'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Similarly, expecting people who are trying to kill you to be nice about it is a bit weird. This isn't Marquis of Queensbury rules. If someone successfully does a spacefold to your location and kills you with a Na'khul assassin blade strike, well, they won that fight. If you want them not do that next time, it's up to you to MAKE them not do that.
Actually, a gentleman's agreement can be enforced, with a little bit of creativity.
at any given map factions are neither hostile nor friendly*
Lets say I.K.S pwnNOOB5000 warps in to a place where U.S.S Space Barbie is doing business, of the two have to get within 10km range, for a "hail" option to pop.
I.K.S pwnN00B5000 clicks the hails option, U.S.S Space Barbie gets 3 options: "On Screen" "Dismiss" "Ignore",
.
.
.
Mmm.... that's just a fancy way to issue personal duel challenges.
Odds are anyone who's doing the PvP endeavor is getting together with friends and just gaming the system that way rather than going into a queue.
Honestly I just ignore that endeavor. Not worth the frustration.
But what if it was a 20-day event?
Win or lose you still get event progress. If there's a ranking system then the more you lose the easier the matches.
There are ways to fix PvP in this game...but that requires the PvP playerbase to be less toxic and the devs to be more competent at it. AKA not gonna happen.
Lolz, neither of those will happen.
The game is not balanced around PvP, thus PvP balanced is terrible. This is a known quantity, so deal with it.
Similarly, expecting people who are trying to kill you to be nice about it is a bit weird. This isn't Marquis of Queensbury rules. If someone successfully does a spacefold to your location and kills you with a Na'khul assassin blade strike, well, they won that fight. If you want them not do that next time, it's up to you to MAKE them not do that.
1) so...forced PvP it is than? Because you do realize that option is pretty much DOA in this game right?
"forced"? You know we're talking about queued content right? It's only "forced" in the sense of "If you want the reward, do the thing".
2) The devs have to deal with the balance issue...but no, players can be civil in PvP matches. In most games for example, spawn camping is HIGHLY looked down upon. Like to the point of your teammates will stop playing and lose the match looked down upon on extreme cases.
Mmmm What game is that? Sure, "Spawn camping is bad" aside from that?
Based on the game, there can be other generally agreed upon civilities. For example, in an open world PvP game I play in, it is custom to ask for a duel if there is confrontation about an area and than type R and wait for both parties to do so before you engage. Does everyone do it? No...but it is something almost always done. If you don't do this, you may find your guild perma decced and hunted by other players. If you are guildless...you may find yourself perma hunted. This isn't a real life or death situation...it's a game. If you can't be civil in a game...I shutter to think what you do in real life.
No idea what game this is talking about but it seems to be an open world survival game where you're fighting over resources, and losing fights means the other guy gets your stuff... not particularly relevant since STO PvP has no actual losses.
You'd have to find some way to keep someone from Spamming it. Don't forget that we also have to consider the Trolls out there who will find any way to abuse a system for their own personal enjoyment at the expense of others. Remember the Disco Balls and how they used to be usable anywhere?
they still are AFAIK. really is a disco ball necessary at the ship selection console on ESD? what is as bad are the trolls and yes I am calling them trolls who incessantly spam fleet invites. pop into ESD orbit, see 12 fleet invites before you can hit the engines to move toward spacedock. and what kind of IDIOT spams you with a fleet invite at the start of a TFO??
out of curiosity, how would the OP feel about 20 day events where you had to have a unique costume contest, and most unique starship look contest? an event where it's all RP??
So...remember what I said about rewards so good, it might as well be? The forum has spoken on what they think of that idea. Look, I actually would not mind such a think...but wanna see the forum burn? Have a dev put a 20 day PvP event into the game. We'd be like, remember the nice quite days of the forum...like after the release of DR?
And how large of a reward are you thinking? I was thinking of something more like 50 lobi.
> @markhawkman said: > Mmm.... that's just a fancy way to issue personal duel challenges.
haha yeah, with a more natural flow to it, and few RP elements, it only make sense in a open world adventure system though.
