In no way will I allow something that goes against these forums, or one of the most important things Star Trek can teach us. We can grow as human beings, else we wouldn't have progressed to the point where we are.
I am not allowing any more naming and shaming in this thread. Bannings are going to happen.
So roughly if someone says something you personally do not like even if it isn't actually ban worthy Star Trek has taught you that we should silence them immediately if they do not agree with you. I agree very much with your logic or wherever this logic originates
So roughly if someone says something you personally do not like even if it isn't actually ban worthy Star Trek has taught you that we should silence them immediately if they do not agree with you. I agree very much with your logic or wherever this logic originates
Disagreement and flaming are two entirely different concepts. You can't justify the latter by hiding under the guise of the former.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
So roughly if someone says something you personally do not like even if it isn't actually ban worthy Star Trek has taught you that we should silence them immediately if they do not agree with you. I agree very much with your logic or wherever this logic originates
Naming and shaming IS against the rules. So is trolling, flaming, and all other manners of impoliteness that have been thrown around in this thread.
And she wasn't just warning those who disagree with the inclusion of a TRIBBLE couple, she was warning BOTH sides, because certain individuals on BOTH sides have acted very poorly here.
Also, I want one of those mek'leths some of the Klingon party had as their melee weapon.
Ditto.
/10char
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
As long as they refrain from making such things as sexual orientation and other such things from being the highlight and focal point of a mission, I will be able to over look those things that I find offensive.
I can live with anybody living the way they want to as long as they don't force it to be a focal point my interactions with them. As long they remain respectful to me, so I will be to them.
The bit peice put in this mission over the two klingon ladies I would have missed if not for somebody pointing it out here on the forums. And that is doing it right, in my book. It adds depth to those who seek it, but it's not forced upon those who don't need or want it. That part is well done.
I am very disappoint that the mission "failed" even though I placed a spatial charge on one of those generators. And assuming that House Pegh placed the charge at the other generator, we should of at least blown the two generators and partially crippled that stations efforts.
And they also have tossed the whole legend of the Sword of Kahless out the door. That is very wrong too. And a complete disservice to the Klingon Culture.
Other than those things, the mission was quick and at least goal oriented. So I like it for those things.
But it wasn't sexual at all. They didn't kiss, they didn't hug, they didn't do anything suggestive.
It only came up once, in one sentence.
If they were to remove the one line that said "her mate" you wouldn't have even known any different. There was nothing outside that line that suggested they were a 'couple'
Her 'mate' was a little protective, but they could have just been best friends or something.
Dead horse beaten down already multiple times. It has been mentioned by at least half a dozen people.
Regardless, just because something is technically allowed, this does not mean it should be added.
The one thing we can all agree on is that LGBT relations are controversial (if this is warranted or not is a discussion for another time/place) and anybody could have seen in advance that people would find it offensive.
When you know this then the wisdom of adding a LGBT couple can be questioned.
Personally i feel this addition of the relationship was unnecessary for the storyline, distracting and inflammatory /provocative. Overall poor judgement on the addition.
If this was meant as support for the LGBT rights then i feel the gesture has backfired due to the cesspool in this topic.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
The one thing we can all agree on is that LGBT relations are controversial
Since when do we all agree on that?
(if this is warranted or not is a discussion for another time/place) and anybody could have seen in advance that people would find it offensive.
When you know this then the wisdom of adding a LGBT couple can be questioned.
I'm offended all Iconians are evil, as well as offended by the "planet of hats" trope, where everyone on a planet has the same behavior, same mentality, same goals in life.
Someone is bound to be offended by something, no matter what.
Personally i feel this addition of the relationship was unnecessary for the storyline, distracting and inflammatory /provocative. Overall poor judgement on the addition.
But it's not even a major plot point. Remove one word. One single word and nobody would have cared. But because there is a "mate" in the dialogue, some people got triggered.
If I were John Spartan, I'd say:
"Somebody, put me back in the fridge..."
What if it had been something even more controversial like a transgendered individual flaunting their new identity - like we see with many trills? Oh, we've seen it already. There's some interesting episodes for All to consider on DS9 especially. Also with Beverly in TNG. I'm trying to think of any trill npcs in game but am drawing blank. I wonder if mirror Kira's love for Kira counts also?
