OK, all joking aside, I can see the point lordsteve1 is making above. Liberty ships in WW2 had guns, but were not main combatants.
Still I think going back to TOS, and the Technical Manual we can see the inherent military aspect of all the designs. General Order 24 is a thing. The main difference between a Hermes and a Constitution in carrying out that order is probably time based. If it takes a Connie a day, lets say it takes Hermie four days. Both might be expected to do that mission though, so even though the emphasis might vary for each ship class, at the end of the day they are both science ships, and war ships at the same time.
The distinction after that is political. Explorers are more acceptable to Federation tax payers than battle ships would be, so for that purpose none of them are warships. When the Borg show up, all of them are warships, and we just don't brag about that detail to the tax payers. It also helps explain why 'we' get slaughtered at Wolf 359. They are science ships.
Last thing; The ships are whatever the writers say they are for this episode, or even just this scene, so this can't really be a discussion that ends with a decisive result.
Memory Alpha is a bit more than a wiki and is being used by Star Trek script writers as a reference guide, much like the Star Trek Encyclopedia has been in the past (which is also being revised and released in 2016).
This is a bit more believable than your average wiki, and it curated by serious people who take the information seriously. And is why the OP quoted Memory Alpha in the first place. The OP just ignored the very first sentences of the same page she quoted.
It's absolutely identical to every other wiki. It's littered with unsourced statements and speculation presented as fact, it has groups of editors resistant to attempts to change articles from their version, favoured licensed publications given credence over canon or presented as canon.
It's canon policy even differs from the official CBS version for do discernable reason.
Unless a sentence has a little blue number in square brackets at the end pointing to the episode or film the information comes from, it is to be taken for what it most likely is, an opinion piece.
Explorers with a vessel built for combat performance, also known as a warship.
By 1982 the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) treaty negotiations had produced a legal definition of what was then generally accepted as a late-twentieth century warship. The UNCLOS definition was : "A warship means a ship belonging to the armed forces of a State bearing the external marks distinguishing such ships of its nationality, under the command of an officer duly commissioned by the government of the State and whose name appears in the appropriate service list or its equivalent, and manned by a crew which is under regular armed forces discipline."
And Starfleet isn't a military force at least according to its own propaganda
Yeah...uh huh. And who did the Federation call when the fit hit the shan? Sure as hell wasn't the Federation Navy.
Because that dosn't exist. Starfleet undertakes the Federations defence. That is not the same as being a military. As you well know as we went over this whole sorry affair back in the last thread of spam the OP produced.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
@artan42 impossible! Someone said "fire weapons". Check your encyclopaedia, weapons are used by the military! Boom.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Can't, neither the ship nor warlord janeway ever existed, they were a figment of an alien historian's imagination, in the far future well beyond the 25th century.
In addition to what saurializard about other universes (it is well known that not all alternate Federations are peaceful, after all), the canon Galaxy-X was only seen in a timeline created (and then presumably erased) by Q. Didn't stop it from finding it's way into the game.
Even if it is a timeline created by Q and maybe destroyed by Q, Captain Picard did see the Galaxy-X and likely filed a report on his experiences. Some ship designer found Picard's report and decided to use it to create the Galaxy-X. Although since the ship is based off of a report instead of detailed scans, then there is likely a few differences between STO's Galaxy-X and TNG's Galaxy-X. After all, there might be a few major features of the Galaxy-X that Picard didn't see.
What part of the game lore mentions Picard being briefed on the ship? Because the Z-Store doesn't even attempt to justify the design. It's just... there.
I'd be curious how it even resembles the Q-created one, considering Picard never really got a good look at the outside and isn't exactly the sort who reads tech manuals for fun.
Because Captain Logs are part of the job of being Captain so there is a report in the Prime Universe detailing Picard's adventures in All Good Things including Anti-Time and the improved Enterprise-D. Chances are that the report is classified and locked up in the Department of Temporal Investigations' vault, but it would still exist. The report on the improved Enterprise-D likely involved it had 3 nacelles, a cloak, and an extremely powerful phaser weapon.
