just as good, but in practice my FPE leaves it in the dust. Something really should be done about that turn axis, so no, please don't start that here lol... but I do sympathize and agree with you.
Feds have the Better Escorts. I'm actually fine with that as a KDF player and my only complaint on the Raptor is the pivot point that gives it a slow nose.
The Heavy beam idea had merit until it hit the as much as DHC's in damage, 270 firing arc and Fed only wall. At that point its not a seriuos idea but one to compensate for a players lacking skill level and a placate to a particular fan type instead of a game balancing factor.
The idea to buff the turn rates (and adjust the enertia) of Cruisers and battle Cruisers is a good idea as long as its across the board for everyone. Make all Cannons open to all ships and let it go I say.
I even liked the idea of some new Beam BOff abilities that give the Beam Using a CRF-like ability.
Just giving the fed Cruiser a damage buff though with all its existing tanking capabilities is imbalanced.
Your builds are not that bad at all. I have gotten several ideas from yours and Mav's myself.
It has never bothered me.
I long learned that I have always walked to the beat of different trumpet in this live or my past one.
However, there is NO counter to all the DPS adds that have wormed their way into STO since F2P and that's what most crusier pilots are asking for as we're the ones who supposedly "tank". Altho I did see in guild chat a new P2L (pay-to-live) console that adds like 300% defense that some1 pulled out of the latest version of the lock-boxes.
Exactly how many "adds" are there that are new? I am not up on all the consoles or unique weapons.
I know of the Overstacking Weapon Power for beams. (doesn't work for cannons)
Running 2 ApO's with or with Ap DOffs for the defense and damage boost.
Using TI before using the other tac buffs.
Using ApA of course.
Saving GDF for those moment of low hull (or when you have hull resists at max with low hull)
EPTW for the buff to power and damage.
DEM, currently without CRF or BFAW, for bonus damage.
CRF, CSV, BO and BFAW.
and of course Tac Fleet.
I know that some weapon types and abilities have been recently adjusted or changed for balance reasons.
The Heavy beam idea had merit until it hit the as much as DHC's in damage, 270 firing arc and Fed only wall. At that point its not a seriuos idea but one to compensate for a players lacking skill level and a placate to a particular fan type instead of a game balancing factor.
The idea to buff the turn rates (and adjust the enertia) of Cruisers and battle Cruisers is a good idea as long as its across the board for everyone. Make all Cannons open to all ships and let it go I say.
I even liked the idea of some new Beam BOff abilities that give the Beam Using a CRF-like ability.
Just giving the fed Cruiser a damage buff though with all its existing tanking capabilities is imbalanced.
The DHC level damage was my idea, but I compensated for it by lowering the firing rate significantly to reduce it's overall dps but still have high base damage to give better BO potential, which was the idea behind it originally. In fact, if you look at how I designed it, it was actually a trick design. I gave it higher base damage but lowered the firing rate to the point that the actual DPS was almost unchanged.
However the increased base damage gave it higher BO potential, and also made BFAW also a mite more dangerous (original intent behind both). And the fed only wall was originally because the KDF bcs could use DHCs, until I came to realize what you said earlier, which is most of them run beams anyways... so I now retract that and say give it to both sides.
But there is one thing I would do to make it more fair. I would restrict the energy types that these "Heavy Beam Arrays" would be. I would limit them to Disruptor and Phaser only. Before someone blows a gasket, let me explain. This would be a specialty weapon specifically designed by the KDF engineers and SCoE, so naturally they would use their pre-existing specialties, KDF with their disruptors, and Starfleet and their phasers.
As for a beam rapid fire? Hell I'd back that. Sounds fun actually. Let's replicate what the D did on many occasions lol.
And I agree with your final comment. Boosting damage without any drawbacks due to the inherent tankiness that cruisers already have is bad juju. So what would you say we should give up in exchange?
P.S. I was thinking about all the times I heard fire at will on the show, and that resulted in EVERYTHING getting fired, phasers, torps, the kitchen sink. So I was thinking make a captain ability to do just that. Can only be activated under X% hull. For the next X number of seconds all weapons gain X boost to their firing rates with X boost to crit chance and severity (desperation damage). 5 min cd (like the team bonuses).
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Unfortunately if the Engineer, Science and their vessels are not up to the job required in PvE because PvE is too Damage dependent, then thats an issue with the game and how missions are completed, not nessicarily the Cruiser. The Devs need to correct the game so all classes can accomplish the missions.
That's a refreshing perspective. I never really thought about it like that. I would certainly support that if the Devs attempted to re-work the game from that particular aspect so all types of ships made sense and had a bonafide purpose/niche.
P.S. I was thinking about all the times I heard fire at will on the show, and that resulted in EVERYTHING getting fired, phasers, torps, the kitchen sink. So I was thinking make a captain ability to do just that. Can only be activated under X% hull. For the next X number of seconds all weapons gain X boost to their firing rates with X boost to crit chance and severity (desperation damage). 5 min cd (like the team bonuses).
Sounds like Go Down Fighting to me. :eek:
To increase your turn add a couple of RCS consoles, & a couple of copies of Aux2Id. As well as maxing out the maneuverability trait when you respec. Another thing you can do is increase your engine power setting, especially if you are running an engine that is more efficient at a higher power setting( like the Borg one.) Higher engine power also makes you harder to hit as well.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Time played in game. as of 9/12/12 (on my mains) Total 2907 hours.K'zoontite has been on active duty for 34 days, 3 hours, Bot Fly has been on active duty for 55 days, 4 hours, Poppa Capp has been on active duty for 4 days, 12 hours, B'zooka has been on active duty for 12 days, 22 hours,Tater(fed) has been on active duty for 14 days, 10 hours,
I have the 4 fsms burning a hole in my bank right now lol...
Sadly I have a medical coverage to make this month so money is scarce for the moment.
It'll pass and I will acquire one when it does.
The DHC level damage was my idea, but I compensated for it by lowering the firing rate significantly to reduce it's overall dps but still have high base damage to give better BO potential, which was the idea behind it originally. In fact, if you look at how I designed it, it was actually a trick design. I gave it higher base damage but lowered the firing rate to the point that the actual DPS was almost unchanged.
In reality only the 270 degree firing arc and no KDF allowed additions bothered me.
And only becuase I have a double tap BO build that would love a broadside capable beam that does DHC damage levels.
At 270 FA, that is a bit overpowerful and easily exploitable.
KDF not allowed was just plain mean, unless of course the KDf gets a special Octocannon.:rolleyes::P
However the increased base damage gave it higher BO potential, and also made BFAW also a mite more dangerous (original intent behind both). And the fed only wall was originally because the KDF bcs could use DHCs, until I came to realize what you said earlier, which is most of them run beams anyways... so I now retract that and say give it to both sides.
So a (4) Heavy Beam arrays + (4) standard beam arrays broadside would not seem to much for you?
Actually its not too much for me iether and I will even offer the idea it be somewhat restricted in that HC's may not be mountable on all Escorts, but only those whom have the mass to accomidate them. (leave that up the the Devs)
But there is one thing I would do to make it more fair. I would restrict the energy types that these "Heavy Beam Arrays" would be. I would limit them to Disruptor and Phaser only. Before someone blows a gasket, let me explain. This would be a specialty weapon specifically designed by the KDF engineers and SCoE, so naturally they would use their pre-existing specialties, KDF with their disruptors, and Starfleet and their phasers.
Or just ask the Devs to make them very very rare drops but availible in all energy types and have the Phaser and Disruptor variants only purchaseble.
And I agree with your final comment. Boosting damage without any drawbacks due to the inherent tankiness that cruisers already have is bad juju. So what would you say we should give up in exchange?
I actually say nothing.
Don't change the Cruisers (outside of a turnrate buff) and let the differences in damage output be fixed by new weapons, new beam BOff abilities and by fixing the game so all Toon classes are viable in PvE.
PvP is a-whole-nother beast and a persons viability in PvP should not be a Dev buffed factor but up to how well the player uses the tools they have at hand.
P.S. I was thinking about all the times I heard fire at will on the show, and that resulted in EVERYTHING getting fired, phasers, torps, the kitchen sink. So I was thinking make a captain ability to do just that. Can only be activated under X% hull. For the next X number of seconds all weapons gain X boost to their firing rates with X boost to crit chance and severity (desperation damage). 5 min cd (like the team bonuses).
Make it a All-Captains ability like BFI? May be a bit tricky for tacs since they already have GDF, TF, APA, etc.
Or change GDF to this idea and make GDF a All captains ability? Its not like tacs are the only class choice that can decide to go down fighting to the last breath and hope for victory.
In reality only the 270 degree firing arc and no KDF allowed additions bothered me.
And only becuase I have a double tap BO build that would love a broadside capable beam that does DHC damage levels.
At 270 FA, that is a bit overpowerful and easily exploitable.
KDF not allowed was just plain mean, unless of course the KDf gets a special Octocannon.:rolleyes::P
Ok you can have that, but you can't have our smoothie machine. That's fed cruiser only.
So a (4) Heavy Beam arrays + (4) standard beam arrays broadside would not seem to much for you?
Actually its not too much for me iether and I will even offer the idea it be somewhat restricted in that HC's may not be mountable on all Escorts, but only those whom have the mass to accomidate them. (leave that up the the Devs)
Actually the idea would be to run 8 Heavy Beam Arrays. As I said, there won't be a huge increase in DPS due to firing rate, and that way you can have consistent fire. Hm... I just thought of something... the lower firing rate would actually make them far more powerful since that would be greatly reduced power drain... Since they do have the same drain as standard BAs... Something I guess for the devs to balance out then.
Make it a All-Captains ability like BFI? May be a bit tricky for tacs since they already have GDF, TF, APA, etc.
Or change GDF to this idea and make GDF a All captains ability? Its not like tacs are the only class choice that can decide to go down fighting to the last breath and hope for victory.
Yeah, that's what I was figuring. Cuz the way I see it, why not fire everything you've got and then as your last act in this universe ram them? I always wanted to do that, go down in a massive blaze of phasers and torpedos followed by the ultimate sacrifice to make sure that damn probe died XD.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
It has never bothered me.
I long learned that I have always walked to the beat of different trumpet in this live or my past one.
Exactly how many "adds" are there that are new? I am not up on all the consoles or unique weapons.
I know of the Overstacking Weapon Power for beams. (doesn't work for cannons)
Running 2 ApO's with or with Ap DOffs for the defense and damage boost.
Using TI before using the other tac buffs.
Using ApA of course.
Saving GDF for those moment of low hull (or when you have hull resists at max with low hull)
EPTW for the buff to power and damage.
DEM, currently without CRF or BFAW, for bonus damage.
CRF, CSV, BO and BFAW.
and of course Tac Fleet.
I know that some weapon types and abilities have been recently adjusted or changed for balance reasons.
