I used the car as a metaphor,sorry people can't understand that, and I use only the good parts, if you read what I posted above you will see that, and sorry I may not be as rich as you and get the water cooling system, or the tri athlon mega dominating your face CPU, and the Apocalypse your face GPU with the Supermans breath cooling system hooked to that, but I know for a fact my system is well put together, with the proper precision and research I can spend.
then something is still put together wrong. Any properly built system should not run with temps like that. You don't need water cooling and all that. Just proper airflow and proper fans. Any machine built should be built to be able to handle the GPUs and CPUs running at 100% for any given length of time. The fans should auto speed up to compensate to keep them within health temps.
I bet if you use the nvidia software and set your GPU fan to 80% or faster the temps will come down to 50 or 60c as well as incr the speeds of your case fan(s)
Yep. I think the real problem here is that some of you want to play STO but you don't want to have to build or purchase a system that can handle it. That's not STO's problem and you're in denial. If you wanna play, you gotta pay.
Just because you bought something 2 years ago, doesn't mean that it's capable of handling a front-line software without issues. Over the life of a component there are many factors that help determine the overall life of it and many of those things are directly affected by YOU the consumer/builder.
I don't care why you think you're overheating and it doesn't matter anyway. If you are, then you are. Plain and simple. It needs to be fixed. Because you think you know what you're doing doesn't mean you didn't miss something. It's completely presumptuous and arrogant to then say you know all and people with real world experience and training are ignorant. Instead of trying to bold face tell us you're a god of IT, why don't you instead ask for help. Show us some pictures of your tower, where you keep it, the inside of it, the specs on the fans and their CFM and RPM.
People like me come here to led our personal and professional experience to others who don't have that. All we get for that is people calling us noobs and trying to suggest that WE'RE the ones that don't know what we're talking about. This forum is mostly here for peer to peer support. Not just for Devs. Devs don't have time to address every single persons issues and that's why we come here to help. If you keep acting like this, then maybe those who can help will decide not to and then what? Where are you going to get help for your problem then?
EDIT: I have no problem helping people here for free. Otherwise, outside of here, I charge by the hour.
Dont forget there's another and FREE solution... people can turn the game resolution down, shadows off, etc.. a lot of the bells and whistles to take the load off if they are overheating... they just don't want to
But again, an overheating system is a sign of either a poorly constructed system OR a system that hasn't been properly maintained ... oh or overlocked w/o proper cooling
OMG a GTX 285 and you're complaining about 77C? LOL. Cryptic can't fix your lack of knowledge.
Something is wrong with your rig. I have 2 GTX 295s side by side and they never go over 50-60c in the game.. and I have 4 GPUs slamming away.
Now 77c is ok for that card, but it should be that high. Do you have all the nvidia software installed and do you have it set to raise the GPU fan as temps rise?
A lot of people with nvidia and ati cards just default and assume the card will auto incr the fan and or the system bios will auto inc the cpu or case fans.. this isn't the case in a lot of systems.
You actually have to install the nvidia monitoring software and tell it to set the fan at XX % speed at XXc... you can put it just "auto" mode, but like i said, some card manufacturers won't work properly.
then something is still put together wrong. Any properly built system should not run with temps like that. You don't need water cooling and all that. Just proper airflow and proper fans. Any machine built should be built to be able to handle the GPUs and CPUs running at 100% for any given length of time. The fans should auto speed up to compensate to keep them within health temps.
Exactly; this is the disconnect people have from reality. They come in and yell about how STO made there hardware run at 100% load, which resulted in it being damaged, and therefore STO damaged their hardware, whilst remaining blissfully ignorant of the fact that hardware is designed to run at 100% load.
Now, I think Cryptic has some coding issues to work out, and I hope that this game is a little lighter on these systems as time goes, as no game (even one beyond a computer's capacity to run) should be running components at full load like a CPU/GPU stressor would. That said, it is not Cryptic's fault that a computer cannot handle running at full load, therefore the fact that STO was the catalyst (and nothing more) for overheating hardware is not their fault, because in the end, STO is still doing nothing that a proper setup is not designed to handle.
I've hit the high system loads from STO, and have had the 1700 frame per second refresh rates on loading screens rev up my computer's fans a bit, but STO still doesn't get the CPU above about 47, nor the GPU above 65 (usually not above 60). STO is nowhere near as intensive as something like Furmark is, and even if it was, overheating wouldn't be Cryptic's fault, because a proper setup should be able to run Furmark for extended periods of time anyways. It's just software; it can't be solely responsible for hardware failure (again, short of overclocking routines that STO clearly doesn't have).
Exactly; this is the disconnect people have from reality. They come in and yell about how STO made there hardware run at 100% load, which resulted in it being damaged, and therefore STO damaged their hardware, whilst remaining blissfully ignorant of the fact that hardware is designed to run at 100% load.
Now, I think Cryptic has some coding issues to work out, and I hope that this game is a little lighter on these systems as time goes, as no game (even one beyond a computer's capacity to run) should be running components at full load like a CPU/GPU stressor would. That said, it is not Cryptic's fault that a computer cannot handle running at full load, therefore the fact that STO was the catalyst (and nothing more) for overheating hardware is not their fault, because in the end, STO is still doing nothing that a proper setup is not designed to handle.
I've hit the high system loads from STO, and have had the 1700 frame per second refresh rates on loading screens rev up my computer's fans a bit, but STO still doesn't get the CPU above about 47, nor the GPU above 65 (usually not above 60). STO is nowhere near as intensive as something like Furmark is, and even if it was, overheating wouldn't be Cryptic's fault, because a proper setup should be able to run Furmark for extended periods of time anyways. It's just software; it can't be solely responsible for hardware failure (again, short of overclocking routines that STO clearly doesn't have).
As I said in another post.. many machines won't incr the fan speeds. My last machine, a dell xps 710, had the fans (cpu/case) FIXED at 6% no matter what and the GPU at the time a 8800 GTX wouldn't auto incr either.
