After watching the first episode, I found it interesting but... I kind of hate what they've done to the federation. Apparently nothing is allowed to be a happy future, everything has to be dark and dreary. Oh the federation that has grown so much that by the time of starfleet racism amongst humans has been completely eliminated, oh the federation built upon ideals of peace and unity is turned into a xenophobic racists allegory for todays United States government. The federation would never turn down the option to aid refugees FROM ANY SPECIES. Its just not in the federation to be... bigoted. Don't give me this TRIBBLE about how Androids (OF WHICH THERE ARE ONLY A HANDFUL IN STAR TREK) decided to attack the shipyards on mars (THAT HAVE ALWAYS BEEN SHOWN TO BE IN SPACE) and destroyed the planet when absolutely no reason is given for them to do such a thing and suddenly that one act of terrorism turns the entire federation into xenophobic bigots. Like damn, I hate how every new show for adults just has to make things "apocalyptic" or "bleak" because they think dark shows make things interesting and then they don't care what they do, or what they change. This is like what happened in the last jedi when they made Luke consider murdering his nephew.
Sorry for the rant but I just really am upset by the portrayal of the federation in the show.
In 2370, in an alternate quantum reality, a partially-constructed Galaxy-class starship was housed in the surface facilities of Utopia Planitia. (TNG: "Parallels")
you were saying? even though that example was another reality, if that one had it, then there's a high chance the prime reality did too
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
In 2370, in an alternate quantum reality, a partially-constructed Galaxy-class starship was housed in the surface facilities of Utopia Planitia. (TNG: "Parallels")
you were saying?
That neither goes against my complaints or supports them. It was an alternate universe that was so different that the controls of the ship weren't easily recognizeable by Worf. Along with the many other changes in that universe it could be that they had shipyards on the surface. But the shipyards on the surface would not be nearly as important since just about every shipyard whether around earth or jupiter is shown to be in space (which makes sense, its going to be a lot easier to built something when you don't have to worry about gravity and weight)
it also makes sense to build starship components that need to be able to withstand extreme stress in an environment that actually HAS some amount of stress - like gravity
that reason is why we see so many terrestrial shipyards in addition to orbital facilities in star wars too
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
After watching the first episode, I found it interesting but... I kind of hate what they've done to the federation. Apparently nothing is allowed to be a happy future, everything has to be dark and dreary. Oh the federation that has grown so much that by the time of starfleet racism amongst humans has been completely eliminated, oh the federation built upon ideals of peace and unity is turned into a xenophobic racists allegory for todays United States government. The federation would never turn down the option to aid refugees FROM ANY SPECIES. Its just not in the federation to be... bigoted. Don't give me this TRIBBLE about how Androids (OF WHICH THERE ARE ONLY A HANDFUL IN STAR TREK) decided to attack the shipyards on mars (THAT HAVE ALWAYS BEEN SHOWN TO BE IN SPACE) and destroyed the planet when absolutely no reason is given for them to do such a thing and suddenly that one act of terrorism turns the entire federation into xenophobic bigots. Like damn, I hate how every new show for adults just has to make things "apocalyptic" or "bleak" because they think dark shows make things interesting and then they don't care what they do, or what they change. This is like what happened in the last jedi when they made Luke consider murdering his nephew.
Sorry for the rant but I just really am upset by the portrayal of the federation in the show.
Oh, please. Bigotry didn't go away in Star Trek. Even in TNG it just got redirected.
Spock regularly called out fellow crew members of the Enterprise for making racist statements.
"Who Watches the Watchers?": Picard expresses anti-theist bigotry when he encapsulates the Prime Directive issue with the Mintakans. If he'd said "we need to fix this because we're not gods and it's bad if people think we are", that would be one thing, but what he actually says is closer to "we need to fix this because these people believing in gods at all is a bad thing".
"The Wounded": Picard calls all Cardassians treacherous as a fig leaf for his own stupidity in lowering his ship's shields in a war zone.
"The Drumhead": Rear Admiral Norah Satie goes on a witch hunt on the Enterprise-D that eventually targets an enlisted man for little more than having a Romulan grandfather. Yeah, I know, he lied on his enlistment paperwork. Tell me:
One, why is the species of his grandfather relevant to his own enlistment in the first place?
Two, why do you think he felt he needed to lie about it?
Bonus question: Are you aware of where the phrase "grandfather clause" comes from?
Directly relevant to PIC: Data and the Doctor repeatedly having to fight just to be recognized as a sapient being with rights.
"Doctor Bashir, I Presume?": Julian Bashir is nearly thrown out of Starfleet for the "crime" of being a genetic Augment.
"Scorpion": Janeway assumes the non-humanoid Species 8472 are worse than the humanoid Borg and commits acts of war against a neutral species over it. See also various comments from Janeway about how something an alien species is doing isn't "the human thing to do".
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Another example of that is in the TOS episode This Side of Paradise, where Kirk makes Spock angry enough to break out of the spore trance by taunting him with racial slurs that are obviously all too familiar to Spock.
Star Trek was never supposed to be a perfect utopia, the point was always that they were striving for the goal (and a lot further along than today) but still had a ways to go, and trying to live up to those ideals formed a large part of the tone of the show. That fact that it was post-scarcity and peer pressure actively discouraged greed and hoarding just confuse a lot of viewers into thinking it is supposed to already be a utopia.
Another example of that is in the TOS episode This Side of Paradise, where Kirk makes Spock angry enough to break out of the spore trance by taunting him with racial slurs that are obviously all too familiar to Spock.
Star Trek was never supposed to be a perfect utopia, the point was always that they were striving for the goal (and a lot further along than today) but still had a ways to go, and trying to live up to those ideals formed a large part of the tone of the show. That fact that it was post-scarcity and peer pressure actively discouraged greed and hoarding just confuse a lot of viewers into thinking it is supposed to already be a utopia.
A post-scarcity civilization is as close to a utopia that we can get without altering human nature. As long as there is food, water, shelter, safety, and entertainment for everyone, then most people will be satisfied. Most crimes are done due to someone lacking a need. However, most of the crimes not related to lacking a need can be mitigated through entertainment. Realistic virtual worlds would be able to satisfy almost everyone. If someone wants to be Hugh Hefner in his prime, then just have someone create a virtual world of his life. The only thing missing in a post-scarcity civilization is purpose.
Everyone would be trapped in a virtual world of their own choosing. Existing in virtual worlds would reduce our carbon footprint since we would only need power for our life supports, water purifiers, and to run our virtual worlds and manufacturing nutrients, . There is no need for travel, transporting food from thousands of kilometers away, most manufacturing facilities, or most of the things required for modern civilization. So in order to save our planet, then everyone should be put in virtual worlds.
> @starswordc said: > * "Scorpion Wass zzz zzz, 2,1a,, esawqs,, @6sqe1q34131": Janeway assumes the non-humanoid Species 8472 are worse than the humanoid Borg and commits acts of war against a neutral species over it.
Actually 8472 dealt the first blow. Because of the actions of one milky way denizen they attacked any other in sight. Janeway was more finding a the enemy of my enemy solution. She can't really be held responsible for what happened to arcturus
The tired old "the federation was never a perfect utopia!!!11!1" spiel is really getting old at this point. While true, that is NOT what anyone is actually saying. No one is actually claiming the federation was perfect or had NO flaws. But usually those flaws were the exeption, not the norm. That is why the main characters were usually suprised to discover these problems and tried to fix them.
In general, Trek has not been a "dark" show. Obviously DS9 was, and hell, I loved it. But most Trek wasn't like that, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with the folks who miss THAT kind of Trek. Recent example: most people seemed to enjoy s2 of disco more than s1. The first season was just another grimdark modern scifi show, but the second season actually started to feel like it was Trek again.
So anyway, stop trying to strawman what people are actually saying. People AREN'T saying the federation was perfect. But some people just miss the more positive Trek vibe and don't want just another grimdark show like every other new scifi show in recent years.
Also, I think some people just want to defend Trek against ANY complaints and would completely flip the script if the situation were reversed. What I mean is, if Picard had been a more positive themed show and someone posted a complaint wishing it were darker, I have a feeling that the same people who are defending it's grimdarkness now would also be defending it's positivity in that scenario. Obviously we'll never know, but it's just my gut feeling
I personally prefer darker shows (imo the BSG remake is the greatest TV show ever made), but I still think the Federation's actions regarding the Romulan supernova are way out of character for them.
