Privilege is privilege is privilege, in real life or in a game. If the other factions were afforded equal treatment and equal opportunities, the population of the other factions would not be so small. It might never be entirely on the same level as Fed population, but people will gravitate toward an option for which they see better treatment and more opportunities.
And is aesthetic preference actually "a choice," or is it innate, or some blend of the two?
It would be perfectly reasonable to couch this as a financial/business argument, by pointing out that Cryptic has gotten themselves in a vicious cycle by providing few enough options that sales are lower than they should be, which they then use to justify even fewer offerings. You could then go on to say that Cryptic needs to take the risk to make a major development push as a long-term investment, rather than focusing on easy short-term gains. That is something I suspect you and I agree is a problem in Cryptic/PWE's approach to the game: a self-destructively shortsighted financial focus. Making that argument cuts the legs out of their protestations that something "doesn't sell" and therefore isn't justified.
I'm pretty sure I've tried that more than once, to no apparent avail, so I'm going with something different this time.
In contrast, I reiterate that resorting to arguments about "privilege" and elevating in-game concerns and Cryptic/PWE financial decisions to something equivalent to a very serious real-life debate is IMO both unjustified (and risks a completely unnecessary personal insult to people you are talking to), and unhelpful to your goals (unnecessary offense causes people to react against what they might otherwise view as a legitimate position had they not been thus offended).
I don't see why I should not call it what it is. Tact is one thing, but I'm not terribly fond of euphemisms. They are disingenuous. And when tact fails, it's time to be blunt.
We don't even have the same options as Feds, let alone the same numbers for each option. The RRF has exactly ZERO dedicated carriers, and no Science warbirds worthy of the name at T5-U or T6 (I am, I will admit, deliriously pleased with the Deihu, but it's a Science Command Warbird, not a Science Warbird), the KDF has garbage for Science ships; this is part of why the Krenim Temporal Science Dreadnought Carrier is so outrageously expensive -- it's essentially the only option available to KDF and RRF for things that we don't otherwise have. So tell me again how the Feds are not privileged and the other factions are not discriminated against, and how I'm the one being rude for pointing out the injustice and calling for rectification?
"Accusing people of employing fallacies." Goodness. J'accuse! A fallacy is a fallacy. There's nothing inherently nice or rude about pointing one out.
Actually it comes across as rude and patronising, as you are not actually engaging with people's arguments: you have instantly dismissed/bypassed several well argued points by implying falsely that they are based upon logical fallacies.
I will provide a concrete example. Take the points raised by me, and others, upon the decision by Cryptic to produce more Fed content than Romulan. The explanations as to why this is the case have been put forward intelligently and coherently: the business logic underpinning these decisions is clear.
Yet rather than engage with these arguments you chose to instead handwave them away by claiming "Homuculus Fallacy! If Cryptic invested more in Romulans then more people would spend $ on them".
Strictly speaking, that statement isn't wrong: it may be the case that if Cryptic invested more in Romulan content, then a few more people would spend a few more $. But it does not address the point which those arguments are making, and thus your invocation of a fallacy - and subsequent dismissal of the argument based upon this - is false. Here's why.
As I and others have stated - the Klingons and Romulans may have a few episodes devoted to them, but the Star Trek franchise ultimately focuses on the Federation. More people come to Star Trek online to play Federation captains and characters than Romulan or KDF. This is a fact, no matter how much you might want it not to be true.
Accordingly, no matter how much money is invested in Romulans or KDF, the market for Romulan content is and will always be smaller than the market for Fed content. Accordingly, there is simply a greater return on investment for Fed content.
This isn't privilege or bias or whatever you want to call it. Its simple economic logic - Cryptic have based their decision to focus on Fed content because its a greater return on investment of scarce dev resources.
Who said anything about Toma-Lax? There were Romulans before "The New Guys" came along and turned the RSE into a society ruled by a gang of uptight fascist bully boys.
