My opinion on this issue has actually changed in the last couple weeks. I no longer believe that the dead queues/failqueues have significant bearing on the longevity of the game. This is why I argued so strenuously for months that these fails needed to go. I felt it was driving too many players from the game. I think we are on a set path now. There are also larger concerns for the game.
From my personal perspective there are only a handful of missions that are miserable to pug. Azure was one, Borg disconnected another, and I think Herald Sphere might be a 3rd, though I doubt it will be played enough.
So I am happy now to get to pug anything. There are a good number to enjoy. And I am trying to enjoy while I can. I think we can see that the pug is an endangered breed.
It better not be, if PUGing goes away, then the vast majority of the casual playerbase will follow suit. I may not leave, but I would certainly reduce the number of hours I dedicate to this game. Including participating in any events.
PUGing is currently the only way I will play the STF's, because I can't commit to specific time frames. I play when the moments arise.
I don't think any MMO can ever last if they don't allow for, and probably cater to, the PUGing crowd or the Casual Player. If you don't have something in place for at least one of these groups to feel like they are p[rogressing and that game will not last, I beleive.
No Timers encourage gettings things done NOW. Not taking your time to get done RIGHT. Getting things done now makes people start doing things before anybody gets to talking. And also means that people will be less likely to stop and talk becuse they feel that the time pressure doesn't allow for it. Or at least that what's my apparent experience in all missions with timers have been.
STF's without timers have always allowed people to talk about what should be done before the objective is started on. In Advanced that is what I encounter everytime. In those STF's where communications does occur, success is the normal outcome, with objectives met. In those that have timers, failure is normal. In my experience so far. And this is not a good thing.
There is nothing preventing you from discussing strategy, at the very beginning of the mission, before the clock even starts so, post failure here on this argument. Besides, you should not even need much talking strategy, as you ALL should know wth needs done and, how to get it done!
Well, they are new to me. The content I played before DR did not have timers. After DR, timers started appearing in content I was playing.
The A triggers B is not so much a timer to me. That is a controlable event. WHich means that people can plan when A is triggered to get B. SO I have never been oppossed to those things. Even if it's trollable by people.
Sorry if I seemed like I didn't want optionals. I am fine with optionals. As long as those optionals are controlled by timer. And by timer I mean that the Clocks starts ticking down, regardless of any actions taken. And this timers starts with out giving the team any time to prep and plan before it starts.
If they are new to you, than obviously you are inexperienced and, need more game time apparently, as timers have been around way before DR landed, it's just now they have stiffer fails attached to them.
The only reason you and virus are still at this is because both of you are harcore science ship drivers and the current Fails like infected has is right up your ships strength
That's why both of you whine so much to keep things like they are and bully anyone who says anything differnt
Normals are so easy they teach NOTHING at all to a new player to do a advanced
Reading ? how many seconds do you get to read before the shooting starts 5 seconds...........Plz
crafting mats given in adv and normal.................both are patethic
Has the fails made the STfs more popular ? No
Has the fails made that content more Fun ? No
Has the fails improved the average players game ..No they fail at the first transformer and don't understand why.....then after doing the patethic normal leave the game
expert or veteran players know why this happens...no time to communicate before the first fail occurs unless your in a science ship to hold back the nanites
The best thing cryptic should do is remove these game damaging Fails which were a FAIL in themselves when they were first put into the game
Only a fool would say these Fails are good for the game or a selfish player not looking past their own self interest
Or cryptic not wanting to admit how much these fails have hurt the game
There arnt many veterans left now days , Bur some of us know how it used to be and how it is now
What we got right now is a shadow of what pugs used to be and the biggest reason are these fail condititions
Actually, they do, if people actually pay attention, since the optionals are exactly the same, as is the strategy.
The only difference between a normal and advanced, is optional becomes mandatory + new optional [not mandatory], tougher enemies + more of them and, possibly less time to complete mission, simple!
Didn't learn this from normal, it's you own fault, didn't manage to learn how to get the optional correctly on normal, than you are going to be a complete failure on advanced as well!
This is the fault of the players, as the timer doesn't start until people engage it, otherwise there is plenty of time in the beginning [few missions are an exception].
All matter of opinion, as there are plenty of players who are perfectly fine, with the challenge they currently provide.
There is nothing preventing you from discussing strategy, at the very beginning of the mission, before the clock even starts so, post failure here on this argument. Besides, you should not even need much talking strategy, as you ALL should know wth needs done and, how to get it done!
If they are new to you, than obviously you are inexperienced and, need more game time apparently, as timers have been around way before DR landed, it's just now they have stiffer fails attached to them.
Actually, they do, if people actually pay attention, since the optionals are exactly the same, as is the strategy.
The only difference between a normal and advanced, is optional becomes mandatory + new optional [not mandatory], tougher enemies + more of them and, possibly less time to complete mission, simple!
Didn't learn this from normal, it's you own fault, didn't manage to learn how to get the optional correctly on normal, than you are going to be a complete failure on advanced as well!
This is the fault of the players, as the timer doesn't start until people engage it, otherwise there is plenty of time in the beginning [few missions are an exception].
All matter of opinion, as there are plenty of players who are perfectly fine, with the challenge they currently provide.
You support my statement, that Normals don't train you for the Advanced. The New Optionals that Advanced bring sre not in Normal. There is nothing in Normal that will train you or prepare you to do those new optionals because they are not there.
