Much like how people were "forced" to do Sompek to get the unique ground shield..... Sure a lot of people complained and some may actually have not participated. It was still a reasonably popular event.
The difference is that Sompek is a pve event. Folks were being asked to do a pve event to get a largely pve item. If they were to add a new beam array that gave you 50% crit chance just for having it on the ship, and stuck it behind a pvp event, then you have in essence forced pvp on folks as no one would pass that up. Sompek is popular because you don't always know what kind of mobs you're going to get as there is variety to it. Folks can also see how many waves they can survive as well which is something no other queue really gives folks. Personally I don't count Kobyashi Maru runs in that category as the Suicide Maru should not be allowed to move like it does, or generate as much threat as it does.
Enh... If you had to WIN sure... but if you get progress just for losing? In that situation you can simply show up and get rekt, much like the "5 and die" people in Sompek. Which is how the current PvP endeavor works: "complete a PvP match"... not "win", "complete".
And with that condition on the PvP endeavor...do you see 100s or 10s or even more than 2 PvP queues going at a time? Hell, the last time there was a PvP endeavor, I had to wait something like 10 min or more to get ONE queue to pop. CCx endeavor and that thing pops instantly. Also, if there is no effort required, using something like this to rank people will fail as people will join, get rekt like you said and progress. So what is to prevent me from just join and AFK and let them kill me repeatedly so I have a 0/15 record with a loss on my record? So I end up bottom of the barrel rank? So if I actually do PvP for real, I end up with absolute scrubs who will get utterly rekt by me?
That's the point behind the ranking system. Win you go up, lose you go down. Since it's 5 on 5 it'd be based on your contributions and not simply win/lose. If you just spawn and get wrecked then you down rank a LOT.
As for the spawn camping, peeps who use absurd dps to spawn camp will rank up and get matched with other players like them.
There is a lot of middle ground though. It's a wide range of ability levels not just "god tier" and "losers".
Much like how people were "forced" to do Sompek to get the unique ground shield..... Sure a lot of people complained and some may actually have not participated. It was still a reasonably popular event.
The difference is that Sompek is a pve event. Folks were being asked to do a pve event to get a largely pve item. If they were to add a new beam array that gave you 50% crit chance just for having it on the ship, and stuck it behind a pvp event, then you have in essence forced pvp on folks as no one would pass that up. Sompek is popular because you don't always know what kind of mobs you're going to get as there is variety to it. Folks can also see how many waves they can survive as well which is something no other queue really gives folks. Personally I don't count Kobyashi Maru runs in that category as the Suicide Maru should not be allowed to move like it does, or generate as much threat as it does.
Enh... If you had to WIN sure... but if you get progress just for losing? In that situation you can simply show up and get rekt, much like the "5 and die" people in Sompek. Which is how the current PvP endeavor works: "complete a PvP match"... not "win", "complete".
And with that condition on the PvP endeavor...do you see 100s or 10s or even more than 2 PvP queues going at a time? Hell, the last time there was a PvP endeavor, I had to wait something like 10 min or more to get ONE queue to pop. CCx endeavor and that thing pops instantly. Also, if there is no effort required, using something like this to rank people will fail as people will join, get rekt like you said and progress. So what is to prevent me from just join and AFK and let them kill me repeatedly so I have a 0/15 record with a loss on my record? So I end up bottom of the barrel rank? So if I actually do PvP for real, I end up with absolute scrubs who will get utterly rekt by me?
That's the point behind the ranking system. Win you go up, lose you go down. Since it's 5 on 5 it'd be based on your contributions and not simply win/lose. If you just spawn and get wrecked then you down rank a LOT.
As for the spawn camping, peeps who use absurd dps to spawn camp will rank up and get matched with other players like them.
There is a lot of middle ground though. It's a wide range of ability levels not just "god tier" and "losers".
Good idea. But leaves to much open to abuse. For example, power ranking someone that sucks at PvP. Or intentionally losing to downgrade rank to continue to god mode it. So a rank up/down system wouldn't be any better than what we have now.
Much like how people were "forced" to do Sompek to get the unique ground shield..... Sure a lot of people complained and some may actually have not participated. It was still a reasonably popular event.
The difference is that Sompek is a pve event. Folks were being asked to do a pve event to get a largely pve item. If they were to add a new beam array that gave you 50% crit chance just for having it on the ship, and stuck it behind a pvp event, then you have in essence forced pvp on folks as no one would pass that up. Sompek is popular because you don't always know what kind of mobs you're going to get as there is variety to it. Folks can also see how many waves they can survive as well which is something no other queue really gives folks. Personally I don't count Kobyashi Maru runs in that category as the Suicide Maru should not be allowed to move like it does, or generate as much threat as it does.
Enh... If you had to WIN sure... but if you get progress just for losing? In that situation you can simply show up and get rekt, much like the "5 and die" people in Sompek. Which is how the current PvP endeavor works: "complete a PvP match"... not "win", "complete".
And with that condition on the PvP endeavor...do you see 100s or 10s or even more than 2 PvP queues going at a time? Hell, the last time there was a PvP endeavor, I had to wait something like 10 min or more to get ONE queue to pop. CCx endeavor and that thing pops instantly. Also, if there is no effort required, using something like this to rank people will fail as people will join, get rekt like you said and progress. So what is to prevent me from just join and AFK and let them kill me repeatedly so I have a 0/15 record with a loss on my record? So I end up bottom of the barrel rank? So if I actually do PvP for real, I end up with absolute scrubs who will get utterly rekt by me?
That's the point behind the ranking system. Win you go up, lose you go down. Since it's 5 on 5 it'd be based on your contributions and not simply win/lose. If you just spawn and get wrecked then you down rank a LOT.
As for the spawn camping, peeps who use absurd dps to spawn camp will rank up and get matched with other players like them.
There is a lot of middle ground though. It's a wide range of ability levels not just "god tier" and "losers".
Good idea. But leaves to much open to abuse. For example, power ranking someone that sucks at PvP. Or intentionally losing to downgrade rank to continue to god mode it. So a rank up/down system wouldn't be any better than what we have now.