This rant about onscreen portrayals of Romulans is utterly irrelevant to the point being made (and thus reinforces my point about sidestepping). I simply picked the Romulan captain who had appeared onscreen the most, as an illustrative example. My point - which has been echoed by various others - is that more people come to Star Trek Online to play as Federation Captains than Romulan or KDF ones, therefore more $ to be made from Feds. Not privilege. Simple.
And no, I didn't "side-step" your point. I ignored it, because it's ridiculous to pretend that privilege doesn't exist in STO. The Feds are favored. It's such an obvious truth as to not require any argument for its truth.
You did side step my point (as per Tomalak nonsense above, where you chose to refer to something utterly irrelevant rather than address the argument being made), which was (and is) that it is utterly ridiculous to compare ECONOMIC based arguments about decision making processes in STO to real life discrimination and entrenched social privileges. Gul Berat has addressed this far more eloquently than I could.
Finally, when people as different as Gul Berat and Starfleet Dental types are making the same points (albeit in their very different styles), maybe its time to reflect upon both what you are saying and how you are saying it.
Actually on reflection - are you seriously arguing that the Romulan faction gets fewer ships/content/etc not because of their smaller player numbers and fanbase makes it uneconomic, but because there is an active, invisible form of Federation privilege, akin to white privilege (which is for all intents and purposes what you are referring to above).
Yes, because it's the truth. Even Al Rivera's said something along the lines of "Star Trek is about the Federation so of course we're going to make more ships for them."
We don't want what the Feds have. We want the equivalent. We want fairer treatment. Concern, desire, greed to some extent, and passionate belief that the enough people would buy KDF items to make it worth Cryptic's while.
I'm truly enjoying this conversation derailing though it may be. It's nice to see intelligent people go after a moron for a change instead of visa-versa.
Although this is quickly turning into a 'Hot Cosby' situation I think. Still entertaining I just feel dirty for enjoying it.
I'm truly enjoying this conversation derailing though it may be. It's nice to see intelligent people go after a moron for a change instead of visa-versa.
Although this is quickly turning into a 'Hot Cosby' situation I think. Still entertaining I just feel dirty for enjoying it.
Woah now. Proto may not always be on the money, but she's no Moron by any means. All in all, she generally knows what's up. It's well and fine to disagree with people, but lets leave the name-calling back where it belongs at the school yard.
Regardless of what it's called, there's a comparative lack of content for the Romulans. It doesn't need a label to be a fact.
It just all-around sucks for those of us like myself, who like the Romulans in Trek. The ability to play as a Romulan and the Republic storyline was something that hooked me into STO, 'cause I've been a fan of the Romulans all throughout my life as a Trekkie. Not everyone enjoys the Romulan lore as much as I and others do, and that's fine. Just because I like something doesn't mean that absolutely everyone else needs to like it as well, so I certainly don't expect that everyone roll a Romulan in STO.
That said, it'd be nice to have a little less gaping disparity between the Federation and Romulan options in the game. But releasing the new Prometheus and following it immediately with a contest that builds a new Starfleet ship? Yeah, that's definitely enough to irk players who aren't interested in Fed content.
Woah now. Proto may not always be on the money, but she's no Moron by any means. All in all, she generally knows what's up. It's well and fine to disagree with people, but lets leave the name-calling back where it belongs at the school yard.
Name calling anyone isn't going to get anything done. And it's just a wee bit against the rules around here, so best not to try it with anyone
I'm truly enjoying this conversation derailing though it may be. It's nice to see intelligent people go after a moron for a change instead of visa-versa.
Although this is quickly turning into a 'Hot Cosby' situation I think. Still entertaining I just feel dirty for enjoying it.
Woah now. Proto may not always be on the money, but she's no Moron by any means. All in all, she generally knows what's up. It's well and fine to disagree with people, but lets leave the name-calling back where it belongs at the school yard.
Oh look another whiny entitled minority. My patience is officially gone.
What is so difficult about privilege is that it is a concept that is very counter-intuitive to privileged groups. Privilege is, by the social justice definition, the advantages people have that they don't often think about because they never have to experience the oppressive side. Understanding it requires an active effort to see things from the perspective of other, underprivileged people.