I had to get the nvidia tools and set up a profile to adjust my fan speeds. Now that is a bit complex, but a user can manually use the tools to just speed up the fans which is easy.. it might not be as quiet, but that's not cryptics fault. That's the fault of whomever built the machine should have put in less noisey fans
Although since then Dell has learned and now installed the nvidia tools so all new dell/alienware systems shouldn't have that issue I had a few yrs ago
Okay, moving the video card or lowering the clock speed on my ram didn't work afterall, just for a little while I wasn't crashing. Is it possible this might all be related to power supply failures? My video card wasn't getting much above 80 degrees, which shouldn't be cause for huge concern. Is the power supply not providing it with enough juice, perhaps? How could one tell?
My roommate sits behind me on a Dell Xps 720. A dual core system at 2.4GHz and a Nvidia GTS 250.
He runs the game at 2560x1600 with all settings maxxed except:
all shadows off
no AA, but AF 16
depth of field off
ambienent occlusion off
all the rest of the settings are maxxed..... and he gets about 40fps in space and 25-30 fps on the ground. He could havea LOT better fps if he ran in 1920x1200 but he refuses. He likes the high rez better at the cost of fps. His choice.
now... I've never heard his computer make much noise...
Since he got STO... I've heard this high pitch whine coming from his system. It's his GPU fan. I installed the nvidia software a few yrs ago on his machine when he bought it so it will always auto adjust the GPU fans.
Absolutely STO puts a load on his GPU than I've never seen any other mmo or game he has played
BUT his system does JUST what it should, incr the fan speeds... and his GPU never runs over 55c while in STO.
So... what's STO guilty of? Putting a HEAVY load on GPUs... is that an issue. ABSOLUTELY NOT.
It's up to the USER to either turn DOWN their game setting, clean their machine, or make sure their fans are auto adjusting to the temp. To be easier they can also just manually FIX the fan speeds before launching STO
Now, if I never installed that software, he would have played STO, his card would have over heated, and crashed his system (probably not killed it). One or two overheats shouldn't kill a card. ALL modern CPU and GPUs are programmed to shut off at a certain temp (although SOME will fail before that shutdown is reached because they are faulty). Keep in mind he has an "older" system although it does have Win 7 on it. My point was, back then Dell did NOTHING for fan management. Would it have been the game's fault if his fans never sped up because I didn't install that software? NOPE. DELLS FAULT for not putting proper fan control into the system.
Keep in mind the fan controls DO NOT come with the nvidia drivers!
TO ALL NVIDIA USERS (even if you don't have an nvidia mobo)... this is the software that will at LEAST help you regulate your GPU speed. Either manually or by telling it when the card is at TRIBBLE temp make the fan speed TRIBBLE %. For those that have an nvidia mobo, it will give you control of ALL your fans:
I'm also still running the W7 RC (build 7100) as well as hardware that is at least 1 year old and at the time was definitely not even middle of the line.
I'm not discounting those observances. I am however curious as to whether those system's specs that have observed these issues have been recorded by Cryptic.
There have been far too many observances of systems that would seem to have met the minimum requirements yet seem to have serious performance issues.
I have a Dell 720 as well, had 2x SLI 8800 GTXs in it. Had it for over three years now. A few months ago, I upgraded the video cards to a single Radeon 4890. Seemed to make a big difference in the games I was playing at the time, but according to Tomshardware, the 8800 GTXs together do better. Maybe I should swap back?
FYI I'm trying to help you people with overheating issue, and I appologize if on some posts I have been rude or snappy. It's just that I've been in the computer hw industry and sw industry for over 20 yrs, and when I hear someoen say "a game killed my card," I want to slap them for saying (in my mind) is one of the more ignorant statements I can think of... but after thinking.. not everyone knows certain things about computers.
HELL people think shows like The Net can really happen.. or what your see on the computer screen on CSI are real (when it just really a bunch of junk and 99% of it is fake).
so that being in mind, I appologize if I have been rude or called any of you names.
My goal here is to help, and I don't want to insult.
I've made a copy of this post in 3 forums as well as my prev post with a link for nvidias sofware for fan control. I'm sure some ATI user on here can post a link for ati people
But follow these steps and I 100% guarentee your card(s) will cool down, and if not there is something wrong with your card or case
1) Have fan control software installed
2) Make sure the system is cleaned out, esp the gpu. If you dont have a can of compressed air, you can do this. Take our your video card. Point the end with where the DVI cable goes in towards your face.. see the airflowslots.. take a deep breath.. put it up to your mouth and give it a big PUFF! A bunch of dust should SPEW out the fan and other areas of the card... oh.... and be careful not to spit into your card! LOL Do this a few times. Also if you notice any hair or lint in the fan or card.. gently pull it out. You can also puff on the fan.. sides of the card, etc... to get dust out of every section. NOTE: this is OLD SCHOOL.. but JUST to be safe... GROUND yourself before handling your card.. meaning.. touch your case a metal part so you have no static energy in you.
If you have compressed air use it, but BE CAREFUL. Using air wrong can cause the liquid inside to come out and damage your card
3) If you are savvy enough, set the controls to 10% fan speed if the card is under 40c, 50% if the card is at 50C and 100% if the card is at 80c. Now these aren't really fixed. The software has a graft. Meaning... below 40 it would stay at 10%... as it approached 50c.. it would go from 10-50%. Provably 4-5% per degree. I say 100% at 80c because anytyhing over 80 is HOT. Now if at 100% speed your GPU is STILL over 80c in game AND you have cleaned it, make sure u have good airflow and your case fan speeds are higher. You can do this in this software too.. IF you have an nvidia mobo.... you can tell it if the GPU is at TRIBBLE temp set the case fans to XXXX %. LASTLY, take of the side of your computer and put a fan next to it and blow air into it.. if that fixes it, then you KNOW your computer has a case airflow design fault. Dell XPS 710s have this issue and the MCP chip can get over 100C and burn up if the sys fans aren't at at least 50%
If the card is STILL overheating.. it is faulty.
4) You can also turn the game options down to reduce the load. Using the FPS limit on the game really doesn't take the load of your GPU if it still has to draaw shadows and other HDR and high end effects. Those all need to go.
