Agony Rifle = weaponized torture as a event reward?? turn in option please.

jadicus

mustrumridcully0 wrote: »

jadicus wrote: »

angrytarg wrote: »

jadicus wrote: »

Dunno where people get the idea that starfleet wouldn't use it. Section 31 is there (the id to the starfleet ego). Also the mirror Zefram Cochrane shotgun is a +10 to hit and quadruple dmg vs Vulcans

S31 is not Starfleet nor anything else. Them using the weapon is not an argument for or against anything.​​

As S31 is an organization whose authority is derived from the Starfleet Charter, the part is one with the body, so S31 is starfleet,

The Earth Starfleet charter. We don't know if that is the same charter as Federation Starfleet. And it seems in fact very unlikely, because if Section 31 is a real part of Federation Starfleet's charter and thus actually sanctioned, than Bashir trapping and killing an agent of Section 31 to sabotage a Section 31 operation would have had serious repercussions, no matter how black ops Sloane was.

The "Earth" Starfleet charter has never been replaced. There is no "we don't know" until they write it in canon. Starfleet acts in conjunction with the Federation, kind of like how sometimes the US acts as the the de-facto world police, except that Starfleet allows other federation species to join its ranks. Remember, other members of the federation still have their own fleets, earth just happens to have the biggest guns.

As for Bashir, no one's gonna kill off a major character unless he wanted to leave the show or the he was a problem actor, so of course there weren't gonna be "major repercussions" for our weekly heroes As for S31 being "officially sanctioned"....look there's a bird! /brings out stun gun.

jadicus

angrytarg wrote: »

jadicus wrote: »

(...) So, now that it's established that they're as much starfleet as captain fancypants, then YES there IS and Argument for them using it.

By my authority I hereby declare that my previous explanation overrules your theory and thus your point is null and void

Seriously, nothing you say can be "established". You have to be very ignorant to the things actually happening on-screen to set S31 (a villian organisation for DS9) and Starfleet on equal footing.​​

Sooo, you say you can't refute the charter. okay then, we're done

artan42

I can't be bothered to read the S31 arguments or who's arguing what, but S31 is an official Federation. They have a starbase in the Sol system and enough resources to build a Dreadnought there. They are in the charter of Earth Starfleet, an organisation that the Federation Starfleet is directly descended from.​​

ltminns

Use the d*mn gun or don't use it. This moralizing over what, a Tool Tip and pixels and its affect on pixel characters in a video game is head scratching to say the least. We have already killed probably hundreds of thousands of (Fill in the Blank) sentient beings in a plethora of different ways and this gun is a problem?

Perhaps the most apropos comment comes from another fictional genre, the movie 'Aliens'

Frost: 'Hey, what the hell are we supposed to use man? Harsh Language?'

potasssium

I gave up arguing when they let us have Thalaron Weapons on the Scimitar.

One reason only 2 of my 12 characters are Feds. Now give my Klingons some Pain Sticks please.

Now I could see Section 31 use this, but not proper Starfleet Officers.

xyquarze

ltminns wrote: »

This moralizing over what, a Tool Tip and pixels and its affect on pixel characters in a video game is head scratching to say the least.

Maybe it is in this case. But generally I strongly disagree. Especially considering that it does happen regularily that less stable people get stupid ideas from media. Which is also their fault, but then we have to see whether the risk was really necessary just for some kicks for some.

(And no, I certainly do not mean the "School shooter played Doom, computer games make you murderers" argument, which indeed is silly.)

angrytarg

jadicus wrote: »

Sooo, you say you can't refute the charter. okay then, we're done

You argument is based on the assumption that UFP Starfleet is the exact same service than UE Starfleet and the "charter" never changed in centuries. This assumption is based on nothing but the name being the same, the Federation charter indes does heavily emphasize a non-human centric view of the UFP and was last cited in Voyager. Both of it is speculative but I can't see merit in your argumentation.

artan42 wrote: »

I can't be bothered to read the S31 arguments or who's arguing what, but S31 is an official Federation. They have a starbase in the Sol system and enough resources to build a Dreadnought there. They are in the charter of Earth Starfleet, an organisation that the Federation Starfleet is directly descended from.