I personally prefer darker shows (imo the BSG remake is the greatest TV show ever made),
Generally speaking, I do too. True Detective S1 and Chenobyl are two of my all time faves, and dark as hell. I also loved the new BSG. But there is a difference between liking/prefering dark shows(in general) and wanting everything to be dark. There is also a difference between loving DS9, and wanting all Trek to feel like DS9. So yeah, I love dark shows. But no, I don't want Trek to become just another grimdark scifi show like every other grimdark scifi show coming out now.
That said...I'm not judging a season by 1 episode. I'm just having a general discussion about these topics and themes.
> @foxspirit13 said:
> STO goes off the rails so much that cannon is just a suggestion lol. We have Discovery and TOS using the Temporal Cold War storyline as an excuse to be shoe-horned into the game. That horrendous nonsense about Andorians needing several genders to procreate thanks to a terrible novel. Then there's the Dominion hopping on the alliance bandwagon we can have playable Jem'hadar (which I still don't think anyone ever requested). All the strange non-cannon ships we can use, somehow cramming in the Mirror Universe ships...
>
> To stick closer to cannon PWI would have to stop shoehorning in stuff like this, and they won't because all of these things are money generators and nothing more.
>
> STO is soft-cannon.
The Andorians have four sexes , not four genders and it made the Andorians more interesting and those novels were cool and interesting .
I disagree, but your opinion is your own, and mine is my own. BUT that's side-traking the actual topic... there was a *huge* thread on 10 Forward back when Cryptic still owned the game about this. Probably still archived on here.
--
I would like to point out for the others discussing the Hobus/Rom Sun "mistake" that perhaps it's not a mistake at all. This interview was an obvious hatchet-job. Picard was promised he wouldn't be asked certain questions, and they did so anyway. Deliberately misnaming the exploding star could have been a ploy to make the whole issue look like a fool's errand to start with. Just because it's the 24th century doesn't mean that there aren't gullible people watching only propaganda news.
Stuff I liked:
- The production values are of course top notch.
- Seeing more of civilian Earth of the late 24th/early 25th century. (The Boston cityscape and other areas).
- That Earth may not be as 'Utopian' as TNG made out in that we have a reporter with a CLEAR agenda of not just giving an decorated Starfleet Admiral a 'Softball' interview. Picard was well known but had never talked about the fallout from the Mars incident; and she was there to grill him on it. (I will say, I also like that they did do older Picard right in that he was caught off guard, but in the end, instead of just walking off, he made a statement <--- Which is the same way he was through TNG's run.)
- That we find the Mars synth attack ended CENTURIES of terraforming efforts, ignited combustible gases in the upper atmosphere, killed 92,000 inhabitants; and that Mars is still burning/in flames a decade later <--- IE - What I like here is that hey, there IS a problem that 24th/25th century tech can't just magically reverse with some sort of particle/beam/etc. <--- Which was another TNG trope of the 1701-D with Data/Geordi and the Deflector Dish solving a major planatery catastrophe in the last five minutes (see TNG S5 ' "A Matter of Time" and TNG S7 - "Inheritance"). here was a disaster that couldn't just be teched away.
- I thought the aspect of Picard having nightmare's about Mars and Data combined was good; and I like the way they worked the dream about the painting and how it's related to Dahj AND Data was a nice touch.
- The ultimate death of Dahj (yep that was unexpected); although it was minimized by the fact they so loudly hit us viewers over the head (in MANY OBVIOUS WAYS) that - "Hey, there must be TWO of them way before the Daystrom 'nerd' scientist reveals that the only method of cloning that would allow for a synthetic to be 'fully humanlike' produces a pair of clones (how convenient.)
Stuff I Disliked:
- Sorry but I agree that overall the pacing in spots of the episode was abysmal. I like Stewart's acting, but they really dragged out sequences; (like the card game in Ten Forward - so yeah, where's all the TNG fans that complained about a lot of the scenes in various TRIBBLE episodes that they felt were just nostalgic fan service?) The scene went on way too long IMO and was there just to pander to TNG fan nostalgia - but hey it's TNG so that's different?).
- Where are the police after the assault in Dahj's apartment? They seem to quickly find Picard in France after that incident and return him home (and hell don't even question him about anything it appears) - but in the highly monitored near 25th century; three Romulan thugs teleport in, kill a Federation citizen, fire energy weapons; and are ultimately left dead on the floor - yet, no one (or sensor) in the building picks this up; or if they do - how does Dahj manage to spend the night at Picard's Vineyard, then teleport to France, etc. WITHOUT any sort of APB from some police agency somewhere? Are you trying to tell me something like this would go unnoticed in 'Utpopian' Boston for 12-24 hours? Dahj definitely has a citizen record/history as a citizne in the Federation. Shen was just accepted to the Daystrom Institute. Where ARE the Police after this major incident of 4 deaths and possible murder.
- Why, (after going through pretty great lengths with a database search and believing he's the only one who can help); does she run off? Sorry but the whole "I don't want to put anyone else in danger..." is just a bit weird if she's that frightened considering again, she DOESN'T go to the police or some authority in the Federation that would protect Civilians who are under armed threat? And WHY does she leave her necklace (something her farther specifically made for her) behind so easily AFTER Picard hands it directly back to her?
- And sorry, the whole "Mom I'm in trouble..."/and the supposed deep plant masquerading as Mom for at least a year or more (Dahj again appears to have a 'normal' liife for a while, has a boyfriend, was accepted into a prestigious Federation organization) IMMEDIATELY slips up and says "Go back to Picard..." - BEFORE Dahj mentions him...talk about an OVERUSED trope (and not just in Trek here). Please, Chabon is supposed to be a good writer, but falling back on such a tired old trope here? Just so they can drive home to the audience - "Hey something' not right about her..." <--- IDK 3 murdering Romulans appearing out of nowhere, slapping some sort of diagnostic device on her head, and mentioning - "She's not activated yet..."; and a minute later "She's activating!" and eh proceeds to kill them all ISN'T enough for the audience to pick all this up? Again, why all this extra padding to this particular character setup? Just so they can have a reason that the Romulan thugs don't beam in to th4 Vineyard and have a run in with Picard's Romulan house staff when they try to kidnap Dajh?
- Picard's high tech storage trailer in the "Starfleet Quantum Archives". :wtf: Do all Starfleet personnel (including one who completely resigned his commission in protest) get a 100% secure "their eyes only" area (where even the Index Hologram won't divulge what's there)? Why wasn't some (or most) of this stuff not at the Vineyard where Picard makes his home? It seems to have a lot of security as we learn when Dahj disappears and runs off to France. And he ALREADY recognized Dahj in the painting hanging at his home - so why the need to go to the Archives to begin with - except because they now need a neutral place (IE not the Vineyard with Picard's Romulan house staff there.)
- And with respect to Dahj showing up out of nowhere. Doesn't Picard have acess to the 24th/25th century version of the Internet, AND since he has a Quantum Archive Storage Unit' - wouldn't he still have some elevated access to do searches? IE - Why didn't Picard not even bother to do a minimal cursory lookup of Dahj's history/background after she first arrived? No, he just (pretty much out of the blue) asks only about her necklace and hands it directly back to her so she can place it on the table to leave it behind); sends her to her room, and goes straight to bed himself.
- I also think they probably could and should have saved the ACTUAL "Yes folks...there's a twin of Dahj..." reveal for the start of episode 2, but that's me. It's pretty standard to do it the way they did it, and it did add the reveal that yes, the Rolulans are studying a Borg cube...Dun...dun...dun...
Again, overall, I did enjoy it, and I agree that Patrick Stewart's is doing a really nice job here acting wise - and while I agree with others that they really did seem to be dragging some stuff out unnecessarily - it does set up an interesting situation, and does leave some interesting questions waiting to be answered.
That said, it's honestly still at about the same writing level as TRIBBLE with the way it handles fanservice, some tropes, and certain plot points and plot devices to move the story along;yet here we have a number of TNG fans who criticize TRIBBLE when it does it, but when using TNG characters that these fans love and really relate to, instead there comments are: "Now, this is the way to do it...great job!"
I will throw something out there that I think would be interesting if they go this route; but I doubt they will:
Data was completely destroyed and B-4 was a completely inferior android to Data. BUT - what about Lore. Yes Data shoots and deactivates him at the end of TNG S6 - "Descent II": http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/253.htm
LORE: I've got a way out of here. I'm willing to forget about what happened back there and take you with me. We don't need anyone else. We're brothers. I'll give you the chip our father made. It contains much more than just emotions. It has memories. Memories our father wanted you to have.
