And how long was it between the release of Nemesis, and 09? Between the cancellation of Enterprise, and Discovery? Of course the franchise is still going, but that doesn't make it bulletproof..
The amount of time is meaningless. What those examples show is that even the most poorly received Trek isn't going to ruin the franchise. History has proven - time and again - Trek fans are very forgiving of mistakes. I find it extremely unlikely Discovery will do anything to irreparably damage the franchise.
Given that at one point there were multiple Trek series running concurrently, I disagree, and think the amount of time shows a reluctance to work the franchise, until they felt it was safe to try again. YMMV.
First, not every fan is going to pay for All Access just to watch Discovery. I certainly won't, nor is anyone else I know. For those that will be, that's their choice and their risk. I've no problem with CBS using Discovery as their flagship show. I think it's a fine idea.
It's a safe idea, and a lazy idea, which I've previously discussed, and not feeling in the mood to rehash.
And the same point as before: Credibility is not transferable. Change for the sake of change, will only be tolerated so far, especially when there is an alternative available.
Tolerance of change is up to the individual. For me, when the Orville has "Star Trek" in it's title, I'll consider it an alternative. It's not even an apples to oranges comparison IMO. One is a comedy, the other a dramatic series.
Sorry, but the amount of people commenting on social media that they are specifically looking forward to The Orville rather than Discovery, indicates a very different sentiment.
Cherry picking. Look at the reactions to the use of the McQuarrie design, on this forum alone: Far from universal praise, and the design was changed, from what was initially teased. You're going to have to do harder than The Hollywood Reporter, to convince me that these evolutions were in anyway intended all along, and not Suicde Squad-esque panic revisions
No, it isn't cherry picking, nor do I care what the forums here said. That wasn't the point.
Your comment was that the reaction of comic con viewers of the Discovery materials were "resoundingly derided." The linked article clearly proves you are utterly and completely wrong.
So your prepared to disregard opinions which disagree with yours without consideration, but will accept reviews which you think you can use to disprove someone else. Duly noted.
No, I said, that the reaction to what was released at the comicon wasn't positive. I wasn't referring to the reaction at that venue at that time, but the overall dismissals which were clear on the forum and other social media. I'm sorry if I wasn't sufficiently clear about that.
...Again, not an assumption of a conclusion, because I'm not, and was not, talking about Discovery's eventual/potential popularity, but the creative process which has gone into it as a project and how it appears to have been revised in response to negative test feedback and reception...
How is this in any way, shape or form outside the norm for any television or film media project? Star Trek II had it's ending re-written several times!
And are all those revisions planned and intended, or a response to poor receptions?
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
(...)
Look at how Nemesis failed at the box office, simply because of the competing titles at the time. (...)
Yes. Or because it was a unspeakably horrible piece of ****
also, people like to exaggerate how drastically Suicide Squad was rewritten after the initial trailers were shown. when you watch the film closely you can see how certain of the comedy scenes feel a bit out of place. Well, the majority of the movie(as shown in theaters) was done when they made the first few trailers, and then a few more scenes got shot to make it a bit less grim dark and more funny(albeit a dark sort of humor). It certainly livened it up nicely.
I don't know how much it was re-written, just that the producers TRIBBLE themselves after the initial trailers, and ordered re-writes, which would appear, to be the same thing happening on Discovery
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
No TV show or movie is final until it has been screened, and upon occasion there are revisions after the first screening. This is common practice, especially in shows which have surprise twists. Very often multiple dhots of similar scenes are made, then after viewing in the director's studio, cuts or additions or even splices of multiple takes are done. Revision is a continuous process in art.
Now I'm not attdmpting to refute the point that it's a course change due to internet angst. I'm pointing out that revision is standard procedure for any film, and one should not put too much emphasis on it because it might mean anything from the actor had a moustache that didn't film well to the story having a gaping hole in it that needs filling.
Sorry, but the amount of people commenting on social media that they are specifically looking forward to The Orville rather than Discovery, indicates a very different sentiment.
Really? What social media? Tweets I've seen are mostly positive. Same goes with everyone in my Facebook circle. Unless you have access to various global social media data that we aren't all privy to?
