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Incentive PVP

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  • darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 3,698 Community Moderator
    edited July 2020
    spiritborn wrote: »
    protoneous wrote: »
    I don't mind the concept of pvp and if that's what folks like to play then more power to them, just leave me out of it unless I decide to queue for it myself. far as I'm concerned forced pvp is a cancer that needs to be eradicated from online gaming today.

    I can tell you right now, most folks I have seen in this game have no desire for pvp at all. The day they try to push pvp on the general populace of the game is the day I will quit this game for good. If I want pvp I will go play something like CoD or another random game.

    I don't understanding the context of the concern of "forced" PvP as it relates to STO.

    Everything in STO is optional, as it should be, so players can do things they like to do.

    One reason I'm scratching my head is that I can't see this happening in STO ever (or at least not in the next 1000 years).

    I just can't see a game that's done its best to replicate the Star Trek experience for over a decade and doesn't even necessarily encourage consensual PvP ever forcing it on players against their will.

    Perhaps as a more a generalized online gaming industry commentary it makes sense but the whole issue of forced PvP seems rather 'not applicable' with respect to STO to me at least.

    I think he means something like WoW world PvP between TBC and late Cata or so (IIRC), where you could be forced into PvP activities outside your will attacking a PvP tagged player by accident would tag your for PvP and there was max level players who would hover about quest mobs lower level players would need for PvE quests so that at some point the lower level player would hit them get tagged and slaughtered in short order. It was later fixed so that attacking a player with a PvP tag would just say "invalid target" when you didn't have your PvP tag on and you'd have to intentionally activate the tag to hit them.

    Also it's possible he means that if the rewards from the PvP system were good enough he would feel like it was mandatory content.

    Although in my previous reply above I was speaking more towards the arguments people make in favor of pvp revamps and trying to get others on board with it, you pretty much hit the nail on the head.

    I absolutely despise the forced "world pvp" type of junk that World of Warcraft had for a number of years and thought it was a cancer that needed to be eradicated. It was a toxic atmosphere where higher level players would always camp lower level players and shut down their ability to play the game. Essentially it allowed another person to force their desired style of gameplay on you and made it a miserable experience for all. It allowed folks to play gatekeeper as to who got to experience certain bits of content based on whether they camped the quest givers or not, killed the lowbie player or not, and did nothing but bring out the worst in people. They could go into a battleground or arena and try their hand with players their own level and such, but they would never do that. They would camp lower level players who had a snowball's chance in Gre'thor of actually doing anything about it and call it "pvp". I'm glad that cancerous blight on gaming was eventually purged from WoW's servers and now can only happen if folks deliberately flag for pvp. I'm of the mind that no one player should ever be allowed to force their style of play on another person. The ability of other people to play a game should not be hampered because one guy wants to be a tool.

    Also for the rewards, that was another gripe I had with the previous WoW expac is they basically said to their playerbase "turn on your pvp flags or eat a 25% experience nerf on everything." Their way of saying "pvp or else." Folks want to pvp fine. They want to give them some exclusives for doing pvp that's fine. Just leave me and everyone else like me out of it. I should not be punished because I refuse to play a game mode I don't like.
    "Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations

    Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 4,248 Arc User
    spiritborn wrote: »
    protoneous wrote: »
    I don't mind the concept of pvp and if that's what folks like to play then more power to them, just leave me out of it unless I decide to queue for it myself. far as I'm concerned forced pvp is a cancer that needs to be eradicated from online gaming today.

    I can tell you right now, most folks I have seen in this game have no desire for pvp at all. The day they try to push pvp on the general populace of the game is the day I will quit this game for good. If I want pvp I will go play something like CoD or another random game.

    I don't understanding the context of the concern of "forced" PvP as it relates to STO.

    Everything in STO is optional, as it should be, so players can do things they like to do.

    One reason I'm scratching my head is that I can't see this happening in STO ever (or at least not in the next 1000 years).

    I just can't see a game that's done its best to replicate the Star Trek experience for over a decade and doesn't even necessarily encourage consensual PvP ever forcing it on players against their will.

    Perhaps as a more a generalized online gaming industry commentary it makes sense but the whole issue of forced PvP seems rather 'not applicable' with respect to STO to me at least.

    I think he means something like WoW world PvP between TBC and late Cata or so (IIRC), where you could be forced into PvP activities outside your will attacking a PvP tagged player by accident would tag your for PvP and there was max level players who would hover about quest mobs lower level players would need for PvE quests so that at some point the lower level player would hit them get tagged and slaughtered in short order. It was later fixed so that attacking a player with a PvP tag would just say "invalid target" when you didn't have your PvP tag on and you'd have to intentionally activate the tag to hit them.