5) Lastly - unless a machine is H2O cooled, computers have MAJOR issues with air cooling in rooms over 80F. I doubt this is an issue as it's winter where most people are playing LOL. But your computer should always be in a room under 75F if possible. Remember air cools 23X SLOWER than water can.
In closing, about all Cryptic could do is tell people "This is a VERY GPU intensive game. Please make sure you have a properly cleaned system with proper cooling software installed and you are not overclocking the game before running STO"
Now IMO they shouldn't need to do that, but on second thought, there's many people out there who don't know much about computers and really think things that can't happen, and will believe the most absurd things because they don't know otherwise.
I've said in many posts what people can do to solve their over heat issues and if those steps are followed and do not work, you have a flawed gpu, flawed cooling software, improper cooling somplace.
Yes your rig might work for every other game out there, but not for STO, and again that is NOT sto's fault.
I'll state one last time how to solve overheat in a nutshell
1) Clean out your gpu and all the system fans and heat syncs
2) make sure your fans incr in speed as the temps incr. If your card is at 80-90c it's fan had better be at 100%, if it's not - something is wrong
3) TURN DOWN THE FRICKIN GAME OPTIONS! (I've listed many times which ones are the worst gpu load offenders)
4) Limiting the game's fps to 30 CAN help in SOME situations, but it's not going to take that much of load off
If you have done ALL of the above then something is wrong with your system and it is not capable of playing this game, and you either need to fix it, or not play, end of story. They WILL NOT make the game look "less pretty" because 0.005% of the people usiung the game have heat issues.
Like I said this is my last post. I've tried to help everyone. If you can't understand, or won't listen, then it's your problem. Enjoy not playing the game in that case, because cryptic isn't going to change anything. This is YOUR responsibility to solve.
I have a Dell 720 as well, had 2x SLI 8800 GTXs in it. Had it for over three years now. A few months ago, I upgraded the video cards to a single Radeon 4890. Seemed to make a big difference in the games I was playing at the time, but according to Tomshardware, the 8800 GTXs together do better. Maybe I should swap back?
A lot of the 8800's had cooling issues. You should be fine with them if you make sure to micromanage your GPU fans. I'm not a big Radeon fan but as I understand it the 4890 should be fine, however, from what I've seen on the boards it appears that the catalyst drivers may be having a harder time with STO than the Nvidia drivers. Everyone has a unique story so it's difficult for me to pinpoint something I haven't tested or experienced first hand.
I think you're fine with what you have unless you start to experience driver related issues. Then you could give the SLI 8800's a shot but be very mindful of the GPU fans and force them to 100% duty cycle before running STO.
Okay, moving the video card or lowering the clock speed on my ram didn't work afterall, just for a little while I wasn't crashing. Is it possible this might all be related to power supply failures? My video card wasn't getting much above 80 degrees, which shouldn't be cause for huge concern. Is the power supply not providing it with enough juice, perhaps? How could one tell?
Yup, 80 C on a mid-level card is fine. As for your power supply, you'll have to give us your system specs in order to give you some direction.
3) TURN DOWN THE FRICKIN GAME OPTIONS! (I've listed many times which ones are the worst gpu load offenders)
QFT.
So these people couldn't afford to buy a solid gaming card. No problem. Yet I've seen so many run cards like a 9400 and 3350 on something ridiculous like 8x AA and all post processing effects enabled. That's a failing to understand computer gaming. :rolleyes:
Like I said this is my last post. I've tried to help everyone. If you can't understand, or won't listen, then it's your problem. Enjoy not playing the game in that case, because cryptic isn't going to change anything. This is YOUR responsibility to solve.
Yup, I hear you. Sometimes I lose patience too, especially when the same issues are brought up time and time again by new posters to a thread who haven't spent 5 minutes to look through the last few pages to see if their problem was addressed.
My cpu AMD 6400 + with core temp was going 80 c the 2 core's .
My cpu aint that great no more still dont get how that game can stress my system like that i have no probs running crysis all max video setting .
I am shure it is the last patch that hase some thing to do with it .
Ok, whoever says software can not damage hardware is just plain wrong.
I have software here on my comp that will destroy a harddrive when used long enough (speaking hours) and you can easily write software to kill a whole computer if you are into those kind of things. Hell, I still have software somewhere I wrote on a C64 ages ago that will destroy a floppy drive.
Destroying a graphics board that has just the standard cooling shouldn't prove to be a real challenge for a dedicated programmer. Even if the manufacturers say it, graphics cards are NOT made for running at 100% for like 10 hours at a time for days. At some point in time they will die.
Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow.... but making a card produce 100 FPS (which are totally useless cause you cant see them anyway) will damage the lifetime of your graphics card. And if you don't have a perfect setup it may die fast.
Well, swapped to the 8800 GTXs. Even though they take up all the emtpy room in my case, they run cool, quite and at a much better framerate as my ATI card, which would die from being overtaxed. Is this proof that there is indeed some STO related issues with the card? Or perhaps driver issues? Whatever it is, it certainly points to STO + ATI not being happy.
Is this proof that there is indeed some STO related issues with the card? Or perhaps driver issues? Whatever it is, it certainly points to STO + ATI not being happy.
Though, the ATI did anti-alias a lot better.
It's basicly all graphics cards. From what I can see, STO is maxing out the graphics card as much as it can without restricting itself to sensible computations.
Said differently... STO is acting dumb and will give your graphics card totally useless computation to do like increasing framerate way above 60 FPS, thus increasing heat stress on your card and on your whole system.
If your computer is perfectly cooled, it may just decrease the lifetime of your components. If its not, they may die.
I haven't had any issues with overheating. But my case is properly cooled. I have experienced running into resource issues.
This computer runs Crysis maxed out with no problems.
For as many resources as Star Trek online is using, I should be getting better graphics. Space looks like "Microsoft Freelancer" graphics and ground environments look absolutely terrible. Like "Command and Conquer Renegade" era. And the enemy AI is dumb like Wolfenstein 3D from 1992. The characters look like something out of Activeworlds/Alphaworld.
Freelancer came out in 2003 and Renegade came out in 2002.
For the resources that it is using, I'd expect a bit more out of the graphics.
That being said though. I've played other MMOs at their launch and things should improve. So long as people keep paying for the product.
