They say a picture is worth a thousand words, so here is a google image search of "martial arts". Yes, I understand that *technically* any form of trained fighting is a "martial art", but that is certainly not what most people mean when they use the term. Generally speaking, if someone wants to watch "martial arts" they don't turn on WWE.
That said, at least we now know why we disagree. You have been saying Superman used "martial arts", and I thought you meant the common meaning of the term, not the technical meaning. By your meaning, every superhero ever also uses "martial arts". So wow, that's pretty impressive Superman!
Technically true, but the key distinction is in the level of training. Also the fact that Superman uses martial arts not invented on Earth.
Also, using the pop-culture definition of a term is not much of an excuse... Since pop-culture definitions are almost always wrong.
Oh and would you consider Brock Lesnar a martial artist? Bear in mind that he has been know to compete in MMA sometimes.
Technically true, but the key distinction is in the level of training. Also the fact that Superman uses martial arts not invented on Earth.
Like I said, pretty much every superhero ever is a martial artist by the technical definition.
Also, using the pop-culture definition of a term is not much of an excuse... Since pop-culture definitions are almost always wrong.
The pop culture definition is not "wrong", it it simply not all-inclusive. Asian martial arts *are* martial arts, so nothing is "wrong" with what that google image search shows. They just happen to be the most popular form, and what most people think of when they hear the term.
Oh and would you consider Brock Lesnar a martial artist? Bear in mind that he has been know to compete in MMA sometimes.
Yes, I would consider him a martial artist, but one person is not representative of an entire franchise. As I said before, most people would not consider the WWE a "martial arts" program. If they did, then you would see lots of pics of WWE matches in that google image search.
As I said before, you are technically right. I'm acknowledging that. You are simply not using the terminology in the way most commonly understood, which is where our misunderstanding came from.
The pop culture definition is not "wrong", it it simply not all-inclusive. Asian martial arts *are* martial arts, so nothing is "wrong" with what that google image search shows. They just happen to be the most popular form, and what most people think of when they hear the term.
Even so, it implies that other cultures have no form of martial arts of their own. That's why it's wrong.
Iron Man and Batman are not really a good matchup for a battle(if that is what you are talking about). Yes, they both have rich alter-egos, and yes they both use tech. But beyond those bullet points you're talking about a guy in a metal armored suit with lasers and missile launchers vs a guy in body armor with martial arts skills. That's not really a fair comparison.
The closest comparison IMO would be Iron Man vs John Henry Irons aka Steel. The last DC vs Marvel crossover(that I am aware of) put Iron Man vs Green Lantern, but objectively speaking, the power ring is way more powerful than Iron Man's suit, so that is not really a good match up either.
Even so, it implies that other cultures have no form of martial arts of their own. That's why it's wrong.
No, it simply shows that one form of martial arts are the most commonly known and referred to by the term. But that is not an "implication" that no other form exists.
No, it simply shows that one form of martial arts are the most commonly known and referred to by the term. But that is not an "implication" that no other form exists.
Actually, it is whether you want it to or not. By disputing that Superman was using "martial arts" by your understanding of the term, you're implying that others do not exist.
im·ply
imˈplī/
verb
verb: imply; 3rd person present: implies; past tense: implied; past participle: implied; gerund or present participle: implying
strongly suggest the truth or existence of (something not expressly stated).
"the salesmen who uses jargon to imply his superior knowledge"
synonyms: insinuate, suggest, hint (at), intimate, say indirectly, indicate, give someone to understand, convey the impression, signal
"are you implying he is mad?"
(of a fact or occurrence) suggest (something) as a logical consequence.
"the forecasted traffic increase implied more roads and more air pollution"
synonyms: involve, entail; More
Actually, it is whether you want it to or not. By disputing that Superman was using "martial arts" by your understanding of the term, you're implying that others do not exist.
At no point in this conversation did I ever claim that Superman *never* used martial arts. What I asked for were specific examples of what markhawkman was talking about, and finally came to understand that by "martial arts" he meant "fighting skills", which every superhero has. You are very close to putting words in my mouth, and if you proceed to do that then I will happily do the same thing to you in response, which will mean I can accuse of of saying and reply to things that you never actually said. I'll play that game if you want, but it is pointless because we can both invent endless things that were not said and come up with a witty response.
