Except that the creators of the Oxford English Dictionary did not create English - while writers working for hire for Paramount Studios (mostly Marc Okrand) did. (It was Okrand's decision not to have a hard "K" in the language, as he was tired of hearing all alien languages on TV being a string of hard consonants. The "tl" construction is a deliberate avoidance of the phoneme.)
he also determined there'd be no 'to be' in klingon until someone wanted to give the klinks a Shakespeare fetish. Either way, its evolved from something simple to something fully complex and viable as a language for anyone that wants to speak it.
Yeah, I think the group that filed this posted onto the r/StarTrek subreddit.
Even if the claim on the language gets struck down, there is still plenty to nail Axanar on... but, something seems fishy about this. They claim to have no affiliation to the case, and aren't taking a position, but the timing seems... odd.
Plus, I think CBS has every right to the language, since they own the IP the language is based on, the publisher the original dictionary was released through, and the movies/TV shows the language appears in. Any added words would be derivative, and potentially viewed as unofficial.
I disagree... considering its a full language and can be used to communicate complex concepts or everyday conversations, this would be akin to Oxford deciding that 'Queens English' belongs to them now.
Romulan would be much more murky imo, while there are some complex concepts, its still far too broken to be a full language. The problem boils down to what makes language something more than an author's concept? How much of it needs to be set down with full grammar rules, and written form? Klingon has all of these, enough to even translate Shakespeare. Romulan, Ferengi, etc do not. I've known people that spoke enough Klingon to have conversations, on everyday things. I've never met someone that could do that in another 'Trek' language.
The flip of this, is it can also have some interesting ramifications outside Axanar/Star Trek. In Star Wars the "basic" language has enough work done on it that you can use a properly made font to translate signs that were made in SWTOR and(iirc) KOTOR1&2 into english words/names. Can it be considered the property of Disney? Or has it grown too large?
The difference, is that Klingon is a deliberately constructed language, deliberately constructed for use in the franchise, it's as much CBS/Paramount's IP as the design of the Starfleet arrowhead...
I don't think a ruling will have much impact on contemporary uses of Klingon, afterall, it's not as if they'e going to have monitors following people to charge them for speaking Klingon, but, they might come down on anyone trying to use it for profit, such as Klingon phrases on unauthorized merch, or someone charging for teaching classes to learn Klingon...
Through his actions, Alec Peters has, potentially, truly ruined it all for everyone, as this could really impact how CBS/Paramount approaches fan productions of any kind. It might even impact on conventions, ie no use of Star Trek imagery without their direct approval or licencing... (if it were to be taken to an absolute extreme) That could result in an issue like the closure of many gun clubs in the UK following the changes in private ownership brought in after the Dunblane massacre... The clubs were not forced to close because clubs were outlawed, they were closed because many small clubs could not afford to implement the security protocols mandated, and that's how it could affect conventions, if a convention was required to pay a licencing fee, which they couldn't afford... So that could become an issue for a smaller convention which might not be able to afford a licencing fee...
Equally, say a fan goes up to Tim Russ, Noelle Hannibal or Jolene Blalock (or any other Trek actor) at a convention, and asks if they'll throw up a Vulcan salute while their photo is taken. Is the actor seriously expected to say; "Nyaah, the Vulcan salute is the intellectual property of CBS/Paramount Pictures and I'm not aloud to do that without their express permission..."
Congratulation, you now have a fan who is going to think the actor is a jerk who won't have a laugh at a convention, and probably won't want to cough up $$s for an autograph, which they would likely gladly have done if only the actor had thrown up the salute... Word gets around, and then that actor gets a reputation for being uppity with fans, so they don't get invited to future conventions...
Alec Peters has a lot to answer for, and deserves to be treated like a pariah...
Equally, say a fan goes up to Tim Russ, Noelle Hannibal or Jolene Blalock (or any other Trek actor) at a convention, and asks if they'll throw up a Vulcan salute while their photo is taken. Is the actor seriously expected to say; "Nyaah, the Vulcan salute is the intellectual property of CBS/Paramount Pictures and I'm not aloud to do that without their express permission..."
Congratulation, you now have a fan who is going to think the actor is a jerk who won't have a laugh at a convention, and probably won't want to cough up $$s for an autograph, which they would likely gladly have done if only the actor had thrown up the salute... Word gets around, and then that actor gets a reputation for being uppity with fans, so they don't get invited to future conventions...
