That's nonsense and you know it. Spock, Data and Seven had clear weaknesses and they weren't always right. They made mistakes that had to be corrected by other crew members. Burnham didn't.
That's funny - so many people here have gone to great lengths to prove how Burnham made a mistake in the very first episode of the show; which she clearly did. She allowed her past experience to cloud her judgment and made a bad call. Doesn't that count?
No. Because she was proven to have been right after all. If she hadn't incapacitated Captain Georgiou, the war still would have happened exactly as pictured. You might remember that it was Georgiou's "we come in peace" that ultimately united the Klingon houses and started the battle at the binary stars. If Burnham's mutiny had succeeded and the Shenzhou had attacked the sarcophagus ship, the other Klingon houses might have seen that as a show of strenght by the Federation. Thus Starfleet would not have been perceived as weak and the houses would not have joined forces.
That's nonsense and you know it. Spock, Data and Seven had clear weaknesses and they weren't always right. They made mistakes that had to be corrected by other crew members. Burnham didn't.
That's funny - so many people here have gone to great lengths to prove how Burnham made a mistake in the very first episode of the show; which she clearly did. She allowed her past experience to cloud her judgment and made a bad call. Doesn't that count?
No. Because she was proven to have been right after all. If she hadn't incapacitated Captain Georgiou, the war still would have happened exactly as pictured.
Which means she wasn't right. She didn't even understand the real problem, she didn't really get what T'Kuvma was after and for what purposes, and in her failure to understand (which is probably an acceptable mistake for any Starfleet officer under the circumstances), she also picked a particularly bad solution, that she then even failed to implement because she miscalculated her fellow shipmates and Georgiou's ability to recover.
Anyway, we're already in Season 2, new stuff is happening. And it's interesting stuff, told well. I look forward to the next episode.
---
I wonder if there is a connection between New Eden and Calypso.
In Calypso we learn that the main character's (Craft, played by the wonderful Aldis Hodge) people are in a conflict with what might be the 3xth century Federation, and that he comes from a planet colonized by humans that was not colonized already at least in the 23rd century (maybe even much later)
What if his people are actually descendants of the planet from New Eden? They might have grown over the next centuries (now endowed with a long-lasting power cell, they might be able to jump-start their technological development). These people have little reason to feel any nostalgia about old Earth. They have barely anything left from Earth, and for a long time, they assumed Earth was destroyed. Unlike Earth, that managed to rise from the ashes of WW3 into a new, prosperous future, they were rescued by basically a miracle, so they probably have good reason to assume that old Earth was just not the way to go, and develop a new way of life and advancement. Maybe, centuries later they build their own colonies and expand, eventually towards the borders of the Federation, and eventually, the ideological conflict between the Federation's way and "Eden"s way leads to a military conflict?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Spock: over a hundred years old-he had TIME to master all of those fields.
Data: a robot-He could be programmed with all of those skills.
Seven of Nine: Cheesecake. (also cybernetically enhanced) She had stored files, skill files, and the composite experience of the collective (in a slightly reduced form) to draw on, along with physical enhancements.
And Wesley Crusher could - and in a couple of cases did - outsmart them all... and he was a child. What's his excuse?
Wesley Crusher-who should have been an example of an object lesson in why you don't insert a marysue into a show unless you REALLY want your audience to hate them. (based on interviews, the dislike wasn't limited to the audience, either.) he's a perfect example of why doing that is a Bad Idea.
so you're down to trotting out the least-liked aspect of TNG bar none, as an example of why that same problem is wrong to dislike with the new one??
'fess up now, you're Wesley's only fan, right??
of course not...but you're leaning on the worst examples from the prior series as comparison with THE major character in the new series.
I'm not a Wesley fan, but while unrealistically "special" he didn't have an overwhelming arrogant vibe to him (IMO). While he "saved the day" far more than he should have, he seemed to be slightly surprised/amazed it was working. Burnham is Wesley without the charm (and he didn't have much charm, so that's saying a lot).
The writing is all over the place. In the last episode, Burnham could easily lift a piece of the dark matter asteroid. In this episode a tiny fragment managed to crush a metal table under its weight. Last time a tractor beam lock was impossible, this time - no problem at all. Furthermore, pinpointing the exact origin of a signal that originates 51'000 or so light years away is as easy as activating a light switch. Discovery really turns Star Trek into space fantasy where from episode to episode everything is either made up or changed according to what the plot demands.
