So you can make a bit of a room, the texture problem with the windows on the Noble saucer appears to have been fixed. It looks like some effort has been made with the registry texture also, but that's still broken unfortunately.
So you can make a bit of a room, the texture problem with the windows on the Noble saucer appears to have been fixed. It looks like some effort has been made with the registry texture also, but that's still broken unfortunately.
I support this thread. The K'Tinga class is a old favorite of mine. If I were to nit-pick further I would address the bridge variants. I am refering to the bridge layout seen in Star Trek - The Motion Picture of the doomed flight of K'Tinga's that were data collected by V-Ger. I refer to Star Trek -The Magazine December 2001 Volume 2 Issue 8 featured article on the K'Tinga showing in quite graphic detail what the Main Bridge layout was supposed to look like. I have to thank Cryptic and its developers for giving me the best visually appealing Star Trek space combat sim since Starfleet Command. I don't envy Cryptic taking on the legion of nit-pickers. I can live with the "times have changed" concept.
Missing "feather" decall (Negh'Var style) from upper and lower wings
Broken warp trail from nacelle
Missing logo on base of wings
Missing hard-point docking clamp (the yellow bulge) on rear of wings
Missing rack-style texture on the square (red) plasma vents on nacelles
Angle of logo on the top of wings is facing the wrong direction - it should be facing the same direction as the nacelles, not facing away from the nacelles
The grid vents on top of the wings are too short - these also should default to a metallic grey colour
The arrowhead section in front of the grid vents should be more triangular and longer be longer
The arrowhead above the grid vents (usually called a mission pod) should be more triangular and should be raised completely off the hull via a slimmer triangular neck
There should be three distinct indents of the front of the wings, occasionally seen glowing red (believed by fans to be additional shuttle bays, but if they mirror the Negh'var's design, they are likely impulse intakes) but the STO model only has one large indent
Lack of details on raised bumps throughout the hull, including feather decal on the head section
The shape of the wings are wrong - they are too straight at the back and curve at too shallow of an angle at the front - the wings should also place the nacelles far more lower compared to the hull
Pattern choices do not offer the correct Klingon colours, nor do they allow for the wing decal to be correctly painted.
Missing rack-style texture on the square (red) plasma vents on nacelles
Angle of logo on the top of wings is facing the wrong direction - it should be facing the same direction as the nacelles, not facing away from the nacelles
The shape of the wings are wrong - they are too straight at the back and curve at too shallow of an angle at the front - the wings should also place the nacelles far more lower compared to the hull
The recent tribble patch notes say that the Tor'Kaht errors above have been addressed, but I haven't yet had a chance to test these on the current tribble build. I'll take a look when I get home to see if they are addressed.
Additionaly, though its not on the Vor'Cha errors list (or any of the KDF ship list), some (possibly all)l Klingon ships appear to have had flashing white beacon lights added to them finally - this is something we all seemed to have missed from the list as all Klingon ships have been shown to have very similar lights to that of the Fed counterparts, so nice one to whichever Dev added them - but it shouldn't stop with just flashing beacon lights - Klingon ships in general need far more running lights, including the hull lighting on the Klingon logos (same sort of light you get on Starfleet saucers for the name/registry) as well as additional red, green and white (non-flashing) navigation lights throughout the hull.
In regards to the starfleet decal being broken, are you referring to the search for spock hull where the arrow seems to be cut in half?
Yes, the original Excelsior-design. I might be remembering wrong, but I did not notice this when I last used her.
I'm not sure if the same texture error is also present on the 1701-B-model ("Excelsior Refit"), but it would seem likely given that this part of the model should not be different. If necessary, I can take a look and report back.
[edit]Now I get what you mean with "SFS" hull. I hope the devs will, too.
Yes, the original Excelsior-design. I might be remembering wrong, but I did not notice this when I last used her.
I'm not sure if the same texture error is also present on the 1701-B-model ("Excelsior Refit"), but it would seem likely given that this part of the model should not be different. If necessary, I can take a look and report back.
[edit]Now I get what you mean with "SFS" hull. I hope the devs will, too.