(Lore zaps Data with emotion, making him gasp, but Data still managed to shoot Lore)
DATA: Lore, I must deactivate you now.
LORE: Without me, you will never feel emotion again.
DATA: I know, but you leave me no other choice.
LORE: I love you, brother.
DATA: Goodbye, Lore.
^^^
So yeah, I doubt they left Lore there - thus, a some point Lore should be sitting on a shelf somewhere (maybe he was even store in that Quantum Archive facility ); but my plot point that I think would be interesting if they go there:
What if (because again Data is destroyed and B-4 inferior) Maddox used Lore's positronic mcguffins as the basis for Starfleet Synth research going forward, and that's why all the Synths went Rogue and did what they did to Mars? Maddox may have ten realized his mistake, still had something from the actual Data and after being barred from further research did use that part of Data (and maybe some Borg tech which is why the Romulans are also interested), and off we go. hell a real twist would be the Dahj twins were made from a combination of Data's and Lore's mcguffins; OR that she's 100% from Lore, with adjustments from Maddox that he believes fixes the problems of his original Synth designs based off Lore. It would be great if Brent Spiner also reprised Lore (who of course would be destroyed in a noble sacrifice at the end to atone for his deeds - and saves Picard and Co.); and of course at the end Dahj either is left to live her life masquerading as a human; OR Picard of course manages to get Starfleet to see the ban on Synths is wrong, and they start making more with Dahj as a template and they get their rights back.
But yeah, probably not (and yeah, there's a lot of tropes there as well, but hey that's Star Trek; TOS, TNG, TRIBBLE, STP, doesn't matter.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
After watching the first episode, I found it interesting but... I kind of hate what they've done to the federation. Apparently nothing is allowed to be a happy future, everything has to be dark and dreary. Oh the federation that has grown so much that by the time of starfleet racism amongst humans has been completely eliminated, oh the federation built upon ideals of peace and unity is turned into a xenophobic racists allegory for todays United States government. The federation would never turn down the option to aid refugees FROM ANY SPECIES. Its just not in the federation to be... bigoted. Don't give me this TRIBBLE about how Androids (OF WHICH THERE ARE ONLY A HANDFUL IN STAR TREK) decided to attack the shipyards on mars (THAT HAVE ALWAYS BEEN SHOWN TO BE IN SPACE) and destroyed the planet when absolutely no reason is given for them to do such a thing and suddenly that one act of terrorism turns the entire federation into xenophobic bigots. Like damn, I hate how every new show for adults just has to make things "apocalyptic" or "bleak" because they think dark shows make things interesting and then they don't care what they do, or what they change. This is like what happened in the last jedi when they made Luke consider murdering his nephew.
Sorry for the rant but I just really am upset by the portrayal of the federation in the show.
Oh, please. Bigotry didn't go away in Star Trek. Even in TNG it just got redirected.
Spock regularly called out fellow crew members of the Enterprise for making racist statements.
"Who Watches the Watchers?": Picard expresses anti-theist bigotry when he encapsulates the Prime Directive issue with the Mintakans. If he'd said "we need to fix this because we're not gods and it's bad if people think we are", that would be one thing, but what he actually says is closer to "we need to fix this because these people believing in gods at all is a bad thing".
"The Wounded": Picard calls all Cardassians treacherous as a fig leaf for his own stupidity in lowering his ship's shields in a war zone.
"The Drumhead": Rear Admiral Norah Satie goes on a witch hunt on the Enterprise-D that eventually targets an enlisted man for little more than having a Romulan grandfather. Yeah, I know, he lied on his enlistment paperwork. Tell me:
One, why is the species of his grandfather relevant to his own enlistment in the first place?
Two, why do you think he felt he needed to lie about it?
Bonus question: Are you aware of where the phrase "grandfather clause" comes from?
Directly relevant to PIC: Data and the Doctor repeatedly having to fight just to be recognized as a sapient being with rights.
"Doctor Bashir, I Presume?": Julian Bashir is nearly thrown out of Starfleet for the "crime" of being a genetic Augment.
"Scorpion": Janeway assumes the non-humanoid Species 8472 are worse than the humanoid Borg and commits acts of war against a neutral species over it. See also various comments from Janeway about how something an alien species is doing isn't "the human thing to do".
Bigotry does not mean what you think it means. It is not a catch all term for any sort of negative opinion of a species or culture or something. Bigotry by definition, includes a total unwillingness to be convinced otherwise. A bigot is not someone who starts out suspicious of someone due to sterotypes but later realizes that person is actually okay. That ability to get past the stereotype prejudice completely precludes that person from being a bigot.
There is also a huge difference between the many things you listed, many of which are definitely not bigotry.
For example, the shows established Cardassians and Romulans as frequently treacherous and deceptive. it isn't therefore wrong for someone in Starfleet to be wary of treachery from those groups. It is established as common stereotype, and like most stereotypes it exists for a reason. A bigot is going to assume this to be true of an individual Cardassian and Romulan despite evidence to the contrary. A non-bigot expects treachery/deception from an individual because of past interaction/sterotype, but can change their opinion of them if they prove they don't fit the stereotype.
Yet, one has to ask here, why are Cardies and Rommies so willing to deceive other species, with the Romulans notorious for isolating themselves from other species? Why only see "bigotry" from the Starfleet/Federation point of view?
This established deception of these species is why Starfleet would want to know about someone connected to the Romulans. Not because they have pointy ears and a funny forehead, but because their family history involves being part of a secret antagonistic empire known for its deception. To lie about that history only furthers the idea that the liar could well be a spy as they are actively engaging in deception. Then of course there's a huge difference between putting people in camps because they have a certain heritage, versus simply asking to divulge those connections to research them and see if there is a potential spy connection there.
Data and the Doctor should need to fight to be recognized as sapient. It is an entirely new and unexpected issue to the Federation to deal with artificial intelligence that could even begin to appear as a sentient being. The default is obviously to assume no they aren't, because they were engineered. The question is where is the line? It isn't any kind of bigotry, it is an entirely rational question to ask, at what point does an AI become "human"? How does a civilization deal with artificial life when it frequently creates and uses them as tools? It isn't a simple question at all so confusing it with some kind of racism or prejudice is very silly.
Bashir's unique problem is that he is an augment, and the eugenics wars of Earth, as well as Khan were devastating lessons to learn. A doctor involved with eugenics is a really dangerous combination, so Starfleet is entirely in their right to be concerned. Yet was he kicked out? No, they recognized he isn't like Khan, they didn't make a gross generalization and ignore his individuality and proven record so this is clearly one that doesn't even belong in the list. But again, who is really the bigger problem? The genetically superior that see normal humans as lesser, which is even arguably true, or the people who want to prevent that sort of situation again and are wary of eugenics and augments?
It simply is not bigotry to have some preconceived notions, rely on stereotypes, or even prejudices when dealing with people you don't know or don't understand, especially if you know people similar to them have a reputation for acting a certain way. When that is all you know, you act on what you know. A bigot is someone unable to change from those defaults and overwrite them with knowledge of that individual as they learn about them.
In the case of the Romulans (and probably the Cardassians as well) the treachery and deception are force multipliers run amok.
Joanne Linville's character points out that the Romulans are a poor but proud people, and implies that they had to find other ways to defend themselves and accomplish their goals than simply going head to head with major foreign powers.
The interactions between Mark Lenard's Romulan commander, the old centurion, and the politically connected and treacherous weasel Decius reveal that Romulan society at that time was going though the same kind of flux that ancient Rome did when it fell from a Republic into an imperial system.
Those clues taken together paint a very clear picture, especially since DC Fontana and others involved in producing Star Trek have made comments about how it was actually being based on that period of Roman history. By the time TNG rolled around the Romulans had completed that fall and many of them actually were the stereotypical moustache-twirling villains by that point instead of honorable but pragmatic people reluctantly using subterfuge as a necessary part of their political/wartime toolkit.
The tired old "the federation was never a perfect utopia!!!11!1" spiel is really getting old at this point. While true, that is NOT what anyone is actually saying. No one is actually claiming the federation was perfect or had NO flaws. But usually those flaws were the exeption, not the norm. That is why the main characters were usually suprised to discover these problems and tried to fix them.
Yeah, this is pretty much it. And even DS9 wasn't that dark. Its second half was dark, but even then, episodes not dealing directly with the war tended to be light and happy, and even though there were 800 million nameless invisible Cardassians dead, most of the main cast (with the exception of the Siskos) got a happy ending. Most importantly the Federation is largely portrayed as good thing with good people in it. The only meaningful dig at them is around the Maquis.