At no point in this conversation did I ever claim that Superman never used martial arts. What I asked for were specific examples of what markhawkman was talking about, and finally came to understand that by "martial arts" he meant "fighting skills", which every superhero has. You are very close to putting words in my mouth, and if you proceed to do that then I will happily do the same thing to you in response, which means that I can reply to things you never actually said.
Iron Man and Batman are not really a good matchup for a battle(if that is what you are talking about). Yes, they both have rich alter-egos, and yes they both use tech. But beyond those bullet points you're talking about a guy in a metal armored suit with lasers and missile launchers vs a guy in body armor with martial arts skills. That's not really a fair comparison.
Batman had a Black... Tank.
The point was both Tony Stark and Bruce Wayne are rich, and have resources that can be brought into play to counter each other. It would be basically an arms race for those two. The Iron Man armor does give Stark the early advantage, but Wayne (Specifically the Dark Knight Trilogy version) could potentially be able to find a countermeasure. And Stark doesn't have anything like the Batmobile, which in some circumstances could be more versitile than a suit of armor.
No, I didn't. Didn't what? Didn't claim that "Superman *never* used martial arts". Saying I did not see him using "martial arts" in his 1 fight with Doomsday is not the same thing as saying he has *never* used "martial arts", ever. But again, it turns out that by "martial arts" markhawkman meant "any kind of fighting skill, at all". So by that meaning, yes, Superman and ever other superhero uses "martial arts" in every single fight they get in.
That statement was talking about 1 specific fight, with Doomsday, not every fight Superman has ever been in. Saying I did not see him using "martial arts" in his 1 fight with Doomsday is not the same thing as saying he has *never* used "martial arts", ever. But again, it turns out that by "martial arts" markhawkman meant "any kind of fighting skill, at all". So by that meaning, yes, Superman and ever other superhero uses "martial arts" in every single fight they get in.
No, you either don't understand what I said, or are intentionally lying to try to make your point. If the former, I'll be happy to explain. If the latter, there is no point going any further with you. But note that I am not accusing you of the latter, and completely understand that it may simply be you do not understand.
No, you either don't understand what I said, or are intentionally lying to try to make your point. If the former, I'll be happy to explain. If the latter, there is no point going any further with you. But note that I am not accusing you of the latter, and completely understand that it may simply be you do not understand.
Fine, then... "explain" what you meant, since I'm apparently too feeble to understand plain English and definitions of English words.
Fine, then... "explain" what you meant, since I'm apparently too feeble to understand plain English and definitions of English words.
To clarify, I'm not claiming you not understanding is due to any lack of intelligence on your part. It is quite common in conversation for people to misunderstand each other. That said, here are the 2 quotes you are comparing:
He did? Any specific examples you are referring to? I have that trade paperback and don't recall seeing anything except a knock down drag out fight. No martial art type moves...but maybe a little WWE =P
At no point in this conversation did I ever claim that Superman *never* used martial arts.
The first quote is talking about 1 specific fight; Superman vs Doomsday. The second is talking about any time in Superman's history. Saying that I did not see Superman use "martial arts" in 1 specific fight is *not* the same thing as saying he has never used "martial arts" ever. It's really just that simple, but I realize you cannot read my mind, and misunderstood what I meant.
To clarify, I'm not claiming you not understanding is due to any lack of intelligence on your part. It is quite common in conversation for people to misunderstand each other. That said, here are the 2 quotes you are comparing:
The first is talking about a specific fight; Superman vs Doomsday. The second is talking about any time ever. Saying I did not see Superman use "martial arts" in a specific fight is not the same thing as saying he has never used "martial arts" ever. It's really just that simple, but I realize you cannot read my mind, and misunderstood what I meant.
:rolleyes: Enjoy riding that bicycle backwards then, as that's what it looks like from here. But whatever helps you sleep easier, I suppose. Because a few posts after that, it became clear you were assuming the "pop" Asian definition rather than the technical definition markhawkman was using.
