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The Intrepid-class is a warship with banned weapons!
oliviaclaire
Member Posts: 158 Arc User
[Original post title: The Intrepid-class is a warship, not a science vessel!]
Canonical reference
VOY: "The Thaw"
According to this line of dialogue, not only is the Intrepid-class a warship, but it also was not built for long-range missions. It's ironic that the ship was called Voyager.
By contrast, STO describes it as a long-range science vessel, while Memory Alpha: Intrepid-class describes it as a long-range explorer. The main reason for this conclusion seems to be a line of dialogue from VOY: "Someone to Watch Over Me":
However, the Intrepid-class background information is a much closer match to being built for combat performance:
In fact, the very first mission that the USS Voyager is engaged in is a military-type operation, as seen in VOY: "Caretaker":
That's definitely not a "long-term exploration" or a "long-range science" type of mission.
Starship classification
Memory Alpha: Warship
This is a close [perfect] match to being built for combat performance.
Memory Alpha: Science vessel
The Intrepid-class is not listed as one of them.
If Star Trek insists that the Intrepid-class is a long-range explorer, then it could only mean one thing: Starfleet exploration vessels are warships.
Do you realize how ridiculous of an episode VOY: "Living Witness" is now?
Explorers with a vessel built for combat performance, also known as a warship.
Update: A perfect match
Scratch the "close" match, it is a perfect match! The wording may be slightly different between "built for combat performance" and "designed for combat" but the meaning is exactly the same.
Update: Definition of a warship
Dictionary: Warship
Update: Named after a real warship
Memory Alpha: USS Bellerophon (Intrepid-class) background information
Retcon / Supersession
Conflicting statements do not necessarily equal supersession. They could simply mean that different writers or directors didn't conduct proper research or that they disagree. This is why the class' original description as "built for action", when combined with "built for combat performance" and being armed for combat purposes, makes the Intrepid-class a warship by definition. That, plus being named after a real warship in the case of the USS Bellerophon.
Update: The Intrepid-class is a light cruiser (warship)
Memory Alpha: Light cruiser
Wikipedia: Light cruiser
Memory Alpha: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual
A reference book plus canon make the Intrepid-class a warship.
Update: The Intrepid-class armaments
Memory Alpha: Intrepid-class phaser systems
Memory Alpha: Phaser array
Memory Alpha: Intrepid-class torpedo systems
Banned weapons
The tricobalt devices and spatial charges can be used as subspace weapons, which were banned under the Khitomer Accord.
Star Trek: Insurrection
It's canon.
Update: They still cannot explain it!
VOY: "The Voyager Conspiracy"
Even to this day, they failed to explain it.
Canonical reference
VOY: "The Thaw"
PARIS: This ship was built for combat performance, Harry, not musical performance. Nobody figured we'd be taking any long trips.
According to this line of dialogue, not only is the Intrepid-class a warship, but it also was not built for long-range missions. It's ironic that the ship was called Voyager.
By contrast, STO describes it as a long-range science vessel, while Memory Alpha: Intrepid-class describes it as a long-range explorer. The main reason for this conclusion seems to be a line of dialogue from VOY: "Someone to Watch Over Me":
NEELIX: Voyager's an Intrepid class starship with a crew of one hundred and forty six, designed for long-term exploration. I thought we'd start with a tour of our primary systems. First stop, Engineering.
However, the Intrepid-class background information is a much closer match to being built for combat performance:
In the first draft script of VOY: "Caretaker" (dated 8 June 1994), the Intrepid-class was referred to as "a sleek bullet of a ship, built for action, capable of holding a crew compliment of one hundred and twenty-five."
In fact, the very first mission that the USS Voyager is engaged in is a military-type operation, as seen in VOY: "Caretaker":
JANEWAY: I'm leaving on a mission to find a Maquis ship that disappeared in the Badlands a week ago.
PARIS: I wouldn't if I were you.
JANEWAY: Really?
PARIS: I've never seen a Federation starship that could manoeuvre through the plasma storms.
JANEWAY: You've never seen Voyager. We'd like you to come along.
PARIS: You'd like me to lead you to my former colleagues. I was only with the Maquis a few weeks before I was captured, Captain. I don't know where most of their hiding places are.
JANEWAY: You know the territory better than anyone we've got.
PARIS: What's so important about this particular Maquis ship?
JANEWAY: My Chief of Security was on board, undercover. He was supposed to report in twice during the last six days. He didn't.
PARIS: I wouldn't if I were you.
JANEWAY: Really?
PARIS: I've never seen a Federation starship that could manoeuvre through the plasma storms.
JANEWAY: You've never seen Voyager. We'd like you to come along.
