I liked it and I'm excited to see how we continue. Most of what I disliked about DSC was absent here.
But I really don't like the intro. Those generic bland animations do nothing for me. But since everything has to look familiar now that's how we roll.
PICs overall plot seems to be somewhat generic as well. I am curious how it'll be sorted out, however nothing really surprising is going on. The activated martial arts android super hacker agent character is trope material at this point. And from the trailers we already know we even get a katana samurai romulan in the mix and he'll probably hook up with robot girl, I just hope PIC will spare us gracious nude scenes 😂
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
But I really don't like the intro. Those generic bland animations do nothing for me.
I hated the intro song, didn't sound like Trek at all. A better option imo would have been a slowed down violin rendition of the TNG theme.
Agree. Too many modern shows are going with a very generic sounding intro theme that is not actually memorable, because that's apparently what's trendy right now.
Having said that, I thought the show itself was pretty satisfying. It certainly didn't have me on the edge of my seat, but it's a return to quality over action.
I was hoping that Blue Skies was the intro since it is at least iconic and links TNG to Picard, but the theme is only good for easy listening not something to represent a Star Trek series.
> @valoreah said: > (Quote) > > It did not make sense for the Federation or Starfleet to act like they did in those situations either, and in each case, it was proven to be a rouge element/officer or the Federation having faulty or missing information.
Maybe the rogue element started winning as all the war and fear took it's toll on the population.
But I really don't like the intro. Those generic bland animations do nothing for me.
I hated the intro song, didn't sound like Trek at all. A better option imo would have been a slowed down violin rendition of the TNG theme.
I have to disagree. That theme reminded me a lot of Insurrection's soundtrack. It felt very right for the character.
SPOILERS
Overall, loved this first episode. Loved the reference to Maddox. The writers really seem to have done their research, unlike a certain other Star Trek series' first season... Sir Patrick is phenomenal as always. That scene after Dahj's death, where Picard chastises himself for spending so long isolated on the vineyard, all that was going through my mind was "now that's Captain Picard".
(Also, re:Mars burning, remember that Mars was being terraformed since ENT. The atmosphere was doubtless much denser by the time it was attacked.)
Not overjoyed with the presentation of Starfleet and the Federation. Not for "political" reasons (I'm actually of substantively the same political persuasion as Patrick Stewart, and the episode wasn't really political anyway), but because we've been watching Starfleet crews try and improve themselves, others, and protect what they believe in for six series, and the organisation as a whole is now being shown to be narrow-minded and incompetent. There were always mistakes and individuals who didn't live up to the ethos (Leighton, Dougherty), but now we're effectively told the whole lot of Starfleet is in the wrong and any of the previous 'heroes' that we know are going to appear, Picard, Seven, Riker & Troi, have left it.
Hopefully there'll be further filling in and, shocker, maybe they'll go as far as to not have it be as black and white as Picard painted it.
Now, the amount of words I've used there probably suggest I didn't like it. On the whole I actually did. Storyline has potential, Stewart was awesome, the atmos of the episode was good, and I like that they actually remembered who Maddox is, what he did for a living and made it plot relevant. So at least they haven't entirely thrown out 50 years of world building.
I really liked Dahj and was angry and sad over her (apparent?) death. Even if she has a twin sister... It's not the same. (I guess I might not be so unique feeling like that, but if I am, maybe it is because my sisters are twins -and they are obviously unique are in many regards quite different..)
Yeah, I was disappointed with how callously she was disposed of in the story. Even if she isn't resurrected, I hope they revisit her death and treat it with respect and we don't get a forced happy ending where they save her sister and therefore everything is peachy and Dahj barely gets another mention.
This is Trek, your moment of disbelief should have started with the showing of the Excelsior-class USS Hood in the TNG's first episode, a class that has been in service for over eighty years at that point.
Just fyi, B-52s have been in service for 65 years and are expected to be for another 30. So it's not unreasonable for the Excelsior class spaceframe to be in service for 90 years in Star Trek.
> @skhc said: > Not overjoyed with the presentation of Starfleet and the Federation. Not for "political" reasons (I'm actually of substantively the same political persuasion as Patrick Stewart, and the episode wasn't really political anyway), but because we've been watching Starfleet crews try and improve themselves, others, and protect what they believe in for six series, and the organisation as a whole is now being shown to be narrow-minded and incompetent. There were always mistakes and individuals who didn't live up to the ethos (Leighton, Dougherty), but now we're effectively told the whole lot of Starfleet is in the wrong and any of the previous 'heroes' that we know are going to appear, Picard, Seven, Riker & Troi, have left it. > > Hopefully there'll be further filling in and, shocker, maybe they'll go as far as to not have it be as black and white as Picard painted it. > > Now, the amount of words I've used there probably suggest I didn't like it. On the whole I actually did. Storyline has potential, Stewart was awesome, the atmos of the episode was good, and I like that they actually remembered who Maddox is, what he did for a living and made it plot relevant. So at least they haven't entirely thrown out 50 years of world building. > (Quote) > > Yeah, I was disappointed with how callously she was disposed of in the story. Even if she isn't resurrected, I hope they revisit her death and treat it with respect and we don't get a forced happy ending where they save her sister and therefore everything is peachy and Dahj barely gets another mention. > (Quote) > > Just fyi, B-52s have been in service for 65 years and are expected to be for another 30. So it's not unreasonable for the Excelsior class spaceframe to be in service for 90 years in Star Trek.
I noticed how many people where upset about how "callously she was disposed of", who don't seem to care about the fact that here boyfriend was killed just as ruthlessly.
I wonder if it was because he was a male and she was female that they care more about her death then his?
I noticed how many people where upset about how "callously she was disposed of", who don't seem to care about the fact that here boyfriend was killed just as ruthlessly.
I wonder if it was because he was a male and she was female that they care more about her death then his?
The boyfriend's death is part of her motivation to find Picard to get the story started. Personally, I doubt we have seen the last of Dahj. If Picard could survive that explosion, then an android could survive it at a closer distance. After all, if we don't see a body, then they are not dead.
I noticed that at the end of the 1st episode, when they showed highlights from upcoming episodes, we get a brief glimpse of, what I take to be a modern Starfleet ship
It has a VERY U.S.S. Shenzou look to it.
> @lordgyor said: > I noticed how many people where upset about how "callously she was disposed of", who don't seem to care about the fact that here boyfriend was killed just as ruthlessly. > > I wonder if it was because he was a male and she was female that they care more about her death then his?
I wonder, maybe it was because he was a complete blank slate character that died in 40 seconds of total screentime not serving any purpose? Well, presumably he was motivation for her to start her quest simce his death "activated" her, but the scene wouldn't have been any different if she would have been alone.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
But I really don't like the intro. Those generic bland animations do nothing for me.
I hated the intro song, didn't sound like Trek at all. A better option imo would have been a slowed down violin rendition of the TNG theme.
I have to disagree. That theme reminded me a lot of Insurrection's soundtrack. It felt very right for the character.
SPOILERS
Overall, loved this first episode. Loved the reference to Maddox. The writers really seem to have done their research, unlike a certain other Star Trek series' first season... Sir Patrick is phenomenal as always. That scene after Dahj's death, where Picard chastises himself for spending so long isolated on the vineyard, all that was going through my mind was "now that's Captain Picard".
(Also, re:Mars burning, remember that Mars was being terraformed since ENT. The atmosphere was doubtless much denser by the time it was attacked.)
That Maddox attempts at building positronic brains wasn't forgotten when Data seems to be an important point in the show is good. However, I wouldn't consider it a sign they did better research than, say, the writers of Discovery. Discovery contained a lot of nods to the Star Trek history as well (even not forgotting something obscure as Robert April as former Captain of the Enterprise, a detail that had been floating around before but I believe wasn't even formally made canon until that point.). Maddox was a central element of Measure of a Man, one of the most-liked and recalled Picard/Data episodes, and also mentioned in a second episode centered around Data (Data's day). If you're making a show about positronics and the role and laws for synthetic life in Star Trek post TNG, he is hard to miss. (Of course, he could still be easily ignored.)
