I actually don't mind the design, except for the windows on the nacelle pylons. There wouldn't be spaces there for people to be doing things, just power conduits for the engines (and perhaps a jeffries tube to get access to the engines themselves).
I hadn't noticed but that sounds like a valid point.
office? mini food courts? quiet place? there can be a myriad of reasons, and to be honest, i think nommo is off the mark about the size. but thats me. (and no, im not taking an actual blueprint to voice my opinion, but if he or you can find validated reasons to dictate size that would then warrant the question as to why there are windows, then lets see it)
How about re-reading & correcting yourself. You quoted my response which was to another's post. A post I stated, "sounds like a valid point." I didn't even use the word size. Out of all the starships, & this doesn't seem to be the biggest starship ever, I'm guessing there's lots more without windows embedded in the nacelle pylons than there are.
They might not even be windows for that matter. The TOS Enterprise has what was officially called "window-like lights" in the show's internal documentation and the sets clearly show that there are no external-hull windows except in the shuttlebay catwalks. That is also supported by Kirk telling one of the female passengers that he often came down there (the catwalk) because it was the only place to look directly out into space with his own eyes. And some of those "window like lights" were on the nacelle struts.
There were various theories as to what those white glowing rectangles were, but since they had exactly the same glow as the sensor domes and the big square sensor patches on the dorsal surface of the saucer, the most likely one is that they are sensor panels too. They were probably spread out like that to avoid one hit taking out most of their sensors in a particular arc, and the shapes and arrangement were probably artistic license by the Starfleet engineers to suggest the windows that are probably on civilian ships (and on seagoing ships).
In fact, the reason they modified the shooting model to add the "window-like lights" was that people seeing the first pilot were not getting a sense of the size of the ship, and Roddenberry didn't want characters pointing it out in dialog all the time. Someone (Justman I think, but it has been a long time since I read The Making of Star Trek so I don't remember for sure) came up with the idea of the lights after seeing cruise liners at night and realizing that the viewers could use the rows to get an impression of the size of the ship that way.
Roddenberry liked the idea of the lights getting the impression across without burning dialog time, but would not budge on the original idea of the ship being windowless and submarine-like hull-wise so they never made any attempt to retrofit windows into the sets (not that it would have been practical anyway even if he had allowed it), and they officially became the unexplained "window-like lights".
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,577Community Moderator
Ok... Som and everyone arguing with Som... please just let it go. Its going nowhere.
Apples to oranges. Prior to the legendary bundles, ships were still available *on their own* and not just exclusively as part of said bundles. Now they're not. Also, the ship bundles in question were -- again, until recently -- large packs of many ships with a few extra bits added for flavor. Now they're mostly single ships with lots of additions to justify the higher-than-before price tags. There's been a notable and escalating change in marketing priorities, and not in a good way.
You are right about there being a change, wrong about the direction.
It used to be these sorts of premium ships were only lockbox, Lobi, or R&D ships. These ships would cost anywhere from $200-$250 dollars each, were single character unlocks that couldn't be reclaimed if dismissed, and only came with the ship itself.
Now we have seen them move away from that in favor of $120 Legendary packs(anywhere from 30-50% off when on sale), that come with stuff other then the ship, are acocunt wide, and(the ships at least) can be reclaimed as many times as you want.
The same is true of Mudd's Market. Mudd's took the actual already existing lockbox/lobi/R&D ships, and moved them from these RNG based, $200-$250 dollar, character based, non reclaimable, status into a cheaper, zen based, account wide, reclaimable status.
There has been a notable and escalating change in marketing priorities. One towards significantly cheaper means of getting premium ships, with more benefits for getting them at this cheaper price then getting them via the lockbox/Lobi/R&D they would have been offered previously.
This is likely why the legendary packs, and Mudd's Market, have been successful enough to keep pushing things into them. Most people are able to see they are saving quite a lot this way then going for lockbox/lobi/R&D ships directly. And why the forums have, once again, been systematically wrong about the sales on them as well. with complaints about them being not a good deal, or being too expensive, not actually translating into the actual game.
Considering red tfo's are no longer common we need higher end ships. Or some thing to make those available again one day.