I'm not particularly concerned with the "patience" of someone who gets all the shinies and doesn't think others should be treated equally and have equal opportunities, but jealously wants what little those others get for himself as well and cries about how "OP" they are. I very probably spend more money than you do on this game. Tell me again why I'm "entitled" and "whiny" and shouldn't get treatment and opportunities equal to what a Fed player gets in the game?
And in reaction to my calling him out for expressing what can only be considered an expression of bigoted privilege, I have thereafter been subjected to all manner of would-be chastisers, including some guy who apparently imagines that my demonstration of why something is fallacious is mere opinion without basis, and that by pointing out the fallaciousness of it, I have "side-stepped" the thing. (To him, I say: That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works. It's fallacious, and by showing it to be so, I have dismissed it, not out of hand, but logically. This ain't rhetorical debate, where being "witty" and using "pretty" speech will win over the audience, Sunshine, and where you can simply continue to spout your position after it's been shown to be fallacious. It's Logical Analysis and Argumentation, where demonstration of fallacy means "No, try again with something else, because that design is not aerodynamic and therefore won't fly.")
Oh look another whiny entitled minority. My patience is officially gone.
We really are not the minority everyone things we are. Yes there are more Fed's, but I see more and more people showing up as RR and KDF lately than I see new Fed blood. (and I have never once bought a stand alone fed ship, however have purchased numerous RR and KDF ships that way.)
ruff, meow, moo, whatever.... *shrug* [ Still Waiting for a Shiny New T6 Romulan Science Ship to Command ]
You have not 'shown' or 'demonstrated' anything beyond repeatedly shouting of 'fallacy! fallacy! fallacy!' without supporting argument, despite me and others having amply deconstructed that assertion.
I see no point in continuing to discuss this with you as you have begun to resort to insults (ie: 'some guy', 'sunshine', thereby contradicting earlier claims not to be rude or patronising), and have utterly ignored everything I have posted.
Everybody just ignore Protogoth, she is a well known troll on the Romulan forums and is just trying to spread her angst here because everybody is wise to her bull there.
There is ONLY one design Omega. And as I see it a 4 / 3 for weapons and (4) Kumari or something along the same lines as the Fed pilot ship as carrier pets. Anything else is just way too underpowered for my liking. No, it doesn't need to be so OP that nothing can stand against it. Then again I already posted this very same thing months ago.
What type of 'carrier' is it to be? Like the Atrox, a fighter only one, or will be like the Vo'Quv and launch Escorts? I hope is former.. or if latter will herald the making of a T6 KDF carrier... plz?
:0 What are you talking about? Another wimpy cant fight it's way out of a wet paper bag ship? Escorts at minimum!
You have not 'shown' or 'demonstrated' anything beyond repeatedly shouting of 'fallacy! fallacy! fallacy!' without supporting argument, despite me and others having amply deconstructed that assertion.
Really? Because I'm quite sure I showed the circularity in the argument, and its infinite regress right here. And rather than "shouting" anything, I stated the very names of the fallacies. And once again, you're on a browser, so if you don't understand these names, you have access to Google; there's no reason I should have to conduct a course in Logic every time I point out fallacy in these fora. And I'm not sure what you think "deconstructed" means, but you haven't done it. The fallacy is well known in this situation and has even been admitted by a Dev; it's not like I'm tossing terms around without basis or understanding.
I see no point in continuing to discuss this with you as you have begun to resort to insults (ie: 'some guy', 'sunshine', thereby contradicting earlier claims not to be rude or patronising), and have utterly ignored everything I have posted.
I wasn't aware that "some guy" was an insult, nor even "sunshine." Granted, the latter might be a bit condescending, but it's hardly an insult. And I don't believe I ever claimed to not be rude; on the contrary, what I said was that pointing out fallacy is in itself neither nice nor rude. Patronising? Hm. It's always been interesting to me that a person who knows what he or she is talking about is so frequently labeled "arrogant" by those who don't know what they're talking about and don't understand that "arrogance" refers to unmerited pride, but patronising? That's at least somewhat original, but just as inaccurate, since I have not pretended any kindness.