    Also it's possible he means that if the rewards from the PvP system were good enough he would feel like it was mandatory content.

    Although in my previous reply above I was speaking more towards the arguments people make in favor of pvp revamps and trying to get others on board with it, you pretty much hit the nail on the head.

    I absolutely despise the forced "world pvp" type of junk that World of Warcraft had for a number of years and thought it was a cancer that needed to be eradicated. It was a toxic atmosphere where higher level players would always camp lower level players and shut down their ability to play the game. Essentially it allowed another person to force their desired style of gameplay on you and made it a miserable experience for all. It allowed folks to play gatekeeper as to who got to experience certain bits of content based on whether they camped the quest givers or not, killed the lowbie player or not, and did nothing but bring out the worst in people. They could go into a battleground or arena and try their hand with players their own level and such, but they would never do that. They would camp lower level players who had a snowball's chance in Gre'thor of actually doing anything about it and call it "pvp". I'm glad that cancerous blight on gaming was eventually purged from WoW's servers and now can only happen if folks deliberately flag for pvp. I'm of the mind that no one player should ever be allowed to force their style of play on another person. The ability of other people to play a game should not be hampered because one guy wants to be a tool.
    For me the worst thing about those people was that they fled in blind panic if anyone with even a remote chance of beating them came near. It wasn't only that they stalked lowbies but their reaction to actual threats showed they were only after ruining the game for others, I would never want that in STO.

    I gringe everytimes I see some people in the forums asking for a PvP rewamp and practically drooling over the possibility of being able to troll newbies out of the game by constantly stalking them.

    I was a victim of such trolling and I can say it wasn't fun on my end and a game that's only fun for a small subset isn't gonna last long.
  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 2,951 Arc User
    protoneous wrote: »
    I don't understanding the context of the concern of "forced" PvP as it relates to STO.

    Everything in STO is optional, as it should be, so players can do things they like to do.

    One reason I'm scratching my head is that I can't see this happening in STO ever (or at least not in the next 1000 years).

    I just can't see a game that's done its best to replicate the Star Trek experience for over a decade and doesn't even necessarily encourage consensual PvP ever forcing it on players against their will.

    Perhaps as a more a generalized online gaming industry commentary it makes sense but the whole issue of forced PvP seems rather 'not applicable' with respect to STO to me at least.

    I was making a generalized statement since the OP mentioned getting others to participate in it. Long as I'm not forced to see it or participate in it, or can ignore it completely unless I decide to participate in it, then I'm cool with it. I never said he specifically wanted to force it on folks.

    Aside from that it's the same song and dance I've seen a thousand times. Folks that like pvp come on and claim that folks like myself who have no interest in pvp only hate it because we don't have specialized pvp builds and die super fast. They say if we would just play pvp a little bit with them we would grow to like it. If we would play it with them and participate in the new super awesome events they've come up with, the issues that have plagued pvp for so long in this game will magically disappear and everything will be all peachy. Nothing against the OP but his is just the latest form of such a thread. When I see threads like this that pop up, they always strike me as that one person that is determined to get the person in their group to drink alcohol, go see that certain movie, or to that certain party, that's said no repeatedly. They're welcome to think whatever they want about the person who's said no and are entitled to their opinions. However most of the arguments I see are some variation of 3 things.

    1: You just don't like it because you haven't played it enough
    2: You just don't like it because you get beaten easily
    3: If you would just play this super cool new event I made up you'll like it this time, even though all those other issues are still there.

    Every thread like it typically has some form of all 3 of those arguments that never address the issues plaguing pvp balance. It's always some type of argument that boils down to a type of "no true Scotsman" fallacy. "No one true STO player hates pvp, they just don't like losing." There's always some arbitrary reason they think they need to cure the playerbase from and if we would just do it their way we'll suddenly be like them and enjoy it. They can't accept the fact that there are some people out there who simply do not like pvp and don't want to do pvp with them. I know for me personally I've had enough of the pvp scene to last me a lifetime. I find more often than not it brings out the worst in people.

    It seemed like you were referring to forced PvP in STO in your previous post but that part is missing. This here definitely expands upon that.

    When I read this thread I'm not necessarily reading as much into it as yourself. Peeps here seem to have been quite polite and well spoken about a part of the game they enjoy or used to enjoy and have even thrown in a little bit of history.

    I'm unsure if it should be the poster in these sort of threads that should be addressing the issues plaguing PvP balance but that is water under the bridge.

    It's consensual and not forced, so I take a live and let live approach similar to somebody who may be promoting other parts of the game they're passionate about even though in this case the ship has likely sailed quite some time ago.

