Perhaps one particular poster in this thread would be willing to take the time to write up a few builds suitable for PvP in the shipyard for players to review with the same knowledge, excellence, and care you guys do?
Okay here is a relatively cheap one to use...it is for the Morrigu which should not be that hard to get... <snip> Of course there are ways to make this much better...but this will be good enough to start doing PvP and not feel completely out of your depths.
Cold, thanks for posting this. I was actually hinting at another poster who gave some rather vague tips "that will make everything better" to actually step up to the plate and post a couple sample builds in the shipyard that may or may not further his cause, but will take your advice over a bunch of hot air any time.
You helped somebody with their Morrigu in the shipyard quite a while ago but I didn't bookmark the thread which had a wealth of information specific to this ship and I'd be delighted if you'd share some of your expertise with this ship once again up in the shipyard.
I'll start a 'multi-role' Morrigu build thread this fall as everybody knows up here in Canada it's summer for a couple weeks with the rest of the year covered in 10 feet of ice and snow so you have to take advantage of the season and save the more frequent gaming until after the days get shorter.
Keep in mind that your millage may vary for each build.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
We need a system where the less-experienced, less-advantaged, whatever, player is not simply an inanimate punching bag for the more-experienced, more-advantaged player. Because otherwise you're going to continue to have the problem this thread was trying to solve: a lack of PVP players.
Because getting repeatedly and unavoidably killed and never being able to do anything but click "respawn" is not fun enough to keep people coming. The only thing the initial poster got wrong, in my opinion, was that their logic went from "lack of players" to "we can fix that with incentives and more locations!" instead of "why are people avoiding it?"
Very well put.
Spawn camping and/or repeated alpha vaping is really nothing worse than poor sportsmanship though.
There's even a PvP help video on youtube from a long term player I respect and who's handle many would recognize that encourages PvP players to "be reasonable" on players not running the Invincible starship trait.
Based on your experience one wonders whether these players really want to further their own cause and try and grow their player base or just drive players away
PvP guides are tricky matters, because a general guide will probably require much above what an average player can afford. So it can be hard to generalize a build, it all depends on what resources you have, what faction you play, what playstyle you enjoy.
Basically the first step you want to take is to make sure your defenses are ok for sustained fight, and this may take alot of trial and error until you adjust to the "right frequency" (I myself have super-economic glass-damage alt-character, it took me sometime to adjust it so it can fight without getting the insta-justice joke TRIBBLE, basically i was beaten over and over again till i came with the correct formula)
But something basic would be >>> decide your defenses first: * A speed boat that relies heavily on defense bonus stacks, zipping in and out * A cloak bomber, that relies heavily on stealth * A mix of both * A heavy hulkish cruiser that can endure punishment
Of the above options, the cruiser is probably the worst as the current meta of turbospeeding in pvp is very unfriendly and penalizing to slow-turning ships. I am myself an engineer on a cruiser as main and i can tell from experience, slow turning ships are handicapped by the current meta. For now i prefer to patiently wait and build it up, it is possible that better times will come.
When you build up your ability to survive, that is - a reliable style that can continuously fight on without getting shut down, your next step is you want to adjust your damage so it is enough that you can be threatening to others.
Obviously your success will be limited by your resources, nevertheless there are cheap economic solutions that can give veterans a run for their money, but you have to be creative. You can be creative if you study what other pvp players are doing.
When i came back 3-4 months ago, i was completely clueless on what the current meta is and how people are playing it, OmegaFighter on youtube's guides helped me to get the bigger picture. I had to watch his video 2-3 times while playing pvp till i got it (some things only make sense from experience). There are some good quality channels for you to watch to give you an idea what you are up against. If u watch twitch tv, check out "thepandalorians", he does regularly pvp.
@protoneous, i wrote a massive text wall, clicked "edit" to fix a typo and the entire thing disappeared, but i tell you what, if u are interested ill massage you my @handle and we will talk in game, how to improve your build for pvp.
This game has gone on for 10 years, and a look at the Zen store shows you that you can spend tens of thousands of dollars on this game.