"Excelsior" and "Excelsior Refit", I think (it is the name of the ship's class). I'll take a look when I get home just to be sure. But maybe someone else can confirm this in the meantime. :]
"Excelsior" and "Excelsior Refit", I think (it is the name of the ship's class). I'll take a look when I get home just to be sure. But maybe someone else can confirm this in the meantime. :]
Umm, the "Refit" is the Enterprise-B-variant (from "Generations"). The classic Excelsior in "Search for Spock" does not differ from the Excelsior in "Undiscovered Country".
Umm, the "Refit" is the Enterprise-B-variant (from "Generations"). The classic Excelsior in "Search for Spock" does not differ from the Excelsior in "Undiscovered Country".
Not sure where to put this, but they also need the little Golden Models that you can set up on your shelves for the new ships -- Excelsior, Nebula, etc...
The feather pattern should only be changable/colored on the underside of the wing.
The Top/Dorsal pattern on the wings should have the same "green" color as the rest of the base texture.
The feather pattern should only be changable/colored on the underside of the wing.
The Top/Dorsal pattern on the wings should have the same "green" color as the rest of the base texture.
Which i guess also means that the BoP missing a feather pattern has been fixed.
Thats open to debate, and it will take you into precisely the same BoP circles as attempting to make any sense of the whole B'Rel vs K'Vort TNG vs DS9 etc etc BoP debates.
There's very little consistancy with nearly any aspect of the BoP, and even less that you can justify as being canon since canon contradicts itself so frequently.
The general fan consensus, however, is that the B'Rel class BoPs (the smaller versions) can have either green tops or red/brown tops, but always red/brown decals underneath, as where the K'Vorts are always green on both top/bottom and, unlike the B'Rels, usualy have at least 3 different shades of green mixed into the feather decal instead.
But as I say its all massively open to debate even despite how frequently we've seen bops with green on the tops of the wings.
As it stands, the KDF is far less strict on its colour schemes, which would explain why there have been so many different shades of green for BoPs, so it is best to keep it to player discretion as is the current case.
Frankly if anything is to be changed with the feather decals of the B'Rel's wing it is the fact that none of the current pattern schemes allow us to colour all of the decals properly.
The Soveriegn has a pattern that is made specificaly for that ship ( it even has default in brackets to highlight the fact that its made for that ship) and adds all of the correct black decals to the hull if you have it selected - thats what we need for the B'Rel.
Thats open to debate, and it will take you into precisely the same BoP circles as attempting to make any sense of the whole B'Rel vs K'Vort TNG vs DS9 etc etc BoP debates.
There's very little consistancy with nearly any aspect of the BoP, and even less that you can justify as being canon since canon contradicts itself so frequently.
The general fan consensus, however, is that the B'Rel class BoPs (the smaller versions) can have either green tops or red/brown tops, but always red/brown decals underneath, as where the K'Vorts are always green on both top/bottom and, unlike the B'Rels, usualy have at least 3 different shades of green mixed into the feather decal instead.
But as I say its all massively open to debate even despite how frequently we've seen bops with green on the tops of the wings.
As it stands, the KDF is far less strict on its colour schemes, which would explain why there have been so many different shades of green for BoPs, so it is best to keep it to player discretion as is the current case.
Frankly if anything is to be changed with the feather decals of the B'Rel's wing it is the fact that none of the current pattern schemes allow us to colour all of the decals properly.
The Soveriegn has a pattern that is made specificaly for that ship ( it even has default in brackets to highlight the fact that its made for that ship) and adds all of the correct black decals to the hull if you have it selected - thats what we need for the B'Rel.
The feather pattern should only be changable/colored on the underside of the wing.
The Top/Dorsal pattern on the wings should have the same "green" color as the rest of the base texture.
Which i guess also means that the BoP missing a feather pattern has been fixed.
I feel I lean more towards AlexRaptor's point of view, here, only because I've never seen a BoP with coloured dorsal feather patterns. Hoshi, do you have any film / episode shots of a BoP with coloured dorsal feather patterns?
I feel I lean more towards AlexRaptor's point of view, here, only because I've never seen a BoP with coloured dorsal feather patterns. Hoshi, do you have any film / episode shots of a BoP with coloured dorsal feather patterns?
No, but for a Bird of Prey the argument of "is it on screen" isn't going to get you very far because nearly every time a new FX shot for a Bird of Prey is created, something has changed - size, colour, colour of feather pattern, wing position, etc. Trying to pindown a class of Bird of Prey is virtualy impossible for the same reason.
Here's a long post explaining my standpoint, so please forgive my wall of text;
We don't have canon (on-screen) confirmation that any of the Birds of Prey shown in DS9, which will include all of the screencaps Alexraptor has shown above, is a B'Rel class. The only time in the entirety of Star Trek is any Bird of Prey confirmed on-screen as being B'Rel class are the BoPs in the TNG episode "Little Rascals" and those were quite clearly what TNG has otherwise confirmed as being K'Vort class - far bigger, and completly different colour schemes, to the Birds of Prey shown at any other point in Trek. The only time a Bird of Prey class is even mentioned to my knowledge in DS9 is a K'Vort class - and we only see the debris and an escape pod for it (which incidently confirms that klingon ships DO have escape pods).
People like Okuda and Steinback have attempted to address this in the Technical Manuals and the Encylopedia, but since they themselves have errors as well, that n itself is an entirely different debate.
In regards to what we have actually seen on-screen, we've had a dark green Bird of Prey, referred too as a "scout class", with the top wings painted all the same colour and the lower wings painted with red and brown in Star Trek 3. This Bird of Prey's size changes from around 110m in length in ST3 to around 60m in ST4 and the colour appears to have gotten lighter in the newer CG shots added to the remastered version of ST4. The original ST3 BoP then re-appears in both ST5 and then in ST6 as Chang's prototype - same colours, same size (110m).
We've also seen the same Bird of Prey from ST3, with more or less the same size and colours, as the IKS Pagh in TNG.
We've also seen both a K'Vort and B'Rel class in TNG, with sizes ranging from 310 to 650m, far larger than the Pagh, and painted in a much lighter green - these appear consistantly throughout the rest of TNG from around Season 3. These appear to have greeen on both the upper and lower wings with absolutely no red/brown decal.
ST Generations, which is confirmed as being a "D12 class", appears to have reverted back to the original colour schemes of ST3.
In DS9 we're back to seing two BoP's, one around 60m and more commonly one around 110m. The colours on these are again different - we have some which are the darker ST3 green, others that appear to be the lighter TNG green, and yet more that are the mid-range green from the ST4 CG shot. Likewise some have red/brown decals underneath, some are all green, some have 3 different shades of green on the top feathers, and some are all the same colour - but not of them have canon comfirmation of class.
Its probably important to note that DS9 also saw a complete colour change for all other Klingon ships with a more consistant green being used across the board.
Clearly there is very little consistancy on colours, size, or even class. If that doesn't already make the whole point open to debate, practicaly every soft canon (games, books etc) is even less consistant with "B'Rel" class BoP's often having painted decals on both top and bottom which is arugably to blame for many fans believing that they're painted this way in actual Trek.
Personaly I agree with Alex in that the top of the wings shouldn't have the red/brown colour scheme, but since we have so little solid evidence to say exactly what ship on-screen is a B'Rel and what isn't, I think its just simply better to leave it to the discretion of the Klingon Captain.
At the very least, two of the patterns could be made to act as the (Default) patterns like fed ships have, where one allows you to modify the lower and the other allows you to modify both. That would probably be the best compromise, but I somehow doubt that will ever see the light of day.
That is a very lenghty post that ultimatley has not point or bearing here whatsoever.
B'rel in STO is just another way of referring ot the Classic Bird Of Prey.
The fact remains that all canon appearances of Klingon "Bird Of Prey's" show the wing pattern to "always" have the same color as the main hull with subtle variations of shades, even though the Ventral pattern varies.
As such the Dorsal pattern on the B'rel in STO should be non-customizable.
B'rel in STO is just another way of referring ot the Classic Bird Of Prey.
This being one of the most important points.
"B'Rel" IS NOT just another way of referring to the "Classic Bird of Prey". The "Classic Bird of Prey" is only known as "Scout Class" and the only other Bird of Prey similar to it that was named on-screen was the D12 Class in Generations.
"B'Rel" is a very specific class of Bird of Prey that is mentioned, on-screen, in the TNG episode "Little Rascals", and as above is NOT the "Classic BoP".
Referring to a B'Rel as the smaller Bird of Prey is soft canon - that means it is NOT confirmed on-screen, but is instead referred too in books or games. Again Canon itself actually points to the B'Rel being the TNG Bird of Prey, NOT the Classic Bird of Prey.