Well people who suck SHOULD go down. That's kinda the point. They go down to the level with people of equal skill.
People who simply queue and sit idle will get kicked so far down the ladder that they'll end up in matches that never end because neither side did anything.
So...the point of your ranking system is to abuse it by going AFK during events to get blown to bits while getting the rewards AND lowering your rank so when you do PvP for real, you can obliterate the noobs who are there with you?!? So you admit your idea is bad than with your first sentence.
Actually... Why would the noobs be there to PvP "for real" at all? The flaw to your reasoning is the idea that the majority of "good" PvPers would intentionally downrank just to get kills... since that puts them back up where they were. Especially if the "victims" don't play more than one a day. It's not that I think NO ONE would sandbag to down-rank, more that it wouldn't be the norm.
Also a lot of games encourage you to not throw matches by giving the winner more stuff than the loser. Example: do a daily of 1 PvP match, said match gives 1k dil to the winning team, 500 to the losing team. If you're doing it to grind dil then losing is not in your best interest.
There are some that would do things because being a d*ckhead is in their perceived (perverted) best interest.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
out of curiosity, how would the OP feel about 20 day events where you had to have a unique costume contest, and most unique starship look contest? an event where it's all RP??
not surprised no reply.
You want a reply? Fine. Yes please to costume event. HELL no to an RP event...the ERPers in this game are disgusting...more than in other games. Or they are childish...like at a level where it is just gross.
you are not the OP but you will do to make the point exactly.
PVPers want the game changed to FORCE me to PvP, but HELL NO to anything I want to do. the difference is I would NEVER insist of FORCING you to RP
Much like how people were "forced" to do Sompek to get the unique ground shield..... Sure a lot of people complained and some may actually have not participated. It was still a reasonably popular event.
The difference is that Sompek is a pve event. Folks were being asked to do a pve event to get a largely pve item. If they were to add a new beam array that gave you 50% crit chance just for having it on the ship, and stuck it behind a pvp event, then you have in essence forced pvp on folks as no one would pass that up. Sompek is popular because you don't always know what kind of mobs you're going to get as there is variety to it. Folks can also see how many waves they can survive as well which is something no other queue really gives folks. Personally I don't count Kobyashi Maru runs in that category as the Suicide Maru should not be allowed to move like it does, or generate as much threat as it does.
Enh... If you had to WIN sure... but if you get progress just for losing? In that situation you can simply show up and get rekt, much like the "5 and die" people in Sompek. Which is how the current PvP endeavor works: "complete a PvP match"... not "win", "complete".
And with that condition on the PvP endeavor...do you see 100s or 10s or even more than 2 PvP queues going at a time? Hell, the last time there was a PvP endeavor, I had to wait something like 10 min or more to get ONE queue to pop. CCx endeavor and that thing pops instantly. Also, if there is no effort required, using something like this to rank people will fail as people will join, get rekt like you said and progress. So what is to prevent me from just join and AFK and let them kill me repeatedly so I have a 0/15 record with a loss on my record? So I end up bottom of the barrel rank? So if I actually do PvP for real, I end up with absolute scrubs who will get utterly rekt by me?
That's the point behind the ranking system. Win you go up, lose you go down. Since it's 5 on 5 it'd be based on your contributions and not simply win/lose. If you just spawn and get wrecked then you down rank a LOT.
As for the spawn camping, peeps who use absurd dps to spawn camp will rank up and get matched with other players like them.
There is a lot of middle ground though. It's a wide range of ability levels not just "god tier" and "losers".
Good idea. But leaves to much open to abuse. For example, power ranking someone that sucks at PvP. Or intentionally losing to downgrade rank to continue to god mode it. So a rank up/down system wouldn't be any better than what we have now.
Well people who suck SHOULD go down. That's kinda the point. They go down to the level with people of equal skill.
People who simply queue and sit idle will get kicked so far down the ladder that they'll end up in matches that never end because neither side did anything.
So...the point of your ranking system is to abuse it by going AFK during events to get blown to bits while getting the rewards AND lowering your rank so when you do PvP for real, you can obliterate the noobs who are there with you?!? So you admit your idea is bad than with your first sentence.
Actually... Why would the noobs be there to PvP "for real" at all? The flaw to your reasoning is the idea that the majority of "good" PvPers would intentionally downrank just to get kills... since that puts them back up where they were. Especially if the "victims" don't play more than one a day. It's not that I think NO ONE would sandbag to down-rank, more that it wouldn't be the norm.
Also a lot of games encourage you to not throw matches by giving the winner more stuff than the loser. Example: do a daily of 1 PvP match, said match gives 1k dil to the winning team, 500 to the losing team. If you're doing it to grind dil then losing is not in your best interest.
You're kind of missing my point. The god tier that you mention is what I'm talking about. Once they reached the pinnacle and are faced with fighting other god tier pvpers. All they have to do is the idle game, or intentional loss game. Thus, kicking them back down the ranks. Then when they're back down the ranks where they want to be, all they have to do is play the win/lose game to stay there. Thus, you end up with a system that is no better than the one we have now.
The structured pvp style that I mentioned is better. It leaves the current style. But, in the tiered matches as you rank up, you can select at which tier you want to compete. Thus, you're choosing what limitations you want to play with, and the whole god mode gankfest is alleviated. Granted, it's still going to have it's fair share of underachievers and afkers. But that can be handled via a scoreboard like you'd find in Romulan Mine Field or the old Big Dig. The better you perform int he match, the better your rewards. With this system, we also have the potential of looking at Cryptic and/or Fleet sponsored tourneys. This again will give rise to team play. Which the Competitive maps failed to do.
Though using your idea. Yes, they could add increasing EC and/or Dil rewards for winning and losing. Especially in a tiered system like the one I suggested here. But, not adding anything like endeavors that reward it, which could make the player feel compelled or forced to do it. But, leaves it as an option if they want to do it.
The tiered style I mentioned also takes care of a good deal of balance issues that pvp has.
out of curiosity, how would the OP feel about 20 day events where you had to have a unique costume contest, and most unique starship look contest? an event where it's all RP??
not surprised no reply.
