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My problems with TRIBBLE

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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    azrael605 wrote: »
    For what its worth, Executive Producer Michael Chabon on the Picard series tweeted what he said was a "state of the galaxy" map for the series, notably Earth and Quonos but not Romulus are shown.

    Ooh. Finally, canonical fallout from the destruction of Romulus.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,288 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    starkaos wrote: »
    STO has already established a timeline that overlaps the same time Picard's new series will be set.

    There's a ten year gap, from what we've heard with the Picard series happening first. That is a sizable buffer which I think should be able to handle most changes.

    STO has the Path to 2409 which covers every year since Nemesis. So if they pick 2399 to set the Picard series...
    Patrick said something about 2499 in his reveal, I think; on the other hand, the official press release said it was set "twenty years after TNG", which would put it safely in 2490, ten years before the Path begins, and twenty years before the game.

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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,288 Arc User
    Yes, I did, thanks. That's what I get for trying to type before coffee and while the kids want breakfast.
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,473 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    starkaos wrote: »
    starkaos wrote: »
    STO has already established a timeline that overlaps the same time Picard's new series will be set.

    There's a ten year gap, from what we've heard with the Picard series happening first. That is a sizable buffer which I think should be able to handle most changes.

    STO has the Path to 2409 which covers every year since Nemesis. So if they pick 2399 to set the Picard series...
    Patrick said something about 2499 in his reveal, I think; on the other hand, the official press release said it was set "twenty years after TNG", which would put it safely in 2490, ten years before the Path begins, and twenty years before the game.

    The Path to 2409 begins in 2380 right after Nemesis so 2390 would be 10 years after the Path begins.

    According to the STO Wiki:

    2380
    • Praetor Shinzon aboard the I.R.W. Scimitar faces the U.S.S. Enterprise (NCC-1701-E) , commanded by Captain Jean-Luc Picard. Aided by Commander Donatra and her ship, the I.R.W. Valdore, the Enterprise defeats the Scimitar. Sacrificing himself, Lieutenant Commander Data succeeds in destroying the vessel and its thalaron generator.
    • The Romulan government falls into disarray following the death of Praetor Shinzon. Tal'aura is now the self-appointed Praetor of the Romulan Star Empire, supported by Fleet Commander Tomalak, but opposed by Commander Donatra.
    • The Remans, represented by Colonel Xiomek of the Kepeszuk Battalion, demand a new location on which Remans may settle and live independently, but are met with resistance from Tal'aura.
      The above events seem to be inspired by, if not taken directly from, the A Time To... and Star Trek: Titan
      series of Star Trek novels.
    • Captain William T. Riker assumes command of the U.S.S. Titan, while Beverly Crusher briefly serves as head of Starfleet Medical before returning to the Enterprise.
    • Stardate 56867.84: The Female Changeling that led the Dominion War is sentenced for crimes committed against sentient beings and committed to the Federation maximum security facility at Ananke Alpha.
    • The Federation funds the Andak project, which is met with resistance from certain xenophobic groups, but supported by governmental adviser Elim Garak. The project aims to transform the barren desert climate of Cardassia Prime into an environment that can support sufficient crops to feed its population.
    • Experts at the Daystrom Institute predict that the Cardassian Union could fall in as little as three years without more successful projects such as the Andak project.
    • Stardate 58370.4: Ro Laren surrenders herself to Starfleet authorities, pleads guilty to charges of desertion and defection to the Maquis, and is ordered to serve time at a penal facility on Earth.

    2381
    • While monitoring the deteriorating state of the Romulan Star Empire, the United Federation of Planets offers humanitarian aid to both Romulus and Remus.
    • Xiomek allies with Ambassador Spock's Unification movement on Romulus, seeing it as another population that has been exploited by the Romulan government. On stardate 59480.33, Spock presents a formal request for aid for the Unification movement to the Federation Council; the latter agrees to take the matter under consideration.
    • Commander Donatra and her military forces conquer several agricultural worlds in Romulan space, declaring herself the first empress of the Imperial Romulan State. She establishes a capital on Achernar Prime.
    • The Bajoran Coalition, which demands the extradition of several Cardassian government and military officials to stand trial for crimes against sentient beings having taken place during the Bajoran Occupation as well as the Dominion War, requests assistance from the Federation Council and the Klingon High Council.
    • Captain Jean-Luc Picard is appointed by Starfleet to lead the defense against the possible threat of renewed Borg activity in the Alpha Quadrant, including the possibility of a new Borg Queen being recreated. Seven of Nine is called upon to assist in the research of the uses of the technology brought back from the Delta Quadrant by the U.S.S. Voyager to combat or defend against the Borg.
    • Stardate 58839.03: Construction of the U.S.S. Stargazer-A commences at the San Francisco Fleet Yards. The Stargazer-A and her sister ships will be the first of a new class of starships designed for scientific research and exploration.