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
But I really don't like the intro. Those generic bland animations do nothing for me.
I hated the intro song, didn't sound like Trek at all. A better option imo would have been a slowed down violin rendition of the TNG theme.
I have to disagree. That theme reminded me a lot of Insurrection's soundtrack. It felt very right for the character.
SPOILERS
Overall, loved this first episode. Loved the reference to Maddox. The writers really seem to have done their research, unlike a certain other Star Trek series' first season... Sir Patrick is phenomenal as always. That scene after Dahj's death, where Picard chastises himself for spending so long isolated on the vineyard, all that was going through my mind was "now that's Captain Picard".
(Also, re:Mars burning, remember that Mars was being terraformed since ENT. The atmosphere was doubtless much denser by the time it was attacked.)
That Maddox attempts at building positronic brains wasn't forgotten when Data seems to be an important point in the show is good. However, I wouldn't consider it a sign they did better research than, say, the writers of Discovery. Discovery contained a lot of nods to the Star Trek history as well (even not forgotting something obscure as Robert April as former Captain of the Enterprise, a detail that had been floating around before but I believe wasn't even formally made canon until that point.). Maddox was a central element of Measure of a Man, one of the most-liked and recalled Picard/Data episodes, and also mentioned in a second episode centered around Data (Data's day). If you're making a show about positronics and the role and laws for synthetic life in Star Trek post TNG, he is hard to miss. (Of course, he could still be easily ignored.)
Reread my post:
unlike a certain other Star Trek series' first season...
DSC's first season was, frankly, a mess as far as existing continuity went. Luckily they kept it separated enough that it didn't really outright contradict existing canon, but they didn't do much to integrate it either. They improved that massively with Season 2. But with PIC they seem to be getting it right straight out of the gate.
Actually, one of the things I'm not sure about with the show is the Romulan makeup, which we get to see a bit of thanks to Picard's vintners. This is nitpicking, because there's nothing really "wrong" with the makeup. I just miss the forehead ridge the TNG/ENT Romulans had.
I noticed how many people where upset about how "callously she was disposed of", who don't seem to care about the fact that here boyfriend was killed just as ruthlessly.
I wonder if it was because he was a male and she was female that they care more about her death then his?
Yes, that's clearly my problem, he was a man and like all good, woke SJWs, I don't care about men. Especially myself.
It definitely wasn't beacuse Dahj was dangled in front of us through the trailers as a main character, given some actual character development and importance before being snuffed out, and that Picard's distress over her death seemed to disappear once he found out she has a twin. Like, no way was it that.
Not really a "complaint"; well maybe a very minor critique, but I thought it was "strange" how Daystrom institute actually looked less advanced than TNG. To explain, the sets in TNG were this imaginary future that didn't actually look like a real place. Daystrom looked like a real modern office setting with those desks and office chairs with wheels. There is a trend in modern sci-fi to just take a modern labs/offices and just add holograms to them to make it look futuristic, and I'm not saying it's bad. But in comparison to existing Trek it actually looks like a technological step backwards, in a strange way.
star trek picard premieres with the biggest audience in the history of ctv sci-fi channel.
Canadians love their Star Trek, hence why Bell Media owners of CTV Sci-Fi aka Space (hate, hate, hate the name change of the channel), and the Canadian and Ontario governments have have gone all in.
> @skhc said: > (Quote) > > Yes, that's clearly my problem, he was a man and like all good, woke SJWs, I don't care about men. Especially myself. > > It definitely wasn't beacuse Dahj was dangled in front of us through the trailers as a main character, given some actual character development and importance before being snuffed out, and that Picard's distress over her death seemed to disappear once he found out she has a twin. Like, no way was it that.
This is my opinion as having grown up with Star Trek since I was 3 years old.
I personally found Picard to be antithetical to Star Trek. The mere fact Starfleet would abandon its own court rulings to create a race of cybernetic slaves essentially goes against what came before. The fact Picard merely accepts this during his interview is also very troubling, Picard was irate in TNG, yet he was not so during ST:Picard. Specifically TNG "Measure of Man" and turned Bruce Maddox from a misguided ambitious scientist into the boogeyman. At the end of TNG, Maddox was not driven to get back at Data for setting his experiments. Maddox creating the twin sisters with Data's memories and positron brain also goes against his character, the man was the Chair of the Daystrom Institute of Robotics, what he supposedly accomplished would probably be performed by Starfleet Medical which also opens up a can of worms all its own. Starfleet has occasionally gone off the deep end but never has it done anything like what they did in ST: Picard. As steadfast as Capt. Janeway is to Starfleet even she would be appalled by the Federation's actions. By the way just because you have a positronic brain does not mean you turn into Jason Bourne, it takes time, Despite the fact Data in TNG was practically superhuman he still LEARNED as he went along, not just about humanity but himself as well, Data was not built for combat as he stated in TNG "The Hunted" when he captured Roga Danar.
What also pisses me off is the fact that again Starfleet abandons all precedent in this show. In Undiscovered Country, the Klingon moon Praxis exploded creating a crisis that Spock took special interest in which eventually lead to a Peace Treaty with the Klingons effectively ending their cold war and becoming allies as the Organians predicted. They could have done the same thing for the Romulans but decided to let them die like all those in Starfleet in the 23rd century wanted to do for the Klingons.
By the way if you want a shot of the Enterprise D that looks better then ST:Picard. Star Trek: Enterprise's "These are the Voyages" has the best shot of the Enterprise D bar none, and it looks ten times better then this.
I will give my full review to this so called Trek show later on another thread. I am not done.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "This planet smells, it must be the Klingons"
> @jake477 said: > This is my opinion as having grown up with Star Trek since I was 3 years old. > > I personally found Picard to be antithetical to Star Trek. The mere fact Starfleet would abandon its own court rulings to create a race of cybernetic slaves essentially goes against what came before. The fact Picard merely accepts this during his interview is also very troubling, Picard was irate in TNG, yet he was not so during ST:Picard. Specifically TNG "Measure of Man" and turned Bruce Maddox from a misguided ambitious scientist into the boogeyman. At the end of TNG, Maddox was not driven to get back at Data for setting his experiments. Maddox creating the twin sisters with Data's memories and positron brain also goes against his character, the man was the Chair of the Daystrom Institute of Robotics, what he supposedly accomplished would probably be performed by Starfleet Medical which also opens up a can of worms all its own. Starfleet has occasionally gone off the deep end but never has it done anything like what they did in ST: Picard. As steadfast as Capt. Janeway is to Starfleet even she would be appalled by the Federation's actions. By the way just because you have a positronic brain does not mean you turn into Jason Bourne, it takes time, Despite the fact Data in TNG was practically superhuman he still LEARNED as he went along, not just about humanity but himself as well, Data was not built for combat as he stated in TNG "The Hunted" when he captured Roga Danar. > > What also pisses me off is the fact that again Starfleet abandons all precedent in this show. In Undiscovered Country, the Klingon moon Praxis exploded creating a crisis that Spock took special interest in which eventually lead to a Peace Treaty with the Klingons effectively ending their cold war and becoming allies as the Organians predicted. They could have done the same thing for the Romulans but decided to let them die like all those in Starfleet in the 23rd century wanted to do for the Klingons. > > By the way if you want a shot of the Enterprise D that looks better then ST:Picard. Star Trek: Enterprise's "These are the Voyages" has the best shot of the Enterprise D bar none, and it looks ten times better then this. > > I will give my full review to this so called Trek show later on another thread. I am not done.
No one said anything about Synths being slaves in the episode, just that Rogue Synths attacked Mars, no reason given yet.
And a Bioniod Synth is still Synth, it's still has a Positronic brain and other similar Andriod traits, it's just that they are build using biological material to build it instead of what they use to build data. Perhaps he had help from a biologist or perhaps he has multiple degrees.
I will point out also that Starfleet did plan to help the Romulans and invested alot into it, I mean alot, before the Synth attack and we don't know why Star Fleet refused to rebuild and complete the original mission yet.