The only other methods involve Q or the alternate version of the Enterprise-D visited the STO Universe since it is marketed as an alternate reality version of the Enterprise-D from the All Good Things episode. If we can get the Dauntless based on detailed scans done by Voyager, then we can get the Galaxy-X from a few lines in one of Picard's reports.
I'm just going to fly into this thread without bothering to read much of it, because y'all talk too much, and YOLO.
The Intrepid class was a light explorer, where the Galaxy class was simply an explorer, or maybe a heavy explorer. The Intrepid was designed to do everything the Galaxy could do, just on a smaller scale and for a shorter period of time. This all translates poorly in game, where Intrepid becomes a science ship because there aren't enough of them and the ship class trinity fits well with the three spinoff shows, and the Galaxy goes from a mobile starbase to an immobile one.
And, I hesitate to bring it up, but if you are designing a combat ship it will either be like the Defiant, which is expected to go back to port regularly (like end-of-the-day, if you survive, regularly), or it would have a much larger sickbay than the Intrepid had.
@artan42 impossible! Someone said "fire weapons". Check your encyclopaedia, weapons are used by the military! Boom.
My gods! You're right. I'm firing all my blueshirts out of the airlock tonight. Only the finest space marine/ninjas for my Ambassador.
Do you think that if I fire my blueshirts at another ship it'll count as having even more weapons?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
It would have been nice if Cryptic went with Combat (Defiant), Exploration (Constitution, Galaxy, Intrepid), and Trading (Freighter) ships for the three classes of ship instead of going with the standard MMO classes of DPS, Tank, and Support. However, this is the game we got and all ships have to be forced into one of those three classes.
Ok sure thats why the guys who created Memory Alpha are in the credits for Star Trek Beyond & they created the name of the element used to make the medalion Spock gave Uhura.
And? How does that invalidate any of my criticisms of it? As long as the articles are sourced then use it, otherwise learn how to ignore editor bias.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
You can call Voygaer a warship if you want. Most of starfleet ships, outside of a few like Oberth and/or the one with a ball-head are quite armed.
So if anyone that thought they had a easy prey, but only ended up with a bloodied noise and some shattered ribs are complaining about feds are flying warships let them.
Post edited by k20vtec on
Hast thou not gone against sincerity
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
Read it somwhere on the thread, couldnt find it so:
THe timeline where gal-x appearead was erased by Q!?
Hast thou not gone against sincerity
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
I'd be curious how it even resembles the Q-created one, considering Picard never really got a good look at the outside and isn't exactly the sort who reads tech manuals for fun.
He's a ship Captain. He was in an advanced ship. You don't get made Captain for your ability to sip Earl Grey Tea. As with real life military officers, the job would entail a whole lot of reading and study. What? You thought army Colonels and Generals got promoted to their positions for... What? Long time service?
I'd be curious how it even resembles the Q-created one, considering Picard never really got a good look at the outside and isn't exactly the sort who reads tech manuals for fun.
He's a ship Captain. He was in an advanced ship. You don't get made Captain for your ability to sip Earl Grey Tea. As with real life military officers, the job would entail a whole lot of reading and study. What? You thought army Colonels and Generals got promoted to their positions for... What? Long time service?
Or nepotism depending on the military. Brown nosing is also another method of promotion. However, the Federation should be beyond those types of promotion.
"Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" writer Ronald D. Moore named the Bellerophon after the HMS Bellerophon, a British warship which served as part of a fleet commanded by Lord Nelson in the early 19th century.
Retcon / Supersession
Conflicting statements do not necessarily equal supersession. They could simply mean that different writers or directors didn't do a proper research or that they disagree. This is why the class' original description as "built for action", when combined with "built for combat performance" and being armed for combat purposes, makes the Intrepid-class a warship by definition. That, plus being named after a real warship in the case of the USS Bellerophon.
The Galaxy-class is a battleship
Remember how in TNG: "The Enemy" Picard states that his ship was "ready to fight" with "extremely powerful and destructive arsenal" (note "extremely") against a warbird? That falls under being "armed for combat purposes", which, by definition, makes the Galaxy-class a warship.
