"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
It would stop a certain class of players from investing time and money into the game, but it's not a big loss as far as I'm concerned.
Dismissive, Elistist BS. Anyone who wants to play this game, ANYONE, should be able to do so without being a Leet Player or having Deep Pockets. Just remember, you were once also a n00b... You weren't always King of the Hill, and any new player, subscribing or F2P, deserves the same opportunity that you had, to enjoy the game as They want, in as casual manner as they want.
Perma-death could work on both a storyline level AND as a great mechanism to weed out some of the playerbase and restructure the game. High-end items would be account bound, but you would probably lose a lot of your low/mid tier items.
First off, the playerbase does't need 'weeding out' in the way you suggest, although there are a lot of trolls and gankers who deserve permabans from both game and forum. Secondly, define 'high-end'. Do I lose my KT Constitution if it gets blown up in a pug run gone bad? Or the Aegis set I bought direct off the exchange for cash to Zen to EC? Because SpaceRich don't consider it 'high-end' enough? Eff that. As I said: No incentive to risk worthwhile money on purchases which could be lost, and no cash into the game, means no game.
Another possibility would be, if you get killed, to have "ghost ships" appear where you died. Your new captain could investigate with an away team and salvage what was left behind as a way of re-couping lost items. This option is only available for 24 hours.
That would actually be acceptable, IF ALL items on the ship can be salvaged and then banked till the character levels up to be able to use them again. Again, there HAS to be incentives for people to invest money into the game for it to continue to exist. Permadeath HaHaLoseItAll, does not provide that incentive, and would act as a deterrent.
There are times I agree with you, like when you pointed out last year that the forum needed a moderation team, not just one mod. But 'ideas' like this? No. It would be gamebreaking and a deterrent to new players, so more harmful than any possible positives which would come from it.
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Lets be 100% honest here, STO is not built with perma death or even near perma death in mind. The few fights in STO that need more tactics then "shoot at it really hard" use the "die, learn and adapt, try again" formula WoW or Dark Souls uses, you're not expected to ace the fight on your first try.
That's btw why Dark Souls doesn't have perma death dispite being considered one of the hardest modern games in existance, you're suppose to die on your first try and use the things you learned there on your next attempt.
A poorly implimented Perma death doesn't make the game more difficult but rather more frustrating as you're at mercy of the random number generator and could loose all your progress due to no fault of your own. that's what would happen if you added perma into STO without rebuilding the game from the ground up to work with perma death.
Important thing to remember here is that well done difficult game makes you feel "If I would done just a bit better I would made it", a poorly made "difficulty" makes you feel "that's (censored), how was I suppose to avoid that fail state?!"
Your claim that permadeath will kill the game is untrue just as every single thing that people have claimed would kill the game over the last 7 years has been untrue. "F2P will kill the game" "the rep system will kill the game" "Delta Rising will kill the game" etc, etc, every single one was wrong, this is no different.
This is Very different, because it has the potential to create a game where people are unwilling to spend money on it. Without people spending actual cashmoney on it, not just grinding everything, then Cryptic (if they have any business smarts) will see that it's not bringing in money, so they'll reassign the devs to other games which DO bring the, in money, and stick it in maintenance mode, or outright take it offline.
Straight Question: Is that a situation you are willing to risk? Yes or No.
Now I personally do not like permadeath in games but a number of popular games do use such a system so clearly people can handle it. I don't play EVE because you permanently lose destroyed ships, but lots of other people love it. Just because you don't like it has no impact on the gaming world.
Wether other people 'like it or not' is not the point. So you don't play EVE, because you permanently lose a blown up ship. Okay, would you play STO if you permantly lost everything upon being destroyed or incapacitated? I'm going to guess not. Would you pay cash money into buying Zen to buy the nice stuff, if there was even the slightest possibility that you could Completely Lose Everything, upon being destroyed or incapacitiated? Again, I'm going to guess 'no'.
The 'loot the ghostship' idea would be acceptable*, but it would have to allow All Items to be reclaimed, not just lobi or lockbox goods, for me to consider it an acceptable and viable option.