And also remember that the Federation was still recovering itself from the Dominion War and Borg attacks and who knows what else.
And Klingons were seen as a threat yes, when Praxis blew up, but they were seen as honourable, the Romulans were seen as treacherous.
And even in regards to Praxis there were Admirals and other forces in the federation that opposed helping the Klingons, Kirk had to beat the plot of internal forces within Starfleet to get peace with the Klingons and help them after Praxis exploded.
It's just that eventually enough bad stuff happened to the Federation that those isolationist forces ended up dominate, but they have always been there.
Heck I could see them backed up by the Essentialists.
The mere fact Starfleet would abandon its own court rulings to create a race of cybernetic slaves essentially goes against what came before.
I've only watched it once, but I don't recall them being described as 'slaves'. The term 'synthetic' is also very broad, we don't know if these were intended to be intelligent androids similar to Data or limited functionality machines similar to various droids in Star Wars. And I'd also like to point out that Voyager had an episode which showed that the non-Voyager copies of the Doctor program had been reassigned to mine dilithium. Sure, the EMHs weren't androids, but the Doctor did demonstrate their capability for intelligence and independent thought.
By the way just because you have a positronic brain does not mean you turn into Jason Bourne, it takes time, Despite the fact Data in TNG was practically superhuman he still LEARNED as he went along, not just about humanity but himself as well, Data was not built for combat as he stated in TNG "The Hunted" when he captured Roga Danar.
The impression I got was that she was already programed for combat, hence the lines about her 'activating'.
What also pisses me off is the fact that again Starfleet abandons all precedent in this show. In Undiscovered Country, the Klingon moon Praxis exploded creating a crisis that Spock took special interest in which eventually lead to a Peace Treaty with the Klingons effectively ending their cold war and becoming allies as the Organians predicted. They could have done the same thing for the Romulans but decided to let them die like all those in Starfleet in the 23rd century wanted to do for the Klingons.
I somewhat agree on this point. I really don't see how the non-human members of the Federation, especially the Vulcans, would abandon the Romulans over a completely unrelated attack on Mars. This is an instance where I think they were a bit too determined to make a specific political statement and as a result hurt the plot. I think it would have been better for relations between Federation members to have become strained over the event, or for a different faction to have refused giving aid to the Romulans (the Klingons perhaps?). Parallels to IRL politics are fine, but they need to fit with existing Canon.
> @evilmark444 said: > (Quote) > I've only watched it once, but I don't recall them being described as 'slaves'. The term 'synthetic' is also very broad, we don't know if these were intended to be intelligent androids similar to Data or limited functionality machines similar to various droids in Star Wars. And I'd also like to point out that Voyager had an episode which showed that the non-Voyager copies of the Doctor program had been reassigned to mine dilithium. Sure, the EMHs weren't androids, but the Doctor did demonstrate their capability for intelligence and independent thought.(Quote) > The impression I got was that she was already programed for combat, hence the lines about her 'activating'.(Quote) > I somewhat agree on this point. I really don't see how the non-human members of the Federation, especially the Vulcans, would abandon the Romulans over a completely unrelated attack on Mars. This is an instance where I think they were a bit too determined to make a specific political statement and as a result hurt the plot. I think it would have been better for relations between Federation members to have become strained over the event, or for a different faction to have refused giving aid to the Romulans (the Klingons perhaps?). Parallels to IRL politics are fine, but they need to fit with existing Canon.
We are one episode in, that might be answered in future episodes
As a Millennial (I really hate that term by the way) I have watched a ton of Star Trek growing up and still do. What I just watched on Star Trek Picard is NOT....repeat NOT Star Trek. Its sci-fi with the logo printed on it. That goes the same for Discovery but that's not the issue here. I will break down in detail what they messed up and its a lot of it.
#1: Starfleet. We have been told time and again that Starfleet and the Federation is paradise, in DS9 specifically, everyone refers to Earth as a paradise. The Starfleet in this show is nothing like that. They completely threw past court rulings out the window to create a race of cybernetic slaves to build starships for them. Granted Starfleet has gone off the deep end before but it was based on new experimental thinking, not something that has been well established for centuries ie the barbarism of slavery. It completely destroys TNG "Measure of a Man" and turned Bruce Maddox from a misguided ambitious scientist into the boogeyman. Completely missing the fact he was Chairman of Robotics at the Daystrom Institute. The Data twins as I will refer to them here seems like something Starfleet Medical would create not someone who specializes in robotics, which again is disturbing. DS9 may not have been a paradise but it wasn't Earth, at this point in our future Earth should be a paradise. The Federation fought a cataclysmic war to ensure it remained that way!
#2. The Romulans. Starfleet has a golden opportunity to help out the Romulans in their time of need, just like they did for the Klingons when their moon Praxis exploded. Spock took a special interest in helping the Klingons which eventually lead to a treaty with the Federation and they became allies. They could have done the same thing here following the example of Spock but when it became too difficult to help out a dying race after the Mars Revolt they simply left the Romulans to essentially die. This again goes against everything Starfleet had fought for hundreds of years, Picard even said as much in Star Trek Nemesis in the Romulan Senate. Where the hell where the Vulcans coming to the defense of their lost cousins? Nowhere? I thought the Federation learned from its mistakes not make the same ones of the past. I'm not asking for ST:Picard to represent a perfect world but at least get some things right, in Star Trek the Federation are supposed to be for the most part....GOOD. That's why its so shocking to see ST: Insurrection and why it hits home. The Romulans were also an EMPIRE with a vast territory and resources, you are telling me they didn't have the warbirds to evacuate their own people? Come on CBS.
#3. The Data Twins. First off all lets make one thing really clear. Just because you have a positronic brain does NOT mean you turn into Jason Bourne in an instant of danger. Data even said he was NOT built for combat in TNG "The Hunted" what was shown on screen was something Roga Danar could do as a conditioned trained solider not an enhanced university student. Also in Star Trek, we have seen how the Federation and Starfleet have frowned on enhanced individuals like the Data twins for fear they would become another Khan Noonien Singh. Dr. Bashir had to go through a bit of heat when he was discovered to be genetically enhanced and his father had to go to prison for it. What Bruce Maddox did again breaks Federation precedent and you are telling me they never checked her out before she got into the school? A positronic brain should have been easy to detect with the information they had on file when creating a race of cybernetic slaves.
#4 Picard: Finally we come to the man himself. Captain Picard. I am grateful they did not turn Picard into another Jake Skywalker, you see he is not as bitter which is a blessing. However Picard does things in what I feel there are several character violations that need to be addressed. If there was one thing I got from TNG is that Picard loves to work within systems and a process. You can't do that outside of Starfleet. In Star Trek Insurrection we see Picard going against Starfleet to REFORM it not abandon it completely. The acceptance of the Soong android slaves on Mars was also disturbing as he was shown in "Measure of Man" highly pissed off at the prospect of Data being used to create said race of slaves. I would think Picard would raise holy hell about this long before Starfleet turned their backs on Romulus, but simply he brushes past it in the interview like he accepts it. The promotion also too is kind of odd considering his chat with Captain Kirk in Generations, seems to me Picard fell into the same trap as did Kirk in the movies, as Captain you can make a difference in that Chair, you can't as an Admiral. Some officers do adapt well to it like Admiral Janeway and Admiral Archer but not so with Kirk or Picard which is why they are so endearing. I always thought Picard had the wisdom to avoid what Kirk did in the TMP movies. Picard returning to France where he family died in a house fire seems interesting too, Picard has a rough time with past memories espically bad ones....Star Trek First Contact is a great example and even this show does it well, seeing him in a similar house near where his brother Robert and nephew died is odd. You can't even bring up the Borg or Romulans now without getting his blood pressure up but it seems fine in a house with such sad memories.
There you have it.....If you have any more please feel free to reply.
Post edited by jake477 on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "This planet smells, it must be the Klingons"
star trek picard premieres with the biggest audience in the history of ctv sci-fi channel.