Non of that is relevant for the prime timeline and STO, however. ID is based on "everything being grimdark and terrible" after Vulcan's destruction and S31 finding the Botany Bay and using Sherlock Khan to build weapons and, ultimately, the Vengeance. Nothing of that happened in the relevant timeline, though.​​

gradii

Section 31 is no more villainous than the CIA. It's a fringe organization which uses questionable means sometimes, but is a necessity. Doesn't mean theyre liked by my characters who might happen to know they do exist, but as a player I understand they're far from plain "Evil"

artan42

angrytarg wrote: »

Non of that is relevant for the prime timeline and STO, however. ID is based on "everything being grimdark and terrible" after Vulcan's destruction and S31 finding the Botany Bay and using Sherlock Khan to build weapons and, ultimately, the Vengeance. Nothing of that happened in the relevant timeline, though.

Doesn't matter. Starfleet doesn't take a look at an unofficial organisation and say, 'You know what, let's make them official and give them all the resources they need to build their own superweapons in our backyard.​​

gradii

artan42 wrote: »

angrytarg wrote: »

Non of that is relevant for the prime timeline and STO, however. ID is based on "everything being grimdark and terrible" after Vulcan's destruction and S31 finding the Botany Bay and using Sherlock Khan to build weapons and, ultimately, the Vengeance. Nothing of that happened in the relevant timeline, though.

Doesn't matter. Starfleet doesn't take a look at an unofficial organisation and say, 'You know what, let's make them official and give them all the resources they need to build their own superweapons in our backyard.​​

Those superweapons were never built in the prime universe so yeah angrytarg's argument on that point has merit

artan42

gradii wrote: »

artan42 wrote: »

angrytarg wrote: »

Non of that is relevant for the prime timeline and STO, however. ID is based on "everything being grimdark and terrible" after Vulcan's destruction and S31 finding the Botany Bay and using Sherlock Khan to build weapons and, ultimately, the Vengeance. Nothing of that happened in the relevant timeline, though.

Doesn't matter. Starfleet doesn't take a look at an unofficial organisation and say, 'You know what, let's make them official and give them all the resources they need to build their own superweapons in our backyard.

Those superweapons were never built in the prime universe so yeah angrytarg's argument on that point has merit

Why does it matter what they're building? They're still building military hardware in the Sol system, so unless Starfleet is stupid they have authorisation. If they have authorisation they're an official Federation department.

S31 has to have the same structure and position in both universes unless you think that a rogue guerilla organisation will suddenly be turned into the Federations intelligence agency all because Nero killed Kirk senior.​​

gradii

artan42 wrote: »

gradii wrote: »

artan42 wrote: »

angrytarg wrote: »

Non of that is relevant for the prime timeline and STO, however. ID is based on "everything being grimdark and terrible" after Vulcan's destruction and S31 finding the Botany Bay and using Sherlock Khan to build weapons and, ultimately, the Vengeance. Nothing of that happened in the relevant timeline, though.

Doesn't matter. Starfleet doesn't take a look at an unofficial organisation and say, 'You know what, let's make them official and give them all the resources they need to build their own superweapons in our backyard.

Those superweapons were never built in the prime universe so yeah angrytarg's argument on that point has merit

Why does it matter what they're building? They're still building military hardware in the Sol system, so unless Starfleet is stupid they have authorisation. If they have authorisation they're an official Federation department.

S31 has to have the same structure and position in both universes unless you think that a rogue guerilla organisation will suddenly be turned into the Federations intelligence agency all because Nero killed Kirk senior.​​

I don't think section 31 is some rouge evil organization. I agree with your general point. However they're not strictly out in the open either, they're very back channel, hence why my goodie 2 shoes fed CHARACTERS who happen to also know they exist hate them.

themetalstickman

shadowfang240 wrote: »

angrytarg wrote: »

I don't know and highly doubt Klingons would show too much concern about unnecessary pain for their enemies

they do; the varon-t was banned for exactly that reason

Were those banned in the Empire?​​

angrytarg

artan42 wrote: »

Doesn't matter. Starfleet doesn't take a look at an unofficial organisation and say, 'You know what, let's make them official and give them all the resources they need to build their own superweapons in our backyard.

