So, this is another thing I was talking about. Sure, you tagged me and (I assume) Christian. The number of notifications I have on these forums is like 200 a day. And there are days where my duties don't let me have time to check the forums. So, there's two things you can do in that situation: You can assume that I am lazy, unmotivated, and that I saw your post but didn't respond; or you can think logically and empathetically, and realize that the person on the other side of the screen is a human, who's working a job and wearing at least sixteen hats.
To another point you made: if someone's being a jerk to you, don't engage, just report. The mods do their job damn well, here, and don't get nearly the credit they deserve. Let them or me take care of it.
Why not demand better working conditions? Are you getting paid for every different hat you're wearing? If you're doing 16 different jobs, then your salary should reflect that. Or you know, you could bring up to your bosses that 1 person working 16 roles is absolutely ridiculous, and frankly unfair worker treatment. And potentially illegal if you are not being fairly compensated or given adequate time off.
he posted somewhere he makes just shy of 100k/yr.
In the Bay Area? I'm impressed by how he's able to live on so little there. 100k/yr near Silicon Valley (not in the Valley, just near) is like 50k/yr around here, or 20k/yr in, say, Omaha. Prices there are ludicrous.
He also has another job to make ends meet and maybe another I do not know about.
It's all relative to the cost of living, which for most people rent or mortgage, often eats up a large percentage of one's earnings. I'd argue it's larger than it should be for the vast majority on planet Earth, yet we do not live in the future based on Star Trek, though we'd all gladly want to! As @jonsills said, is an expensive place to live.
So let's be appreciative for his efforts, as he tries to help! Still let's try and get back on topic, which he wanted us to talk about.
♫♪♫♪♪
For example, when I disagree with someone I simply say so, and focus on one example to show why. There's no reason for personal attacks, so simply state you disagree. The example lets others at least see the other side, if some aren't swayed to your thinking, others see things aren't black or white; sometimes the truth is closer to the middle.
I also only disagree with one point, then try to shift more of the conversation onto things we agree, or share more in common. As this shows we agree on some or several things, and leaves a more positive feeling before the conversation concludes; so others show more civility and respect.
"The prejudices people feel about each other disappear when they get to know each other.
– Capt. James T. Kirk
Star Trek: The Original Series, ‘Elaan of Troyius’.
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
Honestly not sure what can be done about that, seeing as how all we can do is highlight a bug, and the Bug Team still has to track it down, maybe recreate the effects, then figure out how to fix it. There really isn't much more we the players can do. And the Bug Team is not obligated to respond to EVERY bug report to say "we see it, investigating", otherwise they may never get anything done EXCEPT haunt the forums or whatever.
An automated system that will automatically notify the reporting user when a dev opens and views the ticket, and when the bug has been addressed and the ticket closed.
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
The problem I see is more along the lines of people wanting to know THEIR particular issue is being addressed. And with how some people behave on the forums, unfortunately that means "Solve MY problem and solve it NAO. Everything else can wait!"
IMO giving a response, even an automated one, is just asking for trouble because if their thing is not fixed when they want it, out come the flamethrowers and in some cases entitlement arguments. "I put X into the game, fix my problem NAO!"
Its just asking for toxicity.
And an automated system still kinda relies on someone pushing a button to send the right message, which pulls time away from actually addressing said issue, if it even IS an issue to begin with.
An automated system that will automatically notify the reporting user when a dev opens and views the ticket, and when the bug has been addressed and the ticket closed.
Why should they waste time notifying you of a bug you reported UNLESS said bug cost you real money (IE - A CStore bug)?
Bugs are not handled in the order they are reported they are handled based on two criteria:
1) How serious is the bug as relates to the majority of STO gameplay.
2) Do they have enough information to reliably attempt a fix.
It's never a first come/first serve queue. It just adds another layer of complexity to their system that they have to use staff to support, and really provides nothing of value for it in the long run.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
I am just going to be blunt. As someone that has been around since before the game launched. There has been a lot of inconsistency in how these forums have been governed and moderated over the life of the game. I think the most important thing I can say on this is... Give people time to adjust to the new rules, if anything is actually going to change.
These being the official forum for Star Trek Online. I would like to see a commitment not only from @ambassadorkael#6946, but the dev team as a whole, to post news, announcements, and look for feedback here first. The developers of this game and I will spare calling them out, have avoided the forums because they can't handle some of the opinions from the players. Just like us players, the devs need to take the good with the bad and make this community and game the best it can be.
