rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,585Community Moderator
So a case of parallel development that really ONLY holds water in the fact we have FTL Drives (Which functions nothing like each other whatsoever) and Tartegrades.
If the guy basically lifted plot points from Dune... then he's the one doing plagiarism.
Perhaps my use of the term "noble" was ill considered by some here, but then as an adjective that word means "belonging to a hereditary class with high social or political status; aristocratic."
Talks of backstabbing depictions and or "fusions" explanations does not, nor should not detract from how the Klingons have predominantly been portrayed throughout Star Trek since that 1979 date the one twit mentioned above.
Qapla'
Well, that IS a consistent theme. Most Klingons are peasants in service to nobility.
So a case of parallel development that really ONLY holds water in the fact we have FTL Drives (Which functions nothing like each other whatsoever) and Tartegrades.
If the guy basically lifted plot points from Dune... then he's the one doing plagiarism.
If they changed their art AFTER discovery was in production, then any commonalities in the art are either them copying Discovery or a coincidence.
So a case of parallel development that really ONLY holds water in the fact we have FTL Drives (Which functions nothing like each other whatsoever) and Tartegrades.
It's unclear if or how tardigrades are involved with FTL in the tardigrades game prior to July 2017. I never found any art assets or references, just the name of the game, logo, and content either pulling from Dune, SG-1, or very unusual social situations. For example: there is a wormhole teaser dated for August 2015 but there's no Tardigrades involved nor are there any hints of how they could be involved in this scene. This, incidentally, is the "spores" bit used in the comparison videos and it's very similar to a Stargate portal (rendered with dots and as a sphere to achieve the same overall effect with simple 2D assets) which connects to the heavy use of Egyptian architecture and use of ancient Egypt as a sci-fi setting found in later blog posts.
Again, this is why you need to examine full context before encouraging someone to file a lawsuit at their expense.
Any DSC scripts for the Tardigrade episodes or Tardigrade production assets dated earlier than July 2017 (three months before airing) are all that's required to disprove the link.
Edit: found hard evidence, the Discovery trailer from July 22, 2017 (10 days after the single Tardigrades teaser with a Tardigrade in it) includes shots of the spore room, spore chamber, and chase scene aboard the Glenn.) There is no direct link between the CBS production and the game, at the time of production the two could only be said to share the same genre (ie. sci-fi.)
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
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It's not just their appearance either, the whole eating of their enemies reminds me of "You shall eat MAN FLESH!" and that just screams of lazy writing in my view.
You are aware that DS9 was the show that said Klingon's believe that they have to eat the heart of an enemy the fell in order to get into Sto-vo-kor?
Worf even tells Jadzia that hes worried about her, since the fact she hasn't eaten the hart of a slain enemy means she wont be able to get into Sto-vo-kor. Likewise, in a later episode, Kor mentions that he, Kang, and Koloth, ate the heart of some Klingon they beat in a big battle.
I thought that was metaphor not literally.
If it is literal, then it's stupid in my opinion.
Why stupid? Why can't an alien species eat the flesh or others? We've been known to do it, some tribes are even still said too. It's frowned upon in the modern world, but it's not an alien concept. Klingon's like their meat, whether that's wriggling worms, Klingon hearts, or Human foreheads.
I look forward to participating in missions where all I do is run away and all of my dialogue options are different flavours of insulting and belittling whoever it is I'm talking to.
Uhh.. because Klingons ARE savage killers? seriously....
I think you're mistaking "Savage Killers" for "Killer Savages". TNG era Klingons were Savage Killers, Discovery Klingons are just Killer Savages.
It's got to do with where the noun and modifiers are. In the case of "Savage Killers" the word "savage" is the Adjective, and the word "killer" is the noun, and it describes someone who fights very ferociously and doesn't tend to leave enemies in a condition to get up and stab them back.