It's almost like Data and his emotion chip that couldn't be removed until it could... or Spot being a girl until he was a boy... I can't remember when Star Trek ever changed something previously established according to what the plot demanded...
I'm really growing weary of Michael Burnham. She knows everything and she's the best at everything and she dominates every scene she's in.
Indeed. Kind of like Spock, Data and Seven of Nine before ... so rare to see a character who knows everything.
Spock: over a hundred years old-he had TIME to master all of those fields.
Slight issue. Spock was not over a hundred years old in Discovery or TOS. He seems to be about the same age as Burnham in the Season 2 Premiere. According to startrek.com, Spock's mother was born in 2210 so she would have been in her 40s when we see her in Discovery and her 70s in A Voyage Home. So Spock is a know-it-all because he is partially from a race of know-it-alls and raised by them for his younger years while Burnham was only raised by a race of know-it-alls.
I just watched the first episode of the second season. There is so much clutter and noise. Seriously, all those effects. Yes I get it, 60s Trek is dumb and stale and blah but seriously, this isn't the way.
The whole [s]pod racing[/s] asteroid dodging sequene in those [s]pod racers[/s] [s]tie fighters[/s] shuttle capsule things - I have to admit - I didn't get. Why did they have to do that? Does Discovery not have tractor beams or phasers or SHIELDS to shoot/push the debris? Or shuttles? I mean this was the best way to get the transporter enhancers down there? I did not understand the reason for this scene.
The 'gravity trap' thing in the shuttle bay. Not only did it look terrible when they set up the magic nano folding device ( @artan42 it's not just helmets, everything folds into nothing in the future 😜) but again, tractor beams?
The story was okay, overall. Pike is a good fit. And Tilly is still hot, but she crossed the line to annoying, sadly. Too much. They try way too hard to sell her.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Which is why I said they were about the same age. However, we don't know if Vulcan children age as fast as Human children. Vulcans live longer than humans so they might have a longer childhood.
I won't get too much into the arguments, because there is no point.
I will say however, that I honestly feel bad for Trek fans that won't let themselves like Discovery. This show is fantastic and only getting better.
Pick it apart if you want, we can do that with every Star Trek Series ever made. You're just cheating yourself, Discovery is fantastic.
For the first two episodes at least, Season 2 is fantastic, but Season 1 is absolute garbage by comparison with only a few decent episodes. Season 2 might end up being just as bad by comparison, but lets hope they don't TRIBBLE it up.
Memory Alpha lists his birth date as 2230. He was assigned to Enterprise in 2254. So he’d be 24 by The Cage
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
those were all elements linked to iconian influence or involvement through STO, though, not star trek proper...maybe CBS will link them, though - they seem to like the story STO is telling, or they would've made it go another direction long ago
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Memory Alpha lists his birth date as 2230. He was assigned to Enterprise in 2254. So he’d be 24 by The Cage
how old is the edit?
I mean, Memory Alpha is a Wikipedia, and (at least when I was going) wikipedia's not a reliable source by itself-it's subject to change.
2230 is shown in Star Trek Beyond.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
I just watched the first episode of the second season. There is so much clutter and noise. Seriously, all those effects. Yes I get it, 60s Trek is dumb and stale and blah but seriously, this isn't the way.
It's a dramatic series opener to draw people in. It's a almost feature length episode. Some were overused but some er spectacular. When all three are suited up and looking down on the asteroid and the shipwreck it looks spectacular. I can't help but imagine how dull it would have looked even as modern as ENT. Three guys on a soundstage or greenscreen with a Papier-mâché asteroid.
The 'gravity trap' thing in the shuttle bay. Not only did it look terrible when they set up the magic nano folding device ( @artan42 it's not just helmets, everything folds into nothing in the future 😜) but again, tractor beams?
Replicating and assembling the pieces would have been as quick and not looked as stupid as nano-magic.
Season 1 was the best first season in the franchise.
This is correct. Other than a lack of focus on more characters, too much blue tint, and the bloody Mirror Universe, it was coherent, planned, and didn't make me hate a main character (poor S1 Picard).
Memory Alpha lists his birth date as 2230. He was assigned to Enterprise in 2254. So he’d be 24 by The Cage
I don't know where that's from in canon (or just another made up MA thing or it could be from a display like the ENTs crew was in the Mirror Defiant) but a deleted scene from 09 shows him born at the same time as Kirk was on the Kelvin, so his birthdate is 2233 (or 2234 depending on what month the Kelvin was destroyed and accounting for the time it would take to get back to Earth for Kirk to have been born in Iowa without his mother going into early labour due to Nero's attack).