I'll still be there playing, because this game still has a lot of potential and I'd like to support it for a while. However, if they don't improve things given a reasonable amount of time, then I will leave this game behind from something better.
Yeah, these graphics should not be eating the amount of resources they do.
Scay, you're not even remotely close to being right.
First off, your analogy is completely worthless. Floppy drives are mechanical objects with moving parts, as are hard drives, which means that even if you did have software that could "destroy a hard drive within hours" (which I doubt), it still has no bearing on this discussion.
Processors are absolutely designed to run at full load for extended periods of time. What the hell did you think "Prime95/Furmark stable" meant? Many good builders, and all competent overclockers will run these programs for hours before considering a machine stable. On my machine, neither the GPU nor CPU reach unsafe temperatures under full load, topping out at 75C and 48C respectively (though the GPU usually doesn't pass 60C), and running them for hours, days, or even weeks would be no issue. Indeed, both are run intensively for hours a day as it is. Neither have aftermarket cooling, both are overclocked, and both do what you claim hardware can't do. So much for that theory.
Your examples of what would "damage" a card also have relatively little to do with reality. Having a card produce a mere 100fps in a 3d application is hardly a damaging activity. Again, my cards do it for hours a day, and before you make comments on the life of my hardware, my Radeon X850PRO from 2004 is still running without a hitch (now in a hand-me-down machine), and it's by far the worst cooled component I've ever owned due to its single-slot cooler.
Scay, you're not even remotely close to being right.
First off, your analogy is completely worthless. Floppy drives are mechanical objects with moving parts, as are hard drives, which means that even if you did have software that could "destroy a hard drive within hours" (which I doubt), it still has no bearing on this discussion.
Processors are absolutely designed to run at full load for extended periods of time. What the hell did you think "Prime95/Furmark stable" meant? Many good builders, and all competent overclockers will run these programs for hours before considering a machine stable. On my machine, neither the GPU nor CPU reach unsafe temperatures under full load, topping out at 75C and 48C respectively (though the GPU usually doesn't pass 60C), and running them for hours, days, or even weeks would be no issue. Indeed, both are run intensively for hours a day as it is. Neither have aftermarket cooling, both are overclocked, and both do what you claim hardware can't do. So much for that theory.
Your examples of what would "damage" a card also have relatively little to do with reality. Having a card produce a mere 100fps in a 3d application is hardly a damaging activity. Again, my cards do it for hours a day, and before you make comments on the life of my hardware, my Radeon X850PRO from 2004 is still running without a hitch (now in a hand-me-down machine), and it's by far the worst cooled component I've ever owned due to its single-slot cooler.
You can easily google up software to kill a harddrive.
Anyway, although a CPU and a GPU may be able to run 100% for some time, I can make ALL your computer components run at 100% all the time. That includes network, GPUs, all cores, harddrives, possibly CDROMS, everything. Just running your GPU and CPU at 100% will not overheat a working system, but if you increase the heat further by CDROM and HDDs it may. Maybe not on your computer if you built it in a fridge but certainly on a high percentage of computer systems sold.
Computers are just not made for running the entire system at full speed, and there is not a single software to test it, because its friggin stupid to do it, it will damage your computer over time.
I didnt say 100 FPS will damage your card, I said 100 FPS is an absolutely useless framerate that should never be produced. STO will produce FPS in the 1000th which may damage a weaker system though.
You can easily google up software to kill a harddrive.
Anyway, although a CPU and a GPU may be able to run 100% for some time, I can make ALL your computer components run at 100% all the time. That includes network, GPUs, all cores, harddrives, possibly CDROMS, everything. Just running your GPU and CPU at 100% will not overheat a working system, but if you increase the heat further by CDROM and HDDs it may. Maybe not on your computer if you built it in a fridge but certainly on a high percentage of computer systems sold.
Computers are just not made for running the entire system at full speed, and there is not a single software to test it, because its friggin stupid to do it, it will damage your computer over time.
I didnt say 100 FPS will damage your card, I said 100 FPS is an absolutely useless framerate that should never be produced. STO will produce FPS in the 1000th which may damage a weaker system though.
The operative words in that whole paragraph are "weaker system". STO will do nothing that can damage a properly fabricated, constructed and maintained system that runs at the proper specifications. Yes, software can damage hardware if it is designed to; I can damage hardware just by going into my BIOS (which is software, albeit rudimentary software), and maxing out my VCORE and FSB frequency. You can damage a floppy drive (or at least could at one time) by having software misalign the internal components, as certain viruses for the Amiga did years ago.
We are not, however, discussing whether it is possible to intentionally produce software which can directly or indirectly damage hardware. We are discussing Star Trek Online, a piece of software which cannot harm a system unless the system already has some failing within its hardware already, be it insufficient cooling, a bad component, old components, or a number of other weaknesses in hardware.
We are discussing Star Trek Online, a piece of software which cannot harm a system unless the system already has some failing within its hardware already, be it insufficient cooling, a bad component, old components, or a number of other weaknesses in hardware.
It can harm a standard system people buy from supermarkets, discount shops or other non-geek ways to buy a computer. It doesnt matter if those computers for YOU are having weaknesses, they dont for the people that bought them.
You think its smart that STO is putting totally unneeded stress on the computers of their customers to a point that some will fail?
It can harm a standard system people buy from supermarkets, discount shops or other non-geek ways to buy a computer. It doesnt matter if those computers for YOU are having weaknesses, they dont for the people that bought them.
You think its smart that STO is putting totally unneeded stress on the computers of their customers to a point that some will fail?
I dont.
I think Cryptic better fixes this asap.
Scay I'm sorry but respectfully your just plain wrong on this topic. If you want proof please take my challenge and post your question on either of the above mentioned forums (MSDN or Nvidia developers forums). If you want proof of my credentials please don't hesitate to private message me. Frankly posts like the above are financially damaging to Cryptic, Microsoft, its partners, and the graphics card manufacturers.
Obviously, in your case, not all people are created equal. Some people can't handle the mental stress of being in combat arms branches of the military for years as I did. Some people just aren't cut out for it and can't handle it.
