Assuming a single target and FAW being active my build roughly peaks at 3,400 DPS.
Take away FAW and it drops down to 2,800. Stupidly large drop imo considering the low numbers to begin with(600DPS).
So I run a 2,800 DPS build.
An Escort with equivalent gear and specing (cannons instead of arrays etc) with its abilities activated peaks at roughly 6,900 DPS.
Remove those abilities and it drops to 3,700 DPS.
6,900-3,400=3,500
3,700-2,800=900
So between similarly equipped, roughly, we see a difference of 900-3,500 DPS.
And seeing as you can rotate abilities to increase overall sustained DPS for PvE or smash them all for PvP... that adds up.
Those aren't small numbers. Even at the closest point between the two its almost a full 33% more potent than the Cruiser's and at its highest its a almost a 50% increase over the Cruisers output.
This is assuming that its an Engineer in the Cruiser and a Tactical in the Escort.
Put the Tactical in the Cruiser and it peaks around 4,500 due to increased number of buffs provided from the Captain. And 2,950 without. That's a change of 1,540, yeesh.
6,900-4,500=2,400
3,700-2,950=750
A difference of 750-2,400
Tac Captain vs the Engineering Captain in the same Cruiser is:
4,500 peak for Tac
Difference is 1,100DPS at best output
3,400 peak for Eng
2,950 low for Tac
Difference is 150DPS at lowest output
2,800 low for Eng.
Escorts are fine. Tac Captains are OP when in Escorts.
And Cruisers have some issues.
Actually best Ive gotten out of my Fed Engie is in a Tac Oddy, The extra Tac Boff (Universals) slots add alot to DPS.
FAW+EPS+Nadion+APB, and 2 Torp Spreads.
With 6 Beam Arrays, 180 Torp(Regent) and Torp Rear. Plus the PDS(Thunderchild) gets me around 5,000.
Guess you could say P2W for the Tac Oddy, Regent Torp and Thunderchild PDS. but thats the best I could get my Engie to do.
Tank that has respectable DPS, Fully specced into Threat. Running 1 EPTS,EPTW and 3 Purple Damage Control Doffs. 1 Purple Torp Doff, 1 Purple Beam Doff.
But, no other Fed Cruiser can I get that same DPS out of as an engineer. Its the boff layout that makes it work.
Honestly, I think all cruisers but the oddy need a tac in them to do decent Damage Fed side. As an Engineer anything but the Oddy is overkill on tanking. I use only the Commander Engineer boff for Engie skills. And can tank the gate/Tac cube and spheres all at once. So as an Engie all other cruisers are just gimping yourself. That seems broken to me.
That or Tacs should fly Cruisers and Engies should fly Escorts to balance it out. lol
And the Klink side, the Tac Bortasqu with the same setup and my Engie is soooo much better. Its the same boff layout, but with a cool frontal weapon, and 5 TAC CONSOLES! lol. So I feel good until I switch to Klink and see how it really should be.
And both were upgraded ships at the time with the best they could get their hands on. Mind you the Lakota tried to disable not destroy the Defiant, but still most of Star Trek on TV has always been about disabling not destroying ships any ways.
First: unlike in STO in "real" Star Trek even a upgraded Excelsior is still a old ship compared to a Galaxy Class for instance.
Second: It was Clearly stated that the Lakota held back much of it's firepower (torpedoes) and if it would have been a "real" fight for the death, thing would have gone very different. Captain Benteen clearly states that they only tried to disable the defiant, not to destroy it (2:22). On the other hand the Defiant DID use it's torpedoes (1:44).
Third: Let's not forget the Defiant had the Hero Bonus (the writers hardly could have the defiant get destroyed. )
Fourth: Did you see the maneuverability of the Lakota at 0:25, much better than a STO cruiser. (just saying)
Althrough they have a filed battleplan and they (think they) know where the weak spot on the cruiser is, they are still lightyears away from destroying that ship.
Anyway their result was rather dissappointing.:D:D
My point:
In "real" Star Trek escorts are NOT the extremely overpowered ships they are in STO. It's the devs that made them that way, because they are some Star Wars fans making a StarTrek game and have no idea about Star Trek ships.
OT:
I don't want to start talking about Klingon vs. Federation Cruisers, i think first and foremost ALL Cruisers should get at least two of this:
[*]More Firepower.
[*]More Maneuverability.
[*]More tactical BOFF and Console slots. (At least 1 additional Lt., especially older STO ships like the T5 Cruisers.)
[*]A higher Energy output, depending on the mass/inertia of the ship.
Thank you for reading.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Current problems with Federation & Klingon Cruisers.
Low Damage: When you have low damage you are no threat therefore escorts are able to tank you with no fear and you will be picked off last in any team fight situation and be purely useless.
Solution: Change the mechanics to where beam weapons installed on Cruisers fire instead of 6 shots per cycle only fire 1 but increase the damage by 600%. Here is what I mean. Take a base phaser beam of 800 damage but instead of firing " 6 " 800's like you normally would you would fire only " 1 " 4800 beam shot and still would have to wait 6 seconds to fire again. This will give an incentive to do decent burst damage and make situations happen in many if not all scenarios. This will also involve changing FAW and BO to reflect these changes.
Bad Mechanics: Federation Cruisers need stronger base shield and hull mechanics and vice versa for Klingon Cruisers.
Solution: Increase ONLY Federation Cruisers base shield mechanics by 25%. Increase ALL federation ship base hull by 15% to reflect the quality of their ships. Reduce ALL klingons ship base shield by 10%. Reduce ALL klingons ship base hull by 15% due to poor materials and being much faster than the federation counterparts.
Faction Flavor: Federation Cruisers are better designed with better materials than the Klingon Cruisers. If you are going to make them so slow they need to have much better hull points and shields to reflect this.
Solution: Federation Cruisers as well as any of the federation ships should have 3 qualities to make them unique. Stronger shields than any faction, stronger hull than any faction and slower moving ships. For Klingons it should be weaker shields than any faction, weaker hull than any faction and faster moving ships. This means ALL ships involded bought through C-Store, earned, whatever. NO EXCEPTIONS. See " Bad Mechanics "
BO Layout: Almost all cruiser layouts for BO are terrible except the Oddy. The worst is the Galaxy X Class by far.
Solution: Cruisers are Multi-Role ships. Redesign the BO layouts to make them univeral to combat the limitations of functionality.
End Result: Federation Cruisers as well as other ships will have a certain qualities that will outshine other factions. Despite being slow they will be have to have decent firepower not like a escort but will be able to do damage and be much tougher than in the current state and actually be feared. Keep in mind that the Federation is a Defensive based faction.
Klingons Cruisers as well other ships in the empire will still be able to perform their roles perfectly but will have to rely more on their cloaking technology than ever before due to the balance pass. Keep in mind that the Klingon Empire is a offensive based faction.
Romulans will be a faction in the game soon and will be more Def/Off balance faction in the near future.
Hull and Shield strength are just fine on the Cruisers at the moment.
What the Cruisers are lacking is competitive armaments, and movement speed. Both in a straight line and when attempting to make a turn.
Where the Engineers are lacking is in abilities that can make them into a powerful but not OP choice. Right now Engineers carry no real DPS increasing abilities, unlike their Tactical Captain counterparts who get plenty of them and then the ships they fly offer much improved options for dealing damage over what the Cruisers are capable of doing.
When it comes to Tactical abilities from Bridge Officers the Cruisers that are without Universal slots are limited to 2 sometimes 3 Tactical abilities. Generally speaking Ensign Tactical abilities are considered less than ideal.
Look at an Escort who on average has up to 5+ options available to them.
The Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit has 3 Tactical BOff openings. Allowing for an insane 8 Tactical Abilities to be trained and used.
The Dread only has 3 available... that is a +5 advantage for the FTER(lol).
Now add onto that the number of damage increasing abilities from a Tac Captain vs those of an Engineer.