:rolleyes: Enjoy riding that bicycle backwards then, as that's what it looks like from here
I have bad news for you; I am not riding any bicycle. Therefore you are apparently suffering from some kind of hallucination. You should probably consult your doctor soon.
I have bad news for you; I am not riding any bicycle. Therefore you are apparently suffering from some kind of hallucination. You should probably consult your doctor soon.
I was expanding on the backpedaling idiom. In case you do not know what an idiom is:
idiom
[id-ee-uh m]
Synonyms
Examples
Word Origin
noun
1.
an expression whose meaning is not predictable from the usual meanings of its constituent elements, as kick the bucket or hang one's head, or from the general grammatical rules of a language, as the table round for the round table, and that is not a constituent of a larger expression of like characteristics.
2.
a language, dialect, or style of speaking peculiar to a people.
3.
a construction or expression of one language whose parts correspond to elements in another language but whose total structure or meaning is not matched in the same way in the second language.
4.
the peculiar character or genius of a language.
5.
a distinct style or character, in music, art, etc.:
the idiom of Bach.
Don't worry, I understand what you meant. Just like I understand saying someone is "backpedaling" is just an easy way to try to avoid the actual point. There are 2 clear differences between the 2 statements you were comparing, but once explained you simply ignored that and moved on other posts without ever acknowledging being wrong about the previous point.
PS: bad news, I have to leave for a bit. Feel free to try again and I'll get back to it later
Don't worry, I understand what you meant. Just like I understand saying someone is "backpedaling" is just an easy way to try to avoid the actual point. There are 2 clear differences between the 2 statements you were comparing, but once explained you simply ignored that and moved on other posts without ever acknowledging being wrong about the previous point. It's OK though
No, you're just simply backpedaling. It turned out that you were wrong, so you went back and modified your argument so you could try it again.
No, you still don't understand what I actually meant.
^^^See, I can do it too. Saying "No, blah blah blah" is not a real reply, but we can do it as long as you want. But no, I didn't "modify" anything. Long story short, you think I meant one thing, I explained that I meant something else, you refuse to accept the explanation, rinse and repeat.
I can add:
Of course DC is desperate to catch up to the Marvel juggernaut, so how much they are now rushing these movies out may be blatantly obvious, story-wise. So many pitfalls for them, and given the disappointing Green Lantern they are climbing out of a hole. Dawn of Justice really needs to knock it out of the park.
I can add:
Of course DC is desperate to catch up to the Marvel juggernaut, so how much they are now rushing these movies out may be blatantly obvious, story-wise. So many pitfalls for them, and given the disappointing Green Lantern they are climbing out of a hole. Dawn of Justice really needs to knock it out of the park.
I *hope* DoJ will be great; I really do. And I actually like the trailer, but that means nothing at this point. There are rumors about Chris Pine being cast as GL, and I kind of like that idea. Despite the whole Batfleck thing, I think they could possibly wind up with a pretty good Justice League if they get the remaining roles cast well.
PS: regarding the Chris Pine/GL rumor, it's kind of amusing they are about to do a Trek/GL comic crossover story.
Like I said, pretty much every superhero ever is a martial artist by the technical definition.
True, however it is a matter of degree. And I would rank Superman above most. IIRC it was Karate Kid of the LOSH who said it best. He was a level 10 martial artist, Batman was level 9. Most superheros wouldn't rate above a 3 since that's not the sort of thing they do. I'd say Superman is at least a 5.
The pop culture definition is not "wrong", it it simply not all-inclusive. Asian martial arts *are* martial arts, so nothing is "wrong" with what that google image search shows. They just happen to be the most popular form, and what most people think of when they hear the term.
I'd be willing to wager that your definition excludes half of the Asian martial arts too. You probably think of stuff like ninjas and kung fu masters and little else. You certainly sound like you wouldn't consider Sumo, or Kyokushinryu(technically a form of karate but it's not like what you see in "Karate Kid".
Yes, I would consider him a martial artist, but one person is not representative of an entire franchise. As I said before, most people would not consider the WWE a "martial arts" program. If they did, then you would see lots of pics of WWE matches in that google image search.
As I said before, you are technically right. I'm acknowledging that. You are simply not using the terminology in the way most commonly understood, which is where our misunderstanding came from.