    I think that when a game no longer provides for one's passion it can bring out some frustrations in people, even in PvE.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    I was able to play WoW for a bit years ago. Had fun with just exploring the world on my Draenei Paladin.
    Accidentally aggro'd a Hoard NPC just by getting too close and got flagged for PvP. Max Level Hunter Tauren just happened to be in the area, saw a flagged Alliance, and gave chase, despite seeing the level difference.
    Thank The Warden (FF14 reference here) I was a Ret Pally and had a speed boost on mounts and was able to stay JUST out of range of the hunter until the flag timer ran down. Although he chased me into a high level zone where I was afraid to leave the road. The second the timer ran out I just turned and waved. He cried.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    westmetals wrote: »
    PVP is so horribly broken that no amount of inventive will get most players involved. It needs to be fixed, not incentivized.

    And by that I mean... the last time I was in one of those 5v5 PVP queues? I was flying a very tricked out PVE build.... every single slot on the ship filled with gold mk 15 gear, typematched weapons, the works. I got alpha vaped and spawncamped. Did a total of 24k damage (according to the end of queue scoreboard) while all the other players were at half a million or more. Because I was never alive long enough to even fire one full cycle of weapons.

    Then I got picked on (via PMs) by one of the people on my OWN team for half an hour afterward because, supposedly, I caused us to lose by having a "trash rainbow" build and needed to "learn shipbuilding"... which they then proceeded to spam me with links to shipbuilding guides (that I was already in compliance with and one of which I wrote).

    I then posted here in the forums for advice and the vast majority of the responses were either "git gud" or suggesting using traits from lockbox ships, etc, which were far, far beyond my budget (and that is coming from someone who has bought every CStore ship and has access to a maxed fleet).

    And this folks, is why a lot of us PvEers do not like PvP. Because people want to stroke their epeens and assume you're absolute trash and rip you a new one without knowing SQUAT about your build or the circumstances. "It is obviously because you are a bad player and must be shamed for failing the team and causing the team to fail. It is all YOUR fault. Git gud scrub! YOU FAIL! Delete your character!"

    I hate that kind of attitude. Not asking if anyone wants help to improve or actually communicate. Its straight to attacks and blame game as if the world just ended because someone didn't even have a CHANCE to blink despite having a good build. It was clearly the other team who caused it, but was it because they were just that good? NO! Its because obviously someone on the losing team failed the team and must be taught a lesson!
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 2,951 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    westmetals wrote: »
    PVP is so horribly broken that no amount of inventive will get most players involved. It needs to be fixed, not incentivized.

    And by that I mean... the last time I was in one of those 5v5 PVP queues? I was flying a very tricked out PVE build.... every single slot on the ship filled with gold mk 15 gear, typematched weapons, the works. I got alpha vaped and spawncamped. Did a total of 24k damage (according to the end of queue scoreboard) while all the other players were at half a million or more. Because I was never alive long enough to even fire one full cycle of weapons.

    Then I got picked on (via PMs) by one of the people on my OWN team for half an hour afterward because, supposedly, I caused us to lose by having a "trash rainbow" build and needed to "learn shipbuilding"... which they then proceeded to spam me with links to shipbuilding guides (that I was already in compliance with and one of which I wrote).

    I then posted here in the forums for advice and the vast majority of the responses were either "git gud" or suggesting using traits from lockbox ships, etc, which were far, far beyond my budget (and that is coming from someone who has bought every CStore ship and has access to a maxed fleet).

    And this folks, is why a lot of us PvEers do not like PvP. Because people want to stroke their epeens and assume you're absolute trash and rip you a new one without knowing SQUAT about your build or the circumstances. "It is obviously because you are a bad player and must be shamed for failing the team and causing the team to fail. It is all YOUR fault. Git gud scrub! YOU FAIL! Delete your character!"

    I hate that kind of attitude. Not asking if anyone wants help to improve or actually communicate. Its straight to attacks and blame game as if the world just ended because someone didn't even have a CHANCE to blink despite having a good build. It was clearly the other team who caused it, but was it because they were just that good? NO! Its because obviously someone on the losing team failed the team and must be taught a lesson!

    I've seen some of the attitudes described above in some of the more advanced PvE queues at least back in the day so it's not like that crowd is perfect either.

    Luckily for all though PvP in Star Trek Online is entirely consensual and limited to a very small number of maps. I doubt there's really any need for a player to get overly concerned about it as it certainly won't be forced on you.

    Having the freedom of choice to do things you like to do in Star Trek Online is one of the game's strengths.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    Pretty sure my Temporal Connie would still pop in two seconds against one of those vape builds. And I'm running a gold plated mk 15 phaser build with the Kobali set for extra heals.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 2,951 Arc User
    The choice to find out or not is entirely optional... that's the nice part about this game.
  • grendelthewise#0990 grendelthewise Member Posts: 640 Arc User
    If you want PVP goto the Ker'rat System near Drozana.
    Fleet Admiral of the U.S.S. ATTILA KHAN-CDA (NX-921911).
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 4,248 Arc User
    Something I liked about instanced PvP in WoW was that spawn camping is a lot harder, due typically both sides having at least 1 semi-safe spawn room so you wouldn't be bursted down while still in a loading screen.