In TNG: "Conundrum", when the crew of the USS Enterprise loses their memories, the Galaxy-class Enterprise-D is described as a battleship, based on the ship's specifications:
WORF: I have completed a survey of our tactical systems. We are equipped with ten phaser banks, two hundred and fifty photon torpedoes, and a high capacity shield grid. MACDUFF: We're a battleship. WORF: It appears so.
While Worf did not volunteer the description, he essentially agreed with it.
[A]ny of a class of warships that are the most heavily armored and are equipped with the most powerful armament.
This is further proof that Starfleet is a military organization.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
The point is for Olivia to get off on seeing replies to her thread, whether they're negative, positive or neutral, knowing she wrote her conspiracy theories in a way the mods can't shut them down and ban her for, because technically she's not breaking any rule.
This discussion is just ridiculous. We have ship classes as cruiser escorts and science ships. These are game mechanics, just as we have character classes. It belongs to the game system, the RPG genre. Our ships are in most cases huge, like stadiums. Could they be fitted for a scientific mission? Why not. Think of one of the U.S. Navy carriers. Can they perform as scientific task, an exploration mission? Sure, there is space enough to accomodate scientific personel. They can launch airplanes not to bomb something but to view and make photos, reconnaissance. Could you do with less? Absolutely.
Now you go there where no man has gone before. Do you need some armour and weapons, because that other life might not like you and the ship hull is the only thing between you and ....
This first a game, with its systems. It can't be a simulation for reality or the realities of the shows.
OK, all joking aside, I can see the point lordsteve1 is making above. Liberty ships in WW2 had guns, but were not main combatants.
Still I think going back to TOS, and the Technical Manual we can see the inherent military aspect of all the designs. General Order 24 is a thing. The main difference between a Hermes and a Constitution in carrying out that order is probably time based. If it takes a Connie a day, lets say it takes Hermie four days. Both might be expected to do that mission though, so even though the emphasis might vary for each ship class, at the end of the day they are both science ships, and war ships at the same time.
The distinction after that is political. Explorers are more acceptable to Federation tax payers than battle ships would be, so for that purpose none of them are warships. When the Borg show up, all of them are warships, and we just don't brag about that detail to the tax payers. It also helps explain why 'we' get slaughtered at Wolf 359. They are science ships.
Last thing; The ships are whatever the writers say they are for this episode, or even just this scene, so this can't really be a discussion that ends with a decisive result.
Qapla'!
So true. Ent-D was the most powerful ship in the fleet when it was built. but it wasn't a "warship".
Explorers with a vessel built for combat performance, also known as a warship.
By 1982 the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) treaty negotiations had produced a legal definition of what was then generally accepted as a late-twentieth century warship. The UNCLOS definition was : "A warship means a ship belonging to the armed forces of a State bearing the external marks distinguishing such ships of its nationality, under the command of an officer duly commissioned by the government of the State and whose name appears in the appropriate service list or its equivalent, and manned by a crew which is under regular armed forces discipline."
And Starfleet isn't a military force at least according to its own propaganda
Yeah...uh huh. And who did the Federation call when the fit hit the shan? Sure as hell wasn't the Federation Navy.
just because they fight every war the UFP has ever had doesn't make them military! it say so on the side of Starfleet HQ!!
please note these posts are dripping in sarcasm
It's not becoming canon reality no matter how often you repost variations of "Starfleet is a military lolzor" when the material you are talking about says otherwise. Fan-fiction all you want, it's never becoming canon reality
EDIT: This discussion has been held countless times already. Please let's not do this again.
I know its canon and they keep going back and saying it over and over and over in all the various series. Yet they respond to any and all military threats and wars and police actions, in addition to more civilian duties like disaster relieft, exploration, scienctific studies, etc. It's just really hard to imagine the U.S. Coast Guard being responsible for National Defense, and that's basically the parallel Roddenberry himself drew as to what Starfleet is.
Starfleet is both military, and exploratory!
And yes, even brilliant scientist can't agree on which is it's main function is.
David Marcus:
" I've tried to tell you before. Scientists have always been pawns of the military."
