I wouldn't call doom yet on Drains. Apart from the Aux bug, they are also changing the way the main stat (DrainX from Flow) works/stacks. You guys may see double the DrainX points compared to your current FlowC so you may see a similar effect in the end.
I am thinking though, with the rolling-in of Insulators into the Drain stat, you'll have NPCs (especially the Borg, which seems to have very high Drain capabilities) that may be impervious to player-based Drains. You might get the same Drain numbers on the tooltip, but you might find yourselves trying to drain a more resistant target.
Except that you won't see double the DrainX points (go on, tell me you honestly think otherwise...) compared to flow caps because you only get half the flow caps to PIns through the new skill system.
With regard to the Borg, etc, this may make them less of an issue for most players... Further to this, Sci consoles which previously boosted flow caps now boost 'drain expertise' so there's literally no point in speccing hard into drains.
With 3x VR Embassy Mk XIV consoles granting 35.6 drain expertise each, you can just about push your drain from 'expertise' up by 106.8%, which is /just/ enough to get onto an equal footing with someone who only took the two points for the resist. Throw on whatever they then get from set bonus' and deflectors and the worth of drains just isn't there as an offensive measure any more.
It used to be a mechanic which lacked in some overall sense, now it's just flat out broken and stupid. Sure, it might help some pvpers, but frankly, who cares? If they didn't bring power insulators to their PvP party then they've a glaring weakness and should get on tweaking their build.
Aux bug fixed on Tribble. The biggest loosers so far.
1) Plasmonic Leech
2) Energy Siphon
Their crime?
Not scaling with Aux, so they got their slopes cut in half.
Actually, Siphon did scale with Aux, in terms of duration, exactly as it was meant to, and still does...
Oh, and that 'drain infection' skill? Utterly pointless. 268.5 damage to a max of once every 5 seconds and it isn't affected by Aux power level, 'drain' skill level or part gens. I can understand not applying it to the leech though... So, y'know, a small balancing skill to throw in and appease some people and it barely returns 54DPS. Wow, huge numbers there.
EDIT - Formatting
Also, still no Stats being shown in the ship window to get an idea of what's actually totaling up and no clear description on how subsystem power is meant to work now other than it's been nerfed to encourage skill point spends *shrug*
What everyone buying Zen are really saying while all these bugs are still floating freely:
Stop new content until quality returns
Ok spent an hour on tribble with my science captain now that we can copy from holo. Realy felt the nerf.
On holo my skills are spread far and wide but on tribble, even with dedicated skill builds my particle build felt about a 3rd as effective as it is on holo. My drain build went from effective to useless, and even my graviton build felt like its gravity well was lacking.
He's still making adjustments we just need to make a case for fixing them is all. Plasmonic Leech should be beat to death with a nerf club however.
I never fully understood the hate on the leech. The power drain on it is minimal and each stack is easily resisted with (if what I remember reading a long time ago was correct) about 6 pips in PIns, which was practically nothing for a T2 skill which most people should be taking for resisting other more commonly used abilities like TachyBeam anyway. In addition to that, even the power boost is minimal overall unless you actively boost your flow to a fairly high degree, like +100 flow caps on top of 99 from skill.
What everyone buying Zen are really saying while all these bugs are still floating freely:
Stop new content until quality returns
With a simple flow caps investment you get +16 to all subsystems and even more with the right deflector or universal console. The cost? A console slot... far too easy to cap power levels out.
With a simple flow caps investment you get +16 to all subsystems and even more with the right deflector or universal console. The cost? A console slot... far too easy to cap power levels out.
Though that is more an argument for nerfing the buff aspect, not the drain aspect.
But I agree that it's too effective for a mere single console.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
True I also suggested to borticus that if his reason for reducing the effectiveness of energy Siphon was because of the massive power bonus that I'd be happy for him to reduce that and keep the drain the same.
He's still making adjustments we just need to make a case for fixing them is all. Plasmonic Leech should be beat to death with a nerf club however.