PARIS: You'd like me to lead you to my former colleagues. I was only with the Maquis a few weeks before I was captured, Captain. I don't know where most of their hiding places are.
JANEWAY: You know the territory better than anyone we've got.
PARIS: What's so important about this particular Maquis ship?
JANEWAY: My Chief of Security was on board, undercover. He was supposed to report in twice during the last six days. He didn't.
That's definitely not a "long-term exploration" or a "long-range science" type of mission.
Starship classification
Memory Alpha: Warship
In starship classification, a warship, war vessel, or combat vessel was a generic term for any armed starship designed for combat. These vessels included battleships, battle cruisers, various sized cruisers, escorts, and destroyers.
This is a close [perfect] match to being built for combat performance.
Memory Alpha: Science vessel
In starship classification, a science vessel (or research vessel) was a limited-role starship. It was not well armed, but instead carried several laboratories, advanced sensors, and in some cases, advanced deflector shields. Ships of this class were used for scientific research missions, such as observing the collapse of a star, mapping newly discovered planets and nebulae, or simply being an isolated location for hazardous experiments. Most science vessels were not designed for long term missions.
The Intrepid-class is not listed as one of them.
If Star Trek insists that the Intrepid-class is a long-range explorer, then it could only mean one thing: Starfleet exploration vessels are warships.
Do you realize how ridiculous of an episode VOY: "Living Witness" is now?
EMH: Voyager wasn't a warship. We were explorers.
Explorers with a vessel built for combat performance, also known as a warship.
Update: A perfect match
Scratch the "close" match, it is a perfect match! The wording may be slightly different between "built for combat performance" and "designed for combat" but the meaning is exactly the same.
Update: Definition of a warship
Dictionary: Warship
[A] ship built or armed for combat purposes.
Update: Named after a real warship
Memory Alpha: USS Bellerophon (Intrepid-class) background information
"Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" writer Ronald D. Moore named the Bellerophon after the HMS Bellerophon, a British warship which served as part of a fleet commanded by Lord Nelson in the early 19th century.
Retcon / Supersession
Conflicting statements do not necessarily equal supersession. They could simply mean that different writers or directors didn't conduct proper research or that they disagree. This is why the class' original description as "built for action", when combined with "built for combat performance" and being armed for combat purposes, makes the Intrepid-class a warship by definition. That, plus being named after a real warship in the case of the USS Bellerophon.
Update: The Intrepid-class is a light cruiser (warship)
Memory Alpha: Light cruiser
According to the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual, the Saber-class was also classified as a light cruiser, as was the Intrepid-class. During the Dominion War a variant type of light cruiser was built from an Intrepid-class primary hull.
Wikipedia: Light cruiser
A light cruiser is a type of small- or medium-sized warship. The term is a shortening of the phrase "light armored cruiser", describing a small ship that carried armor in the same way as an armored cruiser: a protective belt and deck.
Memory Alpha: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual
Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual is a reference book that contains technical information about the milieu of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. Written from an entirely in-universe point of view. . . .
A reference book plus canon make the Intrepid-class a warship.
Update: The Intrepid-class armaments
Memory Alpha: Intrepid-class phaser systems
[A] total ship's complement of fourteen phaser arrays. [. . .] Additional phaser banks included at least four separate phaser emitters. . . .
The Intrepid-class model only has thirteen discernible phaser arrays, with the large array strips being the same type-10 phaser arrays used by Galaxy-class starships, according to Rick Sternbach. Other phaser emitter locations were seen in "Think Tank", "Unimatrix Zero", "Prophecy", "Resolutions", and "Dragon's Teeth".
The Intrepid-class model only has thirteen discernible phaser arrays, with the large array strips being the same type-10 phaser arrays used by Galaxy-class starships, according to Rick Sternbach. Other phaser emitter locations were seen in "Think Tank", "Unimatrix Zero", "Prophecy", "Resolutions", and "Dragon's Teeth".
Memory Alpha: Phaser array
A phaser array is a devastating weapon comprised of an arrangement of phaser emitters located in strategic areas of a starship, space station, or other vessel. In the 23rd century, phaser arrays had smaller numbers of emitters, and were commonly referred to as phaser banks. (TOS: "The Corbomite Maneuver", "Balance of Terror") By the 24th century, Starfleet began to fit its vessels and facilities with phaser arrays that contained much larger numbers of emitters. . . .