As for discussing before or after, yes nothing stopping from talking, but at the end when everyone warps out right away, makes it hard to talk to others. And talking before is started but there is not always enough time as some people watch the cut scenes rather than escape out of it. SO it's hard to talk to someone who doesn't see the converstion at all.
And just because some Advanced is new to me does not make that a new STF on normal. Just the new things that Advance add is new to me. And trying to figuire out the best way to handle the required and NEW optionals with people gets cut short when timiers start up.
SO unlike you say, the strategy is NOT the same since there is NEW optionals that are there to do and now the optionals are NOT optional anymore. Running normal to completion while ignoring the optionals will NOT prepare you to run Advanced. Because the strategy is way different.
The New Optionals that Advanced bring sre not in Normal.
Er...new Optionals? There are new Objectives in Advanced that are not in Normal? Could be, I don't run every queue - but could you give an example of one?
Cause it's pretty much a case of Optional(s) and Mandatory in Normal which goes to Optional(s), Mandatory, and Mandatory in Advanced...where that Mandatory in Normal and the second one in Advanced are whatever needs to be done to complete the run - whether it's actually doing something or remaining in the instance for a certain period of time for it to complete.
Agreed. Now pugs will literally save 1 ship in 12 minutes because if it's not required they're not going to do it.
That mission wasn't that hard if you knew what you were doing. I'm not even an uber DPSer and I usually succeeded because I didn't hang out for the first minute at the spawn point picking my nose. Now you don't have to know what you're doing in normal or advanced, and there is no elite version of this queue.
I find the arguments about "helping people learn" rather disingenuous considering no one was learning pre-DR how to do the optionals in pugs and it makes no sense to take away the motivation to learn something in order to encourage people to learn something.
I also find the arguments about "beginners" needing advanced queues to be dumbed down beyond silly because it's called "advanced" not "beginner."
The bottom line is that this change makes it clear that these queues are for grinding (materials, bnps, marks, etc.) and not for having fun. I don't play them for rewards, I play them because I like to play them.
oh please, thats a massive overreaction.
People played before the insta-fails and they still kept going after every ship they saw I never once saw anyone sit on their TRIBBLE in azura why? because there were things to blow up and objectives to complete just because something isnt required does not mean that they will stop once they've achieved the requirement. You know what "fun" is right? people play to have fun and they will continue to play regardless of whether they have completed their objective or not because theres still more to do while there.
as for the "learning" experience, frankly it wasnt needed in the first place I have rarely ever failed the optionals pre-DR and the reason why people were failing post DR wasnt because of advanced tactics from mobs or a vastly improved AI, it was because cryptic slapped a ton of damage resistance, shields and HP points on ships while increasing the ships DPS output as well. the DPS output alone isnt a bad idea but the extra tankyness the mobs went to was a mistake, a little bit more tank is not a problem but the absured amounts they are at right now even after being nerfed for a casual player (who make up the bulk of the community) is game changer they will either never play a queue again or lose interest in the end game entirely and leave.
Now the current situation is either: A) people dont have enough more or time to spend ages grinding and upgrading players take too long to get rep gear or anything considered end game due to reward restrictions which only made the changes worse
or C) players simply couldnt or didnt want to go mass end DPS which resulted in only a select group of individuals being able to complete specific queues easily.
add all those together and you have dead queues.
you either make them fun to play or enjoyable for the player base or you have content which isnt played.
As for learning at all frankly as I said I have rarely failed optionals pre-DR why? because a lot of people knew what they were doing, sure you had people who didnt and there were trolls but frankly I highly doubt the queues were worse than they are now. but overall more people completed optionals before than they do now and I have yet to see any evidence contradicting that. The forced "lessons" were not and are not nessasary. You want to teach someone you make a tutorial. lol
It better not be, if PUGing goes away, then the vast majority of the casual playerbase will follow suit. I may not leave, but I would certainly reduce the number of hours I dedicate to this game. Including participating in any events.
PUGing is currently the only way I will play the STF's, because I can't commit to specific time frames. I play when the moments arise.
I don't think any MMO can ever last if they don't allow for, and probably cater to, the PUGing crowd or the Casual Player. If you don't have something in place for at least one of these groups to feel like they are p[rogressing and that game will not last, I beleive.
This is complete propaganda. You are tying up the PuG population, the casual player base to a playerbase "who insist play PuGs advance that refuse to improve self, refuse to team, refuse to go to normal/advance, whine in the forums" who are completely different player bases.
How sure are you that those players who play in PuGs are like you in mentality?
How sure are you that the PuG is even dead not just a timelapse where good PuGs and PuGs tend to finish fast while in between PuGs are the one you see? Do you have the stat for that? You will only notice this PuG failure if you in PuG advance cannot carry PuG advance yourself.
How sure are you that these players who complain about advance are even casuals? The definition of casual is either by mentality or time. If it is mentality then these players who whine in the forums these arent casuals since casual players shouldnt care to success or fail. Because they are casuals. That kind of players are just hard core players who are being outcompeted by other hard core players.
If it is time. How can a player who is insufficient to carry an advance, like those who whine about advance in the forums, even play less time than those who can carry advance can be considered casual? This insufficient players may play 15-30 mins per mission because they are not that good while those who can carry advance but cannot do elite will do it in 3-4 Mins. So how can this playerbase "who insists to play PuGs advance that refuse to improve self, refuse to team, refuse to go to normal/advance, whine in the forums" be even considered casual when they play more time?