And what ran alongside and followed DS9? The relentlessly optimistic Voyager.
It's not a deal breaker with Picard for me, the current position of the Federation. But I'd hope it'll be expanded and nuanced during the series. Or that we get to see a Starfleet captain who isn't a dogmatic bureaucrat and maybe helps Picard and his rag-tag crew and doesn't get immediately sacked for it. Rather than the current picture which seems to be that everyone who we know to be good has either retired or taken matters into their own hands.
After watching the first episode, I found it interesting but... I kind of hate what they've done to the federation. Apparently nothing is allowed to be a happy future, everything has to be dark and dreary. Oh the federation that has grown so much that by the time of starfleet racism amongst humans has been completely eliminated, oh the federation built upon ideals of peace and unity is turned into a xenophobic racists allegory for todays United States government. The federation would never turn down the option to aid refugees FROM ANY SPECIES. Its just not in the federation to be... bigoted. Don't give me this TRIBBLE about how Androids (OF WHICH THERE ARE ONLY A HANDFUL IN STAR TREK) decided to attack the shipyards on mars (THAT HAVE ALWAYS BEEN SHOWN TO BE IN SPACE) and destroyed the planet when absolutely no reason is given for them to do such a thing and suddenly that one act of terrorism turns the entire federation into xenophobic bigots. Like damn, I hate how every new show for adults just has to make things "apocalyptic" or "bleak" because they think dark shows make things interesting and then they don't care what they do, or what they change. This is like what happened in the last jedi when they made Luke consider murdering his nephew.
Sorry for the rant but I just really am upset by the portrayal of the federation in the show.
Amen. The Federation are the ultimate good guys to the point they are willing to throw their own CIA (Section 31) under the bus to keep those ideals in tact. Section 31 is devoted to the security of the Federation but every Captain who has ran up against them wants them gone despite fighting for the same goals....and for good reason. They live and die by their ideals which is why the Federation in Star Trek has been inspiring and why it really hits home when the Captains of the series do go off the deep end and all the crew gasps in horror as does the audience. The Dominion War was the ultimate fight for those ideas against an enemy who seeks to impose order among what they perceive as chaos, ironically the Dominion and Borg have a lot of philosophical similarities just for different reasons. The Federation and even the Klingon Empire feels the same way, to a degree has proven time and again that the ideals of peace and freedom for all species can be fought for and won. If anything it should have affirmed the Federation Constitution not completely obliterate it.
In the Federation there are no "the ends justify the means" even if its for good reasons.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "This planet smells, it must be the Klingons"
After watching the first episode, I found it interesting but... I kind of hate what they've done to the federation. Apparently nothing is allowed to be a happy future, everything has to be dark and dreary. Oh the federation that has grown so much that by the time of starfleet racism amongst humans has been completely eliminated, oh the federation built upon ideals of peace and unity is turned into a xenophobic racists allegory for todays United States government. The federation would never turn down the option to aid refugees FROM ANY SPECIES. Its just not in the federation to be... bigoted. Don't give me this TRIBBLE about how Androids (OF WHICH THERE ARE ONLY A HANDFUL IN STAR TREK) decided to attack the shipyards on mars (THAT HAVE ALWAYS BEEN SHOWN TO BE IN SPACE) and destroyed the planet when absolutely no reason is given for them to do such a thing and suddenly that one act of terrorism turns the entire federation into xenophobic bigots. Like damn, I hate how every new show for adults just has to make things "apocalyptic" or "bleak" because they think dark shows make things interesting and then they don't care what they do, or what they change. This is like what happened in the last jedi when they made Luke consider murdering his nephew.
Sorry for the rant but I just really am upset by the portrayal of the federation in the show.
Amen. The Federation are the ultimate good guys to the point they are willing to throw their own CIA (Section 31) under the bus to keep those ideals in tact. Section 31 is devoted to the security of the Federation but every Captain who has ran up against them even wants them gone....and for good reason. They live and die by their ideals which is why the Federation in Star Trek has been inspiring and why it really hits home when the Captains of the series do go off the deep end and all the crew gasps in horror as does the audience. The Dominion War was the ultimate fight for those ideas against an enemy who seeks to impose order among what they perceive as chaos, ironically the Dominion and Borg have a lot of philosophical similarities just for different reasons. The Federation and even the Klingon Empire feels the same way, to a degree has proven time and again that the ideals of peace and freedom for all species can be fought for and won. If anything it should have affirmed the Federation Constitution not completely obliterate it.
It is possible that the Federation civilians grew tired with the number of wars Starfleet was involved with and isolationist sentiments reached a breaking point when the rogue synths rebelled. We only ever see the Starfleet side in the previous series not the civilian side.
What grim darkness was in Picard? Also instead of thinking of Star Trek Picard as a series think of it like a movie. The federation is in the wrong and Picard is gonna give them a speech and set them straight. If Insurrection was a ten episode series that first episode will be about how the federation is planning to force these people off the planet for the healing properties.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Bashir's unique problem is that he is an augment, and the eugenics wars of Earth, as well as Khan were devastating lessons to learn. A doctor involved with eugenics is a really dangerous combination, so Starfleet is entirely in their right to be concerned. Yet was he kicked out? No, they recognized he isn't like Khan, they didn't make a gross generalization and ignore his individuality and proven record so this is clearly one that doesn't even belong in the list. But again, who is really the bigger problem? The genetically superior that see normal humans as lesser, which is even arguably true, or the people who want to prevent that sort of situation again and are wary of eugenics and augments?
It becomes bigotry when the Federation decides that BEING an augment should be considered a crime. It has nothing to do with who you are or what you've done, but how you were born. They justify it by quoting the maxim "Superior ability breeds superior ambition". But is that even true?
> @starswordc said:
> * "Scorpion Wass zzz zzz, 2,1a,, esawqs,, @6sqe1q34131": Janeway assumes the non-humanoid Species 8472 are worse than the humanoid Borg and commits acts of war against a neutral species over it.
Actually 8472 dealt the first blow. Because of the actions of one milky way denizen they attacked any other in sight.
Janeway was more finding a the enemy of my enemy solution.
She can't really be held responsible for what happened to arcturus
Janeway sided with the enemy of all sapient life, one involved in a de facto state of war against her own government, against a species that had never before been contacted, based solely on a single encounter with a single soldier while she was blundering around in an active war zone, and against whom aforementioned enemy of all sapient life was the aggressor. That's treason, violation of the Prime Directive, violation of Directive 010, and conduct unbecoming. I've been through this argument so many times at this point I can practically recite it by rote, but I'm not interested in derailing the thread. And in any event I don't have to: https://qr.ae/TDkRvh
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
For example, the shows established Cardassians and Romulans as frequently treacherous and deceptive. it isn't therefore wrong for someone in Starfleet to be wary of treachery from those groups. It is established as common stereotype, and like most stereotypes it exists for a reason. A bigot is going to assume this to be true of an individual Cardassian and Romulan despite evidence to the contrary. A non-bigot expects treachery/deception from an individual because of past interaction/sterotype, but can change their opinion of them if they prove they don't fit the stereotype.
PICARD: I'd been sent to make preliminary overtures to a truce. I'd lowered my shields as a gesture of good will. But the Cardassians were not impressed. They had taken out most of my weapons and damaged the impulse engines before I could regroup and run.
WORF: The Cardassians have no honour. I do not trust them.
Does that look like treachery or dishonorable behavior to you?
Or does it look like Picard was a bloody idiot for not keeping his shields up in a war zone and doesn't want to admit it?
Yet, one has to ask here, why are Cardies and Rommies so willing to deceive other species, with the Romulans notorious for isolating themselves from other species? Why only see "bigotry" from the Starfleet/Federation point of view?
This established deception of these species is why Starfleet would want to know about someone connected to the Romulans. Not because they have pointy ears and a funny forehead, but because their family history involves being part of a secret antagonistic empire known for its deception. To lie about that history only furthers the idea that the liar could well be a spy as they are actively engaging in deception. Then of course there's a huge difference between putting people in camps because they have a certain heritage, versus simply asking to divulge those connections to research them and see if there is a potential spy connection there.
Actually, it's quite simple. The grandfather would have been vetted by the Federation's immigration service before he was allowed to enter the country, assuming he wasn't a Federation citizen already. So here's a crazy thought: how about we trust that the Federation has a justice system that targets people for crimes they have committed, rather than ones they might commit?