You covered them pretty well. However, there are doff missions that give tac buffs if the timing is right, tac buffs that come with fleet now (along with eng buffs as well), 5 tac console escorts, and with the skillbox revamps came quite a bit if you speced for them. Tac buffs there went way up via cking a 1st tier box. Fleet weapons, new rare drops for Mk 12 weapons. The ACC nerf to beams seems not to get cannons no where near like it nailed beams as well. I left shorlty after the skillbox revamps for TOR so most of this past year seems rather new to me. It was probably a power creep of sorts, added here and there, but if you come back after it all was completed, the DPS adds are basicly incredible. My escort kills like never before while my excel (mostly due to the ACC nerf) got nailed for about 600K+ DPS in the common 15 match. Think about the ones here recently as well. A torp that fires 180 degrees? More P2W consoles, I keep hearing about almost everyday, how something else dropped out of a lockbox (console, new weapons, etc).
All of this went on while the "hardened shield" build went down the drain. They took that box out and changed the consoles that made it even possible. Several people I knew ran that build, including myself with was a large add to 'tanking". With that build of before I didn't have to run EptS 1 and 2 on all the time on a macro much less the other shield sci buff. That allowed people to pick up a bit more hull tanking skills which is really missed at this point. Much less, just taking out the points that ev1 used to run all space vs now having to put points in ground.
Alright, since we've been discussing "canon": Escorts in the show were not supposed to be uber death machines that nothing could withstand, they were a cheap way of getting more firepower out there to defend the federation without the time and resources associated with building massive cruisers. They are what happens when you take the weapons, shields, and engines of a cruiser, subtract the cruiser, bolt them together, and send them out into combat. Additionally, in ds9, they showed the defiant tearing through ships quickly, but you would also see a galaxy class pretty much one shot a bug ship with a single phaser beam shot, in fact, I seem to remember seeing a galaxy pop three or so bugs in a row with a couple quick phaser beam shots so... yeah. This happened because they were trying to deliver an epic 'war' battle in a reasonable amount of time, not the usual, drawn-out one ship against another ship or two that had been shown before. Additionally, the defiant had trouble dealing with an upgraded 80 year old excelsior class, so should the defiant be able to rip through a state of the art, pride of the federation, sovereign in under 5 seconds in sto? Yeah... no. Also, in the movies, the enterprise wasn't sitting around hoping the defiant would come kill this ship that was being a big meanie and picking on it, the ship could take care of itself, so TRIBBLE cruiser damage is total BS.
I also firmly believe that all the ships should be reasonably balanced. I don't like the typical mmo "tank/healer/dd" trifecta being applied to star trek. And I think the argument that you "need" that system to inspire cooperation is stupid. If it takes 5 ships to take out a tac cube, then people will have to work together, no matter how independent they otherwise might be. Also, anyone familiar with the tank/dd/healer system knows that the system can actually make it harder to cooperate because a group already has a healer and doesn't need another, or already has a tank, and doesn't need another. So it actually makes it easier for players to play together when they don't have to follow the typical mmo formula for success. Additionally, Every ship in star trek had a tractor beam, not just ships with a science officer with the "skill" to push the button labeled "tractor beam." Many "skills" should be hardware functions that are available on every ship. Guess what happened when captain janeway or picard ordered a volley of torpedoes fired. Did someone have to quickly solve a jigsaw puzzle? No, they pushed a button. Wooo... impressive skill. So, super sad, 2-torp volleys in cruisers and sci ships because ensigns are apparently too TRIBBLE to press the button labeled "5 torps please" is just... really.... super sad, and not-canon. Also, there really wasn't a "mine launcher" in any of the shows, the torpedo launcher could fire a volley directed at one target, a spread at several targets, or drop the torps like mines, or simply lay mines out of the torp tubes. I'd like torpedo launchers to have "commands" or "settings" kinda like a carrier has for its fighters, you can set it to 'spread' mode 'volley' mode, or if in the aft, 'mine' mode, depending on the situation, torp tubes were supposed to be versatile like that. So perhaps remove the one torp every 5-10 seconds and have the tube fire a volley/spread/lay mine spread every 15-20 seconds as you would if you had two copies of the "skill". Cannons should have spread mode or single target mode (single target mode would be like constant rapid fire), forget the "rapid fire" skill BS. Imagine if star trek ds9 actually went as it would in sto... sisko telling worf "rapid fire, mr. worf!... now rapid fire again!... and again!" Worf would go into a klingon rage and rip his head off. There was no, "fire the cannons, now I want you to REALLY fire the cannons!" I think "fire at will" should be a setting for beams like scatter volley would be a setting for cannons with the normal beam setting being "concentrated fire" or whatever. Beam overload could remain a skill, perhaps with a "cannon overload" as the cannon counterpart for a "burst damage" skill. If most of these "skills" were reverted to hardware functions/commands, I think many of the complaints would go away and the game would play more like fans of the show expect. Of course then they would have to make up ACTUAL skills for tac officers to have... (oh noes.)
Also, I'm of the opinion that all the ships should be essentially the same damage and tankability, simply with different play styles/methods of doing it. Cruisers just absorbing damage while being slower and less maneuverable (but not quite the quadruple amputee-turtles cruisers are now), while escorts and sci ships can take a respectable hit, but mostly evasion tank. How would the enterprise E tank a borg cube? It would just take the beating, how would voyager/defiant tank it? They would get in super close and try to avoid weapon ports and keep moving super quickly. I actually think cruisers should do the most outright damage, while escorts (and sci ships) use their maneuverability and speed/special skills/sensors to take advantage of enemy weaknesses. In fact, if they balanced the game so that tac team could be removed (or the shield distribution nerfed/replaced with some other awesome like a better damage boost) without obliterating us all, escorts/sci ships would have the advantage of using their speed and maneuverability to stay on a weak shield facing without the magic of tac team always making whatever facing is taking damage into the strongest facing.
So, I would propose making all weapons have the same damage but with increased shield penetration the smaller the firing arc. I.E. beam arrays would do as much damage as dual heavy cannons, but beam arrays might only have 10% shield penetration while dual heavy cannons have 30-40% penetration. That, or they could all do the same damage against shields but have higher hull damage based on the concentration of their firing arc. (I think the second idea would work out better for balance, particularly so sci ships wouldn't lose the advantage of their shields against escorts considering their low hull hp) I would also want all torps to have the same base damage and cool time, just each has it's own special flavor like quantums could do extra shield damage while chronitons slow, plasma give the plasma dot, transphasics partially bypass shields, etc. And... I dunno what special flavor to give photons. (suggestions?) I would have cruisers be more maneuverable, and a key difference I would make between escorts/sci and cruisers is that cruisers would significantly lose speed when turning (so they are just as fast in a straight line as escort/sci) while escorts/sci can keep going as fast as normal when turning, thus making them much faster/more maneuverable in combat for taking advantage of weaknesses and lining up of powers and whatnot while also maintaining their high evasion. Also escorts/sci would more quickly achieve their top speed while cruisers would take a few seconds to get going again due to their mass. Hmm... I think I'll leave it at that for now.
Alright, since we've been discussing "canon": Escorts in the show were not supposed to be uber death machines that nothing could withstand, they were a cheap way of getting more firepower out there to defend the federation without the time and resources associated with building massive cruisers. They are what happens when you take the weapons, shields, and engines of a cruiser, subtract the cruiser, bolt them together, and send them out into combat. Additionally, in ds9, they showed the defiant tearing through ships quickly, but you would also see a galaxy class pretty much one shot a bug ship with a single phaser beam shot, in fact, I seem to remember seeing a galaxy pop three or so bugs in a row with a couple quick phaser beam shots so... yeah. This happened because they were trying to deliver an epic 'war' battle in a reasonable amount of time, not the usual, drawn-out one ship against another ship or two that had been shown before. Additionally, the defiant had trouble dealing with an upgraded 80 year old excelsior class, so should the defiant be able to rip through a state of the art, pride of the federation, sovereign in under 5 seconds in sto? Yeah... no. Also, in the movies, the enterprise wasn't sitting around hoping the defiant would come kill this ship that was being a big meanie and picking on it, the ship could take care of itself, so TRIBBLE cruiser damage is total BS.
I also firmly believe that all the ships should be reasonably balanced. I don't like the typical mmo "tank/healer/dd" trifecta being applied to star trek. And I think the argument that you "need" that system to inspire cooperation is stupid. If it takes 5 ships to take out a tac cube, then people will have to work together, no matter how independent they otherwise might be. Also, anyone familiar with the tank/dd/healer system knows that the system can actually make it harder to cooperate because a group already has a healer and doesn't need another, or already has a tank, and doesn't need another. So it actually makes it easier for players to play together when they don't have to follow the typical mmo formula for success. Additionally, Every ship in star trek had a tractor beam, not just ships with a science officer with the "skill" to push the button labeled "tractor beam." Many "skills" should be hardware functions that are available on every ship. Guess what happened when captain janeway or picard ordered a volley of torpedoes fired. Did someone have to quickly solve a jigsaw puzzle? No, they pushed a button. Wooo... impressive skill. So, super sad, 2-torp volleys in cruisers and sci ships because ensigns are apparently too TRIBBLE to press the button labeled "5 torps please" is just... really.... super sad, and not-canon. Also, there really wasn't a "mine launcher" in any of the shows, the torpedo launcher could fire a volley directed at one target, a spread at several targets, or drop the torps like mines, or simply lay mines out of the torp tubes. I'd like torpedo launchers to have "commands" or "settings" kinda like a carrier has for its fighters, you can set it to 'spread' mode 'volley' mode, or if in the aft, 'mine' mode, depending on the situation, torp tubes were supposed to be versatile like that. So perhaps remove the one torp every 5-10 seconds and have the tube fire a volley/spread/lay mine spread every 15-20 seconds as you would if you had two copies of the "skill". Cannons should have spread mode or single target mode (single target mode would be like constant rapid fire), forget the "rapid fire" skill BS. Imagine if star trek ds9 actually went as it would in sto... sisko telling worf "rapid fire, mr. worf!... now rapid fire again!... and again!" Worf would go into a klingon rage and rip his head off. There was no, "fire the cannons, now I want you to REALLY fire the cannons!" I think "fire at will" should be a setting for beams like scatter volley would be a setting for cannons with the normal beam setting being "concentrated fire" or whatever. Beam overload could remain a skill, perhaps with a "cannon overload" as the cannon counterpart for a "burst damage" skill. If most of these "skills" were reverted to hardware functions/commands, I think many of the complaints would go away and the game would play more like fans of the show expect. Of course then they would have to make up ACTUAL skills for tac officers to have... (oh noes.)