Carol Marcus:
"Starfleet has kept the peace for a hundred years. I cannot and will not subscribe to your interpretation of this event."
Starfleet Captains can make decisions that not only risk war, but are in fact open declarations of war. This;
Captain James T. Kirk:
"Lt. Uhura, inform Command Base: In my opinion, no option. On my responsibility we are proceeding into the Neutral Zone."
and this exchange:
Anan 7:
"Enterprise, this is Anan 7, first councilman of the High Council of Eminiar. We hold your captain, his party, your ambassador and his party prisoners. Unless you immediately start transportation of all personnel aboard your ship to the surface, the hostages will be killed. You have thirty minutes. I mean it, Captain."
Captain James T. Kirk:
"All that it means is that I won't be around for the destruction. You heard me give general order 24. That means in two hours the Enterprise will destroy Eminiar 7."
Anan 7:
"Planetary defense system, open fire on the Enterprise!"
Planetary Disruptor Bank Officer:
"I'm sorry, councilman, the target has moved out of range." -break-
Scott:
"Open a channel, Lieutenant. This is the commander of the U.S.S. Enterprise. All cities and installations on Eminiar 7 have been located, identified, and fed into our fire control system. In one hour and forty-five minutes, the entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed. You have that long to surrender your hostages."
Notes; Garth of Izar gave that order once, but was mentally unfit, so it was not followed. Still why does that order exist? Maintaining the illusion that Starfleet isn't at least partly military, they pretend there is no Section 31.
"Starfleet is not a military organisation. It is a scientific research and diplomatic body.
Although the duties of the Enterprise may include some military responsibilities, the primary purpose of the Enterprise — as with all Starfleet vessels is to expand the body of human knowledge."
In Star trek Roddenberry's word is the 'word of god'.
In Roddenberry's mind 'the military' does not exist in Federation space. Instead the power to take actions that used to be defined as 'military' now belongs to (by default) the best armed organization available. As the need to take such action was deemed inescapably pragmatic, then Starfleet adapted rules up to and including General Order 24 to cover everything from being a space ambulance, to being the flagship in a total intergalactic war.
But then ... The Klingons call their own ships and warriors a 'Defense Force'. What is that saying? Oh yeah. 'The best defence is a good offense'.
I will commit to the following position; Starfleet is not supposed to be 'the' military irrespective of the fact it acts as 'a' military when required. Roddenberry says they aren't, and he makes the laws in this 'jurisdiction. In another jurisdiction the law might see it differently. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_burden_of_proof
So Starfleet, by legal technicality, is not the military, but have fun storming the castle.
Last thing. I could define myself as a 'military force' and make a case for it. It doesn't make that my primary job.
Qapla'!
I just remembered that a previous post of mine, some time back was supposed to be my 'last thing'. This is almost the absolute definition of a 'burning house'.
'She reminds me of the 'doomsday machine'. look at all this rubble.
Canonically, the Constitution-class (or, as Roddenberry originally called them, Starship-class) were "heavy cruisers", a designation implying the existence of other classes of cruiser (despite the fact that none were seen on screen). By the time of TNG, one can reasonably assume that a) the average size of ships, and thus the designation of "heavy", had increased; and b) the Galaxy-class was still regarded as a cruiser.
Used primarily for deep-space exploration (despite Picard's proclivity for hanging around "civilized" space), the Galaxys carried sufficient armament to defend themselves in the event of running across a new Klingon Empire (or, for that matter, a resurgence of the Romulan Star Empire); however, their primary mission was not the execution of a war. Thus, they were not war ships, any more than a Coast Guard cutter with a bow-mounted .50-cal machine gun (more than sufficient to make its point with anything this side of a for-real warfighter) is a "warship".
As for a point, olivia doesn't typically have one, no.
Canonically, the Constitution-class (or, as Roddenberry originally called them, Starship-class) were "heavy cruisers", a designation implying the existence of other classes of cruiser (despite the fact that none were seen on screen). By the time of TNG, one can reasonably assume that a) the average size of ships, and thus the designation of "heavy", had increased; and b) the Galaxy-class was still regarded as a cruiser.