Everybody just ignore Protogoth, she is a well known troll on the Romulan forums and is just trying to spread her angst here because everybody is wise to her bull there.
That's funny, because the Romulan Discussion forum tells quite a different story. And if I'm such a well-known "troll" there, why are there so many people there who share my views? You, on the other hand, have taken the widely unpopular position of supporting playable Tal'Shiar. Let the record speak for itself. I invite everyone to review my posts in Romulan Discussion from the dawn of LoR to now, in context, and yours alongside them, in context, and judge for themselves. I have nothing to fear in such a review. A Tal'Shiar supporter, on the other hand, ...
Actually on reflection - are you seriously arguing that the Romulan faction gets fewer ships/content/etc not because of their smaller player numbers and fanbase makes it uneconomic, but because there is an active, invisible form of Federation privilege, akin to white privilege (which is for all intents and purposes what you are referring to above).
Yes, because it's the truth. Even Al Rivera's said something along the lines of "Star Trek is about the Federation so of course we're going to make more ships for them."
That sounds like "privilege" to me.
I don't think favoring a video game faction is comparable to any form of real-life discrimination. Playing STO, or paying for it, is not a matter of life and death. It's not in any way similar to being fired unjustly from one's job, or being threatened or attacked.
It is okay to dislike the game's business model, and said model can easily and effectively be criticized without resorting to comparisons to real-life racism. And yes, addressing a point upthread, I understand that making the point other ways hasn't seemed to get things changed for the Romulans, but I don't think it excuses what amounts to an accusation that anyone who disagrees is a bigot. That kind of stand, that kind of tactic should be reserved for IRL crisis situations where lives and livelihoods are hanging in the balance.
If someone would give my Reman another viable science option besides the Dyson Science Destroyer that would actually be within my resources to grind for, don't get me wrong, I would love it. (Heck, one idea would be to take whatever we build in this contest and reskin it and issue it for the other two factions after the process on the Fed side is done...hint hint, when it comes time to decide on the loadout, vote sci!!! ) I think it was a big mistake not to give RRF sci's that option. I can call it a mistake, I can ask for it to be fixed, I can and do choose to withhold my money as a statement about what I think about the way the game is managed, but I do not see it as anywhere near worthy of being cruel to those around me for it or suggesting that anything is IRL wrong with them if they don't see it as important for me to get that option or feel that is a misuse of dev resources.
If anything, being uncivil over a game risks hardening the decision-makers in their stances. I'd rather reason civilly with them...which has no guaranteed chance of getting anywhere but also some chance, even if slim, of being taken into consideration and implemented...than cause them to 100% shut down because of the way I treated them.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Vote for ship and step away from the PC to think about where everything went wrong dude.
Also all you ever do is beg to be made a mod when you are clearly just a crazy person and turn everything in to some sort of persecution or injustice, which is why you will never be a mod.
Like I referred to in my last post, I had the idea that if we push this build in the Science direction as far as we can once we get to that part of the voting, get it a decent turn rate, and let the devs know we want it reskinned to go cross-faction, it might get their attention.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
look point is even Tacofangs has admitted in a reply to me in a forum post somewhere in these fora somewere in the last couple months that Cryptic DOES INDEED spend a lot of time going down the circular logic drain with 'TRIBBLE doesn't make enough money so we spend less time on TRIBBLE, which means fewer people spend on TRIBBLE which mean we spend less time on TRIBBLE'
Proto is too wordy and likes to come off like the worst kind of english lit major with a superiority complex... but this doesn't make her wrong. The reality is Gecko has been on record stating that the KDF is "monster play" for STO and both the BS Rebel AllianceRomulan Republic and the KDF get shafted because of his preferences, and the fact that these 2 are under-developed and get less and less compared to the fedrats. Would more people still be fedrats even if all 3 got equal dev time? Possible, maybe even probable, but thats no excuse to ignore the other two 99.9% of the time unless all they're doing is to reskin their new fed-shiney.