The episode was great though I feel too TNGish. The majority of TNG, TOS film, VGR, and ENT episodes all feel very TNG so it would be nice if DSC didn't also do this. S1 felt like a DS9/TKT hybrid and a mix of DS9/TKT/TOS would be preferable to me and fit better in the era than more TNG. Especially as that hampered ENT from reaching its potential.
I liked it, don't get me wrong, Pike is great, the main theme could have been articulated better at times but the cowardly owners of the forums have decided a major part of Trek is undiscussable so I won't bother.
Burnham is a weak link. I strongly dislike main characters and much prefer ensambles. Seven took over VGR, Kirk had too much focus in TOS, TAS, TOS films, and TKT, Robot the Sidekick ended up as Robot the Star by mid-TNG, but they grew. Kirks story was getting older, Seven and Data were becoming human. I know it's only series 2 (and episode 2 at that) but Burnham has only learnt that mutiny is not all it's cracked up to be.
I have other thoughts I may get into later.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Memory Alpha lists his birth date as 2230. He was assigned to Enterprise in 2254. So he’d be 24 by The Cage
how old is the edit?
I mean, Memory Alpha is a Wikipedia, and (at least when I was going) wikipedia's not a reliable source by itself-it's subject to change.
2230 is shown in Star Trek Beyond.
which is an alternate timeline, iirc, in which several things happened differently?
It doesn't diverge until 2233. Everything before that is exactly as it will has been.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Season 1 was the best first season in the franchise.
Glad someone has the guts to say it.
Absolutely true.
I don't think it takes any amount of bravery to make a statement you believe to be true on a video game message board with anonymous account handles. We're people talking abut a TV show, and neither side has any kind of moral superiority.
Memory Alpha lists his birth date as 2230. He was assigned to Enterprise in 2254. So he’d be 24 by The Cage
how old is the edit?
I mean, Memory Alpha is a Wikipedia, and (at least when I was going) wikipedia's not a reliable source by itself-it's subject to change.
2230 is shown in Star Trek Beyond.
which is an alternate timeline, iirc, in which several things happened differently?
It doesn't diverge until 2233. Everything before that is exactly as it will has been.
huh, except a whole lot of divergence is seen between them BEFORE 2233. In the original timeline for example, the first Romulan war was fought with nuclear weapons and video comms weren't available... iirc, the same sources that confirmed it was an alternate timeline set the change prior to the Kelvin incident due to timey-wimey shennanigans.
hell, the statement that it diverges at 2233 is just about as non-canon.
But hey, it's Star Trek, where speeds are set at the speed of plot, hte warp-scale is incoherent, and Starfleet is either the United Earth Space Probe Agency ("The Cage", "Where No man has gone before") or the United Federation of Planets Starfleet, they either have 12 starships, or hundreds, (within the same timeframe) and so on.
All conflicting, all said on screen, and therefore, all canon (to an extent, or until the current owners change it.)
It's flat out stated by Spock the divergence happens due to the destruction of the Kelvin and Robus dialogue tells us the date was 2233. That's as canon as you can get.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Memory Alpha lists his birth date as 2230. He was assigned to Enterprise in 2254. So he’d be 24 by The Cage
how old is the edit?
I mean, Memory Alpha is a Wikipedia, and (at least when I was going) wikipedia's not a reliable source by itself-it's subject to change.
2230 is shown in Star Trek Beyond.
which is an alternate timeline, iirc, in which several things happened differently?
It doesn't diverge until 2233. Everything before that is exactly as it will has been.
huh, except a whole lot of divergence is seen between them BEFORE 2233. In the original timeline for example, the first Romulan war was fought with nuclear weapons and video comms weren't available... iirc, the same sources that confirmed it was an alternate timeline set the change prior to the Kelvin incident due to timey-wimey shennanigans.
hell, the statement that it diverges at 2233 is just about as non-canon.
But hey, it's Star Trek, where speeds are set at the speed of plot, hte warp-scale is incoherent, and Starfleet is either the United Earth Space Probe Agency ("The Cage", "Where No man has gone before") or the United Federation of Planets Starfleet, they either have 12 starships, or hundreds, (within the same timeframe) and so on.
All conflicting, all said on screen, and therefore, all canon (to an extent, or until the current owners change it.)