*And by 'acceptable', I mean as in 'a more reasonable proposal than the idea of Permadeath HahaYouLoseEverything', Not that I consider it an acceptable idea which I actually want to see implemented or even Considered for implementation. Like I said, I pay my way, I buy stuff, and I buy what I want, because I know I'll get ongoing enjoyment and entertainment from it. I'm not going to spend a penny on anything in a game, which could be lost by being defeated. I'm not a bad player. By no means Elite, but not Bad, but I wouldn't be willing to run the risk of losing hard-earned items, because of a permadeath situation, and that would mean my wallet closes and stays closed.
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
People are barely running queues anymore as it is because of the UI.
Look, I get it, you think the queues being dead is 'fine', but why settle for just 'fine' when things can be changed for the better?
Did I say that I think the queues being dead is fine? I did not. No, the queues being dead is Not fine, by any stretch of the imagination, and I mentioned it as a symptom of how poor decisions on the part of the devs are driving away players.
I'm sorry if I chose my words poorly. When I say 'the game is fine as it is', yes, of course there are issues which need to be addressed, but introducing a permadeath is not one of them, and the way in which the game currently deals with getting blown up/incapacitated/respawning, that is fine as it is, and doesn't need altering in any way. As others have mentioned upthread, this is a game where losing, teaches the player to improve so they can do better.
Having a permadeath introduced would not change anything for the better, or than driving away people who potentially spend money, which means that there is a game for everyone to play. Change for the sake of change, is not 'improvement'.
What's the last expensive item you purchased in game? How would you like it, if you lost that, and everything else you've accrued while playing, just because you get blown up?
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
I'd like to point back to Delta Rising and the NPC hull and shield rise but more importantly the instant fails that were introduced.
It didn't go down very well.
Pugging was a no go as you couldn't even complete the mission like now with a rewards reduction penalty if an optional failed.
It was win or bust. Which is fine for Elite content as there has to be a challenge instead of the lazy more shields and hull approach we get with this game.
Perma Death isn't the answer thou, it will drive players away not bring them in. PvE is already in a poor state with the S13 rebalance and poor UI. This would not flesh out the strong from the weak as suggested it would result in game over, servers a closed.
I'd consider myself a dedicated player as only through computer issues and a few days away from home, I've logged in every day and played through 99% of the PvE list.
I've been playing since late 2010/early 2011 and the possibility of losing everything from one of my vintage toons or any toon for that matter would stop me playing in a heart beat. 25 characters I've invested in all have lobi purchases, lock box gear ect.
Why would I invest in a product if that investment could be taken away by other players ?. Or a cheating AI that uses overpowered abilities and a broken aggro system that doesn't always target the guy with highest threat generation.
Perhaps rather than removing respawn increase the time you are unable to get back in the fight. Like it does if you die x amount times within x time frame making dying a bigger penalty to you and the team than it is now.
A respawn time increase with each death would work much better
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
I'd like to point back to Delta Rising and the NPC hull and shield rise but more importantly the instant fails that were introduced.
It didn't go down very well.
Pugging was a no go as you couldn't even complete the mission like now with a rewards reduction penalty if an optional failed.
It was win or bust. Which is fine for Elite content as there has to be a challenge instead of the lazy more shields and hull approach we get with this game.
Perma Death isn't the answer thou, it will drive players away not bring them in. PvE is already in a poor state with the S13 rebalance and poor UI. This would not flesh out the strong from the weak as suggested it would result in game over, servers a closed.
I'd consider myself a dedicated player as only through computer issues and a few days away from home, I've logged in every day and played through 99% of the PvE list.
I've been playing since late 2010/early 2011 and the possibility of losing everything from one of my vintage toons or any toon for that matter would stop me playing in a heart beat. 25 characters I've invested in all have lobi purchases, lock box gear ect.
Why would I invest in a product if that investment could be taken away by other players ?. Or a cheating AI that uses overpowered abilities and a broken aggro system that doesn't always target the guy with highest threat generation.
Perhaps rather than removing respawn increase the time you are unable to get back in the fight. Like it does at present if you die x amount times within x time frame. make dying a bigger penalty to you and the team than it is now.
Hello rubber banding my old friend, time to bounce around the battlezone again, where are all my bug reports going?, out of love with this game I am falling, As Cryptic fail to acknowledge a problem exists, Shakes an angry fist, And from Support all I'm hearing are the sounds of silence.
a) The complaints from the glass cannon brigade would be on a par with some of the past "balance" passes that have reduced effectiveness of various pieces of equipment.
