Kid. You seemed to have answered to me. I didn't read. I refuse to read so long as you do not ditch the green/orange/purple fonts and stop abusing the caps lock key.
Whatever your beef with my eyes (and those of everyone unlucky enough to be confronted by your immature font) and that innocent key, it is undeserved.
Neither of them has ever done anything to harm you.
Heh... I like this guy, but alas he contributes not to this thread.
Well all I can say is that if you don't bother to read the first post in a thread, why bother to respond at all? Do us all the courtesy of not wasting our time with a response that is not constructive in any way shape or form.
Now that that's dealt with, baudl is right (god I can't believe I am saying this). I recently did some tests in elite stfs and in 1v1s with a few of my friends, and I found that after exactly 60 seconds of blasting a target's head in, my FPE with an engi captain was able to sustain about 8k dps with all buffs and abilities going. I was cycling TT1 and CRFs almost constantly in conjunction with APB1 and 2, and again a consistent 8k dps running full DHCs and turrets.
Now I did the same thing with only weapons firing, NO buffs of any kind. My dps dropped dramatically down to about 3.5k. That's a drop to roughly 40% of my standard dps on my FPE. I did a few more runs (after letting my friend heal, thank god that Oddys have such a high heal rate lol). I found that the primary increasers of damage were CRF and APB. TT helped but the damage increase was negligible.
Now I then grabbed my AC and ran the same test with equivalent weapons, 7 beam arrays. After 60 seconds of pounding, my dps was only around 4200 cycling abilities and buffs. HOWEVER the only tactical abilities I was running were TT1 and APB1, since that's all I had available with limited tac BOff slots.
Again, I then did weapons only. My dps dropped to 3200. So a 25% reduction give or take. I found the interesting part was that the AC using just weapons was hitting only 600 dps less than my FPE doing the same thing. My friend and I had a quick discussion and then ran one more test.
I proceeded to dishonor the USS Naglfar with 7 beam arrays and ran the full buffs test again, but this time cycling BFAW, TT1, and APB1 and 2 (should be noted, only one copy of BFAW, don't have another copy on my tac officer, since it has TS1 instead). This is where it got interesting. After 60 seconds of firing and cycling all the abilities, my FPE was consistently hitting 6k dps, with spikes up to 6500 when I used BFAW.
We then ran the same test with just the 7 beam arrays, and it was IDENTICAL to the AC running just beam arrays. Not really a surprise, but just a confirmation of something we already figured.
So conclusions of test:
Shooters:
Eqipment: Phaser DHCs mk XI Common, Phaser Turrets mk XI Common, Phaser Beam Arrays mk XI Common, NO PHASER RELAYS
USS Void Guardian (Assault Cruiser)
7 BAs + Buffs: 4200 dps
7 BAs: 3200
Target:
USS Phlegm (Odyssey Tactical Cruiser)
No Consoles, Shields, Deflector, Engines, Weapons. Just a floating hulk essentially XD.
We used Phasers because they were easy and cheap to get, in addition to the fact that their proc wouldn't do anything if the target had no shields. We also decided to do it against straight hull since it would be easiest to track dps and you don't have to take shield heal into acc. We also had him separated saucer to reduce his crew heals, and we also blasted away most of his crew with torpedoes and then healed him with Eng teams to get as static a test as possible.
So Final Conclusion:
Baudl and friends are right, it's BOff slots + tactical consoles. Not the escorts. At least when it comes to damage dealing. But I still say they're too tanky.
But before you start preening yourself, it also comes down to weapons. DHCs and Turrets have a similar dps to Beam Arrays, but have more abilities that enhance them, and/or those abilities are better at enhancing them.
Just some numbers since that's what everyone is always asking for.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Baudl and friends are right, it's BOff slots + tactical consoles. Not the escorts. At least when it comes to damage dealing. But I still say they're too tanky.
But before you start preening yourself, it also comes down to weapons. DHCs and Turrets have a similar dps to Beam Arrays, but have more abilities that enhance them, and/or those abilities are better at enhancing them.
Just some numbers since that's what everyone is always asking for.
The number of abilities is the same.
2 for Beams. FAW and BO.
2 Torps. TS and HY.
2 for Cannons. CSF and CRF.
Difference is that they have access to all 3 ranks of the above abilities. The best we can hope for is a rank II of a single ability. They can have rank 2 and 3 of the Cannon abilities on top of Torp abilities.
Where weapons are concerned, Cannons seem to have a much higher shield penetration rate than other energy weapon types. And they have the highest DPS climb between ranks. MkXI -->MkXII
The number of abilities is the same.
2 for Beams. FAW and BO.
2 Torps. TS and HY.
2 for Cannons. CSF and CRF.
Difference is that they have access to all 3 ranks of the above abilities. The best we can hope for is a rank II of a single ability. They can have rank 2 and 3 of the Cannon abilities on top of Torp abilities.
Where weapons are concerned, Cannons seem to have a much higher shield penetration rate than other energy weapon types. And they have the highest DPS climb between ranks. MkXI -->MkXII
That would be why I added that cannon abilities seem more effective at enhancing them. I know that the abilities are the same. However what I meant is that TT1 enhances cannons far better, since it adds 10 to the base damage, and we all know that cannons have a higher modifier on them, which increases their damage.
I didn't do a test with shields up, which I will probably do soon, but I just wanted to get a baseline to see if some of the comments made were accurate, so I did. But I still proved at least some of the conclusions correct, the ones about BOff abilities making that large of a difference, since you can see that the dps was almost identical without using BOff abilities.
However this simply goes along with what's been said this whole time, escorts can do that much more damage simply because they are designed to be the main damage dealer. But that still doesn't change the fact that cruisers becoming the main damage dealers is NOT what I am asking for.
So in all honesty I have no idea why I ran this test lol...