It's flat out stated by Spock the divergence happens due to the destruction of the Kelvin and Robus dialogue tells us the date was 2233. That's as canon as you can get.
and how does this relate to Discovery again??
it doesn't matter when Spock was born before CBS decided it to be 2230. That is now the canon, along with M.Burnham being the bestest-evahr with predestination and being the girl who created teh milky-way with ashes one hundred thousand years ago.
the Canon changes at the whim of the IP owner, that is how it is. Whatever it was, it doesn't have to be, because it's all only as canon as the owners say it is (or isn't).
Uum, I think you're trying to have a different conversation and with somebody else.
I have no idea when Spock was born and if DSC mentions it, I said that a deleted scene from 09 had him born in 2233.
Though the rest of your post is more of the same from you, so meh.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
The year 2230 is shown on Prime Spock’s obituary. That date was pulled from the Okudas chronology book published back in 96.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
The year 2230 is shown on Prime Spock’s obituary. That date was pulled from the Okudas chronology book published back in 96.
Thank you. That overrules a deleted scene.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
So this is interesting, if of questionable veracity (let me reiterate, it's a "friend of a friend" thing and I cannot verify it). A forum member on TrekBBS claiming to be a friend of a member of the production crew has an alternate explanation for Gretchen Berg and Aaron Harberts being removed from DSC. They said that they were planning to take the "red angel" storyline further into the realm of the supernatural and discussion of religion than even DS9 took the Prophets and Pah-Wraiths, but Kurtzman and CBS vetoed it. I'll update this post with a link if I can get it.
Quoth the friend who told me about this after reading it on AlternateHistory.com, "They planned on Pike becoming fully "born again," for example, and were going to explicitly add supernatural elements to Trek canon (well, more explicit than the Prophets/Pah-Wraiths anyway). This may be walked back by Kurtzman later in the season somewhat, so as not to trigger incredible bouts of fan rage.
"Certainly the episode last night seemed to plant the seeds. Pike's father is established as having taught comparative religion. He's open to the possibility that the New Eden colonists' religion may be true, at least in a sense. He's clearly there as a foil to Burnham, who comes down on the side of rational materialism. Despite Burnham having seen the Red Angel, she remains convinced that it's just some sort of advanced alien being.
"Oh, and Tilly starts seeing a childhood acquaintance who is dead."
those were all elements linked to iconian influence or involvement through STO, though, not star trek proper...maybe CBS will link them, though - they seem to like the story STO is telling, or they would've made it go another direction long ago
In point of fact, Kael mentioned that CBS asked to borrow Cryptic's notes around the time the Picard show was announced. I'll try to find a citation.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
They said that they were planning to take the "red angel" storyline further into the realm of the supernatural and discussion of religion than even DS9 took the Prophets and Pah-Wraiths, but Kurtzman and CBS vetoed it. I'll update this post with a link if I can get it.
Yeah, no. If it exists it's by definition natural. Just because it can do magic doesn't make it not natural. Things like the Prophets simply see out of time. Vulcan and Ocampan mind powers are psionic energy. The existence of the Red Angels would make them just an existing entity. The supernatural is something that can't exist because it is incongruent with how reality functions. As 'magic' is part of how the universe of Trek works, the entities that use said 'magic' clearly aren't supernatural anymore than Birds are supernatural for using magnets.
"Certainly the episode last night seemed to plant the seeds. Pike's father is established as having taught comparative religion. He's open to the possibility that the New Eden colonists' religion may be true, at least in a sense. He's clearly there as a foil to Burnham, who comes down on the side of rational materialism. Despite Burnham having seen the Red Angel, she remains convinced that it's just some sort of advanced alien being.
The New Eden religion medley being true and the Red Angels being advanced aliens are the same conclusion. Burnham just sees no reason to use fantastical words to describe something who's only hard fact is their existence. Pike seems to be taking the position that, if they exist that is suddenly proof of any and all claims made about them. The old 'New York exists, ergo Spider-Man exists' argument.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Memory Alpha lists his birth date as 2230. He was assigned to Enterprise in 2254. So he’d be 24 by The Cage
how old is the edit?
I mean, Memory Alpha is a Wikipedia, and (at least when I was going) wikipedia's not a reliable source by itself-it's subject to change.
2230 is shown in Star Trek Beyond.
which is an alternate timeline, iirc, in which several things happened differently?
It doesn't diverge until 2233. Everything before that is exactly as it will has been.
huh, except a whole lot of divergence is seen between them BEFORE 2233. In the original timeline for example, the first Romulan war was fought with nuclear weapons and video comms weren't available... iirc, the same sources that confirmed it was an alternate timeline set the change prior to the Kelvin incident due to timey-wimey shennanigans.
hell, the statement that it diverges at 2233 is just about as non-canon.