Obviously, in your computers case, not all machines are created equal. Some machines can't handle the stress of being subjected to demanding software. Some machines just aren't cut out for it and can't handle it.
See what I did there?
Your points are completely ignorant and invalid. Your back is to the wall because logic and truth prevail. You argue that it is possible for software to damage hardware. Yes, that is true. Although, the only software that can is MALICIOUS software!!!! STO is not malicious software and if it was, they could be sued and brought up on federal charges. The only thing STO is guilty of is being too demanding for some people's systems. For PC support outside of work, I charge $75 per hour, minimum of 3 hours and that's very cheap but there are always people who flip out and yell, "that's WAY too much!". Sorry if my skills and experience are too demanding and costly for your wallet. That's not my fault and being taxing on system hardware is not STO's fault.
Scay's logic seems to work something like this: STO is made to run on the PC platform, and grandma's Celeron-based Emachines PC with a Geforce 6150 is PC, therefore STO must be made to run on grandma's computer. It's a classic undistributed middle fallacy.
Of course, that's hardly the only fault in the logic he's displayed, but sufficing to say that Cryptic does not and is not required to write STO to work on any and all computers. STO is likely more demanding then it should be under cetain circumstances, and Cryptic should and probably will improve that in order to expand the array of hardware that the game can be run on, but as STO does nothing but execute logical instructions that do not directly modify hardware, it is still doing nothing outside the boundaries of what a proper computer should be able to handle. With this in mind, if STO damages your hardware, or run it outside of safe tolerances, Cryptic is not responsible.
It can harm a standard system that people get because they don't want to spend enough money to get a solid system and want to stretch it for all it's worth and still expect a 400 dollar machine to perform like a 3000 dollar machine.
Sorry to interrupt the mind numbing bickering but does anyone know if turning vsync on is doing the same thing as the line you put in the advanced settings /perFrameSleep 10 ?
Thanks, and now back to the show. Coming up next is Dwain the father of LaTisha's fifth baby, we have the test results......
Just throught i'd add in my own temps and specs here for others to compare.
I7-860 @ 4.4ghz Cooled by a Corsair H50 using Noctua fans in push/pull
Asus P55A Formula III mobo
8gb Corsair dominator 1600mhz ram
2 x Sapphire 5870's (Crossfire)
1 x 64gb Corsair performance II SSD ( Boot drive only)
4 x 1TB Samsung F3's (Storage)
2 x 1TB Samsung F3's ((Games)raid)
Corsair 800D case all stock fans changed for noctua fans (60cfm @ 21db)
Cpu at 24 hours of prime 95 @ 64c
Gpu's using Ati tool Fur test as well as running 2 instances of 3dmark vantage with rthdbrl.exe running in the back ground, fans set to auto. Max temp recorded 75c
Ram does not go bast 40c
Ambient temp in the case is 28c
Also, i can see scay's points. But he seems like he does not know how to word himself properly. Yes you can get software to kill hdds, yes you can get software to run all of your components at 100% all of the time. But how much of a temp increase do you think having your optical drive running at 100% will do? My guess 0.5c at max. Having all hardware running at 100% is not a good indication of what the game will do for you, as at obvious points not all of your system resources will be used,. If you have a crappy little wallmart/emachines pc which you have decided to upgrade yourself with some badass hardware you more then likely didn't upgrade the case. The stock cooling on them is not going to provide adequate airflow over the components.
Turning Vsync on is more like doing /maxFPS 60 (if your monitor has a 60hz refresh rate). A dev posted elsewhere that /perframesleep isn't the same as /maxFPS. (or vsync).
My guess is the perframe sleep adds wait cycles to each frame, letting it cool off. vsync and maxfps try to force the game into a more regular refresh rate, which may add a lot of waits if it's not busy, or none if it's in a busy area.
My guess would be the /perframesleep would help cool the card in more general circumstances, but might slow the game more. But Im not a dev, so can't be sure.
However, swapping my new ATI 4890 out for older, much bigger two nVidia 8800 GTXs solved my overheating problems (with bigger, more heat producing, more air blocking hardware?) and it runs faster. Like it or not, I think this indicates STO has some ATI unfriendly code in there, in some manner.
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then something is still put together wrong. Any properly built system should not run with temps like that. You don't need water cooling and all that. Just proper airflow and proper fans. Any machine built should be built to be able to handle the GPUs and CPUs running at 100% for any given length of time. The fans should auto speed up to compensate to keep them within health temps.
I bet if you use the nvidia software and set your GPU fan to 80% or faster the temps will come down to 50 or 60c as well as incr the speeds of your case fan(s)
Dont forget there's another and FREE solution... people can turn the game resolution down, shadows off, etc.. a lot of the bells and whistles to take the load off if they are overheating... they just don't want to
But again, an overheating system is a sign of either a poorly constructed system OR a system that hasn't been properly maintained ... oh or overlocked w/o proper cooling
Something is wrong with your rig. I have 2 GTX 295s side by side and they never go over 50-60c in the game.. and I have 4 GPUs slamming away.
Now 77c is ok for that card, but it should be that high. Do you have all the nvidia software installed and do you have it set to raise the GPU fan as temps rise?
A lot of people with nvidia and ati cards just default and assume the card will auto incr the fan and or the system bios will auto inc the cpu or case fans.. this isn't the case in a lot of systems.
You actually have to install the nvidia monitoring software and tell it to set the fan at XX % speed at XXc... you can put it just "auto" mode, but like i said, some card manufacturers won't work properly.
I'm sure ATI has similar software.
Exactly; this is the disconnect people have from reality. They come in and yell about how STO made there hardware run at 100% load, which resulted in it being damaged, and therefore STO damaged their hardware, whilst remaining blissfully ignorant of the fact that hardware is designed to run at 100% load.
Now, I think Cryptic has some coding issues to work out, and I hope that this game is a little lighter on these systems as time goes, as no game (even one beyond a computer's capacity to run) should be running components at full load like a CPU/GPU stressor would. That said, it is not Cryptic's fault that a computer cannot handle running at full load, therefore the fact that STO was the catalyst (and nothing more) for overheating hardware is not their fault, because in the end, STO is still doing nothing that a proper setup is not designed to handle.