Also, I ran full cannons on the FPE, no torps.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
the tankiest escort + eng captain, 6 out of 12 boff powers dedicated to healing and resist i suppose, and you wonder why you could tank elite stfs?
try the same thing with a tac captain or a sci captain on a MVAE or a defiant, and you will see that tanking is not the best idea in an escort.
thats simply due to the higher def rating. cruiser can still take more hits...with atleast 10k more HP, and a slight edge on SP.
also concerning the def values...oddy starcruiser (the one i use) has 60% def...fleet defiant 76% def. both at max speed powerlevel at around 46.
the fact that i can't be on target with an escort while going max speed cuts that rating nearly in half. a sacrifice i do not need to make in a broadsiding beam cruiser to stay on target, meaning the cruiser has actually more def than the escort while fireing on targets. you can do hit and run maneuvers, but that cuts escort overall dps in half.
also consider that resistance counts only for hull dmg...aslong as shields are up it is rather unimportant. But it is true that you can get some decent tank abilities rather easy, even on escorts. (RSP, TSS, HE, PH, etc...)
What do you mean by "DPS boost based on ship potential, healing not" i can't understand. if you want more healing you increase aux...therefore losing energy somewhere else.
Try 3 boff powers dedicated to healing/defense not 6. And what on earth is there that is useful to the point of heals in the ensign slot anyway. Oh right tac team got those too ok 5 skills that i honestly couldn't think of anything else to use instead. Maybe an extra sci ability instead of the haz emitter but that's just crazy talk.
Oh and aside from crazy gate torp one shots or a dono torp spread when BoI is down I can and have tanked everything an elite STF can throw at me in a defiant with a tac, and an MVAE with a sci. Its not hard.
Damage potential of abilities based on the ship while healing is not is pretty easy to explain, although it is all very relative to gear and other abilities used so this is an extreme oversimplification.
An escort with DHCs (or cruiser for that matter) will get more raw damage out of CRF than another ship with regular cannons. A ship using FAW will get more raw damage with more beams. A boat using CRF and/or FAW will get more raw damage when using them with AP:O, AP:B (vs hull), and DEM (oh wait that's bugged atm). CRF and the APs even scale with your +dmg tac consoles.
What effects your Epower to shield? Just cap. skill not the ship or shield equipped. Same with BoI doffs, TSS, etc. Although some are effected by AUX power this is true and why we got batteries.
That leads to the following effect
- DPS ship has higher base DPS, and has higher modifiers from boff abilities to damage.
- Tanky ship has similar base Tank, but the same modifiers from boff abilities to tank.
- You can replace tank with healer
So lets just make up some numbers for effect here
DPS Ship: 3k raw DPS, 50k EHP
Tanky Ship: 2k raw DPS, 60k EHP
DPS ship takes more DPS abilities while tanky ship takes more tank abilities but both mix a bit. DPS abilities double damage for tanky ship and triple it for DPS ship. Tank abilities add 40k EHP for DPS ship and tanky ship gains 60k. Now we get
I use the terms DPS and Tanky because in all honesty the real capability of a ship is decided more by its boff arrangement than the type. This is how things scale for the most part. Now it is true that more resistance makes your shield heal stronger (so EPTS 3 is significantly stronger than EPTS 1) but so does a higher defense and in PvE you only need enough survivability to kill the target so the point is moot.
so my addition to this thread is this... Because of the reduced viability of the cruiser I refrain from team activity. I want to play a engineer captain in a cruiser, because it was meant to be, since this is not acceptable to the majority of the player base I refuse to engage in team play because i do not wanting to compromise my game style.
At the same time I'm questioned as to why I play MMOs at all since I don't seem seem to be a team player. The answer, which i seldom give out, is that i'm not content to play a cookie cutter build in a manner prescribed by someone else simply because DPS rules. Roles need to be made more distinct, tanks should tank, sci's IMHO should focus on CC and healing and all should be welcomed into a team environment.
Instead Tanks lack DPS, CC has been nerfed to uselessness and nobody cares about anything but DPS.
This seriously needs to be changed, if you want the solo population of STO to have anything to do with the rest of the community.
EDIT: Went back to reread my post after someone later in the thread found it "bewildering". So reading it again, yeah i'm kinna bewildered too. I'm not sure what i was thinking when i wrote this but I won't snip it, i'll take responsibility for the stupid things I sometimes write.
so my addition to this thread is this... Because of the reduced viability of the cruiser I refrain from team activity. I want to play a engineer captain in a cruiser, because it was meant to be, since this is not acceptable to the majority of the player base I refuse to engage in team play because i do not wanting to compromise my game style.
At the same time I'm questioned as to why I play MMOs at all since I don't seem seem to be a team player. The answer, which i seldom give out, is that i'm not content to play a cookie cutter build in a manner prescribed by someone else simply because DPS rules. Roles need to be made more distinct, tanks should tank, sci's IMHO should focus on CC and healing and all should be welcomed into a team environment.
Instead Tanks lack DPS, CC has been nerfed to uselessness and nobody cares about anything but DPS.
This seriously needs to be changed, if you want the solo population of STO to have anything to do with the rest of the community.
I find it baffling that first you complain about wanting to play your way... and then you want to force more strict roles on players. Did you ask all of them if they wanted to have a more rigid trinity? I know I certainly don't.
It may also surprise some that the so called super escorts are more or less the same build with only some minor variations. A lot is sacrificed for them to do what they do, its called min/maxing and most self styled "serious" or "hardcore" players do it.
So how can players go in with their own unique non maximized builds and expect to do well? It doesn't matter whether you take an escort, cruiser or sci vessel, if its a weak build its not going to do well.
I think that if you look at the successful PvE cruiser builds you'll see a lot of similar build design ideas. Mostly doing everything to maximize DPS while devoting just enough of the build to defenses to survive while tanking. They usually don't even have heals specifically meant for others; which is reasonable in the context of them tanking all the larger enemies.
When you're talking about min/maxing it only makes sense if both things being compared are min/maxed, otherwise there's no point. You can't compare a min/maxed escort to a non-optimized escort or cruiser, it will never make sense. Just last night I had the pleasure of doing all 3 Elite STFs with a truly optimized cruiser and sci vessel in the group... It was unbelievably smooth. The sci vessel did CC, drains, etc (i wish I could expand more on it but Sci Vessels are something I haven't really used yet); while the cruiser held aggro against 2 very aggressive escorts without dying or suffering any mayor inconvenience beyond one disconnect. Its a pity so many of the really good Sci vessel and cruiser captains almost never do pugs anymore, so less experienced players really have no idea what to go for. Instead they all assume that staying at max range forever will work against Tac Cubes. How can they not if they don't see an example to follow and the game teaches them to do exactly that?