Elite TFO's a long time ago were easy to get into. They were designed to be a dil farming level once you got your ship maxed before random and the extra dil boxes were added. Similarly to yellow TFO's now. Certain changes in the game made them uncommon and depopulated the ques. Having more people with higher ships could make them more common. Maybe they are reducing cost to slow float it so they are commonly played again in the long run. Possibly after future updates and content. Unless they were going to and changed the plan. I have a feeling that was the idea when borg cubes were still on the table as playable ships. Eventually they will or can be filled with a population of players once/if certain levels of content are added to the game.
> @somtaawkhar said: > These aren't things only whales can buy, they are things anyone who isn't broke can save up for over a couple months. And, as has been pointed out before, you don't need to get all, or even most, of them to begin with.
You are being disingenuous here in my opinion. I don't think the point is that someone literally makes a choice between having food on the table or a game item, and even if they were, basically saying that they would then be too poor to partake in playing this game anyway is not a good argument. Yes, you have not literally used this argument, you are debating people for sport especially in topics that easily heat up emotionally, but words have implied meaning beyond the letters.
You are right that nobody has to buy anything, but the practice of putting ships in expensive bundles or lockboxes is frustrating for those that would like to have them, but don't value them nearly as high as the company is asking. Were they microtransactions there would be less complaints.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I actually don't mind the design, except for the windows on the nacelle pylons. There wouldn't be spaces there for people to be doing things, just power conduits for the engines (and perhaps a jeffries tube to get access to the engines themselves).
I hadn't noticed but that sounds like a valid point.
office? mini food courts? quiet place? there can be a myriad of reasons, and to be honest, i think nommo is off the mark about the size. but thats me. (and no, im not taking an actual blueprint to voice my opinion, but if he or you can find validated reasons to dictate size that would then warrant the question as to why there are windows, then lets see it)
How about re-reading & correcting yourself. You quoted my response which was to another's post. A post I stated, "sounds like a valid point." I didn't even use the word size. Out of all the starships, & this doesn't seem to be the biggest starship ever, I'm guessing there's lots more without windows embedded in the nacelle pylons than there are.
They might not even be windows for that matter. The TOS Enterprise has what was officially called "window-like lights" in the show's internal documentation and the sets clearly show that there are no external-hull windows except in the shuttlebay catwalks. That is also supported by Kirk telling one of the female passengers that he often came down there (the catwalk) because it was the only place to look directly out into space with his own eyes. And some of those "window like lights" were on the nacelle struts.
There were various theories as to what those white glowing rectangles were, but since they had exactly the same glow as the sensor domes and the big square sensor patches on the dorsal surface of the saucer, the most likely one is that they are sensor panels too. They were probably spread out like that to avoid one hit taking out most of their sensors in a particular arc, and the shapes and arrangement were probably artistic license by the Starfleet engineers to suggest the windows that are probably on civilian ships (and on seagoing ships).
In fact, the reason they modified the shooting model to add the "window-like lights" was that people seeing the first pilot were not getting a sense of the size of the ship, and Roddenberry didn't want characters pointing it out in dialog all the time. Someone (Justman I think, but it has been a long time since I read The Making of Star Trek so I don't remember for sure) came up with the idea of the lights after seeing cruise liners at night and realizing that the viewers could use the rows to get an impression of the size of the ship that way.
Roddenberry liked the idea of the lights getting the impression across without burning dialog time, but would not budge on the original idea of the ship being windowless and submarine-like hull-wise so they never made any attempt to retrofit windows into the sets (not that it would have been practical anyway even if he had allowed it), and they officially became the unexplained "window-like lights".
That's some cool backstory there. Thanks phoenixc. I have yet to actually see them. I didn't notice them from the pic I saw & haven't seen it in-game yet to observe. The more I see a pic of this Parliament the saucer part reminds me of that other Millennium Falcon-esque looking Fed ship the Edison. This is a prime example of a situation where I wish we could at least look at all the ships in the Ship Customization Tailor even if we don't own them. Since there's already mechanics there with versions of the ship were able to look at but not apply if we don't own I'd think that would be possible. I'm certainly not going to gamble for it just to get a better look lol.