You support my statement, that Normals don't train you for the Advanced. The New Optionals that Advanced bring sre not in Normal. There is nothing in Normal that will train you or prepare you to do those new optionals because they are not there.
As for discussing before or after, yes nothing stopping from talking, but at the end when everyone warps out right away, makes it hard to talk to others. And talking before is started but there is not always enough time as some people watch the cut scenes rather than escape out of it. SO it's hard to talk to someone who doesn't see the converstion at all.
And just because some Advanced is new to me does not make that a new STF on normal. Just the new things that Advance add is new to me. And trying to figuire out the best way to handle the required and NEW optionals with people gets cut short when timiers start up.
SO unlike you say, the strategy is NOT the same since there is NEW optionals that are there to do and now the optionals are NOT optional anymore. Running normal to completion while ignoring the optionals will NOT prepare you to run Advanced. Because the strategy is way different.
No, I do not support you comment, as normals do train people but, only people seemingly that can grasp the game play strategies apparently and, read!
They more than perfectly train people, it's just people don't use their common sense to actually learn from them, which is why I see people making the exact same mistakes in advanced, as they do normal.
If they cannot accomplish a simple optional objective in normal, how do they expect advanced is going to be?
Both have the same objectives, nothing different, same strategies used so, what is their excuse?
You don't need to discuss anything once it is done, after all, if it is a completion, than people most likely know wth needs done.
Unless it is a completely new STF, than no, otherwise the old ones are still exactly the same, unless you have no idea wth you are doing.
And, part of the issue I already see, is you listing bypassing the optionals on normal.
If you bypass them, than naturally people are causing it upon themselves not to learn anything, to prepare themselves for advanced, plain and simple.
And, optionals are always optional, the only change from normal - advanced, is what was an optional in normal, now becomes a mandatory objective, nothing else is different.
People still think it is an optional and, don't bother hence netting themselves a fail, when all they have to do is actually look on their screen and, see what the mandatory objective(s) are.
It's in plain sight, provided people actually do not turn off their UI part and/or, actually look to see what it says.
No, I do not support you comment, as normals do train people but, only people seemingly that can grasp the game play strategies apparently and, read!
They more than perfectly train people, it's just people don't use their common sense to actually learn from them, which is why I see people making the exact same mistakes in advanced, as they do normal.
If they cannot accomplish a simple optional objective in normal, how do they expect advanced is going to be?
Both have the same objectives, nothing different, same strategies used so, what is their excuse?
You don't need to discuss anything once it is done, after all, if it is a completion, than people most likely know wth needs done.
Unless it is a completely new STF, than no, otherwise the old ones are still exactly the same, unless you have no idea wth you are doing.
And, part of the issue I already see, is you listing bypassing the optionals on normal.
If you bypass them, than naturally people are causing it upon themselves not to learn anything, to prepare themselves for advanced, plain and simple.
And, optionals are always optional, the only change from normal - advanced, is what was an optional in normal, now becomes a mandatory objective, nothing else is different.
People still think it is an optional and, don't bother hence netting themselves a fail, when all they have to do is actually look on their screen and, see what the mandatory objective(s) are.
It's in plain sight, provided people actually do not turn off their UI part and/or, actually look to see what it says.
When optinals are not needed to complete the content, and the optionals don't grant that big of a bonus on loot, it bomes more efficient to skip the optionals to complete the content. Hence nothing forcing you to learn the tactics necessary to complete ex-optional and now madatory content when going from normal to Advance. And then the New optionals are present, and are not required to complete the content, again nothing in Normal teaches you about the new Optionals since they don't exist in Normal.
And people will naturally fall upon the most efficient ways to get loot. And if optionals are not worth the time to complete due to lackluster rewards, then optionals are skipped in favor of content completion and efficient reward gathering.
And discussing after completing content is the best way to figure out if there is a better way to get the content done. To find the most efficient ways to complete said content to get said rewards. Discussion at the end is vital to learning. Just because you completed something doesn't mean you did it the best way possible. And you won't know that till you talk about what happened and think on what else could have been done.
This is complete propaganda. You are tying up the PuG population, the casual player base to a playerbase "who insist play PuGs advance that refuse to improve self, refuse to team, refuse to go to normal/advance, whine in the forums" who are completely different player bases.
How sure are you that those players who play in PuGs are like you in mentality?
How sure are you that the PuG is even dead not just a timelapse where good PuGs and PuGs tend to finish fast while in between PuGs are the one you see? Do you have the stat for that? You will only notice this PuG failure if you in PuG advance cannot carry PuG advance yourself.
How sure are you that these players who complain about advance are even casuals? The definition of casual is either by mentality or time. If it is mentality then these players who whine in the forums these arent casuals since casual players shouldnt care to success or fail. Because they are casuals. That kind of players are just hard core players who are being outcompeted by other hard core players.
If it is time. How can a player who is insufficient to carry an advance, like those who whine about advance in the forums, even play less time than those who can carry advance can be considered casual? This insufficient players may play 15-30 mins per mission because they are not that good while those who can carry advance but cannot do elite will do it in 3-4 Mins. So how can this playerbase "who insists to play PuGs advance that refuse to improve self, refuse to team, refuse to go to normal/advance, whine in the forums" be even considered casual when they play more time?
Actually, I am not "tying an entire player base" to anything. What I am saying is that if they eliminate PUGing, that an entire playerbase will lose any hope of playing queued content and will solely be stuck playing solo content. And that is limited and will drive the casual type player away from the game.