You failed the test, by the way. The "grandfather clause" originates from Jim Crow laws. It was a deliberately established loophole in voter registration restrictions designed to keep black people from voting, whereby you didn't have to pass the intentionally ridiculous voting tests if your grandfather was allowed to vote, which few blacks at enactment were because their grandfathers had been enslaved.
So what's the grandfather clause now? Are you not allowed to be in Starfleet if your grandfather was a Romulan? /sarcasm
The more likely solution is that Simon Tarses simply found it easier to live like a freaking person if people thought he was a quarter Vulcan instead, and it became so much a habit that it even ended up on his enlistment papers.
Data and the Doctor should need to fight to be recognized as sapient. It is an entirely new and unexpected issue to the Federation to deal with artificial intelligence that could even begin to appear as a sentient being. The default is obviously to assume no they aren't, because they were engineered. The question is where is the line? It isn't any kind of bigotry, it is an entirely rational question to ask, at what point does an AI become "human"? How does a civilization deal with artificial life when it frequently creates and uses them as tools? It isn't a simple question at all so confusing it with some kind of racism or prejudice is very silly.
But should they need to do it repeatedly? Or should one legal precedent be enough? First Data, who already was judged sapient enough to matriculate to and graduate from Starfleet Academy, has to fight to avoid being literally vivisected to see what makes him tick, then he has to fight to keep custody of his "daughter", then the Doctor has to fight to have the right to own intellectual property.
Bashir's unique problem is that he is an augment, and the eugenics wars of Earth, as well as Khan were devastating lessons to learn. A doctor involved with eugenics is a really dangerous combination, so Starfleet is entirely in their right to be concerned. Yet was he kicked out? No, they recognized he isn't like Khan, they didn't make a gross generalization and ignore his individuality and proven record so this is clearly one that doesn't even belong in the list. But again, who is really the bigger problem? The genetically superior that see normal humans as lesser, which is even arguably true, or the people who want to prevent that sort of situation again and are wary of eugenics and augments?
Utterly. Wrong.
Julian avoided being court-martialed or forced to resign only because his father agreed to go to prison for having Julian enhanced without his consent, in exchange for Julian getting immunity. They paid lip service to him not being like Khan while in the same breath promoting the exact sort of genetic-determinist bigotry that I'm talking about in the above posts.
It simply is not bigotry to have some preconceived notions, rely on stereotypes, or even prejudices when dealing with people you don't know or don't understand, especially if you know people similar to them have a reputation for acting a certain way. When that is all you know, you act on what you know. A bigot is someone unable to change from those defaults and overwrite them with knowledge of that individual as they learn about them.
Stereotypes are often, frequently, not based on facts. Here's another crazy thought: how about you don't judge one individual by the actions of another? Do you judge all Christians by the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church? All Georgians by the actions of Josef Stalin? All Japanese by Aum Shinrikyo? All TRIBBLE people by Milo Yiannapoulos?
Or do you judge them individually, by their own actions?
I make a conscious decision to reject all stereotypes and let people prove themselves, or not, as the case may be. You should, too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYerKidQGcc
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
> @starswordc said: > (Quote) > Janeway sided with the enemy of all sapient life, one involved in a de facto state of war against her own government, against a species that had never before been contacted, based solely on a single encounter with a single soldier while she was blundering around in an active war zone, and against whom aforementioned enemy of all sapient life was the aggressor. That's treason, violation of the Prime Directive, violation of Directive 010, and conduct unbecoming. I've been through this argument so many times at this point I can practically recite it by rote, but I'm not interested in derailing the thread. And in any event I don't have to: https://qr.ae/TDkRvh
You just sound like someone who doesn't like voyager to be honest with you.
Does that look like treachery or dishonorable behavior to you?
Or does it look like Picard was a bloody idiot for not keeping his shields up in a war zone and doesn't want to admit it?
Its both. However, you seem to deliberately ignore the many other examples, that have earned Cardassians and Romulans their reputation. There is nothing wrong with someone starting off with that assumption in mind when dealing with them. Yes that is a prejudice and a stereotype. It is apparently well deserved. If you're an open minded person, you're open to them proving to be an exception or to proving the stereotype wrong. You are under no obligation to trust them just because they exist.
Do you trust a polar bear to babysit your child just because it might not be like other polar bears? No that would be stupid. You have to start from what you know and go from there. Nothing else is reasonable or rational.
Actually, it's quite simple. The grandfather would have been vetted by the Federation's immigration service before he was allowed to enter the country, assuming he wasn't a Federation citizen already. So here's a crazy thought: how about we trust that the Federation has a justice system that targets people for crimes they have committed, rather than ones they might commit?
The kid lied. Period. He lied. He did that himself. He is a liar. Whatever reason he did that, he did that himself. If he thought he would be discriminated against because Gramps was a Romulan, he could have proved it by being honest, then litigate for discriminating against him based on race/species/ethnicity or whatever in Federation Courts. Instead he lied.
If as you claim, Gramps was a citizen, that makes it even worse, because Gramps was accepted by the Federation, and the kid still went and lied. There is no defense here.
The origins of "grandfather clause" is utterly irrelevant here so I'm not sure why you brought it up.
But should they need to do it repeatedly? Or should one legal precedent be enough? First Data, who already was judged sapient enough to matriculate to and graduate from Starfleet Academy, has to fight to avoid being literally vivisected to see what makes him tick, then he has to fight to keep custody of his "daughter", then the Doctor has to fight to have the right to own intellectual property.
Yes, you have to get a lot of legal precedent set for new issues like this. This is how the system works IRL. It is frustrating, difficult, but necessary. If you don't set the precedents or craft laws to extend legal protections, then you have nothing to work with.
Data and Doctor's difficulties were deliberately crafted to make us think about this stuff and how we should approach it. It is made all the more difficult by the fact we don't know what real "sentient" AI will ever look like yet. Data and Doctor were real people acting, which makes it all the more difficult to see them as things and thus so much easier to hate when Picard or Janeway or whoever did something unfair to them.
Utterly. Wrong.
Julian avoided being court-martialed or forced to resign only because his father agreed to go to prison for having Julian enhanced without his consent, in exchange for Julian getting immunity. They paid lip service to him not being like Khan while in the same breath promoting the exact sort of genetic-determinist bigotry that I'm talking about in the above posts.
Yes, that is how it went, and nothing I said was incorrect. Incredulously you are calling it bigotry while simultaneously refusing to understand the problem at hand is the repeatedly demonstrated "bigotry" of genetically engineered people starting wars based on their genetic supremacy. The Federation has every interest in preventing that from happening again which is why genetic augmentation is outlawed.
Maybe you're not aware of this, but threatening someone with consequences they may not deserve themselves is a law enforcement tactic to get the actual guilty party who cares for that person to confess and admit guilt. Julian was guilty of no crime and despite the inquisition, he was not punished, but the guilty party (well one of them) was punished in the end. His parents were criminals.
Stereotypes are often, frequently, not based on facts. Here's another crazy thought: how about you don't judge one individual by the actions of another? Do you judge all Christians by the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church? All Georgians by the actions of Josef Stalin? All Japanese by Aum Shinrikyo? All TRIBBLE people by Milo Yiannapoulos?
Or do you judge them individually, by their own actions?
I make a conscious decision to reject all stereotypes and let people prove themselves, or not, as the case may be. You should, too.
Again, your definition of bigotry is wide and absurd. You can put up all the ridiculous strawmen you want, let me knock these down for you.
Do you judge all Christians by Westboro actions...or just people that go to the Westboro church despite the fact that they may not themselves be activists? Obviously if someone says they go to that church you assume they are like the activists. They may not be, but that is a reasonable stereotype to hold until they prove otherwise.
Georgians and Stalin? No, what reason is there to judge Georgians like that? Why pick on where Stalin was born instead of where he went to school, or where he ruled? How do you even form a stereotype from one example? But should you lump Communists and people who praise Stalin unironically in with the madman? That's far more reasonable, because you have tons and tons of data and history to draw from. Commies are evil, in part because the ones who aren't get killed in the revolution by the ones who are.
I don't need to go on, you're just pulling out wild strawmen here that don't even make sense. In fact, you are actually arguing against your own point. You're picking out the exceptions to the stereotypes. No one assumes Japanese are all crazy death cultists, or that tribbles (whatever got censored) are anything like someone as deliberately provocative and flamboyant as Milo. They are obvious standouts, just like Stalin, the Westboro church, etc.
