(...)they are built into the Earth Starfleet charter (so are an official organisation in the 22nd century), (...)
Na-ah! That's a misconception right there, at least in my opinion. The organization claims ther legitimization is based on that article which itself is just a political phrase as treaties and charters have them and I can very well seeing united earth being xenophobic and paranoid around aliens back then, but that's not the point.
Just because you claim you interpret a certain document a way to legitimize your actions does not say this charter in any way shape or form establishes the organization as anything official and in fact all their appearances in the PU speak a different language. I never said they don't have reactionaire supporters in high positions, a illuminati-esque shady spy organization usually has that, but I never get the feeling they are official. Behind the scenes indes it is clearly spelled out that S31 are supposed to be villians and their uniforms are meant to be Gestapo-style ones. If anything, the "heroization" S31 received post 9/11 (the train ENT jumped ultimately) is really disheartening in my opinion, but that is not a part of this discussion and I digress
Also, the CIA comparision lacks, as all real-life - Star Trek comparisions do. Besides, nobody says that CIA actions are legitimate just because they are official. I think there is some merit in the assumption that existence of the CIA does earn the US more distrust and precaution even with their allies as opposed to support. It doesn't matter ebcause biggest stick and all, but still
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Blurgh fell asleep, took a while to read up, no I didn't posted it to get a rise out of people, I really wanted to know what people think about a weapon designed specifically to torture.
Yes inflicting pain and even horrid wounds cannot be avoided at all times during war. But even there weapons designed to inflict pain and grievous harms are banned by international treaties like the Geneva convention.
Napalm, chemical weapons and dum dum rounds as well as directed energy weapons, actually every weapon which would cause undue suffering, incidentally the CIA and some other law enforcement, use both chemical weapons and expanding bullets, For example air marshals(not the gas, the bullets) but those are a exception because a shot penetrating that terrorist or hijacker and then smashes trough the passenger chamber's outer hull would lead to catastrophic events. This ain't a wahh wahh usa evil statement but rather a example why agencies like the cia or section 31 cannot be trusted.
PS : it's not the agonizer rifle I'm worried about, but what it's design stands for. Which is why I'm glad that weapon's like that are banned and shunned by most of the international community world wide X_X''
ktamradio If you are looking for some nice music while playing clicky clicky click!
I don't see S31 as inherently evil. It's who's in charge that's the problem. Luther Sloan was *pauses to think* a total TRIBBLE. Adm. Marcus was power-hungry. Both took S31 in a direction that was decidedly not in the Federation's best interests.
Franklin Drake, however, has given me no reason to suspect that he's done anything that is anything but beneficial to the Federation, and he hasn't made me do anything unethical, so as long as he runs the show, I have no problem with S31.
You mean like luring half a dozen Federation ships into their doom to distract a Klingon Ship from following him?
No, he's a swell guy. You're right.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I take official to mean that some people outside Section 31 knows that it exists, too. If not, it isn't official. There must be some form of governmental oversight, and it's extremely unlikely that it's such a secret that high ranking (Captains, Admirals) of Starfleet itself wouldn't know about its existence. And Admiral Ross seems to originally only consider it a myth or rumor.
Why would they need to know? Starfleet's intelligence service is SI, the Federation's is S31. And Ross is even working with them. So either he just found out about them or was lying to Sisko earlier.
In the alternate timeline, they have that. It is not something that happens all the time, but unofficial and even illegal organizations can become part of the government, or create a completely new one. Such an organization would need to find the right allies and contact the right channels. But it helps that Section 31 recruits from Starfleet itself, it's not like it is an outside group of total strangers.
In the Prime timeline, they don't seem to have star ships or ship production facilities. But they seem to have Admirals that look the other way.
Like who? And, how do you know. They clearly have ships, they have a possibly cloaked holoship in the episode where Slone recruits Bashir, a ship style also used by Starfleet (Insurrection). And there's nothing to suggest that Ross is doing anything other thank taking orders from S31, he's certainly not acting like a man who's working with an illegal guerilla organisation.