As someone who has given Kael a little bit of a hard time by pointing out the proof reading mistakes and copying and pasting without reading in the past along with many others. I mentioned in another thread not too long ago, that I have noticed an improvement. The patch notes are dated correctly more often than not now, things posted have been greatly improved. Reading those things regularly, I greatly appreciate that. Keep up the great work, @ambassadorkael#6946!
I would like to see the return of the community polls for some things. That doesn't meant he winning thing has to ever be done, but it would be nice as a player to not only see what others wants are for the game, but to see what the devs have in mind as well. I sure would like to see that amazing Terran ESD map turned into a social zone for a new Terran character and introductory storyline. To expect a faction, I understand is asking for a lot, but something along the lines of how the TOS start to the game was done, would really be nice.
Having the Bug Report category buried under every other category doesn't help either - it should be the first one listed under News, even ahead of General Discussion (which might also cut down on bugs being reported THERE instead of where they should be).
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
An automated system that will automatically notify the reporting user when a dev opens and views the ticket, and when the bug has been addressed and the ticket closed.
Why should they waste time notifying you of a bug you reported UNLESS said bug cost you real money (IE - A CStore bug)?
Bugs are not handled in the order they are reported they are handled based on two criteria:
1) How serious is the bug as relates to the majority of STO gameplay.
2) Do they have enough information to reliably attempt a fix.
It's never a first come/first serve queue. It just adds another layer of complexity to their system that they have to use staff to support, and really provides nothing of value for it in the long run.
they dont have to waste time doing it. the system would auto generate the above mentioned actions.
no one is also saying or said anything about your two listed criteria, nor about a first come first serve.
most of us, to include myself, would like a more robust and communication driven system that keeps players in the know about tickets.
right now, the aspect of report it, they reply to post in the forums, then close it, is not customer service, nor good communications about a bug, be it system wide known, or possibly for an individual.
SOMEONE has to code the system that auto-generates these response and maintain it over its lifecycle. They also need to pay the upkeep of whatever hardware it's running one (or would need to expand their hardware base to account for it to run). That's programming time that they would see as better spent on a actual game feature or other piece of content. Nothing in IT is so plug and play that it doesn't require support in and of itself.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
there are ticketing systems in place that already do most of what was asked for. sorry to be the bearer of bad news mate.
You've never worked in IT as a programmer or in any form of support capacity have you? Again, there's no simple p[lug and play solution for something like this on the scale Cryptic would need. It would require tweaks and programming and network support from day one until the end of it's lifecycle. That takes extra time, resources and funds AWAY from something else in their company.
Welcome to the REAL business world, 'mate'.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
there are ticketing systems in place that already do most of what was asked for. sorry to be the bearer of bad news mate.
You've never worked in IT as a programmer or in any form of support capacity have you? Again, there's no simple p[lug and play solution for something like this on the scale Cryptic would need. It would require tweaks and programming and network support from day one until the end of it's lifecycle. That takes extra time, resources and funds AWAY from something else in their company.
Welcome to the REAL business world, 'mate'.
i find it funny when people automatically make false statements about people they know nothing about. but you do you mate.
edit: i never said it wouldnt take resources to maintain or tweak to the desires of the company.
they dont have to waste time doing it. the system would auto generate the above mentioned actions.
^^^
You seem to heavily imply here it would be so automatic no time would need to be taken by any Cryptic staff.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
I will continue to try and get better about monitoring these forums and answering your questions. You're right, I could be better about that. Part of that, if I'm honest, is that it's hard to get up the will to even open threads with titles like, "WHAT THE HELL, CRYPTIC?"
But - and this is very important. You can be upset and call me out about not communicating enough. Just do so constructively is all I'm asking. The rage posts serve no greater purpose.
Hi Kael,
I run a business which is highly client/personal based. I know how to work with people at their most emotional while separating my personal feelings from the business.
We are paying customers- the playerbase. I have spent thousands of dollars on this game over the decade that it's been out. Having said that I do not appreciate the condescending school teacher tone here. I am 40 years old and have been a public servant for 22 years. I don't need to be lectured about how to communicate on an online forum (I say this respectfully toward you, and I also say this on behalf of the members here.)