    2382
    • The takeover of several agricultural planets by the Imperial Romulan State now threatens Romulus with severe food shortages, while the cessation of slave labor on Remus hampers power plant and factory output. Praetor Tal'aura reluctantly accepts food shipments from the Federation, but refuses its offer to mediate negotiations between herself and Empress Donatra, citing it as an internal Romulan matter.
    • Fleet Commander Tomalak, in his attempt at retaking the planets in possession of Donatra, appoints Admiral Taris as his second-in-command and orders her to re-organize and mobilize Romulus' remaining military forces.
    • Tal'aura reforms the Romulan Senate, appointing her supporters as senators. She declines to respond to requests for representation from both the Unification movement and the Remans. The Line of Tellus denounces Tal'aura publically and withdraws its members from government service.
    • The Klingon Empire takes advantage of the weakened state of Romulus by initiating strikes into Romulan space. They retake the Khitomer sector, a move criticized by the Federation Council, but defended by Ambassador K'mtok.
      Councilor T'Los of Vulcan warns the Federation Council of the unpredictable outcome of a Vulcan/Romulan reunification; however, the council does not reach an official decision on whether to support the movement and votes to table the issue.
    • Stardate 60334.46: Admiral Owen Paris of Starfleet Research and Development orders that the U.S.S. Voyager Doctor's mobile emitter be taken to the Starfleet facility on Galor IV for study. The Doctor files a lawsuit in response; the office of the Judge Advocate General issues an injunction against the transfer of the mobile emitter until the case can be studied further.
    • The Bajoran Coalition continues its urging of the extradition of several Cardassian government and military officials; however, hundreds of the aforementioned Cardassian officials seemingly vanish from Cardassia Prime, which is seen as an attempt to assist fugitives.
    • Ro Laren completes her sentence in the Federation penal colony and returns to Bajor. She accepts a commission in the Bajoran militia and is appointed head of security for Deep Space Nine.

    2383
    • Praetor Tal'aura imposes limits on replicator use and food rationing on Romulus in an attempt to preserve precious resources for the support of the campaign against Empress Donatra and her Imperial Romulan State.
    • Rioting ensues in the capital of Ki Baratan due to the shortages, lasting several days. Tal'aura orders several military troops to intervene, resulting as many as 2,000 deaths from either rioting or military intervention.
    • Tal'aura is granted several privileges by the Senate, including the ability to declare war without Senate approval.
    • Ambassador Spock returns to Romulus and the Unification movement, which vows to continue to "wage peace" on Romulus.
    • Stardate 60900.31: Fleet Commander Tomalak attacks Donatra's fleet at Xanitla, but his forces are defeated in the battle. Admiral Taris and the twelve vessels under her command then defect to the Imperial side.
    • The Cardassian government signs a new agreement with the Federation, which will provide aid and relief. The reconstruction of Lakarian City begins, while a resurgence of interest in ancient lore among Cardassians is set off by several archaeological discoveries on the world.
    • The Oralians start to hold services openly and seek followers among the population, both of which were previously outlawed by the Cardassian Union. The True Way continues to call for a return to a totalitarian state.
    • The Klingon Empire and the Federation are in disagreement over the morality concerning the former's takeover of Khitomer. The Federation Council decides not to formally censure the empire for its miliary action; however, the mere fact that the Council voted on the matter is enough for Qo'noS to temporarily recall its ambassador to the Federation.
    • Several Klingon High Council members demand that Chancellor Martok banish all Federation ambassadors from Klingon space. Martok refuses, causing Councilor Qolka to challenge him in (and subsequently lose) a duel of honor to the death.
    • Rear Admiral James Bennett of the Starfleet Judge Advocate General's office rules that the Data Decision is too narrow to be used in the case of The Doctor's mobile emitter transfer request. The Doctor is found to not be the property of Starfleet, but his sentience is left for another discussion. The Doctor's counsel appeals the decision, further prolonging the case.
      (See TNG: The Measure Of A Man and VOY: Author, Author)
    • The Soong Foundation, a group affiliated with the Daystrom Institute, announces that it will commence research into creating a mobile holographic emitter of its own design with the intention of adapting it for civilian use.
    • Geordi LaForge is promoted to command the U.S.S. Challenger.