JJ-Starfleet also likes to run around in fascistoid uniforms and equips their starships with on-board breweries, so I don't know about that...

Seriously though, you cannot use the AR to draw conclusions in the prime universe, it's the reason they called it an AR to begin with. And since we are to believe that over there everything's different and starships use machine guns I also believe that S31 extremists might have completely taken over official channels. But in any case, even if the whole thing would hold true for the prime universe in the 23rd century as well, entering DS9 in the 24th century the situation is obviously different (you know, when S31 was actually invented for the show and it's still the most recent (trek history) view ont he organization. From a storytelling point of view, in my opinion, there's not much doubt about S31's rogue and extremist nature. Other than that story and the whole ENT madness, we know nothing about S31 and every participation in other events or position about them is pure fan speculation. So there's not much to work with, really.​​

artan42

angrytarg wrote: »

artan42 wrote: »

Doesn't matter. Starfleet doesn't take a look at an unofficial organisation and say, 'You know what, let's make them official and give them all the resources they need to build their own superweapons in our backyard.

JJ-Starfleet also likes to run around in fascistoid uniforms and equips their starships with on-board breweries, so I don't know about that...

Seriously though, you cannot use the AR to draw conclusions in the prime universe, it's the reason they called it an AR to begin with. And since we are to believe that over there everything's different and starships use machine guns I also believe that S31 extremists might have completely taken over official channels. But in any case, even if the whole thing would hold true for the prime universe in the 23rd century as well, entering DS9 in the 24th century the situation is obviously different (you know, when S31 was actually invented for the show and it's still the most recent (trek history) view ont he organization. From a storytelling point of view, in my opinion, there's not much doubt about S31's rogue and extremist nature. Other than that story and the whole ENT madness, we know nothing about S31 and every participation in other events or position about them is pure fan speculation. So there's not much to work with, really.

Only the dress uniforms look a bit Imperial like, not really much different from the TWOK uniforms except in colour. Besides the PU Starfleet also used the TMP pajamas so who's more evil?
The cannon weapons on the spaceships is a combination of the cannons from the NX and the red pulse phasers of the refit Enterprise from the TOS films.

There are no changes to the functions of the universes only the technology and the characters.

It may be possible for S31 to have infiltrated Starfleet Command but it's more likely they are official. We know only a few things, they are built into the Earth Starfleet charter (so are an official organisation in the 22nd century), the Earth Starfleet is the basis for the Federation Starfleet (it's identical with almost zero Andorian or Vulcan input), They have the resources and clearance to build a Starbase at Jupiter (impossible without authorisation), they have the authority to take over internal investigations (not impossible otherwise but still evidence).

The Federation in DS9 is in worse shape than in the AU. There's no reason to make them official in the AU and not DS9 unless they already were to begin with.​​

mustrumridcully0

artan42 wrote: »

It may be possible for S31 to have infiltrated Starfleet Command but it's more likely they are official.

They are definitely not official at all. If they were, then Bashir an Sisko would have known about it, and Sloane would never have tried to create a fiction that he might be the only member of Section 31 and it practically only exists in his mind.

The Federation in DS9 is in worse shape than in the AU. There's no reason to make them official in the AU and not DS9 unless they already were to begin with.​​

But it's also almost a century later, with different players. Section 31 might not have found the right allies or political climate. Maybe more importantly is also that the events leading to the "desperate" situation were different. According to the background information, the differences between the AR and our universe are largely caused by the sudden appearance of Nero and his uber ship, that triggered Starfleet to develop its military technology and strategy. (And not just Starfleet). But that leaves Section 31 2 decades for getting more influence. The Dominion wasn't even know about until something like 2 years before we entered a war. Before that, the Federation was in safe, stable and secure position.
Overall, a terrible environment for an organization that exists to bend Starfleet regulations in times of extraordinary threat.

artan42

mustrumridcully0 wrote: »

They are definitely not official at all. If they were, then Bashir an Sisko would have known about it, and Sloane would never have tried to create a fiction that he might be the only member of Section 31 and it practically only exists in his mind.