Brock isn't the only example. I'm not sure about a lot of the more recent talent but I know that Steve Blackman and Kurt Angle were actually pretty good fighters IRL.
More like stunt fighting the way they do it in movies. It does take skill to do it right, and someone who doesn't know any actual combat skills takes a lot longer to learn it.
Unfortunately my bike won't start, so I'm back sooner than I had hoped. Now, where were we?
No, you still don't understand what I actually meant.
^^^See, I can do it too. Saying "No, blah blah blah" is not a real reply, but we can do it as long as you want. But no, I didn't "modify" anything. Long story short, you think I meant one thing, I explained that I meant something else, you refuse to accept the explanation, rinse and repeat.
No, because while your initial point was proven wrong, you started saying "Oh, but this is what I really meant." That's backpedaling.
Comments
Also, using the pop-culture definition of a term is not much of an excuse... Since pop-culture definitions are almost always wrong.
Oh and would you consider Brock Lesnar a martial artist? Bear in mind that he has been know to compete in MMA sometimes.
My character Tsin'xing
Like I said, pretty much every superhero ever is a martial artist by the technical definition.
The pop culture definition is not "wrong", it it simply not all-inclusive. Asian martial arts *are* martial arts, so nothing is "wrong" with what that google image search shows. They just happen to be the most popular form, and what most people think of when they hear the term.
Yes, I would consider him a martial artist, but one person is not representative of an entire franchise. As I said before, most people would not consider the WWE a "martial arts" program. If they did, then you would see lots of pics of WWE matches in that google image search.
As I said before, you are technically right. I'm acknowledging that. You are simply not using the terminology in the way most commonly understood, which is where our misunderstanding came from.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
<.<
>.>
Iron Man vs Batman
Even so, it implies that other cultures have no form of martial arts of their own. That's why it's wrong.
Iron Man and Batman are not really a good matchup for a battle(if that is what you are talking about). Yes, they both have rich alter-egos, and yes they both use tech. But beyond those bullet points you're talking about a guy in a metal armored suit with lasers and missile launchers vs a guy in body armor with martial arts skills. That's not really a fair comparison.
The closest comparison IMO would be Iron Man vs John Henry Irons aka Steel. The last DC vs Marvel crossover(that I am aware of) put Iron Man vs Green Lantern, but objectively speaking, the power ring is way more powerful than Iron Man's suit, so that is not really a good match up either.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
No, it simply shows that one form of martial arts are the most commonly known and referred to by the term. But that is not an "implication" that no other form exists.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Actually, it is whether you want it to or not. By disputing that Superman was using "martial arts" by your understanding of the term, you're implying that others do not exist.
im·ply
imˈplī/
verb
verb: imply; 3rd person present: implies; past tense: implied; past participle: implied; gerund or present participle: implying
strongly suggest the truth or existence of (something not expressly stated).
"the salesmen who uses jargon to imply his superior knowledge"
synonyms: insinuate, suggest, hint (at), intimate, say indirectly, indicate, give someone to understand, convey the impression, signal
"are you implying he is mad?"
(of a fact or occurrence) suggest (something) as a logical consequence.
"the forecasted traffic increase implied more roads and more air pollution"
synonyms: involve, entail; More
Tony Stark and Bruce Wayne: Big Pimpin' in Metropolis :cool:
At no point in this conversation did I ever claim that Superman *never* used martial arts. What I asked for were specific examples of what markhawkman was talking about, and finally came to understand that by "martial arts" he meant "fighting skills", which every superhero has. You are very close to putting words in my mouth, and if you proceed to do that then I will happily do the same thing to you in response, which will mean I can accuse of of saying and reply to things that you never actually said. I'll play that game if you want, but it is pointless because we can both invent endless things that were not said and come up with a witty response.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
:rolleyes: You didn't, did you?
Batman had a Black... Tank.
The point was both Tony Stark and Bruce Wayne are rich, and have resources that can be brought into play to counter each other. It would be basically an arms race for those two. The Iron Man armor does give Stark the early advantage, but Wayne (Specifically the Dark Knight Trilogy version) could potentially be able to find a countermeasure. And Stark doesn't have anything like the Batmobile, which in some circumstances could be more versitile than a suit of armor.