Used primarily for deep-space exploration (despite Picard's proclivity for hanging around "civilized" space), the Galaxys carried sufficient armament to defend themselves in the event of running across a new Klingon Empire (or, for that matter, a resurgence of the Romulan Star Empire); however, their primary mission was not the execution of a war. Thus, they were not war ships, any more than a Coast Guard cutter with a bow-mounted .50-cal machine gun (more than sufficient to make its point with anything this side of a for-real warfighter) is a "warship".
As for a point, olivia doesn't typically have one, no.
She should be weaponized! Part of me loves watching this! Part of me is filled with horror! What is wrong with me?
Starfleet is both military, and exploratory!
And yes, even brilliant scientist can't agree on which is it's main function is.
David Marcus:
" I've tried to tell you before. Scientists have always been pawns of the military."
Carol Marcus:
"Starfleet has kept the peace for a hundred years. I cannot and will not subscribe to your interpretation of this event."
But don't worry as Starfleet personnel have a much better idea what their own organisation is.
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
In Star trek Roddenberry's word is the 'word of god'.
Neither the encyclopedia nor Roddenberry's mind are canon. However the fact that Starfleet is a non-military organisation is canon. In explicit black and white.
Believe me artan even if I had never learned to ignore obvious bias I would have learned it conversing with you long ago.
Statements you don't agree with backed up with canon evidence=bias. Okaydokay.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Starfleet is both military, and exploratory!
And yes, even brilliant scientist can't agree on which is it's main function is.
David Marcus:
" I've tried to tell you before. Scientists have always been pawns of the military."
Carol Marcus:
"Starfleet has kept the peace for a hundred years. I cannot and will not subscribe to your interpretation of this event."
But don't worry as Starfleet personnel have a much better idea what their own organisation is.
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
In Star trek Roddenberry's word is the 'word of god'.
Neither the encyclopedia nor Roddenberry's mind are canon. However the fact that Starfleet is a non-military organisation is canon. In explicit black and white.
Believe me artan even if I had never learned to ignore obvious bias I would have learned it conversing with you long ago.
Statements you don't agree with backed up with canon evidence=bias. Okaydokay.
I think that the "Writers and Directors guide" decides what 'should be' canon. It explains what they want canon to look like. That makes it a perfectly reasonable source for saying that Starfleet isn't officially military, wasn't meant to be military, and that the producers will not buy stories written in a way that takes to much away from that vision. In that spirit, the Dominion War should never have made it onto the screen. The producers failed.
As far as canon from on screen, there is no other military available to the Federation. The actions they routinely take make them a military as far as modern English is concerned, and being able to issue a genocidal order from a Captains chair pretty much makes any other contrary statement, by any other character, an accepted self delusion.
I'll allow another possible explanation for what appears to be well intentioned hypocrisy. There would have to be a literal change in the actual meaning of the spoken language, so that 'military' is defined differently. There is precedent for such changes in meaning in real life, so I could accept that argument.
I guess another acceptable reason to pretend that they aren't in every way a military arm, is that when they claim to be a non-military organization, this is a form of 'self talk'. A psychological prop to keep them from using military force to freely. The same sort of 'self talk' might be used in modern 'peacekeeping' operations, where we deploy military units to go and 'not' do military things. It doesn't change what they are, only how they are used.
Putting it bluntly, if you punch someone in the face, and say it was non-violent, over and over again, how convincing is it really? Especially after you punch a number of other people in the face, and every time it is 'non-violent? I don't even care if you had a good reason for your alleged non-violence. Maybe in a hundred years that sort of thing won't be called violence?
I take the position that they are not supposed to be military. The words they use to describe themselves are an ideal, not a reality. The intention of the creators of the franchise are to be taken seriously when they say 'Starfleet is not a military organization', however that intention fails in execution. No amount of spoken canon, can defend against the more violently destructive on screen 'cannon' displayed on a regular basis. No amount of spoken canon can negate the fact that Starfleet is organized and trained to make military deployments, with military grade gear capable of killing whole worlds.
