Nabreeki, perma death works with some games but not all. Not all of us are arrogant elitists who enforce their will on other players. Attitudes like that create toxic communities or make already toxic ones even worse, perma death would kill this game
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
You don't shoehorn something like that into a game SEVEN years after a game premiers. People didn't (especially LTS) sign up for that.
Remember, Ground 'death' is not death but unconsciousness.
Someone must have seen the new Season of 'Twin Peaks' with the ghostly resurrectors.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
The answer to your question, ssbn655, appears to be "Yes, but IDGAF because i'm so l33t that I won't be hoist on my own petard" . From the posts in this thread, he/she/it seems to see permadeath as the perfect mechanism to purge STO of the filthy casuals, potatoes, and *gasp* RPers that infest it, and usher in a new golden age in which the self proclaimed elite players, an august group of whom he/she/it is undoubtedly a member, will frolic in sunlit uplands, and never meet or have to deal with anyone who doesn't think or play the game like they do ever again.
Didn't read anything past this paragraph, but while I'm not advocating a purge, I don't see certain types of players leaving the game as a negative. STO has been held back by a noisy few players who've demanded that content remain non-competitive and non-challenging for years now. What we get is lackluster queues and missions. Certain players cried about hard fail conditions, PvP, high DPSers (if I make 500 dps per queue then that's JUST MY PLAYSTYLE), the "competitive" reputation (which is hardly competitive), and so on. With perma-death, they have the opportunity to improve or they can voluntarily leave. Win-win.
You say you don't want a purge then repeat that you want conditions set that will drive those you deem unworthy out of "your" game. That makes me wonder....why are you still playing STO if it doesn't challenge or entertain you? Something's keeping you playing, in spite of the frustrations you've expressed. I'm a console player (XBONE) and have been here since console launch, but it's clear to me this game is aimed squarely at Trekkies, Trekkers and DS9/VOY (and eventually TRIBBLE) fans, with the intent to make lots of money by giving them an environment in which they can more or less RP as a starship captain in the Star Trek universe, and like Captain Kirk, beat the odds, no matter how long, and save the Universe on a daily basis. Perhaps it was different in the earlier days on PC, but that is where it's at now as far as I can tell. Suddenly turning this into a hardcore game that is even more unforgiving than Dark Souls (even that game doesn't kill your toon when you get taken down) is going to narrow a niche clientele...all Star Trek Fans....that is large enough to support a MMO, into a far smaller subset of the parent niche...Star Trek Fans who crave a brutally unforgiving gaming experience. Sounds like a good way to kill the game to me.
Seems to me it would be more profitable trying to figure out ways to make ques more challenging and rewarding (and better populated) than to float highly unrealistic ideas designed solely to make the casuals and RPers head for the exits so that only the "Elite" remain....because there aren't enough of the latter to carry this game, a fact I'm sure Cryptic is well aware of.
If there really were a market for such a game...and it would need to be designed around the concept for it to work...you'd think someone would have created it by now.
What about making injuries stop you from entering a queue? Then they actually mean something and you have to either gets them healed or be locked out.
That could work
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
I find this whole conversation totally hilarious, we have people advocating perma death, loose everything you have etc....Mr "I want hard core death" come to eve online, meet me in null sec and we can discuss that sometime.
I also find it quite insulting that you think you are so much better than you can consider saying how much better the game would be if others not up to your standards left. That, IMHO, is the worst part about MMO's, elitist TRIBBLE that think if you're not at MY LEVEL of play, you don't deserve to play.
I played hard core, I played EQ when there was level loss, exp loss and you lost your gear because it rotted. I played eve (still do off and on), you want hard core cut throat.....meet me in null sec, we can talk about it.
STO is a VERY casual MMO in my opinion, that's why I play it, its relaxing, I can go into a STF with my space magician and do fine. I don't have to be the god of DPS or anything else for that matter. You only want to play STF's with people up to your level, go in with pre-mades.
As for they poster that goes into STF pug's just to laugh at others, pretty sad commentary on yourself TBH.
Possibly you need to find a MMO that measures up to your standards.
To improve teamplay and improve roleplaying the respawning option should be removed from PVE (it's dabatble if it should be remove totaly or only from Advance or Elite PVE's).