Canadians love their Star Trek, hence why Bell Media owners of CTV Sci-Fi aka Space (hate, hate, hate the name change of the channel), and the Canadian and Ontario governments have have gone all in.
At least it is better than the Sci-Fi Channel being turned into the Syfy Channel.
The mere fact Starfleet would abandon its own court rulings to create a race of cybernetic slaves essentially goes against what came before.
I've only watched it once, but I don't recall them being described as 'slaves'. The term 'synthetic' is also very broad, we don't know if these were intended to be intelligent androids similar to Data or limited functionality machines similar to various droids in Star Wars. And I'd also like to point out that Voyager had an episode which showed that the non-Voyager copies of the Doctor program had been reassigned to mine dilithium. Sure, the EMHs weren't androids, but the Doctor did demonstrate their capability for intelligence and independent thought.
By the way just because you have a positronic brain does not mean you turn into Jason Bourne, it takes time, Despite the fact Data in TNG was practically superhuman he still LEARNED as he went along, not just about humanity but himself as well, Data was not built for combat as he stated in TNG "The Hunted" when he captured Roga Danar.
The impression I got was that she was already programed for combat, hence the lines about her 'activating'.
What also pisses me off is the fact that again Starfleet abandons all precedent in this show. In Undiscovered Country, the Klingon moon Praxis exploded creating a crisis that Spock took special interest in which eventually lead to a Peace Treaty with the Klingons effectively ending their cold war and becoming allies as the Organians predicted. They could have done the same thing for the Romulans but decided to let them die like all those in Starfleet in the 23rd century wanted to do for the Klingons.
I somewhat agree on this point. I really don't see how the non-human members of the Federation, especially the Vulcans, would abandon the Romulans over a completely unrelated attack on Mars. This is an instance where I think they were a bit too determined to make a specific political statement and as a result hurt the plot. I think it would have been better for relations between Federation members to have become strained over the event, or for a different faction to have refused giving aid to the Romulans (the Klingons perhaps?). Parallels to IRL politics are fine, but they need to fit with existing Canon.
If anything the Vulcans would be opposed to helping from the start. How many times had the Romulans specifically targeted Vulcan by this point? In Star Trek Countdown (not canon, I know), Spock, Picard and Data couldn't get the Vulcans to help prevent Romulus' destruction. They only cooperated after Romulus was already destroyed and it was clear the Hobus nova was a galactic threat.
As for everyone else, I think it depends. Remember how Cartwright referred to post-Khitomer Klingons becoming "the space trash of the galaxy"? I can easily see the border members like Bolarus being concerned their worlds would become mass refugee camps.
Also, clearly we expect Starfleet to completely rebuild the evacuation fleet. With what? We know of exactly three shipyards in Starfleet: San Francisco Fleet Yard, Utopia Planetia, and Antares, of which the second is consistently treated as by far the largest. Losing Utopia Planetia would cripple the Federation's shipbuilding capability. Then there's the scale of Federation lives lost on Mars and the shipyards, as the episode alludes to.
> @jake477 said: > As a Millennial (I really hate that term by the way) I have watched a ton of Star Trek growing up and still do. What I just watched on Star Trek Picard is NOT....repeat NOT Star Trek. Its sci-fi with the logo printed on it. That goes the same for Discovery but that's not the issue here. I will break down in detail what they messed up and its a lot of it. > > #1: Starfleet. We have been told time and again that Starfleet and the Federation is paradise, in DS9 specifically, everyone refers to Earth as a paradise. The Starfleet in this show is nothing like that. They completely threw past court rulings out the window to create a race of cybernetic slaves to build starships for them. Granted Starfleet has gone off the deep end before but it was based on new experimental thinking, not something that has been well established for centuries ie the barbarism of slavery. It completely destroys TNG "Measure of a Man" and turned Bruce Maddox from a misguided ambitious scientist into the boogeyman. Completely missing the fact he was Chairman of Robotics at the Daystrom Institute. The Data twins as I will refer to them here seems like something Starfleet Medical would create not someone who specializes in robotics, which again is disturbing. DS9 may not have been a paradise but it wasn't Earth, at this point in our future Earth should be a paradise. The Federation fought a cataclysmic war to ensure it remained that way! > > #2. The Romulans. Starfleet has a golden opportunity to help out the Romulans in their time of need, just like they did for the Klingons when their moon Praxis exploded. Spock took a special interest in helping the Klingons which eventually lead to a treaty with the Federation and they became allies. They could have done the same thing here following the example of Spock but when it became too difficult to help out a dying race after the Mars Revolt they simply left the Romulans to essentially die. This again goes against everything Starfleet had fought for hundreds of years, Picard even said as much in Star Trek Nemesis in the Romulan Senate. Where the hell where the Vulcans coming to the defense of their lost cousins? Nowhere? I thought the Federation learned from its mistakes not make the same ones of the past. I'm not asking for ST:Picard to represent a perfect world but at least get some things right, in Star Trek the Federation are supposed to be for the most part....GOOD. That's why its so shocking to see ST: Insurrection and why it hits home. The Romulans were also an EMPIRE with a vast territory and resources, you are telling me they didn't have the warbirds to evacuate their own people? Come on CBS. > > #3. The Data Twins. First off all lets make one thing really clear. Just because you have a positronic brain does NOT mean you turn into Jason Bourne in an instant of danger. Data even said he was NOT built for combat in TNG "The Hunted" what was shown on screen was something Roga Danar could do as a conditioned trained solider not an enhanced university student. Also in Star Trek, we have seen how the Federation and Starfleet have frowned on enhanced individuals like the Data twins for fear they would become another Khan Noonien Singh. Dr. Bashir had to go through a bit of heat when he was discovered to be genetically enhanced and his father had to go to prison for it. What Bruce Maddox did again breaks Federation precedent and you are telling me they never checked her out before she got into the school? A positronic brain should have been easy to detect with the information they had on file when creating a race of cybernetic slaves. > > #4 Picard: Finally we come to the man himself. Captain Picard. I am grateful they did not turn Picard into another Jake Skywalker, you see he is not as bitter which is a blessing. However Picard does things in what I feel there are several character violations that need to be addressed. If there was one thing I got from TNG is that Picard loves to work within systems and a process. You can't do that outside of Starfleet. In Star Trek Insurrection we see Picard going against Starfleet to REFORM it not abandon it completely. The acceptance of the Soong android slaves on Mars was also disturbing as he was shown in "Measure of Man" highly pissed off at the prospect of Data being used to create said race of slaves. I would think Picard would raise holy hell about this long before Starfleet turned their backs on Romulus, but simply he brushes past it in the interview like he accepts it. The promotion also too is kind of odd considering his chat with Captain Kirk in Generations, seems to me Picard fell into the same trap as did Kirk in the movies, as Captain you can make a difference in that Chair, you can't as an Admiral. Some officers do adapt well to it like Admiral Janeway and Admiral Archer but not so with Kirk or Picard which is why they are so endearing. I always thought Picard had the wisdom to avoid what Kirk did in the TMP movies. Picard returning to France where he family died in a house fire seems interesting too, Picard has a rough time with past memories espically bad ones....Star Trek First Contact is a great example and even this show does it well, seeing him in a similar house near where his brother Robert and nephew died is odd. You can't even bring up the Borg or Romulans now without getting his blood pressure up but it seems fine in a house with such sad memories. > > > There you have it.....If you have any more please feel free to reply.
1# Earth and other core worlds were relative utopian meaning no poverty, free healthcare, housing, and everyone has all the needed essentials plus luxuries, not that it's an absolute utopia were there are no issues and everyone is happy 24/7. I saw nothing that changed that in ST: Picard, Earth is gorgeous especially his vineyard, and the cities beautiful and clean with no homeless people suffering. This is not some Blade Runner Distopia. Even DS9 Earth almost ended up in Authoritarian hands thanks to Admiral Layton.
2. Starfleet did try and help the Romulans at first, in a huge way, then the Synths attacked and sabotaged it. We still don't know why they did it, nor why Starfleet refused to rebuild its ferries and try again although honestly it likely would have been too late by then anyways.