As to the DPS being determined more by BOff layout that is indeed the case. Its why I've said before some cruisers are just too tanky oriented. In particular the Starcruiser and Galaxy come to mind (additionally some extra turning would work wonders for the fun factor of cruisers). Conversely, the Free Ody my engi uses, with a Universal Lt Cmr and a Lt.. Tac boff stations does pretty well, on top of an always active EPTW3. In essence I play it like a large stately escort and its worked out very well. Yes, even the free version they handed out is a pretty powerful ship so my engi may have an advantage, but it was the last semi cool free thing I recall Cryptic giving out so you'd better believe i'll use it!
Escort nerf is impossible - I can imagine all thos cries about escorts being squishy so it wont happen.
But bringing cruiser up to the escort level when it comes to dagmage is not that much of a problem I think. The main problem are beam arrays. They are already better then cannons in regard of range, but should be even better. And the second is the weapons coverage - better arcs for beams would be great for PvP, but also in PvE cruisers will gain a lot of profit. Als there is a NEED to apply a nerf bat to Tactical Team.
Now, how to do this:
1) Beams should have reverse power/range scale. This means that they should have 100% of damage at 10km and gain damage when target comes close. Not much, but still to make it more dangerous to oponent to come close to the cruiser. And at least they should have 100% damage on all ranges.
2) This is mainly for PvP, but the biggest gripe for a cruiser is escort manoeuvrability. Not only escort has better innate defence, but it is also fast an manoeuvrable enough to stay on the cruiser (often literally sit on him) and avoid 50% of his weapons. This is also unacceptable becasue it makes escort close to imprevious to cruisers fire. Beams should have either 360 deg. arc, or at least high above 300 to minimize the gap and possibility to avoid it's weapons.
3) Tactical Team should have the shield redistribution scalable. It should be just as fast as manual redistribution at TT 1, 25-50% faster then manual at TT 2 and 50-75% better at TT 3. This will remove the plaque of escorts redistributing their shields faster then beam eats them and force those escorts that want to retain their shield tank to use high level tactical BOFF slots to get TT 2 or TT 3. It will also remove the highest level of TT and shield redistribution from most of cruiser and sci-ship as it is, after all tactical skill. And thos ships have their eng and sci powers to compensate and shield-tank in other way.
1) Beams should have reverse power/range scale. This means that they should have 100% of damage at 10km and gain damage when target comes close. Not much, but still to make it more dangerous to oponent to come close to the cruiser. And at least they should have 100% damage on all ranges.
This alone makes me think you don't really understand what you're proposing.
It may looks so, but I do. Currents escorts can avoid (not tank) most damage then cruiser can dish out. It needs to change. And with the way beams and accuracy operate - it wont until you tweek the beams. Or reduces the survivability of escorts.
Nerfing escorts wont happen for obvious reason. They will never become glass cannons they once were. So we need to make main weapon of cruisers: beam array more damaging (not necessarily powerful). This means either better power overall (wont happen) or better ability to deliver damage. This means changing firing arc and range. Beams wont go over 10k, it wont happen although could be cool. But they can/should deliver more power over range. Currently for cruisers the window of opportunity to deliver full firepower is not big enough to do any harm to escort. And after this window closes the escort sits on it's six and cruiser don't have a way to deliver more then 50% of damage (or less if it's mine-heavy build or something like this).
And it wont be that harmful, not for PvP. Time from engagement to the range when DHC/DC reaches it's full potential is seconds. Less the firing cycle of beam array. Such tweak will make the beams better weapons, but it still wont make them more powerful the DHC.
Of course escorts will cry "OP" because in PvP they will get closer to the glass cannons status they once were. But in PvE this may review the cruisers as viable option for fast, DPS based (means - all) missions.
1) Beams should have reverse power/range scale. This means that they should have 100% of damage at 10km and gain damage when target comes close. Not much, but still to make it more dangerous to oponent to come close to the cruiser. And at least they should have 100% damage on all ranges.
3) Tactical Team should have the shield redistribution scalable. It should be just as fast as manual redistribution at TT 1, 25-50% faster then manual at TT 2 and 50-75% better at TT 3. This will remove the plaque of escorts redistributing their shields faster then beam eats them and force those escorts that want to retain their shield tank to use high level tactical BOFF slots to get TT 2 or TT 3. It will also remove the highest level of TT and shield redistribution from most of cruiser and sci-ship as it is, after all tactical skill. And thos ships have their eng and sci powers to compensate and shield-tank in other way.
1) I can see what I think you were trying to do here and I disagree that they should do that much damage at 10km, I do think that at 10km a beam array should still lay down 50-75% of it's damage and do 100% at =<1km as this would help to balance them against escorts in terms of play style in that cruisers aren't supposed to get up close and personal (where escorts are), doing so leads to quicker movement around ones target and thus less damage on target, also it allows escorts more room to move as the cruisers don't need to be up close to get the much needed damage.
3) Are you by any chance a poor tank? TT is the tanks most important skill, you can't tank on manual distribution, it doesn't move fast enough, if anything I think TT should remain as is. I don't fancy my tank ability nerfed to go with my poor damage, I'd have absolutely no purpose in the game
I am in favor of the way things are as the heavy ships are for more tactical/ less action oriented players, I believe for a good adrenaline rush you need a good computer and a great escort challenge(-: It would be best if escorts are well balanced though, always fight in pack that way you are assured escort cover when you heal them)
As of you who read what I post know, I am a huge fan of balance and the restoration of the Cruiser from backseat healer to the heart of the fleet. Now we all know that in current STO, escorts rule the roost, cruisers are stuck in healer spots, and science ships are just looked at with the "wtf are they doing here" attitude (first part to get argued no doubt in responses to this thread)..