I actually don't mind the design, except for the windows on the nacelle pylons. There wouldn't be spaces there for people to be doing things, just power conduits for the engines (and perhaps a jeffries tube to get access to the engines themselves).
I hadn't noticed but that sounds like a valid point.
office? mini food courts? quiet place? there can be a myriad of reasons, and to be honest, i think nommo is off the mark about the size. but thats me. (and no, im not taking an actual blueprint to voice my opinion, but if he or you can find validated reasons to dictate size that would then warrant the question as to why there are windows, then lets see it)
How about re-reading & correcting yourself. You quoted my response which was to another's post. A post I stated, "sounds like a valid point." I didn't even use the word size. Out of all the starships, & this doesn't seem to be the biggest starship ever, I'm guessing there's lots more without windows embedded in the nacelle pylons than there are.
They might not even be windows for that matter. The TOS Enterprise has what was officially called "window-like lights" in the show's internal documentation and the sets clearly show that there are no external-hull windows except in the shuttlebay catwalks. That is also supported by Kirk telling one of the female passengers that he often came down there (the catwalk) because it was the only place to look directly out into space with his own eyes. And some of those "window like lights" were on the nacelle struts.
There were various theories as to what those white glowing rectangles were, but since they had exactly the same glow as the sensor domes and the big square sensor patches on the dorsal surface of the saucer, the most likely one is that they are sensor panels too. They were probably spread out like that to avoid one hit taking out most of their sensors in a particular arc, and the shapes and arrangement were probably artistic license by the Starfleet engineers to suggest the windows that are probably on civilian ships (and on seagoing ships).
In fact, the reason they modified the shooting model to add the "window-like lights" was that people seeing the first pilot were not getting a sense of the size of the ship, and Roddenberry didn't want characters pointing it out in dialog all the time. Someone (Justman I think, but it has been a long time since I read The Making of Star Trek so I don't remember for sure) came up with the idea of the lights after seeing cruise liners at night and realizing that the viewers could use the rows to get an impression of the size of the ship that way.
Roddenberry liked the idea of the lights getting the impression across without burning dialog time, but would not budge on the original idea of the ship being windowless and submarine-like hull-wise so they never made any attempt to retrofit windows into the sets (not that it would have been practical anyway even if he had allowed it), and they officially became the unexplained "window-like lights".
That's some cool backstory there. Thanks phoenixc. I have yet to actually see them. I didn't notice them from the pic I saw & haven't seen it in-game yet to observe. The more I see a pic of this Parliament the saucer part reminds me of that other Millennium Falcon-esque looking Fed ship the Edison. This is a prime example of a situation where I wish we could at least look at all the ships in the Ship Customization Tailor even if we don't own them. Since there's already mechanics there with versions of the ship were able to look at but not apply if we don't own I'd think that would be possible. I'm certainly not going to gamble for it just to get a better look lol.
Yeah, I am 50/50 on the looks of the Parliment class as well. From some angles she looks pretty sleak and beautiful. Others, yeah i am not so sure.
Plus her size (640 - 700 meters if i am remembering the tweet right from one of the show workers/producers, ship designer) I would really need to get a look of her ingame before deciding if i should pull the trigger (stats dont bother me, I can design a ship build for anything).
Elite TFO's a long time ago were easy to get into. They were designed to be a dil farming level once you got your ship maxed before random and the extra dil boxes were added. Similarly to yellow TFO's now. Certain changes in the game made them uncommon and depopulated the ques. Having more people with higher ships could make them more common. Maybe they are reducing cost to slow float it so they are commonly played again in the long run. Possibly after future updates and content. Unless they were going to and changed the plan. I have a feeling that was the idea when borg cubes were still on the table as playable ships. Eventually they will or can be filled with a population of players once/if certain levels of content are added to the game.
Literally none of this is correct.
Elite TFO's are in the position they're in because they don't reward significantly over Advanced which are easier to the point of guaranteed success. Most players take the path of least resistance, it's not even their fault.. it's human nature. Elites exist for an entirely different reason, they exist for max geared players to have something harder to set their top tier items and traits against. Giving people 'higher end ships' will not populate elite queues, it will just make Advanced even easier. Ships in STO have slowly become more and more powerful over the years and over that same period, Elite Queue population has remained the same or diminished. I only know 2 or 3 other players that will even do Elites with me, most won't bother, not because they're too hard, just because they can get more for less by going advanced. If you give those guys more powerful ships, they'll still just do advanced.. they would do normal if the rewards were worth it.