I never fully understood the hate on the leech. The power drain on it is minimal and each stack is easily resisted with (if what I remember reading a long time ago was correct) about 6 pips in PIns, which was practically nothing for a T2 skill which most people should be taking for resisting other more commonly used abilities like TachyBeam anyway. In addition to that, even the power boost is minimal overall unless you actively boost your flow to a fairly high degree, like +100 flow caps on top of 99 from skill.
Way I see it, I'm evaluating the current revamp from the perspective of whether or not things have been nerfed, and not on whether I think something ought to be nerfed (entirely different discussion). And, near as I can tell, I see massive nerfs across the board. And I'm not liking it.
Aside from energy siphon and Plasmonic Leech everything else is aproximately the same. I'll know more when I play around with the new maximum skill points.
Once again I advise patience we have months to go before this hits holodeck and borticus is more than willing to listen to good constructive feedback.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
As I said in the Tribble thread science has always been a confusing mess for most people and they are attempting to clean up and simplify it so that players can better understand it. Obviously there will be growing pains so my best advice Is to give it time and offer good constructive criticism to borticus about what has been changed and whether not this is good. Try to make a good argumentative case for why the power(s) should/ shouldn't be adjusted and if so in what way.
Just a some damage numbers seen on prtg/EPG abilities I use daily, with 125 aux.
In holodeck:
Tyken's Rift 1: 1001,3
Destabilized Resonance Beam 2: 1989,4
Tractor Beam Repulsors 2: 2361
Gravity Well 3: 1585,5
In Tribble:
Tyken's Rift 1: 397,8
Destabilized Resonance Beam 2: 1176,3
Tractor Beam Repulsors 2: 1620,5
Gravity Well 3: 2033,3 (sic, GW seems the only exotic ability (at least from those I use) that gets a boost)
Both ships had exactly the same gear, so the prtg/EPG difference should be 1 point in favour to Tribble build (since Tribble skilltree gives +100 EPG when maxed, Holodeck +99 prtg.)
But yeah, as we see from these numbers, players lose nothing. (obvious sarcasm)
Just a some damage numbers seen on prtg/EPG abilities I use daily, with 125 aux.
In holodeck:
Tyken's Rift 1: 1001,3
Destabilized Resonance Beam 2: 1989,4
Tractor Beam Repulsors 2: 2361
Gravity Well 3: 1585,5
In Tribble:
Tyken's Rift 1: 397,8
Destabilized Resonance Beam 2: 1176,3
Tractor Beam Repulsors 2: 1620,5
Gravity Well 3: 2033,3 (sic, GW seems the only exotic ability (at least from those I use) that gets a boost)
Both ships had exactly the same gear, so the prtg/EPG difference should be 1 point in favour to Tribble build (since Tribble skilltree gives +100 EPG when maxed, Holodeck +99 prtg.)
But yeah, as we see from these numbers, players lose nothing. (obvious sarcasm)
^^ Listen to this man! He knows whereof he speaks.
True I also suggested to borticus that if his reason for reducing the effectiveness of energy Siphon was because of the massive power bonus that I'd be happy for him to reduce that and keep the drain the same.
I never fully understood the hate on the leech. The power drain on it is minimal and each stack is easily resisted with (if what I remember reading a long time ago was correct) about 6 pips in PIns, which was practically nothing for a T2 skill which most people should be taking for resisting other more commonly used abilities like TachyBeam anyway. In addition to that, even the power boost is minimal overall unless you actively boost your flow to a fairly high degree, like +100 flow caps on top of 99 from skill.
Way I see it, I'm evaluating the current revamp from the perspective of whether or not things have been nerfed, and not on whether I think something ought to be nerfed (entirely different discussion). And, near as I can tell, I see massive nerfs across the board. And I'm not liking it.
See, this is why I always thought power insulators should be more effective on a 1:1 ratio with flow with a long shallow curve of effectiveness nearest to that 1:1 sweet spot, which as near as I can tell it has never been. If that were the case then the power gain from drains could be based on what the resists manage to hold on to as well.
It's almost Deferi-like.