Tac Captain: 4
Eng Captain: 0
Bumping the total in this example to a +9 DD ability advantage and 12 overall!
Only the Tac Odyssey Cruiser with its two open Universal BOff slots makes a half hearted effort to close this gap. At least the Tac Odyssey and the Standard Odyssey have access to Attack Pattern Omega!
*snip snip* Right now Engineers carry no real DPS increasing abilities, unlike their Tactical Captain counterparts who get plenty of them and then the ships they fly offer much improved options for dealing damage over what the Cruisers are capable of doing.
When it comes to Tactical abilities from Bridge Officers the Cruisers that are without Universal slots are limited to 2 sometimes 3 Tactical abilities. Generally speaking Ensign Tactical abilities are considered less than ideal.
Look at an Escort who on average has up to 5+ options available to them.
The Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit has 3 Tactical BOff openings. Allowing for an insane 8 Tactical Abilities to be trained and used.
The Dread only has 3 available... that is a +5 advantage for the FTER(lol).
Now add onto that the number of damage increasing abilities from a Tac Captain vs those of an Engineer.
Tac Captain: 4
Eng Captain: 0
Bumping the total in this example to a +9 DD ability advantage and 12 overall!
Only the Tac Odyssey Cruiser with its two open Universal BOff slots makes a half hearted effort to close this gap. At least the Tac Odyssey and the Standard Odyssey have access to Attack Pattern Omega!
Yeeeah... -.-
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
You misunderstand me, I think, hereticknight.
If I am mistaken, my apologies and if I may, I will attempt to further explain myself for the benefit of myself and others.
The point I was trying to make is that I have shifted my focus from the ships themselves and believe the issues to be from the powers that affect ship performance.
While I know that in reality, lawl, Cruisers would be the main DD and meatshields, I understand that it will not happen in this game. Nor am I currently advocating for it.
What I am attempting illustrate is the size of the gap that exists and where a large part of it comes from.
Access to powers.
The BOff layout on Tac ships allows them to pick up some of the most useful survival abilities from the both the Engineering side of things and the Science side of things, while allowing full access to the best of the Tactical abilities.
Due to their innate defense from movement, things like EPtS is not as useful as say RSP or HE. You don't pick up Science Team due to it sharing a cool down with Tac Team, same for Eng Team.
Also due to their +15 to weapons and slower rate of fire on Cannons, they don't need things like EPtW like a Cruiser or Science vessel does.
Do you see where I am going with this?
A Cruiser player is does not have an innate defense comparable to an Escort from movement so things like EPtS are more of a need rather than a perk.
Being considered as a healer we find ourselves trying to choose between Eng/Sci/Tac Teams. We also have to take into consideration which will function best for a fellow player rather than just for ourselves.
Since we equip rapid firing weapons such as the beam array, we see a much more drastic effect on our weapon energy. This means that in PvP or combat heavy PvE we are forced to carry at least one additional way of boosting that power level in order to keep it at appreciable levels for dps. Two if we plan on going as dps.
Also, as we are consider to be the "tanks" of the game that means we are looking at things like EPtS WITH RSP. Not a one or the other type thing. Also means hull or shield heals, since going both to often tends to tie our hands in one way or another.
The Escort focuses on one thing. Damage.
The Cruiser focuses on healing self, others, support of others, tanking and general token dps contribution.
But we do not have the flexibility(as has been mentioned) in our layout to allow us to accomplish this. Even swapping out BOffs in-between things does not allow us to function to our half potential.
The Escort doesn't need anything above Lt. levels from Science or Engineering.
But we as Cruisers do need more than just Ensign and Lt. level abilities from Tac and would like a chance at some from Science.
Similarly if we look at console breakdowns we see a similar dilemma unfold itself as we begin to run into the dimishing returns issue with Eng consoles where as they do not with Tac consoles. Meaning we can make it so that we can indeed live forever... but so will the enemy. But a Tac Captain doesn't need to live forever because he just increased his damage output by yet another XX%.
In PvP tanks are a misnomer as they serve no function in PvP.
You don't attack a tank in PvP, there isn't a reason to. You don't want to waste all day killing it, and you know it can't kill you so what do you do? You stomp the guys that do actually pose a threat, then run away laughing as the tank lumbers after you asking you to stop. (Come back here! I'll bite your legs off!)
Due to their innate defense from movement, things like EPtS is not as useful as say RSP or HE. You don't pick up Science Team due to it sharing a cool down with Tac Team, same for Eng Team.
You have it backwards, HE and RSP I rarely use, they are my panic buttons. EPTS is something I use far far more often on my escort. Note that I actually have all 3, not one or the other, all 3. Conversely my engi cruiser has constant tac team uptime, EPTW3 and a copy of APB and APO. Its hard to believe how much better things work out when a tough target has the APB debuff lol
I think the real problem is that too many cruisers have boff layouts that make them unsuitable for combat. In particular the Galaxy and Starcruiser come to mind with their ONE Lt. Tac Boff station. I am convinced these ships were designed to deal with types of encounters that simply don't exist in STO, encounters more akin to a WoW raid boss where such overspecialization might have been desirable. Maybe at one time STO was envisioned to have WoW style space raids? Or maybe its something simpler, like they wanted to have 3 cruisers that leaned towards tac, engi and sci, and the Assault Cruiser lucked out.
The solution to the problem caused by this is simple although unsatisfying, steering all new and current players away from anything with less than 3 tac boff powers.
haven't read the whole thread, but my view on the topic. Problem aren't really the ships but the missions. Even in Elitestf a good escort can tank everything and does the most damage, so why would you bring anything else? So for other ships to be valueable, you need missions where not everything can be solved with damage. No win scenario is maybe a step in the right direction where some healing for the freighter is useful. I love my escorts but to be honest they can take too much damage. So weaken defense of escorts, change missions so that you need tank/healer/debuffer and all ships would be useful again. But that would complicate finding groups since you need the trinity tank/healer/dd like in other games.
I should clarify: my original response to your idea was not meant as a rejection, more like a challenge to gimme more.:)
Could you please put in more details?
A buddy of mine and I have been playing with a few ideas and our ideas were to add more beam types, one of them with more dps but reduced range (and higher power demand) and one with less dps but a higher max range than 10.
The former as a possible cruiser-only weapons option and the latter exclusively for science ships (which would allow them to support from a distance)
Same here, I was not saying your idea is bad, its a great idea, but from what I have seen with the devs they are a bit lazy to me. Anyway that is what I talking about, the 2 ideas and you and your friend have come up are great they should add these, plus maybe a rapid fire beam array to fire at a faster rate but with sort range and medium dps or something like that, or maybe the devs could just make the escorts powers/abilities less powerful so it does not shred a cruiser in seconds, the probably I see is turn rate, low power and low dps, with cruisers I can tank very well for while until the whole team is on me or in a 1v1 its 50/50 until they spam there rapid cannons plus boost to weapons power etc.
I still like the idea of upping cruiser resistance to power drain or lowering drain levels of beam weapons. One would have thought they would have made it practical to fire 6 beams simultaneously on a ship designed with such a layout in mind.
Well in Canon star trek, series and movies, beams arrays rarely fire at the same time most of the time they fire one beam at a time, Any you can fire 6 beams at the same time any way just need to manuavuer your ship at a angle and there you go, need to have 6 or 8 weapons slots though.