This way the need for Sci and Eng healers in a team becomes more important to be able to achieve the PVE goal. Team play becames more important.
And what happens when the entire team is wiped? What then?
Sorry, but bad idea is a bad idea. No thank you.
Easy to answer. Then all failed the PVE, and all can queue up again for a new run.
In very popular team playing games like PUBG this happens all the time. When you are dead and not revived by teammate you stay dead till all are dead or have won.
But tell me what is the problem with teamplay when there is an incentive to actualy take care of each other during team play. Keeping some one else alive etc? Currently there is in 95% of the runs no real team play in PVE's. Most are playing solo in PVE because there is no reason to help each other because well every one respawns anyway.
I find this whole conversation totally hilarious, we have people advocating perma death, loose everything you have etc....Mr "I want hard core death" come to eve online, meet me in null sec and we can discuss that sometime.
I also find it quite insulting that you think you are so much better than you can consider saying how much better the game would be if others not up to your standards left. That, IMHO, is the worst part about MMO's, elitist **** that think if you're not at MY LEVEL of play, you don't deserve to play.
Oh you shouldn't be insulted. You must learn to ignore certain messages from certain posters on here. Especially when they're posting such elitist asteriskes.
Don't take them too serious, it's never going to happen anyway, the whole perma-death thing.
There are some good other suggestions here though.
What about making injuries stop you from entering a queue? Then they actually mean something and you have to either gets them healed or be locked out.
Well that would fix the issue of bad players running around with dozens of injuries, but it still wouldn't change much within a queue, it wouldn't promote team work, healing or anything like that. It could work but injuries would also have to be something that you really want to avoid, for example due to high costs for clearing them.
Then there would be a real incentive not to die.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
Perma-death is an over the top idea considering this is indeed a very casual theme-park mmo. There are other ways as I've said to make the game easily harder (for experienced players only at least).
I'm not an elitist, and I don't care about bragging about pixelated achievements, because this isn't a powerlifting contest - it's sitting on your asss all day. Nonetheless I do enjoy a decent challenge, because if everything at some point dies in 1-shot, it gets quickly boring.
Best I can hope for is increased rewards for the hard elites, and/or tougher enemies in general.
The reason "healers"are not needed is everyone really has self heals, so, why bother with a heal spec ? Tanking, things die so fast....why bother. In order to fix this problem, several things need to happen that NO ONE will like.
1) DPS needs to be nerfed, HARD
2) Self heals need to be reduced, a LOT
3) Respawns need to be eliminated, and the healer will need a "repair/rez" function
So, ya all ok with loosing DPS, loosing self heals ? Did not think so.
Its just not that type of game, to many people here are advocating for the holy trinity again, Tank/DPS/Heals and or CC.
Also "to many injuries" wont stop anything with free "healing" now at esd, and raising that wont cause ANY outcry at all.
I can see possibly a more robust injury system, but not much more. You are asking for a different game, to much change....basically, you want the entire combat system re-worked. Not gonna happen.
To improve teamplay and improve roleplaying the respawning option should be removed from PVE (it's dabatble if it should be remove totaly or only from Advance or Elite PVE's).
This way the need for Sci and Eng healers in a team becomes more important to be able to achieve the PVE goal. Team play becames more important.
And what happens when the entire team is wiped? What then?
Sorry, but bad idea is a bad idea. No thank you.
Easy to answer. Then all failed the PVE, and all can queue up again for a new run.
In very popular team playing games like PUBG this happens all the time. When you are dead and not revived by teammate you stay dead till all are dead or have won.
But tell me what is the problem with teamplay when there is an incentive to actualy take care of each other during team play. Keeping some one else alive etc? Currently there is in 95% of the runs no real team play in PVE's. Most are playing solo in PVE because there is no reason to help each other because well every one respawns anyway.
Relating that to STO: it works for Sompek. I've never seen as much team work as I've seen in that queue, even in PUGs. Especially in PUGs actually.
Giving reviving a much larger role could definitely be beneficial.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
What about making injuries stop you from entering a queue? Then they actually mean something and you have to either gets them healed or be locked out.
Well that would fix the issue of bad players running around with dozens of injuries, but it still wouldn't change much within a queue, it wouldn't promote team work, healing or anything like that. It could work but injuries would also have to be something that you really want to avoid, for example due to high costs for clearing them.