Ok... Som and everyone arguing with Som... please just let it go. Its going nowhere.
As you can see from his posts after yours, he doesn't care what you or any other mod says. He is never going to "stop" or "let it go". Unless you actually do something every other post on this forum will always be Som screaming at the wind disagreeing with everyone who has any criticism of this game. We've reached the point of "put up, or shut up". Either do something, or don't bother telling him to "stop". He won't listen.
I hope I am not stirring anything, as I felt that discussing the way and price point of the Parliament's release is relevant to the topic. I have no personal gripe with you or anyone else, my remark about my observation stemmed from my point of view that you im particular often take the opposing viewpoint and put in the work to deconstruct other's points in a debate, but I sometimes feel that you are missing the point like in that instance with the issue of the Parliament being a very expensive ship due to the way they implemented it in the game. I got the feeling that your argument against statements that it'd be too expensive boiled down to if someone has a steady income they can save for it and thus, nothing can ever be "too expensive" and if they don't hit that mark, they have no business of being here in the first place. It is still legitimate, as customers, to voice the subjective feeling that things are too expensive the way they are provided.
That would also be my general comment on the issue regarding the ship and the uniforms and weapons. Lockbox and Lobi for regular, canon and era-appropriate items is a big swing and a miss in my opinion. It is a huge letdown to make these only purchasable by premium-currency or have it be virtually unachieveable (sure, technically a lockbox ship can be gotten with free keys on the first try and thus, costs nothing...). To me personally, even the 30€ price for regular store T6 ships is already skimming the acceptable margin. 5€ for a uniform, 15€ for a ship would be fine in my opinion. Or introduce new ships at 30 but have that price going down after a few years.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Yeah, that honestly makes no sense to me why things that are literally the same age as the game are still the same price they were back then - physical things depreciate in value as they age - a thing being digital is no excuse to not follow that same practice.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
@ambassadorkael#6946^This^ is the Type of Content I'd rather would spend Dil on, not on some stupid rerolls tokens, perfect Dil Sink idea right here, maybe we can spend Dil on the next uniforms then.
@ambassadorkael#6946^This^ is the Type of Content I'd rather would spend Dil on, not on some stupid rerolls tokens, perfect Dil Sink idea right here, maybe we can spend Dil on the next uniforms then.
They've tried putting uniforms in the dilithium store before, and it was a massive flop (primarily because they were WAY overpriced, but good luck convincing Cryptic that that's what the issue was). It was such a failure that those uniforms were eventually moved to the Lobi store anyway.
@ambassadorkael#6946^This^ is the Type of Content I'd rather would spend Dil on, not on some stupid rerolls tokens, perfect Dil Sink idea right here, maybe we can spend Dil on the next uniforms then.
They've tried putting uniforms in the dilithium store before, and it was a massive flop (primarily because they were WAY overpriced, but good luck convincing Cryptic that that's what the issue was). It was such a failure that those uniforms were eventually moved to the Lobi store anyway.
@ambassadorkael#6946^This^ is the Type of Content I'd rather would spend Dil on, not on some stupid rerolls tokens, perfect Dil Sink idea right here, maybe we can spend Dil on the next uniforms then.
They've tried putting uniforms in the dilithium store before, and it was a massive flop (primarily because they were WAY overpriced, but good luck convincing Cryptic that that's what the issue was). It was such a failure that those uniforms were eventually moved to the Lobi store anyway.
oh? that is fascinating.
Yep, the Enterprise MACO, TWoK Excursion, TWoK era Engineer vest, and TWoK era Captain's vest uniforms were all initially in the dilithium store for 1-2 MILLION dilithium depending on the uniform (MACO was the most expensive). The pricing was laughably bad, to this day I have no idea what the hell they were thinking when they chose those numbers.
(...)
