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A Reminder on How to Have a Discussion

ambassadorkael#6946 ambassadorkael Member, Administrator Posts: 2,515 Community Manager
Hey folks, Kael here. I wanted to chat with everyone, especially as we continue to move into this new era of Trek content, and remind you all that everyone on this forum is a human being that you are interacting with. We've had a lot of passionate discussions over the past few years, and a lot of moderator actions and warnings having to be handed out that shouldn't have been necessary. So let's talk a little bit about how we should all be behaving on this forum (and online in general, really.).

When you're in a conversation online, it is very easy to forget the humanity of the participants. The other person is just an image and a made up name, so it's very easy to boil them down into just the things you don't like. (This is also true of folks you can't interact with normally, like the creatives of Star Trek or the developers of Star Trek Online.) The best approach is to imagine your conversation happening in the real world. Read what you've just typed, out loud, to yourself or to a friend if you need. Imagine yourself in the other person's shoes. If you find that the statement has made you mad, or upset, it's probably best to rephrase.

"I feel" statements are really important, here. We have a tendency, especially in our wonderful nerd community, to jump to all or nothing, blanket statements that, while they may describe how we feel, don't contribute anything to an actual discussion except get an emotional response out of other users. For example: "[Star Trek Show] is hot trash," is a declarative, universal statement that does nothing but inspire anger in folks who DO like that show. "I don't like, [Star Trek Show] because [reasons]," is a discussion, and one that can be had, civilly.

I'm a firm believer in the "remove the problem," method of Community Management. As we move forward, folks who can't contribute civilly will be asked to not contribute at all. Whether this means warnings or bans will depend on the situation, but there is a lovely community here on the forums, and I'm sure you are as sick as I am of having it drowned out in wars over things that are, ultimately, insignificant.

Cryptic Studios, the STO development team, and the creatives behind Star Trek have and will do things that make you upset. As fans, we dedicate a lot of our lives to these properties and games, and it's reasonable to feel upset, disappointed, or even angry when something happens that you don't agree with. I'm not saying that any criticism is frowned upon. To repeat that in bold: I'm not saying any negativity will be frowned upon. But we have to be able to critique constructively, using statements that explain how we feel, instead of responding in a way that will only make others upset. I know you all can do it.

Thanks!
Post edited by ambassadorkael#6946 on
«134

Comments

  • westmetalswestmetals Member Posts: 8,401 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    I feel that part of this needs to be a commitment to communicate. I cannot tell you how many times I feel that questions have gone completely unanswered or unaddressed for unacceptably long periods of time, or been caused by faulty communication.

    For example, the separation of armor and EV suit slots, which caused those players who had previously used EV suits as their primary to be forced into the following choice:

    - continue to use the EV suit and suffer through the lack of costume control (no "disable visuals" option) AND the fact that it also forces BOFFs into theirs which they may not be equipped for (negating their existing armor)
    - replace the EV suit with a regular armor (possibly at a steep cost)
    - wait for a change

    And then those of us who asked if a change was planned, or if the new EV suit slot was working as intended.... were never answered for over a month.
  • questeriusquesterius Member Posts: 7,823 Arc User
    I am going to read this again tomorrow to make sure that whatever i just read is justifying the anger i feel about the tone used.
    This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 4,646 Arc User
    @ambassadorkael#6946 You are absolutely on point about what you say. The lack of 'constructive' argument is evident from a few, and the way some treat moderators is abysmal. A poster was complaining about a moderator 'getting the last word' before closing their post the other day. If the moderator closed a post without giving a reason, they'd complain about that to! Accusations of 'favouritism' aside, I think the moderators have always done a decent job with this tough crowd.

    However, I will point out that communications on this official forum are nearly always behind that of Twitter, Reddit and even Facebook. This forum should be the first port of call for any and all posts. Not all of us want to be checking 3 other platforms for our information because Twitter and Reddit are especially superflouous to requirements for us, given the lack of control of their own anti-troll and unaccountibility methods. What maybe 'easier' for one, isn't for others.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • ambassadorkael#6946 ambassadorkael Member, Administrator Posts: 2,515 Community Manager
    Hey folks!

    I will continue to try and get better about monitoring these forums and answering your questions. You're right, I could be better about that. Part of that, if I'm honest, is that it's hard to get up the will to even open threads with titles like, "WHAT THE HELL, CRYPTIC?" :)

    But - and this is very important. You can be upset and call me out about not communicating enough. Just do so constructively is all I'm asking. The rage posts serve no greater purpose.
  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 4,142 Arc User
    Hey folks!

    I will continue to try and get better about monitoring these forums and answering your questions. You're right, I could be better about that. Part of that, if I'm honest, is that it's hard to get up the will to even open threads with titles like, "WHAT THE HELL, CRYPTIC?" :)

    But - and this is very important. You can be upset and call me out about not communicating enough. Just do so constructively is all I'm asking. The rage posts serve no greater purpose.

    without casting myself into a blackhole for this, but with some due respect, you have said this before.

    no one likes to read bad feedback, but as a CM, thats your job. we get that this is fun for you and dont want to see the negative replies from other fans/gamers, but you cant make changes if you dont read anything or are never a part of the conversation.

    removing yourself completely from these forums, using other media formats to post details and other tidbits we all would enjoy getting shows disrespect to the players that only use the forums for such things. so understand that lack of communication can also be considered silent rage, and that helps no one.

    you need to be a part of this community, not just in name sake and title, but in reality.

    and in regards to the last sentence in the post above...