@westmetal, if u really think it is that important then ok, have cruisers conceal eng consoles, escorts conceal tac consoles and sci conceal science consoles. I think you are arguing peanuts here, but anyway.
But don't you think a system that allows you to pvp with players on your progress level and on good gentleman's agreement to be much different than the negative experience you described ?
the idea behind is to tell whether someone is seasoned pvp player or a casual, so a casual player who is afraid of engaging pvp sharks can then decline the fight.
The engineering and science consoles are usually where your expensive "clicks" are stored, while the tactical slots are usually for general-available to all consoles are, they only reveal strategy.
Not true for exotic science builds, as their stat-booster consoles (the equivalent of your tac consoles) ARE science consoles. But whatever. You're obviously only interested in whatever YOU think and ***** anyone else, even though this is supposedly a "discussion" forum.
Keep in mind that this system idea is intended to protect casuals from bad experience, i personally don't care one bit what you are wearing, if i want to pvp i simply go into karet and shoot it out without the need of a baby-sitting system protecting me from bad experience.
YOU ARE ENTIRELY MISSING THE POINT OF THIS ENTIRE THREAD.
And yes I know, caps. I meant to shout that.
The lack of involvement in PVP is not and has never been about fear or needing to be babysat.
Nor is it caused by a lack of adequate opportunity (there are literally about 10-12 places, counting TFOs, where you can PVP... though admittedly quite a few of those are ground) or adequate economic incentives.
It's not even a lack of interest! (evidence: all the people who've tried PVP, and gotten smacked down hard enough to have the sort of feelings about it that I and others are expressing.)
It's due to the fact that the system is so incredibly imbalanced that new-to-PVP players have absolutely no chance of having fun, because they can (and do) die instantly and repeatedly unless they're PERFECTLY INVULNERABLE... and the abilities that do that are either prohibitively expensive to get and/or unreliable. Which translates directly into a lack of interest in continually being treated like an immobile target.
Think of it this way: would you spend YOUR time being the paper target on a police firing range? Never getting to dodge or shoot back? Simply being used as a demonstration of "hey, look at my score!"
Of course you wouldn't. And no amount of adding economic incentives or more locations is going to fix any of that. (In fact, adding locations will probably worsen the problem you are trying to solve. By spreading out the existing players.)
I'm not afraid of losing a fight. But it needs to be a fight. Not a single punch knockout every time. Or else there is no possibility of EVER improving or winning and thus there is no challenge or enjoyment. As I said: I'm not afraid. But I'm also not going to show up to a fight that I know, without a doubt, 100%, I will lose.
spot on!
that simple it is and always has been...
kinda since cryptic took over....... dunno if u guys even realize how much too late ur to the party lol. no toxicity ever could've had an impact like it had on some, if the system would gotten some serious balance improvements. it kinda never had such, only some effects got adjusted/fixed cosmetically along the way. mostly things which just been bugged in sense of wai anyway....
it had been discussed, all of it lol! u kinda can bet on this! there's a full subforum, filled up over years and now starving for years... coz it's dead jim. like in "really dead"!
they can't, they won't!!!........
kudos though to bringing it up to 7 pages. on a funny sidenote: i see people discussing the matter who i do remember to oppose the cause years ago lol..... but yeah, like adenauer said:"why i should be interested in my yesterdays nonsense?! nothing keeps me from learning new things" or something along such lines.....
"Since Cryptic took over"? You realize this game is Cryptic's baby, right? Perpetual never managed to produce anything more than a few promo images, most famously something that looked like a Galaxy-class dragging its butt on the carpet.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,533Community Moderator
Counterstrike. TF2. Both games where if you spawn camp, you can expect your team mates to bail. Or at least when I played them. Red battlefield for BDO is another...and more current.
I avoid the Egypt map on TF2 for that reason because it encourages the defending team to spawncamp. The first capture point is literally right outside the first spawn zone. So naturally the best defensive strategy is the same as any other capture point. Do not let the enemy near it. In this case you have them literally bottlenecked in their own spawn point.
