Hey, thanks for the guide, I finally managed to put all my boffs in the same colours.
This has probably already been asked and answered, but what's the deal with the division colours in STO? I recognise that Tactical were assigned red probably purely for gameplay reasons, but does that mean 25th century uniforms have essentially scrapped the command red concept? I ask because if Tactical are red "officially", ie within the game's lore, my away team is going to look like TRIBBLE
Hey, thanks for the guide, I finally managed to put all my boffs in the same colours.
This has probably already been asked and answered, but what's the deal with the division colours in STO? I recognise that Tactical were assigned red probably purely for gameplay reasons, but does that mean 25th century uniforms have essentially scrapped the command red concept? I ask because if Tactical are red "officially", ie within the game's lore, my away team is going to look like TRIBBLE
It's a bit of a gray area. If you look at Star Trek canon, you'll notice a few things:
1. In "future" episodes, the Command Red, Operations Yellow, and Science Blue is maintained. (in order chronologically: Voy: "Timeless", TNG: "All Good Things", Voy: "Endgame", DS9: "Visitor")
2. In the distant future, there is a clear separation between Command and the other branches, though the colors do seem to have been changed again. (Voy: "Relativity")
If you look at STO itself, you will notice that Command officers still tend to wear red, which doesn't mean they aren't all Tactical, but I would doubt it. (Admiral Quinn, Admiral Valoura, etc)
It's a bit of a gray area. If you look at Star Trek canon, you'll notice a few things:
1. In "future" episodes, the Command Red, Operations Yellow, and Science Blue is maintained. (in order chronologically: Voy: "Timeless", TNG: "All Good Things", Voy: "Endgame", DS9: "Visitor")
2. In the distant future, there is a clear separation between Command and the other branches, though the colors do seem to have been changed again. (Voy: "Relativity")
If you look at STO itself, you will notice that Command officers still tend to wear red, which doesn't mean they aren't all Tactical, but I would doubt it. (Admiral Quinn, Admiral Valoura, etc)
Historically, it's LINE officers that rise to command, which would be represented by Tactical officers. Science and Engineering officers would be STAFF officers. In modern navies, it's kind of unusual for a staff officer to rise to command rank.
On the other hand, there's LOTS of evidence that this is not true for Starfleet. In TOS era, we saw command rank officers in blue and red, indicating command officers in science and engineering/security professions. By the movies, command officers were wearing white, whatever their original profession (Spock, for example, wore white instead of the science gray). This practice of changing to the "command" colour was continued from that point (Janeway, Picard and Data all changed to red from their original colours - blue, blue and gold, respectively...).
The point here is, we have no way to know the branch of any of the Admirals in the game, as they would have switched to red when they took a command posting.
Except for TOS, red was always command or navigation. Security always wore operations division color - gold.
That is why most people on starships wear gold. To this day I still have a hard time understanding why Cryptic couldn't get it right. Perhaps it was easier to make three divisions instead of six (Red: Command and Navigation; Gold: Engineering and Security; Blue/Teal: Science and Medical).
Well, there were actually several departments, but three colours.
in TOS, it was:
Gold: Command Operations (helmsmen, navigators and other ship control personnel).
Blue: Sciences, including Medical
Red: Engineering, Support Operations, Security
TNG simply switched the red and the gold, the divisions remained the same. The only other change was that officers changed to red when they were given a command assignment (ie. Captain/Executive Officer), where in TOS times they kept their original branch colour.
I actually like the three colour system now.
Gold : Engineering
Blue : Sciences
Red : Tactical (including both helmsmen AND security officers)
Are you trying to say Kirk was a Operations officer before becoming Captain and that Spock would still wear his science colors if he was given command before the movies? It was my understanding that even in TOS you changed your division color to Command Gold when you were given command of a starship or otherwise promoted to Commodore or the Admiralty regardless of your original division colors, but you kept your originals while First Officers and lower, explaining Spock's Science Blue.