Simcore Alien lieutenant general, house of duras Human vice admiral, icarus fleet
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]=/\='...to boldly go, where no game has gone before...'=/\=
Are you by any chance a poor tank? TT is the tanks most important skill, you can't tank on manual distribution, it doesn't move fast enough, if anything I think TT should remain as is. I don't fancy my tank ability nerfed to go with my poor damage, I'd have absolutely no purpose in the game
No, I'm not. But today the tanking is about EPtS and TT. With some High Aux TSS for fast shield healing. AuxTo:SIF for hull boost if you need and another high aux skill like HE for even more hull boost. All/most of this can be done by friggin escort. You do not need cruiser for it. Eng/cruiser get RSP to boost resistance and the EPS boost to aux/shields.
And that's without DOFFs that also can be used on escorts.
With nerfed TT cruisers could at least pack some high-level healing/resistance abilities that are not accessible to escorts. And escorts will need to sacrifice lot of firepower (1 lt.cmdr slot for TT 3, 2 slots without DOFFs to speed up CD) to gain similar survivability they have now. Tactical cruiser with need of tank could still use TT 2 (they have lt slot for this).
Ok, this will hurt cruisers, but it will also hurt escorts, I think it will hurt them more then cruisers. I could still pack EPtS 3 on my cruiser and boost it with TSS 2 on aux battery. Escorts to get max EPtS 2 OR TSS 2. Not both. And for sci abilities to work they would still need to sacrifice one slot for aux battery.
forget nerfing because the escorts captains will not b happy, just bring out new weapons that compete, with the cannons. Also maybe reduce the powers/abilities a bit on escorts. Seriously they need to go back to testing the ships they make.
As I read on in this thread there are a lot of terrible cruiser captains.
I combat log all my fleet alerts (its pretty consistent, STFs have too large distance gaps)
As a tac in an escort I used to average 6500 dps.
After one patch that dropped to 5500 dps, I thought I was messed up, obviously they devs changed something.
I bought fleet weapons and my numbers are back to 6500 dps, except against Tholians, they are wicked.
Now when I log fleet mates that I've coached to do damage an eng escort does 4500 dps in a non P2W ship.
A sci cruiser does 3500-4000 dps in excellsior
Normal pug cruisers 1500 dps
So is the problem cruisers or is it that people have no clue what they are doing? You'd be amazed how many tac escorts are running 800 dps.. seriously. The best pug cruiser I've ever seen is 2200 dps outside of our fleet.
Cruisers are more than fine, even 3500 dps as a sci cruiser is very capable, less than 1k difference between an escort.
As I read on in this thread there are a lot of terrible cruiser captains.
I combat log all my fleet alerts (its pretty consistent, STFs have too large distance gaps)
As a tac in an escort I used to average 6500 dps.
After one patch that dropped to 5500 dps, I thought I was messed up, obviously they devs changed something.
I bought fleet weapons and my numbers are back to 6500 dps, except against Tholians, they are wicked.
Now when I log fleet mates that I've coached to do damage an eng escort does 4500 dps in a non P2W ship.
A sci cruiser does 3500-4000 dps in excellsior
Normal pug cruisers 1500 dps
So is the problem cruisers or is it that people have no clue what they are doing? You'd be amazed how many tac escorts are running 800 dps.. seriously. The best pug cruiser I've ever seen is 2200 dps outside of our fleet.
Cruisers are more than fine, even 3500 dps as a sci cruiser is very capable, less than 1k difference between an escort.
I like your stats, and I'm interested in how you came to achieve them, so please... Tell
I like your stats, and I'm interested in how you came to achieve them, so please... Tell
I cannot say what Nicha0 may have as s/he sounds like a far more capable player than I, but I just realized something. All this talk of builds and whatnot... did we ever mention power levels? My cruisers have similar power settings to my escorts, customized to have as much energy to weapons as possible. No build will make a cruiser do decent damage if they take the easier route of simply having full power to shields on at all times. In fact I only ever switch power to shields in emergencies.
I would take my 6500 as low, I play conservatively, I don't alpha all the time but at the start and then save it for the boss, so my DPS could be higher.
I have a guide written for our fleet, but it isn't anything you can't find in the forums here.
All builds are cannon based, cruisers use omega builds and escorts use Maco w/borg.
Btw, 6 points into threat generation is more than enough to let a 3500 dps cruiser hold agro on my bursts which are 34000-38000dps
All the statistics are taken with ACT combat log for analysis, I use it to assess the fleet's performance, damage, healing, tanking, equipment and abilities.
"science ships are just looked at with the "wtf are they doing here" attitude (first part to get argued no doubt in responses to this thread)."
Give me a Long Range Science Vessel and I will give you a reason to want a science around at all times. Four AoE escorts and a science ship - the STF dream team. You know... as long as none of them suck at what they do.
Flying an E STF earlier today I had a realization. Its something we all see but I tended to think of it as them just not knowing how to pilot, but now I see it as its own problem. Most of the cruisers pilots are just not aggressive enough. They stay at max range plinking away even if someone else clearly holds agro. With my Engi Ody If at all possible I fly to under 3 Km range (if not point blank) and blaze away, with my escorts i'm even more agressive. My favorite thing to do is bringing Donatra off cloak by pushing her around... not with silly repulsors, with my ship!
Most of the cruisers pilots are just not aggressive enough. They stay at max range plinking away even if someone else clearly holds agro.
I can fly at under 3 km but I prefer 6-8km as it gives ME room to manoeuvre but at the same time it allows to see all the escorts and dish out support when needed without being in their way. I think what's the area that Beams should do optimal damage, a little more closer and a little less further away, this would allow cruisers to support all roles again
Flying an E STF earlier today I had a realization. Its something we all see but I tended to think of it as them just not knowing how to pilot, but now I see it as its own problem. Most of the cruisers pilots are just not aggressive enough. They stay at max range plinking away even if someone else clearly holds agro. With my Engi Ody If at all possible I fly to under 3 Km range (if not point blank) and blaze away, with my escorts i'm even more agressive. My favorite thing to do is bringing Donatra off cloak by pushing her around... not with silly repulsors, with my ship!
I can fly at under 3 km but I prefer 6-8km as it gives ME room to manoeuvre but at the same time it allows to see all the escorts and dish out support when needed without being in their way. I think what's the area that Beams should do optimal damage, a little more closer and a little less further away, this would allow cruisers to support all roles again
Lol I think you guys would enjoy flying with me then. I get my sovy and literally SIT, yes SIT on top of elite tac cubes. I am usually at 1k or less range, and just sit on top of them whaling on them. For some reason doing that I manage to hold aggro with no points in threat control. XD.