And to clarify the term "casual" as I use it...Casuals are people who do not have some combination of time, desire, money or skill to be a Hardcore player. Hardcore players are those that have the combination of time, desire, money and skill to be the very best at whatever content they enjoy playing.
I am a casual player, more because of time and money than due to skill or desire. I have to much of a life to be able to dedicate to a game on a more hardcore level.
I am sure that there is enough of the puggable community and of the casual community that think that they can get better if they just had people to learn from at the pace that they are able to dedicate to learn at. I am sure that a majority of those people do not talk on the forums or anywhere else. I am sure of this because, being a player of this game for years, I have only recently started talking on the forums and even more rarely in game. I know this because I see my own Fleet, and the level of talking that some members do. And the reasons they don't talk much, at least what they say after I ask them why they don't say much when in game.
I am also sure that none of this applies 100% accross the board to all people. BUt I am sure that there is a percentage of players that it does fit, that it's significant, and reason to be considered.
And with Cryptic withholding any means to gather any statistacal data about the game and playerbase connected to this specific game, there is no method available that will be 100% accurate, complete and reliable. And not something I have the power or ability to change. So all data collection is purely imperical and subjectected to the constraints of my experience, time and communication.
I have never made any statements about the level of involvement related to the posters here on the forum. There is no way I would have that data at this time. Nor have I considered it relavant to anything I have been discussing. I f you beleive that it's relavant, then by all means collect the data and present to us.
And unless you think I am complaining about this, which I haven't, I don't know where the statements involving people complaining on the forums is coming from.
I am not complaining, I am merely stating the opinion that I think it would be better if the fail conditions were removed and all STF's were redesigned with the concept of progression advancement from Normal to Advanced to Elite was built into it. That way, actuall progression can be measured, felt and followed. And the game would inherently teach everyone how to complete the content.
Actually, I am not "tying an entire player base" to anything. What I am saying is that if they eliminate PUGing, that an entire playerbase will lose any hope of playing queued content and will solely be stuck playing solo content. And that is limited and will drive the casual type player away from the game.
And to clarify the term "casual" as I use it...Casuals are people who do not have some combination of time, desire, money or skill to be a Hardcore player. Hardcore players are those that have the combination of time, desire, money and skill to be the very best at whatever content they enjoy playing.
I am a casual player, more because of time and money than due to skill or desire. I have to much of a life to be able to dedicate to a game on a more hardcore level.
I am sure that there is enough of the puggable community and of the casual community that think that they can get better if they just had people to learn from at the pace that they are able to dedicate to learn at. I am sure that a majority of those people do not talk on the forums or anywhere else. I am sure of this because, being a player of this game for years, I have only recently started talking on the forums and even more rarely in game. I know this because I see my own Fleet, and the level of talking that some members do. And the reasons they don't talk much, at least what they say after I ask them why they don't say much when in game.
I am also sure that none of this applies 100% accross the board to all people. BUt I am sure that there is a percentage of players that it does fit, that it's significant, and reason to be considered.
And with Cryptic withholding any means to gather any statistacal data about the game and playerbase connected to this specific game, there is no method available that will be 100% accurate, complete and reliable. And not something I have the power or ability to change. So all data collection is purely imperical and subjectected to the constraints of my experience, time and communication.
I have never made any statements about the level of involvement related to the posters here on the forum. There is no way I would have that data at this time. Nor have I considered it relavant to anything I have been discussing. I f you beleive that it's relavant, then by all means collect the data and present to us.
And unless you think I am complaining about this, which I haven't, I don't know where the statements involving people complaining on the forums is coming from.
I am not complaining, I am merely stating the opinion that I think it would be better if the fail conditions were removed and all STF's were redesigned with the concept of progression advancement from Normal to Advanced to Elite was built into it. That way, actuall progression can be measured, felt and followed. And the game would inherently teach everyone how to complete the content.
You mean like teh STF were back in 2012 and 2013? Farm normals til your face turns blue to get you marks to get your MkX gear. Then hit ADV at the time to start the farm again, this time for your MkXI gear. Then do it again to get your MkXII gear?
When optinals are not needed to complete the content, and the optionals don't grant that big of a bonus on loot, it bomes more efficient to skip the optionals to complete the content. Hence nothing forcing you to learn the tactics necessary to complete ex-optional and now madatory content when going from normal to Advance. And then the New optionals are present, and are not required to complete the content, again nothing in Normal teaches you about the new Optionals since they don't exist in Normal.
The New Optionals that Advanced bring sre not in Normal.
]Er...new Optionals? There are new Objectives in Advanced that are not in Normal? Could be, I don't run every queue - but could you give an example of one?
Cause it's pretty much a case of Optional(s) and Mandatory in Normal which goes to Optional(s), Mandatory, and Mandatory in Advanced...where that Mandatory in Normal and the second one in Advanced are whatever needs to be done to complete the run - whether it's actually doing something or remaining in the instance for a certain period of time for it to complete.[/QUOTE]
You mean like teh STF were back in 2012 and 2013? Farm normals til your face turns blue to get you marks to get your MkX gear. Then hit ADV at the time to start the farm again, this time for your MkXI gear. Then do it again to get your MkXII gear?
Yes and No.
Same idea, with out the random factor. And work out a better way to execute it.
I am at work, so unable to pull up the specifics. When I get the time during my game time, I will try to list out the data.