Also, I'm of the opinion that all the ships should be essentially the same damage and tankability, simply with different play styles/methods of doing it. Cruisers just absorbing damage while being slower and less maneuverable (but not quite the quadruple amputee-turtles cruisers are now), while escorts and sci ships can take a respectable hit, but mostly evasion tank. How would the enterprise E tank a borg cube? It would just take the beating, how would voyager/defiant tank it? They would get in super close and try to avoid weapon ports and keep moving super quickly. I actually think cruisers should do the most outright damage, while escorts (and sci ships) use their maneuverability and speed/special skills/sensors to take advantage of enemy weaknesses. In fact, if they balanced the game so that tac team could be removed (or the shield distribution nerfed/replaced with some other awesome like a better damage boost) without obliterating us all, escorts/sci ships would have the advantage of using their speed and maneuverability to stay on a weak shield facing without the magic of tac team always making whatever facing is taking damage into the strongest facing.
I agree with all of this other than the whole business with tac team, it would never happen EVER because not only is it a major nerf to tanking (so cruisers would be hit HARD) but more importantly it would be a huge nerf to the devs precious escorts... which can never ever happen under any circumstances... not even if it cost them all the money they ever made... not gonna happen
So, I would propose making all weapons have the same damage but with increased shield penetration the smaller the firing arc. I.E. beam arrays would do as much damage as dual heavy cannons, but beam arrays might only have 10% shield penetration while dual heavy cannons have 30-40% penetration. That, or they could all do the same damage against shields but have higher hull damage based on the concentration of their firing arc. (I think the second idea would work out better for balance, particularly so sci ships wouldn't lose the advantage of their shields against escorts considering their low hull hp) I would also want all torps to have the same base damage and cool time, just each has it's own special flavor like quantums could do extra shield damage while chronitons slow, plasma give the plasma dot, transphasics partially bypass shields, etc. And... I dunno what special flavor to give photons. (suggestions?) I would have cruisers be more maneuverable, and a key difference I would make between escorts/sci and cruisers is that cruisers would significantly lose speed when turning (so they are just as fast in a straight line as escort/sci) while escorts/sci can keep going as fast as normal when turning, thus making them much faster/more maneuverable in combat for taking advantage of weaknesses and lining up of powers and whatnot while also maintaining their high evasion. Also escorts/sci would more quickly achieve their top speed while cruisers would take a few seconds to get going again due to their mass. Hmm... I think I'll leave it at that for now.
And on everything, other than the torp business, here I agree, personally I like the torps as they are I also think that of your shield penetration vs hull damage I prefer the extra hull damage although I think perhaps cannons should get hull damage and beams maybe hull breaches (causing a drop in crew and power levels)
I agree with all of this other than the whole business with tac team, it would never happen EVER because not only is it a major nerf to tanking (so cruisers would be hit HARD) but more importantly it would be a huge nerf to the devs precious escorts... which can never ever happen under any circumstances... not even if it cost them all the money they ever made... not gonna happen
I realize they probably wouldn't take it out, even though there was apparently some discussion about removing the shield distro or at least nerfing it in the past, but like I said, they would have to balance the game so that tac team isn't necessary. e.g. make shield values higher so that an escort doesn't tear through a facing in two seconds flat. Could also make it so manual shield distribution works as quickly as tac team, maybe even make it so when you tell the game to rout all power to a shield facing, it keeps doing that until you tell it to stop or balance the shield or rout power to a different facing. If the game were balanced so you don't need tac team distribution, which, to survive an escort, everyone NEEDS it, it wouldn't be a defense nerf to escorts or anyone else, and it wouldn't be a nerf if they replaced shield distribution with a damage or damage/manuverability/evasion buff... if we want to keep the defensive spirit of tac team it could grant just an evasion buff instead. so engineer heals hull, sci heals shields, and tac increases dodge to try and avoid some damage. Just throwing some ideas out there to try and give escorts/sci a bigger benefit to their speed and maneuverability other than just being able to get to a target faster/line up their forward 90 degree skills.
And on everything, other than the torp business, here I agree, personally I like the torps as they are I also think that of your shield penetration vs hull damage I prefer the extra hull damage although I think perhaps cannons should get hull damage and beams maybe hull breaches (causing a drop in crew and power levels)
I would prefer all torps be the same with different "flavors" as everyone pretty clearly favors quantum torpedoes. Few people use the other torps because the cools are longer and or the damage is weaker, and like we've been saying in this thread, the combat system is pretty much all about who can deal the most damage the fastest. That's why I'd rather all the torps be the same so that when you ask in zone "what torp should I use?" it's not always: "ALWAYS QUANTUM! NEVER ANYTHING ELSE! QUANTUM QUANTUM QUANTUM!" If the base hull damage is the same with the extra flavor (effect of the torp) then it really would open it up to a personal preference. And I just realized what photon torp could be, bonus hull damage. Photons could hit the hardest against unshielded targets where as the others have better effects to get some damage past the shield (transphasic/plasma)/reduce the shield (quantum)/turn&move debuff (chroniton). And I dunno about you, but I don't want my cool time/damage/torp spread/high yield to suck because I wanted to turn&speed debuff.
In regard to hull damage, it wouldn't make sense for cannons to do bonus hull damage and beams get hull breaches as hull damage is what causes breaches. I think it makes more sense for all the weapons to do the same high shield damage, but concentrated weapons like dual heavy cannons have the bonus once you're through the shields of doing much higher hull damage. Or we could go with the higher shield penetration I first suggested and sci/other escorts would need to use their high speed and maneuverability to stay out of the arcs of the cannons... which would give their speed and maneuverability more value... could maybe give sci 'advanced shields'(the excuse given for sci shields being so uber) an innate penetration reduction so that they don't pop from their low hull... either or. Either way, the point is to retain balance, if beam arrays have dual heavy damage with beam array arcs, no one would use dual heavy cannons, but if dual heavy cannons have a much higher shield penetration or much higher direct hull damage, that retains a reason for escorts to want to use them. It would also allow escorts to use more variety, they could have a mix of beam arrays and cannons (like the defiant had in the show) using beam arrays to have good shield damage from wider angles and then using the cannons to super pwn the hull. If the game designers were to make my suggested changes to the game, players would be able to fly a galaxy class without feeling like they have no teeth. (which isn't canon for the galaxy class to be floating target practice for escorts) Someone could recreate the weapon loadout of the defiant without everyone saying "NO! you should be all cannons/turrets with maybe one torp launcher!" I am certain it would make everyone much happier, including the escorts. My ideas don't make escorts any less awesome, my ideas are designed to make all the ships equally awesome just in different ways.
Another note: I think they should take the 20% reduction to plasma damage off the stf shields and make it a 20% resistance to borg weapons (the actual weapons of the borg, not the anti-borg stf weapons). By having it be a general plasma nerfer, they've pretty much removed plasma torps/plasma energy weapons as a viable weapon choice. I also think they should remove the destructible nature of high yield plasma torps/tricobalts, I mean the damn things are already so slow that it gives you plenty of time to brace/improve shields/whatever for the impact, making them so slow AND destructible pretty much means no one can use them unless they are at point blank range.
I realize they probably wouldn't take it out, even though there was apparently some discussion about removing the shield distro or at least nerfing it in the past, but like I said, they would have to balance the game so that tac team isn't necessary. e.g. make shield values higher so that an escort doesn't tear through a facing in two seconds flat. Could also make it so manual shield distribution works as quickly as tac team, maybe even make it so when you tell the game to rout all power to a shield facing, it keeps doing that until you tell it to stop or balance the shield or rout power to a different facing. If the game were balanced so you don't need tac team distribution, which, to survive an escort, everyone NEEDS it, it wouldn't be a defense nerf to escorts or anyone else, and it wouldn't be a nerf if they replaced shield distribution with a damage or damage/manuverability/evasion buff... if we want to keep the defensive spirit of tac team it could grant just an evasion buff instead. so engineer heals hull, sci heals shields, and tac increases dodge to try and avoid some damage. Just throwing some ideas out there to try and give escorts/sci a bigger benefit to their speed and maneuverability other than just being able to get to a target faster/line up their forward 90 degree skills.
Ok, I could see that working actually, I mean I don''t really see the point is manual redistribution of shields when TT does it about 50x faster (slight exaggeration but the point stands), if TT can do it that fast why can manual?
I would prefer all torps be the same with different "flavors" as everyone pretty clearly favors quantum torpedoes. Few people use the other torps because the cools are longer and or the damage is weaker, and like we've been saying in this thread, the combat system is pretty much all about who can deal the most damage the fastest. That's why I'd rather all the torps be the same so that when you ask in zone "what torp should I use?" it's not always: "ALWAYS QUANTUM! NEVER ANYTHING ELSE! QUANTUM QUANTUM QUANTUM!" If the base hull damage is the same with the extra flavor (effect of the torp) then it really would open it up to a personal preference. And I just realized what photon torp could be, bonus hull damage. Photons could hit the hardest against unshielded targets where as the others have better effects to get some damage past the shield (transphasic/plasma)/reduce the shield (quantum)/turn&move debuff (chroniton). And I dunno about you, but I don't want my cool time/damage/torp spread/high yield to suck because I wanted to turn&speed debuff.
That's ok... but it still eliminates the need for different types of torp if they all do the same damage everyone is still gonna use 1 type of torp, they don't get torps for the side-effect, they get torps for the damage
In regard to hull damage, it wouldn't make sense for cannons to do bonus hull damage and beams get hull breaches as hull damage is what causes breaches. I think it makes more sense for all the weapons to do the same high shield damage, but concentrated weapons like dual heavy cannons have the bonus once you're through the shields of doing much higher hull damage. Or we could go with the higher shield penetration I first suggested and sci/other escorts would need to use their high speed and maneuverability to stay out of the arcs of the cannons... which would give their speed and maneuverability more value... could maybe give sci 'advanced shields'(the excuse given for sci shields being so uber) an innate penetration reduction so that they don't pop from their low hull... either or. Either way, the point is to retain balance, if beam arrays have dual heavy damage with beam array arcs, no one would use dual heavy cannons, but if dual heavy cannons have a much higher shield penetration or much higher direct hull damage, that retains a reason for escorts to want to use them. It would also allow escorts to use more variety, they could have a mix of beam arrays and cannons (like the defiant had in the show) using beam arrays to have good shield damage from wider angles and then using the cannons to super pwn the hull. If the game designers were to make my suggested changes to the game, players would be able to fly a galaxy class without feeling like they have no teeth. (which isn't canon for the galaxy class to be floating target practice for escorts) Someone could recreate the weapon loadout of the defiant without everyone saying "NO! you should be all cannons/turrets with maybe one torp launcher!" I am certain it would make everyone much happier, including the escorts. My ideas don't make escorts any less awesome, my ideas are designed to make all the ships equally awesome just in different ways.