In the case of "Killer Savages" the Adjective is "killer", meaning lethal, and the noun is "Savage"-a creature or sapient without civilization or redeeming qualities, which describes the Klingorks in Discovery perfectly.
as in Only the top-of-the-line ones even have speech.
Sounds familiar.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnMgD7Igs58
Oh right, Kurak, her career as a scientist was heavily influenced by how "warriors" thought scientists were losers unworthy of respect. Makes you wonder if the average IQ of the Empire in TNG was higher than Targs.
If J'Dan from "The Drumhead" had been treated similarly, then suddenly J'Dan's choice of being a Romulan collaborator makes more sense. Oh wait, no, he just hated the alliance and was using the Romulans as a tool to destabilize the peace.
The blood of all Klingons has become water. Since the Federation alliance we have turned into a nation of mewling babies. Romulans are strong. They are worthy allies. They do not turn Klingons into weaklings like you.
Uhh.. because Klingons ARE savage killers? seriously....
I think you're mistaking "Savage Killers" for "Killer Savages". TNG era Klingons were Savage Killers, Discovery Klingons are just Killer Savages.
It's got to do with where the noun and modifiers are. In the case of "Savage Killers" the word "savage" is the Adjective, and the word "killer" is the noun, and it describes someone who fights very ferociously and doesn't tend to leave enemies in a condition to get up and stab them back.
In the case of "Killer Savages" the Adjective is "killer", meaning lethal, and the noun is "Savage"-a creature or sapient without civilization or redeeming qualities, which describes the Klingorks in Discovery perfectly.
as in Only the top-of-the-line ones even have speech.
Sounds familiar.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnMgD7Igs58
Oh right, Kurak, her career as a scientist was heavily influenced by how "warriors" thought scientists were losers unworthy of respect. Makes you wonder if the average IQ of the Empire in TNG was higher than Targs.
If J'Dan from "The Drumhead" had been treated similarly, then suddenly J'Dan's choice of being a Romulan collaborator makes more sense. Oh wait, no, he just hated the alliance and was using the Romulans as a tool to destabilize the peace.
The blood of all Klingons has become water. Since the Federation alliance we have turned into a nation of mewling babies. Romulans are strong. They are worthy allies. They do not turn Klingons into weaklings like you.
Sounds familiar doesn't it?
have you considered the possibility that Kurak's claims might have been shaped by having her own ambition thwarted, rather than some species-wide cultural bias? (we see this, or saw it, anyway, during the Cold war at times-scientists claiming the military was stripping them of funding-even when that wasn't the case.)
That MIGHT hold some merit... if her case was unique. Actually we've never seen a single Klingon scientist who was actually treated with respect. Presumably they USED TO exist, but not anymore, which leads to....
and EVERY species has traitors, turncoats and collaborators. even in Trek, even the Federation.
As Spock pointed out, ignorant savages don't build star ships, much less long-standing star Empires.
for the Klingons to be the morons you characterize them as, they would need 40K Ork levels of technical ability, including the ability to make tech work because they think it will.
Actually, in the TV shows this is explained by a sort of cultural shift towards an obsession with being "honorable" warriors. So in short, Klingons weren't always a race of willfully ignorant idiots. The key here is that they're willfully ignorant. They have a cultural bias against being technically skilled despite NEEDING technically skilled people to maintain the Empire.
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,585Community Moderator
Just because a species acts like savages doesn't mean they are in all aspects. I think I remember hearing something about Vikings being able to navigate even in coudy conditions because they had a stone that they could use to locate the sun. Not only that, their longboats were actually pretty well built. Not bad for guys normally portrayed as savage barbarians eh?
i seriously doubt the vikings were anywhere near as barbaric as they're portrayed in history and hollywood...history is written by the victors, and the victors LOVE demonizing their defeated enemies to make themselves look better in comparison
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Ok, I think this thread has seriously derailed. Let's get it back on track, please.
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'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
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'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Uhh.. because Klingons ARE savage killers? seriously....