3. Clearly Dahj and Soji have some very different programming then Data ever did, and in fact they are far more advanced then Data, his bit of brains were a key starting point, not the end of development, so it makes sense they might have capabilities Data did not, especially since they are more under threat then Data from their beginning.
4. We see that Picard regrets how he handled Star Fleet by resigning, he just got frustrated and snapped resigning. And we don't know the Synths were slaves. We don't know anything about them except that they attacked Mars having gone wrong. We don't why or who built them or what for. It's been one episode.
1# Earth and other core worlds were relative utopian meaning no poverty, free healthcare, housing, and everyone has all the needed essentials plus luxuries, not that it's an absolute utopia were there are no issues and everyone is happy 24/7. I saw nothing that changed that in ST: Picard, Earth is gorgeous especially his vineyard, and the cities beautiful and clean with no homeless people suffering. This is not some Blade Runner Distopia. Even DS9 Earth almost ended up in Authoritarian hands thanks to Admiral Layton.
And we haven't seen how Federation civilians react to Starfleet in previous series. A good portion of the Federation might think that Starfleet sticks its nose in business where it doesn't belong. Which results in the Federation suffering for it.
I have not seen PIC yet, but from the talk here it sounds like they changed the plotline from the first Kelvin movie background. In that there was a serious effort to help the Romulans (or at least those in their capital world, which seemed to be the only one in danger at that point) using a plan developed by the Vulcan Science Institute. The fact that it did not work did not mean the effort was not put in, just that there was not enough time to adapt it to the real situation when Spock got there. And if Spock got there late using one of the fastest ships they had there is little chance that troop transports, liners, and freighters could get to the Romulan capital in time to do anything but help with disaster relieve after the fact.
It also sounds like they dredged up that idiotic notion that large, multi-world cultures like the RSE, the Federation, the Klingons, the Iconians (and it supposedly actually happened to the Iconians), and others would simply collapse and all the people die off or whatever if their capital is destroyed. It is ridiculous at best, it would be like saying that if a hurricane took out Washington DC like Katrina did New Orleans the entire US would immediately cease to exist, possibly devolving into a Mad Max style wasteland or simply emptying out. It is one of the worst of the worst of the immersion breaking logic gaffs during the Birman era of Trek.
STO got it right in that it was not the destruction of the homeworld itself that caused the RSE to collapse, it was the political infighting, economic troubles from disrupted manufacturing chains, the Tal'Shiar treachery, and outright sabotage from outside the empire that caused it to self-destruct. It was not just the Birman schtick of (to paraphrase a certain racoon) "boo hoo, the homeworld is dead and we are all doomed".
DSC's first season was, frankly, a mess as far as existing continuity went. Luckily they kept it separated enough that it didn't really outright contradict existing canon, but they didn't do much to integrate it either. They improved that massively with Season 2. But with PIC they seem to be getting it right straight out of the gate.
Actually, one of the things I'm not sure about with the show is the Romulan makeup, which we get to see a bit of thanks to Picard's vintners. This is nitpicking, because there's nothing really "wrong" with the makeup. I just miss the forehead ridge the TNG/ENT Romulans had.
Getting it right from the start would be a refreshing change, the only other Trek that fully accomplished that was TOS (though DS9 came close). TNG was a very close call for instance since the first season was so bad that a lot of Trek fans just watched it to keep the viewer numbers up in the hope that the writers would eventually pull their heads out and get it right (which began to happen by the end of the first season).
As for the forehead ridges, not all Romulans have them (as shown by Mark Lenard's and Joanne Linville's characters), just like some Vulcans have ridges and some do not. The fact more Romulans seem to have them than Vulcans could mean that the followers of Surak (who did not have the ridges btw) probably came from areas/cultures where the smooth foreheads were more common and the ones who left were probably from ones where the ridges were more common than smooth. It is also possible that the proto-Romulans picked up some other Vulcanoids (like Mintokans) who had heavier ridges than the average Vulcan, or that the ridges are an outward sign of some trait that helps with survival on Romulus (some novels have suggested it helped them process more humid air so they were less likely to get pneumonia, others that it has something to do with a higher tolerance for iron).
As for the AI stuff, the Federation way back in TOS had a certain paranoia and even slight intolerance toward AIs, which the M5 incident reinforced.
For instance, in "Tomorrow Is Yesterday" it was brought out that they usually kept a very tight leash on the ship's computer and if you let it go too long without "overhauls" it would start getting quirky. In that episode they got the overhaul at a world where the locals decided to shape the quirkiness along benign lines and let the computer have a more active role and personality instead of the usual wipe it down to factory settings dullness thing. The crew did not like it though, the faux-flirty humor (and giggling) even irritated Spock.
Later, in TAS, the ship passed through an energy cloud that loosened up the locks on the AI and it developed a prankish sense of humor that quickly turned deadly since it did not understand humanoid frailties.
Generally it all correlated with the concept that AIs are more likely to develop in alien directions rather than human ones, and that trying to impose human morals and understanding on them (like the Daystrom engram overlay on the M5) is hit or miss at best. That concept appears a lot in sci-fi, for instance it is the central point of David Gerrold's novel "When HARLIE Was One".
Comments
But I really don't like the intro. Those generic bland animations do nothing for me. But since everything has to look familiar now that's how we roll.
PICs overall plot seems to be somewhat generic as well. I am curious how it'll be sorted out, however nothing really surprising is going on. The activated martial arts android super hacker agent character is trope material at this point. And from the trailers we already know we even get a katana samurai romulan in the mix and he'll probably hook up with robot girl, I just hope PIC will spare us gracious nude scenes 😂
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Think we should have a memorial for it in STO? (joke)
"It appears we have lost our sex appeal, captain."- Tuvok
I hated the intro song, didn't sound like Trek at all. A better option imo would have been a slowed down violin rendition of the TNG theme.
Agree. Too many modern shows are going with a very generic sounding intro theme that is not actually memorable, because that's apparently what's trendy right now.
Having said that, I thought the show itself was pretty satisfying. It certainly didn't have me on the edge of my seat, but it's a return to quality over action.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
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> It did not make sense for the Federation or Starfleet to act like they did in those situations either, and in each case, it was proven to be a rouge element/officer or the Federation having faulty or missing information.
Maybe the rogue element started winning as all the war and fear took it's toll on the population.
I have to disagree. That theme reminded me a lot of Insurrection's soundtrack. It felt very right for the character.
SPOILERS
Overall, loved this first episode. Loved the reference to Maddox. The writers really seem to have done their research, unlike a certain other Star Trek series' first season... Sir Patrick is phenomenal as always. That scene after Dahj's death, where Picard chastises himself for spending so long isolated on the vineyard, all that was going through my mind was "now that's Captain Picard".
(Also, re:Mars burning, remember that Mars was being terraformed since ENT. The atmosphere was doubtless much denser by the time it was attacked.)
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Hopefully there'll be further filling in and, shocker, maybe they'll go as far as to not have it be as black and white as Picard painted it.
Now, the amount of words I've used there probably suggest I didn't like it. On the whole I actually did. Storyline has potential, Stewart was awesome, the atmos of the episode was good, and I like that they actually remembered who Maddox is, what he did for a living and made it plot relevant. So at least they haven't entirely thrown out 50 years of world building.
Yeah, I was disappointed with how callously she was disposed of in the story. Even if she isn't resurrected, I hope they revisit her death and treat it with respect and we don't get a forced happy ending where they save her sister and therefore everything is peachy and Dahj barely gets another mention.
Just fyi, B-52s have been in service for 65 years and are expected to be for another 30. So it's not unreasonable for the Excelsior class spaceframe to be in service for 90 years in Star Trek.