But hey, it's Star Trek, where speeds are set at the speed of plot, hte warp-scale is incoherent, and Starfleet is either the United Earth Space Probe Agency ("The Cage", "Where No man has gone before") or the United Federation of Planets Starfleet, they either have 12 starships, or hundreds, (within the same timeframe) and so on.
All conflicting, all said on screen, and therefore, all canon (to an extent, or until the current owners change it.)
It's flat out stated by Spock the divergence happens due to the destruction of the Kelvin and Robus dialogue tells us the date was 2233. That's as canon as you can get.
We simply don't know where old Spock and Nero ended up. They could have gone back in time to the 23rd Century or they could have gone to a parallel universe that looks like the 23rd Century. From Young Spock's perspective, Nero is from the future and he is right that Nero's actions would have caused the future to diverge from its intended course, but there is no evidence that old Spock and Nero came from Young Spock's future. The only evidence that we have about what the Kelvin Timeline is from STO's Terminal Expanse mission which is obviously non-canon and states that it is a parallel universe. So the Kelvin-STO Timeline is a parallel universe, but we don't know what the Kelvin-Movie Timeline is.
Any evidence that the Kelvin Timeline is a branching timeline or parallel universe, would have to come from someone like Daniels or Q or scan for their quantum signature or chronitons. In Star Trek, a different quantum signature means that a person is from a parallel universe while chronitons means that they are from the past or future. Since there is no mention of quantum signatures or chronitons in Star Trek 2009, then we don't know if the Kelvin Timeline is a branching timeline or parallel universe.
If the Kelvin Timeline is a parallel universe, then the actions of Nero affected its intended future so it wouldn't resemble the 24th Century that we are familiar with. The original Kelvin Timeline would have been just like one of those parallel universes shown in the Parallels episode except they might have had Orions as part of the Federation or some other minor difference. If the Kelvin Timeline is a branched timeline, then any time travel events that happened after 2233 would be erased and new temporal events created which could explain some discrepancies that happened before 2233.
So this is interesting, if of questionable veracity (let me reiterate, it's a "friend of a friend" thing and I cannot verify it). A forum member on TrekBBS claiming to be a friend of a member of the production crew has an alternate explanation for Gretchen Berg and Aaron Harberts being removed from DSC. They said that they were planning to take the "red angel" storyline further into the realm of the supernatural and discussion of religion than even DS9 took the Prophets and Pah-Wraiths, but Kurtzman and CBS vetoed it. I'll update this post with a link if I can get it.
Quoth the friend who told me about this after reading it on AlternateHistory.com, "They planned on Pike becoming fully "born again," for example, and were going to explicitly add supernatural elements to Trek canon (well, more explicit than the Prophets/Pah-Wraiths anyway). This may be walked back by Kurtzman later in the season somewhat, so as not to trigger incredible bouts of fan rage.
"Certainly the episode last night seemed to plant the seeds. Pike's father is established as having taught comparative religion. He's open to the possibility that the New Eden colonists' religion may be true, at least in a sense. He's clearly there as a foil to Burnham, who comes down on the side of rational materialism. Despite Burnham having seen the Red Angel, she remains convinced that it's just some sort of advanced alien being.
"Oh, and Tilly starts seeing a childhood acquaintance who is dead."
Have not yet found the original post with this, but here's a reference to it. The primary source is apparently somebody named John E. Price.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
It will be interesting to see if Tilly's childhood acquaintance is a mycellial manifestion just like Culber's ghost, part of the mystery that is leading the Discovery across the galaxy, or a friendly telepathic alien that borrowed a few of Tilly's memories to create a persona that Tilly would trust.
Memory Alpha lists his birth date as 2230. He was assigned to Enterprise in 2254. So he’d be 24 by The Cage
how old is the edit?
I mean, Memory Alpha is a Wikipedia, and (at least when I was going) wikipedia's not a reliable source by itself-it's subject to change.
2230 is shown in Star Trek Beyond.
which is an alternate timeline, iirc, in which several things happened differently?
It doesn't diverge until 2233. Everything before that is exactly as it will has been.
huh, except a whole lot of divergence is seen between them BEFORE 2233. In the original timeline for example, the first Romulan war was fought with nuclear weapons and video comms weren't available... iirc, the same sources that confirmed it was an alternate timeline set the change prior to the Kelvin incident due to timey-wimey shennanigans.
hell, the statement that it diverges at 2233 is just about as non-canon.