    Honestly this wouldn't be that hard to justify from a lore point of view in STO either have a fortified base with shields that allow only one side to enter as you initial/main spawn room, now I dunno how hard that would be to program but lorewise it should work. If that main room had enough exits you'd avoid the "broken nose" issue somewhat as you'd respawn in a safe space (pardon the pun) and the enemy wouldn't know where you'd exit. Add some static AI controlled defenses on those spawn points and it should reduce spawn point camping to a manageable level.
  • vanhyovanhyo Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    edited July 2020
    I think that most of us just don't want to make the effort to play PVP period.

    STO is a very casual game where Space Barbie is the real endgame for many (most?) of us. Many people don't come here for deep tactical gameplay, they come here to fly the ships from their favorite shows and be Captain Awesome while they pew pew pew the incompetent bad guys.

    People complain about learning any TFO mechanics beyond spacebar. Those people don't want to learn how to counter debuffs and inflict debuffs on an intelligent human player. That would require effort, and STO isn't a Dark Souls game.

    If most people are space barbie casuals then most space barbie casuals will meet other space barbie casuals, so they will be enjoying their casual thing on a casual levels, with very few supermans interrupting it from time to time.

    @cesitar257

    Incentive to pvp is good idea, but it has to be done cleverly, a sudden overdose of EC for all players will not increase the goods that are offered in the exchange, so you will not get your expensive coveted thing that you wanted because if everyone is earning that much money, then the price will rise and you will basically destroy the economy because other ways of gaining EC will become too insignificant compared to PvP....

    I was chatting with other dudes in Ker'rat and they gave me the link here to share something we have been talking about:

    1.Convert all Alpha and Beta Patrol missions into shared PvP zones like Ker'rat (delta and gamma will be too much of an annoyance, also my memory tells me delta patrols have lag problems)

    2. Remove patrols from the looking for group thing, it is a game killer. For patrols to really feel like patrols you have to fly there manually, it is also relaxing when you move from one system to another instead of queing from some dull place.

    3. Add a repeatable endeavour called "finish a patrol mission" It only requires you to be in the patrol mission when it finishes, for example, you are in japori - someone kills the waves and you are only watching, the patrol zone self-resets like ker'rat and you get the credit for finishing it. The repeatable endevours rewards a simple 1000 exp points to your perk progresss, nothing else.
    (edit: it has to send you to a specific random patrol, not one of your choosing)

    Conclusion - since you will like to build up your perks, here is the chance to "farm them up", the EXP gain is low but the key here is REPEATABLE. You will have to travel from system to system and finish patrol missions, sometimes you will meet other players from enemy faction, other times not. Sometimes they will attack you, other times not. If you are too chicken, you may just cloak and hide till others finish the patrol so you may gain the credit. Or just build a zombie that doesnt die. The possibilities are many, since the goal is to farm endeavour it is possible that most people will want to just focus on that and ignore the enemy player lurking around.

    The overall idea is the MMO experience, where you explore the world, meet other people and all sort unplanned things happen while you build up your ingame character.
  • vanhyovanhyo Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    edited July 2020
    Some comments mention "balance" as the reason pvp is in a bad shape. I completely disagree, infact if you ask 100 players what balance should be, they will all give their own specific answer to it and usually revolves around "buff me" and "nerf the other guy" and "so unfair lol"

    The difference between good pvp game, bad pvp game and a terrible pvp game is that a good pvp game is played by many and many complain about balance, a bad pvp game is played by few and few complain about balance and in a terrible game is played by nobody so there are no complains. So the key here is not "how to balance the game" but how entertaining/time consuming it is.
  • cesitar257cesitar257 Member Posts: 49 Arc User
    vanhyo wrote: »
    I think that most of us just don't want to make the effort to play PVP period.

    STO is a very casual game where Space Barbie is the real endgame for many (most?) of us. Many people don't come here for deep tactical gameplay, they come here to fly the ships from their favorite shows and be Captain Awesome while they pew pew pew the incompetent bad guys.

    People complain about learning any TFO mechanics beyond spacebar. Those people don't want to learn how to counter debuffs and inflict debuffs on an intelligent human player. That would require effort, and STO isn't a Dark Souls game.

    If most people are space barbie casuals then most space barbie casuals will meet other space barbie casuals, so they will be enjoying their casual thing on a casual levels, with very few supermans interrupting it from time to time.