Alec Peters has a lot to answer for, and deserves to be treated like a pariah...
lol. I think that might be a little too extreme. Somehow I don't think it will get to the point of the vulcan salute being "outlawed", at least not at conventions. Considering I think other shows have used the salute as a tribute to Star Trek, in and of itself I don't know that it can be claimed as a trademark/copyright.
Think of it this way, If I wanted to make a book set in England, That is cool. If I wanted to make a book about wizards, I probably could. If I wanted to make a book about a boy with the name "Harry Potter", odds are it wouldn't be a problem.
Now if I wanted to make a book set in England, about a boy wizard named Harry Potter, you can bet the wrath of JK Rowlings, would come down on me.
In most case that is how it works. Having a alien civilization with pointy ears, no biggy. Having an alien civilization based around logic. Meh, ok. But have a pointy eared humanoid alien race whose civilization is based around logic, and now you have a problem.
I think the individual elements aspect are just because Peters was being stupid in this "What copyright was violated" shtick. Either he knew full well what he was doing, and now is just desperate to get out of the legal messy he is in, or he is an idiot.
Honestly, part of me really wishes we could have seen Axanar. If Peters can actually say that vulcan was related to the greek (or is it roman?) god and in "no way" related to the Vulcan's in Star Trek with a straight face, then he is a better actor then I probably gave him credit for.
Yeah, I think the group that filed this posted onto the r/StarTrek subreddit.
Even if the claim on the language gets struck down, there is still plenty to nail Axanar on... but, something seems fishy about this. They claim to have no affiliation to the case, and aren't taking a position, but the timing seems... odd.
Plus, I think CBS has every right to the language, since they own the IP the language is based on, the publisher the original dictionary was released through, and the movies/TV shows the language appears in. Any added words would be derivative, and potentially viewed as unofficial.
I disagree... considering its a full language and can be used to communicate complex concepts or everyday conversations, this would be akin to Oxford deciding that 'Queens English' belongs to them now.
Romulan would be much more murky imo, while there are some complex concepts, its still far too broken to be a full language. The problem boils down to what makes language something more than an author's concept? How much of it needs to be set down with full grammar rules, and written form? Klingon has all of these, enough to even translate Shakespeare. Romulan, Ferengi, etc do not. I've known people that spoke enough Klingon to have conversations, on everyday things. I've never met someone that could do that in another 'Trek' language.
The flip of this, is it can also have some interesting ramifications outside Axanar/Star Trek. In Star Wars the "basic" language has enough work done on it that you can use a properly made font to translate signs that were made in SWTOR and(iirc) KOTOR1&2 into english words/names. Can it be considered the property of Disney? Or has it grown too large?
Technically the overall concept of the Klingon language is protected under IP laws. Going to your SW basic example, that font IS considered part of Disney's SW IP. Actually there's several alien languages for SW. Enjoy: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Writing
Yeah, I think the group that filed this posted onto the r/StarTrek subreddit.
Even if the claim on the language gets struck down, there is still plenty to nail Axanar on... but, something seems fishy about this. They claim to have no affiliation to the case, and aren't taking a position, but the timing seems... odd.
Plus, I think CBS has every right to the language, since they own the IP the language is based on, the publisher the original dictionary was released through, and the movies/TV shows the language appears in. Any added words would be derivative, and potentially viewed as unofficial.
I disagree... considering its a full language and can be used to communicate complex concepts or everyday conversations, this would be akin to Oxford deciding that 'Queens English' belongs to them now.
Romulan would be much more murky imo, while there are some complex concepts, its still far too broken to be a full language. The problem boils down to what makes language something more than an author's concept? How much of it needs to be set down with full grammar rules, and written form? Klingon has all of these, enough to even translate Shakespeare. Romulan, Ferengi, etc do not. I've known people that spoke enough Klingon to have conversations, on everyday things. I've never met someone that could do that in another 'Trek' language.
The flip of this, is it can also have some interesting ramifications outside Axanar/Star Trek. In Star Wars the "basic" language has enough work done on it that you can use a properly made font to translate signs that were made in SWTOR and(iirc) KOTOR1&2 into english words/names. Can it be considered the property of Disney? Or has it grown too large?
Technically the overall concept of the Klingon language is protected under IP laws. Going to your SW basic example, that font IS considered part of Disney's SW IP. Actually there's several alien languages for SW. Enjoy: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Writing
Thats kinda my point, where do ya draw the line? Tolkien's Elven language is pretty well developed but I've never seen a group of fans so obsessed with it they speak it. Klingon on the other hand I have seen people dress up in various degrees of horrid to great costumes and go from a con to a bar and have a blast speakin Klingon. When has the language transitioned from 'cool backdrop fluff' to 'living language'?