What everyone buying Zen are really saying while all these bugs are still floating freely:
Stop new content until quality returns
See, this is why I always thought power insulators should be more effective on a 1:1 ratio with flow with a long shallow curve of effectiveness nearest to that 1:1 sweet spot, which as near as I can tell it has never been. If that were the case then the power gain from drains could be based on what the resists manage to hold on to as well.
It's almost Deferi-like.
Tell you what, I always wanted them to code drain/buff mechanics to be realistic on a 1:1 ratio target drain versus self buff. Problem is, it would probably cause too much server lag.
Work in progress. Under review. Premature doomsaying.
If you want your feedback on this subject heard, it's best to keep it to the Tribble subforums, since the feature is currently there for testing and iteration.
But thanks for caring so much about it.
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Point is though, it's near impossible to get all the numbers together to form accurate feedback without, at least, the effective skill levels being shown in the Starship Stats tab. Ideally that would then be split to show what you're getting in terms of the current skill tree, example being Drain Expertise as opposed to the separate skills beneath it, in addition to those skills being separated out.
Total sidenote though; 'premature doomsaying'. 'Players are lose nothing'.
Yeeaaahhhh, about that... Until we have the numbers for direct comparisons, that's evasive at best or outright lying at worst.
What everyone buying Zen are really saying while all these bugs are still floating freely:
Stop new content until quality returns
Point is though, it's near impossible to get all the numbers together to form accurate feedback without, at least, the effective skill levels being shown in the Starship Stats tab. Ideally that would then be split to show what you're getting in terms of the current skill tree, example being Drain Expertise as opposed to the separate skills beneath it, in addition to those skills being separated out.
Total sidenote though; 'premature doomsaying'. 'Players are lose nothing'.
Yeeaaahhhh, about that... Until we have the numbers for direct comparisons, that's evasive at best or outright lying at worst.
Here. Not that hard to respec a toon with zero skill and no traits whatsoever active in Tribble, add equipment and add numbers, and then use Excel to figure out the equations.
Plasmonic Leech:
Flow 100 vs Drain 100 = 2 vs 1.5
Flow 200 vs Drain 200 = 3 vs 2
Flow 300 vs Drain 300 = 4 vs 2.5
Flow 400 vs Drain 400 = 5 vs 3
Flow 500 vs Drain 500 = 6 vs 4.5
Energy Siphon 1
Flow 100 vs Drain 100 = 18 vs 13.5
Flow 200 vs Drain 200 = 27 vs 18
Flow 300 vs Drain 300 = 36 vs 22.5
Flow 400 vs Drain 400 = 45 vs 27
Flow 500 vs Drain 500 = 54 vs 31.5
Energy Siphon 2
Flow 100 vs Drain 100 = 24 vs 18
Flow 200 vs Drain 200 = 36 vs 24
Flow 300 vs Drain 300 = 48 vs 30
Flow 400 vs Drain 400 = 60 vs 36
Flow 500 vs Drain 500 = 72 vs 42
Energy Siphon 3
Flow 100 vs Drain 100 = 30 vs 22.5
Flow 200 vs Drain 200 = 45 vs 30
Flow 300 vs Drain 300 = 60 vs 37.5
Flow 400 vs Drain 400 = 75 vs 45
Flow 500 vs Drain 500 = 90 vs 52.5
I'm literally in the process of redoing that at the moment, but with subsystem targeting and Tykens added to the list.
By 'numbers for direct comparison' I was meaning the actual skill values, which I'm guessing you're not using as Drain Expertise only returns half the flow caps boost while providing a full boost to PIns and Subsytem Repair.
What everyone buying Zen are really saying while all these bugs are still floating freely:
Stop new content until quality returns
I'm literally in the process of redoing that at the moment, but with subsystem targeting and Tykens added to the list.
By 'numbers for direct comparison' I was meaning the actual skill values, which I'm guessing you're not using as Drain Expertise only returns half the flow caps boost while providing a full boost to PIns and Subsytem Repair.
Subsystem targeting was left alone.
Tyken's Rift was changed on the Aux scaling front.
