The only instance in the Mirror Darkly opening that indicated its history might be completely different from the Prime Universe is the planting of the Terran Empire flag on the moon. Although, that could have happened after the Phoenix or at least in the 21st Century due to how advanced the EV Suit looked compared to what Neil Armstrong wore. Before the planting the flag scene, every part of the opening was showing the darker side of our history. Instead of showing peaceful exploration, it was showing conquest.
As far as the writers are concerned, it could be due to the Terran Empire making the various stories fit with their vicious narrative. After all, various dictatorships have been known to rewrite history. If the Mirror Universe Humans tried to stamp out Equality, Freedom, and Cooperation for thousands of years, then there is no need for the Historical Revisionism explanation.
Phlox: I was merely researching classical literature. I wanted to compare our major works with their counterparts in the other universe. I skimmed a few of the more celebrated narratives. The stories were similar in some respects, but their characters were weak and compassionate. With the exception of Shakespeare, of course. From what I could tell, his plays were equally grim in both universes.
The thing that made the Terran Empire so scary is the idea that we could become it. World War III ended in 2053 or 10 years before Cochrane made his famous encounter with the Vulcans. Colonel Green made a speech in 2056 asking for the impure to be purged from society. It is easy to see how if humans accepted Colonel Green's arguments in one of their darkest times, the Prime Universe would have had the Terran Empire instead of the Federation. If the Mirror Universe's Earth literature is filled with the main characters being strong and cruel instead of weak and compassionate, then it is very easy for Mirror Universe Humans to be swayed by purging the impure from society while it would be far more difficult for us to make the same vile decision.
The real problem is that Roddenberry, and the producers afterward seemed to give no thought whatsoever to how the Terran Empire came to be, and how and when it diverged from our Universe...or even if it diverged at all. The basic premise seemed to be that the Federation defined what the producers held to be good, and the Mirror Universe was but a caricature of what humans would be like if they rejected everything the producers held to be good. The Empire, as a actual system of government, is ridiculous. Even the Totalitarian Regimes of the 20th century....the USSR and Third Reich, for example...would never tolerate the situation in their fleet, where officers moved up the ranks by assassinating or killing their superiors in duels. Yeah, the upper reaches of power, and especially the Emperor's Court, would be GoT 24-7, but out in the Fleet any drama that got in the way of the Fleet keeping the Empire's boot firmly planted on the necks of the subject races would be dealt with quickly and harshly.
Your Phlox quote heavily implies that the attitudes of humans were completely different as far back (potentially) as antiquity...I took that scene as him saying that he had basically looked for insight on when the universes set out on opposite paths, and he couldn't find it in classic literature. To use the old RPG term...the Terran Empire is Stupid Evil. They have no ideology, or long term plan, they just do evil things because they can and humans in the Mirror Universe seem in general to be wired to have a predilection for psychopathic behavior. If Roddenberry had intended or them to be a recurring foe intended to be taken seriously, they would have modeled them on one of the 20th Century's Totalitarian States, probably the Third Reich.
The mirror universe outside of DS9 pretty much runs on Rule of Grimdark, i.e. "the heck with logic, let's goof off and make our characters evil for an episode", which doesn't work as well when it's played dead seriously as in DSC. (People forget that Warhammer 40k originally was grimdark to be goofy, whereas these days it tends to only be that way when Ciaphas Cain is involved.)
This is symptomatic of a larger fundamental flaw in Star Trek, particularly TOS and TNG, and is a shortcoming of the Planet of Hats.
The franchise is often more interested in allegory than in developing a society that could actually function, or of considering the logical consequences that would make the allegorical society fall apart. DS9 was kind of forced by its stationary (heh heh) format to avoid this, since they'd quickly run out of plots if they didn't develop their aliens better.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
The Terran Empire not working as a functional society is no surprise. Look how many times Klingon culture has been reworked as their recurring roles became a normal staple of the franchise.
Back in TOS they were an allegory of the Soviet Union, and shared more in common with DS9's Cardassian's, acting as a might makes right police state. When TNG started Gene wanted to show how wondrous and grand his vision of the Federation was by tearing down all the alien cultures and having them snarl and howl like animals. Once Worf got moved from the background to being a proper equal among the cast the writers had to go back and tone down some of Gene's self-indulgences and flesh out the details to make them a viable culture.
Totalitarian States rewrite history to fit their narrative. Historical Revisionism after World War III could explain Phlox's quote. Georgiou's quote about getting rid of Equality, Freedom, and Cooperation for millenia is more indicative that the two universes set on opposite paths much earlier.
A real Totalitarian government wouldn't tell you it's getting rid of 'Equality, Freedom, and Cooperation'....it would tell you it's upholding them as it is redefining them to mean something quite different than what they mean to you and I. For Humans, anyway. And after the Terek Noor Rebellion, the select alien species that got on the bandwagon when it counted.....their reward for thier loyalty is to be allowed to join the Team, albeit in a subordinate role. For them, it's a unprecedented act of generosity. Of course, Comrade, to achieve these lofty goals certain sacrifices have to be made...and for the Greater Good of Mankind, the State must, however reluctantly, assume certain Emergency Powers until the threat presented by the Other has finally been overcome.