    plenty of people made notice of your lack of effort, being involved, communications, miscommunication, using other media formats instead of posting here, and so on. and what we got was a new rule that appeared to mock those here for voicing concerns about your lackluster and often incorrect posts, as well as not even being here, when compared to some previous CMs.

    you hit us with a stick when we were not incorrect, but because you took it personally and got backside hurt. (less the actual physical violence threat projected mind you, that most of us agree was not warranted)

    be that leader mate. get in there with the rest of us. talk with us. play the game with us. take our feedback, good and bad. step up and tell is things we would like to know. but in a turnabout, also do this with the staff. take our concerns to them, but give us feedback about it. tell them to get into the game and join us too. and i have to say it, fix the bugs that have been around for years already.

    anyway...lets see if this pans out and you make good on this effort. im all for it mate, but its on you, not us.

    peace.
  • ambassadorkael#6946 ambassadorkael Member, Administrator Posts: 2,515 Community Manager
    I'm gonna try and have a discussion here with you, Chive, but one of the things I'm running into is that folks have a tendency to project all kinds of things on me, as you mentioned before. While intent is not as important as impact, there does need to be a little bit of an effort both ways, here.

    So let's talk about that "new rule," which was actually me clarifying an old rule. There are some folks that seem to think I crossed the line by saying out right that wishing a dev would be fired is against the rules. I've heard a lot of talk about censorship and a lot more about how I must be thin skinned and self absorbed because that no rule is entirely about me.

    That rule was actually inspired by the person on Reddit who said one of my coworkers should be fired, in the same post where they implied said developer should be shot out an airlock. And saying, "this person should be fired," shows a complete lack of what I was trying to talk about in the OP of this thread - understanding that the people you're talking about are human beings. "I wish this person would lose their job," also means, "I wish this person would suddenly have to struggle to pay rent and bills. I wish this person would lose the ability to take care of their family. I wish this person would have to perhaps move and leave the things they love behind." Now, some people will read what I just wrote and say, "Yes, we should be able to say that, because we were disappointed in a decision that was made about a Star Trek video game."

    The culture of "the customer is always right," has lead to a lot of people who believe that what they want is more important than another person's humanity. You see it every day as people berate staff members at restaurants and stores over things that are, ultimately, trivial. You see it happen on these forums, and on Twitter, and on Reddit, and elsewhere every single day. And it *is* my job to go through all of that, and come up with actionable feedback for the team. But the thing about that is - most of the time, I already know what ya'll are going to say.

    I've been at this for five years now. It isn't a sudden surprise to me that folks are upset when a blog has a mistake, that they want me to be fired, that some of them would prefer I stop breathing. (Again, over a Star Trek video game.) I've put procedures in place to help with the issues, and they have gotten less and less over time. But I don't need to read 500 comments about how much people hate my guts when I make a mistake. I don't need to read 1000 comments about our pricing model to know some folks are unhappy with things like Mudd's. That's information I already have, and can pass on with a glance.

    When you say, "be a part of this community," I would love to. I would love to chat with folks about STO and Star Trek, to listen to constructive feedback, to meet the people who play our game. That's actually the point of this thread. Because, you see, it isn't part of anyone's job to just stand there and be abused. It's not. I don't get paid for that, it's not a part of my job description, and I certainly have never had my boss sit me down in a review and say, "You need to be insulted more." :) The more that I can see actual discussion happening, the more I, and more importantly the other developers, will be interested in participating. If all we see is folks acting like bullies, then the forum will probably continue as it is. I'll check it, look at the threads for feedback to pass on, and move on with my day without interacting.

    Again, constructive conversation is not being 100% positivity. Constructive conversation is taking the moment to understand that the other person in a conversation is also a human being. It's very easy on the internet to reduce someone down to a caricature. What I'm asking is that people take a moment to think about how they would feel if they were confronted by the same tone and language. And if it seems like it would anger you, if it seems like it only exists to provoke an emotional response, please don't post it.
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 36,963 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    Well, here's some constructive criticism - dropping a new Mudd's bundle with barely any warning is not a good way to get sales...people need to budget around things that extremely expensive, especially given it was dropped with less than 2 weeks to Christmas day and a good majority of people have probably finished or are in the process of finishing their Christmas shopping and likely don't have much money left.

    Stuff like that should be announced at least a week in advance, especially if there's a sale that only lasts so long tied to it, and doubly especially if it's close to a major holiday - you might want to let whoever is in charge of things like that know that.​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • ambassadorkael#6946 ambassadorkael Member, Administrator Posts: 2,515 Community Manager
    > @legendarylycan#5411 said:
    > Well, here's some constructive criticism - dropping a new Mudd's bundle with barely any warning is not a good way to get sales...people need to budget around things that extremely expensive, especially given it was dropped with less than 2 weeks to Christmas day and a good majority of people have probably finished or are in the process of finishing their Christmas shopping and likely don't have much money left.
    >
    > Stuff like that should be announced at least a week in advance, especially if there's a sale that only lasts so long tied to it, and doubly especially if it's close to a major holiday - you might want to let whoever is in charge of things like that know that.​​

    While this is wildly off topic to the thread, it IS an example of a well thought out, constructive post. Thank you!
  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 4,142 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    I'm gonna try and have a discussion here with you, Chive, but one of the things I'm running into is that folks have a tendency to project all kinds of things on me, as you mentioned before. While intent is not as important as impact, there does need to be a little bit of an effort both ways, here.