By 'numbers for direct comparison' I was meaning the actual skill values, which I'm guessing you're not using as Drain Expertise only returns half the flow caps boost while providing a full boost to PIns and Subsytem Repair.
And this, man-friends, is why I loved the old system: it was my choice to make, whether I wanted more Flow Caps, and nothing in Subsystem Repair (I'm a human Engineer, never needed it). And now the dumbed-down, consolidated skills revamp has taken said choice away from me, and I'm stuck with half my Flow Caps and completely unwanted Subsystem Repair points.
Not really (unless you prefer subsystem repair to batteries). They changed the choices, so it's subsystem repair vs batteries now.
I was referring to daiph's comment, that "Drain Expertise only returns half the flow caps boost while providing a full boost to PIns and Subsytem Repair."
Comments
He went all King Salomon on both, since they both boost power level. Snip both in half, problem solved for him. Drain boats be damned.
right, but -30 drain on a rift three.....perhaps time to drain using the rift
But the pull radius is about 4km/5km
Except that you won't see double the DrainX points (go on, tell me you honestly think otherwise...) compared to flow caps because you only get half the flow caps to PIns through the new skill system.
With regard to the Borg, etc, this may make them less of an issue for most players... Further to this, Sci consoles which previously boosted flow caps now boost 'drain expertise' so there's literally no point in speccing hard into drains.
With 3x VR Embassy Mk XIV consoles granting 35.6 drain expertise each, you can just about push your drain from 'expertise' up by 106.8%, which is /just/ enough to get onto an equal footing with someone who only took the two points for the resist. Throw on whatever they then get from set bonus' and deflectors and the worth of drains just isn't there as an offensive measure any more.
It used to be a mechanic which lacked in some overall sense, now it's just flat out broken and stupid. Sure, it might help some pvpers, but frankly, who cares? If they didn't bring power insulators to their PvP party then they've a glaring weakness and should get on tweaking their build.
Actually, Siphon did scale with Aux, in terms of duration, exactly as it was meant to, and still does...
Oh, and that 'drain infection' skill? Utterly pointless. 268.5 damage to a max of once every 5 seconds and it isn't affected by Aux power level, 'drain' skill level or part gens. I can understand not applying it to the leech though... So, y'know, a small balancing skill to throw in and appease some people and it barely returns 54DPS. Wow, huge numbers there.
EDIT - Formatting
Also, still no Stats being shown in the ship window to get an idea of what's actually totaling up and no clear description on how subsystem power is meant to work now other than it's been nerfed to encourage skill point spends *shrug*
Stop new content until quality returns
On holo my skills are spread far and wide but on tribble, even with dedicated skill builds my particle build felt about a 3rd as effective as it is on holo. My drain build went from effective to useless, and even my graviton build felt like its gravity well was lacking.
I am not liking this skill revamp one bit.
I never fully understood the hate on the leech. The power drain on it is minimal and each stack is easily resisted with (if what I remember reading a long time ago was correct) about 6 pips in PIns, which was practically nothing for a T2 skill which most people should be taking for resisting other more commonly used abilities like TachyBeam anyway. In addition to that, even the power boost is minimal overall unless you actively boost your flow to a fairly high degree, like +100 flow caps on top of 99 from skill.
Stop new content until quality returns
Though that is more an argument for nerfing the buff aspect, not the drain aspect.
But I agree that it's too effective for a mere single console.
Way I see it, I'm evaluating the current revamp from the perspective of whether or not things have been nerfed, and not on whether I think something ought to be nerfed (entirely different discussion). And, near as I can tell, I see massive nerfs across the board. And I'm not liking it.
Once again I advise patience we have months to go before this hits holodeck and borticus is more than willing to listen to good constructive feedback.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
In holodeck:
Tyken's Rift 1: 1001,3
Destabilized Resonance Beam 2: 1989,4
Tractor Beam Repulsors 2: 2361
Gravity Well 3: 1585,5
In Tribble:
Tyken's Rift 1: 397,8
Destabilized Resonance Beam 2: 1176,3
Tractor Beam Repulsors 2: 1620,5
Gravity Well 3: 2033,3 (sic, GW seems the only exotic ability (at least from those I use) that gets a boost)
Both ships had exactly the same gear, so the prtg/EPG difference should be 1 point in favour to Tribble build (since Tribble skilltree gives +100 EPG when maxed, Holodeck +99 prtg.)