As for the Empire, being Stupid Evil, they lack a narrative that they could retroactively impose on history, in this case classical literature. Rewriting classic texts to sanitize them would take away time that could be spent more productively (in their eyes) inflicting pain on something, so rather than rewriting books with subversive context, they would suppress most of them (more likely they would never have been published in the first place) and elevate more suitable works (to them) to the status of "classical" works. For example, "To Kill a Mockingbird" goes down the Memory Hole, the Regime adds the vile treatise "The Turner Diaries" in it's place.
I think the simplest choice is the right one here.....humans in the "Mirror Universe" are basically psychopaths and always have been. Otherwise, Phlox would have noticed most of what the Empire considers classic literature to be missing entirely.
Now, this is not THE Mirror Universe. This is A Mirror Universe. With the multiverse theory and the many-worlds interpretation in play, there are theoretically infinite variations of the Mirrorverse, such as one where the Terran Empire never fell after encountering Prime Kirk, one where they never encountered Prime Kirk, one where they all died out after WWIII, one where the Defiant never came through, or one where the Rebellion in the 24th century was quelled in short order. The possibilities are, quite literally, infinite.
The Prime Universe just hit the universe-hopping jackpot numerous times by going to the same place, which makes me wonder if it was truly blind luck, or if there was something else in play to make that happen.
I think you're right...this isn't the Mirror universe Kirk, Kiera and Bashir stumbled into by accident, or that reached out to DS9, it's a entirely different one. The arrival of the Defiant would have completely changed history....she was orders of magnitude more powerful than anything in the ENT era, but not so advanced that Empire scientists and engineers couldn't reverse engineer her systems and use the knowledge gained to advance their own tech base. Once the Rebellion was quashed, they would have studied the vessel to unlock the technical advances and applied them to build a fleet that was unstoppable.
One theory is that this is the Kelvin Timeline's Mirror Universe, and the Discovery herself is from the Kelvin "Prime" Timeline. The arrival of the Narada caused the KT Federation to accelerate it's tech, the Defiant was dropped on the Empire, enabling them to catch up and balance it out. Whether it's Chaos theory or by design is anybody's guess.
The next big clue will be when Burnham & Co find the Defiant....if she looks just as she did (or close) in TOS and ENT, that will say a lot about what is really going on.
SCARY evil shares some of the causes you agree with, but carries it out in ways that chill you to the core of your soul. An antagonist tht simply embodies everything you dislike is boring, because they end up coming across simply as stupidly unproductive and awkward.
Let me give you an example of scary evil;
A scientist, concerned with pollution and global warming, engineers a virus to kill 99% of the population, and a serum to guarantee only the 'right people' survive. that's actual, scary evil, because he's doing it for a very good reason, but his chosen method is horrific.
Good example....but you are neglecting the fact that Hollywood chooses it's villains to bolster a outside narrative. Remember how at the outset of TRIBBLE the Klingons were declared to be the stand-ins for Trump supporters? And how they launched the war basically because they are terrified the Federation is coming to force it's way of life down their throats? (Ironically, they have more faith in the Federation's strength than the TNG writers did) Your idea is very similar to the plot of the first Kingsman movie, which wasn't made, or financed, by Hollywood.
The big reason they avoid "Scary Evil" antagonists like your example is that it, at best, interferes with their narrative...that the audience should hate whatever the antagonist stands for without question...and at worst may cause the audience to have sympathy for, and identify with, the current subject of the "Two Minutes Hate".
Now, this is not THE Mirror Universe. This is A Mirror Universe. With the multiverse theory and the many-worlds interpretation in play, there are theoretically infinite variations of the Mirrorverse, such as one where the Terran Empire never fell after encountering Prime Kirk, one where they never encountered Prime Kirk, one where they all died out after WWIII, one where the Defiant never came through, or one where the Rebellion in the 24th century was quelled in short order. The possibilities are, quite literally, infinite.
The Prime Universe just hit the universe-hopping jackpot numerous times by going to the same place, which makes me wonder if it was truly blind luck, or if there was something else in play to make that happen.
One theory is that this is the Kelvin Timeline's Mirror Universe, and the Discovery herself is from the Kelvin "Prime" Timeline. The arrival of the Narada caused the KT Federation to accelerate it's tech, the Defiant was dropped on the Empire, enabling them to catch up and balance it out. Whether it's Chaos theory or by design is anybody's guess.
The next big clue will be when Burnham & Co find the Defiant....if she looks just as she did (or close) in TOS and ENT, that will say a lot about what is really going on.
We have a rough estimation of what the Defiant looks like. The only issue is whether it was modified in the Mirror Universe or not.
The Enterprise and TOS versions of the Defiant look identical.
Obviously, they don't look like the same ship due to having different saucer, deflector, and struts, but it could be explained by it being modified after In a Mirror Darkly.
As far as the idea of the Defiant coming from the Kelvin Universe that is even more unlikely. The Defiant is a Constitution-class starship so it has to look like the Enterprise from the Kelvin Universe.