Why would official not also mean secret? I never said Section 31 would have recruiting posters and their own office on ESD, they're not SHIELD.

But it's also almost a century later, with different players. Section 31 might not have found the right allies or political climate. Maybe more importantly is also that the events leading to the "desperate" situation were different. According to the background information, the differences between the AR and our universe are largely caused by the sudden appearance of Nero and his uber ship, that triggered Starfleet to develop its military technology and strategy. (And not just Starfleet). But that leaves Section 31 2 decades for getting more influence. The Dominion wasn't even know about until something like 2 years before we entered a war. Before that, the Federation was in safe, stable and secure position.
Overall, a terrible environment for an organization that exists to bend Starfleet regulations in times of extraordinary threat.

Even so you don't just decide to give a guerilla organisation the keys to a super-weapon. They have Starfleet style ships, weapons, and are overseen by a Fleet Admiral. All the militarisation would mean is an increase in military spending to S31.


I don't even get what peoples problems with S31 are? What have they done that the CIA would't try? There's no reason to assume they are anything other than the Federation intelligence service that poor, innocent, naive, idealist, Doctor Bashir doesn't believe could exist inside his lala land based on Picard's shiny utopia.​​

mustrumridcully0

artan42 wrote: »

mustrumridcully0 wrote: »

They are definitely not official at all. If they were, then Bashir an Sisko would have known about it, and Sloane would never have tried to create a fiction that he might be the only member of Section 31 and it practically only exists in his mind.

Why would official not also mean secret? I never said Section 31 would have recruiting posters and their own office on ESD, they're not SHIELD.

I take official to mean that some people outside Section 31 knows that it exists, too. If not, it isn't official. There must be some form of governmental oversight, and it's extremely unlikely that it's such a secret that high ranking (Captains, Admirals) of Starfleet itself wouldn't know about its existence. And Admiral Ross seems to originally only consider it a myth or rumor.

But it's also almost a century later, with different players. Section 31 might not have found the right allies or political climate. Maybe more importantly is also that the events leading to the "desperate" situation were different. According to the background information, the differences between the AR and our universe are largely caused by the sudden appearance of Nero and his uber ship, that triggered Starfleet to develop its military technology and strategy. (And not just Starfleet). But that leaves Section 31 2 decades for getting more influence. The Dominion wasn't even know about until something like 2 years before we entered a war. Before that, the Federation was in safe, stable and secure position.
Overall, a terrible environment for an organization that exists to bend Starfleet regulations in times of extraordinary threat.

Even so you don't just decide to give a guerilla organisation the keys to a super-weapon. They have Starfleet style ships, weapons, and are overseen by a Fleet Admiral. All the militarisation would mean is an increase in military spending to S31.
[/QUOTE]
In the alternate timeline, they have that. It is not something that happens all the time, but unofficial and even illegal organizations can become part of the government, or create a completely new one. Such an organization would need to find the right allies and contact the right channels. But it helps that Section 31 recruits from Starfleet itself, it's not like it is an outside group of total strangers.

In the Prime timeline, they don't seem to have star ships or ship production facilities. But they seem to have Admirals that look the other way.

I don't even get what peoples problems with S31 are? What have they done that the CIA would't try? There's no reason to assume they are anything other than the Federation intelligence service that poor, innocent, naive, idealist, Doctor Bashir doesn't believe could exist inside his lala land based on Picard's shiny utopia.​​

Starfleet already has an Intelligence service, however, and it does stuff like undercover operations (be it O'Brien under cover in the Orion Syndicate, or Picard on Celtris III). SO the are definitely not the Federation intelligence serve. At best "a" ontelligence service, like the agency letter soup the US has. But event here, the letter agencies are officially known, we just don't know necessarily who is part of it, and what their operations are.

crimsonlena

Why I just had a great idea, Im going to make it my mission to use this weapon on as many players in PvP as I can. It seems poetic, to torment the whiners with this.