Then there would be a real incentive not to die.
Yes well that right there is why the current injury system if so naff. Whats the point of my ship getting damaged or my boffs being injured if it costs me literally zero resources to correct those issues? I mean having repair gear to fix things on the fly is cool and all but you want to incentivize players to NOT get injured, and that means make it so they DO NOT want to die.
That means players "might" try to act less as if it's all constant DPS races, or not bothering with cross healing, or not valuing support roles, if it means that should they die it costs a lot to repair.
The current system is a shambles. I can have literally 10-20+ injuries and suffer barely any noticeable difference in my ship's performance. And to fix all that, should i wish to, will not cost me a penny at a starbase, or a few EC outside of that.
That sort of nonsense doesn't encourage improvement, it just makes people ignore dying.
No of course the perma-death thing is not happening. So why aren't you just dismissing and then ignoring it? Worked great for me.
Anyway, in general:
I've thought again a bit about the different posts I made in this thread and I'd like to combine some of the suggestions. My main suggestions are:
- Respawn timers either remain the same or their duration is greatly increased.
- Clearing injuries becomes much more expensive then it is now if the respawn timers remain the same.
- Adding a revive option.
- If the respawn timers are increased: then there could be no further consequences. Prolonged waiting would be the main consequence for dying. Adding a revive option (or rebuild option since we're talking about ships) could still be done. Players would have to be more careful and other things besides DPS might become important without necessarily changing the entire game and implementing a 'holy trinity'.
- If the respawn timers remain the same: then they should significantly increase the costs of removing injuries. They could add to the revive option a secondary effect that automatically removes the newly obtained injury. This would ensure that you can take the risk of dying and quick respawning, but only if you are prepared to either face high costs or wait until someone repairs your ship.
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
I'd say put the no respawns option on elite only. There are many ways that the NPCs can cheat you to death and it'd make the normal/advanced queues very difficult to pug.
I think the OP doesn't go far enough tbh. I've been arguing to for permanent character death for years now. It makes sense from both a storyline perspective and a balancing perspective. If your toon dies, you'd have to start over again.
It would also promote learning how the game works instead of joining a match without any real idea what's going on.
I agree 100% wholeheartedly nabreeki, this game has needed a permanent death mechanic for YEARS! Hopefully the devs read this!
> @nabreeki said: > The posts in this thread are like people on WebMD treating an illness without a proper diagnosis. Sure, there's an off-chance they may relieve some periphery symptoms, but the root of the problem remains intact. Increase injury effectiveness. Reinstate hard fail conditions. No respawns on elite. > > These are short-term bandaids, when the root of the problem is a noisy segment of the playerbase. At one time we had hard fail conditions. Players whined about them constantly until Cryptic relented. These same players could have just played normal. Players demand nerfs when other players -- better players -- have better DPS and rip through queues like nothing (the bad players rightfully get punished with AFK penalties). > > An extreme example: the winter event snowballs had a 20% knockdown effect on players from other factions. This was too much for some and they whined until the knockdown effect was removed. > > Perma-death solves multiple problems at once: it significantly ramps up challenge and competition (the latter if applied to PvP) while forcing an undesirable subsection of the community to shape up or ship off. If it's the latter, all the better. > > A Kobali token from the Cstore can restore your dead toon into a Kobali version, and you can recover between 50-75% of your inventory by exploring the "ghost ships" floating around different areas of sector space. > > There really is no down side.
That is genuinely one of the worst ideas I have ever heard.
Yeah sorry @nabreeki but all you’re doing it reinforcing that elitist attitude you seem to have been portraying all through this thread. Yes the game needs more challenge, yes perhaps a hardcore mode would be cool, or changes to injuries . But STO has neither the demand or the interest from the general players for such extremes as perms-death. It doesn’t need a purge either. There are no undesirable players here, just people who you feel don’t fit your elitist nonsense qualifications and so should have their game access pushed from them. That’s a poor attitude to have for an mmo and especially a Trek based media. The one thing this game needs now is player numbers, not stupid mechanics to make it less desirable to play.
Nonsense about snowballs being nerfed is nothing to do with making the game better or improving players, they were used purely for trolling and you bloody well know it.
But I think we all know what you’re up to here really.