Okay lets look at the issues that have caused this problem with cruisers:-
Problem 1 - Cryptic deciding on Fed cruisers being pure tanks and healers and giving escorts such superior firepower
a) The majority of us are Trek fans and I suspect a healthy portion of us prefer cruisers. The problem is the game has relegated them to a support role (which isn't needed much outside of PvP) and made the gap in firepower between an escort and a cruiser so great that flying an escort is a no brainer. At worst cruisers should have been treated as a jack-of-all-trades master of none class, with a 4th class specifically focused on engineering (and SCE class if you will).
b) A cruiser is a much larger ship and as such should have more powerful weapons. Instead the smaller more mobile ships have all the heavy weapons.
c) Dual Heavy Cannons/Dual Cannons - Lets face it, there's a HUGE gap in damage between a beam array and a dual heavy cannon.
d) Torps are pretty useless except against unshielded targets. Even then in PvP every one has generally enough kinetic resists to make them do pretty worthless damage if they don't crit.
e) Escorts have only about 1000 less shield HP then a cruiser.
Starship Captain Skills: Updated starship captain skills that only affected a single ship type. These skills now provide 25% of their stat improvement to higher tier ships of the same category (cruiser, escort, etc.) This update addresses the concern that Commander and Captain rank starship caption skills were wasted skill points once the player moved into their next tier of ship.
This resulted in a boost to hull and shields and pushed escorts out of the danger zone and ended them being glass cannons. Strangely enough it also resulted in Klingons losing their lower hull/shield disadvantage (different stat boost originally?).
With the change to the recent skill table, it appears to have took this into consideration so people will have the same hull and shields they did with the season 1 change.
Problem 2 - Season 1.2's change to weapon power drain mechanics.
The weapon energy drain mechanic will be changing once this build goes to Holodeck. Weapon Power drain is now instantly refunded at the end of a weapon?s firing cycle, instead of a slow return as was previously implemented. Multiple weapons being fired at the same time will still produce a significant drain and will affect their damage proportionately, but once the weapons stop firing, the weapon power level will immediately return to normal.
Cryptics changing of how weapon power drains work gave a massive advantage to escorts and took away the EPS flow reg (and an engineers EPS power transfer) advantage from cruisers. Before the change, a cruiser could stack EPS flow regulators to allow it to compete with an escort. Now the only reason to take an EPS flow reg is for beam overload.
Not only that, but it took away some of the thinking aspect of space combat.
Problem 4 - Cryptic giving the tactical escort retrofit another engineering console slot.
Cloak is a Cloaking Device Console item.
Added Engineering Console Slot.
Problem 5a - Season 2's Inclusion of field generators
Link - There are no release notes or other documentation found that mention field generators being added to the game. If I remember correctly they were added the same time the emblem currency was added.
If the last shield and hull buff took the Escorts out of the glass cannon zone, this firmly took them out of the danger zone. Now escorts had plenty of room to tank and resist alpha strikes.
Problem 5b - Field Generators becoming science consoles and stackable
This removed one of the biggest advantages cruisers had in the way of shield tanking. A very questionable solution to the old science console problem. Now you can get advanced escorts with more shields than an assault cruiser.
Escort/Raider/Raptor innate Defense set to 10% max. The Defense bonus is tied to the ship's speed, but reaches the max bonus at average speeds.
Problem 7 - Unintended nerf to power boost consoles
Link - Not documented
Rare Mk XI engineer power boost consoles used to increase power by +7, now it's a worthless +3.5.
All in all this is why I dumped my cruiser for an escort about a year ago. The only real regret I have is that I prefer the larger ships, but escorts are just so much more superior.
You have it backwards, HE and RSP I rarely use, they are my panic buttons. EPTS is something I use far far more often on my escort. Note that I actually have all 3, not one or the other, all 3. Conversely my engi cruiser has constant tac team uptime, EPTW3 and a copy of APB and APO. Its hard to believe how much better things work out when a tough target has the APB debuff lol
I think the real problem is that too many cruisers have boff layouts that make them unsuitable for combat. In particular the Galaxy and Starcruiser come to mind with their ONE Lt. Tac Boff station. I am convinced these ships were designed to deal with types of encounters that simply don't exist in STO, encounters more akin to a WoW raid boss where such overspecialization might have been desirable. Maybe at one time STO was envisioned to have WoW style space raids? Or maybe its something simpler, like they wanted to have 3 cruisers that leaned towards tac, engi and sci, and the Assault Cruiser lucked out.
The solution to the problem caused by this is simple although unsatisfying, steering all new and current players away from anything with less than 3 tac boff powers.
thats actually a perfect observation of the problem with cruisers or lets say the problem people have with cruisers. A cruiser with less than 3 tac boff slots is undesireable to say the least. But there are many cruisers that have more than 3 tac boff slots...which make them certainly not perfect for combat, but competitive even to some escorts. (but those are mostly on the klingon side right now: karfi, fleet vorcha, bortasque tac variant)
atleast 3 are available to fed players anyway. basically all cruisers with 3 or more tac console slots.
Buffing cruiser generally damage wise would turn the cruisers that are already good dmg dealers into absolut overpowered super weapons far better than escorts are now. In my opinion the fleet vorcha is already at this point. i'm actually considering to get one for my klingon tactical captain, because it has such a compelling boff layout and overall a nice combination of tanking and dmg. But in my opinion overpowered.
Okay lets look at the issues that have caused this problem with cruisers:-
Problem 1 - Cryptic deciding on Fed cruisers being pure tanks and healers and giving escorts such superior firepower
a) The majority of us are Trek fans and I suspect a healthy portion of us prefer cruisers. The problem is the game has relegated them to a support role (which isn't needed much outside of PvP) and made the gap in firepower between an escort and a cruiser so great that flying an escort is a no brainer. At worst cruisers should have been treated as a jack-of-all-trades master of none class, with a 4th class specifically focused on engineering (and SCE class if you will).
b) A cruiser is a much larger ship and as such should have more powerful weapons. Instead the smaller more mobile ships have all the heavy weapons.
c) Dual Heavy Cannons/Dual Cannons - Lets face it, there's a HUGE gap in damage between a beam array and a dual heavy cannon.
d) Torps are pretty useless except against unshielded targets. Even then in PvP every one has generally enough kinetic resists to make them do pretty worthless damage if they don't crit.
e) Escorts have only about 1000 less shield HP then a cruiser.
This resulted in a boost to hull and shields and pushed escorts out of the danger zone and ended them being glass cannons. Strangely enough it also resulted in Klingons losing their lower hull/shield disadvantage (different stat boost originally?).
With the change to the recent skill table, it appears to have took this into consideration so people will have the same hull and shields they did with the season 1 change.
Problem 2 - Season 1.2's change to weapon power drain mechanics.
Cryptics changing of how weapon power drains work gave a massive advantage to escorts and took away the EPS flow reg (and an engineers EPS power transfer) advantage from cruisers. Before the change, a cruiser could stack EPS flow regulators to allow it to compete with an escort. Now the only reason to take an EPS flow reg is for beam overload.
Not only that, but it took away some of the thinking aspect of space combat.
Problem 4 - Cryptic giving the tactical escort retrofit another engineering console slot.
Problem 5a - Season 2's Inclusion of field generators
Link - There are no release notes or other documentation found that mention field generators being added to the game. If I remember correctly they were added the same time the emblem currency was added.
If the last shield and hull buff took the Escorts out of the glass cannon zone, this firmly took them out of the danger zone. Now escorts had plenty of room to tank and resist alpha strikes.
Problem 5b - Field Generators becoming science consoles and stackable
This removed one of the biggest advantages cruisers had in the way of shield tanking. A very questionable solution to the old science console problem. Now you can get advanced escorts with more shields than an assault cruiser.
Problem 7 - Unintended nerf to power boost consoles
Link - Not documented
Rare Mk XI engineer power boost consoles used to increase power by +7, now it's a worthless +3.5.
All in all this is why I dumped my cruiser for an escort about a year ago. The only real regret I have is that I prefer the larger ships, but escorts are just so much more superior.
Nice list here, Im glad you laid out the problems now we need to come up with some solutions. Cruiser I my mind are supposed to be the middle man, good at DPS, tanking and science but not very good, that why I went with sovereign class other then being my top fav ship I love its boff layout it because it is well balanced. To me thats how the cruiser should be but if there are those are more specific e.g. the tac cruiser then sure it should be more tac then but to balance it out needs to take away something, like how the Fleet AC boff layout was shown on tribble, more tac and less eng.