    2384
    • Federation analysts predict that the Romulan Star Empire is vulnerable to internal and external attacks due to the shakeup in the Romulan power structure. Starfleet dispatches additional ships to the Neutral Zone border.
      Praetor Tal'aura removes Tomalak from his position as proconsul. Sela is chosen to succeed him as her right hand and fleet commander. Tomalak is allowed to retire to his rural estates on Romulus.
    • Tal'aura reluctantly agrees to negotiations with Empress Donatra's Imperial Romulan Senate to determine the location of a neutral zone, but rejects the Federation's offer to mediate the talks. Admiral Taris is sent to the Romulan capitol as Donatra's representative.
    • Stardate 61602.00: Tal'aura is found dead in her chambers. Tal Shiar investigations reveal that the praetor was attacked in her sleep. Many groups on Romulus are accused of the crime, including: an alliance of the noble houses; the Tal Shiar; and agents working for Empress Donatra (who denies any involvement in the murder). At Tal'aura's funeral, Sela publicly blames the Remans and the Unification movement for the assassination.
    • Stardate 61829.83: The IKS Quv is attacked by a Gorn ship. Two hundred and seven Klingons perish in the battle. According to King Xrathis of the Gorn Hegemony, the warship commander was acting without orders. After Xrathis refuses to surrender the survivors of the Quv to the Klingon Empire, Chancellor Martok expels the Gorn's diplomats from the empire and orders ships to the Klingon/Gorn border.
    • Bajor's renewed application for membership within the Federation is accepted. The Ferengi open an embassy and gift shop near Quark's on Deep Space Nine in anticipation of increased traffic and commerce resulting from Federation membership.
    • Odo, acting as the Great Link's ambassador to the solids, meets with Laas on Koralis III. Odo invites Laas to return with him to the Great Link, but his offer is refused, and Laas instead chooses to continue his search for more of the "hundred" changelings in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants.
    • Starfleet transfers the Soong-type android B-4 to the custody of the Soong Foundation in the hopes that his full positronic functioning can be restored.

    2385
    • After reevaluating all of its post-Dominion War assets and resources, Starfleet Command announces that it will re-focus various starships, changing their missions from defense and diplomacy to exploration and scientific discovery. Among the re-assigned ships is the U.S.S. Enterprise-E.
    • Stardate 62230.13: The Klingon Empire announces that all non-Klingons must leave Khitomer within 14 standard days as a "safety measure". Captain Jean-Luc Picard convinces Chancellor Martok to extend the deadline and leads a contingent of ships to assist in the evacuation of former residents to Federation colonies.
    • Captain Picard resigns his Starfleet commission. After a brief sabbatical in France, Picard accepts a position as Federation ambassador to Vulcan.
    • Beverly Crusher accepts the position of captain of the USS Pasteur, an Olympic-class medical starship. Her first task is to assist with the Cardassia Prime rebuilding efforts.
    • Geordi La Forge requests a long-term leave of absence from Starfleet to work on personal projects, including plans to build and test his own starship designs.
    • Stardate 62782.91: The Soong Foundation, with the help of Geordi La Forge, unlocks the "Data matrix," which is the entire personality and being of Data, who had transferred this information into B-4 before his death in the Battle of Bassen Rift.
    • The Data persona takes over B-4 rudimentary programming and assists the Soong Foundation in upgrading the positronic brain and recreating Dr. Noonien Soong's emotion chip. The foundation reports that their work will be completed in a matter of months.
    • Worf also resigns his commission in Starfleet, serving in a diplomatic role to ease the tensions between Klingons and the Federation. He returns to Qo'noS to become lead ambassador and begins a relationship with Grilka.
    • The USS Enterprise-E is assigned to the Utopia Planitia shipyards for en extensive refit. The Starfleet Corps of Engineers reports that the refit will require at least one year to complete; the ship will be used as a testbed for breakthrough technology, among which is the advanced sensor array first installed on Luna-class starships, which will be retrofitted onto other classes of ships.
    • Starfleet Command decides to dismantle its Borg task force after over two years of no Borg activity in Federation space, believing that the U.S.S. Voyager caused more damage to the Borg than initially speculated.
    • Annika Hansen publically speaks out against this action, calling it foolish and premature and leaving her role with Starfleet in protest. She accepts an offer to continue her research at the Daystrom Institute.