Even following that logic it's a bit of a gray area if you're allowed to keep your original division colors when given command or at least promoted to admiralty in any of the series. We have at least one Commodore who wore Engineering Red during TOS: http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Stone_%28Commodore%29 There's also at least one Admiral in Deep Space Nine that wore a Gold division color instead of the typical Command Red of the twenty-fourth century: http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Toddman
I've also read that Scotty, when he became Captain, still wore his Engineering division colors when in full uniform. I'm not sure where on Memory Alpha I read that though. This seems to indicate that while it is generally standard procedure for an officer to switch their division color to whatever the current Command division color is, but in rare cases an officer decides to stay in their original colors. I personally use this as an excuse for why my Engineering Captain still uses her Engineering Division color despite now being in command of a star ship. The real reason is simply so people I team up with will have a visual cue as to my role in the party, but it makes a nice little back story reason.
Are you trying to say Kirk was a Operations officer before becoming Captain and that Spock would still wear his science colors if he was given command before the movies? It was my understanding that even in TOS you changed your division color to Command Gold when you were given command of a starship or otherwise promoted to Commodore or the Admiralty regardless of your original division colors, but you kept your originals while First Officers and lower, explaining Spock's Science Blue.
Even following that logic it's a bit of a gray area if you're allowed to keep your original division colors when given command or at least promoted to admiralty in any of the series. We have at least one Commodore who wore Engineering Red during TOS: http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Stone_%28Commodore%29 There's also at least one Admiral in Deep Space Nine that wore a Gold division color instead of the typical Command Red of the twenty-fourth century: http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Toddman
I've also read that Scotty, when he became Captain, still wore his Engineering division colors when in full uniform. I'm not sure where on Memory Alpha I read that though. This seems to indicate that while it is generally standard procedure for an officer to switch their division color to whatever the current Command division color is, but in rare cases an officer decides to stay in their original colors. I personally use this as an excuse for why my Engineering Captain still uses her Engineering Division color despite now being in command of a star ship. The real reason is simply so people I team up with will have a visual cue as to my role in the party, but it makes a nice little back story reason.
Kirk was definitely a tactical officer, so yes he did change from operations red to command gold.
As to Scotty, he held the rank of Captain, but as far as I know he was not actually in command of any starships. He was the Chief Engineer of the Excelsior, referred to as the "Captain of Engineering," but was not in the command division.
Lastly, I think you're confusing rank with division. Possessing the rank of Captain or Admiral does not automatically place you in the command division. A few examples: Commodore Stocker - Operations division Commodore Stone - Operations division Montgomery Scott - Operations division (engineering) Captain Krasnovsky - Science division Vice Admiral Toddman - Operations division (security branch)
Kirk was definitely a tactical officer, so yes he did change from operations red to command gold.
As to Scotty, he held the rank of Captain, but as far as I know he was not actually in command of any starships. He was the Chief Engineer of the Excelsior, referred to as the "Captain of Engineering," but was not in the command division.
Lastly, I think you're confusing rank with division. Possessing the rank of Captain or Admiral does not automatically place you in the command division. A few examples: Commodore Stocker - Operations division Commodore Stone - Operations division Montgomery Scott - Operations division (engineering) Captain Krasnovsky - Science division Vice Admiral Toddman - Operations division (security branch)
What division Kirk was from originally is debatable, but as I say, we saw officers of command rank in their native colours, even as Captains (such as those individuals you listed). That is, they made Captain and RETAINED the colour of their division. They didn't change to gold, even though they were almost all starship commanders.
But that was the ORIGINAL SERIES period. As of the movies, that policy changed. Spock, for example, wore WHITE as a Captain, not the grey a science officer would wear.
Thus, during TOS times, if Lieutenant Smith wore gold, he would still wear gold as a Captain. If he wore blue, he would still wear blue as a Captain. You would wear your division colour regardless of rank.
During TMP an later periods, Captain Smith would wear white, as that's the command division colour.
Presumably, in later eras, you would only change colours if you took a command position. That is, Scotty retained his engineering colour as a Captain because he was not a ship's Commanding Officer. You would change colour as a result of position, not as a result of rank.