All you can do (imho) is accept that like many great and visionary ideas, the reality does not live up to the dream. This whole thread is a no-win scenario, and we can't change the conditions of this test.
I think you are scoring points artan42, and I actually would consider myself to be on your side. I can't ignore what doesn't work about the non-military argument though. I don't know what else to say. I guess it depends on what your definition of 'is' is.
Starfleet is both military, and exploratory!
And yes, even brilliant scientist can't agree on which is it's main function is.
David Marcus:
" I've tried to tell you before. Scientists have always been pawns of the military."
Carol Marcus:
"Starfleet has kept the peace for a hundred years. I cannot and will not subscribe to your interpretation of this event."
But don't worry as Starfleet personnel have a much better idea what their own organisation is.
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
In Star trek Roddenberry's word is the 'word of god'.
Neither the encyclopedia nor Roddenberry's mind are canon. However the fact that Starfleet is a non-military organisation is canon. In explicit black and white.
Believe me artan even if I had never learned to ignore obvious bias I would have learned it conversing with you long ago.
Statements you don't agree with backed up with canon evidence=bias. Okaydokay.
Oh come on Star Trek flip flops what is canon almost episode to episode, or must I bring up that god awful episode from TNG about warp drive destroying the fabric of space and ships being limited in warp speed unless in an emergency which gets completely tossed about 2 episodes later?
I said it best once upon a time. Starfleet is the US Navy absorbing the NASA role. Plain and simple.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
Comments
Still I think going back to TOS, and the Technical Manual we can see the inherent military aspect of all the designs. General Order 24 is a thing. The main difference between a Hermes and a Constitution in carrying out that order is probably time based. If it takes a Connie a day, lets say it takes Hermie four days. Both might be expected to do that mission though, so even though the emphasis might vary for each ship class, at the end of the day they are both science ships, and war ships at the same time.
The distinction after that is political. Explorers are more acceptable to Federation tax payers than battle ships would be, so for that purpose none of them are warships. When the Borg show up, all of them are warships, and we just don't brag about that detail to the tax payers. It also helps explain why 'we' get slaughtered at Wolf 359. They are science ships.
Last thing; The ships are whatever the writers say they are for this episode, or even just this scene, so this can't really be a discussion that ends with a decisive result.
Qapla'!
It's absolutely identical to every other wiki. It's littered with unsourced statements and speculation presented as fact, it has groups of editors resistant to attempts to change articles from their version, favoured licensed publications given credence over canon or presented as canon.
It's canon policy even differs from the official CBS version for do discernable reason.
Unless a sentence has a little blue number in square brackets at the end pointing to the episode or film the information comes from, it is to be taken for what it most likely is, an opinion piece.
Because that dosn't exist. Starfleet undertakes the Federations defence. That is not the same as being a military. As you well know as we went over this whole sorry affair back in the last thread of spam the OP produced.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Because Captain Logs are part of the job of being Captain so there is a report in the Prime Universe detailing Picard's adventures in All Good Things including Anti-Time and the improved Enterprise-D. Chances are that the report is classified and locked up in the Department of Temporal Investigations' vault, but it would still exist. The report on the improved Enterprise-D likely involved it had 3 nacelles, a cloak, and an extremely powerful phaser weapon.
The only other methods involve Q or the alternate version of the Enterprise-D visited the STO Universe since it is marketed as an alternate reality version of the Enterprise-D from the All Good Things episode. If we can get the Dauntless based on detailed scans done by Voyager, then we can get the Galaxy-X from a few lines in one of Picard's reports.
The Intrepid class was a light explorer, where the Galaxy class was simply an explorer, or maybe a heavy explorer. The Intrepid was designed to do everything the Galaxy could do, just on a smaller scale and for a shorter period of time. This all translates poorly in game, where Intrepid becomes a science ship because there aren't enough of them and the ship class trinity fits well with the three spinoff shows, and the Galaxy goes from a mobile starbase to an immobile one.