Yeah, I think the group that filed this posted onto the r/StarTrek subreddit.
Even if the claim on the language gets struck down, there is still plenty to nail Axanar on... but, something seems fishy about this. They claim to have no affiliation to the case, and aren't taking a position, but the timing seems... odd.
Plus, I think CBS has every right to the language, since they own the IP the language is based on, the publisher the original dictionary was released through, and the movies/TV shows the language appears in. Any added words would be derivative, and potentially viewed as unofficial.
I disagree... considering its a full language and can be used to communicate complex concepts or everyday conversations, this would be akin to Oxford deciding that 'Queens English' belongs to them now.
Romulan would be much more murky imo, while there are some complex concepts, its still far too broken to be a full language. The problem boils down to what makes language something more than an author's concept? How much of it needs to be set down with full grammar rules, and written form? Klingon has all of these, enough to even translate Shakespeare. Romulan, Ferengi, etc do not. I've known people that spoke enough Klingon to have conversations, on everyday things. I've never met someone that could do that in another 'Trek' language.
The flip of this, is it can also have some interesting ramifications outside Axanar/Star Trek. In Star Wars the "basic" language has enough work done on it that you can use a properly made font to translate signs that were made in SWTOR and(iirc) KOTOR1&2 into english words/names. Can it be considered the property of Disney? Or has it grown too large?
Technically the overall concept of the Klingon language is protected under IP laws. Going to your SW basic example, that font IS considered part of Disney's SW IP. Actually there's several alien languages for SW. Enjoy: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Writing
Thats kinda my point, where do ya draw the line? Tolkien's Elven language is pretty well developed but I've never seen a group of fans so obsessed with it they speak it.
Then you haven't met a lot of Tolkien fans. Liv Tyler learned to speak Qenya, the language of the high elves, for her role as Arwen Evenstar in LOTR. There are three distinct elven languages (Sindarin being the most common), with two alphabets, and there are people who've learned to write in both. (The writing on the One Ring uses the tengwar, or alphabet, of Feanor, although when pronounced it's in the Black Speech of Mordor.)
Where do you draw the line? It's simple. Was this language spoken in the world before an author invented it? If not, then it's a constructed language, and can be copyrighted and trademarked. (Technically, this could have happened to Esperanto - but its inventor wanted it to become a universal language, so deliberately did not file trademarks on it.) Heck, if I wanted to emulate the patois used in Heinlein's novel The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress (assuming I knew enough Russian to fill in the bits he didn't), his estate could theoretically come down on me like a rock dropped from orbit - probably wouldn't, but if they did the law would be on their side.
Shame, too, since Kraft was basically a one-man production crew. Interesting, too, that he blames Peters and Axanar for this.
Well, some people may not know this - but Tommy Kraft did do the majority of green screen composite post production work on Prelude to Axanar. I'll bet the C/P lawyers didn't think it would help their Copyright Infringement case against Axanar (and Alec Peters) if Mr. Kraft, who did the aforementioned composite work for Prelude to Axanar, was allowed to crowdfund and produce another Star Trek related fan film, while the Axanar case is still in litigation - so Mr. Kraft gets a 'friendly' C&D via Facebook; and wisely complies.
Ahhh, interesting indeed...
Yes. This little bit of information casts a whole new light on things.
If CBS is 'going after' those involved with Axanar productions; it may well be that things are not so grim for unrelated fan productions. Here's hoping.
Yeah, I'd seen that there were 'unnamed does' 'named'(ish, as in their existence acknowledged, not their identities given) in the original papers, and I'm sure the full legalese had something to do with considering them accessories/facilitators... What I find dsad, is the idea that the guy who designed the Aresand the Titan is getting black-lidted, for what he thought was a legit project to contribut to out of love of the franchise
How could Axanar (OR ANY Star Trek Fan Film) be considered 'legit' as they never received a license from CBS and EVERY fan film producer (even Alec Peters back in 2013) have said they realise CBS could come in and shut them down? A majority the Fan Film leads of other groups have said if CBS contacted them and asked them to cease production, they would. Tommy Kraft received such a request and replied.
Anyone who's done legitimate business on licensed IPs (or won a contest where they signed away their rights, etc.) KNOWS that any non-licenced project carries risk and I don't think Sean Tourangeau was unaware of this fact. I can understand why he's upset, but he's responsible for the decision he made when he designed the USS Ares for Alec Peters and Axanar Productions. He was well aware it was an unlicensed project. (And by selling models and woodcuts of the ship in their 'Donor Store' Axanar Productions and Alec Peters are the ones who really screwed over Sean Tourangeau; NOT CBS/Paramount.)