The only real problem with your statements of the Next Generation era, Mojo, is we do have a documented Vice Admiral who did not wear Command Red. I'll admit it is very rare to see a non-Command Red Admiral, we still see one. This may be a costuming error, but you can barely make out a gold trim going down the front of the uniform indicating that he is intended to be an Admiral and the costume was intentionally made. Beyond that, I see nothing wrong with your observations.
Cuatela, there is a problem with your arguments. At least two of your examples are in command positions. Stocker was in command of Starbase 10, and Krasnovsky was the captain of a starship, both clear command positions yet they wore division colors that were not of the command division for the time.
The answer is simple guys. It's the Captain's/Commodore's/Admiral's prerogative. They are not bound to wear a specific color because they are in a command position. That's why Captains can also decide to wear Captain's Variants, as Kirk, Picard and Sisko often did.
Just to clarify the reasoning to the linking poster: the in progress pics are taken from files that are part of the client on people's computers, but not actually released to the game. Posting them is against the Forum Rules, and we don't want this thread to get closed.
(Although it's always seemed silly to me that MMO companies would put stuff on people's computers that they didn't want seen before it was "officially" released)
Nice to see this thread is still around, and updated too.
For someone such as myself that has difficulty telling colors apart when they are very close, it's fantastic.
The effort that went into this is impressive. And to see it updated for new outfits is also quite nice.
Thanks again.
Nice to see this thread is still around, and updated too.
For someone such as myself that has difficulty telling colors apart when they are very close, it's fantastic.
The effort that went into this is impressive. And to see it updated for new outfits is also quite nice.
Thanks again.
To clear up a few of your questions regarding the Federation 500 Day Veteran rewards:
The 500 Day Veteran Reward includes:
1 Jupiter Series Veteran Uniform Jacket
This is a unique jacket, in one of our new styles. (*See note below*)
You will be able to choose a Veteran Decorated version, with metallic decoration on the shoulders, or a non-decorated version, if you don't want to wear the vet-bling.
1 United Federation of Planets belt
It's sweet, trust me.
Bonus for the Federation 500 Day Rewards:
Veteran Decoration on 5 upcoming uniforms
After we made the Veteran Uniform option with the metallic decoration on the shoulders, I thought... "Hey, that looks cool... can I put that on a few more uniforms?" And yes, I can. So I went ahead and made "Veteran Decorated" variants of all the new Jupiter Uniforms coming out. If you are a 500 Day Vet, and you purchase the upcoming Jupiter Uniform pack, those uniforms will give you the option to use a Veteran Decorated material on it. It's just another way for us to add an extra little treat for our Vet players.
What's the Jupiter Series?
"Jupiter" is the name we have given our new series of uniforms. You can think of a "series" as a style, including the cut and texture. It's a thematic look for a set of uniforms. The uniforms currently called "A" and "B" are 2 series currently in the game, and they are being renamed to "Antares" and "Sierra". The Antares uniforms all have a similar feel to them, as do the Sierra. The Jupiter are a longer cut, with a generally "higher ranking" feel to them. We wanted the 500 Day Veteran reward to have this same feel, so we went the new Jupiter series feel.
Hope that helps a bit! Let me know if you have any more questions!
Cheers,
Matt
Should at least be something to work with for now.
Should at least be something to work with for now.
Thanks! I can't wait. I especially like the Mirror Universe one. I hope that's part of the set. The asymmetrical look would be great for a new 29th century mock-up.
Blackavaar, You have done a terrific job detailing just about everything that is Star Trek. With out your expertise and info, This game would not be as well detailed as it is. Once again, Thank You
Thanks! I can't wait. I especially like the Mirror Universe one. I hope that's part of the set. The asymmetrical look would be great for a new 29th century mock-up.
:cool:
I thought that too when I saw it, probably will not buy it. But I look forward to seeing what you do with it none the less.
Blackavaar, words can not express how useful this guide is nor how thankful I am for it. It's my go to for the numerous costume changes I make a day and I'm surprised I haven't said so already. Thanks again and keep up the awesome work; it is much appreciated.