As for Donatra? Well what else method is there of fighting her? Up close and personal or not at all baby (unless you are holding aggro and kiting her so the rest of the team can deal damage while she's not cloaked).
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Lol, on top is point blank for tac cubes, those death peas are killer!
But if you sit on top of them, you're out of their torp firing arc. I may be nuts, but I'm not stupid lol... The only things that can hit you when you are directly above or below them are the plasma and tetryon mk (some ridiculously high number, cuz honey, it ain't XII) beam arrays.
No torps means no death peas, and since they don't have the heavy plasma cannons that the gateways do, you're pretty safe. I do the same thing with my escort and raptor. Fly in high and fast, sit on top, and blast em point blank from well outside their torp range. Works on tac cubes and regular cubes.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
While the cruiser can be a backseat healer it is not set in stone to do so. It can tank and hold aggro and with a tactical captain or an efficient player can dish out a respectable amount of dps.
While flying my cruiser with a tac and 6 beams and 2 torps I can definitely dps consistently BETTER then an escort.....I can hold my own against negh vars and cubes without having to run away. this means sustained DPS on the target as opposed to the escorts rear guns or NO GUNS as they flee to 10+km.
Cruisers are multi role ships...they do best as a tank and worst as a sci vessel and mediocre to good as a dps platform.
With the range of weapons effecting the dps potential i like to sit at the sweet spot...3k and pound away...also because my cruiser is versatile and fast...much was commited to maneuverability and my defense score is very high.... just move around in crcles hitting as i please and balancing shields as need be.
Tis is an age old debate and it is not with much merit...as with all ships it is about the player and how she builds the ships and uses it effectively.
Ships are not intended to be balanced...each class has its strengths and trying to make a cruiser on par with TAC/escorts is just a lil too much for me to swallow. There have been modest forays into making CRUISERS more tactical and they have worked well....AS LONG as you realize that cruisers are not escorts....
As far as I know the CRUISER is the backbone of the fleet....the ODDy is the best and grandest ship of the fleet..a powerful cruiser with much versatility and potential.
There has been much love to cruisers and i am sure there will be more....but I will counter anyone who says there has not been enough.....Thdey are superb tanks...great damage dealers and generally good healers........there is not much more u can ask for.
Today we fight the GAULS......monstrous and HAIRY beyond reason.
*snip snip* trying to make a cruiser on par with TAC/escorts is just a lil too much for me to swallow. There have been modest forays into making CRUISERS more tactical and they have worked well....AS LONG as you realize that cruisers are not escorts.... *snip snip*
*snip snip*I am not asking that Cruisers become primary DDs, I know that's the escorts job. Yet everyone seems to think that I am saying we need it. So let me put things straight once and for all.
I am NOT asking that cruisers become main damage dealers. I am NOT asking that escorts be put out of the job. I am NOT only bashing escorts, for that matter I am NOT bashing ANY SHIP CLASS WHATSOEVER. I know what a cruiser's job is. I know what an escort's job is. I know what a science ship's job used to be.
That being said, the ONLY reason I ask for weapons like the Heavy Beam Array and things like the leader Aura is because I think (not KNOW but THINK) that cruisers have been rendered obsolete. I THINK they aren't needed anymore because of the sustain that escorts have. Due to that, they don't need the healers/support nearly as much. Since in all honesty, escorts kill things so fast whatever it is they are attacking won't have the time to deal enough damage to them to make a true healer needed. That's not OP, that's just what they do. I don't want a nerf on escorts (ok, maybe a slight durability reduction, ok maybe not so slight lol...), I just want something that makes cruisers worth flying again.*snip snip*
*snip snip*I know I will NEVER deal as much damage as an escort can. And for crying out loud, I have NEVER asked to be able to. It's NOT my job. But I want some bite. Something other than a little tickle. That was the Heavy Beam Array idea. The flagship aura was just an added idea I know is not going to happen and it's only purpose was so that those higher tier cruisers would have another reason to be there. Since they are support, why not give them more support prowess with that kind of buff?
Hence why the thread name. Cruisers seem to be a joke to me. I am not doing the usual CRUISER NEED TO BECOME ALL POWERFUL!!! NO! They don't. All I was asking IF YOU BOTHERED TO READ THE FIRST POST OF THIS THREAD is that they don't seem to be needed. So I merely offered suggestions that would make them an actually useful part of a team in an STF or other PvE. Sorry PvPers, but this game is mostly PvE, so unfortunately, cruisers are useful in PvP, but to most players in this game, that is meaningless. *snip snip*
Yep. So... yeah... not asking for cruisers to be main DD or like escorts. I realize cruiser is not escort. I also realize I really need to stop posting such long replies or people don't bother to read anymore -.-
EDIT: I also should have stated that this thread is made by an Engineering captain, so that's a little more DPS down the tube. XD
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Comments
Heh... I like this guy, but alas he contributes not to this thread.
Well all I can say is that if you don't bother to read the first post in a thread, why bother to respond at all? Do us all the courtesy of not wasting our time with a response that is not constructive in any way shape or form.
Now that that's dealt with, baudl is right (god I can't believe I am saying this). I recently did some tests in elite stfs and in 1v1s with a few of my friends, and I found that after exactly 60 seconds of blasting a target's head in, my FPE with an engi captain was able to sustain about 8k dps with all buffs and abilities going. I was cycling TT1 and CRFs almost constantly in conjunction with APB1 and 2, and again a consistent 8k dps running full DHCs and turrets.
Now I did the same thing with only weapons firing, NO buffs of any kind. My dps dropped dramatically down to about 3.5k. That's a drop to roughly 40% of my standard dps on my FPE. I did a few more runs (after letting my friend heal, thank god that Oddys have such a high heal rate lol). I found that the primary increasers of damage were CRF and APB. TT helped but the damage increase was negligible.
Now I then grabbed my AC and ran the same test with equivalent weapons, 7 beam arrays. After 60 seconds of pounding, my dps was only around 4200 cycling abilities and buffs. HOWEVER the only tactical abilities I was running were TT1 and APB1, since that's all I had available with limited tac BOff slots.