So.... Here's where we are at: You are trying to address a universal problem which has existed since the very first online forums. I was part of some original online forums and this kind of attitude simply can't be avoided. The best way to handle it that I have seen is to post a very clear and simple set of rules.
- No cussing at a person.
- No threats or personal attacks
- No religon, politics.
- No selling anything
-No doxing
Also be clear about how many warnings someone gets before they are banned. Just lay out the cards properly (which haven't really been done in my observation.)
~
Stuff like that.... Then all you guys and the moderators have to do is simply call technical fouls when someone goes too far.
A lot of star trek fans can tend to be what is today referred to as "neuro-atypical" (we had a way more offensive term in my school days but they literally mean the same thing) - I find when I write a heart felt sincere post I get a mix of responses. Some are constructive and thoughtful but then there are these people who have a constant sarcastic tone and do nothing but put things down. They are the same people - and they are consistently snarky. They sound a LOT like a good friend of mine who has Autism and so I just assume we get all kinds here. I try not to snip or bite back but sometimes as social interactions go- you have to slap someone down slightly so they know where your boundaries are.
These kinds of interactions should not be the business of moderators. You can put a warning to newcomers that the forums are a bit heated at times- but beyond that you need to let people be people and work things out themselves. IF you suffer some kind of psychological distress by moderating these forums then consider giving the job to somebody in the company who can separate their own self from this job.
Not everything in life can be homogenized and made victorian in it's "politeness." I said this before and I'll say it again to you and the team: IF you want an online forum (and I think this forum is absolutely crucial for the game's health) - then you have to as a professional just accept that snarky little snitty snoots are part of the job. It's part of the game.
I've been scolded here before and meanwhile I don't attack people, I don't make threats, I think the scold I received was for posting something in the wrong place. I wasn't pleased with that treatment to say the least... Especially since I am of general good cheer and good will toward everyone. I also give away really cool stuff in game to new players as a kind of "reward" and encouragement to newcomers. I frankly expect to be taken seriously and respected when I contribute to this forum.
I think the answer is to have less rules and less interference when people argue. Let them work it out. It keeps things interesting around here. There's nothing toxic about a battle of ideas. It's when name calling and threats come in to play that intervention is needed.
You may have a kind of woke "culture" in your office at Cryptic- and that's your business. But you can't enforce your company politics on an internet forum.... You have to accept that the forum is somewhat like neutral territory. Let people be- just keep them aware of the basic rules. This will be less work for you- and I believe the forums would actually grow not shrink.
On a personal note: All of us are having a hard time during this Pandemic. I don't know if you're okay but I hope you are and I enjoy your streams, I think you generally have a good sense of humor about yourself and the fans reactions to new ships.
You had me laughing out loud when you released the 32nd century toilet ship and said "Hey listen folks... Not everyone's a winner with looks in life"- I polished it a bit but you said something to that effect and it was hilarious.
I look forward to your next stream. You guys do a good job keeping this game alive and I want to support you in any way I can.
I will continue to try and get better about monitoring these forums and answering your questions. You're right, I could be better about that. Part of that, if I'm honest, is that it's hard to get up the will to even open threads with titles like, "WHAT THE HELL, CRYPTIC?"
But - and this is very important. You can be upset and call me out about not communicating enough. Just do so constructively is all I'm asking. The rage posts serve no greater purpose.
Hi Kael,
I run a business which is highly client/personal based. I know how to work with people at their most emotional while separating my personal feelings from the business.
We are paying customers- the playerbase. I have spent thousands of dollars on this game over the decade that it's been out. Having said that I do not appreciate the condescending school teacher tone here. I am 40 years old and have been a public servant for 22 years. I don't need to be lectured about how to communicate on an online forum (I say this respectfully toward you, and I also say this on behalf of the members here.)
So.... Here's where we are at: You are trying to address a universal problem which has existed since the very first online forums. I was part of some original online forums and this kind of attitude simply can't be avoided. The best way to handle it that I have seen is to post a very clear and simple set of rules.
- No cussing at a person.
- No threats or personal attacks
- No religion, politics.
- No selling anything
-No doxing
Also be clear about how many warnings someone gets before they are banned. Just lay out the cards properly (which haven't really been done in my observation.)
~
Stuff like that.... Then all you guys and the moderators have to do is simply call technical fouls when someone goes too far.