Blackavaar, I know you get this a lot, but thank you for all the hard work. I use your guide for every crew I have, and also for my fleet's uniforms. It adds an extra level of immersion to the game. Thanks again.
Blackavaar, You have done a terrific job detailing just about everything that is Star Trek. With out your expertise and info, This game would not be as well detailed as it is. Once again, Thank You
Blackavaar, words can not express how useful this guide is nor how thankful I am for it. It's my go to for the numerous costume changes I make a day and I'm surprised I haven't said so already. Thanks again and keep up the awesome work; it is much appreciated.
Blackavaar, I know you get this a lot, but thank you for all the hard work. I use your guide for every crew I have, and also for my fleet's uniforms. It adds an extra level of immersion to the game. Thanks again.
Your humble servant and appreciator of all things costume-***** beseeches you, nay prays that you'll devise a possible recreation of the Elite Force 2 Hazard Suit for use in the realms of STO.
Your humble servant and appreciator of all things costume-***** beseeches you, nay prays that you'll devise a possible recreation of the Elite Force 2 Hazard Suit for use in the realms of STO.
I'll check that out and see what I can do for you. In preparation for more additions the Traffic Control and Miral Paris variants have been moved to the 25th Century Variants section.
Comments
I hear ya, just thought I'd give advice.
By the way, I never woulda thought to use the uniform like that, good job
This has probably already been asked and answered, but what's the deal with the division colours in STO? I recognise that Tactical were assigned red probably purely for gameplay reasons, but does that mean 25th century uniforms have essentially scrapped the command red concept? I ask because if Tactical are red "officially", ie within the game's lore, my away team is going to look like TRIBBLE
It's a bit of a gray area. If you look at Star Trek canon, you'll notice a few things:
1. In "future" episodes, the Command Red, Operations Yellow, and Science Blue is maintained. (in order chronologically: Voy: "Timeless", TNG: "All Good Things", Voy: "Endgame", DS9: "Visitor")
2. In the distant future, there is a clear separation between Command and the other branches, though the colors do seem to have been changed again. (Voy: "Relativity")
If you look at STO itself, you will notice that Command officers still tend to wear red, which doesn't mean they aren't all Tactical, but I would doubt it. (Admiral Quinn, Admiral Valoura, etc)
Historically, it's LINE officers that rise to command, which would be represented by Tactical officers. Science and Engineering officers would be STAFF officers. In modern navies, it's kind of unusual for a staff officer to rise to command rank.
On the other hand, there's LOTS of evidence that this is not true for Starfleet. In TOS era, we saw command rank officers in blue and red, indicating command officers in science and engineering/security professions. By the movies, command officers were wearing white, whatever their original profession (Spock, for example, wore white instead of the science gray). This practice of changing to the "command" colour was continued from that point (Janeway, Picard and Data all changed to red from their original colours - blue, blue and gold, respectively...).
The point here is, we have no way to know the branch of any of the Admirals in the game, as they would have switched to red when they took a command posting.
Except for TOS, red was always command or navigation. Security always wore operations division color - gold.
That is why most people on starships wear gold. To this day I still have a hard time understanding why Cryptic couldn't get it right. Perhaps it was easier to make three divisions instead of six (Red: Command and Navigation; Gold: Engineering and Security; Blue/Teal: Science and Medical).
in TOS, it was:
Gold: Command Operations (helmsmen, navigators and other ship control personnel).
Blue: Sciences, including Medical
Red: Engineering, Support Operations, Security
TNG simply switched the red and the gold, the divisions remained the same. The only other change was that officers changed to red when they were given a command assignment (ie. Captain/Executive Officer), where in TOS times they kept their original branch colour.
I actually like the three colour system now.