So I think the devs should change the power settings back to the way it was, reduce cannon damage a bit and increase beam array damage a bit. Also introduce other types of weapons as misterde3 suggested, a beam array high in damage/dps but to balance it out, sorten the range of the weapon and also maybe a long range beam array but less damage/dps or have the long rane beam array also have it be a rapid fire beam array.
Noobrage thread. Not really. He has a point with his post. But he forgets one thing. In most situations OTHER than PvP, cruisers are pointless. Escorts don't need healers. They seriously don't. I fly an escort. I have enough sustain and tanking ability that I don't need a healer. I can survive just fine without them. Whereas my cruiser kinda just sits looking pretty and pew pewing with little to to effect.
I am not asking that Cruisers become primary DDs, I know that's the escorts job. Yet everyone seems to think that I am saying we need it. So let me put things straight once and for all.
I am NOT asking that cruisers become main damage dealers. I am NOT asking that escorts be put out of the job. I am NOT only bashing escorts, for that matter I am NOT bashing ANY SHIP CLASS WHATSOEVER. I know what a cruiser's job is. I know what an escort's job is. I know what a science ship's job used to be.
That being said, the ONLY reason I ask for weapons like the Heavy Beam Array and things like the leader Aura is because I think (not KNOW but THINK) that cruisers have been rendered obsolete. I THINK they aren't needed anymore because of the sustain that escorts have. Due to that, they don't need the healers/support nearly as much. Since in all honesty, escorts kill things so fast whatever it is they are attacking won't have the time to deal enough damage to them to make a true healer needed. That's not OP, that's just what they do. I don't want a nerf on escorts (ok, maybe a slight durability reduction, ok maybe not so slight lol...), I just want something that makes cruisers worth flying again.
My AC is pretty tanky, and can survive quite well. And it deals OK damage. Barely acceptable. I know I will NEVER deal as much damage as an escort can. And for crying out loud, I have NEVER asked to be able to. It's NOT my job. But I want some bite. Something other than a little tickle. That was the Heavy Beam Array idea. The flagship aura was just an added idea I know is not going to happen and it's only purpose was so that those higher tier cruisers would have another reason to be there. Since they are support, why not give them more support prowess with that kind of buff?
Hence why the thread name. Cruisers seem to be a joke to me. I am not doing the usual CRUISER NEED TO BECOME ALL POWERFUL!!! NO! They don't. All I was asking IF YOU BOTHERED TO READ THE FIRST POST OF THIS THREAD is that they don't seem to be needed. So I merely offered suggestions that would make them an actually useful part of a team in an STF or other PvE. Sorry PvPers, but this game is mostly PvE, so unfortunately, cruisers are useful in PvP, but to most players in this game, that is meaningless.
So no, this is not a noobrage thread. I don't mean to sound rude (ok maybe a little) but if you bothered to read the initial post that I started the thread with, you would know that. I will agree that all of the subsequent responses are kinda noobrage and are asking for cruisers to be majorly buffed, but that was not the point of this thread.
The point of this thread was to point out the seeming uselessness of cruisers. That's all. If you think otherwise, DO SO WITHOUT INSULTING OTHERS. It's really not necessary. And it's annoying and counterproductive. Every second someone wastes (yes WASTES) defending themselves from someone else's attacking post is a second they could be using to perhaps come up with something that would be HELPFUL. All these arguments starting in this thread, ENOUGH.
Please try to be constructive...
Kid. You seemed to have answered to me. I didn't read. I refuse to read so long as you do not ditch the green/orange/purple fonts and stop abusing the caps lock key.
Whatever your beef with my eyes (and those of everyone unlucky enough to be confronted by your immature font) and that innocent key, it is undeserved.
Neither of them has ever done anything to harm you.
Just finished a KASE and a CSE in my new fleet patrol escort. Tanked Negs, Donotra, Cubes, Tac Cubes, everything. Granted it is my eng cap but I didn't feel those abilities were necessary. The really funny thing?
Im not even using field generators.
Only defensive boff skills are 2x Epower to shields 1 and a hazard emitter.
Borg Proc and BFI doffs FTW!!!
It is not any single thing causing this problem but underlying flaws in soo many system mechanics it is not even funny.
A focus on resists to tank instead of HP or buffer makes healing so insanely effective.
Number of easy ways to get enough tank without real sacrifices.
DPS boosts based upon ships potential, healing abilities are not.
Etc, Etc, Etc....
The other really funny thing? An escort and a cruiser with no consoles or boff abilities equipped just shield/engine/deflector which one do you think has more tank? Its not the cruiser..
Just finished a KASE and a CSE in my new fleet patrol escort. Tanked Negs, Donotra, Cubes, Tac Cubes, everything. Granted it is my eng cap but I didn't feel those abilities were necessary. The really funny thing?
Im not even using field generators.
Only defensive boff skills are 2x Epower to shields 1 and a hazard emitter.
Borg Proc and BFI doffs FTW!!!
It is not any single thing causing this problem but underlying flaws in soo many system mechanics it is not even funny.
A focus on resists to tank instead of HP or buffer makes healing so insanely effective.
Number of easy ways to get enough tank without real sacrifices.
DPS boosts based upon ships potential, healing abilities are not.
Etc, Etc, Etc....
The other really funny thing? An escort and a cruiser with no consoles or boff abilities equipped just shield/engine/deflector which one do you think has more tank? Its not the cruiser..
the tankiest escort + eng captain, 6 out of 12 boff powers dedicated to healing and resist i suppose, and you wonder why you could tank elite stfs?
try the same thing with a tac captain or a sci captain on a MVAE or a defiant, and you will see that tanking is not the best idea in an escort.
The other really funny thing? An escort and a cruiser with no consoles or boff abilities equipped just shield/engine/deflector which one do you think has more tank? Its not the cruiser..
thats simply due to the higher def rating. cruiser can still take more hits...with atleast 10k more HP, and a slight edge on SP.
also concerning the def values...oddy starcruiser (the one i use) has 60% def...fleet defiant 76% def. both at max speed powerlevel at around 46.
the fact that i can't be on target with an escort while going max speed cuts that rating nearly in half. a sacrifice i do not need to make in a broadsiding beam cruiser to stay on target, meaning the cruiser has actually more def than the escort while fireing on targets. you can do hit and run maneuvers, but that cuts escort overall dps in half.
also consider that resistance counts only for hull dmg...aslong as shields are up it is rather unimportant. But it is true that you can get some decent tank abilities rather easy, even on escorts. (RSP, TSS, HE, PH, etc...)
What do you mean by "DPS boost based on ship potential, healing not" i can't understand. if you want more healing you increase aux...therefore losing energy somewhere else.
Buffing cruiser generally damage wise would turn the cruisers that are already good dmg dealers into absolut overpowered super weapons far better than escorts are now. In my opinion the fleet vorcha is already at this point. i'm actually considering to get one for my klingon tactical captain, because it has such a compelling boff layout and overall a nice combination of tanking and dmg. But in my opinion overpowered.
it would only be overpowered in your opinion because it might put them on a par with your pretty little escorts, as for klingon Battlecruisers being OP, they're not, they are simply doing their job (shock horror)
if you want more healing you increase aux...therefore losing energy somewhere else.
also as it is I have min power in both engines and aux to make my damage:tank ratio the best I can have therefore Beam damage needs a boost, I know as an escort pilot I'd love for the cruiser firing beams over my head to be doing good damage to supplement my own, that way it it doesn't matter if I can't manage my full 20K DPS because the supporting cruiser is doing just that and thereby THEIR JOB
it would only be overpowered in your opinion because it might put them on a par with your pretty little escorts, as for klingon Battlecruisers being OP, they're not, they are simply doing their job (shock horror)
you misread that, i simply refered to the fleet vorcha as overpowered. it not only has the highest cruiser turnrate, it can equip dual cannons, cloak, and has 40k hull.
the normal version and the negh'var have similar turnrates, yes...but lack the BOFF powers to spike the dual cannon damage in a threatening way. The vorcha is already a very potent damage dealing cruiser as she is, adding 3 tac boff slots increased that potential drastically.
that means...a tank delivering the same, and even more (8 weapons slots) dmg while still maintaining access to abilities like RSP3 or AUXtoSIF3. and being able to have EPtS and EPtW. maybe even throw in a vent warp plasma just for fun. I forgot directed energy modulation in combination with DHC...
but it is not actually the ability to have all that together...it is the high turnrate that makes that cruiser OP in my opinion. That vor'cha does bring her cannons on target not only against slow moving NPC's...also in PVP they can do that.
so thats why a fleet assault cruiser (and the oddy tac cruiser) on fed side wouldn't be overpowered even with the same BOFF layout...since even if she could use dual cannons...she wouldn't be able to keep them too long on the target with only 7 turnrate.
and a 8 beam broadside by such a cruiser is only a little bit less dangerous than a frontal assault of an escort. the damage is nearly the same...only the spike dmg is smaller on a cruiser.
Again, battle cruisers, it's doing it's job, I do admit however it should lose a little hull and shield for it's turn rate thus making it a little more vulnerable but when Escorts are tanking better than cruisers are hitting (see Bug ship) that kinda becomes irrelevant, does it not?
you misread that, i simply refered to the fleet vorcha as overpowered. it not only has the highest cruiser turnrate, it can equip dual cannons, cloak, and has 40k hull.
the normal version and the negh'var have similar turnrates, yes...but lack the BOFF powers to spike the dual cannon damage in a threatening way. The vorcha is already a very potent damage dealing cruiser as she is, adding 3 tac boff slots increased that potential drastically.
that means...a tank delivering the same, and even more (8 weapons slots) dmg while still maintaining access to abilities like RSP3 or AUXtoSIF3. and being able to have EPtS and EPtW. maybe even throw in a vent warp plasma just for fun. I forgot directed energy modulation in combination with DHC...
but it is not actually the ability to have all that together...it is the high turnrate that makes that cruiser OP in my opinion. That vor'cha does bring her cannons on target not only against slow moving NPC's...also in PVP they can do that.
so thats why a fleet assault cruiser (and the oddy tac cruiser) on fed side wouldn't be overpowered even with the same BOFF layout...since even if she could use dual cannons...she wouldn't be able to keep them too long on the target with only 7 turnrate.
and a 8 beam broadside by such a cruiser is only a little bit less dangerous than a frontal assault of an escort. the damage is nearly the same...only the spike dmg is smaller on a cruiser.
Intriguing. Or fascinating as some would say :P
It sounds like an actual Vorcha, which is a good thing. Scary too.
Now in TNG the Vorcha wasn't on par with the Galaxy as it was more of a replacement for the aging D-7 design and it was the Negh'Var that was the Galaxy's superior firepower counterpart.
Either way, that ship is quite a tempting reason to create a Klingon.
I disagree with your statement of the damage from a Cruiser's broadside being similar to a frontal assault from an Escort. But may I have the weapon layout you would use on this particular Vorcha so I can do some comparison between it and an 8 beam Cruiser?
I disagree with your statement of the damage from a Cruiser's broadside being similar to a frontal assault from an Escort. But may I have the weapon layout you would use on this particular Vorcha so I can do some comparison between it and an 8 beam Cruiser?
I would suggest he would use 4 DHCs and 4 Turrets of either Mk XII [Borg] or fleet standard
Kid. You seemed to have answered to me. I didn't read. I refuse to read so long as you do not ditch the green/orange/purple fonts and stop abusing the caps lock key.
Whatever your beef with my eyes (and those of everyone unlucky enough to be confronted by your immature font) and that innocent key, it is undeserved.
Neither of them has ever done anything to harm you.
Heh... I like this guy, but alas he contributes not to this thread.
Well all I can say is that if you don't bother to read the first post in a thread, why bother to respond at all? Do us all the courtesy of not wasting our time with a response that is not constructive in any way shape or form.
Now that that's dealt with, baudl is right (god I can't believe I am saying this). I recently did some tests in elite stfs and in 1v1s with a few of my friends, and I found that after exactly 60 seconds of blasting a target's head in, my FPE with an engi captain was able to sustain about 8k dps with all buffs and abilities going. I was cycling TT1 and CRFs almost constantly in conjunction with APB1 and 2, and again a consistent 8k dps running full DHCs and turrets.
Now I did the same thing with only weapons firing, NO buffs of any kind. My dps dropped dramatically down to about 3.5k. That's a drop to roughly 40% of my standard dps on my FPE. I did a few more runs (after letting my friend heal, thank god that Oddys have such a high heal rate lol). I found that the primary increasers of damage were CRF and APB. TT helped but the damage increase was negligible.
Now I then grabbed my AC and ran the same test with equivalent weapons, 7 beam arrays. After 60 seconds of pounding, my dps was only around 4200 cycling abilities and buffs. HOWEVER the only tactical abilities I was running were TT1 and APB1, since that's all I had available with limited tac BOff slots.
Again, I then did weapons only. My dps dropped to 3200. So a 25% reduction give or take. I found the interesting part was that the AC using just weapons was hitting only 600 dps less than my FPE doing the same thing. My friend and I had a quick discussion and then ran one more test.
I proceeded to dishonor the USS Naglfar with 7 beam arrays and ran the full buffs test again, but this time cycling BFAW, TT1, and APB1 and 2 (should be noted, only one copy of BFAW, don't have another copy on my tac officer, since it has TS1 instead). This is where it got interesting. After 60 seconds of firing and cycling all the abilities, my FPE was consistently hitting 6k dps, with spikes up to 6500 when I used BFAW.
We then ran the same test with just the 7 beam arrays, and it was IDENTICAL to the AC running just beam arrays. Not really a surprise, but just a confirmation of something we already figured.
So conclusions of test:
Shooters:
Eqipment: Phaser DHCs mk XI Common, Phaser Turrets mk XI Common, Phaser Beam Arrays mk XI Common, NO PHASER RELAYS
USS Void Guardian (Assault Cruiser)
7 BAs + Buffs: 4200 dps
7 BAs: 3200
Target:
USS Phlegm (Odyssey Tactical Cruiser)
No Consoles, Shields, Deflector, Engines, Weapons. Just a floating hulk essentially XD.
We used Phasers because they were easy and cheap to get, in addition to the fact that their proc wouldn't do anything if the target had no shields. We also decided to do it against straight hull since it would be easiest to track dps and you don't have to take shield heal into acc. We also had him separated saucer to reduce his crew heals, and we also blasted away most of his crew with torpedoes and then healed him with Eng teams to get as static a test as possible.
So Final Conclusion:
Baudl and friends are right, it's BOff slots + tactical consoles. Not the escorts. At least when it comes to damage dealing. But I still say they're too tanky.
But before you start preening yourself, it also comes down to weapons. DHCs and Turrets have a similar dps to Beam Arrays, but have more abilities that enhance them, and/or those abilities are better at enhancing them.
Just some numbers since that's what everyone is always asking for.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Comments
I used the Galaxy X.
And for the record... I think the DD problem comes more from the Tac Captain and Tac abilities than the ships themselves.
Also, DHC out dps beam arrays at base pre-equipped levels by almost 100 dps. Only turrets have a lower base damage rate.
Actually best Ive gotten out of my Fed Engie is in a Tac Oddy, The extra Tac Boff (Universals) slots add alot to DPS.
FAW+EPS+Nadion+APB, and 2 Torp Spreads.
With 6 Beam Arrays, 180 Torp(Regent) and Torp Rear. Plus the PDS(Thunderchild) gets me around 5,000.
Guess you could say P2W for the Tac Oddy, Regent Torp and Thunderchild PDS. but thats the best I could get my Engie to do.
Tank that has respectable DPS, Fully specced into Threat. Running 1 EPTS,EPTW and 3 Purple Damage Control Doffs. 1 Purple Torp Doff, 1 Purple Beam Doff.
But, no other Fed Cruiser can I get that same DPS out of as an engineer. Its the boff layout that makes it work.
Honestly, I think all cruisers but the oddy need a tac in them to do decent Damage Fed side. As an Engineer anything but the Oddy is overkill on tanking. I use only the Commander Engineer boff for Engie skills. And can tank the gate/Tac cube and spheres all at once. So as an Engie all other cruisers are just gimping yourself. That seems broken to me.
That or Tacs should fly Cruisers and Engies should fly Escorts to balance it out. lol
And the Klink side, the Tac Bortasqu with the same setup and my Engie is soooo much better. Its the same boff layout, but with a cool frontal weapon, and 5 TAC CONSOLES! lol. So I feel good until I switch to Klink and see how it really should be.
First: unlike in STO in "real" Star Trek even a upgraded Excelsior is still a old ship compared to a Galaxy Class for instance.
Second: It was Clearly stated that the Lakota held back much of it's firepower (torpedoes) and if it would have been a "real" fight for the death, thing would have gone very different. Captain Benteen clearly states that they only tried to disable the defiant, not to destroy it (2:22). On the other hand the Defiant DID use it's torpedoes (1:44).
Third: Let's not forget the Defiant had the Hero Bonus (the writers hardly could have the defiant get destroyed.
Fourth: Did you see the maneuverability of the Lakota at 0:25, much better than a STO cruiser. (just saying)
Let me bring up evidence on my own:
No Hero bonus here, just a bunch of arrogant kids how think a Escort can take on a Cruiser.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg7_dnDx_l8&feature=related
Althrough they have a filed battleplan and they (think they) know where the weak spot on the cruiser is, they are still lightyears away from destroying that ship.
Anyway their result was rather dissappointing.:D:D
My point:
In "real" Star Trek escorts are NOT the extremely overpowered ships they are in STO. It's the devs that made them that way, because they are some Star Wars fans making a StarTrek game and have no idea about Star Trek ships.
OT:
I don't want to start talking about Klingon vs. Federation Cruisers, i think first and foremost ALL Cruisers should get at least two of this:
[*]More Firepower.
[*]More Maneuverability.
[*]More tactical BOFF and Console slots. (At least 1 additional Lt., especially older STO ships like the T5 Cruisers.)
[*]A higher Energy output, depending on the mass/inertia of the ship.
Thank you for reading.
Low Damage: When you have low damage you are no threat therefore escorts are able to tank you with no fear and you will be picked off last in any team fight situation and be purely useless.
Solution: Change the mechanics to where beam weapons installed on Cruisers fire instead of 6 shots per cycle only fire 1 but increase the damage by 600%. Here is what I mean. Take a base phaser beam of 800 damage but instead of firing " 6 " 800's like you normally would you would fire only " 1 " 4800 beam shot and still would have to wait 6 seconds to fire again. This will give an incentive to do decent burst damage and make situations happen in many if not all scenarios. This will also involve changing FAW and BO to reflect these changes.
Bad Mechanics: Federation Cruisers need stronger base shield and hull mechanics and vice versa for Klingon Cruisers.
Solution: Increase ONLY Federation Cruisers base shield mechanics by 25%. Increase ALL federation ship base hull by 15% to reflect the quality of their ships. Reduce ALL klingons ship base shield by 10%. Reduce ALL klingons ship base hull by 15% due to poor materials and being much faster than the federation counterparts.
Faction Flavor: Federation Cruisers are better designed with better materials than the Klingon Cruisers. If you are going to make them so slow they need to have much better hull points and shields to reflect this.
Solution: Federation Cruisers as well as any of the federation ships should have 3 qualities to make them unique. Stronger shields than any faction, stronger hull than any faction and slower moving ships. For Klingons it should be weaker shields than any faction, weaker hull than any faction and faster moving ships. This means ALL ships involded bought through C-Store, earned, whatever. NO EXCEPTIONS. See " Bad Mechanics "
BO Layout: Almost all cruiser layouts for BO are terrible except the Oddy. The worst is the Galaxy X Class by far.
Solution: Cruisers are Multi-Role ships. Redesign the BO layouts to make them univeral to combat the limitations of functionality.
End Result: Federation Cruisers as well as other ships will have a certain qualities that will outshine other factions. Despite being slow they will be have to have decent firepower not like a escort but will be able to do damage and be much tougher than in the current state and actually be feared. Keep in mind that the Federation is a Defensive based faction.
Klingons Cruisers as well other ships in the empire will still be able to perform their roles perfectly but will have to rely more on their cloaking technology than ever before due to the balance pass. Keep in mind that the Klingon Empire is a offensive based faction.
Romulans will be a faction in the game soon and will be more Def/Off balance faction in the near future.
What the Cruisers are lacking is competitive armaments, and movement speed. Both in a straight line and when attempting to make a turn.
Where the Engineers are lacking is in abilities that can make them into a powerful but not OP choice. Right now Engineers carry no real DPS increasing abilities, unlike their Tactical Captain counterparts who get plenty of them and then the ships they fly offer much improved options for dealing damage over what the Cruisers are capable of doing.
When it comes to Tactical abilities from Bridge Officers the Cruisers that are without Universal slots are limited to 2 sometimes 3 Tactical abilities. Generally speaking Ensign Tactical abilities are considered less than ideal.
Look at an Escort who on average has up to 5+ options available to them.
The Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit has 3 Tactical BOff openings. Allowing for an insane 8 Tactical Abilities to be trained and used.
The Dread only has 3 available... that is a +5 advantage for the FTER(lol).
Now add onto that the number of damage increasing abilities from a Tac Captain vs those of an Engineer.
Tac Captain: 4
Eng Captain: 0
Bumping the total in this example to a +9 DD ability advantage and 12 overall!
Only the Tac Odyssey Cruiser with its two open Universal BOff slots makes a half hearted effort to close this gap. At least the Tac Odyssey and the Standard Odyssey have access to Attack Pattern Omega!
This in mind... read:
Yeeeah... -.-
If I am mistaken, my apologies and if I may, I will attempt to further explain myself for the benefit of myself and others.
The point I was trying to make is that I have shifted my focus from the ships themselves and believe the issues to be from the powers that affect ship performance.
While I know that in reality, lawl, Cruisers would be the main DD and meatshields, I understand that it will not happen in this game. Nor am I currently advocating for it.
What I am attempting illustrate is the size of the gap that exists and where a large part of it comes from.
Access to powers.
The BOff layout on Tac ships allows them to pick up some of the most useful survival abilities from the both the Engineering side of things and the Science side of things, while allowing full access to the best of the Tactical abilities.
Due to their innate defense from movement, things like EPtS is not as useful as say RSP or HE. You don't pick up Science Team due to it sharing a cool down with Tac Team, same for Eng Team.
Also due to their +15 to weapons and slower rate of fire on Cannons, they don't need things like EPtW like a Cruiser or Science vessel does.
Do you see where I am going with this?
A Cruiser player is does not have an innate defense comparable to an Escort from movement so things like EPtS are more of a need rather than a perk.
Being considered as a healer we find ourselves trying to choose between Eng/Sci/Tac Teams. We also have to take into consideration which will function best for a fellow player rather than just for ourselves.
Since we equip rapid firing weapons such as the beam array, we see a much more drastic effect on our weapon energy. This means that in PvP or combat heavy PvE we are forced to carry at least one additional way of boosting that power level in order to keep it at appreciable levels for dps. Two if we plan on going as dps.