No Bat Cards needed for it either.
No, I didn't. Didn't what? Didn't claim that "Superman *never* used martial arts". Saying I did not see him using "martial arts" in his 1 fight with Doomsday is not the same thing as saying he has *never* used "martial arts", ever. But again, it turns out that by "martial arts" markhawkman meant "any kind of fighting skill, at all". So by that meaning, yes, Superman and ever other superhero uses "martial arts" in every single fight they get in.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
You are backpedaling.
No, you either don't understand what I said, or are intentionally lying to try to make your point. If the former, I'll be happy to explain. If the latter, there is no point going any further with you. But note that I am not accusing you of the latter, and completely understand that it may simply be you do not understand.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Fine, then... "explain" what you meant, since I'm apparently too feeble to understand plain English and definitions of English words.
To clarify, I'm not claiming you not understanding is due to any lack of intelligence on your part. It is quite common in conversation for people to misunderstand each other. That said, here are the 2 quotes you are comparing:
The first quote is talking about 1 specific fight; Superman vs Doomsday. The second is talking about any time in Superman's history. Saying that I did not see Superman use "martial arts" in 1 specific fight is *not* the same thing as saying he has never used "martial arts" ever. It's really just that simple, but I realize you cannot read my mind, and misunderstood what I meant.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
:rolleyes: Enjoy riding that bicycle backwards then, as that's what it looks like from here. But whatever helps you sleep easier, I suppose. Because a few posts after that, it became clear you were assuming the "pop" Asian definition rather than the technical definition markhawkman was using.
The record stands clear on that.
I have bad news for you; I am not riding any bicycle. Therefore you are apparently suffering from some kind of hallucination. You should probably consult your doctor soon.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
I was expanding on the backpedaling idiom. In case you do not know what an idiom is:
idiom
[id-ee-uh m]
Synonyms
Examples
Word Origin
noun
1.
an expression whose meaning is not predictable from the usual meanings of its constituent elements, as kick the bucket or hang one's head, or from the general grammatical rules of a language, as the table round for the round table, and that is not a constituent of a larger expression of like characteristics.
2.
a language, dialect, or style of speaking peculiar to a people.
3.
a construction or expression of one language whose parts correspond to elements in another language but whose total structure or meaning is not matched in the same way in the second language.
4.
the peculiar character or genius of a language.
5.
a distinct style or character, in music, art, etc.:
the idiom of Bach.
Don't worry, I understand what you meant. Just like I understand saying someone is "backpedaling" is just an easy way to try to avoid the actual point. There are 2 clear differences between the 2 statements you were comparing, but once explained you simply ignored that and moved on other posts without ever acknowledging being wrong about the previous point.
PS: bad news, I have to leave for a bit. Feel free to try again and I'll get back to it later
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
No, you're just simply backpedaling. It turned out that you were wrong, so you went back and modified your argument so you could try it again.
No, you still don't understand what I actually meant.
^^^See, I can do it too. Saying "No, blah blah blah" is not a real reply, but we can do it as long as you want. But no, I didn't "modify" anything. Long story short, you think I meant one thing, I explained that I meant something else, you refuse to accept the explanation, rinse and repeat.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Got any new thoughts to add? Something more interesting? Look forward to hearing them
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
I can add:
Of course DC is desperate to catch up to the Marvel juggernaut, so how much they are now rushing these movies out may be blatantly obvious, story-wise. So many pitfalls for them, and given the disappointing Green Lantern they are climbing out of a hole. Dawn of Justice really needs to knock it out of the park.
I *hope* DoJ will be great; I really do. And I actually like the trailer, but that means nothing at this point. There are rumors about Chris Pine being cast as GL, and I kind of like that idea. Despite the whole Batfleck thing, I think they could possibly wind up with a pretty good Justice League if they get the remaining roles cast well.
PS: regarding the Chris Pine/GL rumor, it's kind of amusing they are about to do a Trek/GL comic crossover story.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
My character Tsin'xing
No, because while your initial point was proven wrong, you started saying "Oh, but this is what I really meant." That's backpedaling.