It's like the ludicrous lawsuit I've read about where people are trying to sue a firearms manufacterer, because their product was used to kill someone... By that logic, if someone drinks themself to death (ie alcohol poisoning) then the distillery which produced the booze should be sued... Ludicrous...
Not trying to derail this, or make this political, but what you just said is spot on. If someone intentionally uses their Ford Mustang to run someone over, no one's going to even consider sueing Ford, so why should Beretta get sued if one of their guns is used to shoot someone? As you said, ludicrous.
The only thing gun manufacturers should be liable for is personal injury -IF- a gun explodes in someone's hand, and it can be proven that it was defective.
Here's where your logic falls down. You know the inherent difference between a car and a handgun? Forget all the "symbol of freedom" NRA crapola: unlike a car which can be used to kill people, the design purpose of a handgun is to kill people. I suppose technically you could hunt with a handgun, but it's not designed for it and a rifle or shotgun works a hell of a lot better: the handgun's effective range is too short and its stopping power too low for much other than varmints or birds. A handgun is designed to be carried on your person as a rapidly usable and concealable weapon against other people.
A car's design purpose is to get you and your stuff from point A to point B. It's not even close to comparing apples to oranges, and I hate that cliche because apples and oranges are still both fruit. More like comparing apples to Xbox controllers.
All that said, I don't think suing gun manufacturers is an answer, but I think that for completely different reasons.
he also determined there'd be no 'to be' in klingon until someone affiliated with Paramount wanted to give the klinks a Shakespeare fetish. Either way, its evolved from something simple to something fully complex and viable as a language for anyone that wants to speak it.
Fixed that for you. It was Paramount/CBS licensees who made all the official post-Okrand additions to tlhIngan Hol, and the grammatical rules for deriving new words are laid down in a Paramount-copyrighted work. Ditto the Klingonaase language from The Final Reflection, and the Romulan language from Rihannsu: As a language created for a fictional work it is part of an intellectual property. Other people can add to it or derive new words, but these are still derivative works.
It doesn't mean there can't be fair use, but you can copyright (or trademark, or whatever the specific legal term is; I don't care) a conlang created for a work of fiction.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Shame, too, since Kraft was basically a one-man production crew. Interesting, too, that he blames Peters and Axanar for this.
Well, some people may not know this - but Tommy Kraft did do the majority of green screen composite post production work on Prelude to Axanar. I'll bet the C/P lawyers didn't think it would help their Copyright Infringement case against Axanar (and Alec Peters) if Mr. Kraft, who did the aforementioned composite work for Prelude to Axanar, was allowed to crowdfund and produce another Star Trek related fan film, while the Axanar case is still in litigation - so Mr. Kraft gets a 'friendly' C&D via Facebook; and wisely complies.
Ahhh, interesting indeed...
Yes. This little bit of information casts a whole new light on things.
If CBS is 'going after' those involved with Axanar productions; it may well be that things are not so grim for unrelated fan productions. Here's hoping.
Yeah, I'd seen that there were 'unnamed does' 'named'(ish, as in their existence acknowledged, not their identities given) in the original papers, and I'm sure the full legalese had something to do with considering them accessories/facilitators... What I find dsad, is the idea that the guy who designed the Aresand the Titan is getting black-lidted, for what he thought was a legit project to contribut to out of love of the franchise
How could Axanar (OR ANY Star Trek Fan Film) be considered 'legit' as they never received a license from CBS and EVERY fan film producer (even Alec Peters back in 2013) have said they realise CBS could come in and shut them down? A majority the Fan Film leads of other groups have said if CBS contacted them and asked them to cease production, they would. Tommy Kraft received such a request and replied.
Anyone who's done legitimate business on licensed IPs (or won a contest where they signed away their rights, etc.) KNOWS that any non-licenced project carries risk and I don't think Sean Tourangeau was unaware of this fact. I can understand why he's upset, but he's responsible for the decision he made when he designed the USS Ares for Alec Peters and Axanar Productions. He was well aware it was an unlicensed project. (And by selling models and woodcuts of the ship in their 'Donor Store' Axanar Productions and Alec Peters are the ones who really screwed over Sean Tourangeau; NOT CBS/Paramount.)
It's like the ludicrous lawsuit I've read about where people are trying to sue a firearms manufacterer, because their product was used to kill someone... By that logic, if someone drinks themself to death (ie alcohol poisoning) then the distillery which produced the booze should be sued... Ludicrous...