Once 49 seconds have gone, you will get to read this note....lol
I was just wondering if it was a terminology/language thing or something in a queue that I either don't run or don't pay attention to...that sort of thing. Heh, there's no rush...but I'm pretty sure you'll be going around in circles with shadowwraith77 on that otherwise.
I was just wondering if it was a terminology/language thing or something in a queue that I either don't run or don't pay attention to...that sort of thing. Heh, there's no rush...but I'm pretty sure you'll be going around in circles with shadowwraith77 on that otherwise.
When originally announced, they said that Normals would have optional objectives, and Advanced would turn the normal objectives to mandatory objectives and new optional objectives would be added. Elite did the samething while keeping the Advanced Mandatories as mandatories. Supposed to be happening accross the board.
ANRA no longer has mandatories under this new setup. Not that the optionals are any more acheivable at this moment on a reliable and consistant manner.
When originally announced, they said that Normals would have optional objectives, and Advanced would turn the normal objectives to mandatory objectives and new optional objectives would be added. Elite did the samething while keeping the Advanced Mandatories as mandatories. Supposed to be happening accross the board.
ANRA no longer has mandatories under this new setup. Not that the optionals are any more acheivable at this moment on a reliable and consistant manner.
There have been a bunch of folks talking about the Mandatory Optionals...the Mandatory as Optionals...etc, while others have viewed those as Objectives that went from Optional to Mandatory. Can't have a Mandatory Optional...it's a Mandatory...that sort of thing.
But that was with the Elite -> Advanced conversions. If a queue didn't have an Elite or didn't even exist prior to Delta Rising...then they wouldn't necessarily match up to that.
Actually, I am not "tying an entire player base" to anything. What I am saying is that if they eliminate PUGing, that an entire playerbase will lose any hope of playing queued content and will solely be stuck playing solo content. And that is limited and will drive the casual type player away from the game.
The game doesnt drive casual gamers from the game. It drives spoiled and self entitled players.
And to clarify the term "casual" as I use it...Casuals are people who do not have some combination of time, desire, money or skill to be a Hardcore player. Hardcore players are those that have the combination of time, desire, money and skill to be the very best at whatever content they enjoy playing.
I am a casual player, more because of time and money than due to skill or desire. I have to much of a life to be able to dedicate to a game on a more hardcore level.
Let us simplify the definition. Self entitled, spoiled and incompetent players. By your defintion casual is mentality, If you are casual player, you shouldnt care about the rewards. Because regardless of completion or not you still can enjoy the game since enjoying is mentality. By demanding that you have completion, you are self entitled, spoiled because you want to finish advance but because you and your group are incompetent are unable to finish it.
Sorry, but thats what playerbase you want to help but are trying to avoid of stigma of definition of what kind of playerbase you want.
I am sure that there is enough of the puggable community and of the casual community that think that they can get better if they just had people to learn from at the pace that they are able to dedicate to learn at. I am sure that a majority of those people do not talk on the forums or anywhere else. I am sure of this because, being a player of this game for years, I have only recently started talking on the forums and even more rarely in game. I know this because I see my own Fleet, and the level of talking that some members do. And the reasons they don't talk much, at least what they say after I ask them why they don't say much when in game.
I am also sure that none of this applies 100% accross the board to all people. BUt I am sure that there is a percentage of players that it does fit, that it's significant, and reason to be considered.
There is a PuGgable community. The problem for the current advance is not the whole PuGgable community. It is those players who think they belong in Advance, but refuse to improves self, improve team by getting out of PuG, or refuse to go to normal or go to solo mission where teams dont matter. Even you definition of a casual player defines that you refuse to improve yourself fits very well on the playerbase you are trying to help.
All you assumptions of population are just propaganda without Cryptic giving actual numbers. Just like all the rants here in the forum about a certain playerbase without basis.
I am not complaining, I am merely stating the opinion that I think it would be better if the fail conditions were removed and all STF's were redesigned with the concept of progression advancement from Normal to Advanced to Elite was built into it. That way, actuall progression can be measured, felt and followed. And the game would inherently teach everyone how to complete the content.
Sorry but whatever you want doesnt help players. There are objectives that are crisp clear in both normal and advance that are not being followed in advance. To simplify the situation, In Normal almost everything is optional. Players who finish normal dont do the optionals are the ones who are having a hard time in advance.
So I dont see no reason why changing stuff in advance would change this when players refuse to follow crisp clear objectives except catering for the self entitled, spoiled players who cannot follow instructions.
There have been a bunch of folks talking about the Mandatory Optionals...the Mandatory as Optionals...etc, while others have viewed those as Objectives that went from Optional to Mandatory. Can't have a Mandatory Optional...it's a Mandatory...that sort of thing.
But that was with the Elite -> Advanced conversions. If a queue didn't have an Elite or didn't even exist prior to Delta Rising...then they wouldn't necessarily match up to that.
Since there are several STF's that I have not played since they split them into Normal\Advanced\Elite levels, is why I said gave the above generalizations and why I said I would get specifics for you once I have the time in game to actually record that info.
Being that I usually don't get a lot of time for gaming, I don't tend to right down the stuff I see in game. Families can be so time consuming
Heh, I once joked with some folks about how it might be cool to have a large screen TV or a projector...buy some of these http://xkeys.com/xkeys.php for different folks to use...and making it sort of a team effort to play; where each person was responsible for their little part of it to turn it into a group activity. Then I remembered I wasn't independently wealthy, heh.
edit: And lol, even if I was...could imagine all the arguments over who gets to do what...all the fighting over somebody doing something wrong. Such a hassle, lol.