And just like I told tacofangs... The only way to break out of that circle is to actually DO IT, make a badass KDF Sci ship that players would love and if it doesn't sell... well guess what, not only are the Devs vindicated they have the PERFECT excuse to throw in players faces for the next 5yrs.
Plenty of people care, actually. You don't care, that is obvious. Just as obvious that the KDF and NRR get the left over trash that wasn't good enough for the Fed's.
ruff, meow, moo, whatever.... *shrug* [ Still Waiting for a Shiny New T6 Romulan Science Ship to Command ]
look point is even Tacofangs has admitted in a reply to me in a forum post somewhere in these fora somewere in the last couple months that Cryptic DOES INDEED spend a lot of time going down the circular logic drain with 'TRIBBLE doesn't make enough money so we spend less time on TRIBBLE, which means fewer people spend on TRIBBLE which mean we spend less time on TRIBBLE'
But is it really circular? He suggeste that it might be possible, but he doesn't actually know, IIRC.
A circularity would assume that the sales for a faction ship would get worse with each ship release, as the problem is self-reeinforcing. But is that really the case?
There is also data from CBS I believe that suggested a certain market share in relation to faction-specific material which is inherent in the Star Trek fanbase.
I think some people engage in a different fallacy. Just because there are n groups doesn't mean that every group needs 1/nth of coverage. It's a fallacy that particular US media seems to be fond of, if there are two views ,they try to present both equally, even if one view is clearly a minority view.
But it's actually a democratic principle that the decisions follow the desires and wants of the majority. (This is not without flaws, since it can drown out minorities and hamper them, which is why contemporary democracies also have checks and balances to support minorites. But it doesn't change that they are minorities. For example - just because the majority of people in Germany are probably Christians (or is it Atheists?) doesn't mean we need (or are allowed) to forbid Buddhism. But just because Buddhism is accepted and legal doesn't mean that every TV show involving a religious person must contain one Christian and one Buddhist "for balance".)
So, I guess the question I have is: Does anyone here think that in the target audience for Star Trek Online, that every faction has an equal amount of devoted fans? That in a Star Trek game, players are overall equally drawn to Starfleet, Klingons or Romulans?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Well, I may be crazy, but the fact that we're having this 'debate' on whether the Romulans (and KDF) deserve more content might in fact be a sign that there's enough intererest in said content.
That would be called "hey-I'm-posting-that-I-want-more-stuff-ism" logic, I believe
Whether it's straight-up equal or not? Yeah, I do expect a slight bias towards producing content for the Feds. But it is getting a little annoying when there's back-to-back releases of Fed-only content without even so much as a nod to the other factions they built. In my case, I won't even be paying attention to the new ship building, because I know I won't be buying it - along with the new Prometheus that was released just yesterday. I don't play Fed at the end-game, so new T6 Starfleet ships don't get a second look.
I suppose the biggest kicker for me is also that, in cases such as bridge sets, tailor options, and so on, the sum of the options for the Romulans and KDF doesn't even match the options for just the Federation. Something where that sum at least matches the Federation would be a nice start. Or maybe even if the Romulan and KDF options were about 2/3rds of what the Feds have, that'd be a little more managable.
And also, 'cause I'm in her fleet... well, Proto is kinda awesome. Her mini-essays on the fora were one of the things that made me actually join the Tal'Diann. Read 'em sometimes - you might find yourself agreeing with her more times than not.
Except, in STO, a person can be both "Christian AND Bhuddist". If the player doesn't have as much "Bhuddist" content to play or buy, there is less incentive for the player invest time/effort in thier "Bhuddism". Add that to the fact that, in game, the content for "Judaism" was never even fully developed before the arrival of "Bhuddism", along with the half-religion design of "Bhuddism" really leaves some with the age of question of why a third religion was ever developed in game before the second religion was finished development.
Comments
I'm pretty sure I've tried that more than once, to no apparent avail, so I'm going with something different this time.
