Oh, as for her initial mission not being "long-range exploration" - it's called a "shakedown cruise". You want the new ship's first mission or two to be near enough that if she gets into trouble, she can issue an emergency call with some expectation it'll be answered before life support goes away.
Of course, during her first mission she was hit by an anomaly that suddenly made her the longest-range exploration vessel in Starfleet history, but it's not like they had planned for that.
Paris said that Voyager was built for combat performance...
That's all there is to it... It's not saying that it couldn't ever do anything else, but it is saying what it was originally built for...
It specifically being Tom Paris, the ship's helmsman...
Here's more of the quote in question:
KIM: Sorry!
PARIS: Obviously, Ensign Baytart doesn't appreciate music.
KIM: It's the darn fluid conduits running through the walls. They conduct sound. You'd think when they designed this thing, they would have
PARIS: This ship was built for combat performance, Harry, not musical performance. Nobody figured we'd be taking any long trips.
KIM: Where am I supposed to practice?
PARIS: How about the cargo bay?
KIM: Bad acoustics.
PARIS: We could get Baytart transferred to the night shift.
KIM: We couldn't do that. Could we?
PARIS: So now you have an excuse to give your mother why you didn't practice while you were gone.
KIM: Look, I'm trying to prepare for an important performance.
Remember: context. Was this a dissertation on the design of the Intrepid class? No, it was one guy trying to informally explain why their ship doesn't have the best acoustics. He was NOT comparing its relative combat capability to its scientific capabilities.
BTW, here's the very next scene:
KIM: EM signature indicates that a major solar flare occurred here nineteen years ago.
NEELIX: I'd say about nineteen years, more or less.
CHAKOTAY: Looks like a glacial freeze.
JANEWAY: Caused by a solar flare that radically changed the weather patterns.
KIM: It did a lot more than that. They were hit by magnetic storms and extreme levels of radiation.
CHAKOTAY: Those glaciers are receding.
KIM: The biosphere seems to be recovering.
Informally or otherwise, the information was still being delivered, by someone who is unquestionably an expert in the field... It may have been off the cuff, but it's still canon, and still valid...
Like I said, I'm not totally drinking Olivia's Kool-Aid; I'm not buying the premise that Voyager was a warship, but I certainly accept the premise that the Intrepid Class (according to Paris) was build for combat performance, and the examples of the Badlands and Romulus missions, certainly lend support to the notion of them being deployed to potential/probabl combat zones, as does the sustainable cruise velocity -- they need to get where they're going fast to get the job done... I'd hypothesize the original intent, from those examples, as possibly being a high-speed interceptor...
PARIS: This ship was built for combat performance, Harry, not musical performance. Nobody figured we'd be taking any long trips.
According to this line of dialogue, not only is the Intrepid-class a warship, but it also was not built for long-range missions. It's ironic that the ship was called Voyager.
By contrast, STO describes it as a long-range science vessel, while Memory Alpha: Intrepid-class describes it as a long-range explorer. The main reason for this conclusion seems to be a line of dialogue from VOY: "Someone to Watch Over Me":
NEELIX: Voyager's an Intrepid class starship with a crew of one hundred and forty six, designed for long-term exploration. I thought we'd start with a tour of our primary systems. First stop, Engineering.
In the first draft script of VOY: "Caretaker" (dated 8 June 1994), the Intrepid-class was referred to as "a sleek bullet of a ship, built for action, capable of holding a crew compliment of one hundred and twenty-five."
In fact, the very first mission that the USS Voyager is engaged in is a military-type operation, as seen in VOY: "Caretaker":
JANEWAY: I'm leaving on a mission to find a Maquis ship that disappeared in the Badlands a week ago. PARIS: I wouldn't if I were you. JANEWAY: Really? PARIS: I've never seen a Federation starship that could manoeuvre through the plasma storms. JANEWAY: You've never seen Voyager. We'd like you to come along. PARIS: You'd like me to lead you to my former colleagues. I was only with the Maquis a few weeks before I was captured, Captain. I don't know where most of their hiding places are. JANEWAY: You know the territory better than anyone we've got. PARIS: What's so important about this particular Maquis ship? JANEWAY: My Chief of Security was on board, undercover. He was supposed to report in twice during the last six days. He didn't.
That's definitely not a "long-term exploration" or a "long-range science" type of mission.
In starship classification, a warship, war vessel, or combat vessel was a generic term for any armed starship designed for combat. These vessels included battleships, battle cruisers, various sized cruisers, escorts, and destroyers.
This is a close match to being built for combat performance.
In starship classification, a science vessel (or research vessel) was a limited-role starship. It was not well armed, but instead carried several laboratories, advanced sensors, and in some cases, advanced deflector shields. Ships of this class were used for scientific research missions, such as observing the collapse of a star, mapping newly discovered planets and nebulae, or simply being an isolated location for hazardous experiments. Most science vessels were not designed for long term missions.
The Intrepid-class is not listed as one of them.
If Star Trek insists that the Intrepid-class is a long-range explorer, then it could only mean one thing: Starfleet exploration vessels are warships.
You claimed seventy canon statements, so kindly list them, or STFU
Here's an exact line from "Someone to Watch Over Me."
Voyager's an Intrepid class starship with a crew of one hundred and forty six, designed for long-term exploration. I thought we'd start with a tour of our primary systems. First stop, Engineering.
I can't imagine that you need any more clarification than that. But if you do, you may simply want to log off and watch the series again (since the nature of Voyager was a strong theme throughout the run of the series). It may be more helpful to discover the obvious for yourself, rather than fighting those who are trying to explain it for you. Living Witness may be a good place to start, since it's about fighting the portrayal of Voyager as a combat-focused vessel.
pJANEWAY: This is Captain Janeway of the warship Voyager. Break off your attack, or I'll destroy you.
pTUVOK: They are not responding.
.....
QUARREN: Halt recreation. This is a reasonable extrapolation from historic record. But if you'd like to point out any inconsistencies.
EMH: Inconsistencies? I don't know where to begin. Granted, this looks like the briefing room but these aren't the people I knew. No one behaved like this. Well, aside from Mister Paris. We weren't at each other's throats. We didn't talk about how to destroy planets. We helped people. We were an enlightened crew.
QUARREN: Are you denying these events took place?
EMH: Yes.
QUARREN: Are you saying you never got involved with the conflict between my people and the Vaskans?
EMH: Yes! Well, no, we did get involved, but it was nothing like this.
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The phrase "built for combat performance" does not necessarily indicate that the design intent focused on that as its' primary mission.
It could be an educated opinion, like "Mustangs are built for speed".
It could be that combat performance was indeed one (not necessarily the only) of the design goals.
We can word chop on this or any other ST topic all day.
Voyager was clearly built with exploration as at least part of its' design intent (planetary landings).
It was captained by a Starfleet officer whose primary non-command interest was science and who often described herself as a scientist. Not necessarily an iron-clad mandate, but certainly a strong factor in considering what Voyager's mission was.
Voyager spent a considerable amount of time exploring the Delta Quadrant even to the point of the occasional detour to examine anomalies.
Cryptic chose to classify it as a science vessel. The ship classification model has come under fire repeatedly in the past, so I won't deny that people might legitimately disagree with the classification. But they did it and they're not going to change it. So in the end we are having a debate that has zero bearing on what goes on in the game. Enjoy the debate if you choose, even criticize Cryptic for their choices, but in the end this is moot.
This statement at the end is where proof of the pudding lies. Cryptic has to run STO content by CBS and CBS's canon. If CBS had objected to the Intrepid being a Science Vessel, then the Intrepid would be classified as something else. It's classification therefore is correct, despite what Paris (who was in prison when the Intrepid were made. He also had no idea about that Class of ship) said, which was his own opinion, not Starfleet's. The thing is, it's because of it's high-warp and Bio-Neural circuits that enables Tom to say the ship is build for 'combat-performance', however, as I previously stated, the ship is designated as a Long Range Explorer, which by proxy means that it would have naturally an extensive Scientific Suite, just as was true on the Galaxy Class. When Astrometrics was improved on by Seven and Kim, that furthered it's capability.
And as I pointed out above: Paris was an expert in ships, and from what was later revealed, someone who clearly read a lot. It's hardly a stretch to believe that, once he took over as flight officer, he would have researched the history of the Intrepid Class to bring himself up to speed...
As above, yes, it is Now classified as a science vessel, and New Canon supersedes Old canon... I'm not buying the claim that Voyager was a warship, but I do consider it a reasonable statement that it was built with combat missions in mind...
All Starfleet ships have some combat in mind.. Just like when they designed the Galaxy Class to be the first ship that has a phaser beam array along it's ENTIRE saucer. Instead of the system seen on Excelsior.. Constitution etc. Or the shorter strips on the Ambassador class.
The Galaxy was the first ship to have phaser strips litteraly all over, not having a "blind splot" except up really close to the hull..
So all Starfleet ships have combat stuff.
What Paris ment is that when they designed the Intrepid, they focused more on things like combat than musical performance.
It was clearly an off the cuff remark, but equally it can't be just ignored and dismissed solely as such, because there was likely truth in the statement...
I'm not engaging strawmen...
Then why are you choosing to subscribe to the OP?
The line pulled is clearly out of context. Move onto the very next scene and you find dialog that directly contradicts your highly selective point. Do you want to try reconciling that? Of course not, because what you've based everything on is a strawman argument. Pull this one fiber away and what do you have? Nothing. It's no less than a central theme throughout the run of the Star Trek series that Starfleet is both a military and an exploration organization. Finding a way to carry out the organization's primary mission while still being combat capable is something that every single series faced. Enterprise even based multiple episodes on this subject (ex. Silent Enemy).
So the fact that "being built for combat" (even if taken at face value, which a number of people have tried to explain for your benefit that you can't do in this situation) means nothing to the designation of the Intrepid class (in STO) as a science vessel (given the overall thesis of Starfleet). As I first posted, the only criterion for that (in the franchise) is "having the capability to do science." That's literally what "Science Vessel" means. Everything else is presumptive. Starfleet vessels were almost all science vessels of one kind or another. And more to the point, throughout the 7 seasons of Voyager we saw that ship was exceptional in that role and its fighting prowess was most frequently attributed to the higher level of Starfleet technology compared to local species, not the specific design of the Intrepid class (they weren't even carrying that many torpedoes originally.)
Still, it was an effective ship all around. However, in STO we can't acknowledge that multi-faceted fact in single ship descriptors. Categories have to be assigned so players can easily sort through their available choices. On balance what we saw the Intrepid class do was primarily exploration. So of the choices we have, it gets pigeon holed as a "science vessel." Voyager was a combat capable ship, and that fact was discussed at times, but it would be dismissive to the run of VOY, DS9, and First Contact to say its intended role was analogous to other vessels which have been designated as "Escorts" in STO.
Here are the facts. They support a (mostly) comprehensive counter-argument to the few statements you've made. You are free to walk away from them, but considering them may be substantially more helpful to you.
As above: I'm not buying the claim that Voyager was a warship, but I do consider it a reasonable statement that the Intrepids were built with combat missions in mind...
You claimed seventy canon statements, so kindly list them, or STFU
Here's an exact line from "Someone to Watch Over Me."
Voyager's an Intrepid class starship with a crew of one hundred and forty six, designed for long-term exploration. I thought we'd start with a tour of our primary systems. First stop, Engineering.
I can't imagine that you need any more clarification than that. But if you do, you may simply want to log off and watch the series again (since the nature of Voyager was a strong theme throughout the run of the series). It may be more helpful to discover the obvious for yourself, rather than fighting those who are trying to explain it for you. Living Witness may be a good place to start, since it's about fighting the portrayal of Voyager as a combat-focused vessel.
pJANEWAY: This is Captain Janeway of the warship Voyager. Break off your attack, or I'll destroy you.
pTUVOK: They are not responding.
.....
QUARREN: Halt recreation. This is a reasonable extrapolation from historic record. But if you'd like to point out any inconsistencies.
EMH: Inconsistencies? I don't know where to begin. Granted, this looks like the briefing room but these aren't the people I knew. No one behaved like this. Well, aside from Mister Paris. We weren't at each other's throats. We didn't talk about how to destroy planets. We helped people. We were an enlightened crew.
QUARREN: Are you denying these events took place?
EMH: Yes.
QUARREN: Are you saying you never got involved with the conflict between my people and the Vaskans?
EMH: Yes! Well, no, we did get involved, but it was nothing like this.
Oh, as for her initial mission not being "long-range exploration" - it's called a "shakedown cruise". You want the new ship's first mission or two to be near enough that if she gets into trouble, she can issue an emergency call with some expectation it'll be answered before life support goes away.
Of course, during her first mission she was hit by an anomaly that suddenly made her the longest-range exploration vessel in Starfleet history, but it's not like they had planned for that.
Was the mission to run down Chakotay actually Voyager's shakedown, or was it simply the first time we saw her?
As above: I'm not buying the claim that Voyager was a warship, but I do consider it a reasonable statement that the Intrepids were built with combat missions in mind...
So were the NX, Galaxy, and Constitution classes. Combat is part of the service of most Starfleet vessels. Presumably, they're all built with that in mind, it's basic to premise of the series. Where I think the point stops is saying that the Intrepid was built more with combat missions in mind. Besides Tom Paris explaining how Voyager wasn't a music hall (and similar out-of-context lines), there's nothing to suggest that it's primary mission was ever combat oriented. While the Defiant was equipped with ablative armor and pulse cannons, the Intrepid class had exceptional sensor arrays, a high warp cruising velocity, and no particular abundance of torpedo tubes or phaser beam arrays (they seem only to be on par for a ship of its size).
That can still be useful for certain missions (ex. simply finding a single Maquis raider), but considering the fact that this is Starfleet what those qualities probably translate to first and foremost is long range, independent exploration (with a smaller vessel than the traditional big cruiser, ie. Galaxy and Sovereign).
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As above: I'm not buying the claim that Voyager was a warship, but I do consider it a reasonable statement that the Intrepids were built with combat missions in mind...
So were the NX, Galaxy, and Constitution classes. Combat is part of the service of most Starfleet vessels. They're all built with that in mind, it's basic to premise of the series. Where I think the point stops is saying that the Intrepid was built more with combat missions in mind. Besides Tom Paris explaining how Voyager wasn't a music hall, there's nothing to suggest that it's primary mission was ever combat oriented. While the Defiant was equipped with ablative armor and pulse cannons, the Intrepid class had exceptional sensor arrays, a high warp cruising velocity, and no particular abundance of torpedo tubes or phaser beam arrays (they seem only to be on par for a ship of its size).
That can still be useful for certain missions (ex. simply finding a single Maquis raider), but considering the fact that this is Starfleet what those qualities translate likely to first and foremost is long range, independent exploration.
Hell even the Nova class if you look up her technical specs is pretty heavily armed for how small she is and supposed to be a replacement for the Oberth class.
Were Federation ships exploration ships? Yeah, but they also had to double as combat ships considering since Voyager went missing, how many major and minor wars has the Federation fought at that point?
Kinda need ships that can do it all.
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As above: I'm not buying the claim that Voyager was a warship, but I do consider it a reasonable statement that the Intrepids were built with combat missions in mind...
So were the NX, Galaxy, and Constitution classes. Combat is part of the service of most Starfleet vessels. Where I think the point stops is saying that the Intrepid was built more with combat missions in mind. Besides Tom Paris explaining how Voyager wasn't a music hall, there's nothing to suggest that it's primary mission was ever combat oriented. While the Defiant was equipped with ablative armor and pulse cannons, the Intrepid class had exceptional sensor arrays, a high warp cruising velocity, and no particular abundance of torpedo tubes or phaser beam arrays.
That can still be useful for certain missions (ex. simply finding a single Maquis raider), but considering the fact that this is Starfleet what those qualities translate likely to first and foremost is long range, independent exploration (hence why the concept of the Voyager series worked).
As I said; The Badlands mission: I doubt that Mad Kathy thought she was going to bring Chakotay in with an offer of coffee, or stern words... The mission of the Bellerophon to Romulus: A situation which could quite easily have headed south fast, so a definite 'show of restrained-strength' on the part of the Federation, rather sending a fifty-year old Excelsior, or any of the above-mentioned a**-whoopers like an Akira, a Sovereign, a Prometheus or Defiant... A very plausible calculation, from an in-verse perspective... And, as mentioned, the sustainable cruise velocity: Something designed to get where it's needed fast... Also, the pounding it took in Year of Hell, and kept going... Sure, the fancy stuff may have been gone, but the core capabilities of the ship remained, and she was able to not just defend herself, but actively keep fighting...
Those things all point to the Intrepid Class being built with engagements in mind and initially deployed thus... Once they find out what they can really do, sure, call it a science ship... And like Mad Kathy's going to say 'welcome aboard my warship... Be my friend, or I'll blow you out of the sky...' of course it's going to be introduced nicey-nicey to foreign dignitaries
I think the strangest thing about this thread was I was actually starting to miss the weekly conspiracy theory.
Strike that, the strangest thing about this thread is that ANYBODY thinks Star Trek episodes add up to some sort of coherent setting. This is seat of your pants episodic writing with less than a day left before you must start shooting and Voyager would be amongst the worst, with things like plainly stated limited stores of torpedoes at the outset to create some dramatic tension... and absolutely willy-nilly expenditure of those torpedoes because the writers literally could not give a damn to check their own series bible. All they knew how to write was LCD Star Trek where we're all too civilized to have money and you never run out of anything... for more than 40 minutes.
But really this particular conspiracy falls way short of the mark... Voyager is a warship? DUH. Almost all Federation ships we've seen other than a few tugs would be classed as warships by any sane civilization.
Hell even the Nova class if you look up her technical specs is pretty heavily armed for how small she is and supposed to be a replacement for the Oberth class.
I've pulled open the Starship Spotter book for a simple (reasonable and franchise certified) run-down of ship armaments.
Nova Class:
11 Type X Beam Arrays
2 Photon Torpedo launchers
Intrepid Class:
11 Type X Beam Arrays
4 Photon Torpedo Launchers
This is at least as much firepower as the Galaxy and Nebula have (though I think having more beam arrays just amounts to maintaining coverage area across an irregular hull), but compared to the contemporaries:
Akira:
6 Type X Beam Arrays 15 Photon Torpedo Launchers
Sovereign+Prometheus:
12 Type XII Beam Arrays
3 Quantum Torpedo Launchers
It was a point in the later series that Starfleet was taking combat more seriously in their starship design (as a reaction to the Dominion War and Borg invasion). But this raises the standard for all major starships. The Intrepid is combat capable, but the role it serve in the fleet is still primarily exploration based. The authors put it the following way: (which basically sums up the run of Star Trek: Voyager and the Bellerophon's appearance.)
"One of a series of newer and more compact ships, the Intrepid-class was designed to be a fast multi-mission starship primarily intended for exploration, survey, and courier missions. A fast vessel with advanced sensing and research capability, the Intrepid-class makes for an effective exploratory platform, while at the same time carrying sufficient armament to act as a combat vessel."
Those things all point to the Intrepid Class being built with engagements in mind and initially deployed thus... Once they find out what they can really do, sure, call it a science ship...
Or that it was originally designed as a capable deep space exploration vessel (with sufficient combat capabilities), and while they had them on hand the Admiralty may as well send them out on limited assignments (no point in wasting a resource.) That's much more in keeping with what we know, what's been said about the Intrepid class, and where we saw them used (ex. not in major combat during the Dominion War). It's reaching to say that (like the Defiant and Akira) the Intrepid was built first as a combat vessel and then co-opted for exploration.
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
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Hell even the Nova class if you look up her technical specs is pretty heavily armed for how small she is and supposed to be a replacement for the Oberth class.
I've pulled open the Starship Spotter book for a simple (reasonable and franchise certified) run-down of ship armaments.
Nova Class:
11 Type X Beam Arrays
2 Photon Torpedo launchers
Intrepid Class:
11 Type X Beam Arrays
4 Photon Torpedo Launchers
This is more firepower than the Galaxy and Nebula have, but compared to its contemporaries:
Akira:
6 Type X Beam Arrays 15 Photon Torpedo Launchers
Sovereign+Prometheus:
12 Type XII Beam Arrays
3 Quantum Torpedo Launchers
It was a point in the later series that Starfleet was taking combat more seriously in their starship design (as a reaction to the Dominion War and Borg invasion). But this raises the standard for all major starships. The Intrepid is combat capable, but the role it serve in the fleet is still primarily exploration based. The authors put it the following way: (which basically sums up the run of Star Trek: Voyager and the Bellerophon's appearance.)
"One of a series of newer and more compact ships, the Intrepid-class was designed to be a fast multi-mission starship primarily intended for exploration, survey, and courier missions. A fast vessel with advanced sensing and research capability, the Intrepid-class makes for an effective exploratory platform, while at the same time carrying sufficient armament to act as a combat vessel."
Those things all point to the Intrepid Class being built with engagements in mind and initially deployed thus... Once they find out what they can really do, sure, call it a science ship...
Or that it was originally designed as a capable deep space exploration vessel (with sufficient combat capabilities), and while they had them on hand the Admiralty may as well send them out on limited assignments (no point in wasting a resource.) That's much more in keeping with what we know, what's been said about the Intrepid class, and where we saw them used (ex. not in major combat during the Dominion War). It's reaching to say that (like the Defiant and Akira) the Intrepid was built first as a combat vessel and then co-opted for exploration.
Only problem, is that even though that is franchise certified, it's still not canon... The author's thoughts are just that: The author's thoughts...
You'refree to disagree with me all you like, but I think I have more than explained my position, rather than having to keep reiterating it just because you don't share it...
Thread started earlier today and already is at 4 pages holy nut muffins!
Why do all of you INSIST on falling for Olivias crazy thread troll bait? Is it the hottie bajoran girl avatar? You cant really think that what "she" looks like do you?
Would you beleive that i am really a human being and not some animal?
You mean it's not...?? Oh man, catfished again!!!! >_<
Only problem, is that even though that is franchise certified, it's still not canon... The author's thoughts are just that: The author's thoughts...
You're free to disagree with me all you like, but I think I have more than explained my position, rather than having to keep reiterating it just because you don't share it...
All I'll say then is that I've also been citing canon throughout this discussion. In my response to you I specifically stayed with canon. The guide book was just a fun way of expanding discussion with stats (which presumably come from just counting the hull elements on CG models) for another poster. You've blithely disregarded every canon example that hasn't agreed with you and reiterated the same, original point as if that alone was sufficient proof to throw into a multi-person conversation (ie. forum back and forth)."
If all you want to say is "to each his own, this is what I've got to say" do start with that idea and leave it there. Other people (ex. me) like to have discussions. For example, expanding on "Intrepid-class could act as a combat ship" with an explanation that "it wasn't mainly a combat ship." That's not a refutation, that's developing the idea to come to the most reasonable assessment possible. It's not that big of a deal, but for Trekkies this kind of talk can be interesting.
To that end, it doesn't really help if you speak up, have your time, and only later say that you never really wanted to participate in the first place (you just wanted to have your say, to hell with everyone else.) Often that just results in ego smashing (as what you wanted was just your say, free of the quibbles from other people. Why can't they, as you put it, "STFU?"), and we can do better.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Hell even the Nova class if you look up her technical specs is pretty heavily armed for how small she is and supposed to be a replacement for the Oberth class.
I've pulled open the Starship Spotter book for a simple (reasonable and franchise certified) run-down of ship armaments.
Nova Class:
11 Type X Beam Arrays
2 Photon Torpedo launchers
Intrepid Class:
11 Type X Beam Arrays
4 Photon Torpedo Launchers
This is at least as much firepower as the Galaxy and Nebula have (though I think having more beam arrays just amounts to maintaining coverage area across an irregular hull), but compared to the contemporaries:
Akira:
6 Type X Beam Arrays 15 Photon Torpedo Launchers
Sovereign+Prometheus:
12 Type XII Beam Arrays
3 Quantum Torpedo Launchers
It was a point in the later series that Starfleet was taking combat more seriously in their starship design (as a reaction to the Dominion War and Borg invasion). But this raises the standard for all major starships. The Intrepid is combat capable, but the role it serve in the fleet is still primarily exploration based. The authors put it the following way: (which basically sums up the run of Star Trek: Voyager and the Bellerophon's appearance.)
"One of a series of newer and more compact ships, the Intrepid-class was designed to be a fast multi-mission starship primarily intended for exploration, survey, and courier missions. A fast vessel with advanced sensing and research capability, the Intrepid-class makes for an effective exploratory platform, while at the same time carrying sufficient armament to act as a combat vessel."
Those things all point to the Intrepid Class being built with engagements in mind and initially deployed thus... Once they find out what they can really do, sure, call it a science ship...
Or that it was originally designed as a capable deep space exploration vessel (with sufficient combat capabilities), and while they had them on hand the Admiralty may as well send them out on limited assignments (no point in wasting a resource.) That's much more in keeping with what we know, what's been said about the Intrepid class, and where we saw them used (ex. not in major combat during the Dominion War). It's reaching to say that (like the Defiant and Akira) the Intrepid was built first as a combat vessel and then co-opted for exploration.
Again, I go back to my point of the Federation started building ships that could do the exploration job, but if a war arose they were not using severely under armed ships to fight that war. Which if you think about it, makes sense.
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Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
Only problem, is that even though that is franchise certified, it's still not canon... The author's thoughts are just that: The author's thoughts...
You're free to disagree with me all you like, but I think I have more than explained my position, rather than having to keep reiterating it just because you don't share it...
All I'll say then is that I've also been citing canon throughout this discussion. You've just blithely disregarded every example used and reiterated the same, original point as if that alone was sufficient proof to sway a multi-person conversation (ie. forum back and forth).
If all you want to say is "to each his own," start with that idea. Other people (ex. me) like to have discussions, and it doesn't really help the situation if you speak up and later say that you never really wanted to participate in the first place (you just wanted to have your say and be done with it, to hell with everyone else.)
I'm prepared to have a discussion, but not an argument... I have also cited canon examples, but when I have to keep repeating the same points, then it stops being a discussion, and becomes an argument, simply because my opinion doesn't align with your (or others) opinion... I cited the original point repeatedly, because it is a direct canon support for the notion of the Intrepid's construction, which can be intruited from the other canon examples of the missions they (Intrepids) undertook... Logical congecture, perhaps, but hardly wild flights of fantasy, or hyperbole like mark's 70 statements nonsense... Like I said, I don't buy the actual title of the OP Thread, but I can certainly accept that such missions as being the reason the Intrepids were originally built...
You don't "have to" you choose to because you have no other evidence to support your position. the 70 statements thing was a rough approximation based on it coming up once every other episode of Voy.
Anyways, Starfleet learned the hard way in ENT why "peaceful" exploration wasn't all it's cracked up to be. It turns out that "we come in peace, shoot to kill" is actually a quite reasonable approach in certain scenarios.
The Defiant is glass cannon. Being as big as it is with it's particular armament it doesn't have the power output to take much of a beating. A trope continued in the mission "Facility 4028" where Captain Shon's is blasted to hell. Shame he didn't go down with it...
The Defiant is more likely designed to deliver quick, focused attacks while being overall harder to hit (flat profile, small size). As she was initially meant to fight the Borg, I assume she was not meant to operate alone in engagements.
Her cannons seemed so powerful because almost every time we saw the Defiant fighting on screen she was fighting other small vessels. It took her much longer to fight the Lakota for example.
Worf was also holding back since it was another Starfleet vessel.
Sure, they may not be mutually exclusive, but when design intent is stated, then it has to be acknowledged as thus, even if later mission roles are fullfilled
I'm not sure what you're trying to say there. Yes, the Intrepid class could fulfill combat roles but there's no denying that even a poorly equipped one (ie. Voyager) could perform in the role of Science Vessel exceptionally. In heart, almost all Starfleet vessels balance scientific and combat roles. It's major moral quandary of the organization. Much airtime was dedicated to exploring that fact, literally and explicitly.
I'm not 'trying' to say anything... Paris said that Voyager had been built for combat performance. That's it... Case closed... Discussion over, nothing else needs to be said about it... It's direct canon statement, not an opinion open for investigation or debate, but a statement of fact
Except that it's a vague statement taken out of context, and from a non-authoritative source. I mean seriously... You expect Tom Paris to know the design intent behind the Intrepid class? He was probably in prison when it was built and launched. Also there's the fact that you're cherry picking, and ignoring something like 70 other statements made about the nature of the ship class.
If Paris is contemporary of Locarno, being in the academy in 2368, we know that the USS Intrepid was active in 2370so you're probably right. He was probably in High school at the latest when the ship was being designed.
Back on topic, I would say that the Intrepid was combat-ready but it's primary mission was exploration. The OP has ignored the possibility that Voyager was sent to find the Maquis because it had the best sensors to sniff them out in the badlands. The fact that Voyager was uniquely equipped for planetary landings argues strongly in favor of its' nature as an exploration vessel. No combat starship needs to land on a planet. It would be ridiculous for a space-going warship to make itself that vulnerable.
Also something on speed and range - When we first see the Intrepid class being described to Paris, it's top speed given makes it the fastest thing established in canon (9.75 for 12 hours, the Galaxy was 9.6 for 12).
9.975 actually. She was a speed demon.
A byproduct of the variable geometry warp nacelles and the negation of damage to space time we can presume.
Sure, they may not be mutually exclusive, but when design intent is stated, then it has to be acknowledged as thus, even if later mission roles are fullfilled
I'm not sure what you're trying to say there. Yes, the Intrepid class could fulfill combat roles but there's no denying that even a poorly equipped one (ie. Voyager) could perform in the role of Science Vessel exceptionally. In heart, almost all Starfleet vessels balance scientific and combat roles. It's major moral quandary of the organization. Much airtime was dedicated to exploring that fact, literally and explicitly.
I'm not 'trying' to say anything... Paris said that Voyager had been built for combat performance. That's it... Case closed... Discussion over, nothing else needs to be said about it... It's direct canon statement, not an opinion open for investigation or debate, but a statement of fact
Except that it's a vague statement taken out of context, and from a non-authoritative source.
I mean seriously... You expect Tom Paris to know the design intent behind the Intrepid class? He was probably in prison when it was built and launched.
The guy who designed and built the Delta Flyer... Who rebuilt a junked alien shuttle to operable status in his spare time, with no access to original specs... You're seriously questioning Paris' expertise in the field, and capacity for research?? That's funnier than the one about the unjoined Trill and the carrot...
Yes. Keep in mind that B'Elanna Torres, Tuvok, Harry Kim, and Seven of Nine help Tom Paris build that shuttle. He's a Starfleet Pilot so he knows what he's gonna need on a shuttle, and understands how the design principles work. That does not mean he was aware of the nature of the Intrepid class' original design intentions. He's a pilot, not an engineer.
Only to the Klingons. And in the Yesterday's Enterprise timeline. Though an argument could be made during the Dominion War, where the entire Galaxy class line seemed to be out for revenge for the Odyssey.
The only reason against calling it a science ship that I can think of, would be the lack of a true Science bridge officer (at least before Seven joined the crew). Kim was something of a mix between science and engineering, but he wasn't a Spock or T'Pol.
But even then one might also argue that there wasn't a true tactical officer either (see my comment in this thread on that) and that only Janeway was something of a tactically thinking officer as the captain, but also still a mix of both.
Harry Kim was the Operations Manager and the Science Officer. It should be noted that on the Enterprise-D and E the person with precisely that job description is Data. The only difference is Data was second officer and Kim was the lowest ranked Senior officer. This is common as Spock was executive officer and Science Officer. Jadzia Dax was Science Officer and Conning Officer.
Janeway was a Science Captain as well, just like Picard before her. Caretaker established this.... Janeway's first Starfleet posting was aboard the USS Al-Batani under the command of Captain Owen Paris. She served as the chief science officer during the ship's participation in the Arias Expedition.
Tuvok was most definitely the Tactical Officer (Intel Spec).
The phrase "built for combat performance" does not necessarily indicate that the design intent focused on that as its' primary mission.
It could be an educated opinion, like "Mustangs are built for speed".
It could be that combat performance was indeed one (not necessarily the only) of the design goals.
We can word chop on this or any other ST topic all day.
Voyager was clearly built with exploration as at least part of its' design intent (planetary landings).
It was captained by a Starfleet officer whose primary non-command interest was science and who often described herself as a scientist. Not necessarily an iron-clad mandate, but certainly a strong factor in considering what Voyager's mission was.
Voyager spent a considerable amount of time exploring the Delta Quadrant even to the point of the occasional detour to examine anomalies.
The USS Bellerophon, in its journey to Romulus, is another example of Starfleet's then-view of the Intrepid Class, and similarly comparable to the mission to the Badlands: A relatively routine situation which could get messy, and thus require a ship suited to that situation and mission profile...
And of course Voyager did exploration, that's what Starfleet does... It seeks out new lifeforms and new civilizations, by boldly going where no one has gone before...
In the case of the Bellerophon they may have just needed the fastest ship available.
You mean; It's a canon statement, so beyond the realm of mere opinion or speculation...
I don't think anybody is disputing that. It's lack of context, or the context it's provided in that's their issue.
It's also too vague a comment to say anything other than the ship was built with a tactical focus. It's still a science ship like every single other Starfleet ship ever seen, it's just better armed than most (other than the Sovereign and Defiant I'd assume).
It's far different from saying it's a Warship which was explicitly said about the Defiant.
Absolutely, it's very far from saying it's a warship, such as the Defiant, but it is acknowledging the Intrepid Class' capabilities, and potential design philosophy... As I noted with the Bellerophon, it's clearly a ship Starfleet sent when they wanted to 'send a message, without sending a message', so to speak, ie walk softly, and carry a big stick...
It's still only the DS9 era equivalent of the Galaxy. It's their best ship, their flag.
Though it does beg the question as to why Ross didn't take a Sovereign.
I've always hated the company's desire to make the Enterprise's one of a kind in the TNG era. They didn't let the Stargazer be a Constitution for that reason. Even the Enterprise-B had to have additional pieces to distinguish it from a normal Excelsior class.
actually now that think about it is the Defiant actually as good of a warship as it is made out to be. I can't remember a time it destroyed a larger ship when it wasn't part of a large fleet battle were the ship was likely heavily damaged for fighting other ships. in fact most of the time it seemed to be running or ambushing someone. not saying it's a bad ship but is it seems older ship designed for very different roles do almost as well with fewer problems. granted it could be a writing problem.
We actually see the Defiant disable at least one Cardassian Galor, which is a larger ship. And the Mirror One was able to force a (oversized?) Neg'Var to retreat.
And we often see it disable multiple Jem'Hadar ships in short succession. The Oddy couldn't achieve that. (At the same time, I hav to defend the Oddy here. It's shield were useless, and still the enemy had to resort to a suicide attack to stop it from retreating. The Galaxy Class clearly could hull tank for a while...)
And in the fight against the upgraded Excelsior she was in a better shape then the Excelsior. (but it was "just" an Excelsior)
I think the main benefit of the Defiant was however that it was a "cheap" design. It would probably be easier to mass-produce a bunch of larger multi-mission capable ships. My head-canonand DS9 hard-on makes me think it might have firepower similar to a Galaxy Class ship - but not even close the capability to perform its roles, and probably not even that tough. (If you consider what kind of sh*t the Enterprise survived.. Collisions with Cosmic Strings, A Borg ship ripping components out). But it needed to be stationed at a Starbase and longer, independent exploration (or combat) missions would be out of the question.
how strong is a galor though, I don't think we ever saw one of those do well against another larger warship. and the mirror neg'var is mirror with their made for fighting yet something worse in a fight tech kinda makes it hard to read.
and not sure defiant being cheaper is correct, grant can't really tell cause of of the reason we only see the one is so we know is sisko's defiant, not mook ship 35.
The prototype probably wasn't that cheap, but I think the long run, they would be cheaper. So much stuff you can just not install, like all those life support systems for a huge internal volume, large shuttle bays with dozens of shuttles, endless sensor arrays, holodecks, multiple computer cores, mutliple sickbays, labs, industrial replicators.
But what might really be "expensive" for Starfleet is the crew needed to operate a ship. And the Defiant needed very little.
The Defiant was initially declared a failure, ironically. The only reason it went to DS9 is because Sisko help designed it. O'Brien was the one who eventually made it a 'viable' warship.
Specifically he pulled it out of moth balls cause he needed something with more teeth.
You mean; It's a canon statement, so beyond the realm of mere opinion or speculation...
I don't think anybody is disputing that. It's lack of context, or the context it's provided in that's their issue.
It's also too vague a comment to say anything other than the ship was built with a tactical focus. It's still a science ship like every single other Starfleet ship ever seen, it's just better armed than most (other than the Sovereign and Defiant I'd assume).
It's far different from saying it's a Warship which was explicitly said about the Defiant.
Absolutely, it's very far from saying it's a warship, such as the Defiant, but it is acknowledging the Intrepid Class' capabilities, and potential design philosophy... As I noted with the Bellerophon, it's clearly a ship Starfleet sent when they wanted to 'send a message, without sending a message', so to speak, ie walk softly, and carry a big stick...
It's still only the DS9 era equivalent of the Galaxy. It's their best ship, their flag.
Though it does beg the question as to why Ross didn't take a Sovereign.
Or an Akira, or a Prometheus, or even the Defiant... All could have been construed as 'saber-rattling'... Sending an Intrepid was still a bit of 'rattling', but not as much as any of the other heavy-hitters would be
Well we also don't know what Section 31 had set up on the Bellerophon either. Luther Sloane needed a guaranteed escape after all.
Oh, as for her initial mission not being "long-range exploration" - it's called a "shakedown cruise". You want the new ship's first mission or two to be near enough that if she gets into trouble, she can issue an emergency call with some expectation it'll be answered before life support goes away.
Of course, during her first mission she was hit by an anomaly that suddenly made her the longest-range exploration vessel in Starfleet history, but it's not like they had planned for that.
Was the mission to run down Chakotay actually Voyager's shakedown, or was it simply the first time we saw her?
Memory Alpha's first paragraph on Caretaker is this
The newly commissioned starship Voyager and a Maquis raider are flung into the remote Delta Quadrant by a powerful entity known as the Caretaker.
As above: I'm not buying the claim that Voyager was a warship, but I do consider it a reasonable statement that the Intrepids were built with combat missions in mind...
So were the NX, Galaxy, and Constitution classes. Combat is part of the service of most Starfleet vessels. They're all built with that in mind, it's basic to premise of the series. Where I think the point stops is saying that the Intrepid was built more with combat missions in mind. Besides Tom Paris explaining how Voyager wasn't a music hall, there's nothing to suggest that it's primary mission was ever combat oriented. While the Defiant was equipped with ablative armor and pulse cannons, the Intrepid class had exceptional sensor arrays, a high warp cruising velocity, and no particular abundance of torpedo tubes or phaser beam arrays (they seem only to be on par for a ship of its size).
That can still be useful for certain missions (ex. simply finding a single Maquis raider), but considering the fact that this is Starfleet what those qualities translate likely to first and foremost is long range, independent exploration.
Hell even the Nova class if you look up her technical specs is pretty heavily armed for how small she is and supposed to be a replacement for the Oberth class.
Were Federation ships exploration ships? Yeah, but they also had to double as combat ships considering since Voyager went missing, how many major and minor wars has the Federation fought at that point?
Kinda need ships that can do it all.
That is an interesting point of note. The Nova class design started out behind the scenes as one of the contenders for the Defiant Class model, before it showed up in Equinox. There the secondary deflector housing was filled with multiple torpedo tubes. If we accept that official but not canon visual history, then we can assume that the Nova class actually WAS designed initially for a combat role.
One thing the Combat oriented Sovereign, Defiant pathfinder (Nova), and the Prometheus have in common with the Intrepid, was of course the no neck blended hull design intended to protect against Borg attacks. Though we don't know how that affected warp field geometry.
As above: I'm not buying the claim that Voyager was a warship, but I do consider it a reasonable statement that the Intrepids were built with combat missions in mind...
So were the NX, Galaxy, and Constitution classes. Combat is part of the service of most Starfleet vessels. Where I think the point stops is saying that the Intrepid was built more with combat missions in mind. Besides Tom Paris explaining how Voyager wasn't a music hall, there's nothing to suggest that it's primary mission was ever combat oriented. While the Defiant was equipped with ablative armor and pulse cannons, the Intrepid class had exceptional sensor arrays, a high warp cruising velocity, and no particular abundance of torpedo tubes or phaser beam arrays.
That can still be useful for certain missions (ex. simply finding a single Maquis raider), but considering the fact that this is Starfleet what those qualities translate likely to first and foremost is long range, independent exploration (hence why the concept of the Voyager series worked).
As I said; The Badlands mission: I doubt that Mad Kathy thought she was going to bring Chakotay in with an offer of coffee, or stern words... The mission of the Bellerophon to Romulus: A situation which could quite easily have headed south fast, so a definite 'show of restrained-strength' on the part of the Federation, rather sending a fifty-year old Excelsior, or any of the above-mentioned a**-whoopers like an Akira, a Sovereign, a Prometheus or Defiant... A very plausible calculation, from an in-verse perspective... And, as mentioned, the sustainable cruise velocity: Something designed to get where it's needed fast... Also, the pounding it took in Year of Hell, and kept going... Sure, the fancy stuff may have been gone, but the core capabilities of the ship remained, and she was able to not just defend herself, but actively keep fighting...
Those things all point to the Intrepid Class being built with engagements in mind and initially deployed thus... Once they find out what they can really do, sure, call it a science ship... And like Mad Kathy's going to say 'welcome aboard my warship... Be my friend, or I'll blow you out of the sky...' of course it's going to be introduced nicey-nicey to foreign dignitaries
Well...their opponent was the Maquis. These guys were only slightly better armed than the Bajoran Militia. In that I mean their ships had warp drive. ANY Starfleet ship of the line would've been reasonably equipped to stomp them. Starfleet didn't have issues threatening the Maquis, they were trying to stop their terrorist activity, not kill them.
Hell even the Nova class if you look up her technical specs is pretty heavily armed for how small she is and supposed to be a replacement for the Oberth class.
I've pulled open the Starship Spotter book for a simple (reasonable and franchise certified) run-down of ship armaments.
Nova Class:
11 Type X Beam Arrays
2 Photon Torpedo launchers
Intrepid Class:
11 Type X Beam Arrays
4 Photon Torpedo Launchers
This is at least as much firepower as the Galaxy and Nebula have (though I think having more beam arrays just amounts to maintaining coverage area across an irregular hull), but compared to the contemporaries:
Akira:
6 Type X Beam Arrays 15 Photon Torpedo Launchers
Sovereign+Prometheus:
12 Type XII Beam Arrays
3 Quantum Torpedo Launchers
It was a point in the later series that Starfleet was taking combat more seriously in their starship design (as a reaction to the Dominion War and Borg invasion). But this raises the standard for all major starships. The Intrepid is combat capable, but the role it serve in the fleet is still primarily exploration based. The authors put it the following way: (which basically sums up the run of Star Trek: Voyager and the Bellerophon's appearance.)
The Sovereign spec is wrong (got that book, love it, but it's wrong on that). It was one Quantum Torpedo launcher and 4 burst Photon Torpedo launchers. Then they added more by Nemesis.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
The Sovereign spec is wrong (got that book, love it, but it's wrong on that). It was one Quantum Torpedo launcher and 4 burst Photon Torpedo launchers. Then they added more by Nemesis.
Hmm, I sadly assume those stats are just from the production? I've been hoping for a more recent (or just more complete) Starship guide.
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You don't "have to" you choose to because you have no other evidence to support your position. the 70 statements thing was a rough approximation based on it coming up once every other episode of Voy.
Anyways, Starfleet learned the hard way in ENT why "peaceful" exploration wasn't all it's cracked up to be. It turns out that "we come in peace, shoot to kill" is actually a quite reasonable approach in certain scenarios.
I don't need more evidence... It's an opinion* and one supported by the examples I gave... You, on the other hand, are just pulling numbers out of thin air to sound like you have a valid basis for your own opinion...
*And as such, folks are able to agree or disagree, but disagreement, doesn't necessitate challenging said opinion just because it doesn't align with your view...
how strong is a galor though, I don't think we ever saw one of those do well against another larger warship. and the mirror neg'var is mirror with their made for fighting yet something worse in a fight tech kinda makes it hard to read.
and not sure defiant being cheaper is correct, grant can't really tell cause of of the reason we only see the one is so we know is sisko's defiant, not mook ship 35.
The prototype probably wasn't that cheap, but I think the long run, they would be cheaper. So much stuff you can just not install, like all those life support systems for a huge internal volume, large shuttle bays with dozens of shuttles, endless sensor arrays, holodecks, multiple computer cores, mutliple sickbays, labs, industrial replicators.
But what might really be "expensive" for Starfleet is the crew needed to operate a ship. And the Defiant needed very little. [/quote]
The Defiant was initially declared a failure, ironically. The only reason it went to DS9 is because Sisko help designed it. O'Brien was the one who eventually made it a 'viable' warship.[/quote]
Specifically he pulled it out of moth balls cause he needed something with more teeth.
I don't think anybody is disputing that. It's lack of context, or the context it's provided in that's their issue.
It's also too vague a comment to say anything other than the ship was built with a tactical focus. It's still a science ship like every single other Starfleet ship ever seen, it's just better armed than most (other than the Sovereign and Defiant I'd assume).
It's far different from saying it's a Warship which was explicitly said about the Defiant.[/quote]
Absolutely, it's very far from saying it's a warship, such as the Defiant, but it is acknowledging the Intrepid Class' capabilities, and potential design philosophy... As I noted with the Bellerophon, it's clearly a ship Starfleet sent when they wanted to 'send a message, without sending a message', so to speak, ie walk softly, and carry a big stick...
[/quote]
It's still only the DS9 era equivalent of the Galaxy. It's their best ship, their flag.
Though it does beg the question as to why Ross didn't take a Sovereign.[/quote]
Or an Akira, or a Prometheus, or even the Defiant... All could have been construed as 'saber-rattling'... Sending an Intrepid was still a bit of 'rattling', but not as much as any of the other heavy-hitters would be [/quote]
Well we also don't know what Section 31 had set up on the Bellerophon either. Luther Sloane needed a guaranteed escape after all.
[Memory Alpha's first paragraph on Caretaker is this
The newly commissioned starship Voyager and a Maquis raider are flung into the remote Delta Quadrant by a powerful entity known as the Caretaker.
As above: I'm not buying the claim that Voyager was a warship, but I do consider it a reasonable statement that the Intrepids were built with combat missions in mind...
So were the NX, Galaxy, and Constitution classes. Combat is part of the service of most Starfleet vessels. They're all built with that in mind, it's basic to premise of the series. Where I think the point stops is saying that the Intrepid was built more with combat missions in mind. Besides Tom Paris explaining how Voyager wasn't a music hall, there's nothing to suggest that it's primary mission was ever combat oriented. While the Defiant was equipped with ablative armor and pulse cannons, the Intrepid class had exceptional sensor arrays, a high warp cruising velocity, and no particular abundance of torpedo tubes or phaser beam arrays (they seem only to be on par for a ship of its size).
That can still be useful for certain missions (ex. simply finding a single Maquis raider), but considering the fact that this is Starfleet what those qualities translate likely to first and foremost is long range, independent exploration.
Hell even the Nova class if you look up her technical specs is pretty heavily armed for how small she is and supposed to be a replacement for the Oberth class.
Were Federation ships exploration ships? Yeah, but they also had to double as combat ships considering since Voyager went missing, how many major and minor wars has the Federation fought at that point?
Kinda need ships that can do it all.
That is an interesting point of note. The Nova class design started out behind the scenes as one of the contenders for the Defiant Class model, before it showed up in Equinox. There the secondary deflector housing was filled with multiple torpedo tubes. If we accept that official but not canon visual history, then we can assume that the Nova class actually WAS designed initially for a combat role.
One thing the Combat oriented Sovereign, Defiant pathfinder (Nova), and the Prometheus have in common with the Intrepid, was of course the no neck blended hull design intended to protect against Borg attacks. Though we don't know how that affected warp field geometry.
As above: I'm not buying the claim that Voyager was a warship, but I do consider it a reasonable statement that the Intrepids were built with combat missions in mind...
So were the NX, Galaxy, and Constitution classes. Combat is part of the service of most Starfleet vessels. Where I think the point stops is saying that the Intrepid was built more with combat missions in mind. Besides Tom Paris explaining how Voyager wasn't a music hall, there's nothing to suggest that it's primary mission was ever combat oriented. While the Defiant was equipped with ablative armor and pulse cannons, the Intrepid class had exceptional sensor arrays, a high warp cruising velocity, and no particular abundance of torpedo tubes or phaser beam arrays.
That can still be useful for certain missions (ex. simply finding a single Maquis raider), but considering the fact that this is Starfleet what those qualities translate likely to first and foremost is long range, independent exploration (hence why the concept of the Voyager series worked).
As I said; The Badlands mission: I doubt that Mad Kathy thought she was going to bring Chakotay in with an offer of coffee, or stern words... The mission of the Bellerophon to Romulus: A situation which could quite easily have headed south fast, so a definite 'show of restrained-strength' on the part of the Federation, rather sending a fifty-year old Excelsior, or any of the above-mentioned a**-whoopers like an Akira, a Sovereign, a Prometheus or Defiant... A very plausible calculation, from an in-verse perspective... And, as mentioned, the sustainable cruise velocity: Something designed to get where it's needed fast... Also, the pounding it took in Year of Hell, and kept going... Sure, the fancy stuff may have been gone, but the core capabilities of the ship remained, and she was able to not just defend herself, but actively keep fighting...
Those things all point to the Intrepid Class being built with engagements in mind and initially deployed thus... Once they find out what they can really do, sure, call it a science ship... And like Mad Kathy's going to say 'welcome aboard my warship... Be my friend, or I'll blow you out of the sky...' of course it's going to be introduced nicey-nicey to foreign dignitaries
Well...their opponent was the Maquis. These guys were only slightly better armed than the Bajoran Militia. In that I mean their ships had warp drive. ANY Starfleet ship of the line would've been reasonably equipped to stomp them. Starfleet didn't have issues threatening the Maquis, they were trying to stop their terrorist activity, not kill them.
The Sovereign spec is wrong (got that book, love it, but it's wrong on that). It was one Quantum Torpedo launcher and 4 burst Photon Torpedo launchers. Then they added more by Nemesis.
[/quote]
Forgot about the Nova being a contender for the Defiant class. But the overall point I was trying to make was the fact Starfleet was getting away from the "only doing one mission" style ships into more multi-mission style ships. Granted they still had powerhouses like the Defiant and Prometheus for the pure combat mission, but the Sovereign, Akira, Nova were all multi-mission capable as was the Intrepid class.
If I really had to classify the Intrepid class and this is just my 2 cents, she was a multi-mission platform capable of doing a wide array of missions. Why she survived so well so far from home. Had you dropped a Defiant class or even a Nebula, I think those ships would of been in more trouble compared to a Nova(which did quite well mind you) or the Intrepid.
Gotta stop trying to apply STO labels to these ships in context of the shows.
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The Sovereign spec is wrong (got that book, love it, but it's wrong on that). It was one Quantum Torpedo launcher and 4 burst Photon Torpedo launchers. Then they added more by Nemesis.
Hmm, I sadly assume those stats are just from the production? I've been hoping for a more recent (or just more complete) Starship guide.
I wanted a Haynes guide for each individual Enterprise. I mean the one with all seven was nice enough. But compared to that Bird of Prey guide....
But yeah, everything else indicates the primary turret Quantum Torpedo launcher under the saucer, and the two fore and aft on the ventral of the Stardrive are Photon Torpedo launchers.
You don't "have to" you choose to because you have no other evidence to support your position. the 70 statements thing was a rough approximation based on it coming up once every other episode of Voy.
Anyways, Starfleet learned the hard way in ENT why "peaceful" exploration wasn't all it's cracked up to be. It turns out that "we come in peace, shoot to kill" is actually a quite reasonable approach in certain scenarios.
I don't need more evidence... It's an opinion* and one supported by the examples I gave... You, on the other hand, are just pulling numbers out of thin air to sound like you have a valid basis for your own opinion...
*And as such, folks are able to agree or disagree, but disagreement, doesn't necessitate challenging said opinion just because it doesn't align with your view...
This is now not even on topic, so I'm out...
You have a single canon statement supporting your opinion, but do you acknowledge that others have produced canon and supplemental information that disputes it?
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
The Sovereign spec is wrong (got that book, love it, but it's wrong on that). It was one Quantum Torpedo launcher and 4 burst Photon Torpedo launchers. Then they added more by Nemesis.
Hmm, I sadly assume those stats are just from the production? I've been hoping for a more recent (or just more complete) Starship guide.
I wanted a Haynes guide for each individual Enterprise. I mean the one with all seven was nice enough. But compared to that Bird of Prey guide....
But yeah, everything else indicates the primary turret Quantum Torpedo launcher under the saucer, and the two fore and aft on the ventral of the Stardrive are Photon Torpedo launchers.
You don't "have to" you choose to because you have no other evidence to support your position. the 70 statements thing was a rough approximation based on it coming up once every other episode of Voy.
Anyways, Starfleet learned the hard way in ENT why "peaceful" exploration wasn't all it's cracked up to be. It turns out that "we come in peace, shoot to kill" is actually a quite reasonable approach in certain scenarios.
I don't need more evidence... It's an opinion* and one supported by the examples I gave... You, on the other hand, are just pulling numbers out of thin air to sound like you have a valid basis for your own opinion...
*And as such, folks are able to agree or disagree, but disagreement, doesn't necessitate challenging said opinion just because it doesn't align with your view...
This is now not even on topic, so I'm out...
You have a single canon statement supporting your opinion, but do you acknowledge that others have produced canon and supplemental information that disputes it?
Like I said, I'm out... Dishes to wash, ships to craft, Orions to force-feed Kool-Aid and such, andin the nicest possible way, since being able to actually play the game, and since Sander's passing, I have less inclination to waste my time debating minutia on here than I used to...
Forgot about the Nova being a contender for the Defiant class. But the overall point I was trying to make was the fact Starfleet was getting away from the "only doing one mission" style ships into more multi-mission style ships. Granted they still had powerhouses like the Defiant and Prometheus for the pure combat mission, but the Sovereign, Akira, Nova were all multi-mission capable as was the Intrepid class.