The game doesnt drive casual gamers from the game. It drives spoiled and self entitled players.
Let us simplify the definition. Self entitled, spoiled and incompetent players. By your defintion casual is mentality, If you are casual player, you shouldnt care about the rewards. Because regardless of completion or not you still can enjoy the game since enjoying is mentality. By demanding that you have completion, you are self entitled, spoiled because you want to finish advance but because you and your group are incompetent are unable to finish it.
Sorry, but thats what playerbase you want to help but are trying to avoid of stigma of definition of what kind of playerbase you want.
There is a PuGgable community. The problem for the current advance is not the whole PuGgable community. It is those players who think they belong in Advance, but refuse to improves self, improve team by getting out of PuG, or refuse to go to normal or go to solo mission where teams dont matter. Even you definition of a casual player defines that you refuse to improve yourself fits very well on the playerbase you are trying to help.
All you assumptions of population are just propaganda without Cryptic giving actual numbers. Just like all the rants here in the forum about a certain playerbase without basis.
Sorry but whatever you want doesnt help players. There are objectives that are crisp clear in both normal and advance that are not being followed in advance. To simplify the situation, In Normal almost everything is optional. Players who finish normal dont do the optionals are the ones who are having a hard time in advance.
So I dont see no reason why changing stuff in advance would change this when players refuse to follow crisp clear objectives except catering for the self entitled, spoiled players who cannot follow instructions.
So anyone who leaves the game is self-entitled? That's what your first sentance reads as.
Your "simplification" of my definition actually is even close to my definition. You just threw everything I wrote out the window and substituded your own opinion. Sorry but that isn't going to fly with me. Your simplified definition is not even in the same galaxy as to what my definition is. Casual, in the simplest of terms, is someone you is not Hardcore because he is deficient enough in one OR more catagories. Those catagories being Time, Resources, Skill and Desire. It is not simply a mental thing, but a combination of things beyond just the mind.
I am not demanding anything of what you are saying. I am asking that the content be designed in order to help players progress and get better. That the content be designed in such a way to as to actually teach you what you need to know to get better. And that the rewards be designed so that once you have completed one content level consistanly well, that you will have the necessary gear, skill and knowledge to tackle the next level of gear.
STF's are clearly not designed in this manner.
And as a Casual Player, I can concern myself with the rewards. What about being casual means you can't like or want loot? Nothing. Loot is the reward for succeeding at content? If I completed an Advanced queue, shouldn't I get the same loot as a hardcare player gets for completing the same content?
To me, the only real difference will be often the Hardcore guy will be how often he/she will be able to get through the content in the same time as a casual will have.
As for the "propaganda" comment about numbers. What I stated was a fact. The fact is that Cryptic doesn't release that data. I have not stated one way or another if that was good or bad. Only that They don;t release that data to the public. I also stated, based on the fact that we don't have access to such data, that any data that is gathered is never going to provable as being a viable statistical representation of the STO playerbase at large. And because of that, any "evidence" that I would base my conclusion I could not not reasonably beleive be replicatable. Therefor, all such numbers and data is purely based on my experience of the game, and can no way be construed as statistical evidence that what I say is true. And that any conclusions would have to be considered only in the light of that bias. For I have no realistic method of comparing if my data is consistant with the actual statistical sampling of the true database. It is nothing more than a statement of the limititations of mine or any one elses data. Unless they have access to the cryptic database, there is no one that can claim otherwise.
The rest of what you say is basically your own opnion as to why you think this is not a good idea, backed by only your pessimistic viewpoint of other players. And not on my specified definition.
Please don't attempt to rewrite what I say. If you have a point to make, do so in manner that is not condenscending to others. And if you can't elevate yourself to the point of thinking that other players can and do wish to get better at the game and do wish to have better loot, even casuals, then we are at an empasse. For your desire to hold down people for being casuals is what your are presenting to me. And I do not agree with your position, nor will there be a way to reconcile our difference. Because the points are based on a opinion of the general characters of others and thier desire to learn, grow and succeed.
Heh, I once joked with some folks about how it might be cool to have a large screen TV or a projector...buy some of these http://xkeys.com/xkeys.php for different folks to use...and making it sort of a team effort to play; where each person was responsible for their little part of it to turn it into a group activity. Then I remembered I wasn't independently wealthy, heh.
edit: And lol, even if I was...could imagine all the arguments over who gets to do what...all the fighting over somebody doing something wrong. Such a hassle, lol.
I can see that as being very interesting. But you would have to have the right group of people to do that. I could see getting ugly at times
But the fun that my group of friends would turn it into would make the arguing worth it. Heck, even the arguments would be fun to watch at times. The logic used to prove points.....:eek:
Heh, I once joked with some folks about how it might be cool to have a large screen TV or a projector...buy some of these http://xkeys.com/xkeys.php for different folks to use...and making it sort of a team effort to play; where each person was responsible for their little part of it to turn it into a group activity. Then I remembered I wasn't independently wealthy, heh.
edit: And lol, even if I was...could imagine all the arguments over who gets to do what...all the fighting over somebody doing something wrong. Such a hassle, lol.
Now I wish I was rich enough that i could afford something like that haha. I could totally get my friends to go for it once or twice as a game night thing.
When optinals are not needed to complete the content, and the optionals don't grant that big of a bonus on loot, it bomes more efficient to skip the optionals to complete the content. Hence nothing forcing you to learn the tactics necessary to complete ex-optional and now madatory content when going from normal to Advance. And then the New optionals are present, and are not required to complete the content, again nothing in Normal teaches you about the new Optionals since they don't exist in Normal.