You want a reply? Fine. Yes please to costume event. HELL no to an RP event...the ERPers in this game are disgusting...more than in other games. Or they are childish...like at a level where it is just gross.
you are not the OP but you will do to make the point exactly.
PVPers want the game changed to FORCE me to PvP, but HELL NO to anything I want to do. the difference is I would NEVER insist of FORCING you to RP
Not all PvPers want to force people into PvP and I think one of the problems is there are different groups and types of PvPers. Take my favorite form of PvP Capture and Hold that is very different to the pre established teams that do Arena PvP which in turn is very different PvP to those that hang around in Ker'ret and lastly we have what I think most people agree is the completely rubbish Competitive PvP area which was just badly designed from day 1.
I think it matters as what will get someone into one type of PvP might not apply to the other types.
Personally I do like the idea of some sort of ranking system that we can progress though and sort sort of leaderboard. But I am not sure on the best way to implant this and as others pointed out at that moment PvP population is so low a rank matching system wouldn't work. When there is barely enough people to get a match started there is just no way for the newbies to avoid the experts.
EDIT: Another problem is lack of information. I accidently spawned camped because of the silly way Arena PvP is setup. When I died I respawned at a random point. So assume everyone did and so after killing someone I didn't move spots. For some strange reason 1 team spawns randomly and the other team all spawn at a set point. There is no reason for this. Everyone should be random for Arena PvP or everyone should be the same.
So...the point of your ranking system is to abuse it by going AFK during events to get blown to bits while getting the rewards AND lowering your rank so when you do PvP for real, you can obliterate the noobs who are there with you?!? So you admit your idea is bad than with your first sentence.
Actually... Why would the noobs be there to PvP "for real" at all? The flaw to your reasoning is the idea that the majority of "good" PvPers would intentionally downrank just to get kills... since that puts them back up where they were. Especially if the "victims" don't play more than one a day. It's not that I think NO ONE would sandbag to down-rank, more that it wouldn't be the norm.
Also a lot of games encourage you to not throw matches by giving the winner more stuff than the loser. Example: do a daily of 1 PvP match, said match gives 1k dil to the winning team, 500 to the losing team. If you're doing it to grind dil then losing is not in your best interest.
The noob will be whoever does PvP and will be at the bottom on it. It doesn't matter what the scale is. There is always going to be the noob no matter what game you play and how skilled the players are at the game. It's comparative. So yes, there will ALWAYS be the noobs at PvP...even if they have played this game for years and can do a million DPS if there are better players. You don't need this to be the norm for your idea to fail because of it...you just need enough PvPers to be toxic and looking for high K/D ratio to stroke their e-peen for it to fail. Considering what we have seen from that group so far in JUST thing post, you seriously think that won't be a problem?
And giving winning team more reward won't work. They will just structure it so one side wins in seconds by having the other side remove shields and what not and keep switching to farm the rewards as fast as possible. This is why rewards for PvP was removed to begin with. No need to go back to that...with better rewards no less.
There is this and I had completely forgotten about it.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,579Community Moderator
I think the core issue is not just participation, but ability to game the system. We can argue over game modes and systems all we want, but at the end of the day all of that won't matter as long as participation and cheese are still a factor. And one will most certainly affect the other.
So how to keep people from cheesing the system is probably the discussion we should be having. Not what game modes will help.
At least that's my take away on the recent discussion.
you are not the OP but you will do to make the point exactly.
PVPers want the game changed to FORCE me to PvP, but HELL NO to anything I want to do. the difference is I would NEVER insist of FORCING you to RP
The OP doesn't want to force you to PvP. Their post is quite polite imho and is about PvP incentives. It's likely another poster in this thread who's comments you've been reading.
I think the core issue is not just participation, but ability to game the system. We can argue over game modes and systems all we want, but at the end of the day all of that won't matter as long as participation and cheese are still a factor. And one will most certainly affect the other.
So how to keep people from cheesing the system is probably the discussion we should be having. Not what game modes will help.
At least that's my take away on the recent discussion.
No matter what system we argue, participation is going to always be a problem. I mean, with the current AFK faction in the AFK friendly TFO's. We can just expect there will be a "Thanks for showing up!" reward.
However, a tiered system, liek the one that I mentioned, that imposes skill, gear and trait limitations, removes a large chunk of that cheese. Which comes from C-Store ships, traits and consoles included, Lobi ships, consoles and traits included, and traits from lock boxes. Limiting to locking these out alone, guts a large deal of the cheese the godmode players rely on.
Then with the Tiered selection that you can unlock, whether via just playing or reputation style, you're further limited to the ship tier. So, selecting a Tier 1 map, means you're got a Tier 1 ship. It also means you're locking you skills, traits and specializations to that Tier. Which for Tier 1 would would basically be the same as playing the Tutorial again skill, trait and specialization wise.
With the neglect that PvP has received and all the powercreep they've pounded into the game, this is the only way I can see for them to balance things to be fair for all.
It still leaves the current maps and play style in. But, for those that are looking to play that gankfest, it'll just be a long lonely wait for other to queue. Pretty much just like it is now. Because, when it comes to a PvP community, only a minority of players enjoy the gankfest. The rest want as fair and as balanced as they can get.
you are not the OP but you will do to make the point exactly.
PVPers want the game changed to FORCE me to PvP, but HELL NO to anything I want to do. the difference is I would NEVER insist of FORCING you to RP
The OP doesn't want to force you to PvP. Their post is quite polite imho and is about PvP incentives. It's likely another poster in this thread who's comments you've been reading.
I disagree. the OP wants to give great rewards to play a mode of the game that 99% do not want to play. as someone just above posted, a 10M ec award? where else can I play the game and get 10M ec for the same amount of gameplay? it's bad enough that elite marks are behind the advanced queue wall. now you want to give away currency in large amounts? casual PVE players may as well stop playing, because having that kind of currency will do nothing but drive exchange prices even higher than the ridiculous amounts they are now. I maintain if you are going to give exorbitant rewards for PVP you need to make those same rewards available in another mode of play.