Well there's your issue: Twitter. A circle-jerk echo-chamber if ever there was one. Are you on facebook? Check out The Orville's page, and read the various responses and comments. Way more varied commentary than nepotistic re-tweets, and a lot of disinterest in Discovery.
So your prepared to disregard opinions which disagree with yours without consideration, but will accept reviews which you think you can use to disprove someone else. Duly noted.
No, not at all. I linked the article because it disproves your comment.
You mean your misunderstanding of my comment. As I said, well TRIBBLE, I'm not typing it out again, you quoted it, so re-read what I wrote below:
No, I said, that the reaction to what was released at the comicon wasn't positive. I wasn't referring to the reaction at that venue at that time, but the overall dismissals which were clear on the forum and other social media. I'm sorry if I wasn't sufficiently clear about that.
So an article (which is written by one person with biasses) not actually about what zi was referring to. Like I said, I apologize if I wasn't sufficiently clear.
The forums here are not even a fraction of a fraction of the fanbase. And again, unless you have access to the sum total of all social media globally, you're guessing at best.
So you reject the finding because the sample doesn't meet your imaginary criteria. you'd do the same with anything I post, so I'm not wasting further time addressing this point.
And are all those revisions planned and intended, or a response to poor receptions?
In the case of Star Trek II, absolutely yes. In the case of many, many other television programs and films? Absolutely yes. This is what test audiences are for.
[/quote]
Thank you for proving my point. That is exactly what test audiences are for. It also shows that the initial concept they were putting out, was not well received, and so they changed it in response to that feedback.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
So, it looks like the show will slowly pivot towards a more TOS look. Now, you could ask why did the PTBs make such a departure in design in the first place, if they're only going to walk it all back later... a valid question... but, as we have discussed in here earlier, designs (ships, graphics, uniforms, etc.) can change. It's silly to write off a show because of that, IMO.
Interesting article indeed, thanks for the share. Its timing, I consider interesting. When the initial look of the Discovery was released at the comicon, it was resoundingly derided. Their response? "Oh this is just concept art..." And they changed it.
There's been months of feedback on social media since the trailers, where people have pointed out the glaring aesthetic inconsistencies to TOS, and how they feel this is a show which is Trek in name only, coasting on the name and nostalgia to get subscribers, while providing a totally different concept (which under any other circumstances, would be written off as alternate universe/reboot/etc)
And now they say that things will be shifting towards the TOS aesthetic.
To me, that comes across as nothing more than damage-control placations to try and retain interest from people who have already decided it's not something they're intersted in subscribing to watch
Damage control over fans that give snap judgements on the internet over a show they haven't seen yet?
Did the same not hapoen with Suicide Squad mid-shoot? Like I said, reaction to what has been seen: Ship design which was rapidly denounced as only being 'work in progress' after lukewarm reception. Reaction to the aesthetic differences between Discovery, and what has been seen of The Cage and TOS, Axanar and Continues. Significant rejection of the project, for a competing project which is 'out-Trekking' the official Trek offering. And, alleged test-screenings where less than 50% were interested in seeing more.
In an interconnected information age, these are all perfectly valid reasons to be performing damage control, and potentially changing the direction of later episodes of the series, compared to what has been planned. If I was a CBS executive attached to the project, frankly, I'd be extremely nervous about the potential reaction upon launch.
You are guessing this is not going to go the way you are hoping? you are entited to that viewpoint. However you mentioned it yourself, you can't know for sure what will happen. Why should CBS fear to do something to add to Trek history? If it succeeds or fails it doesn't matter, it's the effort of trying that counts and and as far as i am concerned, all power to CBS forat least trying, better than sitting around wondering and never knowing for sure.
Are you making a statement, or asking a question?
At the moment, all anyone is doing is speculating. Based on the above examples, it comes across to me as face-saving attempts at disguised revision based on poor test reception. I know that this happens, and cited Suicide Squad as a very recent example of it being done.
As for 'why should they fear to do something to add to Trek history?' That's a loaded and misleadingly-worded question: But off the top of my head;
-They should fear to release a series which could potentially damage IP popularity and marketability.
-They should fear to release a series, which they are clearly using as a flagship draw to CBS All Access, because if it fails to win popularity, oh dear, they'll be losing subscriptions, and while they may not have to issue refunds, they certainly won't be getting any more dollar out of displeased viewers.
-They should fear to release a show which shows a marked lack of awareness for the IP or the sensitivities/sensibilities of the fanbase (upon which they are hoping to make dollar) because that could potentially impact upon their own personal employabilit or bankability as a producer.
They have a lot to gain, but they equally have a lot to lose if this project bombs. And, up against a competing project which would appear to be being well-received, they may be entering s popularity contest which they can't win.
Look at how Nemesis failed at the box office, simply because of the competing titles at the time. Discovery is running the same kind of risk, in fact, more so than Nemesis, because where Bond and Potter weren't directly competing comparable franchises, The Orville is.
Onky a few weeks now, and we'll know what happens.
"Exciting!" - Montgomery Scott
A question and i'm trying to find some form of understanding in what you see and like you mention this is a speculation thread.
The others here; @angrytarg, @valoreah and @mhall85 have made some valid points, which is something i agree with, that Star Trek has been going for 50 years now, it's had it's ups and downs but it hasn't been shafted, it's been almost 20 years between TOS and TNG and only a few years between films and series. Time gaps don't mean anything to Trek.
They don't have a lot to fear for their series and there have been a lot more damaging episodes and choices in trek history and even with those the franchise has not been shafted by the fanbase, a lot of people love trek and the significance it created. Trek is built on controversy and what could be considered damaging to the brand and not once has Trek been hammered for it, it fact some of those choices are used as proud examples of how cultures have shifted in the face of a tv series which at their time would be considered outragous.
CBS shouldn't fear to put new things into trek.
Okay, well, I don't particularly want to retype and rephrase what I already said in the quoted post, because it'll just be the same thing, differently worded.
The key difference I see now, compared to those previous times, is the ubiquity of social media and interconnectivity. People once seen on screen, are as contactable as any family relative. People can now lose their jobs over comments made online, as happened with a former L'Oreal model last week. RottenTomatoes dictates a movie's position in the popularity contest.
What I'm saying in that regard, is that producers have a lot more to lose now than they used to. Back in the day, Andy Robinson received hatemail for his role in Dirty Harry. Nowadays, actors get blacklisted over comments made. Opinions about a series can potentially go viral. Discovery is not universally anticipated, and I do not believe it will get the same kind of welcome as even Enterprise got.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Of course, two bad reviews does not a series make. Still, if FOX has botched the marketing for this by painting it as a Macfarlane space parody, and it's not... people may leave in droves.
maybe it's going to be only a touch of comedy rather than pure comedy - and i really want to see it if that's the case; part of the reason i like stargate sg-1 so much was because of its significant humorous element - especially in Window of Opportunity, which remains the best episode of sg-1 in the entire series purely because of one scene
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Well, no. More like your backpedaling because you were proven wrong.
You honestly think that, don't you
I wasn't speaking about the reaction at the convention, I was speaking about the general reaction in the community to the previewed ship which was shown at the convention. I apologized for any misunderstanding, but hey, if you need to clasp at straws this desperately to think you've 'got one over' on me...
Thank you for proving my point. That is exactly what test audiences are for. It also shows that the initial concept they were putting out, was not well received, and so they changed it in response to that feedback.
And it will not be the final product. Rewrites and revisions are a normal part of any series. It doesn't automatically spell DOOOOM! for the show. It's a perfectly legitimate process.
It is a legitimate process, but the timing, is, if not 'suspicious', certainly worthy of note, especially when taken with the awareness of things like those images of the Klingons which were leaked, and the initial denial from the studio, and attempt to undermine the credibility of the poster, by declaring them to be 'just an extra who doesn't know what he's talking about'. There's been some major disingenuity surrounding the project to date, which means they don't get to cry 'benefit of the doubt' when people notice things aren't all they might be
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Of course, two bad reviews does not a series make. Still, if FOX has botched the marketing for this by painting it as a Macfarlane space parody, and it's not... people may leave in droves.
Thanks for the links, time will tell
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
maybe it's going to be only a touch of comedy rather than pure comedy - and i really want to see it if that's the case; part of the reason i like stargate sg-1 so much was because of its significant humorous element - especially in Window of Opportunity, which remains the best episode of sg-1 in the entire series purely because of one scene
In that light, however, I'm hoping that either the reviews of that first episode of The Orville are off, or the drama writing improves quickly. The reviewers are unimpressed with the dramatic moments - "...painfully earnest dialogue and melodramatic act breaks that verge on self-parody..." "...lands with a thud, like you’re waiting for a clever punchline that never comes..." "...take themselves so damn seriously that they suck all the fun out of space exploration..."
Doesn't sound promising, frankly, but I've stated my views on critics before, so let's hope the actual episode is better than that. (And, if it is, that Fox doesn't air the episodes out of order starting with episode 2 instead of the pilot, then cancel the show after six episodes.)
It is a legitimate process, but the timing, is, if not 'suspicious', certainly worthy of note, especially when taken with the awareness of things like those images of the Klingons which were leaked, and the initial denial from the studio, and attempt to undermine the credibility of the poster, by declaring them to be 'just an extra who doesn't know what he's talking about'. There's been some major disingenuity surrounding the project to date, which means they don't get to cry 'benefit of the doubt' when people notice things aren't all they might be
What "suspicious" timing?
Discovery's design gets premiered. After there's dismissal in the community, a revised design is released. And I believe, what we're now getting, is different from the second release"
People note the complete lack of aesthetic compatibility, which leads to speculations about canon alignment and Timeline setting. They first release the statement that they have people on the writing staff specifically to ensure canon adherence, and now, even closer to release, they now come out with the notion that there will be an evolution of the aesthetics towards TOS. Why not just say so initially? It may be legit, but it also comes across as damage control and face-saving.
Of course the studio will initially deny leaked content. Have you honestly never heard nor read about the CIA/NSA level security measures surrounding Trek productions in the past?
maybe it's going to be only a touch of comedy rather than pure comedy - and i really want to see it if that's the case; part of the reason i like stargate sg-1 so much was because of its significant humorous element - especially in Window of Opportunity, which remains the best episode of sg-1 in the entire series purely because of one scene
Could be. I bet 600 quatloos Fox cancels it within 3 seasons.
Defiance got three seasons, I don't think Discovery will be as lucky. JJ's Almost Human got 13 episodes, so I'll be interested to see if Discovery has a second season.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Of course, two bad reviews does not a series make. Still, if FOX has botched the marketing for this by painting it as a Macfarlane space parody, and it's not... people may leave in droves.
Wow, really? The Orvilleisn't going to be a comedy? I'll pass then, thank you. Fox is notorious for cancelling sci-fi shows anyway.
Yeah, Team Orville is downplaying the comedy aspects of the show, and have used words like "dramedey" to describe the show. One of those reviews I linked specifically says that if you expect a straight comedy, then you will be disappointed.
I would find it hard to believe that Macfarlane would avoid comedy at all in the series... I guess we'll find out Sunday.
@silverlobes#2676 wrote: "Discovery's design gets premiered. After there's dismissal in the community, a revised design is released. And I believe, what we're now getting, is different from the second release"
People note the complete lack of aesthetic compatibility, which leads to speculations about canon alignment and Timeline setting. They first release the statement that they have people on the writing staff specifically to ensure canon adherence, and now, even closer to release, they now come out with the notion that there will be an evolution of the aesthetics towards TOS. Why not just say so initially? It may be legit, but it also comes across as damage control and face-saving."
Two easy explanations without requiring any malice or TRIBBLE-covering.
1. Left hand not knowing what right hand is doing. Hollywood studios are as vulnerable to Dilbertism as any other large company. http://dilbert.com/strip/1995-01-22
2. The design for the series was simply incomplete, a work in progress still when things first started getting announced, and much of this had not been decided yet. (I believe there I saw some comments that the texture resolution of that original model of USS Discovery was pretty poor...)
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Discovery's design gets premiered. After there's dismissal in the community, a revised design is released. And I believe, what we're now getting, is different from the second release"
People note the complete lack of aesthetic compatibility, which leads to speculations about canon alignment and Timeline setting. They first release the statement that they have people on the writing staff specifically to ensure canon adherence, and now, even closer to release, they now come out with the notion that there will be an evolution of the aesthetics towards TOS. Why not just say so initially? It may be legit, but it also comes across as damage control and face-saving.
I don't find any of this suspicious at all. IIRC the initial video of the Discovery is not all that radically different than what we see now. Their later statements about "progressing toward a more TOS look" could also be to silence the incessant whining of the over zealous fans out there, or it could be that CBS marketing withheld that nugget for release closer to premier date. Not everything has nefarious reasoning behind it.
Defiance got three seasons, I don't think Discovery will be as lucky. JJ's Almost Human got 13 episodes, so I'll be interested to see if Discovery has a second season.
Neither Defiance or Almost Human had anything to do with CBS. If anything, Almost Human is more a signal that Orville won't last on Fox. It joins the ranks of Firefly, Terminator: TSCC, Futurama, Space: Above and Beyond etc. The odds of a sci-fi series lasting on Fox are slim.
I do.
Never said that they were anything to do with CBS, but Almost Human was a JJ project, and I'm simply using them as examples of sci-fi shows which had short runs. I believe Defiance was an intentional ending, where Almost Human, I believe was a cancellation.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
@silverlobes#2676 wrote:
"Discovery's design gets premiered. After there's dismissal in the community, a revised design is released. And I believe, what we're now getting, is different from the second release"
People note the complete lack of aesthetic compatibility, which leads to speculations about canon alignment and Timeline setting. They first release the statement that they have people on the writing staff specifically to ensure canon adherence, and now, even closer to release, they now come out with the notion that there will be an evolution of the aesthetics towards TOS. Why not just say so initially? It may be legit, but it also comes across as damage control and face-saving."
Two easy explanations without requiring any malice or ****-covering.
1. Left hand not knowing what right hand is doing. Hollywood studios are as vulnerable to Dilbertism as any other large company. http://dilbert.com/strip/1995-01-22
2. The design for the series was simply incomplete, a work in progress still when things first started getting announced, and much of this had not been decided yet. (I believe there I saw some comments that the texture resolution of that original model of USS Discovery was pretty poor...)
Certainly possible
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
And now they say that things will be shifting towards the TOS aesthetic.
To me, that comes across as nothing more than damage-control placations to try and retain interest from people who have already decided it's not something they're intersted in subscribing to watch
100% agreed, in fact the term "damage control" was the first thing that flashed through my mind when I saw that headline as well. But hey, if everyone in this thread could see what we consider obvious there wouldn't be near 100 pages of argument over the same few points. But so far, I feel like the evidence continues to support our position and the mental gymnastics and pretzel logic from the deniers has only gotten more strained and desperate.
Well absolutely, look at val's earlier attempt to try and prove me wrong about the reaction to Discovery, by thinking (or pretending to think) that I was only refering to the reaction at the comicon itself, rather than all the reactions across the various platforms... I haven't seen someone clutching at straws so desperately in quite some time, but hey, I got a laugh out of it I think it's case that folks don't want to see it, because that would be against the narrative
Actually, the naysayers on TNG (I was one of them) were RIGHT. It wasn't what the fanbase wanted (more 23rd century Trek on television, as they'd asked for for 20 years at that point), the characters were bland, the designs were questionable at best, and most of the scripts and writing was poor at best. Encounter at Farpoint is still cringeworthy to watch. Most of the early season episodes are just as bad, to the point that it's a running joke that whether or not Riker has a beard (as he got in later seasons) is an indicator of whether or not an episode is worth watching.
As little as I cared for the concept, I gave it a chance. I decided "ok, this isn't Trek as I know it but I'll just look at it as a new science fiction series based on the Trek I know and judge it on its own merits". Those merits were sorely lacking, and the show lost me as it did a great many other viewers.
What got us back was the Borg episodes. Best of Both Worlds electrified the audience, it took an already interesting premise (the Borg which were genuinely awesome and scary in their introductory episode) and capitalized on them with a hell of a script and a cliffhanger that hooked us hard. By the time next seasons premiere came with the second part of the story, the entire conversation had changed. That second part was heavily anticipated and for the whole break the buzz was all about how incredible that episode had been, and speculation about how they were going to resolve that cliffhanger and save the day against the most menacing enemy EVER seen in Star Trek and one of the best enemy races in ALL science fiction film and television.
And the second part delivered. The payoff was worth the anticipation. From that point on, the series had been redeemed in the eyes of the audience and fans. We loved what we'd seen and wanted more. We were back on board.
The fact is, If they hadn't wowed us with BoBW part 1, or if the second part hadn't delivered and instead had fizzled and been a disappointment, the series would have been cancelled and remembered as a bomb. We're lucky that it was a different time in television and series were given a longer chance to find their legs and get going. We're also lucky that there was a wariness to cancel Star Trek a second time, considering the way history had villainized those who had canceled it the first time. Otherwise, they would never have had the time or opportunity to fix what was wrong and get it right.
But yeah, TNG was a total dog in those early years, and pretending "oh the fans were wrong!" is revisionist history.
Absolutely so, I agree completely
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
TNG had the benefit of the network executives wanting the show to be long enough for syndication, which is why they had the opportunity to find their legs so to speak. Syndication was pretty much how the studio made its money back from TOS, so they figured it would be a safe strategy again. The rise of low budget reality shows has kind of killed that market strategy though.
Actually, the naysayers on TNG (I was one of them) were RIGHT. It wasn't what the fanbase wanted (more 23rd century Trek on television, as they'd asked for for 20 years at that point), the characters were bland, the designs were questionable at best, and most of the scripts and writing was poor at best. Encounter at Farpoint is still cringeworthy to watch. Most of the early season episodes are just as bad, to the point that it's a running joke that whether or not Riker has a beard (as he got in later seasons) is an indicator of whether or not an episode is worth watching.
As little as I cared for the concept, I gave it a chance. I decided "ok, this isn't Trek as I know it but I'll just look at it as a new science fiction series based on the Trek I know and judge it on its own merits". Those merits were sorely lacking, and the show lost me as it did a great many other viewers.
What got us back was the Borg episodes. Best of Both Worlds electrified the audience, it took an already interesting premise (the Borg which were genuinely awesome and scary in their introductory episode) and capitalized on them with a hell of a script and a cliffhanger that hooked us hard. By the time next seasons premiere came with the second part of the story, the entire conversation had changed. That second part was heavily anticipated and for the whole break the buzz was all about how incredible that episode had been, and speculation about how they were going to resolve that cliffhanger and save the day against the most menacing enemy EVER seen in Star Trek and one of the best enemy races in ALL science fiction film and television.
And the second part delivered. The payoff was worth the anticipation. From that point on, the series had been redeemed in the eyes of the audience and fans. We loved what we'd seen and wanted more. We were back on board.
The fact is, If they hadn't wowed us with BoBW part 1, or if the second part hadn't delivered and instead had fizzled and been a disappointment, the series would have been cancelled and remembered as a bomb. We're lucky that it was a different time in television and series were given a longer chance to find their legs and get going. We're also lucky that there was a wariness to cancel Star Trek a second time, considering the way history had villainized those who had canceled it the first time. Otherwise, they would never have had the time or opportunity to fix what was wrong and get it right.
But yeah, TNG was a total dog in those early years, and pretending "oh the fans were wrong!" is revisionist history.
What I find absolutely hilarious about that is the fact that the clusterfrell that was early TNG was 100% Roddenberry trying to produce the series he'd wanted TOS to be, and yet I constantly see people (not necessarily people in this thread, understand) criticizing DSC as "not what Roddenberry intended".
On the flipside, DS9 gets good about the middle of season 1, with a bottle episode of all things, "Duet". And for the most part maintains something resembling that level of writing for the remainder of the series (excluding mediocrities like "Fascination" and outright offensive episodes like "For the Uniform" and "Profit and Lace").