And people will naturally fall upon the most efficient ways to get loot. And if optionals are not worth the time to complete due to lackluster rewards, then optionals are skipped in favor of content completion and efficient reward gathering.
And discussing after completing content is the best way to figure out if there is a better way to get the content done. To find the most efficient ways to complete said content to get said rewards. Discussion at the end is vital to learning. Just because you completed something doesn't mean you did it the best way possible. And you won't know that till you talk about what happened and think on what else could have been done.
Now, this is one giant lame excuse, if people are to lame to bother with going for an optional in normal, than the same would be expected of them in advanced would it not?
This is their problem and, not something that should be catered to, by changing advanced to follow in the same footsteps.
If they know what the optional is in normal and, decide to skip it, than they should have the common sense, to read what the objective is and, what is optional in advanced as well.
No excuses!
Discussing at the end, isn't really needed if they all completed it, because they got it done and, if they skip the optional as you say, than they have no real intent to stick around seeing how they are as you say, after the most efficient means of accomplishment.
Since they would most likely move on to another!
Most people don't care, as you see about how it gets done, just so long as it gets done.
So, its no wonder most people leave when it is finished.
That's not saying, it's a bad thing to go over a battle strategy at the beginning/end but, in a PUG 99% of the time, you may never see this person again during another PUG queue.
Hence another reason, people don't bother to formulate a plan, it's just know wth to do and, get the job done asap.
The strategy between normal and advanced is 99.9% exactly the same, it's just many people don't even fathom but maybe 0% - 45%, of ANY proven strategy that always works.
Don't know the objectives, don't know where their allies are, don't know where enemies comes from, etc., etc., etc.!
And, this doesn't even touch upon build design, power settings, piloting effectiveness, etc.!
Now, this is one giant lame excuse, if people are to lame to bother with going for an optional in normal, than the same would be expected of them in advanced would it not?
This is their problem and, not something that should be catered to, by changing advanced to follow in the same footsteps.
If they know what the optional is in normal and, decide to skip it, than they should have the common sense, to read what the objective is and, what is optional in advanced as well.
No excuses!
Discussing at the end, isn't really needed if they all completed it, because they got it done and, if they skip the optional as you say, than they have no real intent to stick around seeing how they are as you say, after the most efficient means of accomplishment.
Since they would most likely move on to another!
Most people don't care, as you see about how it gets done, just so long as it gets done.
So, its no wonder most people leave when it is finished.
That's not saying, it's a bad thing to go over a battle strategy at the beginning/end but, in a PUG 99% of the time, you may never see this person again during another PUG queue.
Hence another reason, people don't bother to formulate a plan, it's just know wth to do and, get the job done asap.
The strategy between normal and advanced is 99.9% exactly the same, it's just many people don't even fathom but maybe 0% - 45%, of ANY proven strategy that always works.
Don't know the objectives, don't know where their allies are, don't know where enemies comes from, etc., etc., etc.!
And, this doesn't even touch upon build design, power settings, piloting effectiveness, etc.!
Not Lame, because the optionals being optionals are not needed to complete the content. And the rewards garnered from completeling the optionals don't warrent the effort necessary to complete them. So not lame, just efficient.
And from the times I have been in normal, in space, it has been my experience that people don't even try to complete the optionals. For they feel no need to do them. Now if the there was worthy reward to complete the optionals, or better yetthey part of the mission to be done (without timers and failures) then this would really up the factor were they have to learn the tactics to do that part of the content. But as in any MMO that I have played, if the reward is not there to complete the content, and it doesn't provide a barrier to completing the content, then most people will bypass the content and do only the most efficient work to reward requirements as needed.
And if you don't need to know the content to complete the content, then on the next layer of content were you require it is where you will figure out how to do it. Because it's become necessary.
As for builds and such, Solo content should be training people how to put builds together. And Solo content should be teaching people ability rotations. But it doesn't. Nor does STF's or any other content in the game. There is nothing in STO itself that really teache you about the various abilities , skills and traits and why you would put certain combinations together.
And that is Cryptic's false, for it shouldn't be left to the playerbase to teach people who to play the game.
Not Lame, because the optionals being optionals are not needed to complete the content. And the rewards garnered from completeling the optionals don't warrent the effort necessary to complete them. So not lame, just efficient.
And from the times I have been in normal, in space, it has been my experience that people don't even try to complete the optionals. For they feel no need to do them. Now if the there was worthy reward to complete the optionals, or better yetthey part of the mission to be done (without timers and failures) then this would really up the factor were they have to learn the tactics to do that part of the content. But as in any MMO that I have played, if the reward is not there to complete the content, and it doesn't provide a barrier to completing the content, then most people will bypass the content and do only the most efficient work to reward requirements as needed.
If you make stuff optional in advance that were mandatory, it will have the same scenario as normal. People refusing to learn. What do you think players will change their attitudes suddenly in advance? They wont. If you make mandatories and optionals in normal/advance the same, no one will do the optionals except non PuGs because it is a waste of time. Why would you prolong people leeching from you when you know you are the one carrying them? Those players who want to learn will learn in the current mechanics. Those who refuse to learn will never learn even if you change the mechanics, unless the change themselves.
So we are going back to spoiled and self entitlement. I am sorry but that is the only way to define these players who refuse to improve self, refuse to stay at normal/solo missions and avoid advance, refuse to improve teammates by going to find competent communities but demands to finish advance difficulty.