If I really had to classify the Intrepid class and this is just my 2 cents, she was a multi-mission platform capable of doing a wide array of missions. Why she survived so well so far from home. Had you dropped a Defiant class or even a Nebula, I think those ships would of been in more trouble compared to a Nova(which did quite well mind you) or the Intrepid.
Gotta stop trying to apply STO labels to these ships in context of the shows.
It's kind of a failure of this game that there are so many specialized ships....not that it's out of line.
From what I see Starfleet originally made EVERY ship a multi-mission, multi-role, all-arounder, because they had scant few ships. It was only when they got bigger that they had different kinds of ships. Before the Wrath of Khan introduced the Miranda class, aside from Franz Joseph's supplementary books, Every starship was a Constitution. By the late 23rd century we had light cruisers and science vessels, and scouts. By the 24th century, Starfleet had upwards of 30,000 ships so Starfleet had room to specialize. So you have multiple kinds of cruisers, escorts, a wide variety of science ships.
If exploration was a primary feature, and the game was more of a Star Trek sim, then we'd get a more accurate to intention view of how the different ships operate.
The Sovereign spec is wrong (got that book, love it, but it's wrong on that). It was one Quantum Torpedo launcher and 4 burst Photon Torpedo launchers. Then they added more by Nemesis.
Hmm, I sadly assume those stats are just from the production? I've been hoping for a more recent (or just more complete) Starship guide.
I wanted a Haynes guide for each individual Enterprise. I mean the one with all seven was nice enough. But compared to that Bird of Prey guide....
But yeah, everything else indicates the primary turret Quantum Torpedo launcher under the saucer, and the two fore and aft on the ventral of the Stardrive are Photon Torpedo launchers.
You don't "have to" you choose to because you have no other evidence to support your position. the 70 statements thing was a rough approximation based on it coming up once every other episode of Voy.
Anyways, Starfleet learned the hard way in ENT why "peaceful" exploration wasn't all it's cracked up to be. It turns out that "we come in peace, shoot to kill" is actually a quite reasonable approach in certain scenarios.
I don't need more evidence... It's an opinion* and one supported by the examples I gave... You, on the other hand, are just pulling numbers out of thin air to sound like you have a valid basis for your own opinion...
*And as such, folks are able to agree or disagree, but disagreement, doesn't necessitate challenging said opinion just because it doesn't align with your view...
This is now not even on topic, so I'm out...
You have a single canon statement supporting your opinion, but do you acknowledge that others have produced canon and supplemental information that disputes it?
Like I said, I'm out... Dishes to wash, ships to craft, Orions to force-feed Kool-Aid and such, andin the nicest possible way, since being able to actually play the game, and since Sander's passing, I have less inclination to waste my time debating minutia on here than I used to...
Peace.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Comments
Of course, during her first mission she was hit by an anomaly that suddenly made her the longest-range exploration vessel in Starfleet history, but it's not like they had planned for that.
Informally or otherwise, the information was still being delivered, by someone who is unquestionably an expert in the field... It may have been off the cuff, but it's still canon, and still valid...
Like I said, I'm not totally drinking Olivia's Kool-Aid; I'm not buying the premise that Voyager was a warship, but I certainly accept the premise that the Intrepid Class (according to Paris) was build for combat performance, and the examples of the Badlands and Romulus missions, certainly lend support to the notion of them being deployed to potential/probabl combat zones, as does the sustainable cruise velocity -- they need to get where they're going fast to get the job done... I'd hypothesize the original intent, from those examples, as possibly being a high-speed interceptor...
Here's an exact line from "Someone to Watch Over Me."
I can't imagine that you need any more clarification than that. But if you do, you may simply want to log off and watch the series again (since the nature of Voyager was a strong theme throughout the run of the series). It may be more helpful to discover the obvious for yourself, rather than fighting those who are trying to explain it for you. Living Witness may be a good place to start, since it's about fighting the portrayal of Voyager as a combat-focused vessel.
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As above, yes, it is Now classified as a science vessel, and New Canon supersedes Old canon... I'm not buying the claim that Voyager was a warship, but I do consider it a reasonable statement that it was built with combat missions in mind...
The Galaxy was the first ship to have phaser strips litteraly all over, not having a "blind splot" except up really close to the hull..
So all Starfleet ships have combat stuff.
What Paris ment is that when they designed the Intrepid, they focused more on things like combat than musical performance.
As above: I'm not buying the claim that Voyager was a warship, but I do consider it a reasonable statement that the Intrepids were built with combat missions in mind...
So were the NX, Galaxy, and Constitution classes. Combat is part of the service of most Starfleet vessels. Presumably, they're all built with that in mind, it's basic to premise of the series. Where I think the point stops is saying that the Intrepid was built more with combat missions in mind. Besides Tom Paris explaining how Voyager wasn't a music hall (and similar out-of-context lines), there's nothing to suggest that it's primary mission was ever combat oriented. While the Defiant was equipped with ablative armor and pulse cannons, the Intrepid class had exceptional sensor arrays, a high warp cruising velocity, and no particular abundance of torpedo tubes or phaser beam arrays (they seem only to be on par for a ship of its size).
That can still be useful for certain missions (ex. simply finding a single Maquis raider), but considering the fact that this is Starfleet what those qualities probably translate to first and foremost is long range, independent exploration (with a smaller vessel than the traditional big cruiser, ie. Galaxy and Sovereign).
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Hell even the Nova class if you look up her technical specs is pretty heavily armed for how small she is and supposed to be a replacement for the Oberth class.
Were Federation ships exploration ships? Yeah, but they also had to double as combat ships considering since Voyager went missing, how many major and minor wars has the Federation fought at that point?
Kinda need ships that can do it all.
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Those things all point to the Intrepid Class being built with engagements in mind and initially deployed thus... Once they find out what they can really do, sure, call it a science ship... And like Mad Kathy's going to say 'welcome aboard my warship... Be my friend, or I'll blow you out of the sky...' of course it's going to be introduced nicey-nicey to foreign dignitaries
Strike that, the strangest thing about this thread is that ANYBODY thinks Star Trek episodes add up to some sort of coherent setting. This is seat of your pants episodic writing with less than a day left before you must start shooting and Voyager would be amongst the worst, with things like plainly stated limited stores of torpedoes at the outset to create some dramatic tension... and absolutely willy-nilly expenditure of those torpedoes because the writers literally could not give a damn to check their own series bible. All they knew how to write was LCD Star Trek where we're all too civilized to have money and you never run out of anything... for more than 40 minutes.
But really this particular conspiracy falls way short of the mark... Voyager is a warship? DUH. Almost all Federation ships we've seen other than a few tugs would be classed as warships by any sane civilization.
I've pulled open the Starship Spotter book for a simple (reasonable and franchise certified) run-down of ship armaments.
Nova Class:
11 Type X Beam Arrays
2 Photon Torpedo launchers
Intrepid Class:
11 Type X Beam Arrays
4 Photon Torpedo Launchers
This is at least as much firepower as the Galaxy and Nebula have (though I think having more beam arrays just amounts to maintaining coverage area across an irregular hull), but compared to the contemporaries:
Akira:
6 Type X Beam Arrays
15 Photon Torpedo Launchers
Sovereign+Prometheus:
12 Type XII Beam Arrays
3 Quantum Torpedo Launchers
It was a point in the later series that Starfleet was taking combat more seriously in their starship design (as a reaction to the Dominion War and Borg invasion). But this raises the standard for all major starships. The Intrepid is combat capable, but the role it serve in the fleet is still primarily exploration based. The authors put it the following way: (which basically sums up the run of Star Trek: Voyager and the Bellerophon's appearance.)
"One of a series of newer and more compact ships, the Intrepid-class was designed to be a fast multi-mission starship primarily intended for exploration, survey, and courier missions. A fast vessel with advanced sensing and research capability, the Intrepid-class makes for an effective exploratory platform, while at the same time carrying sufficient armament to act as a combat vessel."
Or that it was originally designed as a capable deep space exploration vessel (with sufficient combat capabilities), and while they had them on hand the Admiralty may as well send them out on limited assignments (no point in wasting a resource.) That's much more in keeping with what we know, what's been said about the Intrepid class, and where we saw them used (ex. not in major combat during the Dominion War). It's reaching to say that (like the Defiant and Akira) the Intrepid was built first as a combat vessel and then co-opted for exploration.
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Thread started earlier today and already is at 4 pages holy nut muffins!
Why do all of you INSIST on falling for Olivias crazy thread troll bait?
[Unnecessary offensive post removed]
You'refree to disagree with me all you like, but I think I have more than explained my position, rather than having to keep reiterating it just because you don't share it...
All I'll say then is that I've also been citing canon throughout this discussion. In my response to you I specifically stayed with canon. The guide book was just a fun way of expanding discussion with stats (which presumably come from just counting the hull elements on CG models) for another poster. You've blithely disregarded every canon example that hasn't agreed with you and reiterated the same, original point as if that alone was sufficient proof to throw into a multi-person conversation (ie. forum back and forth)."