> Not overjoyed with the presentation of Starfleet and the Federation. Not for "political" reasons (I'm actually of substantively the same political persuasion as Patrick Stewart, and the episode wasn't really political anyway), but because we've been watching Starfleet crews try and improve themselves, others, and protect what they believe in for six series, and the organisation as a whole is now being shown to be narrow-minded and incompetent. There were always mistakes and individuals who didn't live up to the ethos (Leighton, Dougherty), but now we're effectively told the whole lot of Starfleet is in the wrong and any of the previous 'heroes' that we know are going to appear, Picard, Seven, Riker & Troi, have left it.
>
> Hopefully there'll be further filling in and, shocker, maybe they'll go as far as to not have it be as black and white as Picard painted it.
>
> Now, the amount of words I've used there probably suggest I didn't like it. On the whole I actually did. Storyline has potential, Stewart was awesome, the atmos of the episode was good, and I like that they actually remembered who Maddox is, what he did for a living and made it plot relevant. So at least they haven't entirely thrown out 50 years of world building.
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> Yeah, I was disappointed with how callously she was disposed of in the story. Even if she isn't resurrected, I hope they revisit her death and treat it with respect and we don't get a forced happy ending where they save her sister and therefore everything is peachy and Dahj barely gets another mention.
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> Just fyi, B-52s have been in service for 65 years and are expected to be for another 30. So it's not unreasonable for the Excelsior class spaceframe to be in service for 90 years in Star Trek.
I noticed how many people where upset about how "callously she was disposed of", who don't seem to care about the fact that here boyfriend was killed just as ruthlessly.
I wonder if it was because he was a male and she was female that they care more about her death then his?
The boyfriend's death is part of her motivation to find Picard to get the story started. Personally, I doubt we have seen the last of Dahj. If Picard could survive that explosion, then an android could survive it at a closer distance. After all, if we don't see a body, then they are not dead.
It has a VERY U.S.S. Shenzou look to it.
> I noticed how many people where upset about how "callously she was disposed of", who don't seem to care about the fact that here boyfriend was killed just as ruthlessly.
>
> I wonder if it was because he was a male and she was female that they care more about her death then his?
I wonder, maybe it was because he was a complete blank slate character that died in 40 seconds of total screentime not serving any purpose? Well, presumably he was motivation for her to start her quest simce his death "activated" her, but the scene wouldn't have been any different if she would have been alone.
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That Maddox attempts at building positronic brains wasn't forgotten when Data seems to be an important point in the show is good. However, I wouldn't consider it a sign they did better research than, say, the writers of Discovery. Discovery contained a lot of nods to the Star Trek history as well (even not forgotting something obscure as Robert April as former Captain of the Enterprise, a detail that had been floating around before but I believe wasn't even formally made canon until that point.). Maddox was a central element of Measure of a Man, one of the most-liked and recalled Picard/Data episodes, and also mentioned in a second episode centered around Data (Data's day). If you're making a show about positronics and the role and laws for synthetic life in Star Trek post TNG, he is hard to miss. (Of course, he could still be easily ignored.)
Reread my post:
DSC's first season was, frankly, a mess as far as existing continuity went. Luckily they kept it separated enough that it didn't really outright contradict existing canon, but they didn't do much to integrate it either. They improved that massively with Season 2. But with PIC they seem to be getting it right straight out of the gate.
Actually, one of the things I'm not sure about with the show is the Romulan makeup, which we get to see a bit of thanks to Picard's vintners. This is nitpicking, because there's nothing really "wrong" with the makeup. I just miss the forehead ridge the TNG/ENT Romulans had.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Yes, that's clearly my problem, he was a man and like all good, woke SJWs, I don't care about men. Especially myself.
It definitely wasn't beacuse Dahj was dangled in front of us through the trailers as a main character, given some actual character development and importance before being snuffed out, and that Picard's distress over her death seemed to disappear once he found out she has a twin. Like, no way was it that.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
star trek picard premieres with the biggest audience in the history of ctv sci-fi channel.
Canadians love their Star Trek, hence why Bell Media owners of CTV Sci-Fi aka Space (hate, hate, hate the name change of the channel), and the Canadian and Ontario governments have have gone all in.
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> Yes, that's clearly my problem, he was a man and like all good, woke SJWs, I don't care about men. Especially myself.
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> It definitely wasn't beacuse Dahj was dangled in front of us through the trailers as a main character, given some actual character development and importance before being snuffed out, and that Picard's distress over her death seemed to disappear once he found out she has a twin. Like, no way was it that.
I give your use of Sarcasm a 7/10.
I personally found Picard to be antithetical to Star Trek. The mere fact Starfleet would abandon its own court rulings to create a race of cybernetic slaves essentially goes against what came before. The fact Picard merely accepts this during his interview is also very troubling, Picard was irate in TNG, yet he was not so during ST:Picard. Specifically TNG "Measure of Man" and turned Bruce Maddox from a misguided ambitious scientist into the boogeyman. At the end of TNG, Maddox was not driven to get back at Data for setting his experiments. Maddox creating the twin sisters with Data's memories and positron brain also goes against his character, the man was the Chair of the Daystrom Institute of Robotics, what he supposedly accomplished would probably be performed by Starfleet Medical which also opens up a can of worms all its own. Starfleet has occasionally gone off the deep end but never has it done anything like what they did in ST: Picard. As steadfast as Capt. Janeway is to Starfleet even she would be appalled by the Federation's actions. By the way just because you have a positronic brain does not mean you turn into Jason Bourne, it takes time, Despite the fact Data in TNG was practically superhuman he still LEARNED as he went along, not just about humanity but himself as well, Data was not built for combat as he stated in TNG "The Hunted" when he captured Roga Danar.
What also pisses me off is the fact that again Starfleet abandons all precedent in this show. In Undiscovered Country, the Klingon moon Praxis exploded creating a crisis that Spock took special interest in which eventually lead to a Peace Treaty with the Klingons effectively ending their cold war and becoming allies as the Organians predicted. They could have done the same thing for the Romulans but decided to let them die like all those in Starfleet in the 23rd century wanted to do for the Klingons.
By the way if you want a shot of the Enterprise D that looks better then ST:Picard. Star Trek: Enterprise's "These are the Voyages" has the best shot of the Enterprise D bar none, and it looks ten times better then this.
I will give my full review to this so called Trek show later on another thread. I am not done.
> This is my opinion as having grown up with Star Trek since I was 3 years old.
>
> I personally found Picard to be antithetical to Star Trek. The mere fact Starfleet would abandon its own court rulings to create a race of cybernetic slaves essentially goes against what came before. The fact Picard merely accepts this during his interview is also very troubling, Picard was irate in TNG, yet he was not so during ST:Picard. Specifically TNG "Measure of Man" and turned Bruce Maddox from a misguided ambitious scientist into the boogeyman. At the end of TNG, Maddox was not driven to get back at Data for setting his experiments. Maddox creating the twin sisters with Data's memories and positron brain also goes against his character, the man was the Chair of the Daystrom Institute of Robotics, what he supposedly accomplished would probably be performed by Starfleet Medical which also opens up a can of worms all its own. Starfleet has occasionally gone off the deep end but never has it done anything like what they did in ST: Picard. As steadfast as Capt. Janeway is to Starfleet even she would be appalled by the Federation's actions. By the way just because you have a positronic brain does not mean you turn into Jason Bourne, it takes time, Despite the fact Data in TNG was practically superhuman he still LEARNED as he went along, not just about humanity but himself as well, Data was not built for combat as he stated in TNG "The Hunted" when he captured Roga Danar.
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> What also pisses me off is the fact that again Starfleet abandons all precedent in this show. In Undiscovered Country, the Klingon moon Praxis exploded creating a crisis that Spock took special interest in which eventually lead to a Peace Treaty with the Klingons effectively ending their cold war and becoming allies as the Organians predicted. They could have done the same thing for the Romulans but decided to let them die like all those in Starfleet in the 23rd century wanted to do for the Klingons.
>
> By the way if you want a shot of the Enterprise D that looks better then ST:Picard. Star Trek: Enterprise's "These are the Voyages" has the best shot of the Enterprise D bar none, and it looks ten times better then this.
>
> I will give my full review to this so called Trek show later on another thread. I am not done.