    Even Picard's history after Nemesis is laid out in STO lore.
    • 2381: Picard is appointed to lead the defense against the renewed Borg threat. He enlists Seven of Nine to assist with the efforts.
    • 2385: Picard and the Enterprise lead efforts to evacuate Federation citizens from Khitomer when the Klingon Empire expels all non-Klingons. Later that year, Picard resigns his commission in Starfleet and becomes the Federation ambassador to Vulcan.
    • 2386: Picard is among those who testify on Data's behalf, leading to Starfleet Command's decision to reinstate the android's Starfleet commission.
    • 2387: Ambassador Picard, along with Spock, appeal to the Vulcan High Council to help the Romulans save their home planet from destruction; the Vulcans refuse. Picard contacts Geordi La Forge for assistance.
    • 2389: Picard works to repair relations between the Vulcans and the rest of the Federation, following the revelation that they had refused to help the Romulans. He also offers to mediate peace talks between the Klingon Empire and the Gorn Hegemony, but the offer is refused by King Slathis. Picard eventually drafts a border treaty that would be accepted by the Gorn, if a Gorn team were to lose a game of baseball against the Pike City Pioneers. When the game abruptly ends with the revelation that the Gorn had been infiltrated by Undine, it is believed that Picard convinces the Gorn's allies - the Romulans, Breen, Tzenkethi, and Kinshaya - to pressure the Gorn into accepting Federation mediation. (The Needs of the Many)

    That is just from 2380 to 2385 and each year is full of lore. There is just no way that the creators of the new Picard series are able to create their own story and having STO set 20 years in the future. It is better for the creators of the new Picard series just discard all the STO lore and take inspiration from STO if necessary. After all, it is far easier to create a sequel to Nemesis than it is to create a prequel to STO where a ton of lore is already laid out.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 10,413 Arc User
    Why would they respect STO in the first place? It's just a game, games are non-canonical. The show writes the canon going forward. STO will retain it's story but may incorporate bits and pieces of the new shows.
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,473 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    Why would they respect STO in the first place? It's just a game, games are non-canonical. The show writes the canon going forward. STO will retain it's story but may incorporate bits and pieces of the new shows.

    Because some fans believe that STO is part of the Prime Universe when it is strictly limited to only TV series and movies. STO and the novels are set in parallel universes and not part of the Prime Universe.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,288 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    angrytarg wrote: »
    Why would they respect STO in the first place? It's just a game, games are non-canonical. The show writes the canon going forward. STO will retain it's story but may incorporate bits and pieces of the new shows.

    Because some fans believe that STO is part of the Prime Universe when it is strictly limited to only TV series and movies. STO and the novels are set in parallel universes and not part of the Prime Universe.
    Slight modification - they're part of the Prime Timeline until they're not. There are quite a few of the old Trek novels (I mean back in the day, like '70s and early '80s) that could be slotted into the last two years of Kirk's initial assignment aboard Enterprise, because there's nothing in later canon that contradicts them. Similarly, STO is Prime until Disco or one of the new shows contradicts it, at which point STO either adjusts its history (easy enough - it's been done several times already, after all) or becomes an alternate timeline.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,230 Arc User
    Also, the path to 2409 is mostly broad story beats with only a few specific details mentioned. For example:
    (Picard) also offers to mediate peace talks between the Klingon Empire and the Gorn Hegemony, but the offer is refused by King Slathis.
    That's something that probably took less than a day. Thus you can handwave it as something that happened between episodes if you want, or after the last episode maybe. We don't know yet when exactly they're going to set it.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    Does it take place in the timeline in which the U.S.S. Kelvin was not attacked by Nero? If yes then it's prime timeline. It doesn't really matter if it's a canonical work or not. Prime or Kelvin Timeline are in-universe terms or rather for in-universe events. It's like a dating system and even fictional (here read non-canonical) events can be placed in relation to other events.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,230 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    Does it take place in the timeline in which the U.S.S. Kelvin was not attacked by Nero? If yes then it's prime timeline. It doesn't really matter if it's a canonical work or not. Prime or Kelvin Timeline are in-universe terms or rather for in-universe events. It's like a dating system and even fictional (here read non-canonical) events can be placed in relation to other events.
    That's... not the question i was posing. The question is what dates events happened and in what order, which we don't have.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,473 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    starkaos wrote: »
    angrytarg wrote: »
    Why would they respect STO in the first place? It's just a game, games are non-canonical. The show writes the canon going forward. STO will retain it's story but may incorporate bits and pieces of the new shows.