Not trying to derail this, or make this political, but what you just said is spot on. If someone intentionally uses their Ford Mustang to run someone over, no one's going to even consider sueing Ford, so why should Beretta get sued if one of their guns is used to shoot someone? As you said, ludicrous.
The only thing gun manufacturers should be liable for is personal injury -IF- a gun explodes in someone's hand, and it can be proven that it was defective.
Here's where your logic falls down. You know the inherent difference between a car and a handgun? Forget all the "symbol of freedom" NRA crapola: unlike a car which can be used to kill people, the design purpose of a handgun is to kill people. I suppose technically you could hunt with a handgun, but it's not designed for it and a rifle or shotgun works a hell of a lot better: the handgun's effective range is too short and its stopping power too low for much other than varmints or birds. A handgun is designed to be carried on your person as a rapidly usable and concealable weapon against other people.
A car's design purpose is to get you and your stuff from point A to point B. It's not even close to comparing apples to oranges, and I hate that cliche because apples and oranges are still both fruit. More like comparing apples to Xbox controllers.
All that said, I don't think suing gun manufacturers is an answer, but I think that for completely different reasons.
Still, handguns are intended for self defense, not murder, so their use in a crime is just as much an unintended use as those who use a car as a weapon. Even assault weapons are not intended expressly to kill people, there's a wide range of competition shooting they can and are used for, and with a little training they can be used for home defense as well (though most people are better off using a shotgun for this).
Efforts to sue manufacturers takes responsibility away from the actual killers, and that's wrong imo. Guns don't kill people, people kill people, and efforts to stop gun violence should focus on keeping guns away from criminals and the mentally ill, not sueing a business that created and sold a gun that is 100% legal.
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Equally, say a fan goes up to Tim Russ, Noelle Hannibal or Jolene Blalock (or any other Trek actor) at a convention, and asks if they'll throw up a Vulcan salute while their photo is taken. Is the actor seriously expected to say; "Nyaah, the Vulcan salute is the intellectual property of CBS/Paramount Pictures and I'm not aloud to do that without their express permission..."
Congratulation, you now have a fan who is going to think the actor is a jerk who won't have a laugh at a convention, and probably won't want to cough up $$s for an autograph, which they would likely gladly have done if only the actor had thrown up the salute... Word gets around, and then that actor gets a reputation for being uppity with fans, so they don't get invited to future conventions...
Alec Peters has a lot to answer for, and deserves to be treated like a pariah...
lol. I think that might be a little too extreme. Somehow I don't think it will get to the point of the vulcan salute being "outlawed", at least not at conventions. Considering I think other shows have used the salute as a tribute to Star Trek, in and of itself I don't know that it can be claimed as a trademark/copyright.
Think of it this way, If I wanted to make a book set in England, That is cool. If I wanted to make a book about wizards, I probably could. If I wanted to make a book about a boy with the name "Harry Potter", odds are it wouldn't be a problem.
Now if I wanted to make a book set in England, about a boy wizard named Harry Potter, you can bet the wrath of JK Rowlings, would come down on me.
In most case that is how it works. Having a alien civilization with pointy ears, no biggy. Having an alien civilization based around logic. Meh, ok. But have a pointy eared humanoid alien race whose civilization is based around logic, and now you have a problem.
I think the individual elements aspect are just because Peters was being stupid in this "What copyright was violated" shtick. Either he knew full well what he was doing, and now is just desperate to get out of the legal messy he is in, or he is an idiot.
Honestly, part of me really wishes we could have seen Axanar. If Peters can actually say that vulcan was related to the greek (or is it roman?) god and in "no way" related to the Vulcan's in Star Trek with a straight face, then he is a better actor then I probably gave him credit for.
Absolutely, but if the case is made that the Axanar Works breach their IP, they are going to have to be more vigilant about policing infringements in the future, or they'll leave themselves open to a countersuit that they were simoly shutting down Axanar out of spite and fear of a threat to Beyond and the new series... A bit like the urban legend of Disney sandblasting the walls of children's wards which have had Disney characters painted on them: If they don't go after every infringement, it weakens their case when they try and go against after a specific infringement... I agree, it is an extreme example, but potentially, it could come to it... Or conventions having to pay significant fees for using any kind of Star Trek imagery in their advertising... They can only recoup so much of that in ticket sales, because if ticket prices are too high, people won't attend, even if it is to see their favorite actor... This is why I believe that Alec Peters has potentially ruined it all for everyone... I hope I'm wrong, but I can see how it could wind up...