    So let's talk about that "new rule," which was actually me clarifying an old rule. There are some folks that seem to think I crossed the line by saying out right that wishing a dev would be fired is against the rules. I've heard a lot of talk about censorship and a lot more about how I must be thin skinned and self absorbed because that no rule is entirely about me.

    That rule was actually inspired by the person on Reddit who said one of my coworkers should be fired, in the same post where they implied said developer should be shot out an airlock. And saying, "this person should be fired," shows a complete lack of what I was trying to talk about in the OP of this thread - understanding that the people you're talking about are human beings. "I wish this person would lose their job," also means, "I wish this person would suddenly have to struggle to pay rent and bills. I wish this person would lose the ability to take care of their family. I wish this person would have to perhaps move and leave the things they love behind." Now, some people will read what I just wrote and say, "Yes, we should be able to say that, because we were disappointed in a decision that was made about a Star Trek video game."

    The culture of "the customer is always right," has lead to a lot of people who believe that what they want is more important than another person's humanity. You see it every day as people berate staff members at restaurants and stores over things that are, ultimately, trivial. You see it happen on these forums, and on Twitter, and on Reddit, and elsewhere every single day. And it *is* my job to go through all of that, and come up with actionable feedback for the team. But the thing about that is - most of the time, I already know what ya'll are going to say.

    I've been at this for five years now. It isn't a sudden surprise to me that folks are upset when a blog has a mistake, that they want me to be fired, that some of them would prefer I stop breathing. (Again, over a Star Trek video game.) I've put procedures in place to help with the issues, and they have gotten less and less over time. But I don't need to read 500 comments about how much people hate my guts when I make a mistake. I don't need to read 1000 comments about our pricing model to know some folks are unhappy with things like Mudd's. That's information I already have, and can pass on with a glance.

    When you say, "be a part of this community," I would love to. I would love to chat with folks about STO and Star Trek, to listen to constructive feedback, to meet the people who play our game. That's actually the point of this thread. Because, you see, it isn't part of anyone's job to just stand there and be abused. It's not. I don't get paid for that, it's not a part of my job description, and I certainly have never had my boss sit me down in a review and say, "You need to be insulted more." :) The more that I can see actual discussion happening, the more I, and more importantly the other developers, will be interested in participating. If all we see is folks acting like bullies, then the forum will probably continue as it is. I'll check it, look at the threads for feedback to pass on, and move on with my day without interacting.

    Again, constructive conversation is not being 100% positivity. Constructive conversation is taking the moment to understand that the other person in a conversation is also a human being. It's very easy on the internet to reduce someone down to a caricature. What I'm asking is that people take a moment to think about how they would feel if they were confronted by the same tone and language. And if it seems like it would anger you, if it seems like it only exists to provoke an emotional response, please don't post it.

    this is a good start to see where you and others are coming from then. while i dont agree with everything as stated, i can accept it as a PoV for you and your fellow STO team.

    from my time on these forums, interaction, regardless if it appears as a bully is in the house or not, one should still address it and call them out. that would also include me, if i am doing as such. shying away from chatter because you or others deem it bad, just makes it worse. this is your product, your job, your game. id be in there like no ones business if it were a reflection on my team, me, or the game i enjoy. (and honestly, many of us here are - to the point of getting moded...lol)

    people get heated for various reasons, and obviously from your post, it happens on other social media platforms, of which i am not surprised, but i have no knowledge of, since i dont have any.

    i am also with you regarding the "customer is always right," motto. it works not for me, and i agree with you on that. but you ask us to look into things as a human to human interaction. many of us do. but the aspect of a personal take about one losing the job over continual mistakes, not posting stuff in the "official" forums for those that dont have other outlets, gets somewhat personal as mentioned, since we feel we would be fired for all the incorrect date/times/items/etc, not withstanding being left out. but i will leave that at that, since we both, now, know each side. (i dont need to bring up the physical aspects, as that is not even in the realm of this topic, and addressed as needed by you)

    ive been here since the beta invite, gave feedback, just as others, etc etc...im a lifer as well. got that i think on the first offering it came out. im not a dps numbers guy, but i play for fun and enjoyment. i also want more from the game and its parent company, and at times i get heated with things that go unaddressed and left to simmer. plenty of us have, but that is because we enjoy the game and want it to stay relevant in the future.

    all that aside, is there truly any action being taken to add more staff to the STO team?

    you have a unique job mate. one many trek fans would probably want as well. have fun with it for sure, but keeps us in the loop more.

    appreciate the honesty and reply. llap.
  • westmetalswestmetals Member Posts: 8,401 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    I'm gonna try and have a discussion here with you, Chive, but one of the things I'm running into is that folks have a tendency to project all kinds of things on me, as you mentioned before. While intent is not as important as impact, there does need to be a little bit of an effort both ways, here.

    So let's talk about that "new rule," which was actually me clarifying an old rule. There are some folks that seem to think I crossed the line by saying out right that wishing a dev would be fired is against the rules. I've heard a lot of talk about censorship and a lot more about how I must be thin skinned and self absorbed because that no rule is entirely about me.

    That rule was actually inspired by the person on Reddit who said one of my coworkers should be fired, in the same post where they implied said developer should be shot out an airlock. And saying, "this person should be fired," shows a complete lack of what I was trying to talk about in the OP of this thread - understanding that the people you're talking about are human beings. "I wish this person would lose their job," also means, "I wish this person would suddenly have to struggle to pay rent and bills. I wish this person would lose the ability to take care of their family. I wish this person would have to perhaps move and leave the things they love behind." Now, some people will read what I just wrote and say, "Yes, we should be able to say that, because we were disappointed in a decision that was made about a Star Trek video game."