A lot of star trek fans can tend to be what is today referred to as "neuro-atypical" (we had a way more offensive term in my school days but they literally mean the same thing) - I find when I write a heart felt sincere post I get a mix of responses. Some are constructive and thoughtful but then there are these people who have a constant sarcastic tone and do nothing but put things down. They are the same people - and they are consistently snarky. They sound a LOT like a good friend of mine who has Autism and so I just assume we get all kinds here. I try not to snip or bite back but sometimes as social interactions go- you have to slap someone down slightly so they know where your boundaries are.
These kinds of interactions should not be the business of moderators. You can put a warning to newcomers that the forums are a bit heated at times- but beyond that you need to let people be people and work things out themselves. IF you suffer some kind of psychological distress by moderating these forums then consider giving the job to somebody in the company who can separate their own self from this job.
Not everything in life can be homogenized and made victorian in it's "politeness." I said this before and I'll say it again to you and the team: IF you want an online forum (and I think this forum is absolutely crucial for the game's health) - then you have to as a professional just accept that snarky little snitty snoots are part of the job. It's part of the game.
I've been scolded here before and meanwhile I don't attack people, I don't make threats, I think the scold I received was for posting something in the wrong place. I wasn't pleased with that treatment to say the least... Especially since I am of general good cheer and good will toward everyone. I also give away really cool stuff in game to new players as a kind of "reward" and encouragement to newcomers. I frankly expect to be taken seriously and respected when I contribute to this forum.
I think the answer is to have less rules and less interference when people argue. Let them work it out. It keeps things interesting around here. There's nothing toxic about a battle of ideas. It's when name calling and threats come in to play that intervention is needed.
You may have a kind of woke "culture" in your office at Cryptic- and that's your business. But you can't enforce your company politics on an internet forum.... You have to accept that the forum is somewhat like neutral territory. Let people be- just keep them aware of the basic rules. This will be less work for you- and I believe the forums would actually grow not shrink.
On a personal note: All of us are having a hard time during this Pandemic. I don't know if you're okay but I hope you are and I enjoy your streams, I think you generally have a good sense of humor about yourself and the fans reactions to new ships.
You had me laughing out loud when you released the 32nd century toilet ship and said "Hey listen folks... Not everyone's a winner with looks in life"- I polished it a bit but you said something to that effect and it was hilarious.
I look forward to your next stream. You guys do a good job keeping this game alive and I want to support you in any way I can.
I don't see any condescending school teacher tone from Ambassador Kael. I read it in the normal voice. He is not just talking to you, he is talking to the whole Star Trek Online community on these forums as well as social media. Constructive criticism is right and is helpful, destructive or un-constructive criticism is wrong and is not helpful. We already have the rules you suggested in the Galactic News Network section under the section called Community Rules and Policies which is called Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies. I have noticed that at first these forums were cordial, passionate, but usually no personal attacks against people. Lately though, from 2016 (before the pandemic) to now just as what has happened in culture and society, community members have become further polarized, ganging up on members they do not like, etc. You see it in ESD Chat as well as other places.
Also, even when you are doing business, your personal feelings are still present (even if you are trying to be objective) and let me tell you, I am not sure I would want to read a thread or letter that started with wth, name of gaming company whether Cryptic or another, myself if I was a developer. It is not right that some people are prone to overreaction, having temper tantrums especially when they are adults (even if they are not adults, they need to behave better), attacking (flaming and/or railing) Cryptic, etc. Many players forget that those who are part of Cryptic Studios are human beings just like they are and should be treated with respect and dignity even if they do not agree with certain policies or the culture perceived or otherwise at that company. With that said I do not agree with shadowbans (you did not bring this up) and believe that the moderators (as flawed as us human beings are), are doing the best they can under the circumstances and we should help them as well. Could they be better? Of course just as us community members could be better citizens and netizens not just here but those who also use social media. I am glad for the reminder because our society, culture, and world are starting to lose the ability on how to have a discussion and instead there is demonization of the other side. I raise a toast (even though I do not drink) to a civil, better, loving, passionate, and thriving STO community.