I've hit the high system loads from STO, and have had the 1700 frame per second refresh rates on loading screens rev up my computer's fans a bit, but STO still doesn't get the CPU above about 47, nor the GPU above 65 (usually not above 60). STO is nowhere near as intensive as something like Furmark is, and even if it was, overheating wouldn't be Cryptic's fault, because a proper setup should be able to run Furmark for extended periods of time anyways. It's just software; it can't be solely responsible for hardware failure (again, short of overclocking routines that STO clearly doesn't have).
As I said in another post.. many machines won't incr the fan speeds. My last machine, a dell xps 710, had the fans (cpu/case) FIXED at 6% no matter what and the GPU at the time a 8800 GTX wouldn't auto incr either.
I had to get the nvidia tools and set up a profile to adjust my fan speeds. Now that is a bit complex, but a user can manually use the tools to just speed up the fans which is easy.. it might not be as quiet, but that's not cryptics fault. That's the fault of whomever built the machine should have put in less noisey fans
Although since then Dell has learned and now installed the nvidia tools so all new dell/alienware systems shouldn't have that issue I had a few yrs ago
He runs the game at 2560x1600 with all settings maxxed except:
all shadows off
no AA, but AF 16
depth of field off
ambienent occlusion off
all the rest of the settings are maxxed..... and he gets about 40fps in space and 25-30 fps on the ground. He could havea LOT better fps if he ran in 1920x1200 but he refuses. He likes the high rez better at the cost of fps. His choice.
now... I've never heard his computer make much noise...
Since he got STO... I've heard this high pitch whine coming from his system. It's his GPU fan. I installed the nvidia software a few yrs ago on his machine when he bought it so it will always auto adjust the GPU fans.
Absolutely STO puts a load on his GPU than I've never seen any other mmo or game he has played
BUT his system does JUST what it should, incr the fan speeds... and his GPU never runs over 55c while in STO.
So... what's STO guilty of? Putting a HEAVY load on GPUs... is that an issue. ABSOLUTELY NOT.
It's up to the USER to either turn DOWN their game setting, clean their machine, or make sure their fans are auto adjusting to the temp. To be easier they can also just manually FIX the fan speeds before launching STO
Now, if I never installed that software, he would have played STO, his card would have over heated, and crashed his system (probably not killed it). One or two overheats shouldn't kill a card. ALL modern CPU and GPUs are programmed to shut off at a certain temp (although SOME will fail before that shutdown is reached because they are faulty). Keep in mind he has an "older" system although it does have Win 7 on it. My point was, back then Dell did NOTHING for fan management. Would it have been the game's fault if his fans never sped up because I didn't install that software? NOPE. DELLS FAULT for not putting proper fan control into the system.
Keep in mind the fan controls DO NOT come with the nvidia drivers!
TO ALL NVIDIA USERS (even if you don't have an nvidia mobo)... this is the software that will at LEAST help you regulate your GPU speed. Either manually or by telling it when the card is at TRIBBLE temp make the fan speed TRIBBLE %. For those that have an nvidia mobo, it will give you control of ALL your fans:
http://www.nvidia.com/object/nvidia_system_tools_6.05.html
Processor:
AMD Athlon(tm) 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 6000+, MMX, 3DNow, ~1.0GHz
Memory:
6 GB RAM
Hard Drive:
74.4 GB
Video Card:
nVidia GeForce 9400 GT
Operating System:
Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit (Build 7100)
Motherboard:
GIGABYTE GA-M68SM-S2
I'm also still running the W7 RC (build 7100) as well as hardware that is at least 1 year old and at the time was definitely not even middle of the line.
I'm not discounting those observances. I am however curious as to whether those system's specs that have observed these issues have been recorded by Cryptic.
There have been far too many observances of systems that would seem to have met the minimum requirements yet seem to have serious performance issues.
HELL people think shows like The Net can really happen.. or what your see on the computer screen on CSI are real (when it just really a bunch of junk and 99% of it is fake).
so that being in mind, I appologize if I have been rude or called any of you names.
My goal here is to help, and I don't want to insult.
I've made a copy of this post in 3 forums as well as my prev post with a link for nvidias sofware for fan control. I'm sure some ATI user on here can post a link for ati people
But follow these steps and I 100% guarentee your card(s) will cool down, and if not there is something wrong with your card or case
1) Have fan control software installed
2) Make sure the system is cleaned out, esp the gpu. If you dont have a can of compressed air, you can do this. Take our your video card. Point the end with where the DVI cable goes in towards your face.. see the airflowslots.. take a deep breath.. put it up to your mouth and give it a big PUFF! A bunch of dust should SPEW out the fan and other areas of the card... oh.... and be careful not to spit into your card! LOL Do this a few times. Also if you notice any hair or lint in the fan or card.. gently pull it out. You can also puff on the fan.. sides of the card, etc... to get dust out of every section. NOTE: this is OLD SCHOOL.. but JUST to be safe... GROUND yourself before handling your card.. meaning.. touch your case a metal part so you have no static energy in you.
If you have compressed air use it, but BE CAREFUL. Using air wrong can cause the liquid inside to come out and damage your card
3) If you are savvy enough, set the controls to 10% fan speed if the card is under 40c, 50% if the card is at 50C and 100% if the card is at 80c. Now these aren't really fixed. The software has a graft. Meaning... below 40 it would stay at 10%... as it approached 50c.. it would go from 10-50%. Provably 4-5% per degree. I say 100% at 80c because anytyhing over 80 is HOT. Now if at 100% speed your GPU is STILL over 80c in game AND you have cleaned it, make sure u have good airflow and your case fan speeds are higher. You can do this in this software too.. IF you have an nvidia mobo.... you can tell it if the GPU is at TRIBBLE temp set the case fans to XXXX %. LASTLY, take of the side of your computer and put a fan next to it and blow air into it.. if that fixes it, then you KNOW your computer has a case airflow design fault. Dell XPS 710s have this issue and the MCP chip can get over 100C and burn up if the sys fans aren't at at least 50%
If the card is STILL overheating.. it is faulty.