The nacelles are too large for the Kelvin Universe version of the USS Defiant to be the Mirror Universe version for it to have been modified. Discovery could be set in a parallel universe or set about 100 years after Enterprise which is different from about 10 years before TOS due to all the temporal interference in Enterprise messing up the future, but it is not set in the Kelvin Universe. There is also all the legal issues of setting Discovery in the Kelvin Universe.
The whole concept of a Mirror Universe or any parallel universe that is similar to the original universe is idiotic. The probability of two parallel universes having the same people is astronomical.
Depends on which theory you want to believe in. The one I prefer is that there is a unique universe for every possible decision everyone could ever possibly make, meaning that there would be an infinite number of universes with the same people, and an infinite number of universes with different people.
The whole concept of a Mirror Universe or any parallel universe that is similar to the original universe is idiotic. The probability of two parallel universes having the same people is astronomical.
Depends on which theory you want to believe in. The one I prefer is that there is a unique universe for every possible decision everyone could ever possibly make, meaning that there would be an infinite number of universes with the same people, and an infinite number of universes with different people.
True enough, but the concept that identical people would exist in radically different parallel universes doesn't make sense. In order for starkaos to exist in a parallel universe, my alternate's parents have to get together and conceive me at the same time I was conceived. Then my alternate would need to have similar enough interests to get into Star Trek and playing MMOs. Then there is the problem that the alternate world has to create Star Trek Online. So it far more likely that given the astronomically slim chance that there is another version of me out there, they would be nothing like me due to making different choices than I did. So if there are an infinite number of starkaos, then there would be even more of me that aren't starkaos, and even more where I never existed.
I misspoke in my previous quote. Due to the astronomically small chance of two parallel universes having the same people, having a person encounter someone in a parallel universe that they know is idiotic. And even if it someone that they know, then it is extremely unlikely that they exist in that universe. So if I obtained or built a interdimensional travel device and tried to find a parallel version of myself, then I would never find them due to the probability being something like 0.0000000000000000001% even if I have visit each reality for a second and have a magical device that can scan the entire universe for my DNA. Only with the presence of an omnipotent being would I be able to find another starkaos.
There is the possibility that identical initial conditions provide identical outcomes. So even if there are an infinite amount of parallel universes, then the whole concept of parallel universes doesn't matter. I will always make the same decisions due to the initial conditions of the universe. If the initial conditions of the universe are different in a parallel universe, then I don't exist. So I will always be starkaos. If I make the choice between eating a burger or a pizza slice for lunch and choose the burger in this universe, then I will always choose the burger in every parallel universe.
We have a rough estimation of what the Defiant looks like. The only issue is whether it was modified in the Mirror Universe or not.
The Enterprise and TOS versions of the Defiant look identical.
Obviously, they don't look like the same ship due to having different saucer, deflector, and struts, but it could be explained by it being modified after In a Mirror Darkly.
It's also possible that that's what Connies look like in TRIBBLE's Prime Universe....they probably pulled their own recognition guide data for the info....or, that is what the Prime Universe Connie looked like before a refit sometime before TOS began. IIRC, Enterprise (1701) and her sisters were built in the 2240s, there would have been at least 1-2 yard overhauls by the time of the 5 year mission. Her appearance...and the reasons given for any difference beyond "modernizing" her a bit for modern tastes....will be a significant piece of the puzzle on where they are taking this series.
As far as the idea of the Defiant coming from the Kelvin Universe that is even more unlikely. The Defiant is a Constitution-class starship so it has to look like the Enterprise from the Kelvin Universe.
The nacelles are too large for the Kelvin Universe version of the USS Defiant to be the Mirror Universe version for it to have been modified. Discovery could be set in a parallel universe or set about 100 years after Enterprise which is different from about 10 years before TOS due to all the temporal interference in Enterprise messing up the future, but it is not set in the Kelvin Universe. There is also all the legal issues of setting Discovery in the Kelvin Universe.
The Defiant is the Prime Universe vessel, sorry if I was unclear there. My idea is that the Mirror Universe the Defiant fell into in ENT wasn't the same Mirror Universe as the one in TOS and DS9, but that of a different timeline....TRIBBLE's. If the KT is out of bounds for legal reasons that is fair enough....but the more I learn about TRIBBLE, the more it seems to me that this is not the Prime Universe, it's a parallel universe with a strong KT vibe. Defiant, and her advanced weapons and engineering would have changed the course of history completely....and it's silly to think that the Empire was so stagnant that it would merely make copies of the Defiant and not advance their tech dramatically. ISS Charon, for example, seems to indicate that they actively worked to turn their good fortune into a insurmountable tech advantage over all the other races.
In that regard, the writers seem to have addressed a glaring issue with Defiant falling into the hands of the Mirror Universe in the 22nd Century....the long term ramifications it had on the MU.
I don't think it's the JJ mirror universe, imo when the Defiant went back a new version of the mirror universe was likely spun off, either that or the history of the mirror universe was simply altered, making this different from the one we saw in Mirror, Mirror. The second option works with TOS because Tholian Web was after Mirror, Mirror, but it falls apart when you factor DS9 into the equation so idk.