Starfleet already has an Intelligence service, however, and it does stuff like undercover operations (be it O'Brien under cover in the Orion Syndicate, or Picard on Celtris III). SO the are definitely not the Federation intelligence serve. At best "a" ontelligence service, like the agency letter soup the US has. But event here, the letter agencies are officially known, we just don't know necessarily who is part of it, and what their operations are.
In the same way GCHQ is not MI5, S31 is not SI. One is the intelligence department of Starfleet and the other of the Federation. As the Federation has no military it makes sense they'd pick people like O'Brien from inside Starfleet for missions, that would a SI mission.
Franklin Drake, however, has given me no reason to suspect that he's done anything that is anything but beneficial to the Federation
In the beginning of the Klingon story, Drake gets a Galaxy class destroyed with all hands lost, then does the same thing to a trio of light battlegroups that he lures into a Klingon ambush to cover his escape. It ends with upwards of a dozen vessels lost, thousands dead, and numerous senior officers captured.
"Beneficial to the Federation" my TRIBBLE.
Section 31 is the Trek equivalent to Cerberus, and Drake himself needs to be hanged.
Sure, because the CIA would never do something like that, right?
(...)they are built into the Earth Starfleet charter (so are an official organisation in the 22nd century), (...)
Na-ah! That's a misconception right there, at least in my opinion. The organization claims ther legitimization is based on that article which itself is just a political phrase as treaties and charters have them and I can very well seeing united earth being xenophobic and paranoid around aliens back then, but that's not the point.
Just because you claim you interpret a certain document a way to legitimize your actions does not say this charter in any way shape or form establishes the organization as anything official and in fact all their appearances in the PU speak a different language. I never said they don't have reactionaire supporters in high positions, a illuminati-esque shady spy organization usually has that, but I never get the feeling they are official.
It makes them as official as it's possible to be. They are grounded in the founding articles that's as legitimate as it's possible to be. How they interpret their mandate is and maybe questionable but their legitimacy isn't.
Behind the scenes indes it is clearly spelled out that S31 are supposed to be villians and their uniforms are meant to be Gestapo-style ones. If anything, the "heroization" S31 received post 9/11 (the train ENT jumped ultimately) is really disheartening in my opinion, but that is not a part of this discussion and I digress
They're only villains in the sense they have different methods towards the same goals as the heroes. This is from the show where one of the protagonists tortured another to near breaking point and another fired biogenic weapons at a Federation colony to prevent a war. They may be dressed as villains but they are no less a shade of grey than Garak, or Odo, or Sisko himself.
Also, the CIA comparision lacks, as all real-life - Star Trek comparisions do. Besides, nobody says that CIA actions are legitimate just because they are official. I think there is some merit in the assumption that existence of the CIA does earn the US more distrust and precaution even with their allies as opposed to support. It doesn't matter ebcause biggest stick and all, but still
I'm not sure how to respond here. Legitimate and official are practically synonymous. Both the CIA and S31 are both. Are their actions justifiable is a better question, and an immense debate all to itself.
How S31 acts isn't reflection on whether the organisation is official, only if its actions are official.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
It makes them as official as it's possible to be. They are grounded in the founding articles that's as legitimate as it's possible to be. How they interpret their mandate is and maybe questionable but their legitimacy isn't.
(...)
I'm not sure how to respond here. Legitimate and official are practically synonymous. Both the CIA and S31 are both. Are their actions justifiable is a better question, and an immense debate all to itself.
How S31 acts isn't reflection on whether the organisation is official, only if its actions are official.
How does that make them official? If I form a citizen militia and claim it's based on the constitution that says it's dedicated to the welfare of my people and throw every person not of my people I find on the street out of that country via that citizen militia it is in no way official. I really can't follow why someone citing and interpreting in a personal way a part of a charter is suddenly official because he or she choses to do so.