Whoe cares? They'll complain no matter what Cryptic does.
b) Many missions are so dps orientated that removing a respawn will have no affect because all the NPC's are dead before they do any real damage and thus place any need on a healer.
The DPS focus is why they are dead. It makes them entirely to boring.
c) Because of the way the NPC's are built and their weapons set up, there are a good deal of times when a player dies because the NPC fires a weapon that near enough one shots them (Borg Invisible Torps of days gone by in ISA or Terran Torpedo spreads for example), no healer is going to be any use in saving players from those.
This would place the ability to survive on the player as well. If you build a glass cannon, it's your fault for dying. Survival should always be a part of a build. This should be enforced with every part of the game, including episodes. If you can't survive you can't win.
The one shots from the old ISE and Terran torps aren't a mechanic. They're a bug. But the randomness of them happening also added to the challenge of the the old Borg Elites.
Something like having to have another player resurrect/render emergency repairs might be a bit more likely to work, but with PUGs in this game if it will I'm not sure.
I like the render emergency repairs part, though we have this for ground already. As you don't die in STO, you are rendered unconscious. As far as what happens in PUGs. Well, Starbase Blockade is a good indicator here. Very few carry the skills and understand the simple mechanic of heal the freighter.
I turned my Fed Sci from back then in to a dil farmer. It use to be a Space/Ground healer, with the setup to tank Aramek. Now there is not much of a call for a healer.
I disagree on your comment that the PVE quques are dead due to DPS. I more realistic reason is there are far to many PVE queques active. Cutting back the number of Active Quesques is a far better solution and I am not talking about retirng any queques but to make a rotation where sat ten different PVE queques are available at any given time say a week or Maintence cycle to cycle and would refresh with ten different queques for the next cycle and so on. This way the choices would be smaller at any givne time so people if they want the XP's or tokens from the queques they would need to do queques they eithe rpassed on or could not get a pug going for them due to the huge number of choices we have now.
To the OP yes lets talk about this... A new player with low tier ship or gear trying to learn and earn the tokens gets fried and misses out on XP and other rewards because of your lets lock folks out from respawning because they died. that fair right? What a great way to keep a new player interested in the gme by slpping them with a double whammy a respawn lockout and a AFK lockout on top of it sounds fair doesn't it? After all everyone should have epic 14 and indestructable ships from day one right and if they don't well F them in your book right?
Comments
I personally think this topic is pointless and that being debuffed temporarily with injuries is enough, in track with the game design.
Luckily, not every suggestion makes sense to the real stakeholders.
Oh I thought that that was the purpose of this thread. To make pointless suggestions
A contest to present the most game breaking ideas.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Gonna have to disagree with you there, breeks.
Myst punished inattentive players with a game over, and getting the good ending required a significant amount of lateral thinking.
First off, the playerbase does't need 'weeding out' in the way you suggest, although there are a lot of trolls and gankers who deserve permabans from both game and forum. Secondly, define 'high-end'. Do I lose my KT Constitution if it gets blown up in a pug run gone bad? Or the Aegis set I bought direct off the exchange for cash to Zen to EC? Because SpaceRich don't consider it 'high-end' enough? Eff that. As I said: No incentive to risk worthwhile money on purchases which could be lost, and no cash into the game, means no game.
That would actually be acceptable, IF ALL items on the ship can be salvaged and then banked till the character levels up to be able to use them again. Again, there HAS to be incentives for people to invest money into the game for it to continue to exist. Permadeath HaHaLoseItAll, does not provide that incentive, and would act as a deterrent.
There are times I agree with you, like when you pointed out last year that the forum needed a moderation team, not just one mod. But 'ideas' like this? No. It would be gamebreaking and a deterrent to new players, so more harmful than any possible positives which would come from it.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
That's btw why Dark Souls doesn't have perma death dispite being considered one of the hardest modern games in existance, you're suppose to die on your first try and use the things you learned there on your next attempt.
A poorly implimented Perma death doesn't make the game more difficult but rather more frustrating as you're at mercy of the random number generator and could loose all your progress due to no fault of your own. that's what would happen if you added perma into STO without rebuilding the game from the ground up to work with perma death.
Important thing to remember here is that well done difficult game makes you feel "If I would done just a bit better I would made it", a poorly made "difficulty" makes you feel "that's (censored), how was I suppose to avoid that fail state?!"