That means that there are going to be tons of players who not only are incredibly far ahead of me in both experience and resources, but that no matter how long I play the game I will NEVER be able to compete with them, unless they were to drop out of the game for years while I grinded hard to catch up. That means that any PVP against such players is pointless and only serves to stroke the ego of the player who has devoted way more time and money to the game.
My playstyle is casual. I have lots of characters and flit from one to another regularly. I don't grind hard to develop any one character and as a result most of my characters are basically competent for things like PvE and story missions but are not stellar in any way. I still think a purple MK XII piece of gear is very good. I have not maxed reputation on any of my characters. And I am happy playing the game this way. It is fun or me. If I was grinding too much I would get sick of the game and drop out. But that means I will fall even farther behind the super-optimizers by playing my kind of game.
I appreciate the players that pay tons of money in this game as they support the company and that means the game can continue to develop. But I am not going to log in and do something that is no fun for me just so they can feel good about how awesome their build is. Which is why I do not do PvP.
As someone who rarely PvPs in STO and has PvPed more often in other games, I think the key is to not just throw all PvPers in the same bin. A lot of games have a system for rating a player's ability in PvP which helps a lot since the more you lose the weaker(in general) the opponents you fight. Thus you'll eventually end up fighting equals.
This game has gone on for 10 years, and a look at the Zen store shows you that you can spend tens of thousands of dollars on this game.
That means that there are going to be tons of players who not only are incredibly far ahead of me in both experience and resources, but that no matter how long I play the game I will NEVER be able to compete with them, unless they were to drop out of the game for years while I grinded hard to catch up. That means that any PVP against such players is pointless and only serves to stroke the ego of the player who has devoted way more time and money to the game.
My playstyle is casual. I have lots of characters and flit from one to another regularly. I don't grind hard to develop any one character and as a result most of my characters are basically competent for things like PvE and story missions but are not stellar in any way. I still think a purple MK XII piece of gear is very good. I have not maxed reputation on any of my characters. And I am happy playing the game this way. It is fun or me. If I was grinding too much I would get sick of the game and drop out. But that means I will fall even farther behind the super-optimizers by playing my kind of game.
I appreciate the players that pay tons of money in this game as they support the company and that means the game can continue to develop. But I am not going to log in and do something that is no fun for me just so they can feel good about how awesome their build is. Which is why I do not do PvP.
As someone who rarely PvPs in STO and has PvPed more often in other games, I think the key is to not just throw all PvPers in the same bin. A lot of games have a system for rating a player's ability in PvP which helps a lot since the more you lose the weaker(in general) the opponents you fight. Thus you'll eventually end up fighting equals.
Which would be great...if there was enough players on that would make say 10 queues at a given time. We can't even have 10 players to have ONE queue at a given time. Also this is a GvG PvP game...which makes ranking individuals MUCH harder to do.
Enh that's where the carrot comes in. Gotta add a bit of incentive.
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,533Community Moderator
Odds are anyone who's doing the PvP endeavor is getting together with friends and just gaming the system that way rather than going into a queue.
Honestly I just ignore that endeavor. Not worth the frustration.
Odds are anyone who's doing the PvP endeavor is getting together with friends and just gaming the system that way rather than going into a queue.
Honestly I just ignore that endeavor. Not worth the frustration.
But what if it was a 20-day event?
Win or lose you still get event progress. If there's a ranking system then the more you lose the easier the matches.
There are ways to fix PvP in this game...but that requires the PvP playerbase to be less toxic and the devs to be more competent at it. AKA not gonna happen.
Lolz, neither of those will happen.
The game is not balanced around PvP, thus PvP balanced is terrible. This is a known quantity, so deal with it.
Similarly, expecting people who are trying to kill you to be nice about it is a bit weird. This isn't Marquis of Queensbury rules. If someone successfully does a spacefold to your location and kills you with a Na'khul assassin blade strike, well, they won that fight. If you want them not do that next time, it's up to you to MAKE them not do that.