If all you want to say is "to each his own, this is what I've got to say" do start with that idea and leave it there. Other people (ex. me) like to have discussions. For example, expanding on "Intrepid-class could act as a combat ship" with an explanation that "it wasn't mainly a combat ship." That's not a refutation, that's developing the idea to come to the most reasonable assessment possible. It's not that big of a deal, but for Trekkies this kind of talk can be interesting.
To that end, it doesn't really help if you speak up, have your time, and only later say that you never really wanted to participate in the first place (you just wanted to have your say, to hell with everyone else.) Often that just results in ego smashing (as what you wanted was just your say, free of the quibbles from other people. Why can't they, as you put it, "STFU?"), and we can do better.
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Again, I go back to my point of the Federation started building ships that could do the exploration job, but if a war arose they were not using severely under armed ships to fight that war. Which if you think about it, makes sense.
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Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
Anyways, Starfleet learned the hard way in ENT why "peaceful" exploration wasn't all it's cracked up to be. It turns out that "we come in peace, shoot to kill" is actually a quite reasonable approach in certain scenarios.
My character Tsin'xing
Worf was also holding back since it was another Starfleet vessel.
If Paris is contemporary of Locarno, being in the academy in 2368, we know that the USS Intrepid was active in 2370so you're probably right. He was probably in High school at the latest when the ship was being designed.
9.975 actually. She was a speed demon.
A byproduct of the variable geometry warp nacelles and the negation of damage to space time we can presume.
Yes. Keep in mind that B'Elanna Torres, Tuvok, Harry Kim, and Seven of Nine help Tom Paris build that shuttle. He's a Starfleet Pilot so he knows what he's gonna need on a shuttle, and understands how the design principles work. That does not mean he was aware of the nature of the Intrepid class' original design intentions. He's a pilot, not an engineer.
Only to the Klingons. And in the Yesterday's Enterprise timeline. Though an argument could be made during the Dominion War, where the entire Galaxy class line seemed to be out for revenge for the Odyssey.
Harry Kim was the Operations Manager and the Science Officer. It should be noted that on the Enterprise-D and E the person with precisely that job description is Data. The only difference is Data was second officer and Kim was the lowest ranked Senior officer. This is common as Spock was executive officer and Science Officer. Jadzia Dax was Science Officer and Conning Officer.
Janeway was a Science Captain as well, just like Picard before her. Caretaker established this....
Janeway's first Starfleet posting was aboard the USS Al-Batani under the command of Captain Owen Paris. She served as the chief science officer during the ship's participation in the Arias Expedition.
Tuvok was most definitely the Tactical Officer (Intel Spec).
In the case of the Bellerophon they may have just needed the fastest ship available.
I've always hated the company's desire to make the Enterprise's one of a kind in the TNG era. They didn't let the Stargazer be a Constitution for that reason. Even the Enterprise-B had to have additional pieces to distinguish it from a normal Excelsior class.
Specifically he pulled it out of moth balls cause he needed something with more teeth.
Well we also don't know what Section 31 had set up on the Bellerophon either. Luther Sloane needed a guaranteed escape after all.
Memory Alpha's first paragraph on Caretaker is this
The newly commissioned starship Voyager and a Maquis raider are flung into the remote Delta Quadrant by a powerful entity known as the Caretaker.
That is an interesting point of note. The Nova class design started out behind the scenes as one of the contenders for the Defiant Class model, before it showed up in Equinox. There the secondary deflector housing was filled with multiple torpedo tubes. If we accept that official but not canon visual history, then we can assume that the Nova class actually WAS designed initially for a combat role.
One thing the Combat oriented Sovereign, Defiant pathfinder (Nova), and the Prometheus have in common with the Intrepid, was of course the no neck blended hull design intended to protect against Borg attacks. Though we don't know how that affected warp field geometry.
Well...their opponent was the Maquis. These guys were only slightly better armed than the Bajoran Militia. In that I mean their ships had warp drive. ANY Starfleet ship of the line would've been reasonably equipped to stomp them. Starfleet didn't have issues threatening the Maquis, they were trying to stop their terrorist activity, not kill them.
The Sovereign spec is wrong (got that book, love it, but it's wrong on that). It was one Quantum Torpedo launcher and 4 burst Photon Torpedo launchers. Then they added more by Nemesis.
Hmm, I sadly assume those stats are just from the production? I've been hoping for a more recent (or just more complete) Starship guide.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
*And as such, folks are able to agree or disagree, but disagreement, doesn't necessitate challenging said opinion just because it doesn't align with your view...
This is now not even on topic, so I'm out...
The prototype probably wasn't that cheap, but I think the long run, they would be cheaper. So much stuff you can just not install, like all those life support systems for a huge internal volume, large shuttle bays with dozens of shuttles, endless sensor arrays, holodecks, multiple computer cores, mutliple sickbays, labs, industrial replicators.
But what might really be "expensive" for Starfleet is the crew needed to operate a ship. And the Defiant needed very little. [/quote]
The Defiant was initially declared a failure, ironically. The only reason it went to DS9 is because Sisko help designed it. O'Brien was the one who eventually made it a 'viable' warship.[/quote]
Specifically he pulled it out of moth balls cause he needed something with more teeth.
I don't think anybody is disputing that. It's lack of context, or the context it's provided in that's their issue.
It's also too vague a comment to say anything other than the ship was built with a tactical focus. It's still a science ship like every single other Starfleet ship ever seen, it's just better armed than most (other than the Sovereign and Defiant I'd assume).
It's far different from saying it's a Warship which was explicitly said about the Defiant.[/quote]
Absolutely, it's very far from saying it's a warship, such as the Defiant, but it is acknowledging the Intrepid Class' capabilities, and potential design philosophy... As I noted with the Bellerophon, it's clearly a ship Starfleet sent when they wanted to 'send a message, without sending a message', so to speak, ie walk softly, and carry a big stick...
[/quote]
It's still only the DS9 era equivalent of the Galaxy. It's their best ship, their flag.
Though it does beg the question as to why Ross didn't take a Sovereign.[/quote]
Or an Akira, or a Prometheus, or even the Defiant... All could have been construed as 'saber-rattling'... Sending an Intrepid was still a bit of 'rattling', but not as much as any of the other heavy-hitters would be
Well we also don't know what Section 31 had set up on the Bellerophon either. Luther Sloane needed a guaranteed escape after all.
[Memory Alpha's first paragraph on Caretaker is this
The newly commissioned starship Voyager and a Maquis raider are flung into the remote Delta Quadrant by a powerful entity known as the Caretaker.
That is an interesting point of note. The Nova class design started out behind the scenes as one of the contenders for the Defiant Class model, before it showed up in Equinox. There the secondary deflector housing was filled with multiple torpedo tubes. If we accept that official but not canon visual history, then we can assume that the Nova class actually WAS designed initially for a combat role.
One thing the Combat oriented Sovereign, Defiant pathfinder (Nova), and the Prometheus have in common with the Intrepid, was of course the no neck blended hull design intended to protect against Borg attacks. Though we don't know how that affected warp field geometry.
Well...their opponent was the Maquis. These guys were only slightly better armed than the Bajoran Militia. In that I mean their ships had warp drive. ANY Starfleet ship of the line would've been reasonably equipped to stomp them. Starfleet didn't have issues threatening the Maquis, they were trying to stop their terrorist activity, not kill them.
The Sovereign spec is wrong (got that book, love it, but it's wrong on that). It was one Quantum Torpedo launcher and 4 burst Photon Torpedo launchers. Then they added more by Nemesis.
[/quote]
Forgot about the Nova being a contender for the Defiant class. But the overall point I was trying to make was the fact Starfleet was getting away from the "only doing one mission" style ships into more multi-mission style ships. Granted they still had powerhouses like the Defiant and Prometheus for the pure combat mission, but the Sovereign, Akira, Nova were all multi-mission capable as was the Intrepid class.
If I really had to classify the Intrepid class and this is just my 2 cents, she was a multi-mission platform capable of doing a wide array of missions. Why she survived so well so far from home. Had you dropped a Defiant class or even a Nebula, I think those ships would of been in more trouble compared to a Nova(which did quite well mind you) or the Intrepid.
Gotta stop trying to apply STO labels to these ships in context of the shows.
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I wanted a Haynes guide for each individual Enterprise. I mean the one with all seven was nice enough. But compared to that Bird of Prey guide....
But yeah, everything else indicates the primary turret Quantum Torpedo launcher under the saucer, and the two fore and aft on the ventral of the Stardrive are Photon Torpedo launchers.
Seen here.
Versus Quantums
You have a single canon statement supporting your opinion, but do you acknowledge that others have produced canon and supplemental information that disputes it?
It's kind of a failure of this game that there are so many specialized ships....not that it's out of line.
From what I see Starfleet originally made EVERY ship a multi-mission, multi-role, all-arounder, because they had scant few ships. It was only when they got bigger that they had different kinds of ships. Before the Wrath of Khan introduced the Miranda class, aside from Franz Joseph's supplementary books, Every starship was a Constitution. By the late 23rd century we had light cruisers and science vessels, and scouts. By the 24th century, Starfleet had upwards of 30,000 ships so Starfleet had room to specialize. So you have multiple kinds of cruisers, escorts, a wide variety of science ships.
If exploration was a primary feature, and the game was more of a Star Trek sim, then we'd get a more accurate to intention view of how the different ships operate.
Peace.