    Because some fans believe that STO is part of the Prime Universe when it is strictly limited to only TV series and movies. STO and the novels are set in parallel universes and not part of the Prime Universe.
    Slight modification - they're part of the Prime Timeline until they're not. There are quite a few of the old Trek novels (I mean back in the day, like '70s and early '80s) that could be slotted into the last two years of Kirk's initial assignment aboard Enterprise, because there's nothing in later canon that contradicts them. Similarly, STO is Prime until Disco or one of the new shows contradicts it, at which point STO either adjusts its history (easy enough - it's been done several times already, after all) or becomes an alternate timeline.

    I was talking about the Destiny/Typhon Pact novels and the Shatnerverse novels not some old novel from the 70s and 80s. STO, the Destiny Novels, and likely the new Picard series contradicts each other. Since STO and Destiny/Typhon Pact novels contradict each other, then they both can't be part of the Prime Timeline. So either one of them is part of the Prime Timeline or neither of them are. So unless the Picard series treats STO or the Destiny/Typhon Pact novels as canon, then only the Picard series is part of the Prime Timeline. Of course, there is nothing stopping the creators of the Picard series to take inspiration from STO and the Destiny/Typhon Pact novels, but only that minor portion would be part of the Prime Timeline.

    It is far easier to treat STO and the Destiny/Typhon Pact novels as parallel universes that were 99.99999999999% identical to the Prime Timeline until after Nemesis since the amount of effort required to force STO into the same timeline as the new Picard series would completely change the nature of the game. A good portion of the original game deals with Species 8472 manipulating events behind the scenes. Without Species 8472 in the new Picard series, there is no reason for the Klingon/Gorn War and the eventual Klingon/Federation War in STO.
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 35,835 Arc User
    the klingons don't NEED external manipulation as an excuse to go to war - they are capable of doing that just fine on their own​​
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    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
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    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."

    "Curiosity is bad! It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed...and more importantly, it makes you poor!"
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,473 Arc User
    the klingons don't NEED external manipulation as an excuse to go to war - they are capable of doing that just fine on their own​​

    Technically, it was external manipulation of the Gorn and Federation that caused the wars.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,288 Arc User
    You said "the novels". If you meant specific novels that had already been contradicted by canon (like Ford's novels The Final Reflection and How Much For Just the Planet?, for example), you should have said so.

    And thus far, on the occasions when something in STO has been contradicted by later canon, the devs' response has been the most reasonable one - to change the game's story to fit. That keeps STO in the Prime timeline, because the parts that aren't - or, more accurately, weren't - have been excised.
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,473 Arc User
    How do we know that Ford's novels are not set in a parallel universe? There is also Federation by Judith and Garfield Reeve-Stevens which dealt with the life of Cochrane.

    When has STO ever changed to fit the Prime timeline dictated by later canon? The only possible time it can be contradicted by later canon is with Discovery since it is the only show or movie set in the Prime Universe that aired after Nemesis. AFAIK, Klingons in STO still look like TNG Klingons not Discovery Klingons, no holographic communicators in STO, and there hasn't been contradictions between STO and Discovery. AFAIK, the changes to the old missions were to get rid of bad missions and make the story arcs more consistent and better not because they were contradicted by later canon since the last mission revamp was the Cardassian Struggle revamp in October 2015 and Discovery first aired in 2017.

    Obviously, the new Picard series is going to be full of contradictions for STO since it supposedly is set in the 2390s. With the amount of contradictions caused by the new Picard series, it will be extremely confusing for STO players and hard work for the devs to make STO consistent with the new series.
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 35,835 Arc User
    it must also be really confusing, someone coming to STO from armada or legacy and wondering why there's no mention of the borg invasion immediately after the dominion war and subsequent omega particle debacle, or zero mention of t'urell anywhere

    video games aren't supposed to be consistent with any other media, or even other video games - the only thing they're supposed to consistent with is themselves​​
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    blacklivesmatter.png

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."