The legitimate and official mix-up is based on a misconception of English, I apologize. In German, "legitimate" ("legitim") is used in a moral sense while official is more of a legal term (offiziell, legal). English appearantly uses "legitimate" as both "lawful" legitimate and morally legitimate. So "justifiable" is the word I was looking for.
On that other bit about S31 being "Federation" I find that unlikely. The UFP has Federation Security as a canonical service, albeit without any hints at what it's tasks are other than getting McCoy back to Starfleet, a task that in reality would be Starfleet's responsibility (judging by German laws if we assume Starfleet is the military), everything else is specualtion. Starfleet Intelligence took the external responsibilitis of the V'Shar, the Vulcan (civilian?) intelligence service, suggesting that if Federation Security is only directed internally (the V'Shar still exists, though, internally), Starfleet Intelligence takes the external duties, placing S31 in no official position and as I said before, they don't seem official at all to me looking at what the shows presented. Keep in mind here that Star Trek's universe does not follow present day rules and Starfleet is arguably not a military service as more of a paramilitary 'minuteman/militia' kind of thing, so there's no clear distinction between "military" and "civilian" which is also shown in Starfleet chasing civilian criminals.
Ross' deeds do not make sense if the whole organization could just use official channels, to me it seems like a personal interest here which illustrates how deep admirality has been infiltrated by S31 symathizers. Keep in mind Star Trek has the Admiral play the internal villian basically every time they appear on-screen to remind us to question authority. The events of "Insurrection" never mention S31, assuming a certainly not written connection is pure speculation like other isntances organizations are not clearly mentioned, for example the Tal'Shiar and Romulan Intelligence. Synonyms? Possible, but pure speculation.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
It makes them as official as it's possible to be. They are grounded in the founding articles that's as legitimate as it's possible to be. How they interpret their mandate is and maybe questionable but their legitimacy isn't.
(...)
I'm not sure how to respond here. Legitimate and official are practically synonymous. Both the CIA and S31 are both. Are their actions justifiable is a better question, and an immense debate all to itself.
How S31 acts isn't reflection on whether the organisation is official, only if its actions are official.
How does that make them official? If I form a citizen militia and claim it's based on the constitution that says it's dedicated to the welfare of my people and throw every person not of my people I find on the street out of that country via that citizen militia it is in no way official. I really can't follow why someone citing and interpreting in a personal way a part of a charter is suddenly official because he or she choses to do so.
By Sloane's description, they operate without any oversight and don't report to anyone. I cannot really think of an organization that could be considered part of a government but allowed to operate like that and could still be considered legitmiate. If there is no one they report to, if they get caught, there is also no one that would have the possibility to confirm their actions as legal - other than perhaps a judge that deems the particular action the Section 31 member(s) did that they were caught in was after all in accordance with Starfleet regulations and/or Federation law.
That just isn't an "official government" agency, no matter if you're inspired by some Section of the current or former Starfleet Charter. It's really just a group of like-minded people ignoring, bending or breaking rules do something they think needs to be done. Doesn't mean they would not get into trouble if they get caught.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
How does that make them official? If I form a citizen militia and claim it's based on the constitution that says it's dedicated to the welfare of my people and throw every person not of my people I find on the street out of that country via that citizen militia it is in no way official. I really can't follow why someone citing and interpreting in a personal way a part of a charter is suddenly official because he or she choses to do so.
The militia is legitimate, your actions may not be. There are unlikely to be legal provisions to allow such powers to be held by the citizenry even if a militia is formed. Basically the law supersedes the constitution.
On that other bit about S31 being "Federation" I find that unlikely. The UFP has Federation Security as a canonical service, albeit without any hints at what it's tasks are other than getting McCoy back to Starfleet, a task that in reality would be Starfleet's responsibility (judging by German laws if we assume Starfleet is the military), everything else is specualtion. Starfleet Intelligence took the external responsibilitis of the V'Shar, the Vulcan (civilian?) intelligence service, suggesting that if Federation Security is only directed internally (the V'Shar still exists, though, internally), Starfleet Intelligence takes the external duties, placing S31 in no official position and as I said before, they don't seem official at all to me looking at what the shows presented. Keep in mind here that Star Trek's universe does not follow present day rules and Starfleet is arguably not a military service as more of a paramilitary 'minuteman/militia' kind of thing, so there's no clear distinction between "military" and "civilian" which is also shown in Starfleet chasing civilian criminals.