And, I hesitate to bring it up, but if you are designing a combat ship it will either be like the Defiant, which is expected to go back to port regularly (like end-of-the-day, if you survive, regularly), or it would have a much larger sickbay than the Intrepid had.
My gods! You're right. I'm firing all my blueshirts out of the airlock tonight. Only the finest space marine/ninjas for my Ambassador.
Do you think that if I fire my blueshirts at another ship it'll count as having even more weapons?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
And? How does that invalidate any of my criticisms of it? As long as the articles are sourced then use it, otherwise learn how to ignore editor bias.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
So if anyone that thought they had a easy prey, but only ended up with a bloodied noise and some shattered ribs are complaining about feds are flying warships let them.
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
THe timeline where gal-x appearead was erased by Q!?
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
He's a ship Captain. He was in an advanced ship. You don't get made Captain for your ability to sip Earl Grey Tea. As with real life military officers, the job would entail a whole lot of reading and study. What? You thought army Colonels and Generals got promoted to their positions for... What? Long time service?
Or nepotism depending on the military. Brown nosing is also another method of promotion. However, the Federation should be beyond those types of promotion.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
Now you go there where no man has gone before. Do you need some armour and weapons, because that other life might not like you and the ship hull is the only thing between you and ....
This first a game, with its systems. It can't be a simulation for reality or the realities of the shows.
My character Tsin'xing
Starfleet is both military, and exploratory!
And yes, even brilliant scientist can't agree on which is it's main function is.
David Marcus:
" I've tried to tell you before. Scientists have always been pawns of the military."
Carol Marcus:
"Starfleet has kept the peace for a hundred years. I cannot and will not subscribe to your interpretation of this event."
Starfleet Captains can make decisions that not only risk war, but are in fact open declarations of war. This;
Captain James T. Kirk:
"Lt. Uhura, inform Command Base: In my opinion, no option. On my responsibility we are proceeding into the Neutral Zone."
and this exchange:
Anan 7:
"Enterprise, this is Anan 7, first councilman of the High Council of Eminiar. We hold your captain, his party, your ambassador and his party prisoners. Unless you immediately start transportation of all personnel aboard your ship to the surface, the hostages will be killed. You have thirty minutes. I mean it, Captain."
Captain James T. Kirk:
"All that it means is that I won't be around for the destruction. You heard me give general order 24. That means in two hours the Enterprise will destroy Eminiar 7."
Anan 7:
"Planetary defense system, open fire on the Enterprise!"
Planetary Disruptor Bank Officer:
"I'm sorry, councilman, the target has moved out of range."
-break-
Scott:
"Open a channel, Lieutenant. This is the commander of the U.S.S. Enterprise. All cities and installations on Eminiar 7 have been located, identified, and fed into our fire control system. In one hour and forty-five minutes, the entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed. You have that long to surrender your hostages."
Notes; Garth of Izar gave that order once, but was mentally unfit, so it was not followed. Still why does that order exist? Maintaining the illusion that Starfleet isn't at least partly military, they pretend there is no Section 31.
On the flip side consider the underlined text near the bottom of Page 39 of this document;
http://leethomson.myzen.co.uk/Star_Trek/2_The_Next_Generation/Star_Trek_-_The_Next_Generation_Bible.pdf
Although the duties of the Enterprise may include some military responsibilities, the primary purpose of the Enterprise — as with all Starfleet vessels is to expand the body of human knowledge."
In Star trek Roddenberry's word is the 'word of god'.
In Roddenberry's mind 'the military' does not exist in Federation space. Instead the power to take actions that used to be defined as 'military' now belongs to (by default) the best armed organization available. As the need to take such action was deemed inescapably pragmatic, then Starfleet adapted rules up to and including General Order 24 to cover everything from being a space ambulance, to being the flagship in a total intergalactic war.
But then ... The Klingons call their own ships and warriors a 'Defense Force'. What is that saying? Oh yeah. 'The best defence is a good offense'.
I will commit to the following position; Starfleet is not supposed to be 'the' military irrespective of the fact it acts as 'a' military when required. Roddenberry says they aren't, and he makes the laws in this 'jurisdiction. In another jurisdiction the law might see it differently. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_burden_of_proof
So Starfleet, by legal technicality, is not the military, but have fun storming the castle.
