No problem. Might take a bit to Google hunt them down, so bear with me. Kind of at a loss as to how you can't see how thick the new makeup is though.
I can appreciate the irony of a professional saying one thing on a reality show and doing another thing in professional life (pesky notions like context and subversion ruining our over-simplified trainee rules) but let's take a step back for a moment and consider how the physical prosthetics of the lead actors apply to a video game like Star Trek Online.
The limitations of virtual puppetry are probably going to have more of a noticeable impact than any choice by Cryptic to faithfully emulate the source material in this respect (however that came about.)
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To elaborate a bit more. First you have a corrupt government being increasingly recognized as such and the beginnings of a "grass roots" reformation/revolutionary movement.
Government officials actively betraying the well being of their people for their own gain. Then a disfiguring disease whose victims made mention of having "un-Klingon" feelings, contrast with T'Kuvma's "Remain Klingon or Die" rhetoric, and the fractured state of the Empire is easy to understand. L'Rell's rule by threat of annihilation also explains the state of constant surveillance Klingon soldiers operated under in early TOS.
Yeah, and no amount of crying about "honor" can change that Klingons, in practice, treat honor as little more than bragging rights.
To elaborate a bit more. First you have a corrupt government being increasingly recognized as such and the beginnings of a "grass roots" reformation/revolutionary movement.
Government officials actively betraying the well being of their people for their own gain. Then a disfiguring disease whose victims made mention of having "un-Klingon" feelings, contrast with T'Kuvma's "Remain Klingon or Die" rhetoric, and the fractured state of the Empire is easy to understand. L'Rell's rule by threat of annihilation also explains the state of constant surveillance Klingon soldiers operated under in early TOS.
Yeah, and no amount of crying about "honor" can change that Klingons, in practice, treat honor as little more than bragging rights.
since you insist on using 2000's Tumblr definitions of "honor" I think maybe that particular ship's not only sailed, it's gone, Mark. Then again, that's kind of what the "Writers' CBS hired for Discovery use, so it's a big 'who cares anymore?'
What are you even talking about? TOS Klingons lived by the saying "There is no greater honor than victory" and had not much else to do with honor.
There's no exploration of what Klingon honor is, or what it means anymore, because it's finally revealed that, like definitions of what is 'cool', it changes to suit the desire to make the "Heroes" look cooler than they really are, and today, that means even the cosmetic quest for some sort of honor has been removed from the Klingon character, and replaced with three inches of latex and foam and language classes.
You'd think that Klingons failing to live up to the heroic ideal of Kahless when the Empire is seen as a mere venue for Great House infighting (established explicitly in dialog) would have a complimentary point (where even T'Kuvma's invocation is still off the mark because the empire as it was then was not what the empire would eventually become. Formative cultural experiences had not happened yet.)
But no, apparently the impact of changing ideals (both up and down) is something that can only apply from without to ruin the show. The best thing DSC could have possibly done instead was mime Worf (completely out of context) because fan service (as opposed to coherent story telling which would ask "why the war?" There's no answer besides arbitrary contrivance [as opposed to narrative arcs, which DSC has with respect to the FED/KDF] a la the brief dust-up in DS9 if you doggedly adhere to post-war and post-reconciliation views of Klingon culture. Sometimes people act like villains. There's drama and worldbuilding to be had in that.)
PS. that latex and foam discussion hasn't become any more relevant to STO since I last posted. Remember, this is a thread for the STO video game which would be doing a disservice if it changed core features of DSC Klingons for its Age of Discovery to try to appease engrained DSC detractors at the direct expense of fans (ie. we came here for a few lines of Klingon, not an "always English" retcon! And what's with DSC-era Klingons looking like Worf now? L'Rell deserves better!)
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
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point being, there's no 'there' there wrt Klingons having a culture, much less showing a push/pull on what that culture finds honorable.
Sorry, but the literal text of Star Trek Discovery includes questioning Klingon identity and the various conflicting views about what that should be. Take T'kuvma's opening lecture for example. He's wrong (there's the invocation of Kahless but he finds strength from lashing out at the Federation, not looking within to the Empire and its core problems. Ie. he has the lore but he hasn't yet found honor) but that directly serves to characterize T'Kuvma, establish him as a villain (he manufactured the start to the war, he didn't let action speak for itself), provide an arc for Voq/L'Rell, and contrast by Kol (setting his view as central to the core problem which continues until L'Rell forces a change in perspective towards something that still isn't reflective of the TNG/DS9 ideal for Klingon culture but is working towards that by first dealing with a core problem that has thus far impeded the formation of a united, honorable Empire during this era. Ie. self-serving disunity between the great houses, which even by TNG isn't wholly subdued.)