Stereotypes exist not from one example but from many. We form stereotypes because they are based on patterns. Most are actually totally harmless, like thinking Asians are good at math, but others are important for safety.
Should not a black person be concerned if a bunch of people in white hoods walk up to their home? To prejudge the hooded people is a stereotype too. It could be Halloween. It could be a prank, and I'd say these days, that's where the likely truth is. Yet, the stereotype and prejudice still exist for good reason. Being open minded is ideal, and being prepared to have the exception proven is important, but totally reject it at your peril.
Given the people and equipment on hand, I think Picard and crew will modify some Borg nanoprobes to have them only partially modify the target's behavior rather than make them a full on drone. They then infect the Federation populace with these nanoprobes and then program the people to be more accommodating of refugees and synths.
Comments
Sorry for the rant but I just really am upset by the portrayal of the federation in the show.
you were saying? even though that example was another reality, if that one had it, then there's a high chance the prime reality did too
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
That neither goes against my complaints or supports them. It was an alternate universe that was so different that the controls of the ship weren't easily recognizeable by Worf. Along with the many other changes in that universe it could be that they had shipyards on the surface. But the shipyards on the surface would not be nearly as important since just about every shipyard whether around earth or jupiter is shown to be in space (which makes sense, its going to be a lot easier to built something when you don't have to worry about gravity and weight)
that reason is why we see so many terrestrial shipyards in addition to orbital facilities in star wars too
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Oh, please. Bigotry didn't go away in Star Trek. Even in TNG it just got redirected.
One, why is the species of his grandfather relevant to his own enlistment in the first place?
Two, why do you think he felt he needed to lie about it?
Bonus question: Are you aware of where the phrase "grandfather clause" comes from?
Furthermore, for a racist meta-message, treating "race", "culture", and "species" as identical as a reinforcement of stereotyping, and the recurring trope of a multi-species hybrid being "trapped between worlds" as a negative commentary on interracial relationships. (Essay written by a Canadian of Chinese descent with a wife of German descent.)
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Star Trek was never supposed to be a perfect utopia, the point was always that they were striving for the goal (and a lot further along than today) but still had a ways to go, and trying to live up to those ideals formed a large part of the tone of the show. That fact that it was post-scarcity and peer pressure actively discouraged greed and hoarding just confuse a lot of viewers into thinking it is supposed to already be a utopia.
A post-scarcity civilization is as close to a utopia that we can get without altering human nature. As long as there is food, water, shelter, safety, and entertainment for everyone, then most people will be satisfied. Most crimes are done due to someone lacking a need. However, most of the crimes not related to lacking a need can be mitigated through entertainment. Realistic virtual worlds would be able to satisfy almost everyone. If someone wants to be Hugh Hefner in his prime, then just have someone create a virtual world of his life. The only thing missing in a post-scarcity civilization is purpose.
Everyone would be trapped in a virtual world of their own choosing. Existing in virtual worlds would reduce our carbon footprint since we would only need power for our life supports, water purifiers, and to run our virtual worlds and manufacturing nutrients, . There is no need for travel, transporting food from thousands of kilometers away, most manufacturing facilities, or most of the things required for modern civilization. So in order to save our planet, then everyone should be put in virtual worlds.
> * "Scorpion Wass zzz zzz, 2,1a,, esawqs,, @6sqe1q34131": Janeway assumes the non-humanoid Species 8472 are worse than the humanoid Borg and commits acts of war against a neutral species over it.
Actually 8472 dealt the first blow. Because of the actions of one milky way denizen they attacked any other in sight.
Janeway was more finding a the enemy of my enemy solution.
She can't really be held responsible for what happened to arcturus
In general, Trek has not been a "dark" show. Obviously DS9 was, and hell, I loved it. But most Trek wasn't like that, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with the folks who miss THAT kind of Trek. Recent example: most people seemed to enjoy s2 of disco more than s1. The first season was just another grimdark modern scifi show, but the second season actually started to feel like it was Trek again.
So anyway, stop trying to strawman what people are actually saying. People AREN'T saying the federation was perfect. But some people just miss the more positive Trek vibe and don't want just another grimdark show like every other new scifi show in recent years.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Generally speaking, I do too. True Detective S1 and Chenobyl are two of my all time faves, and dark as hell. I also loved the new BSG. But there is a difference between liking/prefering dark shows(in general) and wanting everything to be dark. There is also a difference between loving DS9, and wanting all Trek to feel like DS9. So yeah, I love dark shows. But no, I don't want Trek to become just another grimdark scifi show like every other grimdark scifi show coming out now.
That said...I'm not judging a season by 1 episode. I'm just having a general discussion about these topics and themes.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
I disagree, but your opinion is your own, and mine is my own. BUT that's side-traking the actual topic... there was a *huge* thread on 10 Forward back when Cryptic still owned the game about this. Probably still archived on here.
--
I would like to point out for the others discussing the Hobus/Rom Sun "mistake" that perhaps it's not a mistake at all. This interview was an obvious hatchet-job. Picard was promised he wouldn't be asked certain questions, and they did so anyway. Deliberately misnaming the exploding star could have been a ploy to make the whole issue look like a fool's errand to start with. Just because it's the 24th century doesn't mean that there aren't gullible people watching only propaganda news.
- The production values are of course top notch.
- Seeing more of civilian Earth of the late 24th/early 25th century. (The Boston cityscape and other areas).
- That Earth may not be as 'Utopian' as TNG made out in that we have a reporter with a CLEAR agenda of not just giving an decorated Starfleet Admiral a 'Softball' interview. Picard was well known but had never talked about the fallout from the Mars incident; and she was there to grill him on it. (I will say, I also like that they did do older Picard right in that he was caught off guard, but in the end, instead of just walking off, he made a statement <--- Which is the same way he was through TNG's run.)
- That we find the Mars synth attack ended CENTURIES of terraforming efforts, ignited combustible gases in the upper atmosphere, killed 92,000 inhabitants; and that Mars is still burning/in flames a decade later <--- IE - What I like here is that hey, there IS a problem that 24th/25th century tech can't just magically reverse with some sort of particle/beam/etc. <--- Which was another TNG trope of the 1701-D with Data/Geordi and the Deflector Dish solving a major planatery catastrophe in the last five minutes (see TNG S5 ' "A Matter of Time" and TNG S7 - "Inheritance"). here was a disaster that couldn't just be teched away.
- I thought the aspect of Picard having nightmare's about Mars and Data combined was good; and I like the way they worked the dream about the painting and how it's related to Dahj AND Data was a nice touch.
- The ultimate death of Dahj (yep that was unexpected); although it was minimized by the fact they so loudly hit us viewers over the head (in MANY OBVIOUS WAYS) that - "Hey, there must be TWO of them way before the Daystrom 'nerd' scientist reveals that the only method of cloning that would allow for a synthetic to be 'fully humanlike' produces a pair of clones (how convenient.)
Stuff I Disliked:
- Sorry but I agree that overall the pacing in spots of the episode was abysmal. I like Stewart's acting, but they really dragged out sequences; (like the card game in Ten Forward - so yeah, where's all the TNG fans that complained about a lot of the scenes in various TRIBBLE episodes that they felt were just nostalgic fan service?) The scene went on way too long IMO and was there just to pander to TNG fan nostalgia - but hey it's TNG so that's different?).
- Where are the police after the assault in Dahj's apartment? They seem to quickly find Picard in France after that incident and return him home (and hell don't even question him about anything it appears) - but in the highly monitored near 25th century; three Romulan thugs teleport in, kill a Federation citizen, fire energy weapons; and are ultimately left dead on the floor - yet, no one (or sensor) in the building picks this up; or if they do - how does Dahj manage to spend the night at Picard's Vineyard, then teleport to France, etc. WITHOUT any sort of APB from some police agency somewhere? Are you trying to tell me something like this would go unnoticed in 'Utpopian' Boston for 12-24 hours? Dahj definitely has a citizen record/history as a citizne in the Federation. Shen was just accepted to the Daystrom Institute. Where ARE the Police after this major incident of 4 deaths and possible murder.
- Why, (after going through pretty great lengths with a database search and believing he's the only one who can help); does she run off? Sorry but the whole "I don't want to put anyone else in danger..." is just a bit weird if she's that frightened considering again, she DOESN'T go to the police or some authority in the Federation that would protect Civilians who are under armed threat? And WHY does she leave her necklace (something her farther specifically made for her) behind so easily AFTER Picard hands it directly back to her?