    @cesitar257

    Incentive to pvp is good idea, but it has to be done cleverly, a sudden overdose of EC for all players will not increase the goods that are offered in the exchange, so you will not get your expensive coveted thing that you wanted because if everyone is earning that much money, then the price will rise and you will basically destroy the economy because other ways of gaining EC will become too insignificant compared to PvP....

    I was chatting with other dudes in Ker'rat and they gave me the link here to share something we have been talking about:

    1.Convert all Alpha and Beta Patrol missions into shared PvP zones like Ker'rat (delta and gamma will be too much of an annoyance, also my memory tells me delta patrols have lag problems)

    2. Remove patrols from the looking for group thing, it is a game killer. For patrols to really feel like patrols you have to fly there manually, it is also relaxing when you move from one system to another instead of queing from some dull place.

    3. Add a repeatable endeavour called "finish a patrol mission" It only requires you to be in the patrol mission when it finishes, for example, you are in japori - someone kills the waves and you are only watching, the patrol zone self-resets like ker'rat and you get the credit for finishing it. The repeatable endevours rewards a simple 1000 exp points to your perk progresss, nothing else.
    (edit: it has to send you to a specific random patrol, not one of your choosing)

    Conclusion - since you will like to build up your perks, here is the chance to "farm them up", the EXP gain is low but the key here is REPEATABLE. You will have to travel from system to system and finish patrol missions, sometimes you will meet other players from enemy faction, other times not. Sometimes they will attack you, other times not. If you are too chicken, you may just cloak and hide till others finish the patrol so you may gain the credit. Or just build a zombie that doesnt die. The possibilities are many, since the goal is to farm endeavour it is possible that most people will want to just focus on that and ignore the enemy player lurking around.

    The overall idea is the MMO experience, where you explore the world, meet other people and all sort unplanned things happen while you build up your ingame character.


    Thanks for participating, I think they are very good ideas :)
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    vanhyo wrote: »
    Incentive to pvp is good idea, but it has to be done cleverly, a sudden overdose of EC for all players will not increase the goods that are offered in the exchange, so you will not get your expensive coveted thing that you wanted because if everyone is earning that much money, then the price will rise and you will basically destroy the economy because other ways of gaining EC will become too insignificant compared to PvP....

    I was chatting with other dudes in Ker'rat and they gave me the link here to share something we have been talking about:

    1.Convert all Alpha and Beta Patrol missions into shared PvP zones like Ker'rat (delta and gamma will be too much of an annoyance, also my memory tells me delta patrols have lag problems)

    2. Remove patrols from the looking for group thing, it is a game killer. For patrols to really feel like patrols you have to fly there manually, it is also relaxing when you move from one system to another instead of queing from some dull place.

    3. Add a repeatable endeavour called "finish a patrol mission" It only requires you to be in the patrol mission when it finishes, for example, you are in japori - someone kills the waves and you are only watching, the patrol zone self-resets like ker'rat and you get the credit for finishing it. The repeatable endevours rewards a simple 1000 exp points to your perk progresss, nothing else.
    (edit: it has to send you to a specific random patrol, not one of your choosing)

    Conclusion - since you will like to build up your perks, here is the chance to "farm them up", the EXP gain is low but the key here is REPEATABLE. You will have to travel from system to system and finish patrol missions, sometimes you will meet other players from enemy faction, other times not. Sometimes they will attack you, other times not. If you are too chicken, you may just cloak and hide till others finish the patrol so you may gain the credit. Or just build a zombie that doesnt die. The possibilities are many, since the goal is to farm endeavour it is possible that most people will want to just focus on that and ignore the enemy player lurking around.

    The overall idea is the MMO experience, where you explore the world, meet other people and all sort unplanned things happen while you build up your ingame character.

    I don't honestly like the idea of opening up the patrols to be PvP zones. Or even open PvE where anyone can join.
    I had a friend who was trying to get the OLD Crystalline Entity. Back then Torps were a no-no against it because it would HEAL. A bunch of people were hanging back cheering my friend on because they were finally going to be able to get an elusive accolade, my friend had the HP down almost to dead, then a random showed up and torp spread it back to full health.

    So it would be pretty easy to troll in an open zone.

    And another issue is that some people use those patrols to help test their builds against various enemies. They don't need someone swooping in and killing everything in sight or attacking them. And then there's the issue of wanting to go in to get marks, only to come into a complete instance and have to wait out a timer.

    I just don't see any benefit to changing how patrols are now to try and tie it into PvP by turning them into Ker'rat clones.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • echattyechatty Member Posts: 5,913 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    vanhyo wrote: »
    Incentive to pvp is good idea, but it has to be done cleverly, a sudden overdose of EC for all players will not increase the goods that are offered in the exchange, so you will not get your expensive coveted thing that you wanted because if everyone is earning that much money, then the price will rise and you will basically destroy the economy because other ways of gaining EC will become too insignificant compared to PvP....