One thing that bothers me though if it's all supposed to be the same identical mirror universe in every trek series, is that it seems odd that no one in the DS9 era would mention the Defiant having the same name as Empress Sato's Defiant.
> @evilmark444 said: > One thing that bothers me though if it's all supposed to be the same identical mirror universe in every trek series, is that it seems odd that no one in the DS9 era would mention the Defiant having the same name as Empress Sato's Defiant.
My guess is that the knowledge of an alternate reality universe would have been either kept under wraps by Starfleet due to some longstanding rule regarding deployment details (OpSec is very much a real thing) or the much less realistic but much more hilarious notion that all of Kirk's side adventures were quietly shelved and filed away by some bureaucrat who read the logs and said "My GOD what a storyteller!"
Space Barbie Extraordinaire. Got a question about Space Barbie? Just ask.
Things I want in STO:
1) More character customization options such as more clothing options, letting the toon complexion affect the entire body, not just the head. Also a true RGB color picker applied to all costume and appearance options, which would allow for true appearance customization and homogenous colors instead of "this same exact color looks vastly different on two different pieces."
2) Bridge customization, not bridge packs. Let us pick a general layout and adjust the color palette, console appearance, and chair types, as well as more ready room layout options.
3) Customizable ground weapons, i.e. The aesthetic look of phaser dual pistols but they shoot antiproton bolts. For obvious reasons this would only apply to standard ground weapons.
4) For the love of Q please revamp Plasma Ground Weapons. They look like demented Supersoakers right now.
5) True Vanity Impulse and Deflector effects similar to Vanity Shields.
6) A greater payout for hitting T6 Reputations. Currently it takes more time and resources to get from T5 to T6 than it does to get from nothing to T5. Make that grind really pay out at the end.
7) Mirrorverse Refugee event similar to AoY/Delta/Gamma, complete with new Mirrorverse recruits for all factions.
8) Independent Faction, because yo ho yo ho a pirate's life for me!
> evilmark444 said:
> One thing that bothers me though if it's all supposed to be the same identical mirror universe in every trek series, is that it seems odd that no one in the DS9 era would mention the Defiant having the same name as Empress Sato's Defiant.
My guess is that the knowledge of an alternate reality universe would have been either kept under wraps by Starfleet due to some longstanding rule regarding deployment details (OpSec is very much a real thing) or the much less realistic but much more hilarious notion that all of Kirk's side adventures were quietly shelved and filed away by some bureaucrat who read the logs and said "My GOD what a storyteller!"
I meant that I find it odd none of the DS9 era mirror universe characters ever mention Sato's Defiant when building their version of Sisko's Defiant there would be a lot of symbolism in that, so surely someone would mention it.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
I understand the real world reasons, but in-universe it is a bit odd
Do you know, without looking it up, the name of Hitler's dog? Or Sadaam's favorite aftershave? No? Well that's quite odd...
Like shadowfang said, Sato's Defiant didn't exist in the 90s. The real world reason, trumps the in-universe's ability to be internally rationalized through mental convolutions. Unless you're willing to accept a rationale like I suggested: That the information simply wouldn't be as widely known to the denizens of that reality. We, as viewers, know A Lot which the characters do not... Imposing the need for them to have the same knowledge, and trying to criticize that they don't, is rather silly...
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
> evilmark444 said:
> One thing that bothers me though if it's all supposed to be the same identical mirror universe in every trek series, is that it seems odd that no one in the DS9 era would mention the Defiant having the same name as Empress Sato's Defiant.
My guess is that the knowledge of an alternate reality universe would have been either kept under wraps by Starfleet due to some longstanding rule regarding deployment details (OpSec is very much a real thing) or the much less realistic but much more hilarious notion that all of Kirk's side adventures were quietly shelved and filed away by some bureaucrat who read the logs and said "My GOD what a storyteller!"
I meant that I find it odd none of the DS9 era mirror universe characters ever mention Sato's Defiant when building their version of Sisko's Defiant there would be a lot of symbolism in that, so surely someone would mention it.
Maybe Hoshi Sato decided to rename it after she ascended to become Empress? The new name is the one most people would remember.
We have a rough estimation of what the Defiant looks like. The only issue is whether it was modified in the Mirror Universe or not.
The Enterprise and TOS versions of the Defiant look identical.
Obviously, they don't look like the same ship due to having different saucer, deflector, and struts, but it could be explained by it being modified after In a Mirror Darkly.
It's also possible that that's what Connies look like in TRIBBLE's Prime Universe....they probably pulled their own recognition guide data for the info....or, that is what the Prime Universe Connie looked like before a refit sometime before TOS began. IIRC, Enterprise (1701) and her sisters were built in the 2240s, there would have been at least 1-2 yard overhauls by the time of the 5 year mission. Her appearance...and the reasons given for any difference beyond "modernizing" her a bit for modern tastes....will be a significant piece of the puzzle on where they are taking this series.
As far as the idea of the Defiant coming from the Kelvin Universe that is even more unlikely. The Defiant is a Constitution-class starship so it has to look like the Enterprise from the Kelvin Universe.