I don't see any condescending school teacher tone from Ambassador Kael. I read it in the normal voice. He is not just talking to you, he is talking to the whole Star Trek Online community on these forums as well as social media. Constructive criticism is right and is helpful, destructive or un-constructive criticism is wrong and is not helpful. We already have the rules you suggested in the Galactic News Network section under the section called Community Rules and Policies which is called Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies. I have noticed that at first these forums were cordial, passionate, but usually no personal attacks against people. Lately though, from 2016 (before the pandemic) to now just as what has happened in culture and society, community members have become further polarized, ganging up on members they do not like, etc. You see it in ESD Chat as well as other places.
Also, even when you are doing business, your personal feelings are still present (even if you are trying to be objective) and let me tell you, I am not sure I would want to read a thread or letter that started with wth, name of gaming company whether Cryptic or another, myself if I was a developer. It is not right that some people are prone to overreaction, having temper tantrums especially when they are adults (even if they are not adults, they need to behave better), attacking (flaming and/or railing) Cryptic, etc. Many players forget that those who are part of Cryptic Studios are human beings just like they are and should be treated with respect and dignity even if they do not agree with certain policies or the culture perceived or otherwise at that company. With that said I do not agree with shadowbans (you did not bring this up) and believe that the moderators (as flawed as us human beings are), are doing the best they can under the circumstances and we should help them as well. Could they be better? Of course just as us community members could be better citizens and netizens not just here but those who also use social media. I am glad for the reminder because our society, culture, and world are starting to lose the ability on how to have a discussion and instead there is demonization of the other side. I raise a toast (even though I do not drink) to a civil, better, loving, passionate, and thriving STO community. [/quote]
Well written and beautiful sentiment at the end my friend.
Yes- I agree that on the forums people forget that there are other human beings on the other end. I didn't do a good job of telling Kael that I registered that point of his- mostly for brevity's sake. I felt that it was self evident I care about human beings given the nature of my response and my credentials.
Also- Yes, I agree that we deserve a civil and loving and passionate and thriving community. People like you are awesome here.
Kael had a school teacher tone. You are being too generous :P The friggin title of this thread is "How to have a civil discussion." I am 40 years old and unlike almost everyone here I run a practice specifically about complex human emotional issue and trauma. A couple of days before I read this thread a client had a total melt down on me and I had to separate my personal feelings from my professional title. So I think the timing was perfect in a weird synchronistic spiritual universal Jungian sense...
Kael is having a hard time- that's what I got from this post. And the Pandemic has been difficult for all of us.
The only thing about your thoughtful post that I noticed was the use of the word "should". Should is a very strange word....
You can not police the internet. Once you start to police speech on ANY level then you become a publisher not an open forum.
The philosophical theories that explain how fast things degrade in to totalitarianism are complex and well established.
Your point about human beings being flawed was a good one... I believe the spirit in which you mentioned that was somewhat in defense of Kael's attitude here, as in to give the man some wiggle room we all have bad days.
But in the same post you do not afford that same dignity of "flawed humanity" to people who say things that "flame" or "stir the pot". What of their humanity????......... Think long and hard about that. Think harder than you've ever thought before.
> @reyan01 said: > It doesn't really seem like anything IS going to change.
Kael was probably just here to check the community’s temperature before the gearbox announcement in case it turned controversial.
He may come back around the anniversary event. But he wears too many hats, so it’s not his fault.
And realistically he could come here and talk more to us, but I, for one, would be equally cynical and disillusioned regardless. So it is probably better if he only interacts with sycophants.
> @reyan01 said:
> It doesn't really seem like anything IS going to change.
Kael was probably just here to check the community’s temperature before the gearbox announcement in case it turned controversial.
He may come back around the anniversary event. But he wears too many hats, so it’s not his fault.
And realistically he could come here and talk more to us, but I, for one, would be equally cynical and disillusioned regardless. So it is probably better if he only interacts with sycophants.
Make excuses all you wish - fact is he reappeared and, again, claimed he'd interact more with the forums. And beyond the 'Short news updates' thread, he hasn't. And the forums remain as generally irrelevant as they always were. Never mind - at least those who frequent these forums can rely on being the third to know about anything new occurring in the game. Assuming the news gets posted in an offical capacity at all, because that isn't a given.
And "wearing too many hats" doesn't really excuse the continued blog inaccuracies or taking two/three minutes to spellcheck something. Although at this point it would actually be more surprising if the blogs weren't presented in a cartoonishly incompetent manner.