I don't see why I should not call it what it is. Tact is one thing, but I'm not terribly fond of euphemisms. They are disingenuous. And when tact fails, it's time to be blunt.
We don't even have the same options as Feds, let alone the same numbers for each option. The RRF has exactly ZERO dedicated carriers, and no Science warbirds worthy of the name at T5-U or T6 (I am, I will admit, deliriously pleased with the Deihu, but it's a Science Command Warbird, not a Science Warbird), the KDF has garbage for Science ships; this is part of why the Krenim Temporal Science Dreadnought Carrier is so outrageously expensive -- it's essentially the only option available to KDF and RRF for things that we don't otherwise have. So tell me again how the Feds are not privileged and the other factions are not discriminated against, and how I'm the one being rude for pointing out the injustice and calling for rectification?
I will provide a concrete example. Take the points raised by me, and others, upon the decision by Cryptic to produce more Fed content than Romulan. The explanations as to why this is the case have been put forward intelligently and coherently: the business logic underpinning these decisions is clear.
Yet rather than engage with these arguments you chose to instead handwave them away by claiming "Homuculus Fallacy! If Cryptic invested more in Romulans then more people would spend $ on them".
Strictly speaking, that statement isn't wrong: it may be the case that if Cryptic invested more in Romulan content, then a few more people would spend a few more $. But it does not address the point which those arguments are making, and thus your invocation of a fallacy - and subsequent dismissal of the argument based upon this - is false. Here's why.
As I and others have stated - the Klingons and Romulans may have a few episodes devoted to them, but the Star Trek franchise ultimately focuses on the Federation. More people come to Star Trek online to play Federation captains and characters than Romulan or KDF. This is a fact, no matter how much you might want it not to be true.
Accordingly, no matter how much money is invested in Romulans or KDF, the market for Romulan content is and will always be smaller than the market for Fed content. Accordingly, there is simply a greater return on investment for Fed content.
This isn't privilege or bias or whatever you want to call it. Its simple economic logic - Cryptic have based their decision to focus on Fed content because its a greater return on investment of scarce dev resources.
This rant about onscreen portrayals of Romulans is utterly irrelevant to the point being made (and thus reinforces my point about sidestepping). I simply picked the Romulan captain who had appeared onscreen the most, as an illustrative example. My point - which has been echoed by various others - is that more people come to Star Trek Online to play as Federation Captains than Romulan or KDF ones, therefore more $ to be made from Feds. Not privilege. Simple.
You did side step my point (as per Tomalak nonsense above, where you chose to refer to something utterly irrelevant rather than address the argument being made), which was (and is) that it is utterly ridiculous to compare ECONOMIC based arguments about decision making processes in STO to real life discrimination and entrenched social privileges. Gul Berat has addressed this far more eloquently than I could.
Finally, when people as different as Gul Berat and Starfleet Dental types are making the same points (albeit in their very different styles), maybe its time to reflect upon both what you are saying and how you are saying it.
Yes, because it's the truth. Even Al Rivera's said something along the lines of "Star Trek is about the Federation so of course we're going to make more ships for them."
That sounds like "privilege" to me.
Although this is quickly turning into a 'Hot Cosby' situation I think. Still entertaining I just feel dirty for enjoying it.
Woah now. Proto may not always be on the money, but she's no Moron by any means. All in all, she generally knows what's up. It's well and fine to disagree with people, but lets leave the name-calling back where it belongs at the school yard.
It just all-around sucks for those of us like myself, who like the Romulans in Trek. The ability to play as a Romulan and the Republic storyline was something that hooked me into STO, 'cause I've been a fan of the Romulans all throughout my life as a Trekkie. Not everyone enjoys the Romulan lore as much as I and others do, and that's fine. Just because I like something doesn't mean that absolutely everyone else needs to like it as well, so I certainly don't expect that everyone roll a Romulan in STO.
That said, it'd be nice to have a little less gaping disparity between the Federation and Romulan options in the game. But releasing the new Prometheus and following it immediately with a contest that builds a new Starfleet ship? Yeah, that's definitely enough to irk players who aren't interested in Fed content.