I've seen game introduce new armor sets for 5 bucks and be met with MASS complaints about how they are "ripping people off!" and how costumes "should be free!" And price decay wont happen because digital items don't decay, thus never lose any intrinsic value. The closest we are going to get to a discount is like what we get for lockbox, lobi, and R&D ships when they are added to Mudd's Market.
I don't think players mass-complained about the old prices, but maybe I just missed that. Uniforms used to go for 500Z.
The explanation about price decay is unnecessary, sure it doesn't 'decay', that doesn't mean they couldn't reduce the price of old items. Their novelty wore off, new stuff comes out and rewarding people that wait and stick with the game for years with a bit of a reduced price would, in my opinion, be quite customer friendly.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Sorry, to me anything above $20-30 is whalebait. There is no way on god's green earth that I'd ever spend that much on a macro-transaction in a game.
(Over my time here, I've bought a number of single ships, and two or three of the 3-ship cross-faction bundles. Mostly with exchanged zen, so back before the exchange rate tanked. I used to open 10-20 lockboxes when a new one came out, again via dil or EC. Only 'rare' ship I ever got was the Quas, but got enough lobi to get a few T5/T6 ships and some costumes. I'm never going to buy any of these absurd bundles that they seem dedicated to putting out now. I just have to accept that the game no longer considers me a target customer. /shrug)
This is getting well and truly absurd. We get, what, two, maybe three ships a year that go into the C-store (as something other than the hilariously out-of-the-average-player's-budget Mudd's Market and Legendary bundles)?
Cryptic isn't even pretending to care about the average player anymore.
i mean its been pretty clear for at least a few years now that all that matter is milking money from people with disposable income.
Ok... Som and everyone arguing with Som... please just let it go. Its going nowhere.
As you can see from his posts after yours, he doesn't care what you or any other mod says. He is never going to "stop" or "let it go". Unless you actually do something every other post on this forum will always be Som screaming at the wind disagreeing with everyone who has any criticism of this game. We've reached the point of "put up, or shut up". Either do something, or don't bother telling him to "stop". He won't listen.
oh please, as if the mods here are impartial and capable of enforcing the rules equally lmfao.
Yeah, that honestly makes no sense to me why things that are literally the same age as the game are still the same price they were back then - physical things depreciate in value as they age - a thing being digital is no excuse to not follow that same practice.
Sure it is.
Digital items don't decay in the first place, and attempts to add decay to digital items, like digital books you can only read 20 items before you have to buy it again, have been met with STIFF resistance, and large scale internet rioting, by people.
They do depreciate in value, as newer more powerful ships are released making the older ones less worth the price they had when the old ships were the most powerful ships.
Yep, the Enterprise MACO, TWoK Excursion, TWoK era Engineer vest, and TWoK era Captain's vest uniforms were all initially in the dilithium store for 1-2 MILLION dilithium depending on the uniform (MACO was the most expensive). The pricing was laughably bad, to this day I have no idea what the hell they were thinking when they chose those numbers.
And then the TWoK goods (along with the TWoK phaser pistol) got added as an account-unlock to the New Genesis bundle.
They really need to change the stats on Parliament Class they are just plain underpowered for a lockbox ship end of story. I'm not going to get into it as how far as how bad they are but its just disappointing to say the least...
On a lighter note the Class looks beautiful and the art team nocked it out of the park as far as the space barbie goes I would say!
Its just sad that its such a weak "standard mastery package" 4/4 cruiser. The seating is bad, the sub-class is bad, its just plain bad, after more bad & energy builds are not even the overpowered meta!
They coulda done Lower Decks better, a lot of people were really looking forward to this class as well. It coulda been an amazing seller for Cryptic, now its just a fast joke & skip past.
I'm also now worried what they are going to do with the stats of the California Class when it comes out after seeing this.
Why would Cryptic want to make a popular Class from a popular show a very weak lockbox starship?! FYI the lockbox is not a problem for me just to make that clear for the record, weak "newer" lockbox starships are a big problem for me...
And sorry in advance, I don't want to just rip on Cryptic but I really needed to get this off my chest...
Yep, the Enterprise MACO, TWoK Excursion, TWoK era Engineer vest, and TWoK era Captain's vest uniforms were all initially in the dilithium store for 1-2 MILLION dilithium depending on the uniform (MACO was the most expensive). The pricing was laughably bad, to this day I have no idea what the hell they were thinking when they chose those numbers.