I think you're mistaking "Savage Killers" for "Killer Savages". TNG era Klingons were Savage Killers, Discovery Klingons are just Killer Savages.
It's got to do with where the noun and modifiers are. In the case of "Savage Killers" the word "savage" is the Adjective, and the word "killer" is the noun, and it describes someone who fights very ferociously and doesn't tend to leave enemies in a condition to get up and stab them back.
In the case of "Killer Savages" the Adjective is "killer", meaning lethal, and the noun is "Savage"-a creature or sapient without civilization or redeeming qualities, which describes the Klingorks in Discovery perfectly.
as in Only the top-of-the-line ones even have speech.
Sounds familiar.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnMgD7Igs58
Oh right, Kurak, her career as a scientist was heavily influenced by how "warriors" thought scientists were losers unworthy of respect. Makes you wonder if the average IQ of the Empire in TNG was higher than Targs.
If J'Dan from "The Drumhead" had been treated similarly, then suddenly J'Dan's choice of being a Romulan collaborator makes more sense. Oh wait, no, he just hated the alliance and was using the Romulans as a tool to destabilize the peace.
The blood of all Klingons has become water. Since the Federation alliance we have turned into a nation of mewling babies. Romulans are strong. They are worthy allies. They do not turn Klingons into weaklings like you.
Sounds familiar doesn't it?
have you considered the possibility that Kurak's claims might have been shaped by having her own ambition thwarted, rather than some species-wide cultural bias? (we see this, or saw it, anyway, during the Cold war at times-scientists claiming the military was stripping them of funding-even when that wasn't the case.)
That MIGHT hold some merit... if her case was unique. Actually we've never seen a single Klingon scientist who was actually treated with respect. Presumably they USED TO exist, but not anymore, which leads to....
and EVERY species has traitors, turncoats and collaborators. even in Trek, even the Federation.
As Spock pointed out, ignorant savages don't build star ships, much less long-standing star Empires.
for the Klingons to be the morons you characterize them as, they would need 40K Ork levels of technical ability, including the ability to make tech work because they think it will.
Actually, in the TV shows this is explained by a sort of cultural shift towards an obsession with being "honorable" warriors. So in short, Klingons weren't always a race of willfully ignorant idiots. The key here is that they're willfully ignorant. They have a cultural bias against being technically skilled despite NEEDING technically skilled people to maintain the Empire.
as I said, we've got an example of that happening here-the Meiji empire in Japan between 1918 and 1935 underwent a similar shift, adopting the 'Cult of the warrior' (an obsession with "Samurai" values and stylings) along side the rise of japan's specific version of Fascism.
but that was mainly in the Military and governing classes, and it was a social de-evolution that cost them their empire in the end.
but that was an incredibly MILD shift, and actually delineates about how far you can go before your society becomes too unstable to function, leading to loss of those key infrastructures I mentioned before.
but there's a limit "Killer Savages" run straight into-they can not replace losses, they can not replace damaged technology. they cannot innovate. a civilized society whose soldiers are "Savage Killers" can do these things-if the rest of society is functional and those savage killers are kept on a tight leash.
Amatuers study tactics, professionals study logistics. In logistical terms, the Discovery-era Klingons are ridiculous and silly, the sort of empire that only wins 'off screen' and only wins because the writer forces it for the power of plot.
Yes, ridiculous and silly, much like the Empire in Kirk's time where the explosion of Praxis almost caused the entire Empire to collapse. It didn't, but mainly because of their newly forged alliance with the Federation. Again, not what you would expect of a healthy society. I would argue that in TOS era the cultural collapse had reached a point where the empire was too unstable to function without external assistance. This is partly derived from Chang's notion that if the Empire's war with the Federation was to end that, in the absence of an external threat, the Empire would tear itself apart with in-fighting. Azetbur's analysis was that their society was on the brink of implosion even IF the war continued, and thus they needed to become allies of the Federation to survive as a society.