But hey, it's Star Trek, where speeds are set at the speed of plot, hte warp-scale is incoherent, and Starfleet is either the United Earth Space Probe Agency ("The Cage", "Where No man has gone before") or the United Federation of Planets Starfleet, they either have 12 starships, or hundreds, (within the same timeframe) and so on.
All conflicting, all said on screen, and therefore, all canon (to an extent, or until the current owners change it.)
It's flat out stated by Spock the divergence happens due to the destruction of the Kelvin and Robus dialogue tells us the date was 2233. That's as canon as you can get.
We simply don't know where old Spock and Nero ended up. They could have gone back in time to the 23rd Century or they could have gone to a parallel universe that looks like the 23rd Century. From Young Spock's perspective, Nero is from the future and he is right that Nero's actions would have caused the future to diverge from its intended course, but there is no evidence that old Spock and Nero came from Young Spock's future. The only evidence that we have about what the Kelvin Timeline is from STO's Terminal Expanse mission which is obviously non-canon and states that it is a parallel universe. So the Kelvin-STO Timeline is a parallel universe, but we don't know what the Kelvin-Movie Timeline is.
Any evidence that the Kelvin Timeline is a branching timeline or parallel universe, would have to come from someone like Daniels or Q or scan for their quantum signature or chronitons. In Star Trek, a different quantum signature means that a person is from a parallel universe while chronitons means that they are from the past or future. Since there is no mention of quantum signatures or chronitons in Star Trek 2009, then we don't know if the Kelvin Timeline is a branching timeline or parallel universe.
If the Kelvin Timeline is a parallel universe, then the actions of Nero affected its intended future so it wouldn't resemble the 24th Century that we are familiar with. The original Kelvin Timeline would have been just like one of those parallel universes shown in the Parallels episode except they might have had Orions as part of the Federation or some other minor difference. If the Kelvin Timeline is a branched timeline, then any time travel events that happened after 2233 would be erased and new temporal events created which could explain some discrepancies that happened before 2233.
They came from the prime future to the prime past. Old Spock has TUC Spock's crew pic, old Spock would know if he were in a different past. KT Spock recognises the correct point of divergence.
That's what the film is portraying. You clearly like convoluted madness but it runs counter to what is onscreen and what the filmmakers have pointed out, so your postulating is neither canon or official.
(Yes I know the different people involved with the setting have different ideas about what the KT is, but all of them disagree with you as does the general mechanism by which time travel in Trek generally works.)
Unless you can provide proof of your claims and counterproof to what the films show then why keep posting the same unsupported hypotheses?
Do you hope to convince others that the films portray themselves incorrectly? Do you hope to somehow convince yourself the films work differently to how they do? Are you just unable to accept straight lines? Are you hoping CBS are going to ring you up and ask you to write some of this gibberish into DSC?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Comments
No. Because she was proven to have been right after all. If she hadn't incapacitated Captain Georgiou, the war still would have happened exactly as pictured. You might remember that it was Georgiou's "we come in peace" that ultimately united the Klingon houses and started the battle at the binary stars. If Burnham's mutiny had succeeded and the Shenzhou had attacked the sarcophagus ship, the other Klingon houses might have seen that as a show of strenght by the Federation. Thus Starfleet would not have been perceived as weak and the houses would not have joined forces.
Anyway, we're already in Season 2, new stuff is happening. And it's interesting stuff, told well. I look forward to the next episode.
---
I wonder if there is a connection between New Eden and Calypso.
In Calypso we learn that the main character's (Craft, played by the wonderful Aldis Hodge) people are in a conflict with what might be the 3xth century Federation, and that he comes from a planet colonized by humans that was not colonized already at least in the 23rd century (maybe even much later)
What if his people are actually descendants of the planet from New Eden? They might have grown over the next centuries (now endowed with a long-lasting power cell, they might be able to jump-start their technological development). These people have little reason to feel any nostalgia about old Earth. They have barely anything left from Earth, and for a long time, they assumed Earth was destroyed. Unlike Earth, that managed to rise from the ashes of WW3 into a new, prosperous future, they were rescued by basically a miracle, so they probably have good reason to assume that old Earth was just not the way to go, and develop a new way of life and advancement. Maybe, centuries later they build their own colonies and expand, eventually towards the borders of the Federation, and eventually, the ideological conflict between the Federation's way and "Eden"s way leads to a military conflict?