Soft canon quite frequently has the B'Rel class with painted red/brown feathers on the top - to the point where something like 8 or 9 out of 10 games have the top of the wings painted red/brown.
The fact that most, or all, of the BoP's seen on screen have green upper wings is not that reliable as evidence because of how un-reliable the rest of the aspects of the BoP are, and since we're talking about a very specific class of Bird of Prey, you'd first need to confirm which on-screen BoP is actually a B'Rel class - and once more because of the episode Little Rascals that is a difficult task.
So you've got two choices here:
You either go by hard canon, in which case the B'Rel has to be completly removed from the game, or we go by soft canon and the top of the wings CAN be painted red/brown.
Star Trek is rarely as simple as "canon says", and the Bird of Prey is arguably the most difficult canon topic because it is the most inconsistant of any ship in the entire franchise.
Additionaly, that top pattern decal can only be coloured by picking specific patterns and, like all other ships in STO, there are many pattern combinations that have non-canon coloured patterns on pretty much every single ship. Why should the B'Rel now be a special case?
This original concept has clearly been used by Cryptic to design both the Hegh'ta and several of the other unique classes shown in STO.
Since this drawing, the basis, has red on the wings - and therefore all designs based off it are likely intended by Cryptic to have red of the wings, then there is additional weight to the argument that the Bird of Prey colour scheme for older classes may have been updated again to match the current standard - with the current standard having colours on the top.
As I pointed out, the Klingons have already completly changed colour schemes of existing classes seemingly at will, so there's no reason why this could not have been done again by 2409
I do not see why you countine to press the issue, its quite clear the colors the B'rel should have.
The Studio model and the CGI models all have green dorsal feather patterns of every Bird of Prey ever created.
Its very obvious that what the devs call B'rel is representing "The" Bird of Prey of Star Trek.
Honestly if your making a hard canon ship then there is no other way to paint it than in studio model/CGI colors.
I do not see why you countine to press the issue, its quite clear the colors the B'rel should have.
The Studio model and the CGI models all have green dorsal feather patterns of every Bird of Prey ever created.
Its very obvious that what the devs call B'rel is representing "The" Bird of Prey of Star Trek.
Honestly if your making a hard canon ship then there is no other way to paint it than in studio model/CGI colors.
This is true. As there are no actual canon references to coloured dorsal feather patterns, I've added it to the canon discrepancies section for the B'rel.
Comments
Roger, Rogers, I'll update the first page.
Fantastic! Thanks
can now be reduced to this:
The recent tribble patch notes say that the Tor'Kaht errors above have been addressed, but I haven't yet had a chance to test these on the current tribble build. I'll take a look when I get home to see if they are addressed.
Additionaly, though its not on the Vor'Cha errors list (or any of the KDF ship list), some (possibly all)l Klingon ships appear to have had flashing white beacon lights added to them finally - this is something we all seemed to have missed from the list as all Klingon ships have been shown to have very similar lights to that of the Fed counterparts, so nice one to whichever Dev added them - but it shouldn't stop with just flashing beacon lights - Klingon ships in general need far more running lights, including the hull lighting on the Klingon logos (same sort of light you get on Starfleet saucers for the name/registry) as well as additional red, green and white (non-flashing) navigation lights throughout the hull.
... unfortunately, now the Starfleet arrow logo is broken. Half the texture gets lost inside the model.
In regards to the starfleet decal being broken, are you referring to the search for spock hull where the arrow seems to be cut in half?
I'm not sure if the same texture error is also present on the 1701-B-model ("Excelsior Refit"), but it would seem likely given that this part of the model should not be different. If necessary, I can take a look and report back.
[edit]Now I get what you mean with "SFS" hull. I hope the devs will, too.
What's the hull called in game?
Heheh, I'll change "SFS" to "Refit"
Or just take a look at spidermitch' ship chart (takes a while to load).
I'm confused. >.<
Which one has the added.. um... fin things sticking out of the hull?
The Enterprise-B/Lakota Refit that was first seen in Generations.
Partially covered and one side is higher than the other
Floating registry
Added to the fleet escort section
See?!
Tier 0 and Tier 5 B'rel Bird-Of-Prey
The feather pattern should only be changable/colored on the underside of the wing.