Seriously, if you dont like a weapon or anything else in the game, just dont use it. No one is holding a phaser to your head and forcing you to use it.

khan5000

There is no Section 31
*goes back to making super weapons for Admiral Marcus*

nepsthen

crimsonlena wrote: »

Why I just had a great idea, Im going to make it my mission to use this weapon on as many players in PvP as I can. It seems poetic, to torment the whiners with this.

Seriously, if you dont like a weapon or anything else in the game, just dont use it. No one is holding a phaser to your head and forcing you to use it.

That would be a good idea, if players actually did ground PVP on a consistent basis.

As for OP complaining about the flavor text of a weapon, they obviously haven't seen DS9 when Sisko launches a biogenic weapon against a peaceful Maquis colony, or the Founder virus, or Voyager when Janeway genocides an entire species of intelligent energy lifeforms because their nebula contains the chemicals needed for coffee. If you want in game references of this Starfleet being okay with torture, there's the Cardassian track mission where you genocide the Jem'Hadar and kill one of their gods. Or more recently, being okay with genociding the Iconians before love and peace win the day. Or in Delta Rising where you send a Vaaduwar ship to attack and kill some Benthans. Then again, they probably just skipped through the voice overs and text anyway, and just discovered item tool tips for the first time. Lord knows what will happen if they ever come across some of the lewder named Romulan doffs.

themetalstickman

I don't see S31 as inherently evil. It's who's in charge that's the problem. Luther Sloan was *pauses to think* a total TRIBBLE. Adm. Marcus was power-hungry. Both took S31 in a direction that was decidedly not in the Federation's best interests.

Franklin Drake, however, has given me no reason to suspect that he's done anything that is anything but beneficial to the Federation, and he hasn't made me do anything unethical, so as long as he runs the show, I have no problem with S31.​​

gradii

nepsthen wrote: »

crimsonlena wrote: »

Why I just had a great idea, Im going to make it my mission to use this weapon on as many players in PvP as I can. It seems poetic, to torment the whiners with this.

Seriously, if you dont like a weapon or anything else in the game, just dont use it. No one is holding a phaser to your head and forcing you to use it.

That would be a good idea, if players actually did ground PVP on a consistent basis.

As for OP complaining about the flavor text of a weapon, they obviously haven't seen DS9 when Sisko launches a biogenic weapon against a peaceful Maquis colony, or the Founder virus, or Voyager when Janeway genocides an entire species of intelligent energy lifeforms because their nebula contains the chemicals needed for coffee. If you want in game references of this Starfleet being okay with torture, there's the Cardassian track mission where you genocide the Jem'Hadar and kill one of their gods. Or more recently, being okay with genociding the Iconians before love and peace win the day. Or in Delta Rising where you send a Vaaduwar ship to attack and kill some Benthans. Then again, they probably just skipped through the voice overs and text anyway, and just discovered item tool tips for the first time. Lord knows what will happen if they ever come across some of the lewder named Romulan doffs.

LOL I love how you take every event from the shows out of the appropriate context and use it to support your opinion on its own.

jadicus

angrytarg wrote: »

jadicus wrote: »

Sooo, you say you can't refute the charter. okay then, we're done

You argument is based on the assumption that UFP Starfleet is the exact same service than UE Starfleet and the "charter" never changed in centuries. This assumption is based on nothing but the name being the same, the Federation charter indes does heavily emphasize a non-human centric view of the UFP and was last cited in Voyager. Both of it is speculative but I can't see merit in your argumentation.