Not trying to derail this, or make this political, but what you just said is spot on. If someone intentionally uses their Ford Mustang to run someone over, no one's going to even consider sueing Ford, so why should Beretta get sued if one of their guns is used to shoot someone? As you said, ludicrous.
Here's where your logic falls down. You know the inherent difference between a car and a handgun? Forget all the "symbol of freedom" NRA crapola: unlike a car which can be used to kill people, the design purpose of a handgun is to kill people.
Efforts to sue manufacturers takes responsibility away from the actual killers, and that's wrong imo. Guns don't kill people, people kill people, and efforts to stop gun violence should focus on keeping guns away from criminals and the mentally ill, not sueing a business that created and sold a gun that is 100% legal.
Well, it's like you said, people don't NEED guns to kill people.
Ooh, a gun debate. Never seen one of them on the internet before.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
You know, I had a whole well-thought-out argument which I was trying real hard not to post, but this is funnier.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
A year ?!?! I don't want to wait that long to see Alec Peters hung out to dry... :-\
Lets be honest, May is just when the trail starts. I expect this litigation to go on for a while as Peters concocts some other lame story about how he isn't violating CBS/Paramount copyright.
He might even be waiting for his non-profit status, which I am SURE is going to happen ANY day now.
A year ?!?! I don't want to wait that long to see Alec Peters hung out to dry... :-\
Lets be honest, May is just when the trail starts. I expect this litigation to go on for a while as Peters concocts some other lame story about how he isn't violating CBS/Paramount copyright.
He might even be waiting for his non-profit status, which I am SURE is going to happen ANY day now.
Even if by some miracle he does get it, it won't help him any.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
A year ?!?! I don't want to wait that long to see Alec Peters hung out to dry... :-\
Lets be honest, May is just when the trail starts. I expect this litigation to go on for a while as Peters concocts some other lame story about how he isn't violating CBS/Paramount copyright.
He might even be waiting for his non-profit status, which I am SURE is going to happen ANY day now.
Even if by some miracle he does get it, it won't help him any.
Don't tell him that, he thinks that's his 'get out of jail free' card
A year ?!?! I don't want to wait that long to see Alec Peters hung out to dry... :-\
Lets be honest, May is just when the trail starts. I expect this litigation to go on for a while as Peters concocts some other lame story about how he isn't violating CBS/Paramount copyright.
He might even be waiting for his non-profit status, which I am SURE is going to happen ANY day now.
If the case isn't dismissed (and no I don't think it will be, but that's what the Hearing of May 9. 2016 will determine) - and If there isn't a settlement prior to May 2017 (if there is you can be 100% certain that it will include the Axanar feature NOT being made/produced and Peters and Co. being forced to give up their Studio/Warehouse as the LAST message C/P want to send is "Use our Star Trek IP illegally and when we take you to court we'll settle to the point you can legitimately finish your project and keep any financial/personal gain you obtained..."); the trial itself will probably take about two weeks.
Oh, and don't read anything into C/P's request for 'Alternate Dispute Resolution' <--- That was something the Judge ORDERED C/P to do - so they did it. It's true that both sides will go - and the Magistrate will talk to each of them individually trying to see what either side might be willing to do to come to a settlement -- BUT, a settlement IS NOT required; and if the magistrate quickly determines one side or the other really doesn't want to settle; the mediation will end with no settlement and the magistrate will state 'no settlement reached', sign the form; which will be submitted back to the Judge and the Discovery phase will proceed.
One 'ADR' session is something the majority of Civil Judges (and this is a Civil law case) require before they'll allow a trial to proceed. This is because actual trials take time - and the state doesn't usually recoup the entire costs of a trial; so most Judge's want something on the record to show they tried to get the litigants to settle before proceeding to a full trial. And if one side or the other flatly refuses to go and request at least one ADR session, the Judge will usually respond with "You know, I COULD just issue a summary Judgement..." so these days both sides 'go through the motions' even if one or the other know they DON'T want to settle, they want their day in court - which they are entitled to.
Post edited by crypticarmsman on
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Well, there are things that could happen, but yeah, there's no way C/P are going to let Axanar go forward, unless Peters gives them the some/all profits.
I don't even see that happening, because it would mean that Peters would "win," in a way. I don't think that C/P really cares about canon, per se, but I do think they care about some hack-producer that weaseled his way into dictating officially licensed productions.
I think it's either Axanar wins the case, or it won't get made.
I don't see either side making a settlement. C/P isn't going to settle for anything less then Peters being barred from all things Star Trek, and I don't see Peters agreeing to that (not to mention the whole admittion of guilt that would go along with that).