No one said anything about Synths being slaves in the episode, just that Rogue Synths attacked Mars, no reason given yet.
And a Bioniod Synth is still Synth, it's still has a Positronic brain and other similar Andriod traits, it's just that they are build using biological material to build it instead of what they use to build data. Perhaps he had help from a biologist or perhaps he has multiple degrees.
I will point out also that Starfleet did plan to help the Romulans and invested alot into it, I mean alot, before the Synth attack and we don't know why Star Fleet refused to rebuild and complete the original mission yet.
And also remember that the Federation was still recovering itself from the Dominion War and Borg attacks and who knows what else.
And Klingons were seen as a threat yes, when Praxis blew up, but they were seen as honourable, the Romulans were seen as treacherous.
And even in regards to Praxis there were Admirals and other forces in the federation that opposed helping the Klingons, Kirk had to beat the plot of internal forces within Starfleet to get peace with the Klingons and help them after Praxis exploded.
It's just that eventually enough bad stuff happened to the Federation that those isolationist forces ended up dominate, but they have always been there.
Heck I could see them backed up by the Essentialists.
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> I've only watched it once, but I don't recall them being described as 'slaves'. The term 'synthetic' is also very broad, we don't know if these were intended to be intelligent androids similar to Data or limited functionality machines similar to various droids in Star Wars. And I'd also like to point out that Voyager had an episode which showed that the non-Voyager copies of the Doctor program had been reassigned to mine dilithium. Sure, the EMHs weren't androids, but the Doctor did demonstrate their capability for intelligence and independent thought.(Quote)
> The impression I got was that she was already programed for combat, hence the lines about her 'activating'.(Quote)
> I somewhat agree on this point. I really don't see how the non-human members of the Federation, especially the Vulcans, would abandon the Romulans over a completely unrelated attack on Mars. This is an instance where I think they were a bit too determined to make a specific political statement and as a result hurt the plot. I think it would have been better for relations between Federation members to have become strained over the event, or for a different faction to have refused giving aid to the Romulans (the Klingons perhaps?). Parallels to IRL politics are fine, but they need to fit with existing Canon.
We are one episode in, that might be answered in future episodes
#1: Starfleet. We have been told time and again that Starfleet and the Federation is paradise, in DS9 specifically, everyone refers to Earth as a paradise. The Starfleet in this show is nothing like that. They completely threw past court rulings out the window to create a race of cybernetic slaves to build starships for them. Granted Starfleet has gone off the deep end before but it was based on new experimental thinking, not something that has been well established for centuries ie the barbarism of slavery. It completely destroys TNG "Measure of a Man" and turned Bruce Maddox from a misguided ambitious scientist into the boogeyman. Completely missing the fact he was Chairman of Robotics at the Daystrom Institute. The Data twins as I will refer to them here seems like something Starfleet Medical would create not someone who specializes in robotics, which again is disturbing. DS9 may not have been a paradise but it wasn't Earth, at this point in our future Earth should be a paradise. The Federation fought a cataclysmic war to ensure it remained that way!
#2. The Romulans. Starfleet has a golden opportunity to help out the Romulans in their time of need, just like they did for the Klingons when their moon Praxis exploded. Spock took a special interest in helping the Klingons which eventually lead to a treaty with the Federation and they became allies. They could have done the same thing here following the example of Spock but when it became too difficult to help out a dying race after the Mars Revolt they simply left the Romulans to essentially die. This again goes against everything Starfleet had fought for hundreds of years, Picard even said as much in Star Trek Nemesis in the Romulan Senate. Where the hell where the Vulcans coming to the defense of their lost cousins? Nowhere? I thought the Federation learned from its mistakes not make the same ones of the past. I'm not asking for ST:Picard to represent a perfect world but at least get some things right, in Star Trek the Federation are supposed to be for the most part....GOOD. That's why its so shocking to see ST: Insurrection and why it hits home. The Romulans were also an EMPIRE with a vast territory and resources, you are telling me they didn't have the warbirds to evacuate their own people? Come on CBS.
#3. The Data Twins. First off all lets make one thing really clear. Just because you have a positronic brain does NOT mean you turn into Jason Bourne in an instant of danger. Data even said he was NOT built for combat in TNG "The Hunted" what was shown on screen was something Roga Danar could do as a conditioned trained solider not an enhanced university student. Also in Star Trek, we have seen how the Federation and Starfleet have frowned on enhanced individuals like the Data twins for fear they would become another Khan Noonien Singh. Dr. Bashir had to go through a bit of heat when he was discovered to be genetically enhanced and his father had to go to prison for it. What Bruce Maddox did again breaks Federation precedent and you are telling me they never checked her out before she got into the school? A positronic brain should have been easy to detect with the information they had on file when creating a race of cybernetic slaves.
#4 Picard: Finally we come to the man himself. Captain Picard. I am grateful they did not turn Picard into another Jake Skywalker, you see he is not as bitter which is a blessing. However Picard does things in what I feel there are several character violations that need to be addressed. If there was one thing I got from TNG is that Picard loves to work within systems and a process. You can't do that outside of Starfleet. In Star Trek Insurrection we see Picard going against Starfleet to REFORM it not abandon it completely. The acceptance of the Soong android slaves on Mars was also disturbing as he was shown in "Measure of Man" highly pissed off at the prospect of Data being used to create said race of slaves. I would think Picard would raise holy hell about this long before Starfleet turned their backs on Romulus, but simply he brushes past it in the interview like he accepts it. The promotion also too is kind of odd considering his chat with Captain Kirk in Generations, seems to me Picard fell into the same trap as did Kirk in the movies, as Captain you can make a difference in that Chair, you can't as an Admiral. Some officers do adapt well to it like Admiral Janeway and Admiral Archer but not so with Kirk or Picard which is why they are so endearing. I always thought Picard had the wisdom to avoid what Kirk did in the TMP movies. Picard returning to France where he family died in a house fire seems interesting too, Picard has a rough time with past memories espically bad ones....Star Trek First Contact is a great example and even this show does it well, seeing him in a similar house near where his brother Robert and nephew died is odd. You can't even bring up the Borg or Romulans now without getting his blood pressure up but it seems fine in a house with such sad memories.
There you have it.....If you have any more please feel free to reply.
At least it is better than the Sci-Fi Channel being turned into the Syfy Channel.
If anything the Vulcans would be opposed to helping from the start. How many times had the Romulans specifically targeted Vulcan by this point? In Star Trek Countdown (not canon, I know), Spock, Picard and Data couldn't get the Vulcans to help prevent Romulus' destruction. They only cooperated after Romulus was already destroyed and it was clear the Hobus nova was a galactic threat.
As for everyone else, I think it depends. Remember how Cartwright referred to post-Khitomer Klingons becoming "the space trash of the galaxy"? I can easily see the border members like Bolarus being concerned their worlds would become mass refugee camps.
Also, clearly we expect Starfleet to completely rebuild the evacuation fleet. With what? We know of exactly three shipyards in Starfleet: San Francisco Fleet Yard, Utopia Planetia, and Antares, of which the second is consistently treated as by far the largest. Losing Utopia Planetia would cripple the Federation's shipbuilding capability. Then there's the scale of Federation lives lost on Mars and the shipyards, as the episode alludes to.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
> As a Millennial (I really hate that term by the way) I have watched a ton of Star Trek growing up and still do. What I just watched on Star Trek Picard is NOT....repeat NOT Star Trek. Its sci-fi with the logo printed on it. That goes the same for Discovery but that's not the issue here. I will break down in detail what they messed up and its a lot of it.