4) You can also turn the game options down to reduce the load. Using the FPS limit on the game really doesn't take the load of your GPU if it still has to draaw shadows and other HDR and high end effects. Those all need to go.
5) Lastly - unless a machine is H2O cooled, computers have MAJOR issues with air cooling in rooms over 80F. I doubt this is an issue as it's winter where most people are playing LOL. But your computer should always be in a room under 75F if possible. Remember air cools 23X SLOWER than water can.
In closing, about all Cryptic could do is tell people "This is a VERY GPU intensive game. Please make sure you have a properly cleaned system with proper cooling software installed and you are not overclocking the game before running STO"
Now IMO they shouldn't need to do that, but on second thought, there's many people out there who don't know much about computers and really think things that can't happen, and will believe the most absurd things because they don't know otherwise.
I hope people find this post helpful.
PS here is the link for Nvidia fan control and system fan control software: http://www.nvidia.com/object/nvidia_system_tools_6.05.html
I've said in many posts what people can do to solve their over heat issues and if those steps are followed and do not work, you have a flawed gpu, flawed cooling software, improper cooling somplace.
Yes your rig might work for every other game out there, but not for STO, and again that is NOT sto's fault.
I'll state one last time how to solve overheat in a nutshell
1) Clean out your gpu and all the system fans and heat syncs
2) make sure your fans incr in speed as the temps incr. If your card is at 80-90c it's fan had better be at 100%, if it's not - something is wrong
3) TURN DOWN THE FRICKIN GAME OPTIONS! (I've listed many times which ones are the worst gpu load offenders)
4) Limiting the game's fps to 30 CAN help in SOME situations, but it's not going to take that much of load off
If you have done ALL of the above then something is wrong with your system and it is not capable of playing this game, and you either need to fix it, or not play, end of story. They WILL NOT make the game look "less pretty" because 0.005% of the people usiung the game have heat issues.
Like I said this is my last post. I've tried to help everyone. If you can't understand, or won't listen, then it's your problem. Enjoy not playing the game in that case, because cryptic isn't going to change anything. This is YOUR responsibility to solve.
A lot of the 8800's had cooling issues. You should be fine with them if you make sure to micromanage your GPU fans. I'm not a big Radeon fan but as I understand it the 4890 should be fine, however, from what I've seen on the boards it appears that the catalyst drivers may be having a harder time with STO than the Nvidia drivers. Everyone has a unique story so it's difficult for me to pinpoint something I haven't tested or experienced first hand.
I think you're fine with what you have unless you start to experience driver related issues. Then you could give the SLI 8800's a shot but be very mindful of the GPU fans and force them to 100% duty cycle before running STO.
Yup, 80 C on a mid-level card is fine. As for your power supply, you'll have to give us your system specs in order to give you some direction.
QFT.
So these people couldn't afford to buy a solid gaming card. No problem. Yet I've seen so many run cards like a 9400 and 3350 on something ridiculous like 8x AA and all post processing effects enabled. That's a failing to understand computer gaming. :rolleyes:
Yup, I hear you. Sometimes I lose patience too, especially when the same issues are brought up time and time again by new posters to a thread who haven't spent 5 minutes to look through the last few pages to see if their problem was addressed.
http://products.amd.com/en-us/DesktopCPUDetail.aspx?id=33&f1=AMD+Athlon%E2%84%A2+X2&f2=6400%2b&f3=3200&f4=1024&f5=AM2&f6=F3&f7=90nm+SOI&f8=125+W&f9=2000&f10=False&f11=True&f12=False
I have software here on my comp that will destroy a harddrive when used long enough (speaking hours) and you can easily write software to kill a whole computer if you are into those kind of things. Hell, I still have software somewhere I wrote on a C64 ages ago that will destroy a floppy drive.
Destroying a graphics board that has just the standard cooling shouldn't prove to be a real challenge for a dedicated programmer. Even if the manufacturers say it, graphics cards are NOT made for running at 100% for like 10 hours at a time for days. At some point in time they will die.
Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow.... but making a card produce 100 FPS (which are totally useless cause you cant see them anyway) will damage the lifetime of your graphics card. And if you don't have a perfect setup it may die fast.
Though, the ATI did anti-alias a lot better.
It's basicly all graphics cards. From what I can see, STO is maxing out the graphics card as much as it can without restricting itself to sensible computations.
Said differently... STO is acting dumb and will give your graphics card totally useless computation to do like increasing framerate way above 60 FPS, thus increasing heat stress on your card and on your whole system.
If your computer is perfectly cooled, it may just decrease the lifetime of your components. If its not, they may die.
This computer runs Crysis maxed out with no problems.
For as many resources as Star Trek online is using, I should be getting better graphics. Space looks like "Microsoft Freelancer" graphics and ground environments look absolutely terrible. Like "Command and Conquer Renegade" era. And the enemy AI is dumb like Wolfenstein 3D from 1992. The characters look like something out of Activeworlds/Alphaworld.
Freelancer came out in 2003 and Renegade came out in 2002.
For the resources that it is using, I'd expect a bit more out of the graphics.
That being said though. I've played other MMOs at their launch and things should improve. So long as people keep paying for the product.
I'll still be there playing, because this game still has a lot of potential and I'd like to support it for a while. However, if they don't improve things given a reasonable amount of time, then I will leave this game behind from something better.
Yeah, these graphics should not be eating the amount of resources they do.
First off, your analogy is completely worthless. Floppy drives are mechanical objects with moving parts, as are hard drives, which means that even if you did have software that could "destroy a hard drive within hours" (which I doubt), it still has no bearing on this discussion.
Processors are absolutely designed to run at full load for extended periods of time. What the hell did you think "Prime95/Furmark stable" meant? Many good builders, and all competent overclockers will run these programs for hours before considering a machine stable. On my machine, neither the GPU nor CPU reach unsafe temperatures under full load, topping out at 75C and 48C respectively (though the GPU usually doesn't pass 60C), and running them for hours, days, or even weeks would be no issue. Indeed, both are run intensively for hours a day as it is. Neither have aftermarket cooling, both are overclocked, and both do what you claim hardware can't do. So much for that theory.
