Ok y'all need to listen to the podcast that just went up today, bort explains the rebalancing of auxiliary Power and such. They simplified it by giving every power the same % bonus from skill points and Auxiliary power but they may have to adjust the base effect to compensate which they are working on currently.
I'm all for Borticus simplifying the abilities equations. Heck, I've never been able to make one for the drain on Tachyon Beam, Tetryon proc, or Tyken's drain, but he didn't have to go and lower the drains at the same time. Energy Siphon doesn't even have an Aux component that affects its drain, just the time duration.
Partly, I'm glad he left subspace decompiler and countermeasure systems equations intact, although they did do some changes to any deflector that went over +70 on a single skill under the new system. Also noticed yesterday, some Ferengi minded players already scooped up anything in the Exchange they might be able to sell higher under the new combined skills. Was trying to buy a cheap deflector with certain combinations to see the Tribble equivalent.
TBH, and a lot of the science people will prolly get their feeling hurt, but science is not really anything special. Never has been. Hundreds of runs in advanced/elite STF's, I have never come across one that could come close to the parser DPS of my Scimitar build. Drain builds? LOL. The only thing that was able to get some of these guys over 40k was SV. 40k close lil fella, got a long way to go to sustain 110k. Sustain means constant, not spike DPS in case you try to throw that in there.
You're not exactly protecting the Tactical side of the house, are you?
Well they decided to slow down leveling and we got the 50-60 grind...they decided to lengthen Delta Rising...we got like 6 forced patrol missions. Sorry...just not optimistic when Cryptic decides to "change" things.
Agreed. A top end partgen build easily costs hundreds of millions of EC and potentially millions of Dilithium if one wants to properly optimize with UR and Epic equipment. Not to mention the monetary investment in expensive T6 ships for traits like AHOD.
Theres no way low-end builds deserve or should be competitive with top end builds.
Well. not millions of Dilitium, but a few hundred thousand. And how about spending that on the weekend just before this all came out. Good timing on their part. An Upgrade Weekend where literally billions of EC, Dilitium, and the like are expended, and then saying 'boys and girls the times they are a'changing'. Hopefully, this gets straightened out as early bugs, otherwise the tin-foil hat brigade may question the scheduling behind all this.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I'm more concerned with the way shield and engine power are going to be addressed. Engine power extremely underperforms and shield power does the same just not as severe. Why not start there. They should have know an attack on Aux power would ruffle a few feathers. Mine included.
The very best. The elite. Conspiracy theoriest, data miners, modders. You know all these ppl who create builds to maximize dps.
I guess these ppl could however just pve and faceroll. The game is what it is because of pvp. Do you think anyone would go out of there way to test a partical gen build to see how much dps it does on a npc. I didn't think so, STFU.
my point exactly. the handful of players dictating what the majority have to live with. The reason science got nerfed to hell while FAW gets stronger and stronger, so the Tacbabies don't cry foul and go running home to momma.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Don't try to TRIBBLE others over because you are getting it.
Im not a sci but a tac, and sci was already once nerfed to hell , now they are going to do it again and yet your precious FAW is never touched.
Someone says nerf sci people like you are giggly happy, say nerf FAW and nerd rage erupts you should try to do more then just mash spacebar all the time.
TBH, and a lot of the science people will prolly get their feeling hurt, but science is not really anything special. Never has been. Hundreds of runs in advanced/elite STF's, I have never come across one that could come close to the parser DPS of my Scimitar build. Drain builds? LOL. The only thing that was able to get some of these guys over 40k was SV. 40k close lil fella, got a long way to go to sustain 110k. Sustain means constant, not spike DPS in case you try to throw that in there.
So a science build can't put out a sustained 100K DPS....so what!
The reason us science captains play our chosen roles are not because we're chasing some hallowed DPS number like you with your Scimitar seem to feel you need to. And to be honest I don't want to be able to put out 100K DPS, because then the game looses any challenge and just becomes an epeen waving contest.
We know that we won't be able to put out that sort of damage non-stop, but our builds can still be highly effective and competitive in any of the PVE queues, normal, advanced or elite.
So you go about your business in your Scimitar and we'll enjoy a different play style that isn't just flying in circles spamming BFAW at everything.
I have not decided yet what I find worse, DPS elitism or sci power elitism.
Glad it stopped concerning me after dishing out 60k dps on science toons in science ships myself while crowed controlling and debuffing like carzy in pug runs. One of them is in the 70k+ reach but much seems to depend on teams for scis then already.
Please start using your brain peeps, a nerf to aux power would nerf everybody.
Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Reducing the benefit of Aux above 100 is just a nerf, pure and simple.
Oh, and: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scapegoat - since some of you need reminding, because there are less than a hundred PvPers left in STO, and the idea that Cryptic would adjust something because of PvP is utterly laughable as all you are doing is demonstrating your ignorance of what actually happens when PvPers ask for stuff.
Regarding the Tribble nerfs. Instead of speculating about it and relying on 3rd party sources - test it, report the discrepancies on the feedback thread. Without that, it doesn't matter if nerfs were intended or things were bugs - Borticus won't know about it, and won't change anything about it either.
If he decides that science deserves some nerfs, that would suck, but it would suck even more if science was nerfed because of bugs that no one bothered to report.
And yet Cryptic continues to fear and persecute science over the past 18 months while allowing FAW to FIRE AT WILLLLL.
I have 6 science characters and I have to say, that this is quite frankly, TRIBBLE. Science has gotten lots of traits and special abilities lately to make it more potent. At least in the DPS department. All Hand on Deck, the new flagship traits. All the speciality torpedoes, the Research Fleet Holding and the new science gear - they all make science vessels more potent than they were before.
Cryptic might not have done much to reign in BFAW (though they did fix more issues with the Plasma Embassy consoles), but they did a lot to buff science.
If you willfully ignore these facts, then you do not appear to be either knowledgeable about the state of science, or as a dishonest participant in the discussion about science.
I am not saying that science is equal to escort/cruiser BFAW builds yet - I quite franky do not min/max enough to personally know the extreme ends. But it's not in a terrible state, and I think if BFAW are still more potent, then they need a nerf more than Science needs more buffs.
The area where Science is limited primarily now in my opinion is that it seems all about exotic damage. Placates, Confuses and Stuns are irrelevant, since they all focus on lowering the enemies offensive capabilities, and that is so low that no one worries about that.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
@mustrumridcully0 To be fair, historically Science DID receive a massive series of nerfs in a year after launch. Other things in the game have had touches of it here, there, but nothing else in the game took it in the teeth the way Science did in 2011-2012 timeframe.
Let's also be open here: In the past year, Science indeed has benefitted a lot. But notice it's really only one aspect that has in general.
Exotic Damage.
Stuff like Disables/Shutdowns, Confuses have no traction in PVE. Their effects in PVP had been nerfed back in 2011-2012. Science's highest, costliest skillboxes are also it's most worthless after their nerfs and it's been that way for years and has never recovered.
Stuff like Disables/Shutdowns, Confuses have no traction in PVE. Their effects in PVP had been nerfed back in 2011-2012. Science's highest, costliest skillboxes are also it's most worthless after their nerfs and it's been that way for years and has never recovered.
With the revamp adding corresponding resistances to the control abilities in Science, now is the time to make them relevant. If it doesn't happen now, it likely never will.
@mustrumridcully0 To be fair, historically Science DID receive a massive series of nerfs in a year after launch. Other things in the game have had touches of it here, there, but nothing else in the game took it in the teeth the way Science did in 2011-2012 timeframe.
And that was totally deserved, because it created stunlock builds. That was just plain imbalanced. If your enemy can't even fight back, where is the challenge?
And in turn, a lot of powers were improved. Hazard Emitters and Transfer Shield Strength were just plain broken then.
And most people from F2P probably don't remember any of that.
Let's also be open here: In the past year, Science indeed has benefitted a lot. But notice it's really only one aspect that has in general.
Exotic Damage.
Stuff like Disables/Shutdowns, Confuses have no traction in PVE. Their effects in PVP had been nerfed back in 2011-2012. Science's highest, costliest skillboxes are also it's most worthless after their nerfs and it's been that way for years and has never recovered.
Yes, that's the problem. I am not sure that it can be fixed without adressing the NPCs themselves, though. Currently, NPCs are really just punching bags - sure, they fight back a bit, but disabling their firepower temporarily is not gonna do as much as adding more DPS to yourself.
Subnucleonic Beam might be the best example - in PvP it was always an ultra-potent power, because player defensive and offensive potential was determined by the buffs they had running. But against NPCs, there was barely something to dispel, their fire power was inherent. So that leaves something Jam Sensors or Scramble Sensors - but then, the firepower they have, is not anywhere as huge as the firepower players have.