Honor is central to this because honor is the core concept the Empire has lost at this time. Honor would fix the war without and the war within because it provides internal strength and a unifying concept. In short, it would have made a poor start to this series to effectively have arrived before the arc began (and simply hand waved the war with the FED as just being canon so let's get on with it) and I hope that AoD digs into this a bit more (on both the DSC side and 2410 side)
But they're just anonymous mooks, stormtroopers to mow down, and that is all the context they really have.
Meh, being reductive in your arguments means that any character in any medium will eventually reveal a caricature, depending on how you choose to perceive the material. Drama is ultimately just people having problems at each other after all. What you chose to believe it means is up to you (until you begin to engage in the process of literary analysis.)
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
point being, there's no 'there' there wrt Klingons having a culture, much less showing a push/pull on what that culture finds honorable. They're just mooks for the heroes to gun down in large numbers, like Stormtroopers from Star Wars, only with rubber instead of fiberglass covering their features.
in fact, they're so anonymous that we're getting two cross-faction missions involving them (per the Dev Blog). cross Faction, when the story in Discovery is enmity-to-cold-war.
and theyre the bad-guys, you dig? so here we go, they're inserted into the history, and your contemporary Klingon Character is supposed to be good with killing htem by the basketful-in spite of T'Kuvma apparently being some revered figure.
Revered or infamous? Either way, Discovery spent more time exploring the motives of the Klingons that TOS and TNG put together.
Yeah the characterization of early TNG Klingons was a drastic departure from all previous appearances. Heck TNG and DS9 Klingon characterization was all over the place.
I mean, do you know what the tenets of it are? does anyone??
Blah-blah-blah, Honor, blah-blah-blah, Glory, blah-blah-blah, here's your Batt'leth, now go kill things try not to stab yourself on all the extra spikes the art department tacked on or the blade profile and layout that means you can't actually thrust, cut, or even block with it.
Remember, your face is frozen like that because it's 'Moar Kleengawn!!'.
We'll let you have acrylic hair next year if you don't fumble and kill yourself in the next engagement-oh, you did. NEXT!!
rinse, repeat.
we see pretty clearly in the "Home" speeches that T'Kuvma's a venerated figure, Martok invokes him, not as a warning, but as an inspiration.
iow as someone to look up to.
non-ironically.
T'Kuvma made the original call to re-unite the Empire. He may have done so for misguided reasons that Martok certainly isn't going to subscribe to himself (in 2410) but he can still appreciate what the man did in the context of those like Kol and for also giving incidental rise to L'Rell and VoQ/Tyler.
We do this all the time when examining historical figures and assessing their impact on history (up to and including veneration of leaders, pioneers, or other foundational figures in spite of outlooks or motivations which conflict with modern ethics.) Judging people without their historical context (as you are doing) is not a productive school of analysis.
Blah blah blah, you probably aren't going to read this either (I answered "what honor" quite explicitly. It's a core component of the narrative even if the show doesn't bang on about it like a Klingon afterschool special. Ie. DSC includes a dramatic arc where a dishonorable empire inches its way to becoming an honorable one which STO could explore on multiple fronts with AoD [ie. with 23c and 25c imperial turmoil. This is a foil for the a comparable arc undertaken by the DSC FED where it shifts from being a more close minded organization [binary was diplomacy on its terms] to a more contemplative one that's capable of reaching out to other species as they are [ie. exhibit a trek ethos].)
Fancy how core qualities of the two best known entities in the Star Trek universe are being paired up like that.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
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These aren't the Klingons we see in TNG and DS9. They're pre-TOS. In TOS they weren't like they are in TNG and DS9 either. They were not only cunning, they were devious.
So in all honesty comparing the Klingons of the 24th Century to those of the mid 23rd doesn't really work as well. Would be easier to compare them to the Klingons we know from the 23rd Century like Kruge, Kang, Kor, Koloth, and Chang.