Make no mistake, this is going to get ugly (well uglier)
Yeah, C/P is definitely not going to let Peters get any money off of this.
And if CBS/Paramount clean him out in damages, he's going to have a hard time refunding the kickstarter supporters, so will be lined up for a class-action/convention lynching
Yeah, C/P is definitely not going to let Peters get any money off of this.
And if CBS/Paramount clean him out in damages, he's going to have a hard time refunding the kickstarter supporters, so will be lined up for a class-action/convention lynching
Well, the good news for Peters is if C/P has their way, it will most likely include barring him from any and all Star Trek Conventions. So he is probably safe from any lynchings.
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I don't think a ruling will have much impact on contemporary uses of Klingon, afterall, it's not as if they'e going to have monitors following people to charge them for speaking Klingon, but, they might come down on anyone trying to use it for profit, such as Klingon phrases on unauthorized merch, or someone charging for teaching classes to learn Klingon...
Through his actions, Alec Peters has, potentially, truly ruined it all for everyone, as this could really impact how CBS/Paramount approaches fan productions of any kind. It might even impact on conventions, ie no use of Star Trek imagery without their direct approval or licencing... (if it were to be taken to an absolute extreme) That could result in an issue like the closure of many gun clubs in the UK following the changes in private ownership brought in after the Dunblane massacre... The clubs were not forced to close because clubs were outlawed, they were closed because many small clubs could not afford to implement the security protocols mandated, and that's how it could affect conventions, if a convention was required to pay a licencing fee, which they couldn't afford... So that could become an issue for a smaller convention which might not be able to afford a licencing fee...
Equally, say a fan goes up to Tim Russ, Noelle Hannibal or Jolene Blalock (or any other Trek actor) at a convention, and asks if they'll throw up a Vulcan salute while their photo is taken. Is the actor seriously expected to say; "Nyaah, the Vulcan salute is the intellectual property of CBS/Paramount Pictures and I'm not aloud to do that without their express permission..."
Congratulation, you now have a fan who is going to think the actor is a jerk who won't have a laugh at a convention, and probably won't want to cough up $$s for an autograph, which they would likely gladly have done if only the actor had thrown up the salute... Word gets around, and then that actor gets a reputation for being uppity with fans, so they don't get invited to future conventions...
Alec Peters has a lot to answer for, and deserves to be treated like a pariah...
lol. I think that might be a little too extreme. Somehow I don't think it will get to the point of the vulcan salute being "outlawed", at least not at conventions. Considering I think other shows have used the salute as a tribute to Star Trek, in and of itself I don't know that it can be claimed as a trademark/copyright.
Think of it this way, If I wanted to make a book set in England, That is cool. If I wanted to make a book about wizards, I probably could. If I wanted to make a book about a boy with the name "Harry Potter", odds are it wouldn't be a problem.
Now if I wanted to make a book set in England, about a boy wizard named Harry Potter, you can bet the wrath of JK Rowlings, would come down on me.
In most case that is how it works. Having a alien civilization with pointy ears, no biggy. Having an alien civilization based around logic. Meh, ok. But have a pointy eared humanoid alien race whose civilization is based around logic, and now you have a problem.
I think the individual elements aspect are just because Peters was being stupid in this "What copyright was violated" shtick. Either he knew full well what he was doing, and now is just desperate to get out of the legal messy he is in, or he is an idiot.
Honestly, part of me really wishes we could have seen Axanar. If Peters can actually say that vulcan was related to the greek (or is it roman?) god and in "no way" related to the Vulcan's in Star Trek with a straight face, then he is a better actor then I probably gave him credit for.
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Thats kinda my point, where do ya draw the line? Tolkien's Elven language is pretty well developed but I've never seen a group of fans so obsessed with it they speak it. Klingon on the other hand I have seen people dress up in various degrees of horrid to great costumes and go from a con to a bar and have a blast speakin Klingon. When has the language transitioned from 'cool backdrop fluff' to 'living language'?
Where do you draw the line? It's simple. Was this language spoken in the world before an author invented it? If not, then it's a constructed language, and can be copyrighted and trademarked. (Technically, this could have happened to Esperanto - but its inventor wanted it to become a universal language, so deliberately did not file trademarks on it.) Heck, if I wanted to emulate the patois used in Heinlein's novel The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress (assuming I knew enough Russian to fill in the bits he didn't), his estate could theoretically come down on me like a rock dropped from orbit - probably wouldn't, but if they did the law would be on their side.
