Look no further than 'Transdimensional Tactics' a 'Hard' Mission on Nakura Prime. You try to Respawn there and you are locked out in the waiting area until it is over.
This is one way to go about it. But even with this, if the others manage to complete the queue, you still get the reward. Which the optional for this one is usually a 99% fail right off. Someone always steps in the acid pool on the way to starting the fight.
But that plays in to the increased reward I mentioned for completing the optional. Though Transdimensional does allow for one to respawn and learn the how to do the STF. So it could use a bit of work on the respawn point. Which that is the main premise of this post. Figuring out a way to provide enough incentive for the players to learn how to do the STFs.
Here is food for thought to those calling for permanent death. Have you even given any thought into the cash players spent for Epic gear? Ignoring farming or buying off the exchange lets use the current 20 key ring with instant epic one per purchase as an example. Each key ring set costs 2250 zen or 25 bucks. So typical crusier is a 4x4 weapons with 4 sots for deflectors,engines, warp core, and shields then another 11 slots for consoles. Thats 23 slots total or 575 dollars to bring ONE typical cruiser up to Epic not counting the level of the gear either. Ad in all the upgradeable gear on your charecter and we are into about a grand. So with most if these being locked to a charecter they go bye bye with permanent death. I don't know about you but losing that kind of money to making a mistake or from some one elese **** up either by mistake or on purpose we all have run into those players and I'll take even money you have tanked things on purpose as well and having your ship and charecter die is a major wallet hit. So yeah rethink what you are pushing for.
Here is food for thought to those calling for permanent death. Have you even given any thought into the cash players spent for Epic gear? Ignoring farming or buying off the exchange lets use the current 20 key ring with instant epic one per purchase as an example. Each key ring set costs 2250 zen or 25 bucks. So typical crusier is a 4x4 weapons with 4 sots for deflectors,engines, warp core, and shields then another 11 slots for consoles. Thats 23 slots total or 575 dollars to bring ONE typical cruiser up to Epic not counting the level of the gear either. Ad in all the upgradeable gear on your charecter and we are into about a grand. So with most if these being locked to a charecter they go bye bye with permanent death. I don't know about you but losing that kind of money to making a mistake or from some one elese **** up either by mistake or on purpose we all have run into those players and I'll take even money you have tanked things on purpose as well and having your ship and charecter die is a major wallet hit. So yeah rethink what you are pushing for.
I don't feel sorry for people losing money on things that can be achieved without spending money in the first place. A fool and his money are soon parted, after all.
Perma-death is a major positive step in restructuring the game, attracting a different type of player that, honestly, might give this game a second life. Right now we have many thousands of part time players (those who only hop on for new missions/season events), some sunk-cost fallacy lunatics, RPers (thankfully in much diminished numbers), "casual players" who use the term "Casual" to mask "I suck at this game but refuse to learn", and a growing majority of players who are looking for more -- more challenge, difficulty. They want to go into a battle with something at stake.
Removal of the hard fail conditions in STFs was a major misstep. To improve the general competency of the playerbase, we need a new population of players and a way to incentivize competent gameplay in the existing playerbase. For those who can't keep up, the know where the door is.
It's also a great idea for balancing out space wealth. Those who die will have 24 hours to recover some of their inventory, but not all. Throughout history, calamity has been the great equalizer within civilizations.
The answer to your question, ssbn655, appears to be "Yes, but IDGAF because i'm so l33t that I won't be hoist on my own petard" . From the posts in this thread, he/she/it seems to see permadeath as the perfect mechanism to purge STO of the filthy casuals, potatoes, and *gasp* RPers that infest it, and usher in a new golden age in which the self proclaimed elite players, an august group of whom he/she/it is undoubtedly a member, will frolic in sunlit uplands, and never meet or have to deal with anyone who doesn't think or play the game like they do ever again.
But sterner measure will be required to see such a purge through properly....it must be extended to failing a Admiralty or Duty Officer mission to catch the "cheaters" who tried to evade "justice" by not actually doing missions or PVE and hoping to ride it out by sticking to DOff and Admiralty Missions until the plummeting playerbase brings Cryptic to their senses. And to force the crafters and Ferengi wannabes to put some skin in the game too, there needs to be a way to enable "elite" players to expropriate their space wealth by right of conquest...why should they get to sit on dozens of lockbox ships to sell on the exchange with impunity? They should be forced to prove they are worthy of having their space wealth by defending it with their lives, if need be. I can see it now...a mandatory PVP que where the winner gets all the loser's stuffz....if the player doesn't show up for the match a bot fights for them in a random ship from their active roster. Hiding the space wealth in an alt account won't help them because if they don't level up that alt they'll just find themselves in a T1 Miranda facing a 150,000 DPS buzzsaw with billions in space wealth on the line. Great fun, I'm sure they'll get tons of new players....not.
PS - Is it not fashionable to buy ship/bank/Doff ect slots or something? All I see people discuss losing with a toon is lobi/lockbox stuff, nobody seemed to bring up what else costing Zen would go *poof* with a toon dying.
You show a lot of promise.
I liked this post. Keep it up!
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
You don't need dil to make your stuff epic you can use omega techs.
You Missed that Is aid ignore the various ways of getting dilth ETC. and lets use the current 20 key ring as an example. Trying to get apoint across that be it by cash or farming on events there is a large investment of time and cash in one form or another to get everything to epic. And without the instant upgrade in the 20 key ring the cost can be way higher then the numbers I used.
Here is food for thought to those calling for permanent death. Have you even given any thought into the cash players spent for Epic gear? Ignoring farming or buying off the exchange lets use the current 20 key ring with instant epic one per purchase as an example. Each key ring set costs 2250 zen or 25 bucks. So typical crusier is a 4x4 weapons with 4 sots for deflectors,engines, warp core, and shields then another 11 slots for consoles. Thats 23 slots total or 575 dollars to bring ONE typical cruiser up to Epic not counting the level of the gear either. Ad in all the upgradeable gear on your charecter and we are into about a grand. So with most if these being locked to a charecter they go bye bye with permanent death. I don't know about you but losing that kind of money to making a mistake or from some one elese **** up either by mistake or on purpose we all have run into those players and I'll take even money you have tanked things on purpose as well and having your ship and charecter die is a major wallet hit. So yeah rethink what you are pushing for.
I don't feel sorry for people losing money on things that can be achieved without spending money in the first place. A fool and his money are soon parted, after all.
Perma-death is a major positive step in restructuring the game, attracting a different type of player that, honestly, might give this game a second life. Right now we have many thousands of part time players (those who only hop on for new missions/season events), some sunk-cost fallacy lunatics, RPers (thankfully in much diminished numbers), "casual players" who use the term "Casual" to mask "I suck at this game but refuse to learn", and a growing majority of players who are looking for more -- more challenge, difficulty. They want to go into a battle with something at stake.
Removal of the hard fail conditions in STFs was a major misstep. To improve the general competency of the playerbase, we need a new population of players and a way to incentivize competent gameplay in the existing playerbase. For those who can't keep up, the know where the door is.
It's also a great idea for balancing out space wealth. Those who die will have 24 hours to recover some of their inventory, but not all. Throughout history, calamity has been the great equalizer within civilizations.
Spoken like a true jealous person who wishes that those who work hard to get thier items gets punished and you get rewarded. Yeah people like you are the first to whine when things don't go thier way.
Back on topic, though: the game needs a dramatic shake-up. The average player in STO is given no incentive to learn the game because everything is handed to them -- the result is a woefully uninformed, miserably incompetent, pitifully space-poor underclass of players.
Perma-death would provide the needed incentive to improve oneself in the game. Failure is often a first step towards success.
Perma-death only works when it's optional, like with Diablo's hardcore option. The only MMO I've played that had perma-death was SWG for it's Jedi characters, and that was quickly removed.
I'd like to thank the OP and others advocating perma death for a good hearty laugh that I needed this weekend, which was rather crappy. Because this entire thread was very funny and amusing to read.
While it ridiculous to remove respawn as it exists in almost EVERY mmo that has pve in it, Perma death could be an option that you could turn on or off personally, but not by default for everyone. If someone wants to take that risk, they should be able to, but it should not be forced on the entire player base, that is just beyond ridiculous. That's just some straight up salty "I want it my way" stuff.
Only for PVE. And additionally as a toggle setting in the options menu just like the difficulty settings. So every one can shoose how they like to play. With no respawn or without respawn in PVE. Including some additional rewards like e.g. extra marks, or MK XIV items for the survivors.
I don't see the devs putting a perma death mechanic in the game, as well that kind of mechanic is really a niche style of play. Even if you use the idea of other games that have you basically have a back-up of your character that when you die you revive as (ala EVE), or a mechanic that upon death your character is reduced back to either level one or has their level reduced a certain amount. Or a form of gear/purchase insurance that protect items from being lost when you die (this could be for all items in a single purchase, or a per-item basis). Both options are most likely just not appealing to the devs to implement into the game, and are not actually a incentive for many to improve actually.
If anything making it that to do advanced or elite difficulties of the stfs would require going thru some form of vetting process. Such as that to get the ability to que for an advanced stf you had to complete the normal difficulty with the optionals intact, while to go into the elite you would need to complete the advanced difficulty of that stf with all the optionals completed ,and that might even maybe need to done a certain number of times.
They did change the wording. I certainly never saw the word "optional" applied to any of the fail conditions by anyone but the complainers. Never had any trouble seeing which objectives were optional and which ones mandatory, even in missions where that would randomly change between runs.
Nor did I ever see any of the complainers at the time ask that they correct the wording in any objective, just demand that they all be removed because it's "too hard" if Advanced content isn't guaranteed to win.
I'd like to thank the OP and others advocating perma death for a good hearty laugh that I needed this weekend, which was rather crappy. Because this entire thread was very funny and amusing to read.
While it ridiculous to remove respawn as it exists in almost EVERY mmo that has pve in it, Perma death could be an option that you could turn on or off personally, but not by default for everyone. If someone wants to take that risk, they should be able to, but it should not be forced on the entire player base, that is just beyond ridiculous. That's just some straight up salty "I want it my way" stuff.
Only for PVE. And additionally as a toggle setting in the options menu just like the difficulty settings. So every one can shoose how they like to play. With no respawn or without respawn in PVE. Including some additional rewards like e.g. extra marks, or MK XIV items for the survivors.
You do have the option of manually deleting your toon everytime you die, if that's how you actualy want to play it.
Have it as an option if people want a hardcore more, sure. Even have no respawns as a less severe hardcore more.
But when certain people start talking about an “underclass “ of players it’s clear we’re heading into questionable territory. STO is a casual game and there is nothing wrong g with how anyone wa us to play it, using the tools laid down for them by Cryptic. To suggest certain people should be removed/forced from the game because of some arbitrary measure of their competence is not the sort of thing welcome in any mmo, let alone a Trek one. Clearly someone is either deluded or to trolling people with such suggestions.
I must disagree with this notion quite strongly. The fact that there is a wait between respawns, and advanced and elite difficulties add "injuries" to characters and ships is more than enough. So, I'll just say no to removing respawns.
Resident TOS, G.I. Joe, Transformers and hair metal fangirl.
People asked for this back when the game was released. Heck I asked for this back when the game was released. The devs slightly gave in by introducing injuries.
Since then things have changed drastically in regards to both gameplay and playerbase. The gameplay is more and more about P2W, the playerbase meanwhile is made up of casuals (basically people who like Trek and want more Trek, but aren't necessarily interested in playing games).
As much as I would love a more indepth game, it's just not possible.
STO is a casual space combat game with a Trek IP attached to it. The vast majority of players I’d wager are Trekkies first and gamers second. So I really doubt there’s much demand for super-mega-hardcore instadeath mechanics like some sort of Trek-themed combo of EVE and Dark Souls. And to suggest these people have any less right to play or are some sort of less worthy player of this casual of casual games it ridiculous and immature nonsense.
I've gotten extremely powerful, and enough so to finish most content with just pugs. I don't use the channels anymore except an occassional "join this or that pug" msg. The only challenge left in the game is PvP really.
We need something more challenging (and rewarding at the same time). Some semblance of an actual end-game, besides PvP, without actually punishing noobs and thin-skinned scrubs too hard.
If they can't pull off something intelligent enough to work, then leave things as they are, and accept that this is an outdated game best left to a slow death.
I've gotten extremely powerful, and enough so to finish most content with just pugs.
Not really a good point of reference. Unless half of the pug team actively works to sabotage your efforts, you can finish most content with them, even if you're far from the DPS-elite treshold.
I've gotten extremely powerful, and enough so to finish most content with just pugs.
Not really a good point of reference. Unless half of the pug team actively works to sabotage your efforts, you can finish most content with them, even if you're far from the DPS-elite treshold.
Translation: the game becomes extremely easy and simplistic at some point. I don't know if that's "normal" for this game, but boredom quickly follows when you're not being challenged enough.
Have it as an option if people want a hardcore more, sure. Even have no respawns as a less severe hardcore more.
But when certain people start talking about an “underclass “ of players it’s clear we’re heading into questionable territory. STO is a casual game and there is nothing wrong g with how anyone wa us to play it, using the tools laid down for them by Cryptic. To suggest certain people should be removed/forced from the game because of some arbitrary measure of their competence is not the sort of thing welcome in any mmo, let alone a Trek one. Clearly someone is either deluded or to trolling people with such suggestions.
Agreed.
My personal observation would be that players actually DON'T seem to want 'more hardcore' otherwise the truly difficult PvE content, such as Korfez, would be more heavily populated.
Some players do want harder content, but also rewarding content. The queue reward structure horribly undercuts hard and long content. Why would people play Korfez, when doing a run of CCA+ISA would give the same if not more rewards with zero risk and a fraction of the time?
Playing hard content for basically nothing but bragging rights only goes so far.
How about this? I'll ignore Nabreeki's call for permadeath and counter with what about adding parts of the relevant rep set as a reward for doing elite?
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
There are many ways to make stuff harder than just adding perma-death. But when that's done, there better be better rewards, otherwise it's just bragging for nothing. Like HGE/HSE is a lot of fun to test your 'end-game' gear, but the rewards suck.
I liked the suggestion of adding a revive option similar to what we have on the ground.
Maybe they could combine that with significantly increasing the respawn timer, to discourage dying a bit more. Cause I do agree with some posters here that there are too few consequences for dying.
Injuries aren't all that problematic when they can easily be removed, or even for free at every major hub. They could significantly increase the costs for clearing injuries, and for example make it such that you don't get an injury if someone else revives you - to promote team work a bit at the same time.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
I say no to permadeath. This is not Eve Online this is STO. Thanks.
Eve Online doesn't have perma-death. This would be a revolutionary step in MMO history, no doubt. It would add a sense of danger and excitement to an otherwise tame and banal game. It would also allow the game to progress in a completely new direction and would clear out a lot of undesirables from the general playerbase.
That step was taken. By Gamepot with Wizardry Online. The game was eventually shut down. But this wasn't on the lack of players. It was on the lack that Gamepot failed to properly advertise it and only made the game. They didn't hardy do any bug fixes or add new content.
They had a good perma-death setup though. When you died, you could release your spirit, like in WoW. Then you had 15 minutes to make it back to you corpse to revive. IF you didn't make it in this amount of time, you were sent back to the character creation screen.
They did change the wording. I certainly never saw the word "optional" applied to any of the fail conditions by anyone but the complainers. Never had any trouble seeing which objectives were optional and which ones mandatory, even in missions where that would randomly change between runs.
Nor did I ever see any of the complainers at the time ask that they correct the wording in any objective, just demand that they all be removed because it's "too hard" if Advanced content isn't guaranteed to win.
I'd like to thank the OP and others advocating perma death for a good hearty laugh that I needed this weekend, which was rather crappy. Because this entire thread was very funny and amusing to read.
While it ridiculous to remove respawn as it exists in almost EVERY mmo that has pve in it, Perma death could be an option that you could turn on or off personally, but not by default for everyone. If someone wants to take that risk, they should be able to, but it should not be forced on the entire player base, that is just beyond ridiculous. That's just some straight up salty "I want it my way" stuff.
Only for PVE. And additionally as a toggle setting in the options menu just like the difficulty settings. So every one can shoose how they like to play. With no respawn or without respawn in PVE. Including some additional rewards like e.g. extra marks, or MK XIV items for the survivors.
You do have the option of manually deleting your toon everytime you die, if that's how you actualy want to play it.
Manualy deleting toon everytime you die, that is something people always can do, however then all the items gets lost (unless you first spend much time to copy all items too an other toon manualy, which is not realy fun to do). When some one dies (in real life) successors normaly inherit everything. So having to delete toons is not very practical. The opposite of perma dead and completely removing a toon is total invincebility why dying in the first place if you revive in seconds. How would teamplay be more fun with removing toons or total invincability? I am not fan of these extremes.
I was not suggesting perma death as in toon gets deleted, but removing respawn in a PVE run as a additional difficulty setting (read my OP and other responses in this topic). If you die while respwan toggle difficulty seting is set to off, you dont get the rewards the survivors get, but you are allowed to queue again for the same event without delay. Off course when the respawn toggel option is set to off rewards are higher (more marks better items) for the survivers then when respawn is switched on (just like rewards are higher on ADV and ELITE difficulty setting)
As I said before, I think teamplay becomes more important when team has te make sure everyone stays alive. Currently most people play like solo during PVE dont care if others die or not. When helping others not to die is part of the PVE gameplay, also roles like healers, etc become more rewarding. Part of real team play IS helping each others. But if there are no consequences and no benefits why would people help each other?
Although not a true MMO, Diablo 2 has a hardcore mode which pretty much means if you character dies you won't be able to get it back, except in the singleplayer mode where you can get it back via the Hero Editor tool.
Adding better rewards to elite as elite stands now is a waste, because elite isn't all that difficult to win in the first place. More rewards with zero added challenge. this is the poisonous mentality I'm talking about.
Try pugging DGE. But I agree if all players can complete all PVE's on ELITE all the time, whats the need for having ADV or NORMAL PVE's?
Comments
This is one way to go about it. But even with this, if the others manage to complete the queue, you still get the reward. Which the optional for this one is usually a 99% fail right off. Someone always steps in the acid pool on the way to starting the fight.
But that plays in to the increased reward I mentioned for completing the optional. Though Transdimensional does allow for one to respawn and learn the how to do the STF. So it could use a bit of work on the respawn point. Which that is the main premise of this post. Figuring out a way to provide enough incentive for the players to learn how to do the STFs.
You show a lot of promise.
I liked this post. Keep it up!
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
Edit: Did not know there was no permadeath in Eve Online. But the rest of my statement stands. No to to permadeath.
You Missed that Is aid ignore the various ways of getting dilth ETC. and lets use the current 20 key ring as an example. Trying to get apoint across that be it by cash or farming on events there is a large investment of time and cash in one form or another to get everything to epic. And without the instant upgrade in the 20 key ring the cost can be way higher then the numbers I used.
Spoken like a true jealous person who wishes that those who work hard to get thier items gets punished and you get rewarded. Yeah people like you are the first to whine when things don't go thier way.
Perma-death only works when it's optional, like with Diablo's hardcore option. The only MMO I've played that had perma-death was SWG for it's Jedi characters, and that was quickly removed.
Only for PVE. And additionally as a toggle setting in the options menu just like the difficulty settings. So every one can shoose how they like to play. With no respawn or without respawn in PVE. Including some additional rewards like e.g. extra marks, or MK XIV items for the survivors.
If anything making it that to do advanced or elite difficulties of the stfs would require going thru some form of vetting process. Such as that to get the ability to que for an advanced stf you had to complete the normal difficulty with the optionals intact, while to go into the elite you would need to complete the advanced difficulty of that stf with all the optionals completed ,and that might even maybe need to done a certain number of times.
They did change the wording. I certainly never saw the word "optional" applied to any of the fail conditions by anyone but the complainers. Never had any trouble seeing which objectives were optional and which ones mandatory, even in missions where that would randomly change between runs.
Nor did I ever see any of the complainers at the time ask that they correct the wording in any objective, just demand that they all be removed because it's "too hard" if Advanced content isn't guaranteed to win.
People just didn't read the fing objectives.
You do have the option of manually deleting your toon everytime you die, if that's how you actualy want to play it.
But when certain people start talking about an “underclass “ of players it’s clear we’re heading into questionable territory. STO is a casual game and there is nothing wrong g with how anyone wa us to play it, using the tools laid down for them by Cryptic. To suggest certain people should be removed/forced from the game because of some arbitrary measure of their competence is not the sort of thing welcome in any mmo, let alone a Trek one. Clearly someone is either deluded or to trolling people with such suggestions.
And knowing is half the battle!
21 'til I die!
Since then things have changed drastically in regards to both gameplay and playerbase. The gameplay is more and more about P2W, the playerbase meanwhile is made up of casuals (basically people who like Trek and want more Trek, but aren't necessarily interested in playing games).
As much as I would love a more indepth game, it's just not possible.
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
And to suggest these people have any less right to play or are some sort of less worthy player of this casual of casual games it ridiculous and immature nonsense.
We need something more challenging (and rewarding at the same time). Some semblance of an actual end-game, besides PvP, without actually punishing noobs and thin-skinned scrubs too hard.
If they can't pull off something intelligent enough to work, then leave things as they are, and accept that this is an outdated game best left to a slow death.
Translation: the game becomes extremely easy and simplistic at some point. I don't know if that's "normal" for this game, but boredom quickly follows when you're not being challenged enough.
Playing hard content for basically nothing but bragging rights only goes so far.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Some rough examples:
-make enemies tougher/smarter
-make objectives harder
-make injuries/ship damage actually count
But at the same time it must be beatable, and not absurd. Fine-tuning isn't Cryptic's best strength, but heck, maybe they'll learn.
Maybe they could combine that with significantly increasing the respawn timer, to discourage dying a bit more. Cause I do agree with some posters here that there are too few consequences for dying.
Injuries aren't all that problematic when they can easily be removed, or even for free at every major hub. They could significantly increase the costs for clearing injuries, and for example make it such that you don't get an injury if someone else revives you - to promote team work a bit at the same time.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
That step was taken. By Gamepot with Wizardry Online. The game was eventually shut down. But this wasn't on the lack of players. It was on the lack that Gamepot failed to properly advertise it and only made the game. They didn't hardy do any bug fixes or add new content.
They had a good perma-death setup though. When you died, you could release your spirit, like in WoW. Then you had 15 minutes to make it back to you corpse to revive. IF you didn't make it in this amount of time, you were sent back to the character creation screen.
Manualy deleting toon everytime you die, that is something people always can do, however then all the items gets lost (unless you first spend much time to copy all items too an other toon manualy, which is not realy fun to do). When some one dies (in real life) successors normaly inherit everything. So having to delete toons is not very practical. The opposite of perma dead and completely removing a toon is total invincebility why dying in the first place if you revive in seconds. How would teamplay be more fun with removing toons or total invincability? I am not fan of these extremes.
I was not suggesting perma death as in toon gets deleted, but removing respawn in a PVE run as a additional difficulty setting (read my OP and other responses in this topic). If you die while respwan toggle difficulty seting is set to off, you dont get the rewards the survivors get, but you are allowed to queue again for the same event without delay. Off course when the respawn toggel option is set to off rewards are higher (more marks better items) for the survivers then when respawn is switched on (just like rewards are higher on ADV and ELITE difficulty setting)
As I said before, I think teamplay becomes more important when team has te make sure everyone stays alive. Currently most people play like solo during PVE dont care if others die or not. When helping others not to die is part of the PVE gameplay, also roles like healers, etc become more rewarding. Part of real team play IS helping each others. But if there are no consequences and no benefits why would people help each other?
Try pugging DGE. But I agree if all players can complete all PVE's on ELITE all the time, whats the need for having ADV or NORMAL PVE's?