My argument is nothing of the sort, oh Great Amazing Kreskin. The Federation charter and the Starfleet Charter are two seperate things...so no, my particular "argument" isn't speculative or assumptive. We go by what's there unless a change has been implicitly made.

Now, if you want to go to Assumptions then: We can make a Logical assumption that the starfleet charter was changed to include other species, to be inclusive to other federation members. We can also make a logical assumption that starfleet has become the de facto representative space exploration and military arm of the Federation even while other species still have their own ships. Why? Because it's there in your face on the tv screen. We cannot however, make any logical assumption that Section 31 is no longer the "cia/black ops" of Starfleet for the same reason. It's there, on screen. Can't really refute any of that.

Before you tried to shift into a dead end, your original argument stemmed from the idea of what Starfleet is and what it represents, vs. Section 31 being a part of that and that section 31 being who they are, does not represent the starfleet ideal. That would be a totally different thing to debate. Such is seperate from the other, it's existence as part of starfleet vs being a part of the higher ethics and morality Starfleet aims to achieve and represent.

My work is done here. Back to farming.

ltminns

To paraphrase Sigmund Freud - Sometimes a gun is just a gun.

ssbn655

hakaze wrote: »

It's one thing to shoot someone because they are your enemy, but seriously? A weapon that entraps you, and tortures you to death while unable to move? Sorry Game or not this goes way to far for me O_O

PLEAAAASE Cryptic can't you add a hand in option to switch it for the mirror shotgun? This thing is just too sick.

OMFG how can you rationalize it's ok to shoot someone but its not ok to use this weapon? Do you relaize how F'ed up that is? In your mind its fine to use a the Breen weapon the FREEZES A PERSON TO DEATH but not this one? OMFG I guess you never had frostbite it hurts. It's ok to use a shotgun that rip the person apart thats fine with the OP. I guess you never saw what a 12 gauge does to a living thing it's not pretty. My Remington 12 gauge with a sabot deer slug leaves a hole clear through a deer and guy its nasty and at the ranges in this game with double 00 buckshot the target would be torn in half. So don't go off on this fictional thing. OP you are an idiot. If you want to take the high ground don't use it plus IT"S A VIDEO GAME DUH! Better yet take your holier then thou attitude and QUIT! I am so sick of you people trying to force your stuffed shirt moral values down everyones throats. You OP and others with your mindset make me sick to my stomach.

shrimphead2015

Lets be honest here, this thread started to lose it's way about two pages ago. It makes me wonder if the OP was serious about this or was just putting this out to get a rise out of everybody. I don't think it's a moral failing that I do not take the Agony Field Rifle so serious to the point that I would need to convey to the whole community how much it disturbs me. It's a pixel that makes other pixels do things, big deal. No one is forcing you to use the damn thing and you can toss it out a airlock for all I care.

Video games are supposed to be a get away, a place where for a short time is an escape from everyday things we deal with in our lives. It's never been a place for me to state a political stance or a morality stance, that's the stuff I was trying to get away from in the first place.

As far as the whole Section 31 thing and the other dilemma about a Starfleet Captain using this type of weapon. Well for me I think that Starfleet and the Federation turns out some of the nicest people in the galaxy (going by the tv series). Archer, Kirk, Picard, Cisco, and Janeway all seem to be very decent people, the kind you want as your next door neighbors or to invite over for coffee.

I also think that Starfleet and the Federation turn out some very dangerous people. Folks that will make the hard decisions, that won't get a good night's sleep a few days after doing something that would make our friendly neighbors and coffee companions become aghast at the thought. Not just Section 31 but Admirals, Commodores and yes even Captains have done things that were against what the Federation in it's stalwart morality would consider abhorrent.

As a player in this game you can roleplay for yourself to decide which route you want to take and that's fine. This is a fantasy game and you shouldn't lose a wink of sleep regardless of your decision or what another person decides.

highlord83

themetalstickman wrote: »

Franklin Drake, however, has given me no reason to suspect that he's done anything that is anything but beneficial to the Federation​​

In the beginning of the Klingon story, Drake gets a Galaxy class destroyed with all hands lost, then does the same thing to a trio of light battlegroups that he lures into a Klingon ambush to cover his escape. It ends with upwards of a dozen vessels lost, thousands dead, and numerous senior officers captured.