And I like Attack/Defend maps. Especially Mann Manor. But Egypt? Nope.
out of curiosity, how would the OP feel about 20 day events where you had to have a unique costume contest, and most unique starship look contest? an event where it's all RP??
@coldnapalm, how about the toxic nature of your replies, constantly barking at me and implying i have some kind of evil intend?
When i play pvp my friendlist constantly increases, when i post here in attempt to help, i am systematically being attack for it. I am starting to think maybe after all you don't deserve better pvp experience, all you should get is the loading screen and this is fair.
Don't bother replying to me, i am loggin out of these forums.
I have to say that cold, reyan, dave, nagus and some others have always been very helpful when I've needed help. Yes, they can also be confrontational, but only when someone else gets confrontational first.
Otherwise, they're all pretty reasonable. OP, you've been anything except reasonable. It seems the only 'discussion' you want is 'agree with me or git out.'
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,533Community Moderator
Otherwise, they're all pretty reasonable. OP, you've been anything except reasonable. It seems the only 'discussion' you want is 'agree with me or git out.'
I'd have to agree with this. Other than one single post where the attitude was reeled in, its been all "agree or gtfo". That is not a discussion, that is, franky, ego stroking. And it was getting to the level of a certain Tangerine claiming to know more about subjects than the experts.
We all know who I speak of, so lets leave it at that.
Not considering our concerns, and even pretty much ending with "you deserve it" tells me "I don't want to make it fair or accessable. I just want to boost my K/D ratio". Hell... even those last couple posts, at least to me, came more across as "I'm better than you scrubs. Now PvP so I can kill you more". Pure epeen in action. If he really was honest about finding a way to make PvP more accessable, he would have actually listened to our concerns and had a civil discussion where we could all bounce ideas around. Not double down on his own and lash out against people who raise legit concerns.
To restart discussion, I would really like to see a 1v1 queue because it is really the only viable pvp option in this game as is. Of course there would still be a huge balance problem that doesn't seem fixable*. I personally would still make use of a 1v1 queue because I like testing my builds against other players.
*Strictly speaking, the balance issue is fixable, but it would take a lot of progamming hours and money without providing any revenue. Thus I say it is not fixable realistically speaking because Cryptic probably can't afford it.
out of curiosity, how would the OP feel about 20 day events where you had to have a unique costume contest, and most unique starship look contest? an event where it's all RP??
not surprised no reply.
You want a reply? Fine. Yes please to costume event. HELL no to an RP event...the ERPers in this game are disgusting...more than in other games. Or they are childish...like at a level where it is just gross.
While some people do play both, RP and ERP are entirely different genres and generally appeal to different player communities. It is just like how slash is a form of fanfic but not all fanfic is slash (in fact the vast majority of it isn't).
As for the PvP, one of the reasons it is not really a thing here is that Star Trek has the reputation for being an RP game (even though there is not a lot of that actually done here unless you count light solo RP when doing episode missions) which attracts RPers, and they tend to be lukewarm at most towards PvP.
Anything tied to a show or novel series attracts roleplayers, in fact that was something the Defiance game/TV show developers failed to realize (the game was a shooter and the company tried to discourage roleplaying) which is part of what made the experiment flop (though it has a lot of other problems too, like almost no coordination between the game and the show writing, and just poor writing in general) though the game itself was a good shooter.
Also STO has become a sort of haven for people who are sick to death of PvP from other games and just want to do casual (or sometimes not so casual) PvE.
I don’t normally spar with the sharp wits of this crowd, because I do not consider myself a gamer. And you guys intimidate me seriously sometimes.
But I often read cold, seaofsorrows, and westmetals advice and genuinely find what I understand of it to be useful.
I remember wast33 too and used to read him very seriously as well. In fact, when I first played STO—I was pvping way before I played my first TFO.
But we did not have gold equipment in 2012, right. Even a blue phaser build was viable for PVP then. A noob could win 30%~40% of the time without key binds nor even understanding the game mechanics. And it was fun.