The nacelles are too large for the Kelvin Universe version of the USS Defiant to be the Mirror Universe version for it to have been modified. Discovery could be set in a parallel universe or set about 100 years after Enterprise which is different from about 10 years before TOS due to all the temporal interference in Enterprise messing up the future, but it is not set in the Kelvin Universe. There is also all the legal issues of setting Discovery in the Kelvin Universe.
The Defiant is the Prime Universe vessel, sorry if I was unclear there. My idea is that the Mirror Universe the Defiant fell into in ENT wasn't the same Mirror Universe as the one in TOS and DS9, but that of a different timeline....TRIBBLE's. If the KT is out of bounds for legal reasons that is fair enough....but the more I learn about TRIBBLE, the more it seems to me that this is not the Prime Universe, it's a parallel universe with a strong KT vibe. Defiant, and her advanced weapons and engineering would have changed the course of history completely....and it's silly to think that the Empire was so stagnant that it would merely make copies of the Defiant and not advance their tech dramatically. ISS Charon, for example, seems to indicate that they actively worked to turn their good fortune into a insurmountable tech advantage over all the other races.
In that regard, the writers seem to have addressed a glaring issue with Defiant falling into the hands of the Mirror Universe in the 22nd Century....the long term ramifications it had on the MU.
One of my opinions that I have mentioned a few times before is that Discovery is set 100 years after Enterprise and not 10 years before TOS due to the Temporal Cold War TRIBBLE up Enterprise's future. So the events in TOS, TNG, DS9, and Voyager no longer exist. It is the Prime Universe, but not the same timeline. The timeline shown in the first few episodes of TOS is not the same as the timeline in Nemesis.
A possible way to explain the Mirror Universe's technology discrepancy between TOS and Discovery is that the Emperor heavily controls the technology. Without her authorization, the technology doesn't work. So the advanced technology caused by the Defiant arriving 100 years earlier is rendered useless due to the future actions in Discovery and the Terran Empire has to use less advanced ships.
One thing that bothers me though if it's all supposed to be the same identical mirror universe in every trek series, is that it seems odd that no one in the DS9 era would mention the Defiant having the same name as Empress Sato's Defiant.
The Defiant is heavily classified so it is possible that all information on the Defiant was lost between Discovery and DS9. Then there is the fact that Emperor Georgiou wiped out the majority of people that heard about parallel universe due to its information polluting the Empire.
DS9s Mirror Universe episode couldn't even keep themselves straight. The alliance needs to steal cloaking devices from the Prime because they forgot they already could cloak in previous episodes. Having O'Brian not mention Defiant was the name of the Emperors old flagship is an understandable memory laps compared to forgetting you have the power to render starships invisible.
As for the Defiant, it's either the launch configuration ~2245 (suggested by the fact it has 'USS' next to the name) or it's showing the Terran modifications (backed up by the writers comments).
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
The Defiant is heavily classified so it is possible that all information on the Defiant was lost between Discovery and DS9. Then there is the fact that Emperor Georgiou wiped out the majority of people that heard about parallel universe due to its information polluting the Empire.
How it got there is classified, but even the rebels are aware of it's existence though (the memory core that gave the Discovery crew the basic info on it came from a rebel ship, remember). Mirror Kira said that Kirk's name was incredibly important in their history books and everyone knew his name, wouldn't the USS Defiant be equally important to their history? As I said before, I like to think of this as a second, separate mirror universe, hopefully one where the Empire never falls.
The Defiant is heavily classified so it is possible that all information on the Defiant was lost between Discovery and DS9. Then there is the fact that Emperor Georgiou wiped out the majority of people that heard about parallel universe due to its information polluting the Empire.
How it got there is classified, but even the rebels are aware of it's existence though (the memory core that gave the Discovery crew the basic info on it came from a rebel ship, remember). Mirror Kira said that Kirk's name was incredibly important in their history books and everyone knew his name, wouldn't the USS Defiant be equally important to their history? As I said before, I like to think of this as a second, separate mirror universe, hopefully one where the Empire never falls.
Long live the Empire!
I refer you to my previous statement...
I agree, this isn't the same Mirror Universe as was seen before(becauseDiscoveryisn'tthesametimelineasbefore )
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
I totally called the transporter accident explanation for Mirror Lorca
It is the obvious explanation since useful transportation to and from the Mirror Universe has always been the transporters. Looks like Prime and Mirror Lorca are dead unless Deus Ex Machina is used. Someone teleporting Prime Lorca off of the ship before it was destroyed and Mirror Lorca becoming part of the Spore Network and becoming more powerful as a result.
It looks like some time travel will be involved in Discovery since there is no evidence of the Klingons winning a war against the Federation.
I totally called the transporter accident explanation for Mirror Lorca
It looks like some time travel will be involved in Discovery since there is no evidence of the Klingons winning a war against the Federation.
Definitely, cause the Federation being conquered at this point wouldn't mesh with TOS at all.
It could work without time travel if Discovery is set in a parallel universe or another timeline. It would be an interesting way of resolving it without using the lazy writing of time travel to fix a problem with the writing. Using time travel is almost as bad is writing off an entire season as it being just a dream. Part of me suspects that the events in TOS, TNG, DS9, and Voyager never happened due to the events in Enterprise and Discovery.