I was thinking the rapid fore of cannons would erode away at the hull of a ship rather than the more focused power of beams would have more chance of breaching a hull in a hit and as for people not using cannons because beams can do it with better arcs, Cannons would do still be more practical on an escort due to the weapon layout and model design.
Another note: I think they should take the 20% reduction to plasma damage off the stf shields and make it a 20% resistance to borg weapons (the actual weapons of the borg, not the anti-borg stf weapons). By having it be a general plasma nerfer, they've pretty much removed plasma torps/plasma energy weapons as a viable weapon choice. I also think they should remove the destructible nature of high yield plasma torps/tricobalts, I mean the damn things are already so slow that it gives you plenty of time to brace/improve shields/whatever for the impact, making them so slow AND destructible pretty much means no one can use them unless they are at point blank range.[/QUOTE]
I can see why you suggest the shield change although I think it's more work than the devs are willing to go through (although balancing in general is unless the PvP community cries about it) as for shooting torps down, I don't like the idea of getting hit by a lvl 3 high yield tricobalt
That's ok... but it still eliminates the need for different types of torp if they all do the same damage everyone is still gonna use 1 type of torp, they don't get torps for the side-effect, they get torps for the damage
That's my point, everyone only uses one type of torp because of damage which makes it boring, what's the point of the other torps if most people won't use them because of TRIBBLE damage? Make them all do the same damage with different special effects just like poloron and phasers do the same damage with different special effects and the variety of torps becomes much more beneficial and useable.
I was thinking the rapid fore of cannons would erode away at the hull of a ship rather than the more focused power of beams would have more chance of breaching a hull in a hit and as for people not using cannons because beams can do it with better arcs, Cannons would do still be more practical on an escort due to the weapon layout and model design.
Actually, with lasers, constant beams do more to heat/damage over time while q-switch (like cannon pulses) cause a "photo-acoustic" effect, basically kinetic damage, so it makes more sense for cannon pulses to do more hull damage than beams. But anyway, escorts only use cannons because of the ridiculous damage, not because they are the easiest weapon to keep on a target or better suited to the build of the ship. So if beam arrays did the same damage as dual heavy cannons, without giving the dual heavy cannons any special extra something, no one would use them. But I would also like to note that if beam arrays worked the way I propose, more people would be flying the Prometheus class as it was in the show with beams and torps instead of a bunch of defiant-wannabe cannon promies.
I can see why you suggest the shield change although I think it's more work than the devs are willing to go through (although balancing in general is unless the PvP community cries about it) as for shooting torps down, I don't like the idea of getting hit by a lvl 3 high yield tricobalt
Yes, but with how slow those things go, you have time to brace for impact, throw on hazards/aux to structural/other damage reducers/evasive manuvers to run away from it. So it really kinda defeats any benefit you get from having a tricobalt with the 60 second cool PLUS they are so slow, PLUS they pretty much always get shot down.
That's my point, everyone only uses one type of torp because of damage which makes it boring, what's the point of the other torps if most people won't use them because of TRIBBLE damage? Make them all do the same damage with different special effects just like poloron and phasers do the same damage with different special effects and the variety of torps becomes much more beneficial and useable.
Actually, with lasers, constant beams do more to heat/damage over time while q-switch (like cannon pulses) cause a "photo-acoustic" effect, basically kinetic damage, so it makes more sense for cannon pulses to do more hull damage than beams. But anyway, escorts only use cannons because of the ridiculous damage, not because they are the easiest weapon to keep on a target or better suited to the build of the ship. So if beam arrays did the same damage as dual heavy cannons, without giving the dual heavy cannons any special extra something, no one would use them. But I would also like to note that if beam arrays worked the way I propose, more people would be flying the Prometheus class as it was in the show with beams and torps instead of a bunch of defiant-wannabe cannon promies.
Yes, but with how slow those things go, you have time to brace for impact, throw on hazards/aux to structural/other damage reducers/evasive manuvers to run away from it. So it really kinda defeats any benefit you get from having a tricobalt with the 60 second cool PLUS they are so slow, PLUS they pretty much always get shot down.
Well yeah, they don't look like they've just been propelled from a torp tube... they look like you just dumped them out of an airlock or something so they could do with a little more speed but it already takes a good acc rating to hit on of them due to their high defence rating
That's my point, everyone only uses one type of torp because of damage which makes it boring, what's the point of the other torps if most people won't use them because of TRIBBLE damage? Make them all do the same damage with different special effects just like poloron and phasers do the same damage with different special effects and the variety of torps becomes much more beneficial and useable.
Agreed, the torp system does need an overhaul. Quantum's could have an extra damage proc, photon's could have a recharge reduction proc and the rest could just get a 33% chance of their current special happening as a proc.
I
Well yeah, they don't look like they've just been propelled from a torp tube... they look like you just dumped them out of an airlock or something so they could do with a little more speed but it already takes a good acc rating to hit on of them due to their high defence rating
Maybe I don't have that problem because I put points into the accuracy skill, but also, when you have fighters on intercept mode and several ships scatter volley/firing at will, those torps rarely make it to their target in pvp.
Which reminds me, I hate that high yield only actually works the way it's supposed to on plasma and tricobalt torpedoes. High yield on a quantum torp for example doesn't fire a "high yield" torp, it fires a volley of several torps. So I think torp tubes should have the spread, volley, and mine(if in the aft) settings as default, built-in, hardware functions, and keep torp high yield as a skill that would work the same for all torps. And I would change the effect of the skill so that when you pop the high yield skill, it would make all the torps in the volley/spread high yield i.e. each torp in the volley/spread go up in damage by 50% for level 1, 75% for level 2, and 100% for level 3. So with high yield 1, a volley that would normally fire 5 X 4k damage torps would fire 5 X 6k damage torps. But I think tricobalts could still fire one uber doom torp with high yield. It would probably be best to increase the cool time on high yield so it's more of a strategic uber weapon and not something you're popping constantly like people do nowadays. That would enable them to retain a "burst damage" skill for torps... which would be one less skill they have to replace with something else, so yay for them. So torp high yield would be kept, but work how it's supposed to, torp spread would be removed (as the torp tubes would have, volley, spread, or lay mines as built-in hardware settings) cannon rapid fire and spread would be removed (since those would be hardware functions built into the cannons) and could be replaced with cannon overload (the cannon version of beam overload) I think i would also make tactical bridge officer attack patterns into a toggle. If you click on attack pattern beta, it stays active until you turn it off/switch to attack pattern delta. I would make engineer auxiliary power to... whatever, into a toggle as well. If you are diverting auxiliary power to the structural integrity field, it provides a constant damage resistance buff until you turn it off/switch to another "auxiliary to" skill, which would be much more consistent with the show. You were using attack pattern beta until the captain ordered a different attack pattern, and no captain ever had to tell someone to divert auxiliary power to the structural integrity field twelve times during a battle. But then I'm starting to drift away from just how to fix cruisers into how to fix the entire game to make it proper trek... lol.
It amazes me how off topic you two have taken the thread. Hate to be a spoilsport, but I will tell you guys some things I have found out the hard way.
1). Escorts should never be compared to cruisers. They are their own ships with their own problems.
2). The game system will never be overhauled enough to bring cruisers back to their positions of glory and power that they deserve as the hearts of the fleet. To put this into perspective, look at how many cruiser improvement threads there have been. And compare that to how many things have actually changed on cruisers. And out of all of those threads, there have been good ideas, stupid ideas, troll ideas, and ideas that really should never have been even thought of but were put down. And after all this, guess what, no change.
3). Take away tac team, and you basically TRIBBLE cruisers. Need more be said.
4). Where did this damn torpedo discussion come from? That's not even remotely related to the intent of this thread.
And last but not least, THIS IS A GAME. You need to take certain aspects and make them into a "gaming mode". Like for example, your last post about attack patterns. I heard all the time Sisko, Riker, and Kirk telling their helmsman to use attack pattern this, evasive maneuvers that etc. So since that was not how you normally fly, you have something that can activate and have an effect. Also, because IT IS STILL A GAME, you will have class differences. As biteme pointed out, you make it so all classes can do the same thing(damage wise), you remove the variety in game. I mean hell if my cruiser could do the same damage as an escort, and still be tanky as hell, then why would I ever fly anything else? There is a reason that the roles are as is, and there is a reason that they did that. And I hate it, but I am playing anyways.
I see good points brought up by you guys in the last few posts (albeit a few of them VERY off topic), and I can agree with many of them. But be realistic. The only ideas that have a snowballs chance in hell of actually being implemented (and that's being optimistic) are maybe the slight turn buff to cruisers and battlecruisers, and MAYBE a slight alteration of beam arrays to make them a tad more powerful (maybe a 5 or 10% increase in overall damage output).
But in the end, it will always come down to this:
Tactical Captains in Escorts will do the most damage. Period. The smart ones will always be difficult to destroy. Period. However these players have put in time and effort to figure out how to be nasty little ships that can kill things and still survive. So give them credit for actually doing that, and don't gimp them because we can't keep up.
Engineering Captains will be able to survive pretty well. That's a given. We have the tankiest native ships (hull-wise). But we sacrifice damage to do it. A well built cruiser in the hands of an engineer will never die. That's a given. I have seen it. Granted they never kill anything, but that's not their job. They will NEVER die. My AC has proven that point over and over again. This is not the tankiest cruiser for it's tier (that goes to Star Cruiser, or the "Shovel") but if I go to pure defense and focus on heals and regens for my shields, my ship never dies. Ever. My dps is usually cut in half, but I always live. That's our job. Look pretty and heal things. *throws up in a quiet corner*
Science Captains will always be tanky and always be mind-fkers. They have the best shield modifiers on their native ships. They have the best heals and disrupts on their native ships. The unfortunate part is that their disrupts got nerfed, but hey, gravity well is still very aesthetically pleasing and also VERY effective if used right, as is almost any science ability. And if you have a ship like an Orb Weaver or Recluse, you will never die. Ever. IF you play it right. You can heal, mind-fk, and eventually kill a majorly derped target (or used to, not so sure now).
So in the end, we gotta come to terms with the fact that Escorts have the highest damage potential. That's their job. They sacrificed health and durability to get that job. Cruisers have the highest survivability. That's their job. They sacrificed maneuverability and firepower to get that job. Science Ships have the best mind-fks and shields. That's their job. They sacrificed two weapons and durability to get that job. Carriers are just mean so they don't count lol...
So as much as I feel the game doesn't follow canon, and is imbalanced, it's more you just gotta stop trying what isn't going to work. I stopped trying to be a huge damage dealer with my cruiser. I'm a bloody engineer. It's not going to work. Instead I focused on what I was supposed to do, and things have been going a mite more smoothly since. I want to hit hard, and kill things. But at the same time I want to tank and be useful. As meimetoo pointed out, you can't have it all. So I make do with what I got.