- A little off topic, but it needs to be said.
ambassadorkael Thank you.
- I and others appreciate you. & many of us are grateful for all you've accomplished.
- It's easier to criticize, than it is to appreciate.
- I spent decades in a job were I received constant criticism. From bosses, coworkers, & belligerent customers.
- Now I'm a currier, & when I deliver something, & receive a thank you. It's bazar, & wonderful.
- So. As someone who understands how all the criticism is ultimately toxic.
- Thank you. I appreciate you. & I'm sure there are others who are grateful for your energy, your ideas, & the effort you have put in.
Finally decided to make a sig.
I see allot of them with a character, and ship.
though I'm not sure which ship to put on there...
I'll think about it. This will do for now.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Comments
He also has another job to make ends meet and maybe another I do not know about.
So let's be appreciative for his efforts, as he tries to help! Still let's try and get back on topic, which he wanted us to talk about.
♫♪♫♪♪
For example, when I disagree with someone I simply say so, and focus on one example to show why. There's no reason for personal attacks, so simply state you disagree. The example lets others at least see the other side, if some aren't swayed to your thinking, others see things aren't black or white; sometimes the truth is closer to the middle.
I also only disagree with one point, then try to shift more of the conversation onto things we agree, or share more in common. As this shows we agree on some or several things, and leaves a more positive feeling before the conversation concludes; so others show more civility and respect.
"The prejudices people feel about each other disappear when they get to know each other.
– Capt. James T. Kirk
Star Trek: The Original Series, ‘Elaan of Troyius’.
https://www.startrek.com/news/captain-kirks-wisest-quotes
╘ maybe others know of Star Trek quotes, from Characters to lead as an example?
IMO giving a response, even an automated one, is just asking for trouble because if their thing is not fixed when they want it, out come the flamethrowers and in some cases entitlement arguments. "I put X into the game, fix my problem NAO!"
Its just asking for toxicity.
And an automated system still kinda relies on someone pushing a button to send the right message, which pulls time away from actually addressing said issue, if it even IS an issue to begin with.
Why should they waste time notifying you of a bug you reported UNLESS said bug cost you real money (IE - A CStore bug)?
Bugs are not handled in the order they are reported they are handled based on two criteria:
1) How serious is the bug as relates to the majority of STO gameplay.
2) Do they have enough information to reliably attempt a fix.
It's never a first come/first serve queue. It just adds another layer of complexity to their system that they have to use staff to support, and really provides nothing of value for it in the long run.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
These being the official forum for Star Trek Online. I would like to see a commitment not only from @ambassadorkael#6946, but the dev team as a whole, to post news, announcements, and look for feedback here first. The developers of this game and I will spare calling them out, have avoided the forums because they can't handle some of the opinions from the players. Just like us players, the devs need to take the good with the bad and make this community and game the best it can be.
As someone who has given Kael a little bit of a hard time by pointing out the proof reading mistakes and copying and pasting without reading in the past along with many others. I mentioned in another thread not too long ago, that I have noticed an improvement. The patch notes are dated correctly more often than not now, things posted have been greatly improved. Reading those things regularly, I greatly appreciate that. Keep up the great work, @ambassadorkael#6946!
I would like to see the return of the community polls for some things. That doesn't meant he winning thing has to ever be done, but it would be nice as a player to not only see what others wants are for the game, but to see what the devs have in mind as well. I sure would like to see that amazing Terran ESD map turned into a social zone for a new Terran character and introductory storyline. To expect a faction, I understand is asking for a lot, but something along the lines of how the TOS start to the game was done, would really be nice.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Welcome to the REAL business world, 'mate'.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
ORLY?
^^^
You seem to heavily imply here it would be so automatic no time would need to be taken by any Cryptic staff.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Hi Kael,
I run a business which is highly client/personal based. I know how to work with people at their most emotional while separating my personal feelings from the business.
We are paying customers- the playerbase. I have spent thousands of dollars on this game over the decade that it's been out. Having said that I do not appreciate the condescending school teacher tone here. I am 40 years old and have been a public servant for 22 years. I don't need to be lectured about how to communicate on an online forum (I say this respectfully toward you, and I also say this on behalf of the members here.)
So.... Here's where we are at: You are trying to address a universal problem which has existed since the very first online forums. I was part of some original online forums and this kind of attitude simply can't be avoided. The best way to handle it that I have seen is to post a very clear and simple set of rules.