Also, as we are consider to be the "tanks" of the game that means we are looking at things like EPtS WITH RSP. Not a one or the other type thing. Also means hull or shield heals, since going both to often tends to tie our hands in one way or another.
The Escort focuses on one thing. Damage.
The Cruiser focuses on healing self, others, support of others, tanking and general token dps contribution.
But we do not have the flexibility(as has been mentioned) in our layout to allow us to accomplish this. Even swapping out BOffs in-between things does not allow us to function to our half potential.
The Escort doesn't need anything above Lt. levels from Science or Engineering.
But we as Cruisers do need more than just Ensign and Lt. level abilities from Tac and would like a chance at some from Science.
Similarly if we look at console breakdowns we see a similar dilemma unfold itself as we begin to run into the dimishing returns issue with Eng consoles where as they do not with Tac consoles. Meaning we can make it so that we can indeed live forever... but so will the enemy. But a Tac Captain doesn't need to live forever because he just increased his damage output by yet another XX%.
In PvP tanks are a misnomer as they serve no function in PvP.
You don't attack a tank in PvP, there isn't a reason to. You don't want to waste all day killing it, and you know it can't kill you so what do you do? You stomp the guys that do actually pose a threat, then run away laughing as the tank lumbers after you asking you to stop. (Come back here! I'll bite your legs off!)
You have it backwards, HE and RSP I rarely use, they are my panic buttons. EPTS is something I use far far more often on my escort. Note that I actually have all 3, not one or the other, all 3. Conversely my engi cruiser has constant tac team uptime, EPTW3 and a copy of APB and APO. Its hard to believe how much better things work out when a tough target has the APB debuff lol
I think the real problem is that too many cruisers have boff layouts that make them unsuitable for combat. In particular the Galaxy and Starcruiser come to mind with their ONE Lt. Tac Boff station. I am convinced these ships were designed to deal with types of encounters that simply don't exist in STO, encounters more akin to a WoW raid boss where such overspecialization might have been desirable. Maybe at one time STO was envisioned to have WoW style space raids? Or maybe its something simpler, like they wanted to have 3 cruisers that leaned towards tac, engi and sci, and the Assault Cruiser lucked out.
The solution to the problem caused by this is simple although unsatisfying, steering all new and current players away from anything with less than 3 tac boff powers.
Same here, I was not saying your idea is bad, its a great idea, but from what I have seen with the devs they are a bit lazy to me. Anyway that is what I talking about, the 2 ideas and you and your friend have come up are great they should add these, plus maybe a rapid fire beam array to fire at a faster rate but with sort range and medium dps or something like that, or maybe the devs could just make the escorts powers/abilities less powerful so it does not shred a cruiser in seconds, the probably I see is turn rate, low power and low dps, with cruisers I can tank very well for while until the whole team is on me or in a 1v1 its 50/50 until they spam there rapid cannons plus boost to weapons power etc.
Problem 1 - Cryptic deciding on Fed cruisers being pure tanks and healers and giving escorts such superior firepower
a) The majority of us are Trek fans and I suspect a healthy portion of us prefer cruisers. The problem is the game has relegated them to a support role (which isn't needed much outside of PvP) and made the gap in firepower between an escort and a cruiser so great that flying an escort is a no brainer. At worst cruisers should have been treated as a jack-of-all-trades master of none class, with a 4th class specifically focused on engineering (and SCE class if you will).
b) A cruiser is a much larger ship and as such should have more powerful weapons. Instead the smaller more mobile ships have all the heavy weapons.
c) Dual Heavy Cannons/Dual Cannons - Lets face it, there's a HUGE gap in damage between a beam array and a dual heavy cannon.
d) Torps are pretty useless except against unshielded targets. Even then in PvP every one has generally enough kinetic resists to make them do pretty worthless damage if they don't crit.
e) Escorts have only about 1000 less shield HP then a cruiser.
Problem 2 - Season 1's change to ship skills
Link - http://www.stowiki.org/Release_notes/20100324
This resulted in a boost to hull and shields and pushed escorts out of the danger zone and ended them being glass cannons. Strangely enough it also resulted in Klingons losing their lower hull/shield disadvantage (different stat boost originally?).
With the change to the recent skill table, it appears to have took this into consideration so people will have the same hull and shields they did with the season 1 change.
Problem 2 - Season 1.2's change to weapon power drain mechanics.
Link - http://www.stowiki.org/Release_notes/20100603
Cryptics changing of how weapon power drains work gave a massive advantage to escorts and took away the EPS flow reg (and an engineers EPS power transfer) advantage from cruisers. Before the change, a cruiser could stack EPS flow regulators to allow it to compete with an escort. Now the only reason to take an EPS flow reg is for beam overload.
Not only that, but it took away some of the thinking aspect of space combat.
Problem 4 - Cryptic giving the tactical escort retrofit another engineering console slot.
Link - http://www.stowiki.org/Release_notes/20111201
Problem 5a - Season 2's Inclusion of field generators
Link - There are no release notes or other documentation found that mention field generators being added to the game. If I remember correctly they were added the same time the emblem currency was added.
If the last shield and hull buff took the Escorts out of the glass cannon zone, this firmly took them out of the danger zone. Now escorts had plenty of room to tank and resist alpha strikes.
Problem 5b - Field Generators becoming science consoles and stackable
Link - http://www.stowiki.org/Release_notes/20120202
Link - http://www.stowiki.org/Release_notes/20120329
This removed one of the biggest advantages cruisers had in the way of shield tanking. A very questionable solution to the old science console problem. Now you can get advanced escorts with more shields than an assault cruiser.
Problem 6 - Escorts innate 10% bonus defense.
Link - http://www.stowiki.org/Release_notes/20110202
Problem 7 - Unintended nerf to power boost consoles
Link - Not documented
Rare Mk XI engineer power boost consoles used to increase power by +7, now it's a worthless +3.5.
All in all this is why I dumped my cruiser for an escort about a year ago. The only real regret I have is that I prefer the larger ships, but escorts are just so much more superior.
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
thats actually a perfect observation of the problem with cruisers or lets say the problem people have with cruisers. A cruiser with less than 3 tac boff slots is undesireable to say the least. But there are many cruisers that have more than 3 tac boff slots...which make them certainly not perfect for combat, but competitive even to some escorts. (but those are mostly on the klingon side right now: karfi, fleet vorcha, bortasque tac variant)
atleast 3 are available to fed players anyway. basically all cruisers with 3 or more tac console slots.
Buffing cruiser generally damage wise would turn the cruisers that are already good dmg dealers into absolut overpowered super weapons far better than escorts are now. In my opinion the fleet vorcha is already at this point. i'm actually considering to get one for my klingon tactical captain, because it has such a compelling boff layout and overall a nice combination of tanking and dmg. But in my opinion overpowered.
Nice list here, Im glad you laid out the problems now we need to come up with some solutions. Cruiser I my mind are supposed to be the middle man, good at DPS, tanking and science but not very good, that why I went with sovereign class other then being my top fav ship I love its boff layout it because it is well balanced. To me thats how the cruiser should be but if there are those are more specific e.g. the tac cruiser then sure it should be more tac then but to balance it out needs to take away something, like how the Fleet AC boff layout was shown on tribble, more tac and less eng.
So I think the devs should change the power settings back to the way it was, reduce cannon damage a bit and increase beam array damage a bit. Also introduce other types of weapons as misterde3 suggested, a beam array high in damage/dps but to balance it out, sorten the range of the weapon and also maybe a long range beam array but less damage/dps or have the long rane beam array also have it be a rapid fire beam array.
Kid. You seemed to have answered to me. I didn't read. I refuse to read so long as you do not ditch the green/orange/purple fonts and stop abusing the caps lock key.
Whatever your beef with my eyes (and those of everyone unlucky enough to be confronted by your immature font) and that innocent key, it is undeserved.