I think the core issue is not just participation, but ability to game the system. We can argue over game modes and systems all we want, but at the end of the day all of that won't matter as long as participation and cheese are still a factor. And one will most certainly affect the other.
So how to keep people from cheesing the system is probably the discussion we should be having. Not what game modes will help.
At least that's my take away on the recent discussion.
No matter what system we argue, participation is going to always be a problem. I mean, with the current AFK faction in the AFK friendly TFO's. We can just expect there will be a "Thanks for showing up!" reward.
However, a tiered system, liek the one that I mentioned, that imposes skill, gear and trait limitations, removes a large chunk of that cheese. Which comes from C-Store ships, traits and consoles included, Lobi ships, consoles and traits included, and traits from lock boxes. Limiting to locking these out alone, guts a large deal of the cheese the godmode players rely on.
Then with the Tiered selection that you can unlock, whether via just playing or reputation style, you're further limited to the ship tier. So, selecting a Tier 1 map, means you're got a Tier 1 ship. It also means you're locking you skills, traits and specializations to that Tier. Which for Tier 1 would would basically be the same as playing the Tutorial again skill, trait and specialization wise.
With the neglect that PvP has received and all the powercreep they've pounded into the game, this is the only way I can see for them to balance things to be fair for all.
It still leaves the current maps and play style in. But, for those that are looking to play that gankfest, it'll just be a long lonely wait for other to queue. Pretty much just like it is now. Because, when it comes to a PvP community, only a minority of players enjoy the gankfest. The rest want as fair and as balanced as they can get.
Another major flaw in that is that both space Barbie and roll your own build flexibility are important to the playerbase, as shown by the unpopularity of "switching" scenarios like Renegade's Regret. Even forced "holodisguise" elements like in Battle at the Binary Stars are generally disliked. That mandatory ship switch thing would be as popular as dung in a hot tub.
I think the core issue is not just participation, but ability to game the system. We can argue over game modes and systems all we want, but at the end of the day all of that won't matter as long as participation and cheese are still a factor. And one will most certainly affect the other.
So how to keep people from cheesing the system is probably the discussion we should be having. Not what game modes will help.
At least that's my take away on the recent discussion.
No matter what system we argue, participation is going to always be a problem. I mean, with the current AFK faction in the AFK friendly TFO's. We can just expect there will be a "Thanks for showing up!" reward.
However, a tiered system, liek the one that I mentioned, that imposes skill, gear and trait limitations, removes a large chunk of that cheese. Which comes from C-Store ships, traits and consoles included, Lobi ships, consoles and traits included, and traits from lock boxes. Limiting to locking these out alone, guts a large deal of the cheese the godmode players rely on.
Then with the Tiered selection that you can unlock, whether via just playing or reputation style, you're further limited to the ship tier. So, selecting a Tier 1 map, means you're got a Tier 1 ship. It also means you're locking you skills, traits and specializations to that Tier. Which for Tier 1 would would basically be the same as playing the Tutorial again skill, trait and specialization wise.
With the neglect that PvP has received and all the powercreep they've pounded into the game, this is the only way I can see for them to balance things to be fair for all.
It still leaves the current maps and play style in. But, for those that are looking to play that gankfest, it'll just be a long lonely wait for other to queue. Pretty much just like it is now. Because, when it comes to a PvP community, only a minority of players enjoy the gankfest. The rest want as fair and as balanced as they can get.
Another major flaw in that is that both space Barbie and roll your own build flexibility are important to the playerbase, as shown by the unpopularity of "switching" scenarios like Renegade's Regret. Even forced "holodisguise" elements like in Battle at the Binary Stars are generally disliked. That mandatory ship switch thing would be as popular as dung in a hot tub.
No the ship skins could still be there. Just not the ship itself. So you could still have your space barbie. But, for the balance issues, something is going to have to be given up to get that. In this instance, "Give me! Give me! Give me!" doesn't work. The majority of the PvP community left because of the balance issues, especially after Delta Rising hit, and all they asked for was balancing. On this, all they were asking for was the balance that was there before the T5 ships with mastery came out.
This system also allows for Cryptic to expand on it over time. Thus being able to unlock more ships and traits for that flexibility and space barbie. This would just give them a fairly balanced foundation to build on as they do. Because we can all admit that the unbalanced powercreep that we have, is what has caused PvP to become what it is. The exodus of players at Delta Rising proves that, which took a good chunk of the PvP community with it. The sad part is, the players at the time even warn Cryptic that it would cause players to leave. One of the few times Cryptic should have actually listened to more than the "Give me! Give me! Give me!" crowd.
you are not the OP but you will do to make the point exactly.
PVPers want the game changed to FORCE me to PvP, but HELL NO to anything I want to do. the difference is I would NEVER insist of FORCING you to RP
The OP doesn't want to force you to PvP. Their post is quite polite imho and is about PvP incentives. It's likely another poster in this thread who's comments you've been reading.
I disagree. the OP wants to give great rewards to play a mode of the game that 99% do not want to play. as someone just above posted, a 10M ec award? where else can I play the game and get 10M ec for the same amount of gameplay? it's bad enough that elite marks are behind the advanced queue wall. now you want to give away currency in large amounts? casual PVE players may as well stop playing, because having that kind of currency will do nothing but drive exchange prices even higher than the ridiculous amounts they are now. I maintain if you are going to give exorbitant rewards for PVP you need to make those same rewards available in another mode of play.
People can suggest whatever rewards their imagination can come up with for PvP but that doesn't necessarily mean it even has a remote chance of happening. That mode of game play died many years ago. Much of what you're reading is more akin to theory crafting.
Several PvP veterans have posted in this thread. Their posts make for some interesting reading if additional context is needed.
The game currently seems to be designed around casual PvE. Serious PvE players may as well... (will leave that for another thread).