> @dracounguis said: > 1.) No no no! We said we wanted more exploration in the game, not discovery. > > 2.) Ya got an error in your blog "Discovery era" should be "Discovery timeline". > > 3.) I guess this is why ViL is such a tiny Season? > > 4.) Season 1 of Star Trek: Discovery is now available on CBS All Access (paywall) > Back in my day... TV shows were free and you paid for games! :| > > 5.) I play 2 MMOS and have a hard time finding sufficient time for both, but if STO goes full on TRIBBLE stupid, it might make finding time easier. If you catch my meaning. :'(
dude stfu...Hating on Discovery is SO last year. It's a great show and season 2 is coming so GET OVER IT. You'd still end up playing this game even if they changed everything to revolve around Discovery. Go be an angry old man complaining about paying for TV somewhere else. If you don't have enough time for an MMO then you shouldn't have enough time to TRIBBLE and moan on a forum about it. Also there is no "Discovery timeline" as it is in the Prime Universe not the Kelvin Timeline. Get your Star Trek straight before speaking.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
To be honest patrick's thoughts on past Klingon characterization seems so distorted by idealization & the steroid powered cousin of rose colored beer goggles that it bears very little resemblence to what is actually on screen. Watch season 1 TNG, compare the almost animalistic Worf with the cool calculating strategist Kor in TOS, or the cocky flippant Koloth, or the dour honorable Kang.
That used to be a problem until ENT came along with the augment virus and dialog that said the effected Klingons had neurological differences from the base stock. They look on the surface like two entirely different cultures, but the one in TOS which focused entirely on the hybrid Klingons was probably forced on them by the base stock Klingons not trusting their innate trickiness. The cameras probably had base stock Klingons on the other end as something like the commissars in the Soviet military.
If that is actually the case, it makes it difficult to believe that if Klingorks also developed from the virus that they would have no oversight from the base stock Klingons like the QuchHa' such as Kang, Kor, Koloth and Mara live under.
Watch discovery again and the season 2 trailer hope we get the photon torps and a spore torp also the new ev suits in the season two trailer. Can’t wait for AoD
NO Thank you ! Disco is NOT Star Trek, call it a good sci-fi show yes, Star Trek NO ! Also call thsoe THINGS whatever you want but they are NOT Klingons ! I want nothing to do with anything Disso related, it's an insult to Star Trek !
Comments
I can appreciate the irony of a professional saying one thing on a reality show and doing another thing in professional life (pesky notions like context and subversion ruining our over-simplified trainee rules) but let's take a step back for a moment and consider how the physical prosthetics of the lead actors apply to a video game like Star Trek Online.
The limitations of virtual puppetry are probably going to have more of a noticeable impact than any choice by Cryptic to faithfully emulate the source material in this respect (however that came about.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
My character Tsin'xing
My character Tsin'xing
You'd think that Klingons failing to live up to the heroic ideal of Kahless when the Empire is seen as a mere venue for Great House infighting (established explicitly in dialog) would have a complimentary point (where even T'Kuvma's invocation is still off the mark because the empire as it was then was not what the empire would eventually become. Formative cultural experiences had not happened yet.)
But no, apparently the impact of changing ideals (both up and down) is something that can only apply from without to ruin the show. The best thing DSC could have possibly done instead was mime Worf (completely out of context) because fan service (as opposed to coherent story telling which would ask "why the war?" There's no answer besides arbitrary contrivance [as opposed to narrative arcs, which DSC has with respect to the FED/KDF] a la the brief dust-up in DS9 if you doggedly adhere to post-war and post-reconciliation views of Klingon culture. Sometimes people act like villains. There's drama and worldbuilding to be had in that.)
PS. that latex and foam discussion hasn't become any more relevant to STO since I last posted. Remember, this is a thread for the STO video game which would be doing a disservice if it changed core features of DSC Klingons for its Age of Discovery to try to appease engrained DSC detractors at the direct expense of fans (ie. we came here for a few lines of Klingon, not an "always English" retcon! And what's with DSC-era Klingons looking like Worf now? L'Rell deserves better!)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Sorry, but the literal text of Star Trek Discovery includes questioning Klingon identity and the various conflicting views about what that should be. Take T'kuvma's opening lecture for example. He's wrong (there's the invocation of Kahless but he finds strength from lashing out at the Federation, not looking within to the Empire and its core problems. Ie. he has the lore but he hasn't yet found honor) but that directly serves to characterize T'Kuvma, establish him as a villain (he manufactured the start to the war, he didn't let action speak for itself), provide an arc for Voq/L'Rell, and contrast by Kol (setting his view as central to the core problem which continues until L'Rell forces a change in perspective towards something that still isn't reflective of the TNG/DS9 ideal for Klingon culture but is working towards that by first dealing with a core problem that has thus far impeded the formation of a united, honorable Empire during this era. Ie. self-serving disunity between the great houses, which even by TNG isn't wholly subdued.)