There is room for improvement, don't get me wrong, as I said, our space whales could use a little more swing to get our fat rears goin, and our little ticklers could at the least become bruisers. But as was stated many times before now, that's never going to happen. The devs may not care, they may not see the need, or they might not see what we do. Regardless of that, nothing has happened in two years to make cruisers better, and from what I have seen, they actually haven't changed much since launch. Maybe a little more hull, maybe a slight change here and there (probably visually), but they are like PvP. Static.
Get used to it. Cruisers are seemingly useless. Courtesy of how PvE is so damage oriented. Until that changes and their roles as tanks/healers/support are actually NEEDED, not nice to have, but a must have, they will remain that way.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Cruisers are seemingly useless. Courtesy of how PvE is so damage oriented. Until that changes and their roles as tanks/healers/support are actually NEEDED, not nice to have, but a must have, they will remain that way.
"NEEDED, not nice to have" sorry but cruisers aren't even desired, anything we can do for an STF an escort can do as well! "nice to have"... When I play my escort and I look at the poor cruiser behind me and I'm thinking: 'I feel so sorry for you because you have so little to add here' THAT'S NOT RIGHT! I should be thoroughly happy he's there!
But like you said, they don't care, of course if the PvP lot cared... well that's a different story, one I can only dream of.
It amazes me how off topic you two have taken the thread. Hate to be a spoilsport, but I will tell you guys some things I have found out the hard way.
...
Regardless of that, nothing has happened in two years to make cruisers better, and from what I have seen, they actually haven't changed much since launch. Maybe a little more hull, maybe a slight change here and there (probably visually), but they are like PvP. Static.
Get used to it. Cruisers are seemingly useless. Courtesy of how PvE is so damage oriented. Until that changes and their roles as tanks/healers/support are actually NEEDED, not nice to have, but a must have, they will remain that way.
Everything you said is absolutely right from a gameplay point of view. And even for me it would be perfectly OK if STO would be a generic Sci Fi game, but it isn't.
It's a Star Trek game and people have certain expectations they wouldn't have if it where just a "normal" sci fi game.
When it comes to ships, our "Space whales" (how dismissive for both, the real for the "real" whales and Trek ships btw.) is what make this universe differ from generic Sci Fi universes, people expect other "laws" of ship mechanic as if this where a Star Wars or Battlestar Galactica type of game.
Big and smaller Cruisers (STOs Cruisers and Science ships) are the major spacefaring ships. Escorts are stripped down Starships with the single purpose of defend or attack something. They where smaller, faster and more easie to maintain than huge ships like a Nebula Class. But they wheren't more powerful than these ships.
On the other hand, the playerbase of an MMO expects all "classes" to be equal (also a form of communism @ US citizens ). Especially since this is a Star Trek game "balancing" those ships seems to be very difficult, well actually it isn't, if cryptic wouldn't have used the lamest of the lame stone/paper/scissor MMO mechanic in the first place. This system and Star Trek ships are incompatible to understate it.
Obviously their goal was to attract the average MMO player so they didn't want to confuse them in creating a more appropriate ship balancing mechanic.
As i said i wouldn't have any problem if this where just a normal/generic Sci fi game, the classification of Cruisers being the "tank", science the "Wizard" and Escorts being the "damage Dealer", would be perfectly ok and their equality would be perfectly ok.
I never saw Cruisers or Science ships as support ships for escorts, providing them with healing or other things. That's not how ships in Star Trek work, they ALL are able to "heal" themselves, transferring healing is just a weird idea in my opinion. This isn't a fantasy game where clerics heal everyone else, these are Starships. Thats where my problem with this game lies.
But the devs didn't even make their "own" game balanced, instead they made Escorts the most powerful and dominating ships so everyone has to ask himself "why flying something else?".
In capable hands (we have to act on this assumption) every ship has enough survivability to be able to survive almost ANY situation in this game. Please don't missunderstand me now, i am perfectly OK with ships being able to
take care of themselves. I like it much more than seeing the most iconic Star Trek ships degraded to Healer dutys for ships that don't really belong to Star Trek imo.
Science ships are (in theory) able to contribute their wizard - like powers to space battles. But the original job of a Cruiser in this game (fortunately) isn't needed anymore.
What i would like to see is a reappraisal of cruisers in this game. In my opinion their task should be to provide Heavy firepower, but they shouldn't be as fast and maneuverable as Escorts of course. Their survivability should be lowered to be more on par with the other shipclasses and their Firepower should be increased at the same time. On the other hand Escorts should get a bit more survivability and a bit less Firepower. But keeping both ships still different in handling and
operation.
My point is that the gap between Escorts and Cruisers shouldn't be as big anymore, both ship types main task would be to kill enemy ships just using other means.
So the difficulty would be to balance firepower and survivability to the point where cruisers aren't the flying bricks with no function anymore. I think ships like the Regent and the Galor are a step into that direction, to veer away from being the main healerships with virtually no noticeable offensive capabilities. Maybe giving them less hull and increasing their tactical BOFF slot or consoles could be a way to solve this dilemma.
Sometimes i wish STO wouldn't be a Trek game at all, to be honest.
Thank you for reading or ignoring, depending on who you are.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Engineering Captains will be able to survive pretty well. That's a given. We have the tankiest native ships (hull-wise). But we sacrifice damage to do it. Granted they never kill anything, but that's not their job. They will NEVER die. My AC has proven that point over and over again. This is not the tankiest cruiser for it's tier (that goes to Star Cruiser, or the "Shovel") but if I go to pure defense and focus on heals and regens for my shields, my ship never dies. Ever.
Excellent points across the board 100% agreed with the exception of the following...
I would not be so quick to say Cruisers do not have the task to "kill". In every ST episode most of the time it was a Cruiser inflicting the damage (with the exception of DS9). Would the Federation would send a plethora of Cruisers up against the Borg in Wolf 359 if they were not meant to kill???
Additionally, what good is a Cruiser for PvP? Unless you spend 100% of your ST gaming experience playing PvE (very boring, imo). In a Cruiser....it's highly doubtful that many Engineering Captains will find it possible to survive in PvP. Please understand I'm not trying to insult you, or, anyone who is an Engineering Captain that flys a Cruiser. I used to have an Eng toon in a Cruiser. I was faced with the choice of quitting the game, or, making a Tac Captain. I chose to do the latter.
Cruisers should only have to sacrifice 1 or the other. Turning, or Weapons Power, but NOT BOTH. By sacrificing both, the Engineers in Cruisers just end up castrated in their inability to inflict damage or kill off an opponent. Getting to pick 1 or the other would NOT make them overpowered, but it would make the game a LOT more fun to play, not to mention more balanced.
Yeah, well, no wonder you complain about cruisers doing too little DPS.
Now, two things can happen, in order of likelihood:
1) I get flamed again by the fanbois.
2) Or, you start having a hard and long look at how you fit, and realize thay maybe you're not the greatest fitter, after all. Like I said, I was surprised, really; because you speak with such authority in this thread, that I kinda assumed you knew how to fit a cruiser properly. Apparently not.
I even brushed over some of your other cruiser setups in this thread; and stumbled upon this:
BOff Setup:
Lt. Tac: TS1, BFAWII
Ensign Tac: TT1
Cmdr Engi: EPtS1, EPtW2, ET3, AuxtSIFIII (going to modify that)
LtCmdr Engi: EPtA1, EPtE2, EPtS3 (again, going to modify that)
Lt Sci: HE1, TB2 (probably going to modify that as well)
DOff:
Conn Officer (tt reducer)x2 [very rare]
Technician [very rare]
(whatever the DOff is that reduces cds on EPtX) x2 [very rare]
You have no less than 5 (!) EPtX skills divided over 2 eng boffs!! Hello Kitty?! And even your suggested 'fix' still makes this utter fail, as the reduced cooldown will only ever work between max 2 copies of a skill (or skill-branch). Like between EPtS1 and EPtW2: press EPtS1, and EPtW will be available faster (with all other EPtX skils on same timer as the latter). So, 3 out of 5 of these EPtX skills remain unused all the time!
And what do your fanboi minions reply?
"Congratulations. Thats a totally viable build."
LOL. Am I the truly the only one willing to say the Emperor is not wearing any clothes?! Seriously, you peeps amuse me. As irony would have it, cruisers actually *may* need a buff; but a viable cruiser starts with a viable pilot. Maybe you should start with the latter?
I never saw Cruisers or Science ships as support ships for escorts, providing them with healing or other things. That's not how ships in Star Trek work, they ALL are able to "heal" themselves, transferring healing is just a weird idea in my opinion.
Not so weird, really. Ever heard of 'spider-tanking'? There are new doffs now (for Extend Shield) that buff yourself too. Put these on each other, and you're both are as good as untakeable. We used to do that in EVE all the time. It rules.
What i would like to see is a reappraisal of cruisers in this game. In my opinion their task should be to provide Heavy firepower, but they shouldn't be as fast and maneuverable as Escorts of course.
In EVE they solved this perfectly. Battleships, for instance, can fire high-DPS cruise missiles; they do a crapload of damage, but can't hit smaller targets for ****. Likewise, a (small) frigate can't output as much DPS, but hits small targets with great precision.
Maybe STO needs something like that too: have cruisers do high DPS (but at reduced accuracy), so they can hit the big targets (gates, heavy marauders, etc), and have escorts be accurate, but do less DPS. That way you kinda need each other again.
I agree that escorts can be OPed, I was dueling one yesterday, a defiant retrofit to be exact, and well, after I told my opponent to go "all out", he did his subspace jump and unleashed his fury behind me and well, I had 97% health and full sheilds, and I was gone in seconds. Cruisers need swords.
I agree that escorts can be OPed, I was dueling one yesterday, a defiant retrofit to be exact, and well, after I told my opponent to go "all out", he did his subspace jump and unleashed his fury behind me and well, I had 97% health and full sheilds, and I was gone in seconds. Cruisers need swords.
Yup, subspace jumper can ruin your day. There you are, proudly having your Tact Teams buffing your front facing; and you're bravely hanging in there. Then suddenly, wham! From behind your foe suddenly shows up, blasting you at your (now as good as depleted) rear facing.
^^ N.B. To those in this thread (wrongly) crying for a nerf to TT, see? There are always ways around an obstacle. Most will either want a buff for themselves, or scream foul and want the other guy nerfed. And few there be that just play smarter. Q.E.D.
I agree that escorts can be OPed, I was dueling one yesterday, a defiant retrofit to be exact, and well, after I told my opponent to go "all out", he did his subspace jump and unleashed his fury behind me and well, I had 97% health and full sheilds, and I was gone in seconds. Cruisers need swords.
Did you have EPTS up at all? How about TT? You told what is possibly the most frontloaded (spike) dps ship the feds have, piloted by someone that pvps (few pvers have the jump console) to "go all out" and ou're surprised? What gear are you using? where you standing still? Your anecdote says nothing.