My STO history is a little cloudy, but I remember the PVP crowed was very, very vocal about balance and power creeps. Most of the nerfing that occurred was directly related to those forum discussions.
Even developers and branflakes contributed to the forum then and I guess I am nostalgic about that time (although I was probably more hostile in my comments—if I was commenting).
I would be interested in viable PVP again, but I do not think it is realistic in the current meta. At least, I would be very hesitant to try PVP again. I see the DPS you kids pull nowadays—it is scary!
And although I do not think PVP incentives are necessary nor viable, I am also just concerned about the state of the forums. Whenever anyone comes up with a suggestion—they face a lot, a lot of pushback, right.
Arguments abound about the spaghetti code, or profitability, or possible FCT violation. And I get it, because it doesn’t seem viable and we have heard this argument many, many times.
The takeaway I got from wast was that none of these arguments are new. And certainly seaofsorrows and coldnapalm have been debating these ideas for the better part of a decade...
I don’t think our forum community is “toxic” as rattler said elsewhere—but it is certainly a “stubborn” community.
We have a lot of moderation and censorship already. I just wish we didn’t feel obligated to self-censor and reproduce ancient developer arguments as well.
The panopticon of the forum is more bitter than the moderation.
But ultimately it is a 10-year-old game—and although the 2012 game and community was quite different—maybe the ship has sailed on PVP and novel game systems...
My argument is starting to get as cloudy as my sense history, here. So I will leave that last beat as my thesis.
Comments
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
My character Tsin'xing
they still are AFAIK. really is a disco ball necessary at the ship selection console on ESD? what is as bad are the trolls and yes I am calling them trolls who incessantly spam fleet invites. pop into ESD orbit, see 12 fleet invites before you can hit the engines to move toward spacedock. and what kind of IDIOT spams you with a fleet invite at the start of a TFO??
My character Tsin'xing
> Mmm.... that's just a fancy way to issue personal duel challenges.
haha yeah, with a more natural flow to it, and few RP elements, it only make sense in a open world adventure system though.
@westmetal, if u really think it is that important then ok, have cruisers conceal eng consoles, escorts conceal tac consoles and sci conceal science consoles. I think you are arguing peanuts here, but anyway.
But don't you think a system that allows you to pvp with players on your progress level and on good gentleman's agreement to be much different than the negative experience you described ?
spot on!
that simple it is and always has been...
kinda since cryptic took over....... dunno if u guys even realize how much too late ur to the party lol. no toxicity ever could've had an impact like it had on some, if the system would gotten some serious balance improvements. it kinda never had such, only some effects got adjusted/fixed cosmetically along the way. mostly things which just been bugged in sense of wai anyway....
props to @havam for collecting it over years in the old times, there u go:
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1032247/a-history-of-sto-pvp
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline#/discussion/1126091/just-for-fun-s8-all-about-pvp-they-said
it had been discussed, all of it lol! u kinda can bet on this! there's a full subforum, filled up over years and now starving for years... coz it's dead jim. like in "really dead"!
they can't, they won't!!!........
kudos though to bringing it up to 7 pages. on a funny sidenote: i see people discussing the matter who i do remember to oppose the cause years ago lol..... but yeah, like adenauer said:"why i should be interested in my yesterdays nonsense?! nothing keeps me from learning new things" or something along such lines.....
njoy
I avoid the Egypt map on TF2 for that reason because it encourages the defending team to spawncamp. The first capture point is literally right outside the first spawn zone. So naturally the best defensive strategy is the same as any other capture point. Do not let the enemy near it. In this case you have them literally bottlenecked in their own spawn point.
And I like Attack/Defend maps. Especially Mann Manor. But Egypt? Nope.
not surprised no reply.
*Presumes to teach you about pvp
hehehe
ok champ.
When i play pvp my friendlist constantly increases, when i post here in attempt to help, i am systematically being attack for it. I am starting to think maybe after all you don't deserve better pvp experience, all you should get is the loading screen and this is fair.