Again, I then did weapons only. My dps dropped to 3200. So a 25% reduction give or take. I found the interesting part was that the AC using just weapons was hitting only 600 dps less than my FPE doing the same thing. My friend and I had a quick discussion and then ran one more test.
I proceeded to dishonor the USS Naglfar with 7 beam arrays and ran the full buffs test again, but this time cycling BFAW, TT1, and APB1 and 2 (should be noted, only one copy of BFAW, don't have another copy on my tac officer, since it has TS1 instead). This is where it got interesting. After 60 seconds of firing and cycling all the abilities, my FPE was consistently hitting 6k dps, with spikes up to 6500 when I used BFAW.
We then ran the same test with just the 7 beam arrays, and it was IDENTICAL to the AC running just beam arrays. Not really a surprise, but just a confirmation of something we already figured.
So conclusions of test:
Shooters:
Eqipment: Phaser DHCs mk XI Common, Phaser Turrets mk XI Common, Phaser Beam Arrays mk XI Common, NO PHASER RELAYS
USS Naglfar (Fleet Patrol Escort)
4 DHCs + 3 Turrets + Buffs: 8k DPS
4 DHCs + 3 Turrets: 3500
7 BAs + Buffs: 6k, 6500 spikes
7 BAs: 3200
USS Void Guardian (Assault Cruiser)
7 BAs + Buffs: 4200 dps
7 BAs: 3200
Target:
USS Phlegm (Odyssey Tactical Cruiser)
No Consoles, Shields, Deflector, Engines, Weapons. Just a floating hulk essentially XD.
We used Phasers because they were easy and cheap to get, in addition to the fact that their proc wouldn't do anything if the target had no shields. We also decided to do it against straight hull since it would be easiest to track dps and you don't have to take shield heal into acc. We also had him separated saucer to reduce his crew heals, and we also blasted away most of his crew with torpedoes and then healed him with Eng teams to get as static a test as possible.
So Final Conclusion:
Baudl and friends are right, it's BOff slots + tactical consoles. Not the escorts. At least when it comes to damage dealing. But I still say they're too tanky.
But before you start preening yourself, it also comes down to weapons. DHCs and Turrets have a similar dps to Beam Arrays, but have more abilities that enhance them, and/or those abilities are better at enhancing them.
Just some numbers since that's what everyone is always asking for.
The number of abilities is the same.
2 for Beams. FAW and BO.
2 Torps. TS and HY.
2 for Cannons. CSF and CRF.
Difference is that they have access to all 3 ranks of the above abilities. The best we can hope for is a rank II of a single ability. They can have rank 2 and 3 of the Cannon abilities on top of Torp abilities.
Where weapons are concerned, Cannons seem to have a much higher shield penetration rate than other energy weapon types. And they have the highest DPS climb between ranks. MkXI -->MkXII
Fine if you insist I shall revert to boring white on black.
That would be why I added that cannon abilities seem more effective at enhancing them. I know that the abilities are the same. However what I meant is that TT1 enhances cannons far better, since it adds 10 to the base damage, and we all know that cannons have a higher modifier on them, which increases their damage.
I didn't do a test with shields up, which I will probably do soon, but I just wanted to get a baseline to see if some of the comments made were accurate, so I did. But I still proved at least some of the conclusions correct, the ones about BOff abilities making that large of a difference, since you can see that the dps was almost identical without using BOff abilities.
However this simply goes along with what's been said this whole time, escorts can do that much more damage simply because they are designed to be the main damage dealer. But that still doesn't change the fact that cruisers becoming the main damage dealers is NOT what I am asking for.
So in all honesty I have no idea why I ran this test lol...
Also, I ran full cannons on the FPE, no torps.
Try 3 boff powers dedicated to healing/defense not 6. And what on earth is there that is useful to the point of heals in the ensign slot anyway. Oh right tac team got those too ok 5 skills that i honestly couldn't think of anything else to use instead. Maybe an extra sci ability instead of the haz emitter but that's just crazy talk.
Oh and aside from crazy gate torp one shots or a dono torp spread when BoI is down I can and have tanked everything an elite STF can throw at me in a defiant with a tac, and an MVAE with a sci. Its not hard.
Damage potential of abilities based on the ship while healing is not is pretty easy to explain, although it is all very relative to gear and other abilities used so this is an extreme oversimplification.
An escort with DHCs (or cruiser for that matter) will get more raw damage out of CRF than another ship with regular cannons. A ship using FAW will get more raw damage with more beams. A boat using CRF and/or FAW will get more raw damage when using them with AP:O, AP:B (vs hull), and DEM (oh wait that's bugged atm). CRF and the APs even scale with your +dmg tac consoles.
What effects your Epower to shield? Just cap. skill not the ship or shield equipped. Same with BoI doffs, TSS, etc. Although some are effected by AUX power this is true and why we got batteries.
That leads to the following effect
- DPS ship has higher base DPS, and has higher modifiers from boff abilities to damage.
- Tanky ship has similar base Tank, but the same modifiers from boff abilities to tank.
- You can replace tank with healer
So lets just make up some numbers for effect here
DPS Ship: 3k raw DPS, 50k EHP
Tanky Ship: 2k raw DPS, 60k EHP
DPS ship takes more DPS abilities while tanky ship takes more tank abilities but both mix a bit. DPS abilities double damage for tanky ship and triple it for DPS ship. Tank abilities add 40k EHP for DPS ship and tanky ship gains 60k. Now we get
DPS Ship: 9k DPS, 90k EHP
Tanky Ship: 4k DPS, 120k EHP
I use the terms DPS and Tanky because in all honesty the real capability of a ship is decided more by its boff arrangement than the type. This is how things scale for the most part. Now it is true that more resistance makes your shield heal stronger (so EPTS 3 is significantly stronger than EPTS 1) but so does a higher defense and in PvE you only need enough survivability to kill the target so the point is moot.
At the same time I'm questioned as to why I play MMOs at all since I don't seem seem to be a team player. The answer, which i seldom give out, is that i'm not content to play a cookie cutter build in a manner prescribed by someone else simply because DPS rules. Roles need to be made more distinct, tanks should tank, sci's IMHO should focus on CC and healing and all should be welcomed into a team environment.