    The culture of "the customer is always right," has lead to a lot of people who believe that what they want is more important than another person's humanity. You see it every day as people berate staff members at restaurants and stores over things that are, ultimately, trivial. You see it happen on these forums, and on Twitter, and on Reddit, and elsewhere every single day. And it *is* my job to go through all of that, and come up with actionable feedback for the team. But the thing about that is - most of the time, I already know what ya'll are going to say.

    I've been at this for five years now. It isn't a sudden surprise to me that folks are upset when a blog has a mistake, that they want me to be fired, that some of them would prefer I stop breathing. (Again, over a Star Trek video game.) I've put procedures in place to help with the issues, and they have gotten less and less over time. But I don't need to read 500 comments about how much people hate my guts when I make a mistake. I don't need to read 1000 comments about our pricing model to know some folks are unhappy with things like Mudd's. That's information I already have, and can pass on with a glance.

    When you say, "be a part of this community," I would love to. I would love to chat with folks about STO and Star Trek, to listen to constructive feedback, to meet the people who play our game. That's actually the point of this thread. Because, you see, it isn't part of anyone's job to just stand there and be abused. It's not. I don't get paid for that, it's not a part of my job description, and I certainly have never had my boss sit me down in a review and say, "You need to be insulted more." :) The more that I can see actual discussion happening, the more I, and more importantly the other developers, will be interested in participating. If all we see is folks acting like bullies, then the forum will probably continue as it is. I'll check it, look at the threads for feedback to pass on, and move on with my day without interacting.

    Again, constructive conversation is not being 100% positivity. Constructive conversation is taking the moment to understand that the other person in a conversation is also a human being. It's very easy on the internet to reduce someone down to a caricature. What I'm asking is that people take a moment to think about how they would feel if they were confronted by the same tone and language. And if it seems like it would anger you, if it seems like it only exists to provoke an emotional response, please don't post it.

    Problem with that?

    When we ARE trying to be civil and constructive, you ignore us, and other players are allowed to argue with us until the mods close the threads.

    Re: the EV suit issue I mentioned above. I deliberately tagged you in one thread about it (a thread which by the way had a straightforward, non-inflammatory title) more than once, as well as another developer who was actively responding to threads in the bug reports subforum at that time... and SILENCE. Meanwhile a thread on the same topic in general discussion, got spammed (by Chive, mainly) generally with the opinion that I was being self-entitled and/or premature to even be asking the question, and escalated to the point that the thread was closed at Chive's request because he openly told the mods he would continue to match me post for post until I shut up.

    And all I was asking for was an answer to a question, as to whether the current behavior of the EV suit slot was working as intended, or not.

    And by the way... I too work in customer relations. Your attitude may be "but it is a Star Trek video game", but it is also YOUR JOB. You are being paid to take this exactly as seriously as anyone else is expected to take their job.

    I was one of the people that was upset about the blogs... to the point of saying we may need a new CM... because the patch notes and announcement blogs were so often marred by basic errors that could have been caught by a simple proofread, that it was becoming a joke that we would know a blog was a fake, by its lack of errors. I'm talking errors like: obviously wrong dates.... not referring to the same thing by the same name consistently... those sorts of things. Not "I don't like this" sort of errors, but actual text errors. Which to me said that whoever was writing these either was not proofreading, or that someone else was supposed to be proofreading and didn't, and in either case my guess was that you were the intended proofreader.

    If I was the one (I'm not) charged with releasing official documentation on behalf of my employer, I'd make sure everything was proofread first to eliminate those kinds of obvious errors.

    I will say the blogs have been much better since that firestorm.
    Post edited by westmetals on
  • ambassadorkael#6946 ambassadorkael Member, Administrator Posts: 2,515 Community Manager
    So, this is another thing I was talking about. Sure, you tagged me and (I assume) Christian. The number of notifications I have on these forums is like 200 a day. And there are days where my duties don't let me have time to check the forums. So, there's two things you can do in that situation: You can assume that I am lazy, unmotivated, and that I saw your post but didn't respond; or you can think logically and empathetically, and realize that the person on the other side of the screen is a human, who's working a job and wearing at least sixteen hats.

    To another point you made: if someone's being a jerk to you, don't engage, just report. The mods do their job damn well, here, and don't get nearly the credit they deserve. Let them or me take care of it.
  • westmetalswestmetals Member Posts: 8,401 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    So, this is another thing I was talking about. Sure, you tagged me and (I assume) Christian. The number of notifications I have on these forums is like 200 a day. And there are days where my duties don't let me have time to check the forums. So, there's two things you can do in that situation: You can assume that I am lazy, unmotivated, and that I saw your post but didn't respond; or you can think logically and empathetically, and realize that the person on the other side of the screen is a human, who's working a job and wearing at least sixteen hats.

    To another point you made: if someone's being a jerk to you, don't engage, just report. The mods do their job damn well, here, and don't get nearly the credit they deserve. Let them or me take care of it.

    I'm talking about a civil thread, that has been open for over a month, in the same (bug report) subforum as other threads that were answered during that time, that apparently completely escaped your notice until I mentioned it here.

    So if I am asking a question, and someone berates me for asking the question, I am not allowed to ask it again until it is actually answered?

    Because that's what I was trying to do while getting shouted down. Those mods you are praising? One of them got themselves weaponized against me asking a simple "is this a bug or not" question about a new game mechanic, because another player decided to firestorm the thread until it got closed because they didn't think I should be asking the question.