So...all this talk of balanced PvP is all fine and good...but unless there are people you WANT to play with...doesn't matter. I tried this with LoR...WAY before the DR issue happened. You know what? I'd rather play with the PvP players that are around now than back in the LoR age. While I still say that they are toxic as all hell now...they were WAY worse than...but the balance was MILES better than too. If the community is not nice and open and welcoming...nothing else you do matters. The old DPS league was REALLY good at being toxic and driving players away. Guess, what, they did something about that. All the none toxic players decided to split off and do their own thing...while the toxic ones stayed and died off. I thought that might happen with vanilla PvP as well...and it seemed to be working at the start, but some of the toxic players came over and they were not excised fast enough...and now, even that is pretty much gone. What has the PvP proponents have done so far in this thread? Make vague suggestions? Ignore somebody who asked for help? Told somebody that their opinion was worthless as they were bad at PvP? Demand that the game be changed to massive benefit them? All the system changes in the world won't help when you have people you don't wanna play with in the community. And guess what, this thread has pretty well shown off that the PvP players in this game are people most of us don't wanna play with.
No, I actually want to PvP. Hence why I make suggestions to improve it. I just don't play it right now, because I detest the gankfest that it is. Right now they could offer 2+ billion in the "Participate in a PvP" match endeavors, and I still wouldn't do them. And it's not the community to blame there, I have friends that like to PvP as it is. It's because the system itself is trash.
As for the toxic players, well that's on all sides here. As an RPer I've had several run-ins with toxic players that try to run us off, They have done this in a manner that has crossed the harassment line and a few of them have been banned because of it. Most times with toxic players, they just end up on my ignore list that is filled with bots that go all the way back to 2012, and then I just forget they exist. The only time I don't do this is when I'm using the /screenshot jpg_ui command to snap screenshots of their toxic behavior and chat to attach to the report about them. One can also do videos to capture this and attach it to the report.
But, we do agree on a few things here. We agree there's toxic players in all corners of the game. We can agree they can incentivize PvP all they want, but it's current state, it's not going to a lot of long term pvpers, they'll just be there for the reward. We also agree we can talk about it and make suggestions for improvement until we're blue in the face. But, we're all in the same boat here, waiting to see if Cryptic does anything about it or continues to ignore it. My bet is on the latter.
So...all this talk of balanced PvP is all fine and good...but unless there are people you WANT to play with...doesn't matter. I tried this with LoR...WAY before the DR issue happened. You know what? I'd rather play with the PvP players that are around now than back in the LoR age. While I still say that they are toxic as all hell now...they were WAY worse than...but the balance was MILES better than too. If the community is not nice and open and welcoming...nothing else you do matters. The old DPS league was REALLY good at being toxic and driving players away. Guess, what, they did something about that. All the none toxic players decided to split off and do their own thing...while the toxic ones stayed and died off. I thought that might happen with vanilla PvP as well...and it seemed to be working at the start, but some of the toxic players came over and they were not excised fast enough...and now, even that is pretty much gone. What has the PvP proponents have done so far in this thread? Make vague suggestions? Ignore somebody who asked for help? Told somebody that their opinion was worthless as they were bad at PvP? Demand that the game be changed to massive benefit them? All the system changes in the world won't help when you have people you don't wanna play with in the community. And guess what, this thread has pretty well shown off that the PvP players in this game are people most of us don't wanna play with.
No, I actually want to PvP. Hence why I make suggestions to improve it. I just don't play it right now, because I detest the gankfest that it is. Right now they could offer 2+ billion in the "Participate in a PvP" match endeavors, and I still wouldn't do them. And it's not the community to blame there, I have friends that like to PvP as it is. It's because the system itself is trash.
As for the toxic players, well that's on all sides here. As an RPer I've had several run-ins with toxic players that try to run us off, They have done this in a manner that has crossed the harassment line and a few of them have been banned because of it. Most times with toxic players, they just end up on my ignore list that is filled with bots that go all the way back to 2012, and then I just forget they exist. The only time I don't do this is when I'm using the /screenshot jpg_ui command to snap screenshots of their toxic behavior and chat to attach to the report about them. One can also do videos to capture this and attach it to the report.
But, we do agree on a few things here. We agree there's toxic players in all corners of the game. We can agree they can incentivize PvP all they want, but it's current state, it's not going to a lot of long term pvpers, they'll just be there for the reward. We also agree we can talk about it and make suggestions for improvement until we're blue in the face. But, we're all in the same boat here, waiting to see if Cryptic does anything about it or continues to ignore it. My bet is on the latter.
Balance does seem to be a big problem and a large part of that is it often feels like the only really viable tactic is mega speed Escort and its either join them doing that or die. I know its a little different in Arena PvP and you can just about get away with a full 100% tank build in 1v1 fights and there are some sci builds but on the whole it feels like 90% of PvP is just mega speed Escorts' doing Alpha strikes. Until that is fixed none of the other problems really matter.
you are not the OP but you will do to make the point exactly.
PVPers want the game changed to FORCE me to PvP, but HELL NO to anything I want to do. the difference is I would NEVER insist of FORCING you to RP
The OP doesn't want to force you to PvP. Their post is quite polite imho and is about PvP incentives. It's likely another poster in this thread who's comments you've been reading.
So...the point of your ranking system is to abuse it by going AFK during events to get blown to bits while getting the rewards AND lowering your rank so when you do PvP for real, you can obliterate the noobs who are there with you?!? So you admit your idea is bad than with your first sentence.
Actually... Why would the noobs be there to PvP "for real" at all? The flaw to your reasoning is the idea that the majority of "good" PvPers would intentionally downrank just to get kills... since that puts them back up where they were. Especially if the "victims" don't play more than one a day. It's not that I think NO ONE would sandbag to down-rank, more that it wouldn't be the norm.
Also a lot of games encourage you to not throw matches by giving the winner more stuff than the loser. Example: do a daily of 1 PvP match, said match gives 1k dil to the winning team, 500 to the losing team. If you're doing it to grind dil then losing is not in your best interest.
The noob will be whoever does PvP and will be at the bottom on it. It doesn't matter what the scale is. There is always going to be the noob no matter what game you play and how skilled the players are at the game. It's comparative. So yes, there will ALWAYS be the noobs at PvP...even if they have played this game for years and can do a million DPS if there are better players. You don't need this to be the norm for your idea to fail because of it...you just need enough PvPers to be toxic and looking for high K/D ratio to stroke their e-peen for it to fail. Considering what we have seen from that group so far in JUST thing post, you seriously think that won't be a problem?