Federation Security are the police not an intelligence bureau. The police are often tasked with assisting the military, whether the military proper or the military police. I have not seen Gambit (the appearance of the V'Shar) though it seems divorced from the Federation existing solely as the Vulcan intelligence service.
As for using the evidence of, Starfleet Security=Internal intelligence and Starfleet Intelligence=External intelligence. British Intelligence consists of MI5, MI6, DI, GCHQ, and the SIS. The US has about 20 of them. There is room in the Federation for S31 irrespective of what other organisations exist.
Ross' deeds do not make sense if the whole organization could just use official channels, to me it seems like a personal interest here which illustrates how deep admirality has been infiltrated by S31 symathizers. Keep in mind Star Trek has the Admiral play the internal villian basically every time they appear on-screen to remind us to question authority. The events of "Insurrection" never mention S31, assuming a certainly not written connection is pure speculation like other isntances organizations are not clearly mentioned, for example the Tal'Shiar and Romulan Intelligence. Synonyms? Possible, but pure speculation.
It makes sense if his aim is to keep S31 off the radar. The War was forcing them to undertake more public missions instead of sticking to the shadows, the whole Inter Armin Whatsit plot was to keep it as far into the shadows as they could as well as replacing their mole.
I didn't say they were behind Insurrection in canon, simply that similar technology appeared in both. Bashir is captured aboard a Federation ship orbiting DS9 that is presumably cloaked and has a holodeck. In Insurrection the Bak'u are evacuated using a cloaked holoship.
It's always possible that S31 is simply an organisation that has infiltrated Starfleet Command, but that line of reasoning is unnecessary and is contradicted by ENT and ID.
By Sloane's description, they operate without any oversight and don't report to anyone. I cannot really think of an organization that could be considered part of a government but allowed to operate like that and could still be considered legitmiate. If there is no one they report to, if they get caught, there is also no one that would have the possibility to confirm their actions as legal - other than perhaps a judge that deems the particular action the Section 31 member(s) did that they were caught in was after all in accordance with Starfleet regulations and/or Federation law.
That just isn't an "official government" agency, no matter if you're inspired by some Section of the current or former Starfleet Charter. It's really just a group of like-minded people ignoring, bending or breaking rules do something they think needs to be done. Doesn't mean they would not get into trouble if they get caught.
In practice who do governments report to? Intelligence organisations? Effectively nobody. However many times parliaments or senates change the civil service remains the same. Beyond controlling their budget governments have little effect on intelligence services, especially when it comes to foreign operations.
Besides it's likely Slone is telling the truth. It's an all out war, the largest and most devastating the Federation has ever seen. You know how stupidly under prepared they are, even after Wolf 359. The Federation would be the first union to let it's Intel department loose to solve it by any means necessary to keep up the charade of utopia.
And if they get caught and punished because they're breaking the law, fine, still no different from the CIA. Intelligence operatives are seldom immune from the law unless it's a matter of national security. I'm sure that if Slone was caught he'd 'disappear' before being brought to trial.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Blurgh fell asleep, took a while to read up, no I didn't posted it to get a rise out of people, I really wanted to know what people think about a weapon designed specifically to torture.
Yes inflicting pain and even horrid wounds cannot be avoided at all times during war. But even there weapons designed to inflict pain and grievous harms are banned by international treaties like the Geneva convention.
Napalm, chemical weapons and dum dum rounds as well as directed energy weapons, actually every weapon which would cause undue suffering, incidentally the CIA and some other law enforcement, use both chemical weapons and expanding bullets, For example air marshals(not the gas, the bullets) but those are a exception because a shot penetrating that terrorist or hijacker and then smashes trough the passenger chamber's outer hull would lead to catastrophic events. This ain't a wahh wahh usa evil statement but rather a example why agencies like the cia or section 31 cannot be trusted.