Maybe a skill like Hazard emitters would actually deserve a nerf - not to nerf science, but to nerf player healing so they actually have to worry about incoming damage. But that would probably be misguided and ineffective - too much healing these days comes from set bonuses, consoles or traits - that's why people have so much space for DPS buffs. But of course, just increasing NPC damage buffing or base damage could lead to unsolvable problems - to survive longer, you need to sacrifice DPS buffs in favor of healing, but if you do that, you have to survive the enemy onslaught even longer.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Maybe a skill like Hazard emitters would actually deserve a nerf - not to nerf science, but to nerf player healing so they actually have to worry about incoming damage. But that would probably be misguided and ineffective - too much healing these days comes from set bonuses, consoles or traits - that's why people have so much space for DPS buffs. But of course, just increasing NPC damage buffing or base damage could lead to unsolvable problems - to survive longer, you need to sacrifice DPS buffs in favor of healing, but if you do that, you have to survive the enemy onslaught even longer.
I don't think the problem is here. I think the problem is that people are playing Advanced content with Elite-level builds. A lot of people are looking at the DPS-blow-everything-up issue with Advanced in their mindset. I think this isn't the right way to approach it.
Add more elites and you'll quickly find out that DPS isn't the end means to everything. In HSE for example many builds sacrifice a bit of DPS for more survivability. In my opinion, HSE builds are generally more balanced. The same goes for CPE.
I'm talking about the part manipulator nerf and the plasma nerf. and yes the plasma was as much a nerf to all but with 5 sci consoles of it it maybe was to sci a little more. i don't see why all hands on deck is only for sci. most people use it for the reduction to captain abilities. as far as new torpedoes, well, how about the shield stripping torpedo nerf and the general torpedo spread nerf we had recently to normalize them and reduce the kemo as well. That episode torpedo was briefly very powerful. Why take it away if you want to level the playing field??
the subtle point i'm making which is being entirely ignored is that sci is closely monitored while tac is entirely left on the honor system to roam as it wishes.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Don't try to TRIBBLE others over because you are getting it.
Im not a sci but a tac, and sci was already once nerfed to hell , now they are going to do it again and yet your precious FAW is never touched.
Someone says nerf sci people like you are giggly happy, say nerf FAW and nerd rage erupts you should try to do more then just mash spacebar all the time.
Really, ? Allow me to quote myself from earlier in this thread...
I apologize for the incoming nerf. I've played MMOs for many years and have developed a super power. If I start a powerful class, it will be nerfed in short order...
I started a Sci captain 3 weeks ago.
He is level 57, and currently my primary character I'm playing.
Agreed. A top end partgen build easily costs hundreds of millions of EC and potentially millions of Dilithium if one wants to properly optimize with UR and Epic equipment. Not to mention the monetary investment in expensive T6 ships for traits like AHOD.
Theres no way low-end builds deserve or should be competitive with top end builds.
Well. not millions of Dilitium, but a few hundred thousand. And how about spending that on the weekend just before this all came out. Good timing on their part. An Upgrade Weekend where literally billions of EC, Dilitium, and the like are expended, and then saying 'boys and girls the times they are a'changing'. Hopefully, this gets straightened out as early bugs, otherwise the tin-foil hat brigade may question the scheduling behind all this.
They already pulled that stunt n the past with a nerf to embassy plasma consoles. Upgrade weekend, the day it ends announce a nerf to them.
If any one who understands science and what science can do will see we arent being nerfed.
Yes there a few skills like lucho said on the drain side that are being hit, but that may be adjusted correctly.
But are disables and confuse, placates are being greatly improved, along with the rift for a drain. GW seems to be about the same in turns of a pull and a hold. (pull distance may be sightly smaller, still testing)
PG builds were getting out of hand and needed to be reduced. If you built your build around PG then your were not being science. Sitting there using DRB while overcapping AUX power, using the pull doff on tbr is not science. Tacts jumping in a sci ship/pg build was op.
I am fine that tacts have to put almost everything in the tact to keep there bfaw dps builds up there, which will limit there usefulness in a sci/pg build.
To the point of healing. As some one already mentioned. Self healing was crazy in this game. HE, was the go to heal, and was crazy high. You can get HE3 to heal for 50k. AuxSif, HE was never suppose to be the main healing source over a engi team. Engi Team now becomes the main healing source on top of all that trait healing cheese.
"Frankly, not sure why you're on a one man nerf campaign. "
PG builds were getting out of hand and needed to be reduced. If you built your build around PG then your were not being science.
I'm sorry but I disagree with that assertion.
If you build for Science abilities you are doing Science in this game. The skills are in the Science tree, therefore they are no more or less "Sciency" than Drain abilities. Your claim is as outlandish as me saying that if you are doing Drains, you are not doing Science.