And then the TWoK goods (along with the TWoK phaser pistol) got added as an account-unlock to the New Genesis bundle.
As they should have because the dil pricing was outright ridiculous since each was just ONE piece of clothing (the top) with only the MACO outfit having more. And the rigging is quite awful (all uniforms have this, but those are particularly noticeable because of the price) if you either use a stance other than the default one or your character doesn't have a flat bust.
Yeah, that honestly makes no sense to me why things that are literally the same age as the game are still the same price they were back then - physical things depreciate in value as they age - a thing being digital is no excuse to not follow that same practice.
Sure it is.
Digital items don't decay in the first place, and attempts to add decay to digital items, like digital books you can only read 20 items before you have to buy it again, have been met with STIFF resistance, and large scale internet rioting, by people.
People have made it clear that they don't want, or consider, digital items to decay. So there should be neither actual decay of the item itself, and thus, no equal decay on its price.
The word used is depreciation. Arguing against decay is a textbook definition of strawman argument.
The fact is T5s are not the same value as they were prior to T6 ships. That value has sunk even lower since then due to all the free T6s that have been offered over the years, even the bundle deals that include various T5s, or the console they offer. T5 ships have no business being the same price as they were ten years ago.
Further, you can end up spending more money on a T5 versus a T6 for less benefit! All those suckers who bought the T5 Intrepid, then T5U upgrades for it once Delta Rising happened, only to have the Pathfinder come out shortly after, yeah they got royally screwed by Cryptic. They spent more on the T5 Intrepid and could have just waited a few months to get the Pathfinder cheaper.
Yeah, that honestly makes no sense to me why things that are literally the same age as the game are still the same price they were back then - physical things depreciate in value as they age - a thing being digital is no excuse to not follow that same practice.
Sure it is.
Digital items don't decay in the first place, and attempts to add decay to digital items, like digital books you can only read 20 items before you have to buy it again, have been met with STIFF resistance, and large scale internet rioting, by people.
People have made it clear that they don't want, or consider, digital items to decay. So there should be neither actual decay of the item itself, and thus, no equal decay on its price.
The word used is depreciation. Arguing against decay is a textbook definition of strawman argument.
The fact is T5s are not the same value as they were prior to T6 ships. That value has sunk even lower since then due to all the free T6s that have been offered over the years, even the bundle deals that include various T5s, or the console they offer. T5 ships have no business being the same price as they were ten years ago.
Further, you can end up spending more money on a T5 versus a T6 for less benefit! All those suckers who bought the T5 Intrepid, then T5U upgrades for it once Delta Rising happened, only to have the Pathfinder come out shortly after, yeah they got royally screwed by Cryptic. They spent more on the T5 Intrepid and could have just waited a few months to get the Pathfinder cheaper.
Just playing Devil's Advocate here, I have a couple toons flying T5u-X Science Vessels, one a Vesta class and the other a Fleet Retro Olympic/Horizon class. Both of those romp and stomp. They are perhaps not quite the equal of a T-6X, but in functional terms there isn't a lot of difference that CLR can see.
Comments
They might not even be windows for that matter. The TOS Enterprise has what was officially called "window-like lights" in the show's internal documentation and the sets clearly show that there are no external-hull windows except in the shuttlebay catwalks. That is also supported by Kirk telling one of the female passengers that he often came down there (the catwalk) because it was the only place to look directly out into space with his own eyes. And some of those "window like lights" were on the nacelle struts.
There were various theories as to what those white glowing rectangles were, but since they had exactly the same glow as the sensor domes and the big square sensor patches on the dorsal surface of the saucer, the most likely one is that they are sensor panels too. They were probably spread out like that to avoid one hit taking out most of their sensors in a particular arc, and the shapes and arrangement were probably artistic license by the Starfleet engineers to suggest the windows that are probably on civilian ships (and on seagoing ships).
In fact, the reason they modified the shooting model to add the "window-like lights" was that people seeing the first pilot were not getting a sense of the size of the ship, and Roddenberry didn't want characters pointing it out in dialog all the time. Someone (Justman I think, but it has been a long time since I read The Making of Star Trek so I don't remember for sure) came up with the idea of the lights after seeing cruise liners at night and realizing that the viewers could use the rows to get an impression of the size of the ship that way.