Similarly, expecting people who are trying to kill you to be nice about it is a bit weird. This isn't Marquis of Queensbury rules. If someone successfully does a spacefold to your location and kills you with a Na'khul assassin blade strike, well, they won that fight. If you want them not do that next time, it's up to you to MAKE them not do that.
Actually, a gentleman's agreement can be enforced, with a little bit of creativity.
at any given map factions are neither hostile nor friendly*
Lets say I.K.S pwnNOOB5000 warps in to a place where U.S.S Space Barbie is doing business, of the two have to get within 10km range, for a "hail" option to pop.
I.K.S pwnN00B5000 clicks the hails option, U.S.S Space Barbie gets 3 options: "On Screen" "Dismiss" "Ignore",
- On Screen opens communications,
- Dismiss disables to hailing
- Ignore prevents further hailing.
Upon opening communications, the following predetermined conversations appear to both players:
- Say something friendly (invite to team)
- Say something diplomatic (dismiss communications)
- Say something hostile (Ask for PvP)
+ option called scan ship
Choosing option 1, will prompt the other player to either dismiss or accept
Choosing option 2, will dismiss the communications
Choosing option 3, will will prompt the other player to either say something diplomatic (decline PvP) or say something hostile (engage PvP)
Choosing option 4 will scan the enemy ship, the scan will reveal: Hull strength points, non-tactical consoles and fore weapons. The hull points will also have a marker (normal) or (invincible) to indicate whether the player have the trait.
It doesn't get any more gentleman and civilized then that.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,533Community Moderator
You'd have to find some way to keep someone from Spamming it. Don't forget that we also have to consider the Trolls out there who will find any way to abuse a system for their own personal enjoyment at the expense of others. Remember the Disco Balls and how they used to be usable anywhere?
Opt out --> default is set to opt out --> displays the player's flag of allegiance in the buff bar surrounded by a peaceful colored border embroidered with little white doves. Hovering your mouse over this flag will play comforting classical music as an added audible indicator.
Opt in --> must go into settings to turn on --> when you click on yes the system will respond with "are you sure you want to PvP ?" and play the red alert siren for several seconds to ensure safety --> displays the Jolly Roger flag in the buff bar that is colored black with a white skull and crossbones and angry red border. Hovering your mouse over this flag will play aggressive hard rock music as an added audible indicator.
Choosing option 4 will scan the enemy ship, the scan will reveal: Hull strength points, non-tactical consoles and fore weapons. The hull points will also have a marker (normal) or (invincible) to indicate whether the player have the trait.
Why not tactical consoles and aft weapons as well?
Opt out --> default is set to opt out --> displays the player's flag of allegiance in the buff bar surrounded by a peaceful colored border embroidered with little white doves. Hovering your mouse over this flag will play comforting classical music as an added audible indicator.
Opt in --> must go into settings to turn on --> when you click on yes the system will respond with "are you sure you want to PvP ?" and play the red alert siren for several seconds to ensure safety --> displays the Jolly Roger flag in the buff bar that is colored black with a white skull and crossbones and angry red border. Hovering your mouse over this flag will play aggressive hard rock music as an added audible indicator.
Thoughts?
I don't think you necessarily need a flag (or an audible effect) for the default state.
Instead of "aggressive hard rock music" I would instead suggest the red alert tone (keeping within theme) or something from the Pirates of the Caribbean film series soundtrack.
Great idea in having things remain normal for the default state. Why change things at all if you're just playing the game as you would usually ?
That is the point, if i am fully aware of your entire strategy, there is zero element of surprise, and that is not very fair. The basic knowledge is to give you an idea, not to entirely reveal what the other guy is up to.
For example, if you spot that someone is using very expensive non tactical consoles, it is a good indication he have far more gear than you.
That is the point, if i am fully aware of your entire strategy, there is zero element of surprise, and that is not very fair. The basic knowledge is to give you an idea, not to entirely reveal what the other guy is up to.
For example, if you spot that someone is using very expensive non tactical consoles, it is a good indication he have far more gear than you.