But yeah, as we see from these numbers, players lose nothing. (obvious sarcasm)
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
^^ Listen to this man! He knows whereof he speaks.
See, this is why I always thought power insulators should be more effective on a 1:1 ratio with flow with a long shallow curve of effectiveness nearest to that 1:1 sweet spot, which as near as I can tell it has never been. If that were the case then the power gain from drains could be based on what the resists manage to hold on to as well.
It's almost Deferi-like.
Stop new content until quality returns
Tell you what, I always wanted them to code drain/buff mechanics to be realistic on a 1:1 ratio target drain versus self buff. Problem is, it would probably cause too much server lag.
If you want your feedback on this subject heard, it's best to keep it to the Tribble subforums, since the feature is currently there for testing and iteration.
But thanks for caring so much about it.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Biased.
Stop new content until quality returns
Point is though, it's near impossible to get all the numbers together to form accurate feedback without, at least, the effective skill levels being shown in the Starship Stats tab. Ideally that would then be split to show what you're getting in terms of the current skill tree, example being Drain Expertise as opposed to the separate skills beneath it, in addition to those skills being separated out.
Total sidenote though; 'premature doomsaying'. 'Players are lose nothing'.
Yeeaaahhhh, about that... Until we have the numbers for direct comparisons, that's evasive at best or outright lying at worst.
Stop new content until quality returns
Here. Not that hard to respec a toon with zero skill and no traits whatsoever active in Tribble, add equipment and add numbers, and then use Excel to figure out the equations.
Plasmonic Leech:
Flow 100 vs Drain 100 = 2 vs 1.5
Flow 200 vs Drain 200 = 3 vs 2
Flow 300 vs Drain 300 = 4 vs 2.5
Flow 400 vs Drain 400 = 5 vs 3
Flow 500 vs Drain 500 = 6 vs 4.5
Energy Siphon 1
Flow 100 vs Drain 100 = 18 vs 13.5
Flow 200 vs Drain 200 = 27 vs 18
Flow 300 vs Drain 300 = 36 vs 22.5
Flow 400 vs Drain 400 = 45 vs 27
Flow 500 vs Drain 500 = 54 vs 31.5
Energy Siphon 2
Flow 100 vs Drain 100 = 24 vs 18
Flow 200 vs Drain 200 = 36 vs 24
Flow 300 vs Drain 300 = 48 vs 30
Flow 400 vs Drain 400 = 60 vs 36
Flow 500 vs Drain 500 = 72 vs 42
Energy Siphon 3
Flow 100 vs Drain 100 = 30 vs 22.5
Flow 200 vs Drain 200 = 45 vs 30
Flow 300 vs Drain 300 = 60 vs 37.5
Flow 400 vs Drain 400 = 75 vs 45
Flow 500 vs Drain 500 = 90 vs 52.5
By 'numbers for direct comparison' I was meaning the actual skill values, which I'm guessing you're not using as Drain Expertise only returns half the flow caps boost while providing a full boost to PIns and Subsytem Repair.
Stop new content until quality returns
Subsystem targeting was left alone.
Tyken's Rift was changed on the Aux scaling front.
And this, man-friends, is why I loved the old system: it was my choice to make, whether I wanted more Flow Caps, and nothing in Subsystem Repair (I'm a human Engineer, never needed it). And now the dumbed-down, consolidated skills revamp has taken said choice away from me, and I'm stuck with half my Flow Caps and completely unwanted Subsystem Repair points.
Not really (unless you prefer subsystem repair to batteries). They changed the choices, so it's subsystem repair vs batteries now.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
You would think a single target drain attack should be effective on a single target than an AOE ability. Anywhere else in gaming, but not in STO.
I was referring to daiph's comment, that "Drain Expertise only returns half the flow caps boost while providing a full boost to PIns and Subsytem Repair."