The Top/Dorsal pattern on the wings should have the same "green" color as the rest of the base texture.
http://alexraptor.com/images/BoPwrong.jpg
http://alexraptor.com/images/BoPright.jpg
Which i guess also means that the BoP missing a feather pattern has been fixed.
Thats open to debate, and it will take you into precisely the same BoP circles as attempting to make any sense of the whole B'Rel vs K'Vort TNG vs DS9 etc etc BoP debates.
There's very little consistancy with nearly any aspect of the BoP, and even less that you can justify as being canon since canon contradicts itself so frequently.
The general fan consensus, however, is that the B'Rel class BoPs (the smaller versions) can have either green tops or red/brown tops, but always red/brown decals underneath, as where the K'Vorts are always green on both top/bottom and, unlike the B'Rels, usualy have at least 3 different shades of green mixed into the feather decal instead.
But as I say its all massively open to debate even despite how frequently we've seen bops with green on the tops of the wings.
As it stands, the KDF is far less strict on its colour schemes, which would explain why there have been so many different shades of green for BoPs, so it is best to keep it to player discretion as is the current case.
Frankly if anything is to be changed with the feather decals of the B'Rel's wing it is the fact that none of the current pattern schemes allow us to colour all of the decals properly.
The Soveriegn has a pattern that is made specificaly for that ship ( it even has default in brackets to highlight the fact that its made for that ship) and adds all of the correct black decals to the hull if you have it selected - thats what we need for the B'Rel.
Seeing as every single appearance of a BoP on screen only has red/brown feathers on the underside of the wings, and never the top.
I feel I lean more towards AlexRaptor's point of view, here, only because I've never seen a BoP with coloured dorsal feather patterns. Hoshi, do you have any film / episode shots of a BoP with coloured dorsal feather patterns?
No, but for a Bird of Prey the argument of "is it on screen" isn't going to get you very far because nearly every time a new FX shot for a Bird of Prey is created, something has changed - size, colour, colour of feather pattern, wing position, etc. Trying to pindown a class of Bird of Prey is virtualy impossible for the same reason.
Here's a long post explaining my standpoint, so please forgive my wall of text;
We don't have canon (on-screen) confirmation that any of the Birds of Prey shown in DS9, which will include all of the screencaps Alexraptor has shown above, is a B'Rel class. The only time in the entirety of Star Trek is any Bird of Prey confirmed on-screen as being B'Rel class are the BoPs in the TNG episode "Little Rascals" and those were quite clearly what TNG has otherwise confirmed as being K'Vort class - far bigger, and completly different colour schemes, to the Birds of Prey shown at any other point in Trek. The only time a Bird of Prey class is even mentioned to my knowledge in DS9 is a K'Vort class - and we only see the debris and an escape pod for it (which incidently confirms that klingon ships DO have escape pods).
People like Okuda and Steinback have attempted to address this in the Technical Manuals and the Encylopedia, but since they themselves have errors as well, that n itself is an entirely different debate.
In regards to what we have actually seen on-screen, we've had a dark green Bird of Prey, referred too as a "scout class", with the top wings painted all the same colour and the lower wings painted with red and brown in Star Trek 3. This Bird of Prey's size changes from around 110m in length in ST3 to around 60m in ST4 and the colour appears to have gotten lighter in the newer CG shots added to the remastered version of ST4. The original ST3 BoP then re-appears in both ST5 and then in ST6 as Chang's prototype - same colours, same size (110m).
We've also seen the same Bird of Prey from ST3, with more or less the same size and colours, as the IKS Pagh in TNG.
We've also seen both a K'Vort and B'Rel class in TNG, with sizes ranging from 310 to 650m, far larger than the Pagh, and painted in a much lighter green - these appear consistantly throughout the rest of TNG from around Season 3. These appear to have greeen on both the upper and lower wings with absolutely no red/brown decal.
ST Generations, which is confirmed as being a "D12 class", appears to have reverted back to the original colour schemes of ST3.
In DS9 we're back to seing two BoP's, one around 60m and more commonly one around 110m. The colours on these are again different - we have some which are the darker ST3 green, others that appear to be the lighter TNG green, and yet more that are the mid-range green from the ST4 CG shot. Likewise some have red/brown decals underneath, some are all green, some have 3 different shades of green on the top feathers, and some are all the same colour - but not of them have canon comfirmation of class.