    "Curiosity is bad! It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed...and more importantly, it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,611 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    starkaos wrote: »
    STO has the Path to 2409 which covers every year since Nemesis. So if they pick 2399 to set the Picard series, then there needs to be a Klingon-Gorn War in the series and has to follow the previous events established by STO's timeline to have a connection to STO. Every event laid out in STO's timeline during the Picard series run will have to happen.


    It is far easier for the creators of any new Star Trek series to create their own content and STO creates its own content without worrying about the other party. The creators of the Picard series should be able to create the story they want without having their hands tied by STO.

    Yes, I know about the path to 2409 and no one's saying that their hands are tied. What STO can offer the new series most is a test bed of ideas that the writers can pull from as they see fit. I don't think they'll be obligated to respect STO's canon to the literal detail (such that they're writing the new show within the hard constraints of the Path to 2409), although CBS may reign in any crazy ideas that would completely invalidate this game (ex. collapsing the Federation). They do value STO (it's a profitable venture and good marketing) and they've been very keen on supporting Age of Discovery (which is likely to continue through the Picard series.)

    If some STO content needs to be revamped, so be it, but fortunately STO's mission path is very flexible (see. previous revamps) and we have been primed for minor changes in our own canon before (see. those revamps.) And, this would only be necessary for changes seen in the Picard series that couldn't be explained away in the ten year gap. For example: if the Gorn feature heavily and develop some political dealings, well apart from the Klingon empire, then that can still be integrated into the Klingon war arc with a few changes in date (condensing events to fit the new window. Same stuff happens, only with altered years. Blame Daniels.)
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  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 10,413 Arc User
    > @starkaos said:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Because some fans believe that STO is part of the Prime Universe when it is strictly limited to only TV series and movies. STO and the novels are set in parallel universes and not part of the Prime Universe.

    You are confusing canon and prime timeline.

    The prime timeline is indeed the series of events we follow through watching the shows and movies. However STO does take place in the same timeline as it's build on these events. It is however not canon as everything IN STO doesn't affect anything but STO going forward.

    With the new Picard show (and DSC although they can work with that) STO will obviously not be able to incorporate those events. Then it could be considered it's own timeline. Or did you mean that? In that case sorry for not getting it xD

    I think it just confuses people if we start to claim every game and novel creates a new timeline. So far all those works are prime timeline but not canonical meaning they build upon the foundation canon and branch from there, their branch just never happens "really". The exception would be novels or games etc. specifically mentioning certain events have concluded differently from canon and go from there.
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    artan42 wrote: »
    Does it take place in the timeline in which the U.S.S. Kelvin was not attacked by Nero? If yes then it's prime timeline. It doesn't really matter if it's a canonical work or not. Prime or Kelvin Timeline are in-universe terms or rather for in-universe events. It's like a dating system and even fictional (here read non-canonical) events can be placed in relation to other events.
    That's... not the question i was posing. The question is what dates events happened and in what order, which we don't have.

    And it wasn't in answer to you.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,473 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    > starkaos said:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Because some fans believe that STO is part of the Prime Universe when it is strictly limited to only TV series and movies. STO and the novels are set in parallel universes and not part of the Prime Universe.

    You are confusing canon and prime timeline.

    The prime timeline is indeed the series of events we follow through watching the shows and movies. However STO does take place in the same timeline as it's build on these events. It is however not canon as everything IN STO doesn't affect anything but STO going forward.

    With the new Picard show (and DSC although they can work with that) STO will obviously not be able to incorporate those events. Then it could be considered it's own timeline. Or did you mean that? In that case sorry for not getting it xD

    I think it just confuses people if we start to claim every game and novel creates a new timeline. So far all those works are prime timeline but not canonical meaning they build upon the foundation canon and branch from there, their branch just never happens "really". The exception would be novels or games etc. specifically mentioning certain events have concluded differently from canon and go from there.