Instead Tanks lack DPS, CC has been nerfed to uselessness and nobody cares about anything but DPS.
This seriously needs to be changed, if you want the solo population of STO to have anything to do with the rest of the community.
EDIT: Went back to reread my post after someone later in the thread found it "bewildering". So reading it again, yeah i'm kinna bewildered too. I'm not sure what i was thinking when i wrote this but I won't snip it, i'll take responsibility for the stupid things I sometimes write.
I find it baffling that first you complain about wanting to play your way... and then you want to force more strict roles on players. Did you ask all of them if they wanted to have a more rigid trinity? I know I certainly don't.
It may also surprise some that the so called super escorts are more or less the same build with only some minor variations. A lot is sacrificed for them to do what they do, its called min/maxing and most self styled "serious" or "hardcore" players do it.
So how can players go in with their own unique non maximized builds and expect to do well? It doesn't matter whether you take an escort, cruiser or sci vessel, if its a weak build its not going to do well.
I think that if you look at the successful PvE cruiser builds you'll see a lot of similar build design ideas. Mostly doing everything to maximize DPS while devoting just enough of the build to defenses to survive while tanking. They usually don't even have heals specifically meant for others; which is reasonable in the context of them tanking all the larger enemies.
When you're talking about min/maxing it only makes sense if both things being compared are min/maxed, otherwise there's no point. You can't compare a min/maxed escort to a non-optimized escort or cruiser, it will never make sense. Just last night I had the pleasure of doing all 3 Elite STFs with a truly optimized cruiser and sci vessel in the group... It was unbelievably smooth. The sci vessel did CC, drains, etc (i wish I could expand more on it but Sci Vessels are something I haven't really used yet); while the cruiser held aggro against 2 very aggressive escorts without dying or suffering any mayor inconvenience beyond one disconnect. Its a pity so many of the really good Sci vessel and cruiser captains almost never do pugs anymore, so less experienced players really have no idea what to go for. Instead they all assume that staying at max range forever will work against Tac Cubes. How can they not if they don't see an example to follow and the game teaches them to do exactly that?
As to the DPS being determined more by BOff layout that is indeed the case. Its why I've said before some cruisers are just too tanky oriented. In particular the Starcruiser and Galaxy come to mind (additionally some extra turning would work wonders for the fun factor of cruisers). Conversely, the Free Ody my engi uses, with a Universal Lt Cmr and a Lt.. Tac boff stations does pretty well, on top of an always active EPTW3. In essence I play it like a large stately escort and its worked out very well. Yes, even the free version they handed out is a pretty powerful ship so my engi may have an advantage, but it was the last semi cool free thing I recall Cryptic giving out so you'd better believe i'll use it!
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
But bringing cruiser up to the escort level when it comes to dagmage is not that much of a problem I think. The main problem are beam arrays. They are already better then cannons in regard of range, but should be even better. And the second is the weapons coverage - better arcs for beams would be great for PvP, but also in PvE cruisers will gain a lot of profit. Als there is a NEED to apply a nerf bat to Tactical Team.
Now, how to do this:
1) Beams should have reverse power/range scale. This means that they should have 100% of damage at 10km and gain damage when target comes close. Not much, but still to make it more dangerous to oponent to come close to the cruiser. And at least they should have 100% damage on all ranges.
2) This is mainly for PvP, but the biggest gripe for a cruiser is escort manoeuvrability. Not only escort has better innate defence, but it is also fast an manoeuvrable enough to stay on the cruiser (often literally sit on him) and avoid 50% of his weapons. This is also unacceptable becasue it makes escort close to imprevious to cruisers fire. Beams should have either 360 deg. arc, or at least high above 300 to minimize the gap and possibility to avoid it's weapons.
3) Tactical Team should have the shield redistribution scalable. It should be just as fast as manual redistribution at TT 1, 25-50% faster then manual at TT 2 and 50-75% better at TT 3. This will remove the plaque of escorts redistributing their shields faster then beam eats them and force those escorts that want to retain their shield tank to use high level tactical BOFF slots to get TT 2 or TT 3. It will also remove the highest level of TT and shield redistribution from most of cruiser and sci-ship as it is, after all tactical skill. And thos ships have their eng and sci powers to compensate and shield-tank in other way.
This alone makes me think you don't really understand what you're proposing.
Nerfing escorts wont happen for obvious reason. They will never become glass cannons they once were. So we need to make main weapon of cruisers: beam array more damaging (not necessarily powerful). This means either better power overall (wont happen) or better ability to deliver damage. This means changing firing arc and range. Beams wont go over 10k, it wont happen although could be cool. But they can/should deliver more power over range. Currently for cruisers the window of opportunity to deliver full firepower is not big enough to do any harm to escort. And after this window closes the escort sits on it's six and cruiser don't have a way to deliver more then 50% of damage (or less if it's mine-heavy build or something like this).
And it wont be that harmful, not for PvP. Time from engagement to the range when DHC/DC reaches it's full potential is seconds. Less the firing cycle of beam array. Such tweak will make the beams better weapons, but it still wont make them more powerful the DHC.
Of course escorts will cry "OP" because in PvP they will get closer to the glass cannons status they once were. But in PvE this may review the cruisers as viable option for fast, DPS based (means - all) missions.
1) I can see what I think you were trying to do here and I disagree that they should do that much damage at 10km, I do think that at 10km a beam array should still lay down 50-75% of it's damage and do 100% at =<1km as this would help to balance them against escorts in terms of play style in that cruisers aren't supposed to get up close and personal (where escorts are), doing so leads to quicker movement around ones target and thus less damage on target, also it allows escorts more room to move as the cruisers don't need to be up close to get the much needed damage.