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
If you insist: "Since everybody but saurializard agrees that..."
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
Personally i feel this addition of the relationship was unnecessary for the storyline, distracting and inflammatory /provocative. Overall poor judgement on the addition.
More and more TV Shows and movies are including them without being a central point to a story. It is becoming more common place. I didn't find it distracting at all.
How is it distracting? It is only brought up once in the entire mission, and it is mentioned as casually as saying B'ELanna is married to Tom, or that Worf is a a Klingon. It isn't a plot point, it isn't the central focus of the story.
Is it more controversial or less than an interracial kiss on tv in the 60's or a russian serving with an american in the height of the cold war? The circle where this episode remains controversial is growing much smaller in diameter very rapidly.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
What if it had been something even more controversial like a transgendered individual flaunting their new identity - like we see with many trills? Oh, we've seen it already. There's some interesting episodes for All to consider on DS9 especially. Also with Beverly in TNG. I'm trying to think of any trill npcs in game but am drawing blank. I wonder if mirror Kira's love for Kira counts also?
One could say that LGBT relationships were portrayed in DS9 mirror universe episodes, but personally i found those acts as being in character for the provocative/violent/manipulative nature of those in the mirror universe. Not really a positive endorsement.
Is it more controversial or less than an interracial kiss on tv in the 60's or a russian serving with an american in the height of the cold war? The circle where this episode remains controversial is growing much smaller in diameter very rapidly.
Is it growing smaller? I cannot speak for the US, but when i look in the Netherlands i feel the often militant attitude of the LGBT rights movement has actually turned the tide against them. Things like marriage and equal rights for adoption have been fixed, but when i speak to some TRIBBLE/bi friends of mine we get the impression that the public support is growing smaller.
While relatively minor in the Netherlands, i get the impression that this backlash is rapidly gaining momentum with Russia being a prime example.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
(...)
The one thing we can all agree on is that LGBT relations are controversial (if this is warranted or not is a discussion for another time/place) and anybody could have seen in advance that people would find it offensive.
When you know this then the wisdom of adding a LGBT couple can be questioned.
(...)
Seriously? Wow... just wow...
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Is it more controversial or less than an interracial kiss on tv in the 60's or a russian serving with an american in the height of the cold war? The circle where this episode remains controversial is growing much smaller in diameter very rapidly.
More and more TV Shows and movies are including them without being a central point to a story. It is becoming more common place. I didn't find it distracting at all.
"More and more TV shows and movies are including them under financial pressure, lawsuits, and threats"
One could say that LGBT relationships were portrayed in DS9 mirror universe episodes, but personally i found those acts as being in character for the provocative/violent/manipulative nature of those in the mirror universe.
I took it more that Kira really was into herself. Ha. Picture the young narcissus pining away at his reflection in the water.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
I took it more that Kira really was into herself. Ha. Picture the young narcissus pining away at his reflection in the water.
It would fit the narcissistic nature of "Mirror Kira"
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
I specifically mentioned heterosexual and meant that. I was asking for in game presentations of "straight" couples. I dont think we have had an STO "on screen" hetero couple. Im thinking some people might be upset at the whole thing because there wasnt even an on screen straight couple. I could care less either way. Im just trying to figure out why some people are upset, beyond the typical "homophobe" assumption.
Miral and the guy who dies are established as exes. You also have Neelix and his mate. There's also Scotty and his girlfriend Cassidy and an Orion with a Starfleet officer in the same mission. The Vulcan Love Slave holoprogram that fell in love with her owner, although that's a patrol people skip, and pretty much all of the Orion women seen are in heterosexual relationships, albeit ones that involve slavery. It was even established that the Orions have been manipulating the High Council by selling off hundreds of Orions who are now owned by members of the High Council and that J'mpok is infatuated with the sister of the lead Orion (who isn't a slave). Plus most of Risa.
STO is remarkably light on romance/soap opera as Star Trek goes. There's more than some Star Trek games but far less than you'd see in any season of any Trek show.