    STO and a few novel series exist in this strange situation where it is part of the Prime Timeline until after Nemesis or Voyager in the case of the Shatnerverse novels and then it is not. My personal belief to avoid this strange situation is that they exist in parallel universes that are 99.99999% identical to the Prime Universe. The Parallels episode from TNG had a lot of Enterprise-Ds that were extremely similar to the Enterprise-D that we know, but with a few minor details like a Cardassian Starfleet Officer. So the Enterprise-Ds from the STO Universe and other universes depicted in video games and novels could have been a few of the other 285,000 Enterprise-Ds from that episode.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 10,413 Arc User
    > @starkaos said:
    >
    >
    > STO and a few novel series exist in this strange situation where it is part of the Prime Timeline until after Nemesis or Voyager in the case of the Shatnerverse novels and then it is not. My personal belief to avoid this strange situation is that they exist in parallel universes that are 99.99999% identical to the Prime Universe. The Parallels episode from TNG had a lot of Enterprise-Ds that were extremely similar to the Enterprise-D that we know, but with a few minor details like a Cardassian Starfleet Officer. So the Enterprise-Ds from the STO Universe and other universes depicted in video games and novels could have been a few of the other 285,000 Enterprise-Ds from that episode.

    I get that, but that's some advanced geekism (not meant condescending) not everyone can easily follow, which in turn causes especially new Treklets to believe that Trek is a huge, incomprehensible timey-wimey. In reality the rules are very simple though.

    Games and novels that dom't deliberately settle in a new timeline (as in "what if" scenarios of things we saw in canon) all are starting in the prime timeline since they require the common ground of canon for the audience to find a footing. Of course the story they tell didn't happen in the prime timeline, then one could say it is a new timeline of events. I personally prefer to say "prime" so I know where we are and "non-canon" to explain nothing of it is part of the common ground 'canon'. Otherwise you start saying "this is timeline 421" which enters Marvel territory of "Earth 6217" which makes it horribly intimidating tryimg to pick it up.

    That being said, I personally consider STO following AGT with minor alterations (as you said, it's one of those almost identical futures).
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,611 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    angrytarg wrote: »
    I think it just confuses people if we start to claim every game and novel creates a new timeline. So far all those works are prime timeline but not canonical meaning they build upon the foundation canon and branch from there, their branch just never happens "really". The exception would be novels or games etc. specifically mentioning certain events have concluded differently from canon and go from there.

    CBS has apparently been treating DSC related tie-ins as part of a canonical extended universe. There was a mention on the post-AoD announcement Ten Forward Weekly (which I still need to go back to just to check reality didn't collapse on into itself) that AoD itself will be considered canon (and feature T'Kuvma's canonical sister from the comics, crossing these EU pieces.) They've been working closely with CBS including consulting writers (Al posted some pics from the writers room.)

    2409/2410 is almost certainly a grey area ATM (unless there are indeed plans between Cryptic and CBS) and the topic may be revised again when details regarding the Picard show aren't just unveiled but written in the first place (all they had at time of STLV was basically the one character.) But I highly, highly, highly doubt that STO is going to be walled off in its own separate timeline because neither CBS or Cryptic benefit from losing cross marketing. Either the show isn't going to be that big a departure from the reasonable projections made by 2409 and what deviations there are get comfortably absorbed by the ten year gap (with perhaps a few minor changes in game), or Cyptic is going to take any steps required to bring STO into prime timeline canon so they can not only reference one ongoing Star Trek series (a huge deal considering where the game started) but two.
    Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
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  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,425 Arc User
    Since this thread is not going to be locked anytime soon, I want to respond to @starswordc 's post.
    starswordc wrote: »
    Here's why it matters (and this reply goes for @redvenge's post, as well). Hollywood already has a well-established pattern of killing off or otherwise tormenting LGBTQ and brown characters in preference to straight white characters. So is it really too much to ask that freaking Star Trek of all IPs break the mold and leave them alone for once?
    Short answer: Yes. It is too much to ask.

    Those characters that were killed off (generally in the first act) were shallow stereotypes that were jokes, rather than fleshed out characters. The marketing thinking of that era was to make the majority of the cast "straight white" characters because that was the audience the movie was being made for. At that time in the US, that is the largest ethnic group with a large disposable income. Even today, the number of LGBT identifying individuals in the US is very small.

    The answer is to create characters that are more complex than their sexual preference, gender or skin color. As a result, these characters are going to be in the dangerous situations. They will face injury, failure and death. How they handle setbacks and failures is as important as how they handle success and triumph.