- And sorry, the whole "Mom I'm in trouble..."/and the supposed deep plant masquerading as Mom for at least a year or more (Dahj again appears to have a 'normal' liife for a while, has a boyfriend, was accepted into a prestigious Federation organization) IMMEDIATELY slips up and says "Go back to Picard..." - BEFORE Dahj mentions him...talk about an OVERUSED trope (and not just in Trek here). Please, Chabon is supposed to be a good writer, but falling back on such a tired old trope here? Just so they can drive home to the audience - "Hey something' not right about her..." <--- IDK 3 murdering Romulans appearing out of nowhere, slapping some sort of diagnostic device on her head, and mentioning - "She's not activated yet..."; and a minute later "She's activating!" and eh proceeds to kill them all ISN'T enough for the audience to pick all this up? Again, why all this extra padding to this particular character setup? Just so they can have a reason that the Romulan thugs don't beam in to th4 Vineyard and have a run in with Picard's Romulan house staff when they try to kidnap Dajh?
- Picard's high tech storage trailer in the "Starfleet Quantum Archives". :wtf: Do all Starfleet personnel (including one who completely resigned his commission in protest) get a 100% secure "their eyes only" area (where even the Index Hologram won't divulge what's there)? Why wasn't some (or most) of this stuff not at the Vineyard where Picard makes his home? It seems to have a lot of security as we learn when Dahj disappears and runs off to France. And he ALREADY recognized Dahj in the painting hanging at his home - so why the need to go to the Archives to begin with - except because they now need a neutral place (IE not the Vineyard with Picard's Romulan house staff there.)
- And with respect to Dahj showing up out of nowhere. Doesn't Picard have acess to the 24th/25th century version of the Internet, AND since he has a Quantum Archive Storage Unit' - wouldn't he still have some elevated access to do searches? IE - Why didn't Picard not even bother to do a minimal cursory lookup of Dahj's history/background after she first arrived? No, he just (pretty much out of the blue) asks only about her necklace and hands it directly back to her so she can place it on the table to leave it behind); sends her to her room, and goes straight to bed himself.
- I also think they probably could and should have saved the ACTUAL "Yes folks...there's a twin of Dahj..." reveal for the start of episode 2, but that's me. It's pretty standard to do it the way they did it, and it did add the reveal that yes, the Rolulans are studying a Borg cube...Dun...dun...dun...
Again, overall, I did enjoy it, and I agree that Patrick Stewart's is doing a really nice job here acting wise - and while I agree with others that they really did seem to be dragging some stuff out unnecessarily - it does set up an interesting situation, and does leave some interesting questions waiting to be answered.
That said, it's honestly still at about the same writing level as TRIBBLE with the way it handles fanservice, some tropes, and certain plot points and plot devices to move the story along;yet here we have a number of TNG fans who criticize TRIBBLE when it does it, but when using TNG characters that these fans love and really relate to, instead there comments are: "Now, this is the way to do it...great job!"
I will throw something out there that I think would be interesting if they go this route; but I doubt they will:
Data was completely destroyed and B-4 was a completely inferior android to Data. BUT - what about Lore. Yes Data shoots and deactivates him at the end of TNG S6 - "Descent II":
http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/253.htm ^^^
So yeah, I doubt they left Lore there - thus, a some point Lore should be sitting on a shelf somewhere (maybe he was even store in that Quantum Archive facility
What if (because again Data is destroyed and B-4 inferior) Maddox used Lore's positronic mcguffins as the basis for Starfleet Synth research going forward, and that's why all the Synths went Rogue and did what they did to Mars? Maddox may have ten realized his mistake, still had something from the actual Data and after being barred from further research did use that part of Data (and maybe some Borg tech which is why the Romulans are also interested), and off we go. hell a real twist would be the Dahj twins were made from a combination of Data's and Lore's mcguffins; OR that she's 100% from Lore, with adjustments from Maddox that he believes fixes the problems of his original Synth designs based off Lore. It would be great if Brent Spiner also reprised Lore (who of course would be destroyed in a noble sacrifice at the end to atone for his deeds - and saves Picard and Co.); and of course at the end Dahj either is left to live her life masquerading as a human; OR Picard of course manages to get Starfleet to see the ban on Synths is wrong, and they start making more with Dahj as a template and they get their rights back.
But yeah, probably not (and yeah, there's a lot of tropes there as well, but hey that's Star Trek; TOS, TNG, TRIBBLE, STP, doesn't matter.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Bigotry does not mean what you think it means. It is not a catch all term for any sort of negative opinion of a species or culture or something. Bigotry by definition, includes a total unwillingness to be convinced otherwise. A bigot is not someone who starts out suspicious of someone due to sterotypes but later realizes that person is actually okay. That ability to get past the stereotype prejudice completely precludes that person from being a bigot.
There is also a huge difference between the many things you listed, many of which are definitely not bigotry.
For example, the shows established Cardassians and Romulans as frequently treacherous and deceptive. it isn't therefore wrong for someone in Starfleet to be wary of treachery from those groups. It is established as common stereotype, and like most stereotypes it exists for a reason. A bigot is going to assume this to be true of an individual Cardassian and Romulan despite evidence to the contrary. A non-bigot expects treachery/deception from an individual because of past interaction/sterotype, but can change their opinion of them if they prove they don't fit the stereotype.
Yet, one has to ask here, why are Cardies and Rommies so willing to deceive other species, with the Romulans notorious for isolating themselves from other species? Why only see "bigotry" from the Starfleet/Federation point of view?
This established deception of these species is why Starfleet would want to know about someone connected to the Romulans. Not because they have pointy ears and a funny forehead, but because their family history involves being part of a secret antagonistic empire known for its deception. To lie about that history only furthers the idea that the liar could well be a spy as they are actively engaging in deception. Then of course there's a huge difference between putting people in camps because they have a certain heritage, versus simply asking to divulge those connections to research them and see if there is a potential spy connection there.
Data and the Doctor should need to fight to be recognized as sapient. It is an entirely new and unexpected issue to the Federation to deal with artificial intelligence that could even begin to appear as a sentient being. The default is obviously to assume no they aren't, because they were engineered. The question is where is the line? It isn't any kind of bigotry, it is an entirely rational question to ask, at what point does an AI become "human"? How does a civilization deal with artificial life when it frequently creates and uses them as tools? It isn't a simple question at all so confusing it with some kind of racism or prejudice is very silly.
Bashir's unique problem is that he is an augment, and the eugenics wars of Earth, as well as Khan were devastating lessons to learn. A doctor involved with eugenics is a really dangerous combination, so Starfleet is entirely in their right to be concerned. Yet was he kicked out? No, they recognized he isn't like Khan, they didn't make a gross generalization and ignore his individuality and proven record so this is clearly one that doesn't even belong in the list. But again, who is really the bigger problem? The genetically superior that see normal humans as lesser, which is even arguably true, or the people who want to prevent that sort of situation again and are wary of eugenics and augments?
It simply is not bigotry to have some preconceived notions, rely on stereotypes, or even prejudices when dealing with people you don't know or don't understand, especially if you know people similar to them have a reputation for acting a certain way. When that is all you know, you act on what you know. A bigot is someone unable to change from those defaults and overwrite them with knowledge of that individual as they learn about them.
Joanne Linville's character points out that the Romulans are a poor but proud people, and implies that they had to find other ways to defend themselves and accomplish their goals than simply going head to head with major foreign powers.
The interactions between Mark Lenard's Romulan commander, the old centurion, and the politically connected and treacherous weasel Decius reveal that Romulan society at that time was going though the same kind of flux that ancient Rome did when it fell from a Republic into an imperial system.
Those clues taken together paint a very clear picture, especially since DC Fontana and others involved in producing Star Trek have made comments about how it was actually being based on that period of Roman history. By the time TNG rolled around the Romulans had completed that fall and many of them actually were the stereotypical moustache-twirling villains by that point instead of honorable but pragmatic people reluctantly using subterfuge as a necessary part of their political/wartime toolkit.
Yeah, this is pretty much it. And even DS9 wasn't that dark. Its second half was dark, but even then, episodes not dealing directly with the war tended to be light and happy, and even though there were 800 million nameless invisible Cardassians dead, most of the main cast (with the exception of the Siskos) got a happy ending. Most importantly the Federation is largely portrayed as good thing with good people in it. The only meaningful dig at them is around the Maquis.
And what ran alongside and followed DS9? The relentlessly optimistic Voyager.