I understand the real world reasons, but in-universe it is a bit odd
Do you know, without looking it up, the name of Hitler's dog? Or Sadaam's favorite aftershave? No? Well that's quite odd...
No, but I know the name of the Imperial Roman army and the Panzerkampfwagen III. There's a bit of a difference between a toiletry item and a key element in the success of an entire military.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I understand the real world reasons, but in-universe it is a bit odd
Do you know, without looking it up, the name of Hitler's dog? Or Sadaam's favorite aftershave? No? Well that's quite odd...
No, but I know the name of the Imperial Roman army and the Panzerkampfwagen III. There's a bit of a difference between a toiletry item and a key element in the success of an entire military.
There are a lot of different ships named Enterprise and the Terran Empire's history might have a lot of ships named Defiant. Also, there is the fact that the fact that the USS Defiant is a Federation ship is heavily classified according to Emperor Georgiou. The rebel ship computers knew that the USS Defiant came from a parallel universe. The Terran Empire network knew that the USS Defiant used Interspace. Only the Emperor seemed to know that the USS Defiant came from the Federation. If all the Emperor's classified files were on the ISS Charon, then chances are that all the classified information about Sato's Defiant is permanently lost. So there is no way that people from the 24th Century Mirror Universe would determine the connection between the USS Defiant and Sato's Defiant.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
I totally called the transporter accident explanation for Mirror Lorca
It looks like some time travel will be involved in Discovery since there is no evidence of the Klingons winning a war against the Federation.
Definitely, cause the Federation being conquered at this point wouldn't mesh with TOS at all.
It could work without time travel if Discovery is set in a parallel universe or another timeline. It would be an interesting way of resolving it without using the lazy writing of time travel to fix a problem with the writing. Using time travel is almost as bad is writing off an entire season as it being just a dream. Part of me suspects that the events in TOS, TNG, DS9, and Voyager never happened due to the events in Enterprise and Discovery.
I suspect it'll be a situation where the crew of the Discovery remembers all the events of this season, including those they change, rather than a complete reset of the timeline.
Comments
This is symptomatic of a larger fundamental flaw in Star Trek, particularly TOS and TNG, and is a shortcoming of the Planet of Hats.
The franchise is often more interested in allegory than in developing a society that could actually function, or of considering the logical consequences that would make the allegorical society fall apart. DS9 was kind of forced by its stationary (heh heh) format to avoid this, since they'd quickly run out of plots if they didn't develop their aliens better.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Back in TOS they were an allegory of the Soviet Union, and shared more in common with DS9's Cardassian's, acting as a might makes right police state. When TNG started Gene wanted to show how wondrous and grand his vision of the Federation was by tearing down all the alien cultures and having them snarl and howl like animals. Once Worf got moved from the background to being a proper equal among the cast the writers had to go back and tone down some of Gene's self-indulgences and flesh out the details to make them a viable culture.
A real Totalitarian government wouldn't tell you it's getting rid of 'Equality, Freedom, and Cooperation'....it would tell you it's upholding them as it is redefining them to mean something quite different than what they mean to you and I. For Humans, anyway. And after the Terek Noor Rebellion, the select alien species that got on the bandwagon when it counted.....their reward for thier loyalty is to be allowed to join the Team, albeit in a subordinate role. For them, it's a unprecedented act of generosity. Of course, Comrade, to achieve these lofty goals certain sacrifices have to be made...and for the Greater Good of Mankind, the State must, however reluctantly, assume certain Emergency Powers until the threat presented by the Other has finally been overcome.
As for the Empire, being Stupid Evil, they lack a narrative that they could retroactively impose on history, in this case classical literature. Rewriting classic texts to sanitize them would take away time that could be spent more productively (in their eyes) inflicting pain on something, so rather than rewriting books with subversive context, they would suppress most of them (more likely they would never have been published in the first place) and elevate more suitable works (to them) to the status of "classical" works. For example, "To Kill a Mockingbird" goes down the Memory Hole, the Regime adds the vile treatise "The Turner Diaries" in it's place.
I think the simplest choice is the right one here.....humans in the "Mirror Universe" are basically psychopaths and always have been. Otherwise, Phlox would have noticed most of what the Empire considers classic literature to be missing entirely.
I think you're right...this isn't the Mirror universe Kirk, Kiera and Bashir stumbled into by accident, or that reached out to DS9, it's a entirely different one. The arrival of the Defiant would have completely changed history....she was orders of magnitude more powerful than anything in the ENT era, but not so advanced that Empire scientists and engineers couldn't reverse engineer her systems and use the knowledge gained to advance their own tech base. Once the Rebellion was quashed, they would have studied the vessel to unlock the technical advances and applied them to build a fleet that was unstoppable.
One theory is that this is the Kelvin Timeline's Mirror Universe, and the Discovery herself is from the Kelvin "Prime" Timeline. The arrival of the Narada caused the KT Federation to accelerate it's tech, the Defiant was dropped on the Empire, enabling them to catch up and balance it out. Whether it's Chaos theory or by design is anybody's guess.