I think you seem to be missing the point entirely. Let me explain with an example.
You (a tactical captain I presume) and me (a hardcore science captain) engage in pvp. According to your "scan" rules, you get to see the majority of my damage enhancing consoles, so you can determine what my likely strategy is and formulate a counter strategy before the match begins by swapping traits etc. I on the other hand do not get to see your damage enhancing consoles or your aft weapons. Are you going to use beams? cannons? torps? mines? I have no clue what your strategy, so I have to stick with my set up and go into the match blind. I am at a huge disadvantage simply because I am sci and your are tac.
@garaffe, it is something i came up quickly with, the idea behind is to tell whether someone is seasoned pvp player or a casual, so a casual player who is afraid of engaging pvp sharks can then decline the fight.
The engineering and science consoles are usually where your expensive "clicks" are stored, while the tactical slots are usually for general-available to all consoles are, they only reveal strategy.
Keep in mind that this system idea is intended to protect casuals from bad experience, i personally don't care one bit what you are wearing, if i want to pvp i simply go into karet and shoot it out without the need of a baby-sitting system protecting me from bad experience.
@westmetals
When i see a science ship in pvp, i have a good idea what he is set for, i dont need the scan.
Comments
Cold, thanks for posting this. I was actually hinting at another poster who gave some rather vague tips "that will make everything better" to actually step up to the plate and post a couple sample builds in the shipyard that may or may not further his cause, but will take your advice over a bunch of hot air any time.
You helped somebody with their Morrigu in the shipyard quite a while ago but I didn't bookmark the thread which had a wealth of information specific to this ship and I'd be delighted if you'd share some of your expertise with this ship once again up in the shipyard.
I'll start a 'multi-role' Morrigu build thread this fall as everybody knows up here in Canada it's summer for a couple weeks with the rest of the year covered in 10 feet of ice and snow
Very well put.
Spawn camping and/or repeated alpha vaping is really nothing worse than poor sportsmanship though.
There's even a PvP help video on youtube from a long term player I respect and who's handle many would recognize that encourages PvP players to "be reasonable" on players not running the Invincible starship trait.
Based on your experience one wonders whether these players really want to further their own cause and try and grow their player base or just drive players away
PvP guides are tricky matters, because a general guide will probably require much above what an average player can afford. So it can be hard to generalize a build, it all depends on what resources you have, what faction you play, what playstyle you enjoy.
Basically the first step you want to take is to make sure your defenses are ok for sustained fight, and this may take alot of trial and error until you adjust to the "right frequency"
(I myself have super-economic glass-damage alt-character, it took me sometime to adjust it so it can fight without getting the insta-justice joke TRIBBLE, basically i was beaten over and over again till i came with the correct formula)
But something basic would be >>> decide your defenses first:
* A speed boat that relies heavily on defense bonus stacks, zipping in and out
* A cloak bomber, that relies heavily on stealth
* A mix of both
* A heavy hulkish cruiser that can endure punishment
Of the above options, the cruiser is probably the worst as the current meta of turbospeeding in pvp is very unfriendly and penalizing to slow-turning ships. I am myself an engineer on a cruiser as main and i can tell from experience, slow turning ships are handicapped by the current meta. For now i prefer to patiently wait and build it up, it is possible that better times will come.
When you build up your ability to survive, that is - a reliable style that can continuously fight on without getting shut down, your next step is you want to adjust your damage so it is enough that you can be threatening to others.
Obviously your success will be limited by your resources, nevertheless there are cheap economic solutions that can give veterans a run for their money, but you have to be creative. You can be creative if you study what other pvp players are doing.
When i came back 3-4 months ago, i was completely clueless on what the current meta is and how people are playing it, OmegaFighter on youtube's guides helped me to get the bigger picture. I had to watch his video 2-3 times while playing pvp till i got it (some things only make sense from experience). There are some good quality channels for you to watch to give you an idea what you are up against. If u watch twitch tv, check out "thepandalorians", he does regularly pvp.