    The standards you are using to shield these characters no longer apply. We should be demanding better character development, not special treatment because a character kisses someone of the same gender.
    starswordc wrote: »
    What Mr. Sherred was objecting to, why he didn't consider it "special treatment", was that straight couples have more fictional models for a normal, happy couple than they can shake a stick at, and nonstandard couples want to be able to see themselves in fiction, too.
    It does not matter how many "straight white couples" have happy relationships. It is completely irrelevant. If you don't like stories with unhappy relationships (and there are stories with unhappy "straight white couples") then do not watch them.

    If you are asking for better LGBT characters in your stories, that is one thing. If you want shallow characters who always get a happy ending just to balance some weird perceived imbalance, that is blatantly asking for special treatment.
    starswordc wrote: »
    Note also that the time he wrote those reviews, it looked awfully like the show's straight couple was going to get a happily-ever-after (although that has since changed, what with Tyler getting sent off to be with the woman he perceives as his rapist for little more reason than because his body used to belong to a Klingon, and you can thank TNG through VOY for that lovely quasi-segregationist "stay with your kind!" message).

    TL;DR: is it too much to ask for Stamets and Culber to just be portrayed the way Keiko and Miles were on DS9, i.e. as a normal military family with normal military family problems (Stamets' mushroom weirdness notwithstanding)? Is there some writing rule I don't know about that everything has to be loaded down with "narrative tension"?
    You can certainly criticize how Culber and Tyler/Voq were handled.

    Culber's death was pointless. At first, Stamets was under suspicion for Culber's death, but that just went away. Then, Tyler/Voq was conflicted about killing Culber but that was not resolved (or went away). Now, they are just going to bring Culber back.

    I understand that murdering a character made the Voq/Tyler situation more tense and dramatic, but ultimately it had no payoff. Why did the writers murder Culber in the first place? It comes across as a shallow attempt to be "Game of Thrones", just like the swearing and the gratuitous sex scenes. Edgy, adult, and ultimately vapid.

    Tyler/Voq is equally pointless. His entire existence is a series of coincidences that results in nothing happening. What was he supposed to do once he snuck onboard the Discovery? How was his Voq personality supposed to surface if someone needed to whisper a code word to him? Why is his personality all messed up? Did the Klingons not run any checks before they released this agent? (Well, given what we have seen of TRIBBLE Klingons, it might be a bit much to ask for them to be competent in their use of technology. They did invent a ship that cloaks, then rams other ships just to be destroyed in a warp core explosion)
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 10,413 Arc User
    redvenge wrote: »
    (...)
    Tyler/Voq is equally pointless. His entire existence is a series of coincidences that results in nothing happening. What was he supposed to do once he snuck onboard the Discovery? How was his Voq personality supposed to surface if someone needed to whisper a code word to him? Why is his personality all messed up? Did the Klingons not run any checks before they released this agent? (Well, given what we have seen of TRIBBLE Klingons, it might be a bit much to ask for them to be competent in their use of technology. They did invent a ship that cloaks, then rams other ships just to be destroyed in a warp core explosion)

    I like that their super special undercover implemented spy blows his cover the second he realizes who he really was and immediately gets overwhelmed shouting supremacist paroles. Brilliant.​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,473 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    angrytarg wrote: »
    redvenge wrote: »
    (...)
    Tyler/Voq is equally pointless. His entire existence is a series of coincidences that results in nothing happening. What was he supposed to do once he snuck onboard the Discovery? How was his Voq personality supposed to surface if someone needed to whisper a code word to him? Why is his personality all messed up? Did the Klingons not run any checks before they released this agent? (Well, given what we have seen of TRIBBLE Klingons, it might be a bit much to ask for them to be competent in their use of technology. They did invent a ship that cloaks, then rams other ships just to be destroyed in a warp core explosion)

    I like that their super special undercover implemented spy blows his cover the second he realizes who he really was and immediately gets overwhelmed shouting supremacist paroles. Brilliant.​​

    it's because "Kleengawns R Stoopid", which is basically all you really need to take from their characterization in ST:D. They're stupid, and their entire empire is the result of luck.



    It would be interesting to see what would make a better Empire, the ruling race is extremely intelligent and little to no luck or extremely lucky and little to no intelligence.
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