PS : it's not the agonizer rifle I'm worried about, but what it's design stands for. Which is why I'm glad that weapon's like that are banned and shunned by most of the international community world wide X_X''
I can understand your concern with the weapon and you have the choice not to use it if you don't approve of it, I wont be using it myself for the same reason but you lost all credibility in your opening comment when you asked for the hand in option with regard to swapping it for the shotgun, this makes it look like you couldn't give two hoots what the weapon does all you are after is the chance to get the shotgun that you would rather have and obviously missed on some or all of your characters before for whatever reason.
just fortunate for you that you had a valid argument regarding the weapon itself and if it had not been for the shotgun request I am sure you would have found a lot of posters more supportive.
maybe even enough to get cryptic to substitute the rifle for some other less offensive item.
Post edited by bobbydazlers on
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
Blurgh fell asleep, took a while to read up, no I didn't posted it to get a rise out of people, I really wanted to know what people think about a weapon designed specifically to torture.
Yes inflicting pain and even horrid wounds cannot be avoided at all times during war. But even there weapons designed to inflict pain and grievous harms are banned by international treaties like the Geneva convention.
Napalm, chemical weapons and dum dum rounds as well as directed energy weapons, actually every weapon which would cause undue suffering, incidentally the CIA and some other law enforcement, use both chemical weapons and expanding bullets, For example air marshals(not the gas, the bullets) but those are a exception because a shot penetrating that terrorist or hijacker and then smashes trough the passenger chamber's outer hull would lead to catastrophic events. This ain't a wahh wahh usa evil statement but rather a example why agencies like the cia or section 31 cannot be trusted.
PS : it's not the agonizer rifle I'm worried about, but what it's design stands for. Which is why I'm glad that weapon's like that are banned and shunned by most of the international community world wide X_X''
I can understand your concern with the weapon and you have the choice not to use it if you don't approve of it, I wont be using it myself for the same reason but you lost all credibility in your opening comment when you asked for the hand in option with regard to swapping it for the shotgun, this makes it look like you couldn't give two hoots what the weapon does all you are after is the chance to get the shotgun that you would rather have and obviously missed on some or all of your characters before for whatever reason.
just fortunate for you that you had a valid argument regarding the weapon itself and if it had not been for the shotgun request I am sure you would have found a lot of posters more supportive.
maybe even enough to get cryptic to substitute the rifle for some other less offensive item.
yeah it was a first thought as a alternative, albeit a poor thought out one X_X, I like the museum display one to catch up on events and seasons much better but I don't think I can just go back and alter the original post a day later X_X
ktamradio If you are looking for some nice music while playing clicky clicky click!
It's one thing to shoot someone because they are your enemy, but seriously? A weapon that entraps you, and tortures you to death while unable to move? Sorry Game or not this goes way to far for me O_O
PLEAAAASE Cryptic can't you add a hand in option to switch it for the mirror shotgun? This thing is just too sick.
Anyway the rifle is not offensive at all. It's a video game. Fantasy / reality divide.
But my fantasy character might be out of character if he used it. Sure, I know it's not real, but I do like my fiction self-consistent.
I wasn't able to participate in the event due to computer trouble (ended up with a replaced motherboard...thank God for the warranty), but if I had, I would've recycled the weapon in the replicator and thought of it as seizing and neutralizing dangerous contraband, kind of like the Varon-T disruptor.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Next thing you know, there will be complaints about the TR-116's because the brass casings that the weapon ejects contributes to littering.
My complaint about the TR-116 is it's brokenly overpowered and needs it's shield pen reduced to 50% if not removed.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Rifle smifle....the least of my adversaries worries is this rifle when I am using my alien death squad away team. This rifle is more humane than the romulan flamethrower LOL
Anyway the rifle is not offensive at all. It's a video game. Fantasy / reality divide.