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I want Discovery to succeed. It has great potential, and if the writers, directors, and producers can be bothered to read some actual science fiction, there is hope they can include some in their TV drama.
But there's the issue, for me. You see, I'm not a 'drama in a sci-fi setting' consumer. I never cared for the Walking Dead because it was just a drama. Who's hooking up with who, who's backstabbing, who's manipulating, who's cheating on whoever; none of these things really get my attention. If GoT and Walking Dead is their game plan, then it won't be, for me, worth the price of a DVD.
While I understand others like that sort of thing, for me it is a distraction at best. What I want to see is the exploration of the impact of technology on human culture, the exploration of human interaction with alien cultures, and I want to feel the anticipation of attempting to solve the puzzle alongside a protagonist with whom I can identify.
So, I am hoping there is more to Discovery than a soap opera dressed in space costumes. But that is my personal desire, and I recognize that dramas gain a much wider audience than SciFi. And dramas get that crucial twenty-something female audience upon which advertisers rely.
Which brings me back to hoping that actual SciFi can be squeezed into the drama rather than having yet another drama dressed in SciFi clothing.
Comments
It's a safe idea, and a lazy idea, which I've previously discussed, and not feeling in the mood to rehash.
Sorry, but the amount of people commenting on social media that they are specifically looking forward to The Orville rather than Discovery, indicates a very different sentiment.
So your prepared to disregard opinions which disagree with yours without consideration, but will accept reviews which you think you can use to disprove someone else. Duly noted.
No, I said, that the reaction to what was released at the comicon wasn't positive. I wasn't referring to the reaction at that venue at that time, but the overall dismissals which were clear on the forum and other social media. I'm sorry if I wasn't sufficiently clear about that.
And are all those revisions planned and intended, or a response to poor receptions?
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Now I'm not attdmpting to refute the point that it's a course change due to internet angst. I'm pointing out that revision is standard procedure for any film, and one should not put too much emphasis on it because it might mean anything from the actor had a moustache that didn't film well to the story having a gaping hole in it that needs filling.
You mean your misunderstanding of my comment. As I said, well TRIBBLE, I'm not typing it out again, you quoted it, so re-read what I wrote below:
So an article (which is written by one person with biasses) not actually about what zi was referring to. Like I said, I apologize if I wasn't sufficiently clear.
So you reject the finding because the sample doesn't meet your imaginary criteria. you'd do the same with anything I post, so I'm not wasting further time addressing this point.
In the case of Star Trek II, absolutely yes. In the case of many, many other television programs and films? Absolutely yes. This is what test audiences are for.
[/quote]
Thank you for proving my point. That is exactly what test audiences are for. It also shows that the initial concept they were putting out, was not well received, and so they changed it in response to that feedback.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
It's not a comedy, but it's also apparently not a very good drama. Uh oh.
The key difference I see now, compared to those previous times, is the ubiquity of social media and interconnectivity. People once seen on screen, are as contactable as any family relative. People can now lose their jobs over comments made online, as happened with a former L'Oreal model last week. RottenTomatoes dictates a movie's position in the popularity contest.
What I'm saying in that regard, is that producers have a lot more to lose now than they used to. Back in the day, Andy Robinson received hatemail for his role in Dirty Harry. Nowadays, actors get blacklisted over comments made. Opinions about a series can potentially go viral. Discovery is not universally anticipated, and I do not believe it will get the same kind of welcome as even Enterprise got.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Links?
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Review 1: http://tvline.com/2017/09/05/the-orville-review-fox-seth-macfarlane-sci-fi-outer-space/
Review 2: http://www.sfchronicle.com/tv/article/MacFarlane-is-lost-in-space-with-Orville-12169901.php
Of course, two bad reviews does not a series make. Still, if FOX has botched the marketing for this by painting it as a Macfarlane space parody, and it's not... people may leave in droves.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I wasn't speaking about the reaction at the convention, I was speaking about the general reaction in the community to the previewed ship which was shown at the convention. I apologized for any misunderstanding, but hey, if you need to clasp at straws this desperately to think you've 'got one over' on me...