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> #1: Starfleet. We have been told time and again that Starfleet and the Federation is paradise, in DS9 specifically, everyone refers to Earth as a paradise. The Starfleet in this show is nothing like that. They completely threw past court rulings out the window to create a race of cybernetic slaves to build starships for them. Granted Starfleet has gone off the deep end before but it was based on new experimental thinking, not something that has been well established for centuries ie the barbarism of slavery. It completely destroys TNG "Measure of a Man" and turned Bruce Maddox from a misguided ambitious scientist into the boogeyman. Completely missing the fact he was Chairman of Robotics at the Daystrom Institute. The Data twins as I will refer to them here seems like something Starfleet Medical would create not someone who specializes in robotics, which again is disturbing. DS9 may not have been a paradise but it wasn't Earth, at this point in our future Earth should be a paradise. The Federation fought a cataclysmic war to ensure it remained that way!
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> #2. The Romulans. Starfleet has a golden opportunity to help out the Romulans in their time of need, just like they did for the Klingons when their moon Praxis exploded. Spock took a special interest in helping the Klingons which eventually lead to a treaty with the Federation and they became allies. They could have done the same thing here following the example of Spock but when it became too difficult to help out a dying race after the Mars Revolt they simply left the Romulans to essentially die. This again goes against everything Starfleet had fought for hundreds of years, Picard even said as much in Star Trek Nemesis in the Romulan Senate. Where the hell where the Vulcans coming to the defense of their lost cousins? Nowhere? I thought the Federation learned from its mistakes not make the same ones of the past. I'm not asking for ST:Picard to represent a perfect world but at least get some things right, in Star Trek the Federation are supposed to be for the most part....GOOD. That's why its so shocking to see ST: Insurrection and why it hits home. The Romulans were also an EMPIRE with a vast territory and resources, you are telling me they didn't have the warbirds to evacuate their own people? Come on CBS.
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> #3. The Data Twins. First off all lets make one thing really clear. Just because you have a positronic brain does NOT mean you turn into Jason Bourne in an instant of danger. Data even said he was NOT built for combat in TNG "The Hunted" what was shown on screen was something Roga Danar could do as a conditioned trained solider not an enhanced university student. Also in Star Trek, we have seen how the Federation and Starfleet have frowned on enhanced individuals like the Data twins for fear they would become another Khan Noonien Singh. Dr. Bashir had to go through a bit of heat when he was discovered to be genetically enhanced and his father had to go to prison for it. What Bruce Maddox did again breaks Federation precedent and you are telling me they never checked her out before she got into the school? A positronic brain should have been easy to detect with the information they had on file when creating a race of cybernetic slaves.
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> #4 Picard: Finally we come to the man himself. Captain Picard. I am grateful they did not turn Picard into another Jake Skywalker, you see he is not as bitter which is a blessing. However Picard does things in what I feel there are several character violations that need to be addressed. If there was one thing I got from TNG is that Picard loves to work within systems and a process. You can't do that outside of Starfleet. In Star Trek Insurrection we see Picard going against Starfleet to REFORM it not abandon it completely. The acceptance of the Soong android slaves on Mars was also disturbing as he was shown in "Measure of Man" highly pissed off at the prospect of Data being used to create said race of slaves. I would think Picard would raise holy hell about this long before Starfleet turned their backs on Romulus, but simply he brushes past it in the interview like he accepts it. The promotion also too is kind of odd considering his chat with Captain Kirk in Generations, seems to me Picard fell into the same trap as did Kirk in the movies, as Captain you can make a difference in that Chair, you can't as an Admiral. Some officers do adapt well to it like Admiral Janeway and Admiral Archer but not so with Kirk or Picard which is why they are so endearing. I always thought Picard had the wisdom to avoid what Kirk did in the TMP movies. Picard returning to France where he family died in a house fire seems interesting too, Picard has a rough time with past memories espically bad ones....Star Trek First Contact is a great example and even this show does it well, seeing him in a similar house near where his brother Robert and nephew died is odd. You can't even bring up the Borg or Romulans now without getting his blood pressure up but it seems fine in a house with such sad memories.
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> There you have it.....If you have any more please feel free to reply.
1# Earth and other core worlds were relative utopian meaning no poverty, free healthcare, housing, and everyone has all the needed essentials plus luxuries, not that it's an absolute utopia were there are no issues and everyone is happy 24/7. I saw nothing that changed that in ST: Picard, Earth is gorgeous especially his vineyard, and the cities beautiful and clean with no homeless people suffering. This is not some Blade Runner Distopia. Even DS9 Earth almost ended up in Authoritarian hands thanks to Admiral Layton.
2. Starfleet did try and help the Romulans at first, in a huge way, then the Synths attacked and sabotaged it. We still don't know why they did it, nor why Starfleet refused to rebuild its ferries and try again although honestly it likely would have been too late by then anyways.
3. Clearly Dahj and Soji have some very different programming then Data ever did, and in fact they are far more advanced then Data, his bit of brains were a key starting point, not the end of development, so it makes sense they might have capabilities Data did not, especially since they are more under threat then Data from their beginning.
4. We see that Picard regrets how he handled Star Fleet by resigning, he just got frustrated and snapped resigning. And we don't know the Synths were slaves. We don't know anything about them except that they attacked Mars having gone wrong. We don't why or who built them or what for. It's been one episode.
And we haven't seen how Federation civilians react to Starfleet in previous series. A good portion of the Federation might think that Starfleet sticks its nose in business where it doesn't belong. Which results in the Federation suffering for it.
It also sounds like they dredged up that idiotic notion that large, multi-world cultures like the RSE, the Federation, the Klingons, the Iconians (and it supposedly actually happened to the Iconians), and others would simply collapse and all the people die off or whatever if their capital is destroyed. It is ridiculous at best, it would be like saying that if a hurricane took out Washington DC like Katrina did New Orleans the entire US would immediately cease to exist, possibly devolving into a Mad Max style wasteland or simply emptying out. It is one of the worst of the worst of the immersion breaking logic gaffs during the Birman era of Trek.
STO got it right in that it was not the destruction of the homeworld itself that caused the RSE to collapse, it was the political infighting, economic troubles from disrupted manufacturing chains, the Tal'Shiar treachery, and outright sabotage from outside the empire that caused it to self-destruct. It was not just the Birman schtick of (to paraphrase a certain racoon) "boo hoo, the homeworld is dead and we are all doomed".
Getting it right from the start would be a refreshing change, the only other Trek that fully accomplished that was TOS (though DS9 came close). TNG was a very close call for instance since the first season was so bad that a lot of Trek fans just watched it to keep the viewer numbers up in the hope that the writers would eventually pull their heads out and get it right (which began to happen by the end of the first season).
As for the forehead ridges, not all Romulans have them (as shown by Mark Lenard's and Joanne Linville's characters), just like some Vulcans have ridges and some do not. The fact more Romulans seem to have them than Vulcans could mean that the followers of Surak (who did not have the ridges btw) probably came from areas/cultures where the smooth foreheads were more common and the ones who left were probably from ones where the ridges were more common than smooth. It is also possible that the proto-Romulans picked up some other Vulcanoids (like Mintokans) who had heavier ridges than the average Vulcan, or that the ridges are an outward sign of some trait that helps with survival on Romulus (some novels have suggested it helped them process more humid air so they were less likely to get pneumonia, others that it has something to do with a higher tolerance for iron).
As for the AI stuff, the Federation way back in TOS had a certain paranoia and even slight intolerance toward AIs, which the M5 incident reinforced.
For instance, in "Tomorrow Is Yesterday" it was brought out that they usually kept a very tight leash on the ship's computer and if you let it go too long without "overhauls" it would start getting quirky. In that episode they got the overhaul at a world where the locals decided to shape the quirkiness along benign lines and let the computer have a more active role and personality instead of the usual wipe it down to factory settings dullness thing. The crew did not like it though, the faux-flirty humor (and giggling) even irritated Spock.
Later, in TAS, the ship passed through an energy cloud that loosened up the locks on the AI and it developed a prankish sense of humor that quickly turned deadly since it did not understand humanoid frailties.
Generally it all correlated with the concept that AIs are more likely to develop in alien directions rather than human ones, and that trying to impose human morals and understanding on them (like the Daystrom engram overlay on the M5) is hit or miss at best. That concept appears a lot in sci-fi, for instance it is the central point of David Gerrold's novel "When HARLIE Was One".