Its probably important to note that DS9 also saw a complete colour change for all other Klingon ships with a more consistant green being used across the board.
Clearly there is very little consistancy on colours, size, or even class. If that doesn't already make the whole point open to debate, practicaly every soft canon (games, books etc) is even less consistant with "B'Rel" class BoP's often having painted decals on both top and bottom which is arugably to blame for many fans believing that they're painted this way in actual Trek.
Personaly I agree with Alex in that the top of the wings shouldn't have the red/brown colour scheme, but since we have so little solid evidence to say exactly what ship on-screen is a B'Rel and what isn't, I think its just simply better to leave it to the discretion of the Klingon Captain.
At the very least, two of the patterns could be made to act as the (Default) patterns like fed ships have, where one allows you to modify the lower and the other allows you to modify both. That would probably be the best compromise, but I somehow doubt that will ever see the light of day.
B'rel in STO is just another way of referring ot the Classic Bird Of Prey.
The fact remains that all canon appearances of Klingon "Bird Of Prey's" show the wing pattern to "always" have the same color as the main hull with subtle variations of shades, even though the Ventral pattern varies.
As such the Dorsal pattern on the B'rel in STO should be non-customizable.
It had several important points and has every baring.
This being one of the most important points.
"B'Rel" IS NOT just another way of referring to the "Classic Bird of Prey". The "Classic Bird of Prey" is only known as "Scout Class" and the only other Bird of Prey similar to it that was named on-screen was the D12 Class in Generations.
"B'Rel" is a very specific class of Bird of Prey that is mentioned, on-screen, in the TNG episode "Little Rascals", and as above is NOT the "Classic BoP".
Referring to a B'Rel as the smaller Bird of Prey is soft canon - that means it is NOT confirmed on-screen, but is instead referred too in books or games. Again Canon itself actually points to the B'Rel being the TNG Bird of Prey, NOT the Classic Bird of Prey.
Soft canon quite frequently has the B'Rel class with painted red/brown feathers on the top - to the point where something like 8 or 9 out of 10 games have the top of the wings painted red/brown.
The fact that most, or all, of the BoP's seen on screen have green upper wings is not that reliable as evidence because of how un-reliable the rest of the aspects of the BoP are, and since we're talking about a very specific class of Bird of Prey, you'd first need to confirm which on-screen BoP is actually a B'Rel class - and once more because of the episode Little Rascals that is a difficult task.
So you've got two choices here:
You either go by hard canon, in which case the B'Rel has to be completly removed from the game, or we go by soft canon and the top of the wings CAN be painted red/brown.
Star Trek is rarely as simple as "canon says", and the Bird of Prey is arguably the most difficult canon topic because it is the most inconsistant of any ship in the entire franchise.
Additionaly, that top pattern decal can only be coloured by picking specific patterns and, like all other ships in STO, there are many pattern combinations that have non-canon coloured patterns on pretty much every single ship. Why should the B'Rel now be a special case?
[EDIT]:
Something else to keep in mind in regards to BoP wing pattern colours, one of the original Bird of Prey conceptual drawings had the red on the top: http://johneaves.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/kling-bop.jpg?w=665&h=521
This original concept has clearly been used by Cryptic to design both the Hegh'ta and several of the other unique classes shown in STO.
Since this drawing, the basis, has red on the wings - and therefore all designs based off it are likely intended by Cryptic to have red of the wings, then there is additional weight to the argument that the Bird of Prey colour scheme for older classes may have been updated again to match the current standard - with the current standard having colours on the top.
As I pointed out, the Klingons have already completly changed colour schemes of existing classes seemingly at will, so there's no reason why this could not have been done again by 2409
B'rel Refit has weapons strip array on aft left side just under the wing, but not on aft right side.
I don't care if the strips are there or not, but the lack of symmetry is wrong.
I do not see why you countine to press the issue, its quite clear the colors the B'rel should have.
The Studio model and the CGI models all have green dorsal feather patterns of every Bird of Prey ever created.
Its very obvious that what the devs call B'rel is representing "The" Bird of Prey of Star Trek.
Honestly if your making a hard canon ship then there is no other way to paint it than in studio model/CGI colors.
Added to the front page
This is true. As there are no actual canon references to coloured dorsal feather patterns, I've added it to the canon discrepancies section for the B'rel.