    I was chatting with other dudes in Ker'rat and they gave me the link here to share something we have been talking about:

    1.Convert all Alpha and Beta Patrol missions into shared PvP zones like Ker'rat (delta and gamma will be too much of an annoyance, also my memory tells me delta patrols have lag problems)

    2. Remove patrols from the looking for group thing, it is a game killer. For patrols to really feel like patrols you have to fly there manually, it is also relaxing when you move from one system to another instead of queing from some dull place.

    3. Add a repeatable endeavour called "finish a patrol mission" It only requires you to be in the patrol mission when it finishes, for example, you are in japori - someone kills the waves and you are only watching, the patrol zone self-resets like ker'rat and you get the credit for finishing it. The repeatable endevours rewards a simple 1000 exp points to your perk progresss, nothing else.
    (edit: it has to send you to a specific random patrol, not one of your choosing)

    Conclusion - since you will like to build up your perks, here is the chance to "farm them up", the EXP gain is low but the key here is REPEATABLE. You will have to travel from system to system and finish patrol missions, sometimes you will meet other players from enemy faction, other times not. Sometimes they will attack you, other times not. If you are too chicken, you may just cloak and hide till others finish the patrol so you may gain the credit. Or just build a zombie that doesnt die. The possibilities are many, since the goal is to farm endeavour it is possible that most people will want to just focus on that and ignore the enemy player lurking around.

    The overall idea is the MMO experience, where you explore the world, meet other people and all sort unplanned things happen while you build up your ingame character.

    I don't honestly like the idea of opening up the patrols to be PvP zones. Or even open PvE where anyone can join.
    I had a friend who was trying to get the OLD Crystalline Entity. Back then Torps were a no-no against it because it would HEAL. A bunch of people were hanging back cheering my friend on because they were finally going to be able to get an elusive accolade, my friend had the HP down almost to dead, then a random showed up and torp spread it back to full health.

    So it would be pretty easy to troll in an open zone.

    And another issue is that some people use those patrols to help test their builds against various enemies. They don't need someone swooping in and killing everything in sight or attacking them. And then there's the issue of wanting to go in to get marks, only to come into a complete instance and have to wait out a timer.

    I just don't see any benefit to changing how patrols are now to try and tie it into PvP by turning them into Ker'rat clones.

    I wholeheartedly agree with everything here.
    Now a LTS and loving it.
    Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
    I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything. :D
  • vanhyovanhyo Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    edited July 2020
    rattler2 wrote: »
    I don't honestly like the idea of opening up the patrols to be PvP zones. Or even open PvE where anyone can join.
    I had a friend who was trying to get the OLD Crystalline Entity. Back then Torps were a no-no against it because it would HEAL. A bunch of people were hanging back cheering my friend on because they were finally going to be able to get an elusive accolade, my friend had the HP down almost to dead, then a random showed up and torp spread it back to full health.

    So it would be pretty easy to troll in an open zone.

    And another issue is that some people use those patrols to help test their builds against various enemies. They don't need someone swooping in and killing everything in sight or attacking them. And then there's the issue of wanting to go in to get marks, only to come into a complete instance and have to wait out a timer.

    I just don't see any benefit to changing how patrols are now to try and tie it into PvP by turning them into Ker'rat clones.

    Well there is that, some people like the single player safe zone private thing.

    One thing that can be done is to offer 2 options, your regular private one and also your endeavor shared pvp one, with the second being only available if you are send there by your endeavor tasks.
    I just don't see any benefit to changing how patrols are now to try and tie it into PvP by turning them into Ker'rat clones.

    Doing ker'rat for too long can be dull, because the same theme at some point becomes boring. Not to mention fighting the same players/teams over and over again. There are many patrols which are aesthetically pleasing and not being visited at all. The idea here is that by traveling from system to system the gameplay is refreshing, providing new kind experience every time, exploration, and spread of players all over the place, so when you do it its always fresh and engaging, it creates a good general feeling. New opponents, new experiences every time.

    Sure, you could just do "join a pvp match" endeavor and such already exist, and after little bid of play it feels good but it is like coca cola, when you have extra it starts to feel toxic. Not to mention meeting the same players over and over again can be unpleasant experience, specially for those who are on the losing team.



    Post edited by vanhyo on
  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 2,951 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    vanhyo wrote: »
    Incentive to pvp is good idea, but it has to be done cleverly, a sudden overdose of EC for all players will not increase the goods that are offered in the exchange, so you will not get your expensive coveted thing that you wanted because if everyone is earning that much money, then the price will rise and you will basically destroy the economy because other ways of gaining EC will become too insignificant compared to PvP....