Oh ffs. @badmoonrisin please close this topic before it ends up in a flame war. When idiots start bringing terrorist attacks into a discussion about game mechanics it’s quite clear they are just stiring up trouble and trolling.
Comments
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Remember, Ground 'death' is not death but unconsciousness.
Someone must have seen the new Season of 'Twin Peaks' with the ghostly resurrectors.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
You say you don't want a purge then repeat that you want conditions set that will drive those you deem unworthy out of "your" game. That makes me wonder....why are you still playing STO if it doesn't challenge or entertain you? Something's keeping you playing, in spite of the frustrations you've expressed. I'm a console player (XBONE) and have been here since console launch, but it's clear to me this game is aimed squarely at Trekkies, Trekkers and DS9/VOY (and eventually TRIBBLE) fans, with the intent to make lots of money by giving them an environment in which they can more or less RP as a starship captain in the Star Trek universe, and like Captain Kirk, beat the odds, no matter how long, and save the Universe on a daily basis. Perhaps it was different in the earlier days on PC, but that is where it's at now as far as I can tell. Suddenly turning this into a hardcore game that is even more unforgiving than Dark Souls (even that game doesn't kill your toon when you get taken down) is going to narrow a niche clientele...all Star Trek Fans....that is large enough to support a MMO, into a far smaller subset of the parent niche...Star Trek Fans who crave a brutally unforgiving gaming experience. Sounds like a good way to kill the game to me.
Seems to me it would be more profitable trying to figure out ways to make ques more challenging and rewarding (and better populated) than to float highly unrealistic ideas designed solely to make the casuals and RPers head for the exits so that only the "Elite" remain....because there aren't enough of the latter to carry this game, a fact I'm sure Cryptic is well aware of.
If there really were a market for such a game...and it would need to be designed around the concept for it to work...you'd think someone would have created it by now.
That could work
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
I also find it quite insulting that you think you are so much better than you can consider saying how much better the game would be if others not up to your standards left. That, IMHO, is the worst part about MMO's, elitist TRIBBLE that think if you're not at MY LEVEL of play, you don't deserve to play.
I played hard core, I played EQ when there was level loss, exp loss and you lost your gear because it rotted. I played eve (still do off and on), you want hard core cut throat.....meet me in null sec, we can talk about it.
STO is a VERY casual MMO in my opinion, that's why I play it, its relaxing, I can go into a STF with my space magician and do fine. I don't have to be the god of DPS or anything else for that matter. You only want to play STF's with people up to your level, go in with pre-mades.
As for they poster that goes into STF pug's just to laugh at others, pretty sad commentary on yourself TBH.
Possibly you need to find a MMO that measures up to your standards.
Easy to answer. Then all failed the PVE, and all can queue up again for a new run.
In very popular team playing games like PUBG this happens all the time. When you are dead and not revived by teammate you stay dead till all are dead or have won.
But tell me what is the problem with teamplay when there is an incentive to actualy take care of each other during team play. Keeping some one else alive etc? Currently there is in 95% of the runs no real team play in PVE's. Most are playing solo in PVE because there is no reason to help each other because well every one respawns anyway.
Oh you shouldn't be insulted. You must learn to ignore certain messages from certain posters on here. Especially when they're posting such elitist asteriskes.
Don't take them too serious, it's never going to happen anyway, the whole perma-death thing.
There are some good other suggestions here though.
Well that would fix the issue of bad players running around with dozens of injuries, but it still wouldn't change much within a queue, it wouldn't promote team work, healing or anything like that. It could work but injuries would also have to be something that you really want to avoid, for example due to high costs for clearing them.
Then there would be a real incentive not to die.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
I'm not an elitist, and I don't care about bragging about pixelated achievements, because this isn't a powerlifting contest - it's sitting on your asss all day. Nonetheless I do enjoy a decent challenge, because if everything at some point dies in 1-shot, it gets quickly boring.
Best I can hope for is increased rewards for the hard elites, and/or tougher enemies in general.
1) DPS needs to be nerfed, HARD
2) Self heals need to be reduced, a LOT
3) Respawns need to be eliminated, and the healer will need a "repair/rez" function
So, ya all ok with loosing DPS, loosing self heals ? Did not think so.
Its just not that type of game, to many people here are advocating for the holy trinity again, Tank/DPS/Heals and or CC.