Roddenberry liked the idea of the lights getting the impression across without burning dialog time, but would not budge on the original idea of the ship being windowless and submarine-like hull-wise so they never made any attempt to retrofit windows into the sets (not that it would have been practical anyway even if he had allowed it), and they officially became the unexplained "window-like lights".
Considering red tfo's are no longer common we need higher end ships. Or some thing to make those available again one day.
> These aren't things only whales can buy, they are things anyone who isn't broke can save up for over a couple months. And, as has been pointed out before, you don't need to get all, or even most, of them to begin with.
You are being disingenuous here in my opinion. I don't think the point is that someone literally makes a choice between having food on the table or a game item, and even if they were, basically saying that they would then be too poor to partake in playing this game anyway is not a good argument. Yes, you have not literally used this argument, you are debating people for sport especially in topics that easily heat up emotionally, but words have implied meaning beyond the letters.
You are right that nobody has to buy anything, but the practice of putting ships in expensive bundles or lockboxes is frustrating for those that would like to have them, but don't value them nearly as high as the company is asking. Were they microtransactions there would be less complaints.
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That's some cool backstory there. Thanks phoenixc. I have yet to actually see them. I didn't notice them from the pic I saw & haven't seen it in-game yet to observe. The more I see a pic of this Parliament the saucer part reminds me of that other Millennium Falcon-esque looking Fed ship the Edison. This is a prime example of a situation where I wish we could at least look at all the ships in the Ship Customization Tailor even if we don't own them. Since there's already mechanics there with versions of the ship were able to look at but not apply if we don't own I'd think that would be possible. I'm certainly not going to gamble for it just to get a better look lol.
Yeah, I am 50/50 on the looks of the Parliment class as well. From some angles she looks pretty sleak and beautiful. Others, yeah i am not so sure.
Plus her size (640 - 700 meters if i am remembering the tweet right from one of the show workers/producers, ship designer) I would really need to get a look of her ingame before deciding if i should pull the trigger (stats dont bother me, I can design a ship build for anything).
Literally none of this is correct.
Elite TFO's are in the position they're in because they don't reward significantly over Advanced which are easier to the point of guaranteed success. Most players take the path of least resistance, it's not even their fault.. it's human nature. Elites exist for an entirely different reason, they exist for max geared players to have something harder to set their top tier items and traits against. Giving people 'higher end ships' will not populate elite queues, it will just make Advanced even easier. Ships in STO have slowly become more and more powerful over the years and over that same period, Elite Queue population has remained the same or diminished. I only know 2 or 3 other players that will even do Elites with me, most won't bother, not because they're too hard, just because they can get more for less by going advanced. If you give those guys more powerful ships, they'll still just do advanced.. they would do normal if the rewards were worth it.
As you can see from his posts after yours, he doesn't care what you or any other mod says. He is never going to "stop" or "let it go". Unless you actually do something every other post on this forum will always be Som screaming at the wind disagreeing with everyone who has any criticism of this game. We've reached the point of "put up, or shut up". Either do something, or don't bother telling him to "stop". He won't listen.
I hope I am not stirring anything, as I felt that discussing the way and price point of the Parliament's release is relevant to the topic. I have no personal gripe with you or anyone else, my remark about my observation stemmed from my point of view that you im particular often take the opposing viewpoint and put in the work to deconstruct other's points in a debate, but I sometimes feel that you are missing the point like in that instance with the issue of the Parliament being a very expensive ship due to the way they implemented it in the game. I got the feeling that your argument against statements that it'd be too expensive boiled down to if someone has a steady income they can save for it and thus, nothing can ever be "too expensive" and if they don't hit that mark, they have no business of being here in the first place. It is still legitimate, as customers, to voice the subjective feeling that things are too expensive the way they are provided.