3) Are you by any chance a poor tank? TT is the tanks most important skill, you can't tank on manual distribution, it doesn't move fast enough, if anything I think TT should remain as is. I don't fancy my tank ability nerfed to go with my poor damage, I'd have absolutely no purpose in the game
Alien lieutenant general, house of duras
Human vice admiral, icarus fleet
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]=/\= '...to boldly go, where no game has gone before...' =/\=
No, I'm not. But today the tanking is about EPtS and TT. With some High Aux TSS for fast shield healing. AuxTo:SIF for hull boost if you need and another high aux skill like HE for even more hull boost. All/most of this can be done by friggin escort. You do not need cruiser for it. Eng/cruiser get RSP to boost resistance and the EPS boost to aux/shields.
And that's without DOFFs that also can be used on escorts.
With nerfed TT cruisers could at least pack some high-level healing/resistance abilities that are not accessible to escorts. And escorts will need to sacrifice lot of firepower (1 lt.cmdr slot for TT 3, 2 slots without DOFFs to speed up CD) to gain similar survivability they have now. Tactical cruiser with need of tank could still use TT 2 (they have lt slot for this).
Ok, this will hurt cruisers, but it will also hurt escorts, I think it will hurt them more then cruisers. I could still pack EPtS 3 on my cruiser and boost it with TSS 2 on aux battery. Escorts to get max EPtS 2 OR TSS 2. Not both. And for sci abilities to work they would still need to sacrifice one slot for aux battery.
I combat log all my fleet alerts (its pretty consistent, STFs have too large distance gaps)
As a tac in an escort I used to average 6500 dps.
After one patch that dropped to 5500 dps, I thought I was messed up, obviously they devs changed something.
I bought fleet weapons and my numbers are back to 6500 dps, except against Tholians, they are wicked.
Now when I log fleet mates that I've coached to do damage an eng escort does 4500 dps in a non P2W ship.
A sci cruiser does 3500-4000 dps in excellsior
Normal pug cruisers 1500 dps
So is the problem cruisers or is it that people have no clue what they are doing? You'd be amazed how many tac escorts are running 800 dps.. seriously. The best pug cruiser I've ever seen is 2200 dps outside of our fleet.
Cruisers are more than fine, even 3500 dps as a sci cruiser is very capable, less than 1k difference between an escort.
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
Nothing to do anymore.
http://dtfleet.com/
Visit our Youtube channel
I like your stats, and I'm interested in how you came to achieve them, so please... Tell
I cannot say what Nicha0 may have as s/he sounds like a far more capable player than I, but I just realized something. All this talk of builds and whatnot... did we ever mention power levels? My cruisers have similar power settings to my escorts, customized to have as much energy to weapons as possible. No build will make a cruiser do decent damage if they take the easier route of simply having full power to shields on at all times. In fact I only ever switch power to shields in emergencies.
I have a guide written for our fleet, but it isn't anything you can't find in the forums here.
All builds are cannon based, cruisers use omega builds and escorts use Maco w/borg.
Btw, 6 points into threat generation is more than enough to let a 3500 dps cruiser hold agro on my bursts which are 34000-38000dps
All the statistics are taken with ACT combat log for analysis, I use it to assess the fleet's performance, damage, healing, tanking, equipment and abilities.
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
Nothing to do anymore.
http://dtfleet.com/
Visit our Youtube channel
Give me a Long Range Science Vessel and I will give you a reason to want a science around at all times. Four AoE escorts and a science ship - the STF dream team. You know... as long as none of them suck at what they do.
I can fly at under 3 km but I prefer 6-8km as it gives ME room to manoeuvre but at the same time it allows to see all the escorts and dish out support when needed without being in their way. I think what's the area that Beams should do optimal damage, a little more closer and a little less further away, this would allow cruisers to support all roles again
Lol I think you guys would enjoy flying with me then. I get my sovy and literally SIT, yes SIT on top of elite tac cubes. I am usually at 1k or less range, and just sit on top of them whaling on them. For some reason doing that I manage to hold aggro with no points in threat control. XD.
As for Donatra? Well what else method is there of fighting her? Up close and personal or not at all baby (unless you are holding aggro and kiting her so the rest of the team can deal damage while she's not cloaked).
Lol, on top is point blank for tac cubes, those death peas are killer!
But if you sit on top of them, you're out of their torp firing arc. I may be nuts, but I'm not stupid lol... The only things that can hit you when you are directly above or below them are the plasma and tetryon mk (some ridiculously high number, cuz honey, it ain't XII) beam arrays.
No torps means no death peas, and since they don't have the heavy plasma cannons that the gateways do, you're pretty safe. I do the same thing with my escort and raptor. Fly in high and fast, sit on top, and blast em point blank from well outside their torp range. Works on tac cubes and regular cubes.
While the cruiser can be a backseat healer it is not set in stone to do so. It can tank and hold aggro and with a tactical captain or an efficient player can dish out a respectable amount of dps.
While flying my cruiser with a tac and 6 beams and 2 torps I can definitely dps consistently BETTER then an escort.....I can hold my own against negh vars and cubes without having to run away. this means sustained DPS on the target as opposed to the escorts rear guns or NO GUNS as they flee to 10+km.
Cruisers are multi role ships...they do best as a tank and worst as a sci vessel and mediocre to good as a dps platform.
With the range of weapons effecting the dps potential i like to sit at the sweet spot...3k and pound away...also because my cruiser is versatile and fast...much was commited to maneuverability and my defense score is very high.... just move around in crcles hitting as i please and balancing shields as need be.
Tis is an age old debate and it is not with much merit...as with all ships it is about the player and how she builds the ships and uses it effectively.
Ships are not intended to be balanced...each class has its strengths and trying to make a cruiser on par with TAC/escorts is just a lil too much for me to swallow. There have been modest forays into making CRUISERS more tactical and they have worked well....AS LONG as you realize that cruisers are not escorts....
As far as I know the CRUISER is the backbone of the fleet....the ODDy is the best and grandest ship of the fleet..a powerful cruiser with much versatility and potential.
There has been much love to cruisers and i am sure there will be more....but I will counter anyone who says there has not been enough.....Thdey are superb tanks...great damage dealers and generally good healers........there is not much more u can ask for.
Ok.
Yep. So... yeah... not asking for cruisers to be main DD or like escorts. I realize cruiser is not escort. I also realize I really need to stop posting such long replies or people don't bother to read anymore -.-
EDIT: I also should have stated that this thread is made by an Engineering captain, so that's a little more DPS down the tube. XD