I will say that it was at least not extremely overt and many children will miss it (as some of the adults did). But I feel parents have the right to be aware when things like this are brought up in a game context and not be blindsided by them. I am previewing the episode and have a chance to be a responsible parent to my teenage sons who play STO and have a discussion about it. If Cryptic wants to set this as a precedent and abuse my trust in their discretion, then I either need to preview every single episode before my sons get a chance to play it or I need to prevent them from playing at all. Either way, Cryptic, do you really want people preventing their kids from logging in at convenient times?
I think it's a shame that this is something you feel the need to filter a child's exposure to although I commend your level of dedication as a parent.
What we saw here was not really any different, standards-wise, from DS9 or Doctor Who and it seems to me that the bigger concern should be with someone getting impaled and vaporized.
Star Trek has had lesbians and bisexual characters before. This is just the first time they didn't kiss.
My biggest hope out of all this mess is that the Devs, writers and PWE do not back track on this groundbreaking addition to the game to do so would only pamper to the minority while excluding the group of people who for one praise this addition.
"Groundbreaking addition"?
Wow... I'm sorry I passionately disagree. I strongly support a person's right to be with whomever they choose, I personally found the way they represented that TRIBBLE couple to be quite offensive. The "over protective" girlfriend was simply rude, mean and overbearing in her hyper sensitivity towards the player character. What I saw was a writer leaning on the stereotypical "grumpy TRIBBLE" (to put it politely) personality that many TRIBBLE women are labeled with. Not every TRIBBLE couple is comprised of one woman and one man-hating woman who wishes she was a man and that is EXACTLY how that couple came across.
Either do it right and be respectful or don't do it at all... The game certainly does not need any more of this and honestly I would like them to simply edit that mission and pull that dialog out. It added nothing to the story and only reinforces misplaced stereotypes.
I'm very disappointed in the writers and hope the dev team takes a real long, hard look at how they can improve their story telling. This isn't PVE Queue online with some token Star Trek mumbo jumbo thrown in to keep their license. They have a huge opportunity here and are blowing it with weak character and plot development.
Comments
So roughly if someone says something you personally do not like even if it isn't actually ban worthy Star Trek has taught you that we should silence them immediately if they do not agree with you. I agree very much with your logic or wherever this logic originates
Disagreement and flaming are two entirely different concepts. You can't justify the latter by hiding under the guise of the former.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Naming and shaming IS against the rules. So is trolling, flaming, and all other manners of impoliteness that have been thrown around in this thread.
And she wasn't just warning those who disagree with the inclusion of a TRIBBLE couple, she was warning BOTH sides, because certain individuals on BOTH sides have acted very poorly here.
That was cute.
Also, I want one of those mek'leths some of the Klingon party had as their melee weapon.
Ditto.
/10char
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Well, you the player are still human, you don't know the conversion rate.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
I don't think so, I'm watching TNG: Rightful Heir right now, his voice in game is too Deep.
I can live with anybody living the way they want to as long as they don't force it to be a focal point my interactions with them. As long they remain respectful to me, so I will be to them.
The bit peice put in this mission over the two klingon ladies I would have missed if not for somebody pointing it out here on the forums. And that is doing it right, in my book. It adds depth to those who seek it, but it's not forced upon those who don't need or want it. That part is well done.
I am very disappoint that the mission "failed" even though I placed a spatial charge on one of those generators. And assuming that House Pegh placed the charge at the other generator, we should of at least blown the two generators and partially crippled that stations efforts.
And they also have tossed the whole legend of the Sword of Kahless out the door. That is very wrong too. And a complete disservice to the Klingon Culture.
Other than those things, the mission was quick and at least goal oriented. So I like it for those things.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
Dead horse beaten down already multiple times. It has been mentioned by at least half a dozen people.
Regardless, just because something is technically allowed, this does not mean it should be added.
The one thing we can all agree on is that LGBT relations are controversial (if this is warranted or not is a discussion for another time/place) and anybody could have seen in advance that people would find it offensive.
When you know this then the wisdom of adding a LGBT couple can be questioned.
Personally i feel this addition of the relationship was unnecessary for the storyline, distracting and inflammatory /provocative. Overall poor judgement on the addition.
If this was meant as support for the LGBT rights then i feel the gesture has backfired due to the cesspool in this topic.
I'm offended all Iconians are evil, as well as offended by the "planet of hats" trope, where everyone on a planet has the same behavior, same mentality, same goals in life.