Did you have EPTS up at all? How about TT? You told what is possibly the most frontloaded (spike) dps ship the feds have, piloted by someone that pvps (few pvers have the jump console) to "go all out" and ou're surprised? What gear are you using? where you standing still? Your anecdote says nothing.
But the 64 dollar ? is....., "Would it really matter anyway?"
I run EptS 1 and 2, macro-ed so they are always up (shield power on full weapon power is never below 95), along with TSS 2, with the maco Mk 12 sheild that cuts % of off damage there supposedly also. And, a good escort, fleet def-R or the bug, can run thru my shields in a matter of seconds. And then even if the sheilds hold, for some ungodly reason, the new PVP FOTM, DEM, cuts that to hull tanking.
To be honest, I'm not even sure that hull resists are even working now or at least working as they used to. I'm running 40s with the excel which basicly equates to almost absolutly nothing in gameplay against all this DPS.
There has been WAY too many DPS adds while "tanking/healing" skills have found the Cryptic NERF bat. But, not to worry, that's not likely to CHANGE. DPS and P2W sells in the store so that is pretty safe for all who want it that way.
Comments
Answer for about 90%? O.
Some people are not looking for balance but want to keep the status quo as they like being on top. Doesn't really matter what these guys are saying as the developers have the final say. They are supposed to have the metrics available to make a good decision. But, way too aften, it is players that have to explain the math and the mechanics to these developers. Seen it a hundred times or more in just the PVP forums.
This is what happens when you don't bother to actualy play your own game, all your thinking about is what will sell in the store, or the next version of whatever you can throw in a lock-box.
Well that's how games are. And yes, there are DPS cruiser builds that work, I like to think mine is ok in that respect. The only catch here is that many cruiser pilots want to do more damage than they do, even with dps builds that work, since a lot of them have also flown escorts and they want to be able to do that damage output.
I know that's not possible, which is why I never really wanted that. But at the same time, I still want a little more damage without having to sacrifice too much tankiness, which is unfair on my part. However I can see this, which is why I am kinda backin off, since you are right biteme, you have to give and take. And if I want to keep my tankiness, I have to give up damage. And in all honesty I always preferred survivability over damage output.
That's not limited to just this game lol... In League of Legends I usually play tank. Lots of hp armor and MR, but not a lot of damage output. But plenty of disrupt ability. In BSGO I play a line, lots of health and armor, good weapons, but not geared towards much other than staying alive.
That being said and totally off topic, I understand (now anyways), as meimetoo put it, that you "can't have it all". Which sucks, but hey, that's life lol...
Your builds are not that bad at all. I have gotten several ideas from yours and Mav's myself.
However, there is NO counter to all the DPS adds that have wormed their way into STO since F2P and that's what most crusier pilots are asking for as we're the ones who supposedly "tank". Altho I did see in guild chat a new P2L (pay-to-live) console that adds like 300% defense that some1 pulled out of the latest version of the lock-boxes.
R.I.P
R.I.P
I have the 4 fsms burning a hole in my bank right now lol...
The DHC level damage was my idea, but I compensated for it by lowering the firing rate significantly to reduce it's overall dps but still have high base damage to give better BO potential, which was the idea behind it originally. In fact, if you look at how I designed it, it was actually a trick design. I gave it higher base damage but lowered the firing rate to the point that the actual DPS was almost unchanged.
However the increased base damage gave it higher BO potential, and also made BFAW also a mite more dangerous (original intent behind both). And the fed only wall was originally because the KDF bcs could use DHCs, until I came to realize what you said earlier, which is most of them run beams anyways... so I now retract that and say give it to both sides.
But there is one thing I would do to make it more fair. I would restrict the energy types that these "Heavy Beam Arrays" would be. I would limit them to Disruptor and Phaser only. Before someone blows a gasket, let me explain. This would be a specialty weapon specifically designed by the KDF engineers and SCoE, so naturally they would use their pre-existing specialties, KDF with their disruptors, and Starfleet and their phasers.
As for a beam rapid fire? Hell I'd back that. Sounds fun actually. Let's replicate what the D did on many occasions lol.
And I agree with your final comment. Boosting damage without any drawbacks due to the inherent tankiness that cruisers already have is bad juju. So what would you say we should give up in exchange?
P.S. I was thinking about all the times I heard fire at will on the show, and that resulted in EVERYTHING getting fired, phasers, torps, the kitchen sink. So I was thinking make a captain ability to do just that. Can only be activated under X% hull. For the next X number of seconds all weapons gain X boost to their firing rates with X boost to crit chance and severity (desperation damage). 5 min cd (like the team bonuses).
That's a refreshing perspective. I never really thought about it like that. I would certainly support that if the Devs attempted to re-work the game from that particular aspect so all types of ships made sense and had a bonafide purpose/niche.
Sounds like Go Down Fighting to me. :eek:
To increase your turn add a couple of RCS consoles, & a couple of copies of Aux2Id. As well as maxing out the maneuverability trait when you respec. Another thing you can do is increase your engine power setting, especially if you are running an engine that is more efficient at a higher power setting( like the Borg one.) Higher engine power also makes you harder to hit as well.
R.I.P
Then I shall be sure to live it up in mine to make up for you not being able to.
Ok you can have that, but you can't have our smoothie machine. That's fed cruiser only.
Actually the idea would be to run 8 Heavy Beam Arrays. As I said, there won't be a huge increase in DPS due to firing rate, and that way you can have consistent fire. Hm... I just thought of something... the lower firing rate would actually make them far more powerful since that would be greatly reduced power drain... Since they do have the same drain as standard BAs... Something I guess for the devs to balance out then.
^ Like
Yeah, that's what I was figuring. Cuz the way I see it, why not fire everything you've got and then as your last act in this universe ram them? I always wanted to do that, go down in a massive blaze of phasers and torpedos followed by the ultimate sacrifice to make sure that damn probe died XD.
I also firmly believe that all the ships should be reasonably balanced. I don't like the typical mmo "tank/healer/dd" trifecta being applied to star trek. And I think the argument that you "need" that system to inspire cooperation is stupid. If it takes 5 ships to take out a tac cube, then people will have to work together, no matter how independent they otherwise might be. Also, anyone familiar with the tank/dd/healer system knows that the system can actually make it harder to cooperate because a group already has a healer and doesn't need another, or already has a tank, and doesn't need another. So it actually makes it easier for players to play together when they don't have to follow the typical mmo formula for success. Additionally, Every ship in star trek had a tractor beam, not just ships with a science officer with the "skill" to push the button labeled "tractor beam." Many "skills" should be hardware functions that are available on every ship. Guess what happened when captain janeway or picard ordered a volley of torpedoes fired. Did someone have to quickly solve a jigsaw puzzle? No, they pushed a button. Wooo... impressive skill. So, super sad, 2-torp volleys in cruisers and sci ships because ensigns are apparently too TRIBBLE to press the button labeled "5 torps please" is just... really.... super sad, and not-canon. Also, there really wasn't a "mine launcher" in any of the shows, the torpedo launcher could fire a volley directed at one target, a spread at several targets, or drop the torps like mines, or simply lay mines out of the torp tubes. I'd like torpedo launchers to have "commands" or "settings" kinda like a carrier has for its fighters, you can set it to 'spread' mode 'volley' mode, or if in the aft, 'mine' mode, depending on the situation, torp tubes were supposed to be versatile like that. So perhaps remove the one torp every 5-10 seconds and have the tube fire a volley/spread/lay mine spread every 15-20 seconds as you would if you had two copies of the "skill". Cannons should have spread mode or single target mode (single target mode would be like constant rapid fire), forget the "rapid fire" skill BS. Imagine if star trek ds9 actually went as it would in sto... sisko telling worf "rapid fire, mr. worf!... now rapid fire again!... and again!" Worf would go into a klingon rage and rip his head off. There was no, "fire the cannons, now I want you to REALLY fire the cannons!" I think "fire at will" should be a setting for beams like scatter volley would be a setting for cannons with the normal beam setting being "concentrated fire" or whatever. Beam overload could remain a skill, perhaps with a "cannon overload" as the cannon counterpart for a "burst damage" skill. If most of these "skills" were reverted to hardware functions/commands, I think many of the complaints would go away and the game would play more like fans of the show expect. Of course then they would have to make up ACTUAL skills for tac officers to have... (oh noes.)
Also, I'm of the opinion that all the ships should be essentially the same damage and tankability, simply with different play styles/methods of doing it. Cruisers just absorbing damage while being slower and less maneuverable (but not quite the quadruple amputee-turtles cruisers are now), while escorts and sci ships can take a respectable hit, but mostly evasion tank. How would the enterprise E tank a borg cube? It would just take the beating, how would voyager/defiant tank it? They would get in super close and try to avoid weapon ports and keep moving super quickly. I actually think cruisers should do the most outright damage, while escorts (and sci ships) use their maneuverability and speed/special skills/sensors to take advantage of enemy weaknesses. In fact, if they balanced the game so that tac team could be removed (or the shield distribution nerfed/replaced with some other awesome like a better damage boost) without obliterating us all, escorts/sci ships would have the advantage of using their speed and maneuverability to stay on a weak shield facing without the magic of tac team always making whatever facing is taking damage into the strongest facing.
So, I would propose making all weapons have the same damage but with increased shield penetration the smaller the firing arc. I.E. beam arrays would do as much damage as dual heavy cannons, but beam arrays might only have 10% shield penetration while dual heavy cannons have 30-40% penetration. That, or they could all do the same damage against shields but have higher hull damage based on the concentration of their firing arc. (I think the second idea would work out better for balance, particularly so sci ships wouldn't lose the advantage of their shields against escorts considering their low hull hp) I would also want all torps to have the same base damage and cool time, just each has it's own special flavor like quantums could do extra shield damage while chronitons slow, plasma give the plasma dot, transphasics partially bypass shields, etc. And... I dunno what special flavor to give photons. (suggestions?) I would have cruisers be more maneuverable, and a key difference I would make between escorts/sci and cruisers is that cruisers would significantly lose speed when turning (so they are just as fast in a straight line as escort/sci) while escorts/sci can keep going as fast as normal when turning, thus making them much faster/more maneuverable in combat for taking advantage of weaknesses and lining up of powers and whatnot while also maintaining their high evasion. Also escorts/sci would more quickly achieve their top speed while cruisers would take a few seconds to get going again due to their mass. Hmm... I think I'll leave it at that for now.