Problem with that idea is that down-ranking means letting other people win, so it won't improve your K/D ratio at all.
And giving winning team more reward won't work. They will just structure it so one side wins in seconds by having the other side remove shields and what not and keep switching to farm the rewards as fast as possible. This is why rewards for PvP was removed to begin with. No need to go back to that...with better rewards no less.
Personally I do like the idea of some sort of ranking system that we can progress though and sort sort of leaderboard. But I am not sure on the best way to implant this and as others pointed out at that moment PvP population is so low a rank matching system wouldn't work. When there is barely enough people to get a match started there is just no way for the newbies to avoid the experts.
EDIT: Another problem is lack of information. I accidently spawned camped because of the silly way Arena PvP is setup. When I died I respawned at a random point. So assume everyone did and so after killing someone I didn't move spots. For some strange reason 1 team spawns randomly and the other team all spawn at a set point. There is no reason for this. Everyone should be random for Arena PvP or everyone should be the same.
that is a very different problem from player build imbalance. But yeah spawn camping is a failure in map design and not a flaw of general balance.
You're kind of missing my point. The god tier that you mention is what I'm talking about. Once they reached the pinnacle and are faced with fighting other god tier pvpers. All they have to do is the idle game, or intentional loss game. Thus, kicking them back down the ranks. Then when they're back down the ranks where they want to be, all they have to do is play the win/lose game to stay there. Thus, you end up with a system that is no better than the one we have now.
Some might, some probably wouldn't. At any rate they don't get better rewards for that.
The structured pvp style that I mentioned is better. It leaves the current style. But, in the tiered matches as you rank up, you can select at which tier you want to compete. Thus, you're choosing what limitations you want to play with, and the whole god mode gankfest is alleviated. Granted, it's still going to have it's fair share of underachievers and afkers. But that can be handled via a scoreboard like you'd find in Romulan Mine Field or the old Big Dig. The better you perform in the match, the better your rewards. With this system, we also have the potential of looking at Cryptic and/or Fleet sponsored tourneys. This again will give rise to team play. Which the Competitive maps failed to do.
Though using your idea. Yes, they could add increasing EC and/or Dil rewards for winning and losing. Especially in a tiered system like the one I suggested here. But, not adding anything like endeavors that reward it, which could make the player feel compelled or forced to do it. But, leaves it as an option if they want to do it.
Well tying your performance to your rewards would be great too. But it needs to be public queue, otherwise you can game it by choosing which side will actually fight and thus skew who gets kill credit etc....
The tiered style I mentioned also takes care of a good deal of balance issues that pvp has.
I think it'd take about a day for people to work out the new best DPS builds and thus the only real change is what the best build is.
I am not convinced match rewards along the lines of more dill, EC is the best way forward to help PvP. Perhaps something like Division 2 has with a season rank and event rank.
Progress up the levels both for the season which lasts 3 months and has 100 ranks and every two 2 weeks a smaller 15 weekly ranks with a different name that reset at the end of 2 weeks. Rewards can be a mix of cosmetic parts perhaps PvP style Vanity shields and PvP style equipment? Effectively two reward tree's. The automated 2 week one based around doing multiple match's of PvP and the 3 month one with better rewards and a season ranking for top players.
People like to to be at the top of ranking charts and they wouldn't lose match's to be matched against weaker people if it meant they get kicked out of the top 50 / top100. Ok some would but it might help a little?
Still the problem of how do you give out XP to rank up and how to you stop people abusing it. But it would give people a reason to PvP daily/Weekly.
I am not convinced match rewards along the lines of more dill, EC is the best way forward to help PvP. Perhaps something like Division 2 has with a season rank and event rank.
Progress up the levels both for the season which lasts 3 months and has 100 ranks and every two 2 weeks a smaller 15 weekly ranks with a different name that reset at the end of 2 weeks. Rewards can be a mix of cosmetic parts perhaps PvP style Vanity shields and PvP style equipment? Effectively two reward tree's. The automated 2 week one based around doing multiple match's of PvP and the 3 month one with better rewards and a season ranking for top players.
People like to to be at the top of ranking charts and they wouldn't lose match's to be matched against weaker people if it meant they get kicked out of the top 50 / top100. Ok some would but it might help a little?
Still the problem of how do you give out XP to rank up and how to you stop people abusing it. But it would give people a reason to PvP daily/Weekly.
Season ranking is the sort of thing I was thinking of. The reason to do your daily is to complete a task that takes weeks to complete. You get rewards for the daily but the real prize is the season reward. The higher your rank the better the rewards from the season event.
I am not convinced match rewards along the lines of more dill, EC is the best way forward to help PvP. Perhaps something like Division 2 has with a season rank and event rank.
Progress up the levels both for the season which lasts 3 months and has 100 ranks and every two 2 weeks a smaller 15 weekly ranks with a different name that reset at the end of 2 weeks. Rewards can be a mix of cosmetic parts perhaps PvP style Vanity shields and PvP style equipment? Effectively two reward tree's. The automated 2 week one based around doing multiple match's of PvP and the 3 month one with better rewards and a season ranking for top players.
People like to to be at the top of ranking charts and they wouldn't lose match's to be matched against weaker people if it meant they get kicked out of the top 50 / top100. Ok some would but it might help a little?
Still the problem of how do you give out XP to rank up and how to you stop people abusing it. But it would give people a reason to PvP daily/Weekly.
Season ranking is the sort of thing I was thinking of. The reason to do your daily is to complete a task that takes weeks to complete. You get rewards for the daily but the real prize is the season reward. The higher your rank the better the rewards from the season event.
This also works with the tiered system I mentioned. You can get a daily, tier rank, and seasonal reward this way. It would just need to be set to where max tier would reward again once you earned enough to rank up again, like the current specializations.