The next big clue will be when Burnham & Co find the Defiant....if she looks just as she did (or close) in TOS and ENT, that will say a lot about what is really going on.
Good example....but you are neglecting the fact that Hollywood chooses it's villains to bolster a outside narrative. Remember how at the outset of TRIBBLE the Klingons were declared to be the stand-ins for Trump supporters? And how they launched the war basically because they are terrified the Federation is coming to force it's way of life down their throats? (Ironically, they have more faith in the Federation's strength than the TNG writers did) Your idea is very similar to the plot of the first Kingsman movie, which wasn't made, or financed, by Hollywood.
The big reason they avoid "Scary Evil" antagonists like your example is that it, at best, interferes with their narrative...that the audience should hate whatever the antagonist stands for without question...and at worst may cause the audience to have sympathy for, and identify with, the current subject of the "Two Minutes Hate".
... no
Nonetheless the first thing I would do as Terran Captain would be to replicate the He-Man sword
We have a rough estimation of what the Defiant looks like. The only issue is whether it was modified in the Mirror Universe or not.
The Enterprise and TOS versions of the Defiant look identical.
Obviously, they don't look like the same ship due to having different saucer, deflector, and struts, but it could be explained by it being modified after In a Mirror Darkly.
As far as the idea of the Defiant coming from the Kelvin Universe that is even more unlikely. The Defiant is a Constitution-class starship so it has to look like the Enterprise from the Kelvin Universe.
The nacelles are too large for the Kelvin Universe version of the USS Defiant to be the Mirror Universe version for it to have been modified. Discovery could be set in a parallel universe or set about 100 years after Enterprise which is different from about 10 years before TOS due to all the temporal interference in Enterprise messing up the future, but it is not set in the Kelvin Universe. There is also all the legal issues of setting Discovery in the Kelvin Universe.
Depends on which theory you want to believe in. The one I prefer is that there is a unique universe for every possible decision everyone could ever possibly make, meaning that there would be an infinite number of universes with the same people, and an infinite number of universes with different people.
True enough, but the concept that identical people would exist in radically different parallel universes doesn't make sense. In order for starkaos to exist in a parallel universe, my alternate's parents have to get together and conceive me at the same time I was conceived. Then my alternate would need to have similar enough interests to get into Star Trek and playing MMOs. Then there is the problem that the alternate world has to create Star Trek Online. So it far more likely that given the astronomically slim chance that there is another version of me out there, they would be nothing like me due to making different choices than I did. So if there are an infinite number of starkaos, then there would be even more of me that aren't starkaos, and even more where I never existed.
I misspoke in my previous quote. Due to the astronomically small chance of two parallel universes having the same people, having a person encounter someone in a parallel universe that they know is idiotic. And even if it someone that they know, then it is extremely unlikely that they exist in that universe. So if I obtained or built a interdimensional travel device and tried to find a parallel version of myself, then I would never find them due to the probability being something like 0.0000000000000000001% even if I have visit each reality for a second and have a magical device that can scan the entire universe for my DNA. Only with the presence of an omnipotent being would I be able to find another starkaos.
There is the possibility that identical initial conditions provide identical outcomes. So even if there are an infinite amount of parallel universes, then the whole concept of parallel universes doesn't matter. I will always make the same decisions due to the initial conditions of the universe. If the initial conditions of the universe are different in a parallel universe, then I don't exist. So I will always be starkaos. If I make the choice between eating a burger or a pizza slice for lunch and choose the burger in this universe, then I will always choose the burger in every parallel universe.
It's also possible that that's what Connies look like in TRIBBLE's Prime Universe....they probably pulled their own recognition guide data for the info....or, that is what the Prime Universe Connie looked like before a refit sometime before TOS began. IIRC, Enterprise (1701) and her sisters were built in the 2240s, there would have been at least 1-2 yard overhauls by the time of the 5 year mission. Her appearance...and the reasons given for any difference beyond "modernizing" her a bit for modern tastes....will be a significant piece of the puzzle on where they are taking this series.
The Defiant is the Prime Universe vessel, sorry if I was unclear there. My idea is that the Mirror Universe the Defiant fell into in ENT wasn't the same Mirror Universe as the one in TOS and DS9, but that of a different timeline....TRIBBLE's. If the KT is out of bounds for legal reasons that is fair enough....but the more I learn about TRIBBLE, the more it seems to me that this is not the Prime Universe, it's a parallel universe with a strong KT vibe. Defiant, and her advanced weapons and engineering would have changed the course of history completely....and it's silly to think that the Empire was so stagnant that it would merely make copies of the Defiant and not advance their tech dramatically. ISS Charon, for example, seems to indicate that they actively worked to turn their good fortune into a insurmountable tech advantage over all the other races.
In that regard, the writers seem to have addressed a glaring issue with Defiant falling into the hands of the Mirror Universe in the 22nd Century....the long term ramifications it had on the MU.
One thing that bothers me though if it's all supposed to be the same identical mirror universe in every trek series, is that it seems odd that no one in the DS9 era would mention the Defiant having the same name as Empress Sato's Defiant.