Also "to many injuries" wont stop anything with free "healing" now at esd, and raising that wont cause ANY outcry at all.
I can see possibly a more robust injury system, but not much more. You are asking for a different game, to much change....basically, you want the entire combat system re-worked. Not gonna happen.
Relating that to STO: it works for Sompek. I've never seen as much team work as I've seen in that queue, even in PUGs. Especially in PUGs actually.
Giving reviving a much larger role could definitely be beneficial.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
Yes well that right there is why the current injury system if so naff. Whats the point of my ship getting damaged or my boffs being injured if it costs me literally zero resources to correct those issues? I mean having repair gear to fix things on the fly is cool and all but you want to incentivize players to NOT get injured, and that means make it so they DO NOT want to die.
That means players "might" try to act less as if it's all constant DPS races, or not bothering with cross healing, or not valuing support roles, if it means that should they die it costs a lot to repair.
The current system is a shambles. I can have literally 10-20+ injuries and suffer barely any noticeable difference in my ship's performance. And to fix all that, should i wish to, will not cost me a penny at a starbase, or a few EC outside of that.
That sort of nonsense doesn't encourage improvement, it just makes people ignore dying.
No of course the perma-death thing is not happening. So why aren't you just dismissing and then ignoring it? Worked great for me.
Anyway, in general:
I've thought again a bit about the different posts I made in this thread and I'd like to combine some of the suggestions. My main suggestions are:
- Respawn timers either remain the same or their duration is greatly increased.
- Clearing injuries becomes much more expensive then it is now if the respawn timers remain the same.
- Adding a revive option.
- If the respawn timers are increased: then there could be no further consequences. Prolonged waiting would be the main consequence for dying. Adding a revive option (or rebuild option since we're talking about ships) could still be done. Players would have to be more careful and other things besides DPS might become important without necessarily changing the entire game and implementing a 'holy trinity'.
- If the respawn timers remain the same: then they should significantly increase the costs of removing injuries. They could add to the revive option a secondary effect that automatically removes the newly obtained injury. This would ensure that you can take the risk of dying and quick respawning, but only if you are prepared to either face high costs or wait until someone repairs your ship.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
I agree 100% wholeheartedly nabreeki, this game has needed a permanent death mechanic for YEARS! Hopefully the devs read this!
> The posts in this thread are like people on WebMD treating an illness without a proper diagnosis. Sure, there's an off-chance they may relieve some periphery symptoms, but the root of the problem remains intact. Increase injury effectiveness. Reinstate hard fail conditions. No respawns on elite.
>
> These are short-term bandaids, when the root of the problem is a noisy segment of the playerbase. At one time we had hard fail conditions. Players whined about them constantly until Cryptic relented. These same players could have just played normal. Players demand nerfs when other players -- better players -- have better DPS and rip through queues like nothing (the bad players rightfully get punished with AFK penalties).
>
> An extreme example: the winter event snowballs had a 20% knockdown effect on players from other factions. This was too much for some and they whined until the knockdown effect was removed.
>
> Perma-death solves multiple problems at once: it significantly ramps up challenge and competition (the latter if applied to PvP) while forcing an undesirable subsection of the community to shape up or ship off. If it's the latter, all the better.
>
> A Kobali token from the Cstore can restore your dead toon into a Kobali version, and you can recover between 50-75% of your inventory by exploring the "ghost ships" floating around different areas of sector space.
>
> There really is no down side.
That is genuinely one of the worst ideas I have ever heard.
Yes the game needs more challenge, yes perhaps a hardcore mode would be cool, or changes to injuries . But STO has neither the demand or the interest from the general players for such extremes as perms-death.
It doesn’t need a purge either. There are no undesirable players here, just people who you feel don’t fit your elitist nonsense qualifications and so should have their game access pushed from them. That’s a poor attitude to have for an mmo and especially a Trek based media. The one thing this game needs now is player numbers, not stupid mechanics to make it less desirable to play.
Nonsense about snowballs being nerfed is nothing to do with making the game better or improving players, they were used purely for trolling and you bloody well know it.
But I think we all know what you’re up to here really.
When idiots start bringing terrorist attacks into a discussion about game mechanics it’s quite clear they are just stiring up trouble and trolling.