- No cussing at a person.
- No threats or personal attacks
- No religon, politics.
- No selling anything
-No doxing
Also be clear about how many warnings someone gets before they are banned. Just lay out the cards properly (which haven't really been done in my observation.)
~
Stuff like that.... Then all you guys and the moderators have to do is simply call technical fouls when someone goes too far.
A lot of star trek fans can tend to be what is today referred to as "neuro-atypical" (we had a way more offensive term in my school days but they literally mean the same thing) - I find when I write a heart felt sincere post I get a mix of responses. Some are constructive and thoughtful but then there are these people who have a constant sarcastic tone and do nothing but put things down. They are the same people - and they are consistently snarky. They sound a LOT like a good friend of mine who has Autism and so I just assume we get all kinds here. I try not to snip or bite back but sometimes as social interactions go- you have to slap someone down slightly so they know where your boundaries are.
These kinds of interactions should not be the business of moderators. You can put a warning to newcomers that the forums are a bit heated at times- but beyond that you need to let people be people and work things out themselves. IF you suffer some kind of psychological distress by moderating these forums then consider giving the job to somebody in the company who can separate their own self from this job.
Not everything in life can be homogenized and made victorian in it's "politeness." I said this before and I'll say it again to you and the team: IF you want an online forum (and I think this forum is absolutely crucial for the game's health) - then you have to as a professional just accept that snarky little snitty snoots are part of the job. It's part of the game.
I've been scolded here before and meanwhile I don't attack people, I don't make threats, I think the scold I received was for posting something in the wrong place. I wasn't pleased with that treatment to say the least... Especially since I am of general good cheer and good will toward everyone. I also give away really cool stuff in game to new players as a kind of "reward" and encouragement to newcomers. I frankly expect to be taken seriously and respected when I contribute to this forum.
I think the answer is to have less rules and less interference when people argue. Let them work it out. It keeps things interesting around here. There's nothing toxic about a battle of ideas. It's when name calling and threats come in to play that intervention is needed.
You may have a kind of woke "culture" in your office at Cryptic- and that's your business. But you can't enforce your company politics on an internet forum.... You have to accept that the forum is somewhat like neutral territory. Let people be- just keep them aware of the basic rules. This will be less work for you- and I believe the forums would actually grow not shrink.
On a personal note: All of us are having a hard time during this Pandemic. I don't know if you're okay but I hope you are and I enjoy your streams, I think you generally have a good sense of humor about yourself and the fans reactions to new ships.
You had me laughing out loud when you released the 32nd century toilet ship and said "Hey listen folks... Not everyone's a winner with looks in life"- I polished it a bit but you said something to that effect and it was hilarious.
I look forward to your next stream. You guys do a good job keeping this game alive and I want to support you in any way I can.
I don't see any condescending school teacher tone from Ambassador Kael. I read it in the normal voice. He is not just talking to you, he is talking to the whole Star Trek Online community on these forums as well as social media. Constructive criticism is right and is helpful, destructive or un-constructive criticism is wrong and is not helpful. We already have the rules you suggested in the Galactic News Network section under the section called Community Rules and Policies which is called Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies. I have noticed that at first these forums were cordial, passionate, but usually no personal attacks against people. Lately though, from 2016 (before the pandemic) to now just as what has happened in culture and society, community members have become further polarized, ganging up on members they do not like, etc. You see it in ESD Chat as well as other places.
Also, even when you are doing business, your personal feelings are still present (even if you are trying to be objective) and let me tell you, I am not sure I would want to read a thread or letter that started with wth, name of gaming company whether Cryptic or another, myself if I was a developer. It is not right that some people are prone to overreaction, having temper tantrums especially when they are adults (even if they are not adults, they need to behave better), attacking (flaming and/or railing) Cryptic, etc. Many players forget that those who are part of Cryptic Studios are human beings just like they are and should be treated with respect and dignity even if they do not agree with certain policies or the culture perceived or otherwise at that company. With that said I do not agree with shadowbans (you did not bring this up) and believe that the moderators (as flawed as us human beings are), are doing the best they can under the circumstances and we should help them as well. Could they be better? Of course just as us community members could be better citizens and netizens not just here but those who also use social media. I am glad for the reminder because our society, culture, and world are starting to lose the ability on how to have a discussion and instead there is demonization of the other side. I raise a toast (even though I do not drink) to a civil, better, loving, passionate, and thriving STO community.