It is a legitimate process, but the timing, is, if not 'suspicious', certainly worthy of note, especially when taken with the awareness of things like those images of the Klingons which were leaked, and the initial denial from the studio, and attempt to undermine the credibility of the poster, by declaring them to be 'just an extra who doesn't know what he's talking about'. There's been some major disingenuity surrounding the project to date, which means they don't get to cry 'benefit of the doubt' when people notice things aren't all they might be
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Doesn't sound promising, frankly, but I've stated my views on critics before, so let's hope the actual episode is better than that. (And, if it is, that Fox doesn't air the episodes out of order starting with episode 2 instead of the pilot, then cancel the show after six episodes.)
People note the complete lack of aesthetic compatibility, which leads to speculations about canon alignment and Timeline setting. They first release the statement that they have people on the writing staff specifically to ensure canon adherence, and now, even closer to release, they now come out with the notion that there will be an evolution of the aesthetics towards TOS. Why not just say so initially? It may be legit, but it also comes across as damage control and face-saving.
I have not.
Defiance got three seasons, I don't think Discovery will be as lucky. JJ's Almost Human got 13 episodes, so I'll be interested to see if Discovery has a second season.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Yeah, Team Orville is downplaying the comedy aspects of the show, and have used words like "dramedey" to describe the show. One of those reviews I linked specifically says that if you expect a straight comedy, then you will be disappointed.
I would find it hard to believe that Macfarlane would avoid comedy at all in the series... I guess we'll find out Sunday.
"Discovery's design gets premiered. After there's dismissal in the community, a revised design is released. And I believe, what we're now getting, is different from the second release"
People note the complete lack of aesthetic compatibility, which leads to speculations about canon alignment and Timeline setting. They first release the statement that they have people on the writing staff specifically to ensure canon adherence, and now, even closer to release, they now come out with the notion that there will be an evolution of the aesthetics towards TOS. Why not just say so initially? It may be legit, but it also comes across as damage control and face-saving."
Two easy explanations without requiring any malice or TRIBBLE-covering.
1. Left hand not knowing what right hand is doing. Hollywood studios are as vulnerable to Dilbertism as any other large company. http://dilbert.com/strip/1995-01-22
2. The design for the series was simply incomplete, a work in progress still when things first started getting announced, and much of this had not been decided yet. (I believe there I saw some comments that the texture resolution of that original model of USS Discovery was pretty poor...)
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I do.
Never said that they were anything to do with CBS, but Almost Human was a JJ project, and I'm simply using them as examples of sci-fi shows which had short runs. I believe Defiance was an intentional ending, where Almost Human, I believe was a cancellation.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Absolutely so, I agree completely
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
What I find absolutely hilarious about that is the fact that the clusterfrell that was early TNG was 100% Roddenberry trying to produce the series he'd wanted TOS to be, and yet I constantly see people (not necessarily people in this thread, understand) criticizing DSC as "not what Roddenberry intended".
On the flipside, DS9 gets good about the middle of season 1, with a bottle episode of all things, "Duet". And for the most part maintains something resembling that level of writing for the remainder of the series (excluding mediocrities like "Fascination" and outright offensive episodes like "For the Uniform" and "Profit and Lace").
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
But there's the issue, for me. You see, I'm not a 'drama in a sci-fi setting' consumer. I never cared for the Walking Dead because it was just a drama. Who's hooking up with who, who's backstabbing, who's manipulating, who's cheating on whoever; none of these things really get my attention. If GoT and Walking Dead is their game plan, then it won't be, for me, worth the price of a DVD.
While I understand others like that sort of thing, for me it is a distraction at best. What I want to see is the exploration of the impact of technology on human culture, the exploration of human interaction with alien cultures, and I want to feel the anticipation of attempting to solve the puzzle alongside a protagonist with whom I can identify.
So, I am hoping there is more to Discovery than a soap opera dressed in space costumes. But that is my personal desire, and I recognize that dramas gain a much wider audience than SciFi. And dramas get that crucial twenty-something female audience upon which advertisers rely.
Which brings me back to hoping that actual SciFi can be squeezed into the drama rather than having yet another drama dressed in SciFi clothing.