    I was chatting with other dudes in Ker'rat and they gave me the link here to share something we have been talking about:

    1.Convert all Alpha and Beta Patrol missions into shared PvP zones like Ker'rat (delta and gamma will be too much of an annoyance, also my memory tells me delta patrols have lag problems)

    2. Remove patrols from the looking for group thing, it is a game killer. For patrols to really feel like patrols you have to fly there manually, it is also relaxing when you move from one system to another instead of queing from some dull place.

    3. Add a repeatable endeavour called "finish a patrol mission" It only requires you to be in the patrol mission when it finishes, for example, you are in japori - someone kills the waves and you are only watching, the patrol zone self-resets like ker'rat and you get the credit for finishing it. The repeatable endevours rewards a simple 1000 exp points to your perk progresss, nothing else.
    (edit: it has to send you to a specific random patrol, not one of your choosing)

    Conclusion - since you will like to build up your perks, here is the chance to "farm them up", the EXP gain is low but the key here is REPEATABLE. You will have to travel from system to system and finish patrol missions, sometimes you will meet other players from enemy faction, other times not. Sometimes they will attack you, other times not. If you are too chicken, you may just cloak and hide till others finish the patrol so you may gain the credit. Or just build a zombie that doesnt die. The possibilities are many, since the goal is to farm endeavour it is possible that most people will want to just focus on that and ignore the enemy player lurking around.

    The overall idea is the MMO experience, where you explore the world, meet other people and all sort unplanned things happen while you build up your ingame character.

    <snips>

    I don't honestly like the idea of opening up the patrols to be PvP zones.

    ...it would be pretty easy to troll in an open zone.

    And another issue is that some people use those patrols to help test their builds against various enemies. They don't need someone swooping in and killing everything in sight or attacking them.

    I just don't see any benefit to changing how patrols are now to try and tie it into PvP by turning them into Ker'rat clones.

    Would have to agree with this as well. Patrols are used by a lot of newer and casual players looking for a solo exploration experience. Most of all PvP has to be consensual for all parties so likely limited to a few select maps. It has nothing to do with being 'chicken' but freedom of choice.
  • garaffegaraffe Member Posts: 1,353 Arc User
    vanhyo wrote: »
    If most people are space barbie casuals then most space barbie casuals will meet other space barbie casuals, so they will be enjoying their casual thing on a casual levels, with very few supermans interrupting it from time to time.

    All it takes is one person with a pvp build to steamroll an entire team of casual players over and over and over.

    The only way pvp will work is if there are two modes: one for casual players, and one for hardcore pvpers. As a point of necessity, there would need to be some condition on the casual queues that if one person does super high amounts of damage compared to the average across the whole match, they would get some kind of penalty (perhaps an account wide pvp match ban for an hour). Some kind of penalty that will keep the pvpers in the hardcore queues.
  • vanhyovanhyo Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    garaffe wrote: »
    vanhyo wrote: »
    If most people are space barbie casuals then most space barbie casuals will meet other space barbie casuals, so they will be enjoying their casual thing on a casual levels, with very few supermans interrupting it from time to time.

    All it takes is one person with a pvp build to steamroll an entire team of casual players over and over and over.

    The only way pvp will work is if there are two modes: one for casual players, and one for hardcore pvpers. As a point of necessity, there would need to be some condition on the casual queues that if one person does super high amounts of damage compared to the average across the whole match, they would get some kind of penalty (perhaps an account wide pvp match ban for an hour). Some kind of penalty that will keep the pvpers in the hardcore queues.

    ques will be terrible idea :D patrols are not ques dude

    Also there is nothing wrong with getting steamrolled, it makes you revalue your strategy and consider what you need to improve. But lets for the sake of the argument say that most players are not this kind of sportsman, so a simple algorithm could send those who accumulate loses on X, Y, Z systems and those who accumulate wins to A, B, C systems and the systems will also rotate each day so you don't end up stuck in the same patrols for too long. This way you might meet players closer to your level.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    vanhyo wrote: »
    Also there is nothing wrong with getting steamrolled, it makes you revalue your strategy and consider what you need to improve.

    I think you have a different interpretation of what "steamrolled" means compared to everyone else. How can one reevaluate strategy and build to see what needs to improve... IF YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE A CHANCE TO DO ANYTHING WHATSOEVER?!

    Steamrolled ususally means instakilled. No strategy to reassess, no chance to see what worked and what didn't. Just... obliteration before you could even blink. How can you determine what needs work if you're not even given a chance to see what did in the first place? Does that mean your ENTIRE build is faulty because you basically got spawncamped or otherwise instakilled? And how do you reevaluate strategy if you are spawncamped or otherwise instakilled? All you get is "I can't fight back whatsoever." Which in turn demoralizes the victim of said tactic, and makes them LESS likely to want to do it again.