    (And that question has still not been addressed.)

    So tell me... if tagging you, etc., is not enough to get your attention - allowing for more than sufficient response time, I'm not talking hours here, I'm talking several weeks - what is, that is still considered acceptable and civil?

    Or even better...

    If we CAN'T ask a simple question like an "is this a bug or not" question about a new game mechanic, in a civilized manner, and expect a response in a reasonable period of time.... then why do the official forums even exist?



    Ironically, it appears that a thread entitled "A REMINDER ON HOW TO HAVE A DISCUSSION" is actually a lesson on the fact that we cannot have a discussion. Because our CM takes any reply at all as a personal attack against his job performance.

    Yes, that's frustration you're hearing. Think about that. There's a significant chunk of veteran players out here whose primary response to our CM is frustration.

    Post edited by westmetals on
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 15,536 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    I've been thinking about this thread a fair bit since it was posted.

    Firstly, @leemwatson summarised this point nicely:
    leemwatson wrote: »
    However, I will point out that communications on this official forum are nearly always behind that of Twitter, Reddit and even Facebook. This forum should be the first port of call for any and all posts. Not all of us want to be checking 3 other platforms for our information because Twitter and Reddit are especially superfluous to requirements for us, given the lack of control of their own anti-troll and unaccountability methods. What maybe 'easier' for one, isn't for others.

    This has been a particular point of contention in recent years. Whilst there is no argument against the widespread use of those platforms, the assumption that everyone uses them is just that - an assumption. I far prefer the forum to any of those platforms and the fact that I've been a regular here since late 2011 should speak for itself. Discussion on social media always, to me, feels too throwaway and temporary; feedback is usually a one-line comment submitted by someone who wishes to express an opinion rather than have an actual discussion.

    Furthermore, it is particularly disappointing when a news blog appears, since 99% of the time these appear via a link from Twitter/FB/Reddit, and have this at the foot of the page:
    XHDDXVI.png
    Sadly, if one were to click the link they'd find that there is no official forum post pertaining to that news item and the link simply takes them to the STO forum homepage.
    I'll concede that this is somewhat offset by the fact that, more often than not, a player will start a thread pertaining to the item revealed in the blog but I still feel that the link at the foot of the page should link to something relevant to what prompted the person reading it to be on that page in the first place.

    I also want to add that I feel that some of the ill-feeling here (which I'll note does NOT excuse player toxicity) is possibly due to the fact that all too often it hasn't felt as if anyone has been listening.
    Hopefully that'll change - but that is very much a case of 'watch this space' at this point.


  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 4,142 Arc User
    westmetals wrote: »
    Re: the EV suit issue I mentioned above. I deliberately tagged you in one thread about it (a thread which by the way had a straightforward, non-inflammatory title) more than once, as well as another developer who was actively responding to threads in the bug reports subforum at that time... and SILENCE. Meanwhile a thread on the same topic in general discussion, got spammed (by Chive, mainly) generally with the opinion that I was being self-entitled and/or premature to even be asking the question, and escalated to the point that the thread was closed at Chive's request because he openly told the mods he would continue to match me post for post until I shut up.

    this is discourteous mate. per the topic of this thread, you could simply have pointed out that one got closed, (for reasons left behind), and one is still open, but not yet replied to. we didnt see eye to eye and it got to the point it needed to be closed, so i asked it to be. i was, and am not harboring ill will or feelings towards you for any reason, but this was discourteous mate.
    or you can think logically and empathetically, and realize that the person on the other side of the screen is a human, who's working a job and wearing at least sixteen hats.

    this is also a point of concern. we have heard you and others say this many times. its not like you all there are the only ones to ever wear many hats in a given time frame. if you wear that many, then use your calendar and divide your hat duties accordingly, to include time here to be a part of this community.

    and with that, to west's point...wouldnt like a 72 hour window be an acceptable time frame to get a response from someone? at the very least..."got your ping, read the details, working on a reply." and then make sure you follow up within another three days with an answer. i dont think thats too much to ask. lately, and i dont recall the persons name, but in the bug section, someone has at least been replying, sometimes asking questions, but at a minimum, advises its been added to the list of bugs. while thats another topic...years old bugs...at least it shows interaction and acceptance on behalf of the team.

    peace o/
  • westmetalswestmetals Member Posts: 8,401 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    westmetals wrote: »
    Re: the EV suit issue I mentioned above. I deliberately tagged you in one thread about it (a thread which by the way had a straightforward, non-inflammatory title) more than once, as well as another developer who was actively responding to threads in the bug reports subforum at that time... and SILENCE. Meanwhile a thread on the same topic in general discussion, got spammed (by Chive, mainly) generally with the opinion that I was being self-entitled and/or premature to even be asking the question, and escalated to the point that the thread was closed at Chive's request because he openly told the mods he would continue to match me post for post until I shut up.

    this is discourteous mate. per the topic of this thread, you could simply have pointed out that one got closed, (for reasons left behind), and one is still open, but not yet replied to. we didnt see eye to eye and it got to the point it needed to be closed, so i asked it to be. i was, and am not harboring ill will or feelings towards you for any reason, but this was discourteous mate.

    What we did not see eye to eye about was, as you stated, that you felt my asking the question was improper. And what caused the thread to escalate is that you kept arguing that point. Effectively you were telling me to sit down and shut up, repeatedly, until the thread got so heated that you were able to use a mod against me to force me to.