Here's where your logic falls down. You know the inherent difference between a car and a handgun? Forget all the "symbol of freedom" NRA crapola: unlike a car which can be used to kill people, the design purpose of a handgun is to kill people. I suppose technically you could hunt with a handgun, but it's not designed for it and a rifle or shotgun works a hell of a lot better: the handgun's effective range is too short and its stopping power too low for much other than varmints or birds. A handgun is designed to be carried on your person as a rapidly usable and concealable weapon against other people.
A car's design purpose is to get you and your stuff from point A to point B. It's not even close to comparing apples to oranges, and I hate that cliche because apples and oranges are still both fruit. More like comparing apples to Xbox controllers.
All that said, I don't think suing gun manufacturers is an answer, but I think that for completely different reasons.
Fixed that for you. It was Paramount/CBS licensees who made all the official post-Okrand additions to tlhIngan Hol, and the grammatical rules for deriving new words are laid down in a Paramount-copyrighted work. Ditto the Klingonaase language from The Final Reflection, and the Romulan language from Rihannsu: As a language created for a fictional work it is part of an intellectual property. Other people can add to it or derive new words, but these are still derivative works.
It doesn't mean there can't be fair use, but you can copyright (or trademark, or whatever the specific legal term is; I don't care) a conlang created for a work of fiction.
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Still, handguns are intended for self defense, not murder, so their use in a crime is just as much an unintended use as those who use a car as a weapon. Even assault weapons are not intended expressly to kill people, there's a wide range of competition shooting they can and are used for, and with a little training they can be used for home defense as well (though most people are better off using a shotgun for this).
Efforts to sue manufacturers takes responsibility away from the actual killers, and that's wrong imo. Guns don't kill people, people kill people, and efforts to stop gun violence should focus on keeping guns away from criminals and the mentally ill, not sueing a business that created and sold a gun that is 100% legal.
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BAN THE BULLETS!!
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Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
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Fingers also kill people when they press upon triggers.
The same could be said of the hangman. Hangmen don't kill people... ROPES do!
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OUTLAW PEOPLE!
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http://1701news.com/node/1174/axanar-trial-coming-may-2017.html
So, next Monday is a big day... and, a potential trial in 2017.
EDIT TO ADD: Here is AxaMonitor's breakdown - http://blueserif.com/doku/doku.php?id=joint_statement
However, the judge could agree to a summary judgement in favor of CBS/Paramount next week... so, there's that.
Fingers crossed
Lets be honest, May is just when the trail starts. I expect this litigation to go on for a while as Peters concocts some other lame story about how he isn't violating CBS/Paramount copyright.
He might even be waiting for his non-profit status, which I am SURE is going to happen ANY day now.
Even if by some miracle he does get it, it won't help him any.
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If the case isn't dismissed (and no I don't think it will be, but that's what the Hearing of May 9. 2016 will determine) - and If there isn't a settlement prior to May 2017 (if there is you can be 100% certain that it will include the Axanar feature NOT being made/produced and Peters and Co. being forced to give up their Studio/Warehouse as the LAST message C/P want to send is "Use our Star Trek IP illegally and when we take you to court we'll settle to the point you can legitimately finish your project and keep any financial/personal gain you obtained..."); the trial itself will probably take about two weeks.
Oh, and don't read anything into C/P's request for 'Alternate Dispute Resolution' <--- That was something the Judge ORDERED C/P to do - so they did it. It's true that both sides will go - and the Magistrate will talk to each of them individually trying to see what either side might be willing to do to come to a settlement -- BUT, a settlement IS NOT required; and if the magistrate quickly determines one side or the other really doesn't want to settle; the mediation will end with no settlement and the magistrate will state 'no settlement reached', sign the form; which will be submitted back to the Judge and the Discovery phase will proceed.
One 'ADR' session is something the majority of Civil Judges (and this is a Civil law case) require before they'll allow a trial to proceed. This is because actual trials take time - and the state doesn't usually recoup the entire costs of a trial; so most Judge's want something on the record to show they tried to get the litigants to settle before proceeding to a full trial. And if one side or the other flatly refuses to go and request at least one ADR session, the Judge will usually respond with "You know, I COULD just issue a summary Judgement..." so these days both sides 'go through the motions' even if one or the other know they DON'T want to settle, they want their day in court - which they are entitled to.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
My character Tsin'xing
I think it's either Axanar wins the case, or it won't get made.
Make no mistake, this is going to get ugly (well uglier)
My character Tsin'xing
Well, the good news for Peters is if C/P has their way, it will most likely include barring him from any and all Star Trek Conventions. So he is probably safe from any lynchings.
Class-action might be another story though.