But my fantasy character might be out of character if he used it. Sure, I know it's not real, but I do like my fiction self-consistent.
I wasn't able to participate in the event due to computer trouble (ended up with a replaced motherboard...thank God for the warranty), but if I had, I would've recycled the weapon in the replicator and thought of it as seizing and neutralizing dangerous contraband, kind of like the Varon-T disruptor.
I have discarded mine however it can still reclaimed from the dilithium store not that I ever will while it has the agony setting.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
i always prefered the Man Opener from The Pitt; nothing like slicing into your target with a handheld circular saw
guess there's nothing like that in FO4
Not sure yet, haven't gotten that far into the game yet, I have picked up an electrified sword.
you didn't perchance get it from a chinese officer named jingwei, did you? or even a chinese officer in general - be a nice operation anchorage reference if it was
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
i always prefered the Man Opener from The Pitt; nothing like slicing into your target with a handheld circular saw
guess there's nothing like that in FO4
I modded my copy of New Vegas to have a Zebra Carbine from the story Fallout: Equestria. First Legion guy I shot with it... exploded into flaming chunks.
Literally. First Guy.
I lol'd and went on a Legion hunting rampage with that and an M41A Pulse Rifle and Nova's hairstyle from StarCraft.
i always prefered the Man Opener from The Pitt; nothing like slicing into your target with a handheld circular saw
guess there's nothing like that in FO4
I modded my copy of New Vegas to have a Zebra Carbine from the story Fallout: Equestria. First Legion guy I shot with it... exploded into flaming chunks.
Literally. First Guy.
I lol'd and went on a Legion hunting rampage with that and an M41A Pulse Rifle and Nova's hairstyle from StarCraft.
you sure that was from the gun and not the bloody mess perk? because i don't think anything can make bodies explode without it
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Comments
Na-ah! That's a misconception right there, at least in my opinion. The organization claims ther legitimization is based on that article which itself is just a political phrase as treaties and charters have them and I can very well seeing united earth being xenophobic and paranoid around aliens back then, but that's not the point.
Just because you claim you interpret a certain document a way to legitimize your actions does not say this charter in any way shape or form establishes the organization as anything official and in fact all their appearances in the PU speak a different language. I never said they don't have reactionaire supporters in high positions, a illuminati-esque shady spy organization usually has that, but I never get the feeling they are official. Behind the scenes indes it is clearly spelled out that S31 are supposed to be villians and their uniforms are meant to be Gestapo-style ones. If anything, the "heroization" S31 received post 9/11 (the train ENT jumped ultimately) is really disheartening in my opinion, but that is not a part of this discussion and I digress
Also, the CIA comparision lacks, as all real-life - Star Trek comparisions do. Besides, nobody says that CIA actions are legitimate just because they are official. I think there is some merit in the assumption that existence of the CIA does earn the US more distrust and precaution even with their allies as opposed to support. It doesn't matter ebcause biggest stick and all, but still
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Yes inflicting pain and even horrid wounds cannot be avoided at all times during war. But even there weapons designed to inflict pain and grievous harms are banned by international treaties like the Geneva convention.
Napalm, chemical weapons and dum dum rounds as well as directed energy weapons, actually every weapon which would cause undue suffering, incidentally the CIA and some other law enforcement, use both chemical weapons and expanding bullets, For example air marshals(not the gas, the bullets) but those are a exception because a shot penetrating that terrorist or hijacker and then smashes trough the passenger chamber's outer hull would lead to catastrophic events. This ain't a wahh wahh usa evil statement but rather a example why agencies like the cia or section 31 cannot be trusted.
PS : it's not the agonizer rifle I'm worried about, but what it's design stands for. Which is why I'm glad that weapon's like that are banned and shunned by most of the international community world wide X_X''
No, he's a swell guy. You're right.
Why would they need to know? Starfleet's intelligence service is SI, the Federation's is S31. And Ross is even working with them. So either he just found out about them or was lying to Sisko earlier.