    And now you have the gall to call me discourteous?

    And the entire time, it was, and still is, in the power of our CM and devs, to simply answer the question I was asking.
  • ambassadorkael#6946 ambassadorkael Member, Administrator Posts: 2,515 Community Manager
    Folks, we're getting to a point here. Believe me, your point about wanting me to be here more often has been made. Please understand, I cannot and will not see or respond to every ping I get on here. To expect that is, I'm sorry, as unreasonable as expecting that I respond to every tweet or FB message STO gets. I'll do my best to respond to key issues or things that are on the front page of the forum. That, I can promise, but the demand that I be personally attentive to every single question or demand on here is not going to happen. I have more job duties than this forum, and when the job day ends I'm going to choose spending time with my family over you folks.

    Now this thread was about having a civil discussion, and we're starting to descend into accusations and petty bickering amongst yourselves. I'll ask this one time to stop with the assumptions against me and against your fellow users, or otherwise we will have to shut this thing down.

    Remember the point of this thread. Treat people as human beings.
  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 4,142 Arc User
    westmetals wrote: »
    westmetals wrote: »
    Re: the EV suit issue I mentioned above. I deliberately tagged you in one thread about it (a thread which by the way had a straightforward, non-inflammatory title) more than once, as well as another developer who was actively responding to threads in the bug reports subforum at that time... and SILENCE. Meanwhile a thread on the same topic in general discussion, got spammed (by Chive, mainly) generally with the opinion that I was being self-entitled and/or premature to even be asking the question, and escalated to the point that the thread was closed at Chive's request because he openly told the mods he would continue to match me post for post until I shut up.

    this is discourteous mate. per the topic of this thread, you could simply have pointed out that one got closed, (for reasons left behind), and one is still open, but not yet replied to. we didnt see eye to eye and it got to the point it needed to be closed, so i asked it to be. i was, and am not harboring ill will or feelings towards you for any reason, but this was discourteous mate.

    What we did not see eye to eye about was, as you stated, that you felt my asking the question was improper. And what caused the thread to escalate is that you kept arguing that point. Effectively you were telling me to sit down and shut up, repeatedly, until the thread got so heated that you were able to use a mod against me to force me to.

    And now you have the gall to call me discourteous?

    And the entire time, it was, and still is, in the power of our CM and devs, to simply answer the question I was asking.

    i shouldnt, but i am...

    you are being discourteous. your take and personal feelings regarding the thread in question do not lead to a civil conversation, of which this thread is about. your use of saying i effectively said x and x, and used a mod against you is not correct by any means. i never said those things, nor did i say anything to the mod, but that we were never going to see eye to eye, and asked it to be closed.
    he openly told the mods he would continue to match me post for post until I shut up.
    Effectively you were telling me to sit down and shut up

    never said that...

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline#/discussion/comment/13699998

    read for yourself.

    i will stop here and allow you your space to continue if you so feel the need. but i called you out for an old thread that you mentioned my name in as discourteous and i stand by that. as stated, you could have made mention of the thread and linked it for whoever, but to insinuate things i never did or said....

    honestly, i still harbor zero issues with you. even with this. but i get to say my part if you invoke my handle. :)
  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 4,142 Arc User
    Folks, we're getting to a point here. Believe me, your point about wanting me to be here more often has been made. Please understand, I cannot and will not see or respond to every ping I get on here. To expect that is, I'm sorry, as unreasonable as expecting that I respond to every tweet or FB message STO gets. I'll do my best to respond to key issues or things that are on the front page of the forum. That, I can promise, but the demand that I be personally attentive to every single question or demand on here is not going to happen. I have more job duties than this forum, and when the job day ends I'm going to choose spending time with my family over you folks.

    Now this thread was about having a civil discussion, and we're starting to descend into accusations and petty bickering amongst yourselves. I'll ask this one time to stop with the assumptions against me and against your fellow users, or otherwise we will have to shut this thing down.

    Remember the point of this thread. Treat people as human beings.

    didnt see this til i posted a reply to west. do as you see fit.
  • westmetalswestmetals Member Posts: 8,401 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    Folks, we're getting to a point here. Believe me, your point about wanting me to be here more often has been made. Please understand, I cannot and will not see or respond to every ping I get on here. To expect that is, I'm sorry, as unreasonable as expecting that I respond to every tweet or FB message STO gets. I'll do my best to respond to key issues or things that are on the front page of the forum. That, I can promise, but the demand that I be personally attentive to every single question or demand on here is not going to happen. I have more job duties than this forum, and when the job day ends I'm going to choose spending time with my family over you folks.

    Now this thread was about having a civil discussion, and we're starting to descend into accusations and petty bickering amongst yourselves. I'll ask this one time to stop with the assumptions against me and against your fellow users, or otherwise we will have to shut this thing down.

    Remember the point of this thread. Treat people as human beings.

    I understand that.

    The issue in question was a new game mechanic, which I had questions about that were not covered by the announcement blog, and strayed into the territory of wondering if the mechanic was indeed working as designed, or bugged.

    If that sort of thing is not a "key issue", what is?

    I did not expect an immediate answer... but I started the thread about it on November 5 (a couple of weeks after the mechanic went live) and the questions are still unanswered now.

    And if it is working as designed, it represented a massive nerf that was going to cost me a LOT to fix my characters from, and I wanted an answer, if possible, before any relevant sales.... which have now happened and I wound up spending and doing the fix, so.... whatever, I don't care anymore.