    I'm sorry but again trying to turn patrols into Ker'rat clones is a terrible idea, and trying to cite some algorithm to sort skill levels is terrible as well as people WILL find ways to game the system. Do not underestimate a determined troll out for their own amusement at the expense of others.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • vanhyovanhyo Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    I see pvp is terrifying you, if you are afraid by wolves don't go to the woods. But there are those who like to do pvp.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    I think you're confusing fear for facts. Have I had bad experiences in the past? Yes. But that is not a factor in this. And I don't think you're understanding where I, and several others, are coming from either.

    You're wanting to take away things many players use and convert them into Ker'rat Clones to encourage PvP. Not only that, you're saying its OK to get outright murderized without being able to put up a fight because "hey! It will guage your skill level and tell you what you need to improve!" HOW DO YOU LEARN FROM NOT EVEN BEING ABLE TO MOVE?

    There are builds that exist that outright vaporize player ships because they are designed to chew through things with MUCH BIGGER HP POOLS than a player. You put those builds up against a player, there is no learning where your weakness is. There is only instadead. You cannot learn anything from an instakill other than "I can't fight back, why should I even bother".

    For it to be a learning experience, you need to actually be able to fight back.
    A game is supposed to be fun. I, and I'm pretty sure many others, do not enjoy getting oneshot. And while losing a match can be a learning experience, getting oneshot over and over doesn't teach you anything. It doesn't reveal weaknesses in your build or strategy, because you don't even get a chance to enact a strategy. All you do, is add to the other guy's kill score because you're an easy mark who can't fight back.
    So... how is being steamrolled fair for the guy on the receiving end? All I see is frustration, rage at not being able to do anything, and less incentive to PvP.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • echattyechatty Member Posts: 5,913 Arc User
    edited July 2020
    I see you must be one of those spawncampers who thinks instavaping people is fun and should be thrust on those of us who do not do PvP for the very reasons @rattler2 stated. It's also not very PvP-ish if one of the participants isn't even given a chance.

    It's not very fun for the victim. And no, I've never intentionally put myself in a PvP situation because SOME of us don't come to a game to fight other people.
    Now a LTS and loving it.
    Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
    I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything. :D
  • vanhyovanhyo Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    edited July 2020
    Pls don't strawman me, read carefully what i wrote. If you hate pvp it will not effect you at all.


    The pvp folks i talked to seem to like the idea...
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    vanhyo wrote: »
    1.Convert all Alpha and Beta Patrol missions into shared PvP zones like Ker'rat

    Affects PvE players because it removes content for them to make Ker'rat Clones.
    2. Remove patrols from the looking for group thing, it is a game killer. For patrols to really feel like patrols you have to fly there manually, it is also relaxing when you move from one system to another instead of queing from some dull place.

    See counterpoint 1 above.
    3. Add a repeatable endeavour called "finish a patrol mission" It only requires you to be in the patrol mission when it finishes, for example, you are in japori - someone kills the waves and you are only watching, the patrol zone self-resets like ker'rat and you get the credit for finishing it. The repeatable endevours rewards a simple 1000 exp points to your perk progresss, nothing else.
    (edit: it has to send you to a specific random patrol, not one of your choosing)

    Incentivising leeching, on top of potential for trolling an open zone. And some may use it to attack opposing faction players who are just trying to do the objective, just like in Ker'rat.

    You're making arguments, but not listening to the feedback because it doesn't agree with you.
    vanhyo wrote: »
    I see pvp is terrifying you, if you are afraid by wolves don't go to the woods. But there are those who like to do pvp.

    THAT says "I don't care about your concerns". There is no "strawman" about it. Several of us have raised legit concerns based on past experience.

    I am not Anti-PvP in any capacity. I wouldn't mind seeing the PvPers get something. The issue is how to address it so it is fair to all. I, and several others, have pointed out flaws, only to basically be told we don't know what we're talking about and brushed off. If you did care about it, you would be more open to discussion on how your idea could be made to work and be fair for all. You want to outright replace the patrols with Ker'rat Clones. We've opposed that. The logical thing to do would be to say "ok... I hear your concerns, lets discuss how to address that". Not "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the oven". That kind of attitude is borderline gatekeeping, as you are incentivising blocking players from doing things because it doesn't fit what you want, in this case having your Ker'rat Clones totally replace patrols despite the concerns raised earlier.

    For sake of argument, lets say you are open to suggestions. How about instead of just outright replacing the patrols wholesale, make a seperate version that can be accessed seperately, thus leaving the normal current patrols alone for people who don't want to be forced into a PvP situation. Or maybe even have these Ker'rat Clones in nearby systems rather than replacing existing patrols.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
This discussion has been closed.