Memory Alpha: Intrepid-class torpedo systems
The Intrepid-class housed five standard torpedo launchers (two fore and two aft, and one on the ventral side of the ship). The USS Voyager was loaded with type-6 photon torpedoes in 2371. The ship also had class-9 and at least four class-10 photon torpedoes and two tricobalt devices in her torpedo arsenal. (VOY: "Caretaker", "Resolutions", "Scorpion, Part II", "In the Flesh", "Bliss")
In addition, the ship also carried spatial charges, that could also be used as subspatial charges to cause subspace disturbance. There were also photon charges and photon bursts. The ship also had gravimetric charges, that could be installed into photon torpedoes, turning them into extremely destructive gravimetric torpedoes. . . .
In addition, the ship also carried spatial charges, that could also be used as subspatial charges to cause subspace disturbance. There were also photon charges and photon bursts. The ship also had gravimetric charges, that could be installed into photon torpedoes, turning them into extremely destructive gravimetric torpedoes. . . .
Banned weapons
The tricobalt devices and spatial charges can be used as subspace weapons, which were banned under the Khitomer Accord.
Star Trek: Insurrection
DANIELS: They've detonated an isolytic burst. A subspace tear is forming.
RIKER: On screen.
PERIM: I thought subspace weapons were banned by the Khitomer Accord.
RIKER: Remind me to lodge a protest.
[. . .]
LAFORGE: Detonating the warp core might neutralise the cascade, but then again it might not. Subspace weapons are unpredictable. That's why they were banned.
RIKER: On screen.
PERIM: I thought subspace weapons were banned by the Khitomer Accord.
RIKER: Remind me to lodge a protest.
[. . .]
LAFORGE: Detonating the warp core might neutralise the cascade, but then again it might not. Subspace weapons are unpredictable. That's why they were banned.
It's canon.
Update: They still cannot explain it!
VOY: "The Voyager Conspiracy"
SEVEN: The Captain ordered Commander Tuvok to destroy the array. He fired two tricobalt devices. Are those weapons normally carried on Federation Starships?
CHAKOTAY: No.
SEVEN: Yet they were part of Voyager's arsenal. Why?
CHAKOTAY: I can't explain that.
CHAKOTAY: No.
SEVEN: Yet they were part of Voyager's arsenal. Why?
CHAKOTAY: I can't explain that.
Even to this day, they failed to explain it.
Post edited by oliviaclaire on
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Starfleet's ships are generally multi-role, the Constitution was usually considered on screen an even match for a Klingon D7, and it's was also an exploration vessel.
The Defiant is so scary because it's a single-role warship versus Starfleet usually building to fill its defense and scientific obligations. The same features for long-range exploration (high endurance at high warp speed) also makes it a good fleet scout.
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What you forgot, oliviaclaire, is that the STO is set in 2400s. USS Voyager's journey showed what the Intrepid was capable of beyond her original role. So in the years after (in the STO timeline), Starfleet started to tweak the Class toward that new role and re-designated it as a long range science vessel.
Seriously though, what does it mater what is said in the shows or on screen. The STO ships often bare little resemblance to what happened on screen, they are put in categories because the game needs the that way to function.
I mean you mentioned the Defiant, yeah its a pure warship. So why does it need any science bridge officers? Why does it need sci consoles?
The new Nebula is another example, it has temporal spec seating, why? The only thing we every really saw it do was be part of a detection grid for cloaked ships, so it's essentially an AWAC, why does it not have intel spec seating?
BOP's in STO can be run as anything (sci, tac, eng) thanks to the mass uni seating, but that makes no sense as surely they are only ever shown to be warships onscreen?
There's many other examples but trawling through pages of show scripts and websites to find evidence they made the ship wrong doesn't really help the situation.
[Edit to add] But as is the way with canon, new, surplants and supercedes old...
Starfleet tried to send a ship for peaceful exploration with no shields, not many weapons and the idea that being prepared to fight was counter-productive and non-sense. It was in the 22nd century... and we all know how that went.
"If you want peace, prepare for war". Especially after encountering Xindi, Temporal terrorists, Klingons, Romulans, Borg and Dominion.
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No. The Intrepid was always designed as a Long Range Exploration vessel, just as was the Galaxy Class! In every game I have ever played that featured the Intrepid it has always been classed as a Long Range (Exploration) vessel. Also, Starfleet wouldn't equip a short range vessel with it's most advanced Warp Engine (9.975) and Bio-Neural Circuits. However, Starfleet's ethos on conflict is 'Our starships are not designed to start wars, but to finish them'. Starfleet ships are all designed to have defensive capability in mind, so as to allow time for other ships to arrive and assist in conflicts. In canon there are actually very few 'offensive minded' ships (Defiant, Sovereign, Norway, Akira etc.). Also, Starfleet's primary role IS exploration. Seeing the amount of unknown, on top of all the conflicts that have happened, it makes logical sense to equip ANY exploration vessel, travelling into the unknown, with the highest quality of equipment possible, with it being able to defend itself for an extended period, where it maybe out of contact with Starfleet, as highlighted so with Voyager!