CBS put the season 2 first episode up on youtube
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
I'm not a Wesley fan, but while unrealistically "special" he didn't have an overwhelming arrogant vibe to him (IMO). While he "saved the day" far more than he should have, he seemed to be slightly surprised/amazed it was working. Burnham is Wesley without the charm (and he didn't have much charm, so that's saying a lot).
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Slight issue. Spock was not over a hundred years old in Discovery or TOS. He seems to be about the same age as Burnham in the Season 2 Premiere. According to startrek.com, Spock's mother was born in 2210 so she would have been in her 40s when we see her in Discovery and her 70s in A Voyage Home. So Spock is a know-it-all because he is partially from a race of know-it-alls and raised by them for his younger years while Burnham was only raised by a race of know-it-alls.
The whole [s]pod racing[/s] asteroid dodging sequene in those [s]pod racers[/s] [s]tie fighters[/s] shuttle capsule things - I have to admit - I didn't get. Why did they have to do that? Does Discovery not have tractor beams or phasers or SHIELDS to shoot/push the debris? Or shuttles? I mean this was the best way to get the transporter enhancers down there? I did not understand the reason for this scene.
The 'gravity trap' thing in the shuttle bay. Not only did it look terrible when they set up the magic nano folding device ( @artan42 it's not just helmets, everything folds into nothing in the future 😜) but again, tractor beams?
The story was okay, overall. Pike is a good fit. And Tilly is still hot, but she crossed the line to annoying, sadly. Too much. They try way too hard to sell her.
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"It appears we have lost our sex appeal, captain."- Tuvok
Which is why I said they were about the same age. However, we don't know if Vulcan children age as fast as Human children. Vulcans live longer than humans so they might have a longer childhood.
I will say however, that I honestly feel bad for Trek fans that won't let themselves like Discovery. This show is fantastic and only getting better.
Pick it apart if you want, we can do that with every Star Trek Series ever made. You're just cheating yourself, Discovery is fantastic.
For the first two episodes at least, Season 2 is fantastic, but Season 1 is absolute garbage by comparison with only a few decent episodes. Season 2 might end up being just as bad by comparison, but lets hope they don't TRIBBLE it up.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
2230 is shown in Star Trek Beyond.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
It's a dramatic series opener to draw people in. It's a almost feature length episode. Some were overused but some er spectacular. When all three are suited up and looking down on the asteroid and the shipwreck it looks spectacular. I can't help but imagine how dull it would have looked even as modern as ENT. Three guys on a soundstage or greenscreen with a Papier-mâché asteroid.
Replicating and assembling the pieces would have been as quick and not looked as stupid as nano-magic.
Meh, she's no Detmar.
This is correct. Other than a lack of focus on more characters, too much blue tint, and the bloody Mirror Universe, it was coherent, planned, and didn't make me hate a main character (poor S1 Picard).
I don't know where that's from in canon (or just another made up MA thing or it could be from a display like the ENTs crew was in the Mirror Defiant) but a deleted scene from 09 shows him born at the same time as Kirk was on the Kelvin, so his birthdate is 2233 (or 2234 depending on what month the Kelvin was destroyed and accounting for the time it would take to get back to Earth for Kirk to have been born in Iowa without his mother going into early labour due to Nero's attack).
The episode was great though I feel too TNGish. The majority of TNG, TOS film, VGR, and ENT episodes all feel very TNG so it would be nice if DSC didn't also do this. S1 felt like a DS9/TKT hybrid and a mix of DS9/TKT/TOS would be preferable to me and fit better in the era than more TNG. Especially as that hampered ENT from reaching its potential.
I liked it, don't get me wrong, Pike is great, the main theme could have been articulated better at times but the cowardly owners of the forums have decided a major part of Trek is undiscussable so I won't bother.
Burnham is a weak link. I strongly dislike main characters and much prefer ensambles. Seven took over VGR, Kirk had too much focus in TOS, TAS, TOS films, and TKT, Robot the Sidekick ended up as Robot the Star by mid-TNG, but they grew. Kirks story was getting older, Seven and Data were becoming human. I know it's only series 2 (and episode 2 at that) but Burnham has only learnt that mutiny is not all it's cracked up to be.
I have other thoughts I may get into later.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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It doesn't diverge until 2233. Everything before that is exactly as it will has been.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Glad someone has the guts to say it.
Absolutely true.