Neither of them has ever done anything to harm you.
Im not even using field generators.
Only defensive boff skills are 2x Epower to shields 1 and a hazard emitter.
Borg Proc and BFI doffs FTW!!!
It is not any single thing causing this problem but underlying flaws in soo many system mechanics it is not even funny.
A focus on resists to tank instead of HP or buffer makes healing so insanely effective.
Number of easy ways to get enough tank without real sacrifices.
DPS boosts based upon ships potential, healing abilities are not.
Etc, Etc, Etc....
The other really funny thing? An escort and a cruiser with no consoles or boff abilities equipped just shield/engine/deflector which one do you think has more tank? Its not the cruiser..
Oh God! Yes Please!
the tankiest escort + eng captain, 6 out of 12 boff powers dedicated to healing and resist i suppose, and you wonder why you could tank elite stfs?
try the same thing with a tac captain or a sci captain on a MVAE or a defiant, and you will see that tanking is not the best idea in an escort.
thats simply due to the higher def rating. cruiser can still take more hits...with atleast 10k more HP, and a slight edge on SP.
also concerning the def values...oddy starcruiser (the one i use) has 60% def...fleet defiant 76% def. both at max speed powerlevel at around 46.
the fact that i can't be on target with an escort while going max speed cuts that rating nearly in half. a sacrifice i do not need to make in a broadsiding beam cruiser to stay on target, meaning the cruiser has actually more def than the escort while fireing on targets. you can do hit and run maneuvers, but that cuts escort overall dps in half.
also consider that resistance counts only for hull dmg...aslong as shields are up it is rather unimportant. But it is true that you can get some decent tank abilities rather easy, even on escorts. (RSP, TSS, HE, PH, etc...)
What do you mean by "DPS boost based on ship potential, healing not" i can't understand. if you want more healing you increase aux...therefore losing energy somewhere else.
it would only be overpowered in your opinion because it might put them on a par with your pretty little escorts, as for klingon Battlecruisers being OP, they're not, they are simply doing their job (shock horror)
also as it is I have min power in both engines and aux to make my damage:tank ratio the best I can have therefore Beam damage needs a boost, I know as an escort pilot I'd love for the cruiser firing beams over my head to be doing good damage to supplement my own, that way it it doesn't matter if I can't manage my full 20K DPS because the supporting cruiser is doing just that and thereby THEIR JOB
you misread that, i simply refered to the fleet vorcha as overpowered. it not only has the highest cruiser turnrate, it can equip dual cannons, cloak, and has 40k hull.
the normal version and the negh'var have similar turnrates, yes...but lack the BOFF powers to spike the dual cannon damage in a threatening way. The vorcha is already a very potent damage dealing cruiser as she is, adding 3 tac boff slots increased that potential drastically.
that means...a tank delivering the same, and even more (8 weapons slots) dmg while still maintaining access to abilities like RSP3 or AUXtoSIF3. and being able to have EPtS and EPtW. maybe even throw in a vent warp plasma just for fun. I forgot directed energy modulation in combination with DHC...
but it is not actually the ability to have all that together...it is the high turnrate that makes that cruiser OP in my opinion. That vor'cha does bring her cannons on target not only against slow moving NPC's...also in PVP they can do that.
so thats why a fleet assault cruiser (and the oddy tac cruiser) on fed side wouldn't be overpowered even with the same BOFF layout...since even if she could use dual cannons...she wouldn't be able to keep them too long on the target with only 7 turnrate.
and a 8 beam broadside by such a cruiser is only a little bit less dangerous than a frontal assault of an escort. the damage is nearly the same...only the spike dmg is smaller on a cruiser.
Intriguing. Or fascinating as some would say :P
It sounds like an actual Vorcha, which is a good thing. Scary too.
Now in TNG the Vorcha wasn't on par with the Galaxy as it was more of a replacement for the aging D-7 design and it was the Negh'Var that was the Galaxy's superior firepower counterpart.
Either way, that ship is quite a tempting reason to create a Klingon.
I disagree with your statement of the damage from a Cruiser's broadside being similar to a frontal assault from an Escort. But may I have the weapon layout you would use on this particular Vorcha so I can do some comparison between it and an 8 beam Cruiser?
I would suggest he would use 4 DHCs and 4 Turrets of either Mk XII [Borg] or fleet standard
Heh... I like this guy, but alas he contributes not to this thread.
Well all I can say is that if you don't bother to read the first post in a thread, why bother to respond at all? Do us all the courtesy of not wasting our time with a response that is not constructive in any way shape or form.
Now that that's dealt with, baudl is right (god I can't believe I am saying this). I recently did some tests in elite stfs and in 1v1s with a few of my friends, and I found that after exactly 60 seconds of blasting a target's head in, my FPE with an engi captain was able to sustain about 8k dps with all buffs and abilities going. I was cycling TT1 and CRFs almost constantly in conjunction with APB1 and 2, and again a consistent 8k dps running full DHCs and turrets.
Now I did the same thing with only weapons firing, NO buffs of any kind. My dps dropped dramatically down to about 3.5k. That's a drop to roughly 40% of my standard dps on my FPE. I did a few more runs (after letting my friend heal, thank god that Oddys have such a high heal rate lol). I found that the primary increasers of damage were CRF and APB. TT helped but the damage increase was negligible.
Now I then grabbed my AC and ran the same test with equivalent weapons, 7 beam arrays. After 60 seconds of pounding, my dps was only around 4200 cycling abilities and buffs. HOWEVER the only tactical abilities I was running were TT1 and APB1, since that's all I had available with limited tac BOff slots.
Again, I then did weapons only. My dps dropped to 3200. So a 25% reduction give or take. I found the interesting part was that the AC using just weapons was hitting only 600 dps less than my FPE doing the same thing. My friend and I had a quick discussion and then ran one more test.
I proceeded to dishonor the USS Naglfar with 7 beam arrays and ran the full buffs test again, but this time cycling BFAW, TT1, and APB1 and 2 (should be noted, only one copy of BFAW, don't have another copy on my tac officer, since it has TS1 instead). This is where it got interesting. After 60 seconds of firing and cycling all the abilities, my FPE was consistently hitting 6k dps, with spikes up to 6500 when I used BFAW.
We then ran the same test with just the 7 beam arrays, and it was IDENTICAL to the AC running just beam arrays. Not really a surprise, but just a confirmation of something we already figured.
So conclusions of test:
Shooters:
Eqipment: Phaser DHCs mk XI Common, Phaser Turrets mk XI Common, Phaser Beam Arrays mk XI Common, NO PHASER RELAYS
USS Naglfar (Fleet Patrol Escort)
4 DHCs + 3 Turrets + Buffs: 8k DPS
4 DHCs + 3 Turrets: 3500
7 BAs + Buffs: 6k, 6500 spikes
7 BAs: 3200
USS Void Guardian (Assault Cruiser)
7 BAs + Buffs: 4200 dps
7 BAs: 3200
Target:
USS Phlegm (Odyssey Tactical Cruiser)
No Consoles, Shields, Deflector, Engines, Weapons. Just a floating hulk essentially XD.
We used Phasers because they were easy and cheap to get, in addition to the fact that their proc wouldn't do anything if the target had no shields. We also decided to do it against straight hull since it would be easiest to track dps and you don't have to take shield heal into acc. We also had him separated saucer to reduce his crew heals, and we also blasted away most of his crew with torpedoes and then healed him with Eng teams to get as static a test as possible.
So Final Conclusion:
Baudl and friends are right, it's BOff slots + tactical consoles. Not the escorts. At least when it comes to damage dealing. But I still say they're too tanky.
But before you start preening yourself, it also comes down to weapons. DHCs and Turrets have a similar dps to Beam Arrays, but have more abilities that enhance them, and/or those abilities are better at enhancing them.
Just some numbers since that's what everyone is always asking for.