Name calling anyone isn't going to get anything done. And it's just a wee bit against the rules around here, so best not to try it with anyone
It's not the first time:
And in reaction to my calling him out for expressing what can only be considered an expression of bigoted privilege, I have thereafter been subjected to all manner of would-be chastisers, including some guy who apparently imagines that my demonstration of why something is fallacious is mere opinion without basis, and that by pointing out the fallaciousness of it, I have "side-stepped" the thing. (To him, I say: That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works. It's fallacious, and by showing it to be so, I have dismissed it, not out of hand, but logically. This ain't rhetorical debate, where being "witty" and using "pretty" speech will win over the audience, Sunshine, and where you can simply continue to spout your position after it's been shown to be fallacious. It's Logical Analysis and Argumentation, where demonstration of fallacy means "No, try again with something else, because that design is not aerodynamic and therefore won't fly.")
We really are not the minority everyone things we are. Yes there are more Fed's, but I see more and more people showing up as RR and KDF lately than I see new Fed blood. (and I have never once bought a stand alone fed ship, however have purchased numerous RR and KDF ships that way.)
[ Still Waiting for a Shiny New T6 Romulan Science Ship to Command ]
I see no point in continuing to discuss this with you as you have begun to resort to insults (ie: 'some guy', 'sunshine', thereby contradicting earlier claims not to be rude or patronising), and have utterly ignored everything I have posted.
:0 What are you talking about? Another wimpy cant fight it's way out of a wet paper bag ship? Escorts at minimum!
Really? Because I'm quite sure I showed the circularity in the argument, and its infinite regress right here. And rather than "shouting" anything, I stated the very names of the fallacies. And once again, you're on a browser, so if you don't understand these names, you have access to Google; there's no reason I should have to conduct a course in Logic every time I point out fallacy in these fora. And I'm not sure what you think "deconstructed" means, but you haven't done it. The fallacy is well known in this situation and has even been admitted by a Dev; it's not like I'm tossing terms around without basis or understanding.
I wasn't aware that "some guy" was an insult, nor even "sunshine." Granted, the latter might be a bit condescending, but it's hardly an insult. And I don't believe I ever claimed to not be rude; on the contrary, what I said was that pointing out fallacy is in itself neither nice nor rude. Patronising? Hm. It's always been interesting to me that a person who knows what he or she is talking about is so frequently labeled "arrogant" by those who don't know what they're talking about and don't understand that "arrogance" refers to unmerited pride, but patronising? That's at least somewhat original, but just as inaccurate, since I have not pretended any kindness.
That's funny, because the Romulan Discussion forum tells quite a different story. And if I'm such a well-known "troll" there, why are there so many people there who share my views? You, on the other hand, have taken the widely unpopular position of supporting playable Tal'Shiar. Let the record speak for itself. I invite everyone to review my posts in Romulan Discussion from the dawn of LoR to now, in context, and yours alongside them, in context, and judge for themselves. I have nothing to fear in such a review. A Tal'Shiar supporter, on the other hand, ...
I don't think favoring a video game faction is comparable to any form of real-life discrimination. Playing STO, or paying for it, is not a matter of life and death. It's not in any way similar to being fired unjustly from one's job, or being threatened or attacked.
It is okay to dislike the game's business model, and said model can easily and effectively be criticized without resorting to comparisons to real-life racism. And yes, addressing a point upthread, I understand that making the point other ways hasn't seemed to get things changed for the Romulans, but I don't think it excuses what amounts to an accusation that anyone who disagrees is a bigot. That kind of stand, that kind of tactic should be reserved for IRL crisis situations where lives and livelihoods are hanging in the balance.
If someone would give my Reman another viable science option besides the Dyson Science Destroyer that would actually be within my resources to grind for, don't get me wrong, I would love it. (Heck, one idea would be to take whatever we build in this contest and reskin it and issue it for the other two factions after the process on the Fed side is done...hint hint, when it comes time to decide on the loadout, vote sci!!!