Someone is bound to be offended by something, no matter what.
But it's not even a major plot point. Remove one word. One single word and nobody would have cared. But because there is a "mate" in the dialogue, some people got triggered.
If I were John Spartan, I'd say:
"Somebody, put me back in the fridge..."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
If you insist: "Since everybody but saurializard agrees that..."
Whoops, I didn't notice how old the post was.
More and more TV Shows and movies are including them without being a central point to a story. It is becoming more common place. I didn't find it distracting at all.
How is it distracting? It is only brought up once in the entire mission, and it is mentioned as casually as saying B'ELanna is married to Tom, or that Worf is a a Klingon. It isn't a plot point, it isn't the central focus of the story.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
That's the curse of having one of the most frequently quoted posts in a topic. :P
One could say that LGBT relationships were portrayed in DS9 mirror universe episodes, but personally i found those acts as being in character for the provocative/violent/manipulative nature of those in the mirror universe. Not really a positive endorsement.
Is it growing smaller? I cannot speak for the US, but when i look in the Netherlands i feel the often militant attitude of the LGBT rights movement has actually turned the tide against them. Things like marriage and equal rights for adoption have been fixed, but when i speak to some TRIBBLE/bi friends of mine we get the impression that the public support is growing smaller.
While relatively minor in the Netherlands, i get the impression that this backlash is rapidly gaining momentum with Russia being a prime example.
Seriously? Wow... just wow...
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
^
This exactly.
"More and more TV shows and movies are including them under financial pressure, lawsuits, and threats"
Fixed that for you.
In his defense, he didn't say "first" he just states that it happened in the 60's.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
It would fit the narcissistic nature of "Mirror Kira"
There';s a KDF mission in STO where the Klingon player recovers the sword and gives it to Kahless.
Miral and the guy who dies are established as exes. You also have Neelix and his mate. There's also Scotty and his girlfriend Cassidy and an Orion with a Starfleet officer in the same mission. The Vulcan Love Slave holoprogram that fell in love with her owner, although that's a patrol people skip, and pretty much all of the Orion women seen are in heterosexual relationships, albeit ones that involve slavery. It was even established that the Orions have been manipulating the High Council by selling off hundreds of Orions who are now owned by members of the High Council and that J'mpok is infatuated with the sister of the lead Orion (who isn't a slave). Plus most of Risa.
STO is remarkably light on romance/soap opera as Star Trek goes. There's more than some Star Trek games but far less than you'd see in any season of any Trek show.
Proof? And I don't mean "person X said it is so"
Join Starfleet,
Boldly go where no man has gone before,
Meet interesting new species, and Kill them!
Why would someone be sued for not?
I think it's a shame that this is something you feel the need to filter a child's exposure to although I commend your level of dedication as a parent.
What we saw here was not really any different, standards-wise, from DS9 or Doctor Who and it seems to me that the bigger concern should be with someone getting impaled and vaporized.
Star Trek has had lesbians and bisexual characters before. This is just the first time they didn't kiss.
"Groundbreaking addition"?
Wow... I'm sorry I passionately disagree. I strongly support a person's right to be with whomever they choose, I personally found the way they represented that TRIBBLE couple to be quite offensive. The "over protective" girlfriend was simply rude, mean and overbearing in her hyper sensitivity towards the player character. What I saw was a writer leaning on the stereotypical "grumpy TRIBBLE" (to put it politely) personality that many TRIBBLE women are labeled with. Not every TRIBBLE couple is comprised of one woman and one man-hating woman who wishes she was a man and that is EXACTLY how that couple came across.
Either do it right and be respectful or don't do it at all... The game certainly does not need any more of this and honestly I would like them to simply edit that mission and pull that dialog out. It added nothing to the story and only reinforces misplaced stereotypes.
I'm very disappointed in the writers and hope the dev team takes a real long, hard look at how they can improve their story telling. This isn't PVE Queue online with some token Star Trek mumbo jumbo thrown in to keep their license. They have a huge opportunity here and are blowing it with weak character and plot development.
Captain Ariel Trueheart Department of Temporal Investigations
U.S.S. Valkyrie - NCC 991701
=/\= ================================= =/\=
So, basically, she was a Klingon. Noted.