I agree entirely
Also agree 100%
I agree with all of this other than the whole business with tac team, it would never happen EVER because not only is it a major nerf to tanking (so cruisers would be hit HARD) but more importantly it would be a huge nerf to the devs precious escorts... which can never ever happen under any circumstances... not even if it cost them all the money they ever made... not gonna happen
And on everything, other than the torp business, here I agree, personally I like the torps as they are I also think that of your shield penetration vs hull damage I prefer the extra hull damage although I think perhaps cannons should get hull damage and beams maybe hull breaches (causing a drop in crew and power levels)
I realize they probably wouldn't take it out, even though there was apparently some discussion about removing the shield distro or at least nerfing it in the past, but like I said, they would have to balance the game so that tac team isn't necessary. e.g. make shield values higher so that an escort doesn't tear through a facing in two seconds flat. Could also make it so manual shield distribution works as quickly as tac team, maybe even make it so when you tell the game to rout all power to a shield facing, it keeps doing that until you tell it to stop or balance the shield or rout power to a different facing. If the game were balanced so you don't need tac team distribution, which, to survive an escort, everyone NEEDS it, it wouldn't be a defense nerf to escorts or anyone else, and it wouldn't be a nerf if they replaced shield distribution with a damage or damage/manuverability/evasion buff... if we want to keep the defensive spirit of tac team it could grant just an evasion buff instead. so engineer heals hull, sci heals shields, and tac increases dodge to try and avoid some damage. Just throwing some ideas out there to try and give escorts/sci a bigger benefit to their speed and maneuverability other than just being able to get to a target faster/line up their forward 90 degree skills.
I would prefer all torps be the same with different "flavors" as everyone pretty clearly favors quantum torpedoes. Few people use the other torps because the cools are longer and or the damage is weaker, and like we've been saying in this thread, the combat system is pretty much all about who can deal the most damage the fastest. That's why I'd rather all the torps be the same so that when you ask in zone "what torp should I use?" it's not always: "ALWAYS QUANTUM! NEVER ANYTHING ELSE! QUANTUM QUANTUM QUANTUM!" If the base hull damage is the same with the extra flavor (effect of the torp) then it really would open it up to a personal preference. And I just realized what photon torp could be, bonus hull damage. Photons could hit the hardest against unshielded targets where as the others have better effects to get some damage past the shield (transphasic/plasma)/reduce the shield (quantum)/turn&move debuff (chroniton). And I dunno about you, but I don't want my cool time/damage/torp spread/high yield to suck because I wanted to turn&speed debuff.
In regard to hull damage, it wouldn't make sense for cannons to do bonus hull damage and beams get hull breaches as hull damage is what causes breaches. I think it makes more sense for all the weapons to do the same high shield damage, but concentrated weapons like dual heavy cannons have the bonus once you're through the shields of doing much higher hull damage. Or we could go with the higher shield penetration I first suggested and sci/other escorts would need to use their high speed and maneuverability to stay out of the arcs of the cannons... which would give their speed and maneuverability more value... could maybe give sci 'advanced shields'(the excuse given for sci shields being so uber) an innate penetration reduction so that they don't pop from their low hull... either or. Either way, the point is to retain balance, if beam arrays have dual heavy damage with beam array arcs, no one would use dual heavy cannons, but if dual heavy cannons have a much higher shield penetration or much higher direct hull damage, that retains a reason for escorts to want to use them. It would also allow escorts to use more variety, they could have a mix of beam arrays and cannons (like the defiant had in the show) using beam arrays to have good shield damage from wider angles and then using the cannons to super pwn the hull. If the game designers were to make my suggested changes to the game, players would be able to fly a galaxy class without feeling like they have no teeth. (which isn't canon for the galaxy class to be floating target practice for escorts) Someone could recreate the weapon loadout of the defiant without everyone saying "NO! you should be all cannons/turrets with maybe one torp launcher!" I am certain it would make everyone much happier, including the escorts. My ideas don't make escorts any less awesome, my ideas are designed to make all the ships equally awesome just in different ways.
Another note: I think they should take the 20% reduction to plasma damage off the stf shields and make it a 20% resistance to borg weapons (the actual weapons of the borg, not the anti-borg stf weapons). By having it be a general plasma nerfer, they've pretty much removed plasma torps/plasma energy weapons as a viable weapon choice. I also think they should remove the destructible nature of high yield plasma torps/tricobalts, I mean the damn things are already so slow that it gives you plenty of time to brace/improve shields/whatever for the impact, making them so slow AND destructible pretty much means no one can use them unless they are at point blank range.
Ok, I could see that working actually, I mean I don''t really see the point is manual redistribution of shields when TT does it about 50x faster (slight exaggeration but the point stands), if TT can do it that fast why can manual?
That's ok... but it still eliminates the need for different types of torp if they all do the same damage everyone is still gonna use 1 type of torp, they don't get torps for the side-effect, they get torps for the damage
I was thinking the rapid fore of cannons would erode away at the hull of a ship rather than the more focused power of beams would have more chance of breaching a hull in a hit and as for people not using cannons because beams can do it with better arcs, Cannons would do still be more practical on an escort due to the weapon layout and model design.
Another note: I think they should take the 20% reduction to plasma damage off the stf shields and make it a 20% resistance to borg weapons (the actual weapons of the borg, not the anti-borg stf weapons). By having it be a general plasma nerfer, they've pretty much removed plasma torps/plasma energy weapons as a viable weapon choice. I also think they should remove the destructible nature of high yield plasma torps/tricobalts, I mean the damn things are already so slow that it gives you plenty of time to brace/improve shields/whatever for the impact, making them so slow AND destructible pretty much means no one can use them unless they are at point blank range.[/QUOTE]
I can see why you suggest the shield change although I think it's more work than the devs are willing to go through (although balancing in general is unless the PvP community cries about it) as for shooting torps down, I don't like the idea of getting hit by a lvl 3 high yield tricobalt
That's my point, everyone only uses one type of torp because of damage which makes it boring, what's the point of the other torps if most people won't use them because of TRIBBLE damage? Make them all do the same damage with different special effects just like poloron and phasers do the same damage with different special effects and the variety of torps becomes much more beneficial and useable.
Actually, with lasers, constant beams do more to heat/damage over time while q-switch (like cannon pulses) cause a "photo-acoustic" effect, basically kinetic damage, so it makes more sense for cannon pulses to do more hull damage than beams. But anyway, escorts only use cannons because of the ridiculous damage, not because they are the easiest weapon to keep on a target or better suited to the build of the ship. So if beam arrays did the same damage as dual heavy cannons, without giving the dual heavy cannons any special extra something, no one would use them. But I would also like to note that if beam arrays worked the way I propose, more people would be flying the Prometheus class as it was in the show with beams and torps instead of a bunch of defiant-wannabe cannon promies.
Yes, but with how slow those things go, you have time to brace for impact, throw on hazards/aux to structural/other damage reducers/evasive manuvers to run away from it. So it really kinda defeats any benefit you get from having a tricobalt with the 60 second cool PLUS they are so slow, PLUS they pretty much always get shot down.
I'll give you that one
Seconded
Well yeah, they don't look like they've just been propelled from a torp tube... they look like you just dumped them out of an airlock or something so they could do with a little more speed but it already takes a good acc rating to hit on of them due to their high defence rating
Agreed, the torp system does need an overhaul. Quantum's could have an extra damage proc, photon's could have a recharge reduction proc and the rest could just get a 33% chance of their current special happening as a proc.
Maybe I don't have that problem because I put points into the accuracy skill, but also, when you have fighters on intercept mode and several ships scatter volley/firing at will, those torps rarely make it to their target in pvp.
Which reminds me, I hate that high yield only actually works the way it's supposed to on plasma and tricobalt torpedoes. High yield on a quantum torp for example doesn't fire a "high yield" torp, it fires a volley of several torps. So I think torp tubes should have the spread, volley, and mine(if in the aft) settings as default, built-in, hardware functions, and keep torp high yield as a skill that would work the same for all torps. And I would change the effect of the skill so that when you pop the high yield skill, it would make all the torps in the volley/spread high yield i.e. each torp in the volley/spread go up in damage by 50% for level 1, 75% for level 2, and 100% for level 3. So with high yield 1, a volley that would normally fire 5 X 4k damage torps would fire 5 X 6k damage torps. But I think tricobalts could still fire one uber doom torp with high yield. It would probably be best to increase the cool time on high yield so it's more of a strategic uber weapon and not something you're popping constantly like people do nowadays. That would enable them to retain a "burst damage" skill for torps... which would be one less skill they have to replace with something else, so yay for them. So torp high yield would be kept, but work how it's supposed to, torp spread would be removed (as the torp tubes would have, volley, spread, or lay mines as built-in hardware settings) cannon rapid fire and spread would be removed (since those would be hardware functions built into the cannons) and could be replaced with cannon overload (the cannon version of beam overload) I think i would also make tactical bridge officer attack patterns into a toggle. If you click on attack pattern beta, it stays active until you turn it off/switch to attack pattern delta. I would make engineer auxiliary power to... whatever, into a toggle as well. If you are diverting auxiliary power to the structural integrity field, it provides a constant damage resistance buff until you turn it off/switch to another "auxiliary to" skill, which would be much more consistent with the show. You were using attack pattern beta until the captain ordered a different attack pattern, and no captain ever had to tell someone to divert auxiliary power to the structural integrity field twelve times during a battle. But then I'm starting to drift away from just how to fix cruisers into how to fix the entire game to make it proper trek... lol.
1). Escorts should never be compared to cruisers. They are their own ships with their own problems.
2). The game system will never be overhauled enough to bring cruisers back to their positions of glory and power that they deserve as the hearts of the fleet. To put this into perspective, look at how many cruiser improvement threads there have been. And compare that to how many things have actually changed on cruisers. And out of all of those threads, there have been good ideas, stupid ideas, troll ideas, and ideas that really should never have been even thought of but were put down. And after all this, guess what, no change.
3). Take away tac team, and you basically TRIBBLE cruisers. Need more be said.
4). Where did this damn torpedo discussion come from? That's not even remotely related to the intent of this thread.
And last but not least, THIS IS A GAME. You need to take certain aspects and make them into a "gaming mode". Like for example, your last post about attack patterns. I heard all the time Sisko, Riker, and Kirk telling their helmsman to use attack pattern this, evasive maneuvers that etc. So since that was not how you normally fly, you have something that can activate and have an effect. Also, because IT IS STILL A GAME, you will have class differences. As biteme pointed out, you make it so all classes can do the same thing(damage wise), you remove the variety in game. I mean hell if my cruiser could do the same damage as an escort, and still be tanky as hell, then why would I ever fly anything else? There is a reason that the roles are as is, and there is a reason that they did that. And I hate it, but I am playing anyways.
I see good points brought up by you guys in the last few posts (albeit a few of them VERY off topic), and I can agree with many of them. But be realistic. The only ideas that have a snowballs chance in hell of actually being implemented (and that's being optimistic) are maybe the slight turn buff to cruisers and battlecruisers, and MAYBE a slight alteration of beam arrays to make them a tad more powerful (maybe a 5 or 10% increase in overall damage output).