My character Tsin'xing
My character Tsin'xing
Honestly I just ignore that endeavor. Not worth the frustration.
Win or lose you still get event progress. If there's a ranking system then the more you lose the easier the matches. Lolz, neither of those will happen.
The game is not balanced around PvP, thus PvP balanced is terrible. This is a known quantity, so deal with it.
Similarly, expecting people who are trying to kill you to be nice about it is a bit weird. This isn't Marquis of Queensbury rules. If someone successfully does a spacefold to your location and kills you with a Na'khul assassin blade strike, well, they won that fight. If you want them not do that next time, it's up to you to MAKE them not do that.
My character Tsin'xing
Actually, a gentleman's agreement can be enforced, with a little bit of creativity.
at any given map factions are neither hostile nor friendly*
Lets say I.K.S pwnNOOB5000 warps in to a place where U.S.S Space Barbie is doing business, of the two have to get within 10km range, for a "hail" option to pop.
I.K.S pwnN00B5000 clicks the hails option, U.S.S Space Barbie gets 3 options: "On Screen" "Dismiss" "Ignore",
- On Screen opens communications,
- Dismiss disables to hailing
- Ignore prevents further hailing.
Upon opening communications, the following predetermined conversations appear to both players:
- Say something friendly (invite to team)
- Say something diplomatic (dismiss communications)
- Say something hostile (Ask for PvP)
+ option called scan ship
Choosing option 1, will prompt the other player to either dismiss or accept
Choosing option 2, will dismiss the communications
Choosing option 3, will will prompt the other player to either say something diplomatic (decline PvP) or say something hostile (engage PvP)
Choosing option 4 will scan the enemy ship, the scan will reveal: Hull strength points, non-tactical consoles and fore weapons. The hull points will also have a marker (normal) or (invincible) to indicate whether the player have the trait.
It doesn't get any more gentleman and civilized then that.
Opt out --> default is set to opt out --> displays the player's flag of allegiance in the buff bar surrounded by a peaceful colored border embroidered with little white doves. Hovering your mouse over this flag will play comforting classical music as an added audible indicator.
Opt in --> must go into settings to turn on --> when you click on yes the system will respond with "are you sure you want to PvP ?" and play the red alert siren for several seconds to ensure safety --> displays the Jolly Roger flag in the buff bar that is colored black with a white skull and crossbones and angry red border. Hovering your mouse over this flag will play aggressive hard rock music as an added audible indicator.
Thoughts?
Great idea in having things remain normal for the default state. Why change things at all if you're just playing the game as you would usually ?
> (Quote)
> Why not tactical consoles and aft weapons as well?
You dont want give in too much, just basic awareness of what u r up against.
That is the point, if i am fully aware of your entire strategy, there is zero element of surprise, and that is not very fair. The basic knowledge is to give you an idea, not to entirely reveal what the other guy is up to.
For example, if you spot that someone is using very expensive non tactical consoles, it is a good indication he have far more gear than you.
I think you seem to be missing the point entirely. Let me explain with an example.
You (a tactical captain I presume) and me (a hardcore science captain) engage in pvp. According to your "scan" rules, you get to see the majority of my damage enhancing consoles, so you can determine what my likely strategy is and formulate a counter strategy before the match begins by swapping traits etc. I on the other hand do not get to see your damage enhancing consoles or your aft weapons. Are you going to use beams? cannons? torps? mines? I have no clue what your strategy, so I have to stick with my set up and go into the match blind. I am at a huge disadvantage simply because I am sci and your are tac.
Either show everything, or show nothing.
The engineering and science consoles are usually where your expensive "clicks" are stored, while the tactical slots are usually for general-available to all consoles are, they only reveal strategy.
Keep in mind that this system idea is intended to protect casuals from bad experience, i personally don't care one bit what you are wearing, if i want to pvp i simply go into karet and shoot it out without the need of a baby-sitting system protecting me from bad experience.
@westmetals
When i see a science ship in pvp, i have a good idea what he is set for, i dont need the scan.