    Meanwhile, the other thread... I brought up the same question there, to which the reply (by Chive) was that I was being impatient in asking the question. Okay fine, he said his piece... but then he continually restated that every time the thread updated, which is what caused the escalation. Which to me is gatekeeping. He seems to have intentionally spammed the thread so that it got shut down... which accomplished exactly what his stated intent was: that I was not able to ask the question anymore.

    But I think this thread has proven that we can't have a discussion... so whatever. Close the thread, close the whole ***** forum, whatever.
  • livinlifejb90#4082 livinlifejb90 Member Posts: 218 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    So, this is another thing I was talking about. Sure, you tagged me and (I assume) Christian. The number of notifications I have on these forums is like 200 a day. And there are days where my duties don't let me have time to check the forums. So, there's two things you can do in that situation: You can assume that I am lazy, unmotivated, and that I saw your post but didn't respond; or you can think logically and empathetically, and realize that the person on the other side of the screen is a human, who's working a job and wearing at least sixteen hats.

    To another point you made: if someone's being a jerk to you, don't engage, just report. The mods do their job damn well, here, and don't get nearly the credit they deserve. Let them or me take care of it.

    Why not demand better working conditions? Are you getting paid for every different hat you're wearing? If you're doing 16 different jobs, then your salary should reflect that. Or you know, you could bring up to your bosses that 1 person working 16 roles is absolutely ridiculous, and frankly unfair worker treatment. And potentially illegal if you are not being fairly compensated or given adequate time off.​​
    gQytlm7.jpg
  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 4,142 Arc User
    So, this is another thing I was talking about. Sure, you tagged me and (I assume) Christian. The number of notifications I have on these forums is like 200 a day. And there are days where my duties don't let me have time to check the forums. So, there's two things you can do in that situation: You can assume that I am lazy, unmotivated, and that I saw your post but didn't respond; or you can think logically and empathetically, and realize that the person on the other side of the screen is a human, who's working a job and wearing at least sixteen hats.

    To another point you made: if someone's being a jerk to you, don't engage, just report. The mods do their job damn well, here, and don't get nearly the credit they deserve. Let them or me take care of it.

    Why not demand better working conditions? Are you getting paid for every different hat you're wearing? If you're doing 16 different jobs, then your salary should reflect that. Or you know, you could bring up to your bosses that 1 person working 16 roles is absolutely ridiculous, and frankly unfair worker treatment. And potentially illegal if you are not being fairly compensated or given adequate time off.​​

    he posted somewhere he makes just shy of 100k/yr.
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 15,536 Arc User
    So, this is another thing I was talking about. Sure, you tagged me and (I assume) Christian. The number of notifications I have on these forums is like 200 a day. And there are days where my duties don't let me have time to check the forums. So, there's two things you can do in that situation: You can assume that I am lazy, unmotivated, and that I saw your post but didn't respond; or you can think logically and empathetically, and realize that the person on the other side of the screen is a human, who's working a job and wearing at least sixteen hats.

    To another point you made: if someone's being a jerk to you, don't engage, just report. The mods do their job damn well, here, and don't get nearly the credit they deserve. Let them or me take care of it.

    Why not demand better working conditions? Are you getting paid for every different hat you're wearing? If you're doing 16 different jobs, then your salary should reflect that. Or you know, you could bring up to your bosses that 1 person working 16 roles is absolutely ridiculous, and frankly unfair worker treatment. And potentially illegal if you are not being fairly compensated or given adequate time off.​​

    he posted somewhere he makes just shy of 100k/yr.

  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 4,142 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    So, this is another thing I was talking about. Sure, you tagged me and (I assume) Christian. The number of notifications I have on these forums is like 200 a day. And there are days where my duties don't let me have time to check the forums. So, there's two things you can do in that situation: You can assume that I am lazy, unmotivated, and that I saw your post but didn't respond; or you can think logically and empathetically, and realize that the person on the other side of the screen is a human, who's working a job and wearing at least sixteen hats.

    To another point you made: if someone's being a jerk to you, don't engage, just report. The mods do their job damn well, here, and don't get nearly the credit they deserve. Let them or me take care of it.

    Why not demand better working conditions? Are you getting paid for every different hat you're wearing? If you're doing 16 different jobs, then your salary should reflect that. Or you know, you could bring up to your bosses that 1 person working 16 roles is absolutely ridiculous, and frankly unfair worker treatment. And potentially illegal if you are not being fairly compensated or given adequate time off.​​

    he posted somewhere he makes just shy of 100k/yr.

    yup....saw you or someone else post this.

    i have to take back some sympathy i felt for him prior to this.

    i am curious though what his job duties are. what he does as CM and the other 16 hats worn by him. i mean, if transparency is the new thing, then maybe we can garner some insight as to what his role really is.
  • captainkoltarcaptainkoltar Member Posts: 773 Arc User
    Transparency in that post is clearly intended to help other people in his field.

    It's not intended for us to pass judgement on his salary.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 10,841 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    [Edit: Off topic, my apologies]
    Post edited by angrytarg on
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 4,142 Arc User
    Transparency in that post is clearly intended to help other people in his field.

    It's not intended for us to pass judgement on his salary.

    i didnt pass judgment, at least in my perspective, yours may be different.

    i am now asking in a truthful and respectful way, as to what his job duties and responsibilities are. if one wants to be that transparent about ones salary, why not with job description/responsibilities etc?
  • quinnftw76#3498 quinnftw76 Member Posts: 18 Arc User
    I will continue to try and get better about monitoring these forums and answering your questions. You're right, I could be better about that.