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He says the ship was "designed for combat performance, not musical performance." He's not saying it's a "warship"; he's saying it's not a musical instrument. Context is important, especially when you want to contribute to one of olivia's paranoid rants.
Antonine, the issue here is that olivia apparently has permission to start as many of these silly threads as she likes, in all the subforums where they don't belong, and never receive so much as a thread-closing or a slap on the wrist in response from the "moderators". (You should see the one where she claims the US is an Evil Empire, and thus the same must be true of its descendant the Federation, because of the shape of a building at the Coronado naval base in California.)
I generally agree, but I like to point out that the Sovereign, Norway and Akira ships were not "designed for combat" any more than every other ship class. Just because they are featured in action scenes does not mean that is all they do - it wouldn't make sense to assume otherwise.
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Note how Paris merely says "designed for combat performance" not something like "exclusively designed to fight".
From Memory Alpha: Emphasis on "per se".
Handheld phasers are designed to be able to disintegrate things, but Starfleet officers are recommended to use them to stun, rather than kill, rather than disintegrate.
Not according to the canon... I don't really care what every game has said, because none of them are canon, merely licensed product. The canon references (the early canon references) were that the Intrepid Class was designed for combat performance... It can't be stated any more plainly, or from a more direct source, so if you're going to ignore canon, then there's not really any point in discussing it, because you're only then discussing opinions, rather than canon citations... As I said, the later canon does try and retcon the Intrepid as a science vessel, but what was originally said, although it has indeed been superceded, is still worth being aware of and bearing in mind
I'm not saying the Intrepid class is a pure science vessel, per se, but it ain't a pure combat vessel either. It has typical phasers and torpedos similar to the galaxy class, which is exploration. This is in contrast to two ships where a character literally said that this ship was meant for war or combat, The Vengeance and Defiant. And both of those sported improved defensive and offensive capabilities beyond that which is found on the majority of other ships.
I can agree with the concept of exploration, though. This is just my opinion.
Sorry, brother, but just look at the interior of Voyager. That ain't no combat vessel.
As far as STO designating it a science vessel, I'm fine with that. I'm ok with looking at it as a science vessel that has some defensive qualities.
For the scope of this game, there isn't enough of a difference between exploration vs science for me to care what it's label is. And since I needed a science vessel, I'm much happier having this fill my science slot than a most of the other ones.
Absolutely, he wasn't saying that it's a warship, but he did say 'designed for combat performance'... A ship which is designed for combat performance, is clearly intended to be used in combat roles, rather than pure research and diplomacy...
And sure, I'm not totally drinking the Kool-Aid (That's for force-feeding Klingons Polaron-Style
Given Olivia's apparent total lack of sanctions for the Conspiracy Threads, I'm coming to my own theory: She's a moderator's alt
Only in the closed Station of psychiatry.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
They aren't mutually exclusive and, having seen Star Trek before
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People have a highly skewed vision of ship classes in Star Trek. Whenever something is designated as a "warship" many people suddenly jump to the conlcusion it could end empires on it's own. A simple interceptor is also a "warship" of sorts, it doesn't say anything about it's performance, since "warship" isn't a classification.
The intrepid, for all intends and purposes, is a interceptor/excort/destroyer - it is in function pretty much the equivalent of a Klingon Bird of Prey. On the battlefield it'd match those or the Jem'Hadar attack ships. She was designed to fight Borg - but that doesn't mean a Defiant tears through cubes. When fighting Borg, Starfleet lost cruisers with large crew compartiments while causing relatively little damage. Defiants came with less crew and packed more weapons for their size so a pack of them could evade and stay int he fight against a cube longer while minimizing losses. The Defiant, as @nightken pointed out, never took on anything in the cruiser weightclass on her own, safe the Mirror Negh'Var flagships and that was a kind of goofy moment. The Dfiant/Sao Paolo didn't fare to well in heavy combat against cruisers, one was destroyed and the Sao Paolo was heavily crippled when facing a cube as the only Defiant class on site.
If we take the Technical Manual as a supplemental source, Defiants were cosnidered mobile weapon platforms (after the initial Borg design was canned) and were supposed to up a station's defensive arsenal over Runabouts. A Runabout also has quite the combat capability for it's size and could even hope to take at least a few hits before desintegrating, but tht doesn't make them ideal fighter swarms or something.
Bottom line is, one can't throw "warship" on the table and expect to win. That doesn't say anything. A Galaxy class is a Explorer for Starfleet but also a prime "warship" if need be since she will bolster Starfleet's line-up in a state of war.
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