That's like saying a Tac flying an Escort using primarily torpedoes is not running a tac oriented build because he isn't using beams or cannons.
Like a Tac oriented setup (tac options can include Torps/Cannons/Beams/Mines) there are different approaches to building for Science.
i also agree. my main is a science captain, flying a science ship, and most of my skill points in the new system will be going into the science tree. But I sure the hell am going to max partgens and use them. I don't see why I should be railroaded into only making drainboats because that's the only science power that still works.
Oh, and the Rift is the stupidest "power" ever, I refuse to use it. (on account of i'm sick of running around cleaning up the Terran mess left by people who do).
LUKARI GUERILLA GARDENING MILITIA - Glowing fingers are Growing fingers!
Comments
I'm all for Borticus simplifying the abilities equations. Heck, I've never been able to make one for the drain on Tachyon Beam, Tetryon proc, or Tyken's drain, but he didn't have to go and lower the drains at the same time. Energy Siphon doesn't even have an Aux component that affects its drain, just the time duration.
ES1 drain = 9*(1+(0.01*Flow Caps))
ES2 drain =12*(1+(0.01*Flow Caps))
ES3 drain =15*(1+(0.01*Flow Caps))
Time duration (approx) = (Aux Power*0.133)+6.665
Partly, I'm glad he left subspace decompiler and countermeasure systems equations intact, although they did do some changes to any deflector that went over +70 on a single skill under the new system. Also noticed yesterday, some Ferengi minded players already scooped up anything in the Exchange they might be able to sell higher under the new combined skills. Was trying to buy a cheap deflector with certain combinations to see the Tribble equivalent.
You're not exactly protecting the Tactical side of the house, are you?
Yet the almighty FAW remains unsullied.
Well. not millions of Dilitium, but a few hundred thousand. And how about spending that on the weekend just before this all came out. Good timing on their part. An Upgrade Weekend where literally billions of EC, Dilitium, and the like are expended, and then saying 'boys and girls the times they are a'changing'. Hopefully, this gets straightened out as early bugs, otherwise the tin-foil hat brigade may question the scheduling behind all this.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Don't try to TRIBBLE others over because you are getting it.
The very best. The elite. Conspiracy theoriest, data miners, modders. You know all these ppl who create builds to maximize dps.
I guess these ppl could however just pve and faceroll. The game is what it is because of pvp. Do you think anyone would go out of there way to test a partical gen build to see how much dps it does on a npc. I didn't think so, STFU.
my point exactly. the handful of players dictating what the majority have to live with. The reason science got nerfed to hell while FAW gets stronger and stronger, so the Tacbabies don't cry foul and go running home to momma.
sigh
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Im not a sci but a tac, and sci was already once nerfed to hell , now they are going to do it again and yet your precious FAW is never touched.
Someone says nerf sci people like you are giggly happy, say nerf FAW and nerd rage erupts you should try to do more then just mash spacebar all the time.
I have not decided yet what I find worse, DPS elitism or sci power elitism.
Glad it stopped concerning me after dishing out 60k dps on science toons in science ships myself while crowed controlling and debuffing like carzy in pug runs. One of them is in the 70k+ reach but much seems to depend on teams for scis then already.
Please start using your brain peeps, a nerf to aux power would nerf everybody.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Oh, and: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scapegoat - since some of you need reminding, because there are less than a hundred PvPers left in STO, and the idea that Cryptic would adjust something because of PvP is utterly laughable as all you are doing is demonstrating your ignorance of what actually happens when PvPers ask for stuff.
If he decides that science deserves some nerfs, that would suck, but it would suck even more if science was nerfed because of bugs that no one bothered to report.
I have 6 science characters and I have to say, that this is quite frankly, TRIBBLE. Science has gotten lots of traits and special abilities lately to make it more potent. At least in the DPS department. All Hand on Deck, the new flagship traits. All the speciality torpedoes, the Research Fleet Holding and the new science gear - they all make science vessels more potent than they were before.
Cryptic might not have done much to reign in BFAW (though they did fix more issues with the Plasma Embassy consoles), but they did a lot to buff science.
If you willfully ignore these facts, then you do not appear to be either knowledgeable about the state of science, or as a dishonest participant in the discussion about science.
I am not saying that science is equal to escort/cruiser BFAW builds yet - I quite franky do not min/max enough to personally know the extreme ends. But it's not in a terrible state, and I think if BFAW are still more potent, then they need a nerf more than Science needs more buffs.