Like who? And, how do you know. They clearly have ships, they have a possibly cloaked holoship in the episode where Slone recruits Bashir, a ship style also used by Starfleet (Insurrection). And there's nothing to suggest that Ross is doing anything other thank taking orders from S31, he's certainly not acting like a man who's working with an illegal guerilla organisation.
In the same way GCHQ is not MI5, S31 is not SI. One is the intelligence department of Starfleet and the other of the Federation. As the Federation has no military it makes sense they'd pick people like O'Brien from inside Starfleet for missions, that would a SI mission.
Sure, because the CIA would never do something like that, right?
It makes them as official as it's possible to be. They are grounded in the founding articles that's as legitimate as it's possible to be. How they interpret their mandate is and maybe questionable but their legitimacy isn't.
They're only villains in the sense they have different methods towards the same goals as the heroes. This is from the show where one of the protagonists tortured another to near breaking point and another fired biogenic weapons at a Federation colony to prevent a war. They may be dressed as villains but they are no less a shade of grey than Garak, or Odo, or Sisko himself.
I'm not sure how to respond here. Legitimate and official are practically synonymous. Both the CIA and S31 are both. Are their actions justifiable is a better question, and an immense debate all to itself.
How S31 acts isn't reflection on whether the organisation is official, only if its actions are official.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
How does that make them official? If I form a citizen militia and claim it's based on the constitution that says it's dedicated to the welfare of my people and throw every person not of my people I find on the street out of that country via that citizen militia it is in no way official. I really can't follow why someone citing and interpreting in a personal way a part of a charter is suddenly official because he or she choses to do so.
The legitimate and official mix-up is based on a misconception of English, I apologize. In German, "legitimate" ("legitim") is used in a moral sense while official is more of a legal term (offiziell, legal). English appearantly uses "legitimate" as both "lawful" legitimate and morally legitimate.
On that other bit about S31 being "Federation" I find that unlikely. The UFP has Federation Security as a canonical service, albeit without any hints at what it's tasks are other than getting McCoy back to Starfleet, a task that in reality would be Starfleet's responsibility (judging by German laws if we assume Starfleet is the military), everything else is specualtion. Starfleet Intelligence took the external responsibilitis of the V'Shar, the Vulcan (civilian?) intelligence service, suggesting that if Federation Security is only directed internally (the V'Shar still exists, though, internally), Starfleet Intelligence takes the external duties, placing S31 in no official position and as I said before, they don't seem official at all to me looking at what the shows presented. Keep in mind here that Star Trek's universe does not follow present day rules and Starfleet is arguably not a military service as more of a paramilitary 'minuteman/militia' kind of thing, so there's no clear distinction between "military" and "civilian" which is also shown in Starfleet chasing civilian criminals.
Ross' deeds do not make sense if the whole organization could just use official channels, to me it seems like a personal interest here which illustrates how deep admirality has been infiltrated by S31 symathizers. Keep in mind Star Trek has the Admiral play the internal villian basically every time they appear on-screen to remind us to question authority. The events of "Insurrection" never mention S31, assuming a certainly not written connection is pure speculation like other isntances organizations are not clearly mentioned, for example the Tal'Shiar and Romulan Intelligence. Synonyms? Possible, but pure speculation.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
By Sloane's description, they operate without any oversight and don't report to anyone. I cannot really think of an organization that could be considered part of a government but allowed to operate like that and could still be considered legitmiate. If there is no one they report to, if they get caught, there is also no one that would have the possibility to confirm their actions as legal - other than perhaps a judge that deems the particular action the Section 31 member(s) did that they were caught in was after all in accordance with Starfleet regulations and/or Federation law.
That just isn't an "official government" agency, no matter if you're inspired by some Section of the current or former Starfleet Charter. It's really just a group of like-minded people ignoring, bending or breaking rules do something they think needs to be done. Doesn't mean they would not get into trouble if they get caught.
The militia is legitimate, your actions may not be. There are unlikely to be legal provisions to allow such powers to be held by the citizenry even if a militia is formed. Basically the law supersedes the constitution.