Your examples of what would "damage" a card also have relatively little to do with reality. Having a card produce a mere 100fps in a 3d application is hardly a damaging activity. Again, my cards do it for hours a day, and before you make comments on the life of my hardware, my Radeon X850PRO from 2004 is still running without a hitch (now in a hand-me-down machine), and it's by far the worst cooled component I've ever owned due to its single-slot cooler.
You can easily google up software to kill a harddrive.
Anyway, although a CPU and a GPU may be able to run 100% for some time, I can make ALL your computer components run at 100% all the time. That includes network, GPUs, all cores, harddrives, possibly CDROMS, everything. Just running your GPU and CPU at 100% will not overheat a working system, but if you increase the heat further by CDROM and HDDs it may. Maybe not on your computer if you built it in a fridge but certainly on a high percentage of computer systems sold.
Computers are just not made for running the entire system at full speed, and there is not a single software to test it, because its friggin stupid to do it, it will damage your computer over time.
I didnt say 100 FPS will damage your card, I said 100 FPS is an absolutely useless framerate that should never be produced. STO will produce FPS in the 1000th which may damage a weaker system though.
The operative words in that whole paragraph are "weaker system". STO will do nothing that can damage a properly fabricated, constructed and maintained system that runs at the proper specifications. Yes, software can damage hardware if it is designed to; I can damage hardware just by going into my BIOS (which is software, albeit rudimentary software), and maxing out my VCORE and FSB frequency. You can damage a floppy drive (or at least could at one time) by having software misalign the internal components, as certain viruses for the Amiga did years ago.
We are not, however, discussing whether it is possible to intentionally produce software which can directly or indirectly damage hardware. We are discussing Star Trek Online, a piece of software which cannot harm a system unless the system already has some failing within its hardware already, be it insufficient cooling, a bad component, old components, or a number of other weaknesses in hardware.
It can harm a standard system people buy from supermarkets, discount shops or other non-geek ways to buy a computer. It doesnt matter if those computers for YOU are having weaknesses, they dont for the people that bought them.
You think its smart that STO is putting totally unneeded stress on the computers of their customers to a point that some will fail?
I dont.
I think Cryptic better fixes this asap.
Scay I'm sorry but respectfully your just plain wrong on this topic. If you want proof please take my challenge and post your question on either of the above mentioned forums (MSDN or Nvidia developers forums). If you want proof of my credentials please don't hesitate to private message me. Frankly posts like the above are financially damaging to Cryptic, Microsoft, its partners, and the graphics card manufacturers.
Proof of your superior intellect.
Obviously, in your case, not all people are created equal. Some people can't handle the mental stress of being in combat arms branches of the military for years as I did. Some people just aren't cut out for it and can't handle it.
Obviously, in your computers case, not all machines are created equal. Some machines can't handle the stress of being subjected to demanding software. Some machines just aren't cut out for it and can't handle it.
See what I did there?
Your points are completely ignorant and invalid. Your back is to the wall because logic and truth prevail. You argue that it is possible for software to damage hardware. Yes, that is true. Although, the only software that can is MALICIOUS software!!!! STO is not malicious software and if it was, they could be sued and brought up on federal charges. The only thing STO is guilty of is being too demanding for some people's systems. For PC support outside of work, I charge $75 per hour, minimum of 3 hours and that's very cheap but there are always people who flip out and yell, "that's WAY too much!". Sorry if my skills and experience are too demanding and costly for your wallet. That's not my fault and being taxing on system hardware is not STO's fault.
Your only foot to stand on is irrelevant.
Of course, that's hardly the only fault in the logic he's displayed, but sufficing to say that Cryptic does not and is not required to write STO to work on any and all computers. STO is likely more demanding then it should be under cetain circumstances, and Cryptic should and probably will improve that in order to expand the array of hardware that the game can be run on, but as STO does nothing but execute logical instructions that do not directly modify hardware, it is still doing nothing outside the boundaries of what a proper computer should be able to handle. With this in mind, if STO damages your hardware, or run it outside of safe tolerances, Cryptic is not responsible.
This would have gotten it's true point across better if you'd said....
Thanks, and now back to the show. Coming up next is Dwain the father of LaTisha's fifth baby, we have the test results......
I7-860 @ 4.4ghz Cooled by a Corsair H50 using Noctua fans in push/pull
Asus P55A Formula III mobo
8gb Corsair dominator 1600mhz ram
2 x Sapphire 5870's (Crossfire)
1 x 64gb Corsair performance II SSD ( Boot drive only)
4 x 1TB Samsung F3's (Storage)
2 x 1TB Samsung F3's ((Games)raid)
Corsair 800D case all stock fans changed for noctua fans (60cfm @ 21db)
Cpu at 24 hours of prime 95 @ 64c
Gpu's using Ati tool Fur test as well as running 2 instances of 3dmark vantage with rthdbrl.exe running in the back ground, fans set to auto. Max temp recorded 75c
Ram does not go bast 40c
Ambient temp in the case is 28c
Also, i can see scay's points. But he seems like he does not know how to word himself properly. Yes you can get software to kill hdds, yes you can get software to run all of your components at 100% all of the time. But how much of a temp increase do you think having your optical drive running at 100% will do? My guess 0.5c at max. Having all hardware running at 100% is not a good indication of what the game will do for you, as at obvious points not all of your system resources will be used,. If you have a crappy little wallmart/emachines pc which you have decided to upgrade yourself with some badass hardware you more then likely didn't upgrade the case. The stock cooling on them is not going to provide adequate airflow over the components.
My 2c.
My guess is the perframe sleep adds wait cycles to each frame, letting it cool off. vsync and maxfps try to force the game into a more regular refresh rate, which may add a lot of waits if it's not busy, or none if it's in a busy area.
My guess would be the /perframesleep would help cool the card in more general circumstances, but might slow the game more. But Im not a dev, so can't be sure.
However, swapping my new ATI 4890 out for older, much bigger two nVidia 8800 GTXs solved my overheating problems (with bigger, more heat producing, more air blocking hardware?) and it runs faster. Like it or not, I think this indicates STO has some ATI unfriendly code in there, in some manner.