Gold : Engineering
Blue : Sciences
Red : Tactical (including both helmsmen AND security officers)
Even following that logic it's a bit of a gray area if you're allowed to keep your original division colors when given command or at least promoted to admiralty in any of the series. We have at least one Commodore who wore Engineering Red during TOS: http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Stone_%28Commodore%29 There's also at least one Admiral in Deep Space Nine that wore a Gold division color instead of the typical Command Red of the twenty-fourth century: http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Toddman
I've also read that Scotty, when he became Captain, still wore his Engineering division colors when in full uniform. I'm not sure where on Memory Alpha I read that though. This seems to indicate that while it is generally standard procedure for an officer to switch their division color to whatever the current Command division color is, but in rare cases an officer decides to stay in their original colors. I personally use this as an excuse for why my Engineering Captain still uses her Engineering Division color despite now being in command of a star ship. The real reason is simply so people I team up with will have a visual cue as to my role in the party, but it makes a nice little back story reason.
Kirk was definitely a tactical officer, so yes he did change from operations red to command gold.
As to Scotty, he held the rank of Captain, but as far as I know he was not actually in command of any starships. He was the Chief Engineer of the Excelsior, referred to as the "Captain of Engineering," but was not in the command division.
Lastly, I think you're confusing rank with division. Possessing the rank of Captain or Admiral does not automatically place you in the command division. A few examples:
Commodore Stocker - Operations division
Commodore Stone - Operations division
Montgomery Scott - Operations division (engineering)
Captain Krasnovsky - Science division
Vice Admiral Toddman - Operations division (security branch)
What division Kirk was from originally is debatable, but as I say, we saw officers of command rank in their native colours, even as Captains (such as those individuals you listed). That is, they made Captain and RETAINED the colour of their division. They didn't change to gold, even though they were almost all starship commanders.
But that was the ORIGINAL SERIES period. As of the movies, that policy changed. Spock, for example, wore WHITE as a Captain, not the grey a science officer would wear.
Thus, during TOS times, if Lieutenant Smith wore gold, he would still wear gold as a Captain. If he wore blue, he would still wear blue as a Captain. You would wear your division colour regardless of rank.
During TMP an later periods, Captain Smith would wear white, as that's the command division colour.
Presumably, in later eras, you would only change colours if you took a command position. That is, Scotty retained his engineering colour as a Captain because he was not a ship's Commanding Officer. You would change colour as a result of position, not as a result of rank.
Cuatela, there is a problem with your arguments. At least two of your examples are in command positions. Stocker was in command of Starbase 10, and Krasnovsky was the captain of a starship, both clear command positions yet they wore division colors that were not of the command division for the time.
:cool:
No worries, man. These conversations are fun to read anyway.
BTW, 19 days until I get the new Jupiter uniform. Whatever that is. Yay! The guides will follow shortly after. Can't wait.
:cool:
:cool:
Just to clarify the reasoning to the linking poster: the in progress pics are taken from files that are part of the client on people's computers, but not actually released to the game. Posting them is against the Forum Rules, and we don't want this thread to get closed.
(Although it's always seemed silly to me that MMO companies would put stuff on people's computers that they didn't want seen before it was "officially" released)
For someone such as myself that has difficulty telling colors apart when they are very close, it's fantastic.
The effort that went into this is impressive. And to see it updated for new outfits is also quite nice.
Thanks again.
You're very welcome.
:cool:
A bunch more people might get to use this super sweet guide
Well, from Dstahl's twitter:
And further information from this thread:
Should at least be something to work with for now.
Thanks! I can't wait. I especially like the Mirror Universe one. I hope that's part of the set. The asymmetrical look would be great for a new 29th century mock-up.
:cool:
I thought that too when I saw it, probably will not buy it. But I look forward to seeing what you do with it none the less.
That's a great idea!:cool:
P.S. Cryptic, I want MOAR UNI4MS!
Thanks a lot guys! You're all very welcome!
:cool:
Your humble servant and appreciator of all things costume-***** beseeches you, nay prays that you'll devise a possible recreation of the Elite Force 2 Hazard Suit for use in the realms of STO.
/bow
/worship
/snicker
Just playin' chief. Just curious if you have any ideas on how to recreate this:
http://images.wikia.com/startrek/images/c/c1/Hazard_Team_group_photo_-_2380.jpg
I'll check that out and see what I can do for you.
In preparation for more additions the Traffic Control and Miral Paris variants have been moved to the 25th Century Variants section.
:cool: