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Respawing option should be removed in PVE
totenmet
Member Posts: 592 Arc User
To improve teamplay and improve roleplaying the respawning option should be removed from PVE (it's dabatble if it should be remove totaly or only from Advance or Elite PVE's).
This way the need for Sci and Eng healers in a team becomes more important to be able to achieve the PVE goal. Team play becames more important. And ther will be more gratitude towards each other like saying "thanks for the heal, I almost died" phrase will be seen more often etc.
It's a bid odd to die in a PVE but just be able to respawn after some seconds, like nothing has happend. When death is permanent in a PVE, people will have to take more care about each other, hence improving teamplay.
This way the need for Sci and Eng healers in a team becomes more important to be able to achieve the PVE goal. Team play becames more important. And ther will be more gratitude towards each other like saying "thanks for the heal, I almost died" phrase will be seen more often etc.
It's a bid odd to die in a PVE but just be able to respawn after some seconds, like nothing has happend. When death is permanent in a PVE, people will have to take more care about each other, hence improving teamplay.
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a) The complaints from the glass cannon brigade would be on a par with some of the past "balance" passes that have reduced effectiveness of various pieces of equipment.
b) Many missions are so dps orientated that removing a respawn will have no affect because all the NPC's are dead before they do any real damage and thus place any need on a healer.
c) Because of the way the NPC's are built and their weapons set up, there are a good deal of times when a player dies because the NPC fires a weapon that near enough one shots them (Borg Invisible Torps of days gone by in ISA or Terran Torpedo spreads for example), no healer is going to be any use in saving players from those.
Something like having to have another player resurrect/render emergency repairs might be a bit more likely to work, but with PUGs in this game if it will I'm not sure.
How about.... instead of putting no respawn's in all queues from Normal, ADV, Elite...
Perhaps they could make another difficulty level -> "Hardcore Elite"
Basically, Elite level queues with no respawn's.
Rewards could be increased to 1.25-1.5x, and maybe these "Hardcore Elite" missions could give accolades/titles for their completion...
Interesting idea OP.
Personally though I'm still waiting for them to add Elite Difficulties to all queues. Also the ability to start any queue by yourself.
Whoe cares? They'll complain no matter what Cryptic does.
The DPS focus is why they are dead. It makes them entirely to boring.
This would place the ability to survive on the player as well. If you build a glass cannon, it's your fault for dying. Survival should always be a part of a build. This should be enforced with every part of the game, including episodes. If you can't survive you can't win.
The one shots from the old ISE and Terran torps aren't a mechanic. They're a bug. But the randomness of them happening also added to the challenge of the the old Borg Elites.
I like the render emergency repairs part, though we have this for ground already. As you don't die in STO, you are rendered unconscious. As far as what happens in PUGs. Well, Starbase Blockade is a good indicator here. Very few carry the skills and understand the simple mechanic of heal the freighter.
I turned my Fed Sci from back then in to a dil farmer. It use to be a Space/Ground healer, with the setup to tank Aramek. Now there is not much of a call for a healer.
Sompek has the parts that one has to consider on rival as well. Hazard and Lightning. The hazard part not much of of a worry until round 50, when they're always active. Lightning, well.. not good to revive someone, only to have the die again to that.
Also note, that with the focus being more on DPS. There are very few mechanics throughout the game that require more than that. SO for the mechanics part of it you can blame Crypitic. As far as the understanding of how to use these mechanics, and that they would be better than letting someone respawn, this can be blamed on the players. IT's the downfall of the focus being on DPS alone. When comes to survival mechanics, DPS builds can't help but fail.
Thus cooperation becomes a fail condition, if one player doesn't then the team's chances are monumentally reduced compared to "pack" style teams we see now. Alternatively, if the PVE system doesn't match a team with all required roles filled the chances of success are likewise reduced.
This is a non-starter.
There is no objective reason why STO should adopt the tank, healer, DPS model of MMO combat (IE. your apparent idea of "teamplay") through direct or indirect balance changes. It's a style. STO has it's own. Inserting arbitrary conditions to force STO out of its niche without a very clear idea of what the impact will be across all dimensions has a significant probability of failure given the greater proportion of mal-adaptive space in the topographical landscape of video game functionality.
IE. it's mucking about for the sake of it and that's a bad idea.
A more productive proposal would be to find ways where players can cooperate within STO's current style of gameplay. You might want something else, but in the realm of video game feedback that counts for moot because you can always chose to play another game which better caters to your interests. No need to for any one dev to remake classic MMO combat when you can log into classic MMO's right now, this is what comes from having a well developed genre. Let STO be STO because it's style of teamed combat is perfectly valid and appealing for its own reasons.
So, think about how to make STO better on its own terms. IE. with teams that operate in loose packs. We have mechanics for how to make this work now (ex. team buffs) and with some accentuation Cryptic might be able to create more active gameplay interactions between team members (ie. buffs with more punch but shorter cooldowns and duration.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
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This is a good place to start.
The return to more team oriented play is rather simple here. Just limit the number of lock box/lobi consoles one can equip to two, or put them all on the global cooldown. This way, it removes the abused click-to-save-your-rear ability.
For ships that have their own console that can only be used with that class of ship. They get three. One of them just has to be that ships console. Any other time, they can only equip two.
This has a minimal impact on the overall game play. But it also means the survival skills, or healers and tanks, become a part of the team play as well. It also doesn't change the current pack style of play.
> While the idea sounds great in theory I can't see it ever happening given:
>
> a) The complaints from the glass cannon brigade would be on a par with some of the past "balance" passes that have reduced effectiveness of various pieces of equipment.
> b) Many missions are so dps orientated that removing a respawn will have no affect because all the NPC's are dead before they do any real damage and thus place any need on a healer.
> c) Because of the way the NPC's are built and their weapons set up, there are a good deal of times when a player dies because the NPC fires a weapon that near enough one shots them (Borg Invisible Torps of days gone by in ISA or Terran Torpedo spreads for example), no healer is going to be any use in saving players from those.
>
> Something like having to have another player resurrect/render emergency repairs might be a bit more likely to work, but with PUGs in this game if it will I'm not sure.
100% agree. Especially with (c). I was vaporized last night with 104000 Damage and was left wondering WTF?
Having several lock box/lobi consoles, I'm not sure what you're talking about here. If I want to point to "click to save your rear" abilities I'd go with the Kobali or Lukari event ship consoles. Deny my ability to eject warp cores (KT connie), fire extra micro torpedos (NX), or whatever the Oleen escort console does (experimented briefly, didn't adopt
Lobi/Lock box consoles aren't what allows players to operate without tanks and healers. It's how STO allows you to mix some TAC/ENG/SCI abilities on every ship. You can always have significant self-healing, it's part of the core design of the game.
It's fundamentally does. If a pack element requires a specialists to optimally survive then you don't have a pack. You have a team with specifically defined roles, ex. healer and tanks (these are words you just used! Beware of cognitive dissonance!
STO does not need to go down this route. It's well traveled and it's a faulty presumption that's pointing the way down in the first place. Ie. that STO has a problem that needs to be fixed. What it has is a style of gameplay. That can be made better, naturally, and there's productive conversations to be had as to how.
But striving for class-based gameplay would be a mistake for STO. It's built form the ground up to not follow that classic MMO scheme. Ways to improve teamplay (however it exists in STO) should therefore follow along with aspects that STO already emphasizes (ex. more generalized team buffs and strategic benefits for coordinating on targets, which can also include elements outside the player such as objective design and NPC powers.)
I think that could be a very interesting discussion, hence why I'm trying to suggest it as an evolution of the topic (does Cryptic need to mess with player powers first and foremost [in another great rebalance] or should it focus more on developing objectives and NPCs?)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
While you may have interesting points about how an ideal PVE queue would work, this idea would kill PUGs.
Your arguments presuppose that everyone is playing in well thought out teams and shares you're philosophical views about an ideal way to enjoy a video game.
Sure, it would be great to have a nice balance of Tacs, Engineers, and Sci, but why force this down peoples throats? Some people aren't students of the game and could not care less about how different careers are supposed to configure their ships and play the game.
I don't have stats to back it up, but I imagine there are many times more PUGs than pre-built teams. Why punish people for being casual in their gameplay?
I'm using the terms loosely. For STO, tanks and healers, would be more crowd control and support. Which falls in the genre of tank and healer.
Threat generation for STO might as well not be a thing. I'll use Starbase Blockade and Dranuur Gauntlet here. In both of these maps, your threat generation doesn't pull "threat" until they have destroyed the primary target. In case of SB Blockade, you can pull threat, if the ships are CC'd and the freighter gets far enough away. But in SB Blockade, you also have to be able to heal, or provide support to the freighter, so it can get away. In Dranuur Gauntlet, you can't even heal the satellites, I've tried this one. You can use the skills for it on them, they just have no effect.
So there are a lot of ways to use the tank and healer, or CC and Support setups for STO. It's that they're mostly useless to start with. The main thing in Gauntlet that annoys me is that enemy basically spawns in right on top of the satellite. You can pull threat here, but you have very little time in which to do it.
We have the mechanics for all this in game already. It's just that they're vastly underutilized.
The one that's entertained me a few times recently has been blowing up, and then the damage report is something like "no significant damage". Uh, what?
Oh I hate that...
"What killed me computer?"
"A scratch."
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
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I'm in favor of removing the respawn option as well, but I'd also add in "Resurrection" abilities, and in the event that the whole team died I would then allow all of them to respawn but with whatever phase they're on resetting to it's beginning.
You know, kinda like how in WoW if the group wipes on a boss the encounter resets and everyone runs back for another attempt. Being able to Zerg through certain queues in STO is a bad thing imho, almost as bad as fail conditions.
I totally fail to understand how removing PVE respawn would remove the DPS-centric meta builds. Everyone will focus on zapping everything, like never before. And the level of frustration will be highest on the lower tier or less competitive DPS-ers (casuals, normal people, not elitists) and that would lead to a server population that's being lowered constantly. And no new people since this is way too punishing for them.
You want to have more support/healers required? Requires skilltree for ground being tweaked and having certain NPC's dealing not larger chunks of damage, but smaller and more frequent chunks of damage which both makes healers more useful and creates the situation of a more intense fight.
Right now if you have a lot of DPS but no survivability, you can get through some queues by killing a few enemies until you die, respawn, rinse and repeat until everything's dead. When there's potentially infinite of you, and a finite number of enemies, victory is just a matter of time, which is poor design IMHO.
it would be more counter-productive than good in the long run.
I also remember someone else asking this question years ago and the answer was more or the less the same, it wasn't very well liked as an idea to remove the respawn from STF PvE content.
Who will revive you when everyone is dead and what happens if you are right at the end of an STF and it has to be reset simply because the respawn ability has been taken away, it would mean going back and doing the STF again with no gaurantees it will be any different the next time.
Also what about accidents, simple things or embarassing things? such as being very slightly out of place for an enemy to target you and knock you off a surface to insta-death below? or just misjudging a jump between surfaces? not everyone can manage certain things others can take for granted.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
When taking Lady Luck into account, OP this is not a good idea.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Hardcore Elite is the best option for this idea. The rest of the queues should be left alone and improved on as they are.
I would imagine a hardcore elite difficulty should be overpowered against the group of dps players, by forcing them to look after each other in a brutal mission of survival where the error of margin is nothing. Planning, teamwork and abilities should be streched slightly beyond what a player can manage, there will be no respawns and it's either do or die.
For something like that, i could see the reason for not having the respawn as only most brave, crazy team are willing to journey into that rancor den to try claim massive glory. it should never be nerfed, it should always remain very much against the player for it to be a real challenge to the top tier dps players.
naturally the rewards should be better than the standard x3, but a few special rewards like a special costume and a title and maybe a weapon, something that shows that if anyone can make it through, they deserve all the respect for doing it and earning these rewards.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
I personally quite like the ground-combat's downed mechanic, and think that using it in a modified form in space I think would be fun, even if it is in only certain stfs/battle-zones till the mechanic is fleshed out enough to roll out more. Like that once you fall to zero hull-points your ship is disabled only able to use hull-heals on themselves till they hit full hull-points,as well as the other players being able to heal you as well, but if your hull-points are not able to be returned to full before a certain period of time elapses your ship explodes an you can respawn normally. I could also see this making having a player/s that are more tanking or healing focused being equally valuable, if the enemies are ccoded to target the downed ship allowing either of these to use their focus to help the downed ship (a healer able to full-heal them faster, or a tank to keep enemies off them better).
Now though I would say that you would need the first option of having dps caps applied to stfs to make it that dps can't trivialize the content being done, thus making the other playstyles are seen as viable, but also that learning the mechanics is needed as you can't trivialize them thru dps output. While also making it that specs, ships, and other such things that have a more survival or non-dps focus feel have an actual use/place in the content. Hell some players might actually find learning the mechanics is both easier, and needed with such a change actually too. It would also make it that dps is not the best method of healing, or tanking via killing the target before it is a danger, and so after such a change those other two methods (tanking, healing) would serve the purpose that they are implemented for.
The queues are dead for two reasons.
1) After T5 rep there is no need to do them.
2) 90% of them are easy and boring. As are the episodes.
Most everyone these days, logs in to do their doffing, admiralty, dilithium refinement and maybe the occasional bit fleet mark farming.
Outside of this, there is nothing that inspires one to actually play the game. There's no challenge. There's no engaging content. There's no meat, no potatoes and no bread, just an empty plate. Since its all become pew and collect.
This is the game the DPS crew whined and complained to get. Now, we're all suffering under the repercussions of Cryptic giving it to them. The game was far better before the Fleet and Reputation systems, and before it became the DPS race that it is.
CCA is the perfect example of this. What use to be the hardest event we had, a 20 man Fleet Action, is now nothing more than a 10 man, 2 minute target practice. It's a straight up insult to what it use to be.
Which makes the problem very obvious. When you make the game easy and boring, of course less people are going to play. They'll seek out a more challenging game.
No thanks. STO is a casual-friendly mostly single-player MMO with a bit of grouping for variety. Thankfully there is no chance that the developers will listen to the idea of forcing players to group as tank-dps-healer just because you like WoW.
There was a game that had this feature. Due to lack of content it was shut down. It was called Wizardry Online.
A change like this would do nothing to encourage or force a trinity grouping style, that would require actual boss fight mechanics which is something Cryptic has proven themselves incapable of. The variation I posted above would however encourage teamwork, turn fail conditions into try again conditions, and remove the ability to cheese encounters by respawning endlessly until the target dies.
How about no? The servers would be dead in a week. I'm sorry, but there's a limit to how much realism I actually want in my gameplay, and having to redo potentially years worth of work because one slip up does not appeal to me--or, I think, to--speaking conservatively--ninety-five percent of STO's playerbase.
Of course, if you're trying to kill the game, that would be an excellent way to go about it.
The perma-death does work that way. But, that's if it's implemented in the "on death" manner. The perma-death from Wizardry was a bit different. It was on a timer. When you died, if no one is around to resurrect you, then you "respawn" as a ghost at the last shrine you were at. Then you have like 15 minutes to return to your corpse. IF you didn't make it to you corpse in time, then the perma-death happened.
With this setup it discourages afking and botting. I think the main thing that killed the idea here was, you lost all the the items on your character when it happened. This included any cash shop items. Had they set it to return the cash shop items upon perma-death, it would have likely went over much better.
But I will admit, the perma-death system isn't for everyone. Because it's a constant reminder that you're playing a game, and not something important. Which people forget, STO is nothing important, it's just a game after all. This is true of any game.
When a game becomes something important to you and ceases to be just a game. Then it might be time to re-evaluate your life.