But in the end, it will always come down to this:
Tactical Captains in Escorts will do the most damage. Period. The smart ones will always be difficult to destroy. Period. However these players have put in time and effort to figure out how to be nasty little ships that can kill things and still survive. So give them credit for actually doing that, and don't gimp them because we can't keep up.
Engineering Captains will be able to survive pretty well. That's a given. We have the tankiest native ships (hull-wise). But we sacrifice damage to do it. A well built cruiser in the hands of an engineer will never die. That's a given. I have seen it. Granted they never kill anything, but that's not their job. They will NEVER die. My AC has proven that point over and over again. This is not the tankiest cruiser for it's tier (that goes to Star Cruiser, or the "Shovel") but if I go to pure defense and focus on heals and regens for my shields, my ship never dies. Ever. My dps is usually cut in half, but I always live. That's our job. Look pretty and heal things. *throws up in a quiet corner*
Science Captains will always be tanky and always be mind-fkers. They have the best shield modifiers on their native ships. They have the best heals and disrupts on their native ships. The unfortunate part is that their disrupts got nerfed, but hey, gravity well is still very aesthetically pleasing and also VERY effective if used right, as is almost any science ability. And if you have a ship like an Orb Weaver or Recluse, you will never die. Ever. IF you play it right. You can heal, mind-fk, and eventually kill a majorly derped target (or used to, not so sure now).
So in the end, we gotta come to terms with the fact that Escorts have the highest damage potential. That's their job. They sacrificed health and durability to get that job. Cruisers have the highest survivability. That's their job. They sacrificed maneuverability and firepower to get that job. Science Ships have the best mind-fks and shields. That's their job. They sacrificed two weapons and durability to get that job. Carriers are just mean so they don't count lol...
So as much as I feel the game doesn't follow canon, and is imbalanced, it's more you just gotta stop trying what isn't going to work. I stopped trying to be a huge damage dealer with my cruiser. I'm a bloody engineer. It's not going to work. Instead I focused on what I was supposed to do, and things have been going a mite more smoothly since. I want to hit hard, and kill things. But at the same time I want to tank and be useful. As meimetoo pointed out, you can't have it all. So I make do with what I got.
There is room for improvement, don't get me wrong, as I said, our space whales could use a little more swing to get our fat rears goin, and our little ticklers could at the least become bruisers. But as was stated many times before now, that's never going to happen. The devs may not care, they may not see the need, or they might not see what we do. Regardless of that, nothing has happened in two years to make cruisers better, and from what I have seen, they actually haven't changed much since launch. Maybe a little more hull, maybe a slight change here and there (probably visually), but they are like PvP. Static.
Get used to it. Cruisers are seemingly useless. Courtesy of how PvE is so damage oriented. Until that changes and their roles as tanks/healers/support are actually NEEDED, not nice to have, but a must have, they will remain that way.
"NEEDED, not nice to have" sorry but cruisers aren't even desired, anything we can do for an STF an escort can do as well! "nice to have"... When I play my escort and I look at the poor cruiser behind me and I'm thinking: 'I feel so sorry for you because you have so little to add here' THAT'S NOT RIGHT! I should be thoroughly happy he's there!
But like you said, they don't care, of course if the PvP lot cared... well that's a different story, one I can only dream of.
It's a Star Trek game and people have certain expectations they wouldn't have if it where just a "normal" sci fi game.
When it comes to ships, our "Space whales" (how dismissive for both, the real for the "real" whales and Trek ships btw.) is what make this universe differ from generic Sci Fi universes, people expect other "laws" of ship mechanic as if this where a Star Wars or Battlestar Galactica type of game.
Big and smaller Cruisers (STOs Cruisers and Science ships) are the major spacefaring ships. Escorts are stripped down Starships with the single purpose of defend or attack something. They where smaller, faster and more easie to maintain than huge ships like a Nebula Class. But they wheren't more powerful than these ships.
On the other hand, the playerbase of an MMO expects all "classes" to be equal (also a form of communism @ US citizens
Obviously their goal was to attract the average MMO player so they didn't want to confuse them in creating a more appropriate ship balancing mechanic.
As i said i wouldn't have any problem if this where just a normal/generic Sci fi game, the classification of Cruisers being the "tank", science the "Wizard" and Escorts being the "damage Dealer", would be perfectly ok and their equality would be perfectly ok.
I never saw Cruisers or Science ships as support ships for escorts, providing them with healing or other things. That's not how ships in Star Trek work, they ALL are able to "heal" themselves, transferring healing is just a weird idea in my opinion. This isn't a fantasy game where clerics heal everyone else, these are Starships. Thats where my problem with this game lies.
But the devs didn't even make their "own" game balanced, instead they made Escorts the most powerful and dominating ships so everyone has to ask himself "why flying something else?".
In capable hands (we have to act on this assumption) every ship has enough survivability to be able to survive almost ANY situation in this game. Please don't missunderstand me now, i am perfectly OK with ships being able to
take care of themselves. I like it much more than seeing the most iconic Star Trek ships degraded to Healer dutys for ships that don't really belong to Star Trek imo.
Science ships are (in theory) able to contribute their wizard - like powers to space battles. But the original job of a Cruiser in this game (fortunately) isn't needed anymore.
What i would like to see is a reappraisal of cruisers in this game. In my opinion their task should be to provide Heavy firepower, but they shouldn't be as fast and maneuverable as Escorts of course. Their survivability should be lowered to be more on par with the other shipclasses and their Firepower should be increased at the same time. On the other hand Escorts should get a bit more survivability and a bit less Firepower. But keeping both ships still different in handling and
operation.
My point is that the gap between Escorts and Cruisers shouldn't be as big anymore, both ship types main task would be to kill enemy ships just using other means.
So the difficulty would be to balance firepower and survivability to the point where cruisers aren't the flying bricks with no function anymore. I think ships like the Regent and the Galor are a step into that direction, to veer away from being the main healerships with virtually no noticeable offensive capabilities. Maybe giving them less hull and increasing their tactical BOFF slot or consoles could be a way to solve this dilemma.
Sometimes i wish STO wouldn't be a Trek game at all, to be honest.
Thank you for reading or ignoring, depending on who you are.
Excellent points across the board 100% agreed with the exception of the following...
I would not be so quick to say Cruisers do not have the task to "kill". In every ST episode most of the time it was a Cruiser inflicting the damage (with the exception of DS9). Would the Federation would send a plethora of Cruisers up against the Borg in Wolf 359 if they were not meant to kill???
Additionally, what good is a Cruiser for PvP? Unless you spend 100% of your ST gaming experience playing PvE (very boring, imo). In a Cruiser....it's highly doubtful that many Engineering Captains will find it possible to survive in PvP. Please understand I'm not trying to insult you, or, anyone who is an Engineering Captain that flys a Cruiser. I used to have an Eng toon in a Cruiser. I was faced with the choice of quitting the game, or, making a Tac Captain. I chose to do the latter.
Cruisers should only have to sacrifice 1 or the other. Turning, or Weapons Power, but NOT BOTH. By sacrificing both, the Engineers in Cruisers just end up castrated in their inability to inflict damage or kill off an opponent. Getting to pick 1 or the other would NOT make them overpowered, but it would make the game a LOT more fun to play, not to mention more balanced.
Maybe L2P really *does* come into play. I took a (constructive) look at:
Your Ody setup
And well, no offence, but that was a very bad loadout. I was surprised, actually. Like:
"Tactical Consoles: Assimilated Module, Worker Bees"
Yeah, well, no wonder you complain about cruisers doing too little DPS.
Now, two things can happen, in order of likelihood:
1) I get flamed again by the fanbois.
2) Or, you start having a hard and long look at how you fit, and realize thay maybe you're not the greatest fitter, after all. Like I said, I was surprised, really; because you speak with such authority in this thread, that I kinda assumed you knew how to fit a cruiser properly. Apparently not.
I even brushed over some of your other cruiser setups in this thread; and stumbled upon this:
You have no less than 5 (!) EPtX skills divided over 2 eng boffs!! Hello Kitty?! And even your suggested 'fix' still makes this utter fail, as the reduced cooldown will only ever work between max 2 copies of a skill (or skill-branch). Like between EPtS1 and EPtW2: press EPtS1, and EPtW will be available faster (with all other EPtX skils on same timer as the latter). So, 3 out of 5 of these EPtX skills remain unused all the time!
And what do your fanboi minions reply?
"Congratulations. Thats a totally viable build."
LOL. Am I the truly the only one willing to say the Emperor is not wearing any clothes?! Seriously, you peeps amuse me. As irony would have it, cruisers actually *may* need a buff; but a viable cruiser starts with a viable pilot. Maybe you should start with the latter?
Not so weird, really. Ever heard of 'spider-tanking'? There are new doffs now (for Extend Shield) that buff yourself too. Put these on each other, and you're both are as good as untakeable. We used to do that in EVE all the time. It rules.
In EVE they solved this perfectly. Battleships, for instance, can fire high-DPS cruise missiles; they do a crapload of damage, but can't hit smaller targets for ****. Likewise, a (small) frigate can't output as much DPS, but hits small targets with great precision.
Maybe STO needs something like that too: have cruisers do high DPS (but at reduced accuracy), so they can hit the big targets (gates, heavy marauders, etc), and have escorts be accurate, but do less DPS. That way you kinda need each other again.
Yup, subspace jumper can ruin your day.
^^ N.B. To those in this thread (wrongly) crying for a nerf to TT, see? There are always ways around an obstacle. Most will either want a buff for themselves, or scream foul and want the other guy nerfed. And few there be that just play smarter. Q.E.D.
Did you have EPTS up at all? How about TT? You told what is possibly the most frontloaded (spike) dps ship the feds have, piloted by someone that pvps (few pvers have the jump console) to "go all out" and ou're surprised? What gear are you using? where you standing still? Your anecdote says nothing.
But the 64 dollar ? is....., "Would it really matter anyway?"
I run EptS 1 and 2, macro-ed so they are always up (shield power on full weapon power is never below 95), along with TSS 2, with the maco Mk 12 sheild that cuts % of off damage there supposedly also. And, a good escort, fleet def-R or the bug, can run thru my shields in a matter of seconds. And then even if the sheilds hold, for some ungodly reason, the new PVP FOTM, DEM, cuts that to hull tanking.
To be honest, I'm not even sure that hull resists are even working now or at least working as they used to. I'm running 40s with the excel which basicly equates to almost absolutly nothing in gameplay against all this DPS.
There has been WAY too many DPS adds while "tanking/healing" skills have found the Cryptic NERF bat. But, not to worry, that's not likely to CHANGE. DPS and P2W sells in the store so that is pretty safe for all who want it that way.