The area where Science is limited primarily now in my opinion is that it seems all about exotic damage. Placates, Confuses and Stuns are irrelevant, since they all focus on lowering the enemies offensive capabilities, and that is so low that no one worries about that.
Let's also be open here: In the past year, Science indeed has benefitted a lot. But notice it's really only one aspect that has in general.
Exotic Damage.
Stuff like Disables/Shutdowns, Confuses have no traction in PVE. Their effects in PVP had been nerfed back in 2011-2012. Science's highest, costliest skillboxes are also it's most worthless after their nerfs and it's been that way for years and has never recovered.
With the revamp adding corresponding resistances to the control abilities in Science, now is the time to make them relevant. If it doesn't happen now, it likely never will.
So nerf everything! Everything!
"Use Temporal Skills to NERF EVERYTHING before it happened!" -Unknown source.
And in turn, a lot of powers were improved. Hazard Emitters and Transfer Shield Strength were just plain broken then.
And most people from F2P probably don't remember any of that.
Yes, that's the problem. I am not sure that it can be fixed without adressing the NPCs themselves, though. Currently, NPCs are really just punching bags - sure, they fight back a bit, but disabling their firepower temporarily is not gonna do as much as adding more DPS to yourself.
Subnucleonic Beam might be the best example - in PvP it was always an ultra-potent power, because player defensive and offensive potential was determined by the buffs they had running. But against NPCs, there was barely something to dispel, their fire power was inherent. So that leaves something Jam Sensors or Scramble Sensors - but then, the firepower they have, is not anywhere as huge as the firepower players have.
Maybe a skill like Hazard emitters would actually deserve a nerf - not to nerf science, but to nerf player healing so they actually have to worry about incoming damage. But that would probably be misguided and ineffective - too much healing these days comes from set bonuses, consoles or traits - that's why people have so much space for DPS buffs. But of course, just increasing NPC damage buffing or base damage could lead to unsolvable problems - to survive longer, you need to sacrifice DPS buffs in favor of healing, but if you do that, you have to survive the enemy onslaught even longer.
Add more elites and you'll quickly find out that DPS isn't the end means to everything. In HSE for example many builds sacrifice a bit of DPS for more survivability. In my opinion, HSE builds are generally more balanced. The same goes for CPE.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
the subtle point i'm making which is being entirely ignored is that sci is closely monitored while tac is entirely left on the honor system to roam as it wishes.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Really, ? Allow me to quote myself from earlier in this thread...
He is level 57, and currently my primary character I'm playing.
Confucius say: "A closed mouth gathers no foot".
They already pulled that stunt n the past with a nerf to embassy plasma consoles. Upgrade weekend, the day it ends announce a nerf to them.
Oh this Thursday when it does live is just going to be awful!!!
How dear you Cryptic!
Oh wait. I just reread the blog, sounds like this revamp will be live in season 11.5 which is being released this spring.
we have to wait 4 plus weeks for this to go live, so there is time to work on all these changes, and get all the values correct.
*puts panic button away
Yes there a few skills like lucho said on the drain side that are being hit, but that may be adjusted correctly.
But are disables and confuse, placates are being greatly improved, along with the rift for a drain. GW seems to be about the same in turns of a pull and a hold. (pull distance may be sightly smaller, still testing)
PG builds were getting out of hand and needed to be reduced. If you built your build around PG then your were not being science. Sitting there using DRB while overcapping AUX power, using the pull doff on tbr is not science. Tacts jumping in a sci ship/pg build was op.
I am fine that tacts have to put almost everything in the tact to keep there bfaw dps builds up there, which will limit there usefulness in a sci/pg build.
To the point of healing. As some one already mentioned. Self healing was crazy in this game. HE, was the go to heal, and was crazy high. You can get HE3 to heal for 50k. AuxSif, HE was never suppose to be the main healing source over a engi team. Engi Team now becomes the main healing source on top of all that trait healing cheese.
I'm sorry but I disagree with that assertion.
If you build for Science abilities you are doing Science in this game. The skills are in the Science tree, therefore they are no more or less "Sciency" than Drain abilities. Your claim is as outlandish as me saying that if you are doing Drains, you are not doing Science.
That's like saying a Tac flying an Escort using primarily torpedoes is not running a tac oriented build because he isn't using beams or cannons.
Like a Tac oriented setup (tac options can include Torps/Cannons/Beams/Mines) there are different approaches to building for Science.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
Oh, and the Rift is the stupidest "power" ever, I refuse to use it. (on account of i'm sick of running around cleaning up the Terran mess left by people who do).