I don't see any condescending school teacher tone from Ambassador Kael. I read it in the normal voice. He is not just talking to you, he is talking to the whole Star Trek Online community on these forums as well as social media. Constructive criticism is right and is helpful, destructive or un-constructive criticism is wrong and is not helpful. We already have the rules you suggested in the Galactic News Network section under the section called Community Rules and Policies which is called Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies. I have noticed that at first these forums were cordial, passionate, but usually no personal attacks against people. Lately though, from 2016 (before the pandemic) to now just as what has happened in culture and society, community members have become further polarized, ganging up on members they do not like, etc. You see it in ESD Chat as well as other places.
Also, even when you are doing business, your personal feelings are still present (even if you are trying to be objective) and let me tell you, I am not sure I would want to read a thread or letter that started with wth, name of gaming company whether Cryptic or another, myself if I was a developer. It is not right that some people are prone to overreaction, having temper tantrums especially when they are adults (even if they are not adults, they need to behave better), attacking (flaming and/or railing) Cryptic, etc. Many players forget that those who are part of Cryptic Studios are human beings just like they are and should be treated with respect and dignity even if they do not agree with certain policies or the culture perceived or otherwise at that company. With that said I do not agree with shadowbans (you did not bring this up) and believe that the moderators (as flawed as us human beings are), are doing the best they can under the circumstances and we should help them as well. Could they be better? Of course just as us community members could be better citizens and netizens not just here but those who also use social media. I am glad for the reminder because our society, culture, and world are starting to lose the ability on how to have a discussion and instead there is demonization of the other side. I raise a toast (even though I do not drink) to a civil, better, loving, passionate, and thriving STO community.
Well written and beautiful sentiment at the end my friend.
Yes- I agree that on the forums people forget that there are other human beings on the other end. I didn't do a good job of telling Kael that I registered that point of his- mostly for brevity's sake. I felt that it was self evident I care about human beings given the nature of my response and my credentials.
Also- Yes, I agree that we deserve a civil and loving and passionate and thriving community. People like you are awesome here.
Kael had a school teacher tone. You are being too generous :P The friggin title of this thread is "How to have a civil discussion." I am 40 years old and unlike almost everyone here I run a practice specifically about complex human emotional issue and trauma. A couple of days before I read this thread a client had a total melt down on me and I had to separate my personal feelings from my professional title. So I think the timing was perfect in a weird synchronistic spiritual universal Jungian sense...
Kael is having a hard time- that's what I got from this post. And the Pandemic has been difficult for all of us.
The only thing about your thoughtful post that I noticed was the use of the word "should". Should is a very strange word....
You can not police the internet. Once you start to police speech on ANY level then you become a publisher not an open forum.
The philosophical theories that explain how fast things degrade in to totalitarianism are complex and well established.
Your point about human beings being flawed was a good one... I believe the spirit in which you mentioned that was somewhat in defense of Kael's attitude here, as in to give the man some wiggle room we all have bad days.
But in the same post you do not afford that same dignity of "flawed humanity" to people who say things that "flame" or "stir the pot". What of their humanity????......... Think long and hard about that. Think harder than you've ever thought before.
> It doesn't really seem like anything IS going to change.
Kael was probably just here to check the community’s temperature before the gearbox announcement in case it turned controversial.
He may come back around the anniversary event. But he wears too many hats, so it’s not his fault.
And realistically he could come here and talk more to us, but I, for one, would be equally cynical and disillusioned regardless. So it is probably better if he only interacts with sycophants.
Old habits are hard to break.
ambassadorkael Thank you.
- I and others appreciate you. & many of us are grateful for all you've accomplished.
- It's easier to criticize, than it is to appreciate.
- I spent decades in a job were I received constant criticism. From bosses, coworkers, & belligerent customers.
- Now I'm a currier, & when I deliver something, & receive a thank you. It's bazar, & wonderful.
- So. As someone who understands how all the criticism is ultimately toxic.
- Thank you. I appreciate you. & I'm sure there are others who are grateful for your energy, your ideas, & the effort you have put in.
I see allot of them with a character, and ship.
though I'm not sure which ship to put on there...
I'll think about it. This will do for now.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]