It's not a deal breaker with Picard for me, the current position of the Federation. But I'd hope it'll be expanded and nuanced during the series. Or that we get to see a Starfleet captain who isn't a dogmatic bureaucrat and maybe helps Picard and his rag-tag crew and doesn't get immediately sacked for it. Rather than the current picture which seems to be that everyone who we know to be good has either retired or taken matters into their own hands.
Amen. The Federation are the ultimate good guys to the point they are willing to throw their own CIA (Section 31) under the bus to keep those ideals in tact. Section 31 is devoted to the security of the Federation but every Captain who has ran up against them wants them gone despite fighting for the same goals....and for good reason. They live and die by their ideals which is why the Federation in Star Trek has been inspiring and why it really hits home when the Captains of the series do go off the deep end and all the crew gasps in horror as does the audience. The Dominion War was the ultimate fight for those ideas against an enemy who seeks to impose order among what they perceive as chaos, ironically the Dominion and Borg have a lot of philosophical similarities just for different reasons. The Federation and even the Klingon Empire feels the same way, to a degree has proven time and again that the ideals of peace and freedom for all species can be fought for and won. If anything it should have affirmed the Federation Constitution not completely obliterate it.
In the Federation there are no "the ends justify the means" even if its for good reasons.
It is possible that the Federation civilians grew tired with the number of wars Starfleet was involved with and isolationist sentiments reached a breaking point when the rogue synths rebelled. We only ever see the Starfleet side in the previous series not the civilian side.
Also instead of thinking of Star Trek Picard as a series think of it like a movie. The federation is in the wrong and Picard is gonna give them a speech and set them straight. If Insurrection was a ten episode series that first episode will be about how the federation is planning to force these people off the planet for the healing properties.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
My character Tsin'xing
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Does that look like treachery or dishonorable behavior to you?
Or does it look like Picard was a bloody idiot for not keeping his shields up in a war zone and doesn't want to admit it?
Actually, it's quite simple. The grandfather would have been vetted by the Federation's immigration service before he was allowed to enter the country, assuming he wasn't a Federation citizen already. So here's a crazy thought: how about we trust that the Federation has a justice system that targets people for crimes they have committed, rather than ones they might commit?
You failed the test, by the way. The "grandfather clause" originates from Jim Crow laws. It was a deliberately established loophole in voter registration restrictions designed to keep black people from voting, whereby you didn't have to pass the intentionally ridiculous voting tests if your grandfather was allowed to vote, which few blacks at enactment were because their grandfathers had been enslaved.
So what's the grandfather clause now? Are you not allowed to be in Starfleet if your grandfather was a Romulan? /sarcasm
The more likely solution is that Simon Tarses simply found it easier to live like a freaking person if people thought he was a quarter Vulcan instead, and it became so much a habit that it even ended up on his enlistment papers.
But should they need to do it repeatedly? Or should one legal precedent be enough? First Data, who already was judged sapient enough to matriculate to and graduate from Starfleet Academy, has to fight to avoid being literally vivisected to see what makes him tick, then he has to fight to keep custody of his "daughter", then the Doctor has to fight to have the right to own intellectual property.
Utterly. Wrong.
Julian avoided being court-martialed or forced to resign only because his father agreed to go to prison for having Julian enhanced without his consent, in exchange for Julian getting immunity. They paid lip service to him not being like Khan while in the same breath promoting the exact sort of genetic-determinist bigotry that I'm talking about in the above posts.
Stereotypes are often, frequently, not based on facts. Here's another crazy thought: how about you don't judge one individual by the actions of another? Do you judge all Christians by the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church? All Georgians by the actions of Josef Stalin? All Japanese by Aum Shinrikyo? All TRIBBLE people by Milo Yiannapoulos?
Or do you judge them individually, by their own actions?
I make a conscious decision to reject all stereotypes and let people prove themselves, or not, as the case may be. You should, too.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
> (Quote)
> Janeway sided with the enemy of all sapient life, one involved in a de facto state of war against her own government, against a species that had never before been contacted, based solely on a single encounter with a single soldier while she was blundering around in an active war zone, and against whom aforementioned enemy of all sapient life was the aggressor. That's treason, violation of the Prime Directive, violation of Directive 010, and conduct unbecoming. I've been through this argument so many times at this point I can practically recite it by rote, but I'm not interested in derailing the thread. And in any event I don't have to: https://qr.ae/TDkRvh
You just sound like someone who doesn't like voyager to be honest with you.
Its both. However, you seem to deliberately ignore the many other examples, that have earned Cardassians and Romulans their reputation. There is nothing wrong with someone starting off with that assumption in mind when dealing with them. Yes that is a prejudice and a stereotype. It is apparently well deserved. If you're an open minded person, you're open to them proving to be an exception or to proving the stereotype wrong. You are under no obligation to trust them just because they exist.
Do you trust a polar bear to babysit your child just because it might not be like other polar bears? No that would be stupid. You have to start from what you know and go from there. Nothing else is reasonable or rational.
The kid lied. Period. He lied. He did that himself. He is a liar. Whatever reason he did that, he did that himself. If he thought he would be discriminated against because Gramps was a Romulan, he could have proved it by being honest, then litigate for discriminating against him based on race/species/ethnicity or whatever in Federation Courts. Instead he lied.
If as you claim, Gramps was a citizen, that makes it even worse, because Gramps was accepted by the Federation, and the kid still went and lied. There is no defense here.
The origins of "grandfather clause" is utterly irrelevant here so I'm not sure why you brought it up.
Yes, you have to get a lot of legal precedent set for new issues like this. This is how the system works IRL. It is frustrating, difficult, but necessary. If you don't set the precedents or craft laws to extend legal protections, then you have nothing to work with.
Data and Doctor's difficulties were deliberately crafted to make us think about this stuff and how we should approach it. It is made all the more difficult by the fact we don't know what real "sentient" AI will ever look like yet. Data and Doctor were real people acting, which makes it all the more difficult to see them as things and thus so much easier to hate when Picard or Janeway or whoever did something unfair to them.
Yes, that is how it went, and nothing I said was incorrect. Incredulously you are calling it bigotry while simultaneously refusing to understand the problem at hand is the repeatedly demonstrated "bigotry" of genetically engineered people starting wars based on their genetic supremacy. The Federation has every interest in preventing that from happening again which is why genetic augmentation is outlawed.
Maybe you're not aware of this, but threatening someone with consequences they may not deserve themselves is a law enforcement tactic to get the actual guilty party who cares for that person to confess and admit guilt. Julian was guilty of no crime and despite the inquisition, he was not punished, but the guilty party (well one of them) was punished in the end. His parents were criminals.
Again, your definition of bigotry is wide and absurd. You can put up all the ridiculous strawmen you want, let me knock these down for you.
Do you judge all Christians by Westboro actions...or just people that go to the Westboro church despite the fact that they may not themselves be activists? Obviously if someone says they go to that church you assume they are like the activists. They may not be, but that is a reasonable stereotype to hold until they prove otherwise.
Georgians and Stalin? No, what reason is there to judge Georgians like that? Why pick on where Stalin was born instead of where he went to school, or where he ruled? How do you even form a stereotype from one example? But should you lump Communists and people who praise Stalin unironically in with the madman? That's far more reasonable, because you have tons and tons of data and history to draw from. Commies are evil, in part because the ones who aren't get killed in the revolution by the ones who are.
I don't need to go on, you're just pulling out wild strawmen here that don't even make sense. In fact, you are actually arguing against your own point. You're picking out the exceptions to the stereotypes. No one assumes Japanese are all crazy death cultists, or that tribbles (whatever got censored) are anything like someone as deliberately provocative and flamboyant as Milo. They are obvious standouts, just like Stalin, the Westboro church, etc.
Stereotypes exist not from one example but from many. We form stereotypes because they are based on patterns. Most are actually totally harmless, like thinking Asians are good at math, but others are important for safety.
Should not a black person be concerned if a bunch of people in white hoods walk up to their home? To prejudge the hooded people is a stereotype too. It could be Halloween. It could be a prank, and I'd say these days, that's where the likely truth is. Yet, the stereotype and prejudice still exist for good reason. Being open minded is ideal, and being prepared to have the exception proven is important, but totally reject it at your peril.
Given the people and equipment on hand, I think Picard and crew will modify some Borg nanoprobes to have them only partially modify the target's behavior rather than make them a full on drone. They then infect the Federation populace with these nanoprobes and then program the people to be more accommodating of refugees and synths.