> One thing that bothers me though if it's all supposed to be the same identical mirror universe in every trek series, is that it seems odd that no one in the DS9 era would mention the Defiant having the same name as Empress Sato's Defiant.
My guess is that the knowledge of an alternate reality universe would have been either kept under wraps by Starfleet due to some longstanding rule regarding deployment details (OpSec is very much a real thing) or the much less realistic but much more hilarious notion that all of Kirk's side adventures were quietly shelved and filed away by some bureaucrat who read the logs and said "My GOD what a storyteller!"
Things I want in STO:
1) More character customization options such as more clothing options, letting the toon complexion affect the entire body, not just the head. Also a true RGB color picker applied to all costume and appearance options, which would allow for true appearance customization and homogenous colors instead of "this same exact color looks vastly different on two different pieces."
2) Bridge customization, not bridge packs. Let us pick a general layout and adjust the color palette, console appearance, and chair types, as well as more ready room layout options.
3) Customizable ground weapons, i.e. The aesthetic look of phaser dual pistols but they shoot antiproton bolts. For obvious reasons this would only apply to standard ground weapons.
4) For the love of Q please revamp Plasma Ground Weapons. They look like demented Supersoakers right now.
5) True Vanity Impulse and Deflector effects similar to Vanity Shields.
6) A greater payout for hitting T6 Reputations. Currently it takes more time and resources to get from T5 to T6 than it does to get from nothing to T5. Make that grind really pay out at the end.
7) Mirrorverse Refugee event similar to AoY/Delta/Gamma, complete with new Mirrorverse recruits for all factions.
8) Independent Faction, because yo ho yo ho a pirate's life for me!
I meant that I find it odd none of the DS9 era mirror universe characters ever mention Sato's Defiant when building their version of Sisko's Defiant
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I understand the real world reasons, but in-universe it is a bit odd
Like shadowfang said, Sato's Defiant didn't exist in the 90s. The real world reason, trumps the in-universe's ability to be internally rationalized through mental convolutions. Unless you're willing to accept a rationale like I suggested: That the information simply wouldn't be as widely known to the denizens of that reality. We, as viewers, know A Lot which the characters do not... Imposing the need for them to have the same knowledge, and trying to criticize that they don't, is rather silly...
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
My character Tsin'xing
One of my opinions that I have mentioned a few times before is that Discovery is set 100 years after Enterprise and not 10 years before TOS due to the Temporal Cold War TRIBBLE up Enterprise's future. So the events in TOS, TNG, DS9, and Voyager no longer exist. It is the Prime Universe, but not the same timeline. The timeline shown in the first few episodes of TOS is not the same as the timeline in Nemesis.
A possible way to explain the Mirror Universe's technology discrepancy between TOS and Discovery is that the Emperor heavily controls the technology. Without her authorization, the technology doesn't work. So the advanced technology caused by the Defiant arriving 100 years earlier is rendered useless due to the future actions in Discovery and the Terran Empire has to use less advanced ships.
The Defiant is heavily classified so it is possible that all information on the Defiant was lost between Discovery and DS9. Then there is the fact that Emperor Georgiou wiped out the majority of people that heard about parallel universe due to its information polluting the Empire.
As for the Defiant, it's either the launch configuration ~2245 (suggested by the fact it has 'USS' next to the name) or it's showing the Terran modifications (backed up by the writers comments).
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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How it got there is classified, but even the rebels are aware of it's existence though (the memory core that gave the Discovery crew the basic info on it came from a rebel ship, remember). Mirror Kira said that Kirk's name was incredibly important in their history books and everyone knew his name, wouldn't the USS Defiant be equally important to their history? As I said before, I like to think of this as a second, separate mirror universe, hopefully one where the Empire never falls.
Long live the Empire!
I agree, this isn't the same Mirror Universe as was seen before(becauseDiscoveryisn'tthesametimelineasbefore
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
https://trekmovie.com/2018/01/28/review-star-trek-discovery-spins-its-greatest-hits-in-whats-past-is-prologue/
It looks like some time travel will be involved in Discovery since there is no evidence of the Klingons winning a war against the Federation.
No, but I know the name of the Imperial Roman army and the Panzerkampfwagen III. There's a bit of a difference between a toiletry item and a key element in the success of an entire military.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
There are a lot of different ships named Enterprise and the Terran Empire's history might have a lot of ships named Defiant. Also, there is the fact that the fact that the USS Defiant is a Federation ship is heavily classified according to Emperor Georgiou. The rebel ship computers knew that the USS Defiant came from a parallel universe. The Terran Empire network knew that the USS Defiant used Interspace. Only the Emperor seemed to know that the USS Defiant came from the Federation. If all the Emperor's classified files were on the ISS Charon, then chances are that all the classified information about Sato's Defiant is permanently lost. So there is no way that people from the 24th Century Mirror Universe would determine the connection between the USS Defiant and Sato's Defiant.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I suspect it'll be a situation where the crew of the Discovery remembers all the events of this season, including those they change, rather than a complete reset of the timeline.