And no Mara is not an example of an actual scientist, since she's a ship officer and thus expected to know how to fight.
Anyways, the space barbarian trope has never been used for societies that actually lack technical skills. It's rather used for a society where the members of the race are bloodthirsty warmongers. Guess what other race in Star Trek is said to have developed advanced tech simply as a way to fight wars? The Cardassians. although Cardies were modeled on the Cold War dynamic and not the space barbarian idea.
i seriously doubt the vikings were anywhere near as barbaric as they're portrayed in history and hollywood...history is written by the victors, and the victors LOVE demonizing their defeated enemies to make themselves look better in comparison
Nah. Most of the stories of the horrific brutality of the Vikings are from the crazed survivors left behind when the Vikings pillaged England. During a certain time period it was so bad that "Lord, save us from the wrath of the Northmen" was a common prayer. So not the victors, but losers who told tales about how deadly the raids were, perhaps as a way to make themselves look less cowardly, dunno. I've spent a lot of time studying Viking history since some of my ancestors were Vikings.
Comments
If the guy basically lifted plot points from Dune... then he's the one doing plagiarism.
My character Tsin'xing
It's unclear if or how tardigrades are involved with FTL in the tardigrades game prior to July 2017. I never found any art assets or references, just the name of the game, logo, and content either pulling from Dune, SG-1, or very unusual social situations. For example: there is a wormhole teaser dated for August 2015 but there's no Tardigrades involved nor are there any hints of how they could be involved in this scene. This, incidentally, is the "spores" bit used in the comparison videos and it's very similar to a Stargate portal (rendered with dots and as a sphere to achieve the same overall effect with simple 2D assets) which connects to the heavy use of Egyptian architecture and use of ancient Egypt as a sci-fi setting found in later blog posts.
Again, this is why you need to examine full context before encouraging someone to file a lawsuit at their expense.
Any DSC scripts for the Tardigrade episodes or Tardigrade production assets dated earlier than July 2017 (three months before airing) are all that's required to disprove the link.
Edit: found hard evidence, the Discovery trailer from July 22, 2017 (10 days after the single Tardigrades teaser with a Tardigrade in it) includes shots of the spore room, spore chamber, and chase scene aboard the Glenn.) There is no direct link between the CBS production and the game, at the time of production the two could only be said to share the same genre (ie. sci-fi.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
My character Tsin'xing
My character Tsin'xing
Oh right, Kurak, her career as a scientist was heavily influenced by how "warriors" thought scientists were losers unworthy of respect. Makes you wonder if the average IQ of the Empire in TNG was higher than Targs.
If J'Dan from "The Drumhead" had been treated similarly, then suddenly J'Dan's choice of being a Romulan collaborator makes more sense. Oh wait, no, he just hated the alliance and was using the Romulans as a tool to destabilize the peace. Sounds familiar doesn't it?
My character Tsin'xing
My character Tsin'xing
Just because a species acts like savages doesn't mean they are in all aspects. I think I remember hearing something about Vikings being able to navigate even in coudy conditions because they had a stone that they could use to locate the sun. Not only that, their longboats were actually pretty well built. Not bad for guys normally portrayed as savage barbarians eh?
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
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*shrug*
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
And no Mara is not an example of an actual scientist, since she's a ship officer and thus expected to know how to fight.
Anyways, the space barbarian trope has never been used for societies that actually lack technical skills. It's rather used for a society where the members of the race are bloodthirsty warmongers. Guess what other race in Star Trek is said to have developed advanced tech simply as a way to fight wars? The Cardassians. although Cardies were modeled on the Cold War dynamic and not the space barbarian idea. Nah. Most of the stories of the horrific brutality of the Vikings are from the crazed survivors left behind when the Vikings pillaged England. During a certain time period it was so bad that "Lord, save us from the wrath of the Northmen" was a common prayer.
My character Tsin'xing