Don't bother replying to me, i am loggin out of these forums.
Otherwise, they're all pretty reasonable. OP, you've been anything except reasonable. It seems the only 'discussion' you want is 'agree with me or git out.'
yay!
I'd have to agree with this. Other than one single post where the attitude was reeled in, its been all "agree or gtfo". That is not a discussion, that is, franky, ego stroking. And it was getting to the level of a certain Tangerine claiming to know more about subjects than the experts.
We all know who I speak of, so lets leave it at that.
Not considering our concerns, and even pretty much ending with "you deserve it" tells me "I don't want to make it fair or accessable. I just want to boost my K/D ratio". Hell... even those last couple posts, at least to me, came more across as "I'm better than you scrubs. Now PvP so I can kill you more". Pure epeen in action. If he really was honest about finding a way to make PvP more accessable, he would have actually listened to our concerns and had a civil discussion where we could all bounce ideas around. Not double down on his own and lash out against people who raise legit concerns.
*Strictly speaking, the balance issue is fixable, but it would take a lot of progamming hours and money without providing any revenue. Thus I say it is not fixable realistically speaking because Cryptic probably can't afford it.
While some people do play both, RP and ERP are entirely different genres and generally appeal to different player communities. It is just like how slash is a form of fanfic but not all fanfic is slash (in fact the vast majority of it isn't).
As for the PvP, one of the reasons it is not really a thing here is that Star Trek has the reputation for being an RP game (even though there is not a lot of that actually done here unless you count light solo RP when doing episode missions) which attracts RPers, and they tend to be lukewarm at most towards PvP.
Anything tied to a show or novel series attracts roleplayers, in fact that was something the Defiance game/TV show developers failed to realize (the game was a shooter and the company tried to discourage roleplaying) which is part of what made the experiment flop (though it has a lot of other problems too, like almost no coordination between the game and the show writing, and just poor writing in general) though the game itself was a good shooter.
Also STO has become a sort of haven for people who are sick to death of PvP from other games and just want to do casual (or sometimes not so casual) PvE.
But I often read cold, seaofsorrows, and westmetals advice and genuinely find what I understand of it to be useful.
I remember wast33 too and used to read him very seriously as well. In fact, when I first played STO—I was pvping way before I played my first TFO.
But we did not have gold equipment in 2012, right. Even a blue phaser build was viable for PVP then. A noob could win 30%~40% of the time without key binds nor even understanding the game mechanics. And it was fun.
My STO history is a little cloudy, but I remember the PVP crowed was very, very vocal about balance and power creeps. Most of the nerfing that occurred was directly related to those forum discussions.
Even developers and branflakes contributed to the forum then and I guess I am nostalgic about that time (although I was probably more hostile in my comments—if I was commenting).
I would be interested in viable PVP again, but I do not think it is realistic in the current meta. At least, I would be very hesitant to try PVP again. I see the DPS you kids pull nowadays—it is scary!
And although I do not think PVP incentives are necessary nor viable, I am also just concerned about the state of the forums. Whenever anyone comes up with a suggestion—they face a lot, a lot of pushback, right.
Arguments abound about the spaghetti code, or profitability, or possible FCT violation. And I get it, because it doesn’t seem viable and we have heard this argument many, many times.
The takeaway I got from wast was that none of these arguments are new. And certainly seaofsorrows and coldnapalm have been debating these ideas for the better part of a decade...
I don’t think our forum community is “toxic” as rattler said elsewhere—but it is certainly a “stubborn” community.
We have a lot of moderation and censorship already. I just wish we didn’t feel obligated to self-censor and reproduce ancient developer arguments as well.
The panopticon of the forum is more bitter than the moderation.
But ultimately it is a 10-year-old game—and although the 2012 game and community was quite different—maybe the ship has sailed on PVP and novel game systems...
My argument is starting to get as cloudy as my sense history, here. So I will leave that last beat as my thesis.
The panopticon is welcome to disagree.