That would also be my general comment on the issue regarding the ship and the uniforms and weapons. Lockbox and Lobi for regular, canon and era-appropriate items is a big swing and a miss in my opinion. It is a huge letdown to make these only purchasable by premium-currency or have it be virtually unachieveable (sure, technically a lockbox ship can be gotten with free keys on the first try and thus, costs nothing...). To me personally, even the 30€ price for regular store T6 ships is already skimming the acceptable margin. 5€ for a uniform, 15€ for a ship would be fine in my opinion. Or introduce new ships at 30 but have that price going down after a few years.
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#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
@ambassadorkael#6946 ^This^ is the Type of Content I'd rather would spend Dil on, not on some stupid rerolls tokens, perfect Dil Sink idea right here, maybe we can spend Dil on the next uniforms then.
They've tried putting uniforms in the dilithium store before, and it was a massive flop (primarily because they were WAY overpriced, but good luck convincing Cryptic that that's what the issue was). It was such a failure that those uniforms were eventually moved to the Lobi store anyway.
oh? that is fascinating.
Yep, the Enterprise MACO, TWoK Excursion, TWoK era Engineer vest, and TWoK era Captain's vest uniforms were all initially in the dilithium store for 1-2 MILLION dilithium depending on the uniform (MACO was the most expensive). The pricing was laughably bad, to this day I have no idea what the hell they were thinking when they chose those numbers.
I don't think players mass-complained about the old prices, but maybe I just missed that. Uniforms used to go for 500Z.
The explanation about price decay is unnecessary, sure it doesn't 'decay', that doesn't mean they couldn't reduce the price of old items. Their novelty wore off, new stuff comes out and rewarding people that wait and stick with the game for years with a bit of a reduced price would, in my opinion, be quite customer friendly.
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(Over my time here, I've bought a number of single ships, and two or three of the 3-ship cross-faction bundles. Mostly with exchanged zen, so back before the exchange rate tanked. I used to open 10-20 lockboxes when a new one came out, again via dil or EC. Only 'rare' ship I ever got was the Quas, but got enough lobi to get a few T5/T6 ships and some costumes. I'm never going to buy any of these absurd bundles that they seem dedicated to putting out now. I just have to accept that the game no longer considers me a target customer. /shrug)
i mean its been pretty clear for at least a few years now that all that matter is milking money from people with disposable income.
oh please, as if the mods here are impartial and capable of enforcing the rules equally lmfao.
They do depreciate in value, as newer more powerful ships are released making the older ones less worth the price they had when the old ships were the most powerful ships.
And then the TWoK goods (along with the TWoK phaser pistol) got added as an account-unlock to the New Genesis bundle.
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On a lighter note the Class looks beautiful and the art team nocked it out of the park as far as the space barbie goes I would say!
Its just sad that its such a weak "standard mastery package" 4/4 cruiser. The seating is bad, the sub-class is bad, its just plain bad, after more bad & energy builds are not even the overpowered meta!
They coulda done Lower Decks better, a lot of people were really looking forward to this class as well. It coulda been an amazing seller for Cryptic, now its just a fast joke & skip past.
I'm also now worried what they are going to do with the stats of the California Class when it comes out after seeing this.
Why would Cryptic want to make a popular Class from a popular show a very weak lockbox starship?! FYI the lockbox is not a problem for me just to make that clear for the record, weak "newer" lockbox starships are a big problem for me...
And sorry in advance, I don't want to just rip on Cryptic but I really needed to get this off my chest...
The word used is depreciation. Arguing against decay is a textbook definition of strawman argument.
The fact is T5s are not the same value as they were prior to T6 ships. That value has sunk even lower since then due to all the free T6s that have been offered over the years, even the bundle deals that include various T5s, or the console they offer. T5 ships have no business being the same price as they were ten years ago.
Further, you can end up spending more money on a T5 versus a T6 for less benefit! All those suckers who bought the T5 Intrepid, then T5U upgrades for it once Delta Rising happened, only to have the Pathfinder come out shortly after, yeah they got royally screwed by Cryptic. They spent more on the T5 Intrepid and could have just waited a few months to get the Pathfinder cheaper.
Just playing Devil's Advocate here, I have a couple toons flying T5u-X Science Vessels, one a Vesta class and the other a Fleet Retro Olympic/Horizon class. Both of those romp and stomp. They are perhaps not quite the equal of a T-6X, but in functional terms there isn't a lot of difference that CLR can see.