    Sorry, I am not a frequent contributor, and perhaps I'm off base here, but I thought Badd Moon Rizin was in charge of monitoring the forums. Are they not the Community Manager? Has there been a recent change?

    This isn't a TRIBBLE post. I am genuinely asking, because I don't follow all the comings and goings closely.

  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 2,655 Bug Hunter
    edited December 2021
    He is a member of the Volunteer Community Team as am I, though my role is a bit different. I have on a few occasion worked with DEV's to resolve issues. Still everyone in this thread is a person, be they a developer, or another Cryptic Employee; or just someone who enjoys Star Trek! AmbassadorKael is a Cryptic Employee, he is our Official Community Moderator! As was LaughingTrendy before him. The Volunteer team helps assist where they can, either notifying on Bugs in game, or trying to prevent someone from going too far making personal attacks.

    I think Kael's comment which someone quoted above, "Now this thread was about having a civil discussion, and we're starting to descend into accusations and petty bickering amongst yourselves. I'll ask this one time to stop with the assumptions against me and against your fellow users, or otherwise we will have to shut this thing down."

    Personally I was a little disappointed, as conversation shifted to another post he tweeted! What many may not realize is that Kael only tweeted that to support another CM (female) and trying to show Cryptic compensates employees in similar roles, very similar rates regardless of their sex; based on their experience. That female employee is also a newer mother, and also spoke of the high cost of child care, rent being over 2700 a month as it's near Santa Clara County California closer to the Coast. It's not likely to be as affordable as Washington State, Idaho, North Dakota or countless other examples, depending where you live.

    Please guys try and think of others before you type, or when you do say something, if it didn't come out as intended consider a subtle revision. Interpersonal Communications is a complicated matter, and we can't hear the tone so we have to perceive it based on word choices; yet also our own emotions at the time. Most on the Volunteer Team, try to focus on the issue not the individual, while also having a bit of empathy for the persons involved whom ever they are in life.



    Till the season to be Merry, so please some Kindness more often! We've all been thru a rough 2 years where ever we are, so lets all hope for innovations in Medicine, Research, Engineering, and several others that Star Trek tries to inspire with a brighter future for Humanity still ahead. o:)
    Post edited by strathkin on
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  • quinnftw76#3498 quinnftw76 Member Posts: 18 Arc User
    strathkin wrote: »
    He is a member of the Volunteer Community Team as am I, though my role is a bit different. I have on a few occasion worked with DEV's to resolve issues. Still everyone in this thread is a person, be they a developer, or another Cryptic Employee; or just someone who enjoys Star Trek! AmbassadorKael is a Cryptic Employee, he is our Official Community Moderator! As was LaughingTrendy before him. The Volunteer team helps assist where they can, either notifying on Bugs in game, or trying to prevent someone from going too far making personal attacks.

    Thank you for clarifying.

  • thunderfoot#5163 thunderfoot Member Posts: 4,353 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    I only come to the forums once a month now. And when I'm here, I lurk. Stopped commenting or interacting with the people here years ago. Why? Because these forums represent only a very small fraction of the population of the game. And most of these get so caught up in the Argument of the Week, they don't have time to do anything other than play to the crowds or wait to pounce on some unsuspecting newbie so they can score points with their buddies. I don't need the negativity. Nor does anyone else.

    "Constructive Criticisms?" Here goes:

    - Cryptic personnel ought to lose the "Rock Star" attitude. You work for a gaming company. A very small gaming company which has been passed around the industry like Last Year's Fruitcake. 'Nuff said.

    - Personalities and forum regulars around here (myself included) also ought to lose the "Rock Star" attitude.

    - Make the' "Official Forums"' OFFICIAL! Post new information about the game here FIRST!! THEN post it anywhere else you like afterwards. I find it irritating in the extreme to hunt through Twitter, Instagram, Facebook or any of another hundred or so websites to find out about the latest goings on in my favorite MMO. If this place isn't important enough to be first in line for new information, close it down. I understand advertising to attract new players. Makes good business sense. But once you get them here, doesn't it also make good business sense to give them a reason to stay longer? They'll spend more money this way.

    - Restrict Access to Closed Threads which are closed due to Moderation. Regardless of the reason they were moderated. That Guy posts something which is against the rules, the thread gets closed and then continues to get looks because it is still up. Why reward someone in this manner? Why should their ego continue to positively benefit from bad behavior?

    - Lastly, shut down all of the, "That's not real Star Trek!" B.S. I'm thoroughly sick and tired of gatekeepers masquerading as Star Trek fans. It is one of the primary reasons I seldom come here or post anything anymore. Star Trek is a big enough tent now there's room for everyone. Are there things about TNG, VOY, DS9 which I don't like? You betcha! Not going to burden another Star Trek fan with them in public. Not going to pounce on another Star Trek fan who likes them in public. Doing so is disrespectful.

    Doing so and being allowed to get away with it repeatedly is a leadership failure, Ambassadorkael. So now you're gonna act like the new sheriff in town? Any organization will always be a reflection of its leadership.

    While I'm pleased to see at long last somebody wants to clean up the place, I'm also cynical enough after being a part of this for nearly ten years to realize nothing will really change around here. Because the people who can make such a change do not have enough backbone to see the changes through.

    Going back to lurking now.
    Post edited by thunderfoot#5163 on
    Nope. It ain't Discovery. It ain't Picard. It's not SNW, either.
    It's your obsessive-compulsive belief that you are the only 'real' Star Trek fan around here.
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