I don't think it takes any amount of bravery to make a statement you believe to be true on a video game message board with anonymous account handles. We're people talking abut a TV show, and neither side has any kind of moral superiority.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
It's flat out stated by Spock the divergence happens due to the destruction of the Kelvin and Robus dialogue tells us the date was 2233. That's as canon as you can get.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Uum, I think you're trying to have a different conversation and with somebody else.
I have no idea when Spock was born and if DSC mentions it, I said that a deleted scene from 09 had him born in 2233.
Though the rest of your post is more of the same from you, so meh.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Thank you. That overrules a deleted scene.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Quoth the friend who told me about this after reading it on AlternateHistory.com, "They planned on Pike becoming fully "born again," for example, and were going to explicitly add supernatural elements to Trek canon (well, more explicit than the Prophets/Pah-Wraiths anyway). This may be walked back by Kurtzman later in the season somewhat, so as not to trigger incredible bouts of fan rage.
"Certainly the episode last night seemed to plant the seeds. Pike's father is established as having taught comparative religion. He's open to the possibility that the New Eden colonists' religion may be true, at least in a sense. He's clearly there as a foil to Burnham, who comes down on the side of rational materialism. Despite Burnham having seen the Red Angel, she remains convinced that it's just some sort of advanced alien being.
"Oh, and Tilly starts seeing a childhood acquaintance who is dead."
In point of fact, Kael mentioned that CBS asked to borrow Cryptic's notes around the time the Picard show was announced. I'll try to find a citation.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Yeah, no. If it exists it's by definition natural. Just because it can do magic doesn't make it not natural. Things like the Prophets simply see out of time. Vulcan and Ocampan mind powers are psionic energy. The existence of the Red Angels would make them just an existing entity. The supernatural is something that can't exist because it is incongruent with how reality functions. As 'magic' is part of how the universe of Trek works, the entities that use said 'magic' clearly aren't supernatural anymore than Birds are supernatural for using magnets.
The New Eden religion medley being true and the Red Angels being advanced aliens are the same conclusion. Burnham just sees no reason to use fantastical words to describe something who's only hard fact is their existence. Pike seems to be taking the position that, if they exist that is suddenly proof of any and all claims made about them. The old 'New York exists, ergo Spider-Man exists' argument.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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We simply don't know where old Spock and Nero ended up. They could have gone back in time to the 23rd Century or they could have gone to a parallel universe that looks like the 23rd Century. From Young Spock's perspective, Nero is from the future and he is right that Nero's actions would have caused the future to diverge from its intended course, but there is no evidence that old Spock and Nero came from Young Spock's future. The only evidence that we have about what the Kelvin Timeline is from STO's Terminal Expanse mission which is obviously non-canon and states that it is a parallel universe. So the Kelvin-STO Timeline is a parallel universe, but we don't know what the Kelvin-Movie Timeline is.
Any evidence that the Kelvin Timeline is a branching timeline or parallel universe, would have to come from someone like Daniels or Q or scan for their quantum signature or chronitons. In Star Trek, a different quantum signature means that a person is from a parallel universe while chronitons means that they are from the past or future. Since there is no mention of quantum signatures or chronitons in Star Trek 2009, then we don't know if the Kelvin Timeline is a branching timeline or parallel universe.
If the Kelvin Timeline is a parallel universe, then the actions of Nero affected its intended future so it wouldn't resemble the 24th Century that we are familiar with. The original Kelvin Timeline would have been just like one of those parallel universes shown in the Parallels episode except they might have had Orions as part of the Federation or some other minor difference. If the Kelvin Timeline is a branched timeline, then any time travel events that happened after 2233 would be erased and new temporal events created which could explain some discrepancies that happened before 2233.
Have not yet found the original post with this, but here's a reference to it. The primary source is apparently somebody named John E. Price.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Which to be honest, I wouldn't be against.
They came from the prime future to the prime past. Old Spock has TUC Spock's crew pic, old Spock would know if he were in a different past. KT Spock recognises the correct point of divergence.
That's what the film is portraying. You clearly like convoluted madness but it runs counter to what is onscreen and what the filmmakers have pointed out, so your postulating is neither canon or official.
(Yes I know the different people involved with the setting have different ideas about what the KT is, but all of them disagree with you as does the general mechanism by which time travel in Trek generally works.)
Unless you can provide proof of your claims and counterproof to what the films show then why keep posting the same unsupported hypotheses?
Do you hope to convince others that the films portray themselves incorrectly? Do you hope to somehow convince yourself the films work differently to how they do? Are you just unable to accept straight lines? Are you hoping CBS are going to ring you up and ask you to write some of this gibberish into DSC?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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