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
This is Very different, because it has the potential to create a game where people are unwilling to spend money on it. Without people spending actual cashmoney on it, not just grinding everything, then Cryptic (if they have any business smarts) will see that it's not bringing in money, so they'll reassign the devs to other games which DO bring the, in money, and stick it in maintenance mode, or outright take it offline.
Straight Question: Is that a situation you are willing to risk? Yes or No.
Wether other people 'like it or not' is not the point. So you don't play EVE, because you permanently lose a blown up ship. Okay, would you play STO if you permantly lost everything upon being destroyed or incapacitated? I'm going to guess not. Would you pay cash money into buying Zen to buy the nice stuff, if there was even the slightest possibility that you could Completely Lose Everything, upon being destroyed or incapacitiated? Again, I'm going to guess 'no'.
The 'loot the ghostship' idea would be acceptable*, but it would have to allow All Items to be reclaimed, not just lobi or lockbox goods, for me to consider it an acceptable and viable option.
*And by 'acceptable', I mean as in 'a more reasonable proposal than the idea of Permadeath HahaYouLoseEverything', Not that I consider it an acceptable idea which I actually want to see implemented or even Considered for implementation. Like I said, I pay my way, I buy stuff, and I buy what I want, because I know I'll get ongoing enjoyment and entertainment from it. I'm not going to spend a penny on anything in a game, which could be lost by being defeated. I'm not a bad player. By no means Elite, but not Bad, but I wouldn't be willing to run the risk of losing hard-earned items, because of a permadeath situation, and that would mean my wallet closes and stays closed.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Look, I get it, you think the queues being dead is 'fine', but why settle for just 'fine' when things can be changed for the better?
I'm sorry if I chose my words poorly. When I say 'the game is fine as it is', yes, of course there are issues which need to be addressed, but introducing a permadeath is not one of them, and the way in which the game currently deals with getting blown up/incapacitated/respawning, that is fine as it is, and doesn't need altering in any way. As others have mentioned upthread, this is a game where losing, teaches the player to improve so they can do better.
Having a permadeath introduced would not change anything for the better, or than driving away people who potentially spend money, which means that there is a game for everyone to play. Change for the sake of change, is not 'improvement'.
What's the last expensive item you purchased in game? How would you like it, if you lost that, and everything else you've accrued while playing, just because you get blown up?
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
A respawn time increase with each death would work much better
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
I'd like to point back to Delta Rising and the NPC hull and shield rise but more importantly the instant fails that were introduced.
It didn't go down very well.
Pugging was a no go as you couldn't even complete the mission like now with a rewards reduction penalty if an optional failed.
It was win or bust. Which is fine for Elite content as there has to be a challenge instead of the lazy more shields and hull approach we get with this game.
Perma Death isn't the answer thou, it will drive players away not bring them in. PvE is already in a poor state with the S13 rebalance and poor UI. This would not flesh out the strong from the weak as suggested it would result in game over, servers a closed.
I'd consider myself a dedicated player as only through computer issues and a few days away from home, I've logged in every day and played through 99% of the PvE list.
I've been playing since late 2010/early 2011 and the possibility of losing everything from one of my vintage toons or any toon for that matter would stop me playing in a heart beat. 25 characters I've invested in all have lobi purchases, lock box gear ect.
Why would I invest in a product if that investment could be taken away by other players ?. Or a cheating AI that uses overpowered abilities and a broken aggro system that doesn't always target the guy with highest threat generation.
Perhaps rather than removing respawn increase the time you are unable to get back in the fight. Like it does at present if you die x amount times within x time frame. make dying a bigger penalty to you and the team than it is now.
Hello rubber banding my old friend, time to bounce around the battlezone again, where are all my bug reports going?, out of love with this game I am falling, As Cryptic fail to acknowledge a problem exists, Shakes an angry fist, And from Support all I'm hearing are the sounds of silence.
I disagree on your comment that the PVE quques are dead due to DPS. I more realistic reason is there are far to many PVE queques active. Cutting back the number of Active Quesques is a far better solution and I am not talking about retirng any queques but to make a rotation where sat ten different PVE queques are available at any given time say a week or Maintence cycle to cycle and would refresh with ten different queques for the next cycle and so on. This way the choices would be smaller at any givne time so people if they want the XP's or tokens from the queques they would need to do queques they eithe rpassed on or could not get a pug going for them due to the huge number of choices we have now.