So...here's the thing...we have tried balanced PvP with vanilla PvP. It was actually doing great at the start. A lot of interest. Some decent growth. Didn't need extra rewards...extra anything. It was fun and friendly group...until the normal PvP players started to butt in. And they were not excised. And take a wild guess what happened next. People keep going on about how balancing this or that will make PvP great again. Well...vanilla PvP kinda shows that isn't the problem...or at least the main one. It also showed that there is an interest in this community for PvP as well. What is the problem is that no matter what PvP community forms...they can't help but be toxic little bottom feeders who will kill off the community because they need to show of their e-peen. Until you do what the DPS league did and excise those toxic people from the community...NOTHING the devs do will matter.
That's what I'm getting at with the tier system. It's making the base vanilla, which as you just pointed out works. With that in place as a starting point, which will eventually draw in more players. Then they can start adding in other abilities and such that are balanced to that. This includes the eventual return of c-store, lockbox, and lobi items to pvp, and even UR/Epic. Since I used UR in my previous and meant VR. Just not in the PvE powercreep method. Again, starting at a pretty fair and balanced base to work from.
The spawn camping, yeah, maps will need a bit of work to remove that. But with the balancing out, the chances of it happening are reduced, since the possibility of one team being stronger than the other is drastically reduced.
This could also help R&D. Where the stuff you get from the vendor is set in rarity, mk, and mods, and can't be re-engineered. But players could craft they're own gear for it, which can be re-engineered. So we have some potential there.
As for toxic players, that one we'd have to trust the community on. When they're pushed off to the side because no one wants to be around them, that should help there. Then with the influx of more players to PvP, well, that means more reports against them. While I'd prefer they straighten themselves out. If getting the banned is what has to happen, it's what has to happen.
Comments
As for the spawn camping, peeps who use absurd dps to spawn camp will rank up and get matched with other players like them.
There is a lot of middle ground though. It's a wide range of ability levels not just "god tier" and "losers".
My character Tsin'xing
Good idea. But leaves to much open to abuse. For example, power ranking someone that sucks at PvP. Or intentionally losing to downgrade rank to continue to god mode it. So a rank up/down system wouldn't be any better than what we have now.
People who simply queue and sit idle will get kicked so far down the ladder that they'll end up in matches that never end because neither side did anything. Actually... Why would the noobs be there to PvP "for real" at all? The flaw to your reasoning is the idea that the majority of "good" PvPers would intentionally downrank just to get kills... since that puts them back up where they were. Especially if the "victims" don't play more than one a day. It's not that I think NO ONE would sandbag to down-rank, more that it wouldn't be the norm.
Also a lot of games encourage you to not throw matches by giving the winner more stuff than the loser. Example: do a daily of 1 PvP match, said match gives 1k dil to the winning team, 500 to the losing team. If you're doing it to grind dil then losing is not in your best interest.
My character Tsin'xing
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
you are not the OP but you will do to make the point exactly.
PVPers want the game changed to FORCE me to PvP, but HELL NO to anything I want to do. the difference is I would NEVER insist of FORCING you to RP
You're kind of missing my point. The god tier that you mention is what I'm talking about. Once they reached the pinnacle and are faced with fighting other god tier pvpers. All they have to do is the idle game, or intentional loss game. Thus, kicking them back down the ranks. Then when they're back down the ranks where they want to be, all they have to do is play the win/lose game to stay there. Thus, you end up with a system that is no better than the one we have now.
The structured pvp style that I mentioned is better. It leaves the current style. But, in the tiered matches as you rank up, you can select at which tier you want to compete. Thus, you're choosing what limitations you want to play with, and the whole god mode gankfest is alleviated. Granted, it's still going to have it's fair share of underachievers and afkers. But that can be handled via a scoreboard like you'd find in Romulan Mine Field or the old Big Dig. The better you perform int he match, the better your rewards. With this system, we also have the potential of looking at Cryptic and/or Fleet sponsored tourneys. This again will give rise to team play. Which the Competitive maps failed to do.
Though using your idea. Yes, they could add increasing EC and/or Dil rewards for winning and losing. Especially in a tiered system like the one I suggested here. But, not adding anything like endeavors that reward it, which could make the player feel compelled or forced to do it. But, leaves it as an option if they want to do it.
The tiered style I mentioned also takes care of a good deal of balance issues that pvp has.
I think it matters as what will get someone into one type of PvP might not apply to the other types.
Personally I do like the idea of some sort of ranking system that we can progress though and sort sort of leaderboard. But I am not sure on the best way to implant this and as others pointed out at that moment PvP population is so low a rank matching system wouldn't work. When there is barely enough people to get a match started there is just no way for the newbies to avoid the experts.
EDIT: Another problem is lack of information. I accidently spawned camped because of the silly way Arena PvP is setup. When I died I respawned at a random point. So assume everyone did and so after killing someone I didn't move spots. For some strange reason 1 team spawns randomly and the other team all spawn at a set point. There is no reason for this. Everyone should be random for Arena PvP or everyone should be the same.
There is this and I had completely forgotten about it.
So how to keep people from cheesing the system is probably the discussion we should be having. Not what game modes will help.
At least that's my take away on the recent discussion.
The OP doesn't want to force you to PvP. Their post is quite polite imho and is about PvP incentives. It's likely another poster in this thread who's comments you've been reading.
No matter what system we argue, participation is going to always be a problem. I mean, with the current AFK faction in the AFK friendly TFO's. We can just expect there will be a "Thanks for showing up!" reward.
However, a tiered system, liek the one that I mentioned, that imposes skill, gear and trait limitations, removes a large chunk of that cheese. Which comes from C-Store ships, traits and consoles included, Lobi ships, consoles and traits included, and traits from lock boxes. Limiting to locking these out alone, guts a large deal of the cheese the godmode players rely on.
Then with the Tiered selection that you can unlock, whether via just playing or reputation style, you're further limited to the ship tier. So, selecting a Tier 1 map, means you're got a Tier 1 ship. It also means you're locking you skills, traits and specializations to that Tier. Which for Tier 1 would would basically be the same as playing the Tutorial again skill, trait and specialization wise.
With the neglect that PvP has received and all the powercreep they've pounded into the game, this is the only way I can see for them to balance things to be fair for all.