"Beneficial to the Federation" my TRIBBLE.

Section 31 is the Trek equivalent to Cerberus, and Drake himself needs to be hanged.

elywaer

[/quote]

klingon probably not, blood knights hate anything that slows a fight. the more angry romulans would in a heartbeat... hmm I may have to replay cut the cord after I get it.

[/quote]

Oh yeah, my main two Romulans (KDF and Fed), will have to do this. . .

bobbydazlers

angrytarg wrote: »

mustrumridcully0 wrote: »

The description of the rifle seems to state that the target still takes damage when inside the agony field - which suggest to me that it's a weapon used to kill people, and it happens to do so while inflicting more pain than others.

It really does not sound like something a Starfleet character would use. I am not so sure about any other faction. The Klingons used pain sticks, after all, though that seemed to have been a lost art after the TNG episode where Worf did his Klingon initiation ritual.

Those weren't weapons though, but part of a ritual. I don't know and highly doubt Klingons would show too much concern about unnecessary pain for their enemies but I assume generally would consider the weapon dishonourable due to the stasis field which renders the target defenseless and thus robs it of a honourable fight. But the majority of Klingons and especially the common footsoldier would use anything to achieve victory and make a name for themselves.​​

in combat inflicting pain is inevitable, the chance to hold one or more enemy in a force field is also fine as it just takes them out of combat for a short while so you can deal with the rest of the horde, but inflicting pain on an enemy that is unable to defend themselves or even run away before their inevitable death is just inhumane.

ltminns wrote: »

Why would the Klingons care? They seem to have no compunction about executing crew members for incompetence - like what forgetting to restock the toilet paper (nah, that's not a good example), speaking while under cloak, cooking the meat, whatever?

glory with honour is very important to Klingons there is no glory or honour in inflicting pain on an enemy that is incapacitated in this way and therefore unable to defend themselves or even run away like the cowardly dogs they are.

shrimphead2015 wrote: »

Lets be honest here, this thread started to lose it's way about two pages ago. It makes me wonder if the OP was serious about this or was just putting this out to get a rise out of everybody. I don't think it's a moral failing that I do not take the Agony Field Rifle so serious to the point that I would need to convey to the whole community how much it disturbs me. It's a pixel that makes other pixels do things, big deal. No one is forcing you to use the damn thing and you can toss it out a airlock for all I care.

Video games are supposed to be a get away, a place where for a short time is an escape from everyday things we deal with in our lives. It's never been a place for me to state a political stance or a morality stance, that's the stuff I was trying to get away from in the first place.

As far as the whole Section 31 thing and the other dilemma about a Starfleet Captain using this type of weapon. Well for me I think that Starfleet and the Federation turns out some of the nicest people in the galaxy (going by the tv series). Archer, Kirk, Picard, Cisco, and Janeway all seem to be very decent people, the kind you want as your next door neighbors or to invite over for coffee.

I also think that Starfleet and the Federation turn out some very dangerous people. Folks that will make the hard decisions, that won't get a good night's sleep a few days after doing something that would make our friendly neighbors and coffee companions become aghast at the thought. Not just Section 31 but Admirals, Commodores and yes even Captains have done things that were against what the Federation in it's stalwart morality would consider abhorrent.

As a player in this game you can roleplay for yourself to decide which route you want to take and that's fine. This is a fantasy game and you shouldn't lose a wink of sleep regardless of your decision or what another person decides.

well said that man, could not agree with you more, there is good and bad in any organization, I have no problem with the weapon being in the game if other players feel its fine that's ok with me, I am not here to impose my will on others so if you think its fine then by all means use it but none of my characters will touch it, I have to use my own moral compass as well as what I think they would feel about it, if its repugnant to me and I believe it would be repugnant to them then there is no question about it, that's my own little bit of roleplay right there.