Honor is central to this because honor is the core concept the Empire has lost at this time. Honor would fix the war without and the war within because it provides internal strength and a unifying concept. In short, it would have made a poor start to this series to effectively have arrived before the arc began (and simply hand waved the war with the FED as just being canon so let's get on with it) and I hope that AoD digs into this a bit more (on both the DSC side and 2410 side)
Meh, being reductive in your arguments means that any character in any medium will eventually reveal a caricature, depending on how you choose to perceive the material. Drama is ultimately just people having problems at each other after all. What you chose to believe it means is up to you (until you begin to engage in the process of literary analysis.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Yeah the characterization of early TNG Klingons was a drastic departure from all previous appearances. Heck TNG and DS9 Klingon characterization was all over the place.
My character Tsin'xing
T'Kuvma made the original call to re-unite the Empire. He may have done so for misguided reasons that Martok certainly isn't going to subscribe to himself (in 2410) but he can still appreciate what the man did in the context of those like Kol and for also giving incidental rise to L'Rell and VoQ/Tyler.
We do this all the time when examining historical figures and assessing their impact on history (up to and including veneration of leaders, pioneers, or other foundational figures in spite of outlooks or motivations which conflict with modern ethics.) Judging people without their historical context (as you are doing) is not a productive school of analysis.
Blah blah blah, you probably aren't going to read this either (I answered "what honor" quite explicitly. It's a core component of the narrative even if the show doesn't bang on about it like a Klingon afterschool special. Ie. DSC includes a dramatic arc where a dishonorable empire inches its way to becoming an honorable one which STO could explore on multiple fronts with AoD [ie. with 23c and 25c imperial turmoil. This is a foil for the a comparable arc undertaken by the DSC FED where it shifts from being a more close minded organization [binary was diplomacy on its terms] to a more contemplative one that's capable of reaching out to other species as they are [ie. exhibit a trek ethos].)
Fancy how core qualities of the two best known entities in the Star Trek universe are being paired up like that.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
So in all honesty comparing the Klingons of the 24th Century to those of the mid 23rd doesn't really work as well. Would be easier to compare them to the Klingons we know from the 23rd Century like Kruge, Kang, Kor, Koloth, and Chang.
> 1.) No no no! We said we wanted more exploration in the game, not discovery.
>
> 2.) Ya got an error in your blog "Discovery era" should be "Discovery timeline".
>
> 3.) I guess this is why ViL is such a tiny Season?
>
> 4.) Season 1 of Star Trek: Discovery is now available on CBS All Access (paywall)
> Back in my day... TV shows were free and you paid for games! :|
>
> 5.) I play 2 MMOS and have a hard time finding sufficient time for both, but if STO goes full on TRIBBLE stupid, it might make finding time easier. If you catch my meaning. :'(
dude stfu...Hating on Discovery is SO last year. It's a great show and season 2 is coming so GET OVER IT. You'd still end up playing this game even if they changed everything to revolve around Discovery. Go be an angry old man complaining about paying for TV somewhere else. If you don't have enough time for an MMO then you shouldn't have enough time to TRIBBLE and moan on a forum about it. Also there is no "Discovery timeline" as it is in the Prime Universe not the Kelvin Timeline. Get your Star Trek straight before speaking.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
My character Tsin'xing
That used to be a problem until ENT came along with the augment virus and dialog that said the effected Klingons had neurological differences from the base stock. They look on the surface like two entirely different cultures, but the one in TOS which focused entirely on the hybrid Klingons was probably forced on them by the base stock Klingons not trusting their innate trickiness. The cameras probably had base stock Klingons on the other end as something like the commissars in the Soviet military.
If that is actually the case, it makes it difficult to believe that if Klingorks also developed from the virus that they would have no oversight from the base stock Klingons like the QuchHa' such as Kang, Kor, Koloth and Mara live under.