It still leaves the current maps and play style in. But, for those that are looking to play that gankfest, it'll just be a long lonely wait for other to queue. Pretty much just like it is now. Because, when it comes to a PvP community, only a minority of players enjoy the gankfest. The rest want as fair and as balanced as they can get.
I disagree. the OP wants to give great rewards to play a mode of the game that 99% do not want to play. as someone just above posted, a 10M ec award? where else can I play the game and get 10M ec for the same amount of gameplay? it's bad enough that elite marks are behind the advanced queue wall. now you want to give away currency in large amounts? casual PVE players may as well stop playing, because having that kind of currency will do nothing but drive exchange prices even higher than the ridiculous amounts they are now. I maintain if you are going to give exorbitant rewards for PVP you need to make those same rewards available in another mode of play.
Another major flaw in that is that both space Barbie and roll your own build flexibility are important to the playerbase, as shown by the unpopularity of "switching" scenarios like Renegade's Regret. Even forced "holodisguise" elements like in Battle at the Binary Stars are generally disliked. That mandatory ship switch thing would be as popular as dung in a hot tub.
No the ship skins could still be there. Just not the ship itself. So you could still have your space barbie. But, for the balance issues, something is going to have to be given up to get that. In this instance, "Give me! Give me! Give me!" doesn't work. The majority of the PvP community left because of the balance issues, especially after Delta Rising hit, and all they asked for was balancing. On this, all they were asking for was the balance that was there before the T5 ships with mastery came out.
This system also allows for Cryptic to expand on it over time. Thus being able to unlock more ships and traits for that flexibility and space barbie. This would just give them a fairly balanced foundation to build on as they do. Because we can all admit that the unbalanced powercreep that we have, is what has caused PvP to become what it is. The exodus of players at Delta Rising proves that, which took a good chunk of the PvP community with it. The sad part is, the players at the time even warn Cryptic that it would cause players to leave. One of the few times Cryptic should have actually listened to more than the "Give me! Give me! Give me!" crowd.
People can suggest whatever rewards their imagination can come up with for PvP but that doesn't necessarily mean it even has a remote chance of happening. That mode of game play died many years ago. Much of what you're reading is more akin to theory crafting.
Several PvP veterans have posted in this thread. Their posts make for some interesting reading if additional context is needed.
The game currently seems to be designed around casual PvE. Serious PvE players may as well... (will leave that for another thread).
No, I actually want to PvP. Hence why I make suggestions to improve it. I just don't play it right now, because I detest the gankfest that it is. Right now they could offer 2+ billion in the "Participate in a PvP" match endeavors, and I still wouldn't do them. And it's not the community to blame there, I have friends that like to PvP as it is. It's because the system itself is trash.
As for the toxic players, well that's on all sides here. As an RPer I've had several run-ins with toxic players that try to run us off, They have done this in a manner that has crossed the harassment line and a few of them have been banned because of it. Most times with toxic players, they just end up on my ignore list that is filled with bots that go all the way back to 2012, and then I just forget they exist. The only time I don't do this is when I'm using the /screenshot jpg_ui command to snap screenshots of their toxic behavior and chat to attach to the report about them. One can also do videos to capture this and attach it to the report.
But, we do agree on a few things here. We agree there's toxic players in all corners of the game. We can agree they can incentivize PvP all they want, but it's current state, it's not going to a lot of long term pvpers, they'll just be there for the reward. We also agree we can talk about it and make suggestions for improvement until we're blue in the face. But, we're all in the same boat here, waiting to see if Cryptic does anything about it or continues to ignore it. My bet is on the latter.
Problem with that idea is that down-ranking means letting other people win, so it won't improve your K/D ratio at all.
that only works if you have a private queue.
that is a very different problem from player build imbalance. But yeah spawn camping is a failure in map design and not a flaw of general balance. Some might, some probably wouldn't. At any rate they don't get better rewards for that. Well tying your performance to your rewards would be great too. But it needs to be public queue, otherwise you can game it by choosing which side will actually fight and thus skew who gets kill credit etc.... I think it'd take about a day for people to work out the new best DPS builds and thus the only real change is what the best build is.
My character Tsin'xing
Progress up the levels both for the season which lasts 3 months and has 100 ranks and every two 2 weeks a smaller 15 weekly ranks with a different name that reset at the end of 2 weeks. Rewards can be a mix of cosmetic parts perhaps PvP style Vanity shields and PvP style equipment? Effectively two reward tree's. The automated 2 week one based around doing multiple match's of PvP and the 3 month one with better rewards and a season ranking for top players.
People like to to be at the top of ranking charts and they wouldn't lose match's to be matched against weaker people if it meant they get kicked out of the top 50 / top100. Ok some would but it might help a little?
Still the problem of how do you give out XP to rank up and how to you stop people abusing it. But it would give people a reason to PvP daily/Weekly.
My character Tsin'xing
This also works with the tiered system I mentioned. You can get a daily, tier rank, and seasonal reward this way. It would just need to be set to where max tier would reward again once you earned enough to rank up again, like the current specializations.
That's what I'm getting at with the tier system. It's making the base vanilla, which as you just pointed out works. With that in place as a starting point, which will eventually draw in more players. Then they can start adding in other abilities and such that are balanced to that. This includes the eventual return of c-store, lockbox, and lobi items to pvp, and even UR/Epic. Since I used UR in my previous and meant VR. Just not in the PvE powercreep method. Again, starting at a pretty fair and balanced base to work from.
The spawn camping, yeah, maps will need a bit of work to remove that. But with the balancing out, the chances of it happening are reduced, since the possibility of one team being stronger than the other is drastically reduced.
This could also help R&D. Where the stuff you get from the vendor is set in rarity, mk, and mods, and can't be re-engineered. But players could craft they're own gear for it, which can be re-engineered. So we have some potential there.
As for toxic players, that one we'd have to trust the community on. When they're pushed off to the side because no one wants to be around them, that should help there. Then with the influx of more players to PvP, well, that means more reports against them. While I'd prefer they straighten themselves out. If getting the banned is what has to happen, it's what has to happen.