Qapla'!
Gol'durn time loops ...
Qapla'!
Qapla'!
I just remembered that a previous post of mine, some time back was supposed to be my 'last thing'. This is almost the absolute definition of a 'burning house'.
'She reminds me of the 'doomsday machine'. look at all this rubble.
Used primarily for deep-space exploration (despite Picard's proclivity for hanging around "civilized" space), the Galaxys carried sufficient armament to defend themselves in the event of running across a new Klingon Empire (or, for that matter, a resurgence of the Romulan Star Empire); however, their primary mission was not the execution of a war. Thus, they were not war ships, any more than a Coast Guard cutter with a bow-mounted .50-cal machine gun (more than sufficient to make its point with anything this side of a for-real warfighter) is a "warship".
As for a point, olivia doesn't typically have one, no.
She should be weaponized! Part of me loves watching this! Part of me is filled with horror! What is wrong with me?
Qapla'!
But don't worry as Starfleet personnel have a much better idea what their own organisation is.
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.'
Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.'
Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!'
Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.'
Scotty: Beyond
Literally nobody is suggesting that Starfleet do not undertake military matters, simply that they aren't a military.
Neither the encyclopedia nor Roddenberry's mind are canon. However the fact that Starfleet is a non-military organisation is canon. In explicit black and white.
Statements you don't agree with backed up with canon evidence=bias. Okaydokay.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
I think that the "Writers and Directors guide" decides what 'should be' canon. It explains what they want canon to look like. That makes it a perfectly reasonable source for saying that Starfleet isn't officially military, wasn't meant to be military, and that the producers will not buy stories written in a way that takes to much away from that vision. In that spirit, the Dominion War should never have made it onto the screen. The producers failed.
As far as canon from on screen, there is no other military available to the Federation. The actions they routinely take make them a military as far as modern English is concerned, and being able to issue a genocidal order from a Captains chair pretty much makes any other contrary statement, by any other character, an accepted self delusion.
I'll allow another possible explanation for what appears to be well intentioned hypocrisy. There would have to be a literal change in the actual meaning of the spoken language, so that 'military' is defined differently. There is precedent for such changes in meaning in real life, so I could accept that argument.
I guess another acceptable reason to pretend that they aren't in every way a military arm, is that when they claim to be a non-military organization, this is a form of 'self talk'. A psychological prop to keep them from using military force to freely. The same sort of 'self talk' might be used in modern 'peacekeeping' operations, where we deploy military units to go and 'not' do military things. It doesn't change what they are, only how they are used.
Putting it bluntly, if you punch someone in the face, and say it was non-violent, over and over again, how convincing is it really? Especially after you punch a number of other people in the face, and every time it is 'non-violent? I don't even care if you had a good reason for your alleged non-violence. Maybe in a hundred years that sort of thing won't be called violence?
I take the position that they are not supposed to be military. The words they use to describe themselves are an ideal, not a reality. The intention of the creators of the franchise are to be taken seriously when they say 'Starfleet is not a military organization', however that intention fails in execution. No amount of spoken canon, can defend against the more violently destructive on screen 'cannon' displayed on a regular basis. No amount of spoken canon can negate the fact that Starfleet is organized and trained to make military deployments, with military grade gear capable of killing whole worlds.
All you can do (imho) is accept that like many great and visionary ideas, the reality does not live up to the dream. This whole thread is a no-win scenario, and we can't change the conditions of this test.
I think you are scoring points artan42, and I actually would consider myself to be on your side. I can't ignore what doesn't work about the non-military argument though. I don't know what else to say. I guess it depends on what your definition of 'is' is.
Good posting with you.
Qapl'!
Oh come on Star Trek flip flops what is canon almost episode to episode, or must I bring up that god awful episode from TNG about warp drive destroying the fabric of space and ships being limited in warp speed unless in an emergency which gets completely tossed about 2 episodes later?
I said it best once upon a time. Starfleet is the US Navy absorbing the NASA role. Plain and simple.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1