Federation Security are the police not an intelligence bureau. The police are often tasked with assisting the military, whether the military proper or the military police. I have not seen Gambit (the appearance of the V'Shar) though it seems divorced from the Federation existing solely as the Vulcan intelligence service.
As for using the evidence of, Starfleet Security=Internal intelligence and Starfleet Intelligence=External intelligence. British Intelligence consists of MI5, MI6, DI, GCHQ, and the SIS. The US has about 20 of them. There is room in the Federation for S31 irrespective of what other organisations exist.
It makes sense if his aim is to keep S31 off the radar. The War was forcing them to undertake more public missions instead of sticking to the shadows, the whole Inter Armin Whatsit plot was to keep it as far into the shadows as they could as well as replacing their mole.
I didn't say they were behind Insurrection in canon, simply that similar technology appeared in both. Bashir is captured aboard a Federation ship orbiting DS9 that is presumably cloaked and has a holodeck. In Insurrection the Bak'u are evacuated using a cloaked holoship.
It's always possible that S31 is simply an organisation that has infiltrated Starfleet Command, but that line of reasoning is unnecessary and is contradicted by ENT and ID.
In practice who do governments report to? Intelligence organisations? Effectively nobody. However many times parliaments or senates change the civil service remains the same. Beyond controlling their budget governments have little effect on intelligence services, especially when it comes to foreign operations.
Besides it's likely Slone is telling the truth. It's an all out war, the largest and most devastating the Federation has ever seen. You know how stupidly under prepared they are, even after Wolf 359. The Federation would be the first union to let it's Intel department loose to solve it by any means necessary to keep up the charade of utopia.
And if they get caught and punished because they're breaking the law, fine, still no different from the CIA. Intelligence operatives are seldom immune from the law unless it's a matter of national security. I'm sure that if Slone was caught he'd 'disappear' before being brought to trial.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
I can understand your concern with the weapon and you have the choice not to use it if you don't approve of it, I wont be using it myself for the same reason but you lost all credibility in your opening comment when you asked for the hand in option with regard to swapping it for the shotgun, this makes it look like you couldn't give two hoots what the weapon does all you are after is the chance to get the shotgun that you would rather have and obviously missed on some or all of your characters before for whatever reason.
just fortunate for you that you had a valid argument regarding the weapon itself and if it had not been for the shotgun request I am sure you would have found a lot of posters more supportive.
maybe even enough to get cryptic to substitute the rifle for some other less offensive item.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
yeah it was a first thought as a alternative, albeit a poor thought out one X_X, I like the museum display one to catch up on events and seasons much better
But my fantasy character might be out of character if he used it.
I wasn't able to participate in the event due to computer trouble (ended up with a replaced motherboard...thank God for the warranty), but if I had, I would've recycled the weapon in the replicator and thought of it as seizing and neutralizing dangerous contraband, kind of like the Varon-T disruptor.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Most unexpectedly, this turned into a flame-fest! Closed it goes!. /sigh What flamefestery is this? pwlaughingtrendy
My complaint about the TR-116 is it's brokenly overpowered and needs it's shield pen reduced to 50% if not removed.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
There. All better.
I have discarded mine however it can still reclaimed from the dilithium store not that I ever will while it has the agony setting.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
guess there's nothing like that in FO4
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
you didn't perchance get it from a chinese officer named jingwei, did you? or even a chinese officer in general - be a nice operation anchorage reference if it was
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I modded my copy of New Vegas to have a Zebra Carbine from the story Fallout: Equestria. First Legion guy I shot with it... exploded into flaming chunks.
Literally.
First Guy.
I lol'd and went on a Legion hunting rampage with that and an M41A Pulse Rifle and Nova's hairstyle from StarCraft.
you sure that was from the gun and not the bloody mess perk? because i don't think anything can make bodies explode without it
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
-3rd Commmandment of Chivalry
My Jem Hadar rifle will take out most enemies, in moderate range, about 50% quicker than my TR-116A will.