If anything, being uncivil over a game risks hardening the decision-makers in their stances. I'd rather reason civilly with them...which has no guaranteed chance of getting anywhere but also some chance, even if slim, of being taken into consideration and implemented...than cause them to 100% shut down because of the way I treated them.
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Nobody cares.
Vote for ship and step away from the PC to think about where everything went wrong dude.
Also all you ever do is beg to be made a mod when you are clearly just a crazy person and turn everything in to some sort of persecution or injustice, which is why you will never be a mod.
The Gamma and Omega seem appealing at least the top down views.
Like I referred to in my last post, I had the idea that if we push this build in the Science direction as far as we can once we get to that part of the voting, get it a decent turn rate, and let the devs know we want it reskinned to go cross-faction, it might get their attention.
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Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Proto is too wordy and likes to come off like the worst kind of english lit major with a superiority complex... but this doesn't make her wrong. The reality is Gecko has been on record stating that the KDF is "monster play" for STO and both the BS Rebel AllianceRomulan Republic and the KDF get shafted because of his preferences, and the fact that these 2 are under-developed and get less and less compared to the fedrats. Would more people still be fedrats even if all 3 got equal dev time? Possible, maybe even probable, but thats no excuse to ignore the other two 99.9% of the time unless all they're doing is to reskin their new fed-shiney.
And just like I told tacofangs... The only way to break out of that circle is to actually DO IT, make a badass KDF Sci ship that players would love and if it doesn't sell... well guess what, not only are the Devs vindicated they have the PERFECT excuse to throw in players faces for the next 5yrs.
Plenty of people care, actually. You don't care, that is obvious. Just as obvious that the KDF and NRR get the left over trash that wasn't good enough for the Fed's.
[ Still Waiting for a Shiny New T6 Romulan Science Ship to Command ]
A circularity would assume that the sales for a faction ship would get worse with each ship release, as the problem is self-reeinforcing. But is that really the case?
There is also data from CBS I believe that suggested a certain market share in relation to faction-specific material which is inherent in the Star Trek fanbase.
I think some people engage in a different fallacy. Just because there are n groups doesn't mean that every group needs 1/nth of coverage. It's a fallacy that particular US media seems to be fond of, if there are two views ,they try to present both equally, even if one view is clearly a minority view.
But it's actually a democratic principle that the decisions follow the desires and wants of the majority. (This is not without flaws, since it can drown out minorities and hamper them, which is why contemporary democracies also have checks and balances to support minorites. But it doesn't change that they are minorities. For example - just because the majority of people in Germany are probably Christians (or is it Atheists?) doesn't mean we need (or are allowed) to forbid Buddhism. But just because Buddhism is accepted and legal doesn't mean that every TV show involving a religious person must contain one Christian and one Buddhist "for balance".)
So, I guess the question I have is: Does anyone here think that in the target audience for Star Trek Online, that every faction has an equal amount of devoted fans? That in a Star Trek game, players are overall equally drawn to Starfleet, Klingons or Romulans?
That would be called "hey-I'm-posting-that-I-want-more-stuff-ism" logic, I believe
Whether it's straight-up equal or not? Yeah, I do expect a slight bias towards producing content for the Feds. But it is getting a little annoying when there's back-to-back releases of Fed-only content without even so much as a nod to the other factions they built. In my case, I won't even be paying attention to the new ship building, because I know I won't be buying it - along with the new Prometheus that was released just yesterday. I don't play Fed at the end-game, so new T6 Starfleet ships don't get a second look.
I suppose the biggest kicker for me is also that, in cases such as bridge sets, tailor options, and so on, the sum of the options for the Romulans and KDF doesn't even match the options for just the Federation. Something where that sum at least matches the Federation would be a nice start. Or maybe even if the Romulan and KDF options were about 2/3rds of what the Feds have, that'd be a little more managable.
And also, 'cause I'm in her fleet... well, Proto is kinda awesome. Her mini-essays on the fora were one of the things that made me actually join the Tal'Diann. Read 'em sometimes - you might find yourself agreeing with her more times than not.
-Signed, a "Christian"