As for builds and such, Solo content should be training people how to put builds together. And Solo content should be teaching people ability rotations. But it doesn't. Nor does STF's or any other content in the game. There is nothing in STO itself that really teache you about the various abilities , skills and traits and why you would put certain combinations together.
And that is Cryptic's false, for it shouldn't be left to the playerbase to teach people who to play the game.
Devs already admitted they dont know how players do stuff like the DPS wizards. Because the players play, the devs develop. If you want to learn more advance stuff, you learn from those who do it everyday or frequently.
Its the players option not to improve. Not everything can be spoonfed nor wants to be spoonfed.
Not Lame, because the optionals being optionals are not needed to complete the content. And the rewards garnered from completeling the optionals don't warrent the effort necessary to complete them. So not lame, just efficient.
And from the times I have been in normal, in space, it has been my experience that people don't even try to complete the optionals. For they feel no need to do them. Now if the there was worthy reward to complete the optionals, or better yetthey part of the mission to be done (without timers and failures) then this would really up the factor were they have to learn the tactics to do that part of the content. But as in any MMO that I have played, if the reward is not there to complete the content, and it doesn't provide a barrier to completing the content, then most people will bypass the content and do only the most efficient work to reward requirements as needed.
And if you don't need to know the content to complete the content, then on the next layer of content were you require it is where you will figure out how to do it. Because it's become necessary.
As for builds and such, Solo content should be training people how to put builds together. And Solo content should be teaching people ability rotations. But it doesn't. Nor does STF's or any other content in the game. There is nothing in STO itself that really teache you about the various abilities , skills and traits and why you would put certain combinations together.
And that is Cryptic's false, for it shouldn't be left to the playerbase to teach people who to play the game.
So, it boils down to shear laziness!
I guess those who cannot complete an advanced, just seemingly figure it isn't efficient enough to bother with the mandatory right?
Because that is what causes a fail, that and someone trolling a fail!
This is what I am getting, from your excuse after excuse of posts.
If they are too lazy to bother with a normal optional, which teaches the exact strategy needed for advanced, than they obviously are too lazy to bother with learning the objectives in general and, therefore incur failures upon everyone.
Either they learn and, put forth the effort to prevent a failure or, get used to failing and suffer the small rewards, that come with that laziness and failure to learn, simple!
That, or find another game or, do something else in this game, besides whine over their own cause to mission failures!!!
If you make stuff optional in advance that were mandatory, it will have the same scenario as normal. People refusing to learn. What do you think players will change their attitudes suddenly in advance? They wont. If you make mandatories and optionals in normal/advance the same, no one will do the optionals except non PuGs because it is a waste of time. Why would you prolong people leeching from you when you know you are the one carrying them? Those players who want to learn will learn in the current mechanics. Those who refuse to learn will never learn even if you change the mechanics, unless the change themselves.
So we are going back to spoiled and self entitlement. I am sorry but that is the only way to define these players who refuse to improve self, refuse to stay at normal/solo missions and avoid advance, refuse to improve teammates by going to find competent communities but demands to finish advance difficulty.
Devs already admitted they dont know how players do stuff like the DPS wizards. Because the players play, the devs develop. If you want to learn more advance stuff, you learn from those who do it everyday or frequently.
Its the players option not to improve. Not everything can be spoonfed nor wants to be spoonfed.
Not looking to make mandatory stuff optional. Just looking to take timers off of mandatory stuff so that people will have a reason to talk and figure it out. Make them do the content, just don't put the added preasure of beating a clock. Difficulty can be maintained without the timers.
If you change the mechanics to support teamwork and communication then you will get it. I am saying that there is nothing in the Normals or Advance modes that supports or incentivises teamwork or communication. Timers are detrimental to planing and teamwork. Especially in PUG's.
You return to the "Spoiled and Self Entitled" mode only because you don't see that you can make things mandatory without Timers? DO you see that it is possibly to make things to be done without timers? Do you see how timers are detrimental to teamwork and communication in PUG's?
Not everything needs to be spoonfed to the players, just all of the basics need to be gtaught. But as it stands now, nothing in the game teaches you what the skills do. Or how the gear, skills, traits and specializations work in unison. None of the base information that is need to understand why you need a build a certain way is laid out in the game. The game needs to teach those basics, not the playerbase.
And if the Devs can't figure out how the DPS Wizards do stuff, then they need to start talking to those guys and find out how they are doing this.
I guess those who cannot complete an advanced, just seemingly figure it isn't efficient enough to bother with the mandatory right?
Because that is what causes a fail, that and someone trolling a fail!
This is what I am getting, from your excuse after excuse of posts.
If they are too lazy to bother with a normal optional, which teaches the exact strategy needed for advanced, than they obviously are too lazy to bother with learning the objectives in general and, therefore incur failures upon everyone.
Either they learn and, put forth the effort to prevent a failure or, get used to failing and suffer the small rewards, that come with that laziness and failure to learn, simple!
That, or find another game or, do something else in this game, besides whine over their own cause to mission failures!!!
No. You are chopping up things in a angry manner without looking at the whole statement. Doing something eficiently is not lazy, but making the most of your time. People don't do the optionals in Normals because the effort reward ratio is not worth the time investment. And since the content can be completed with out it, the efficiently get through the content to get on to the next thing. This does not prepare them for Advance, and there is nothing in Normals forcing them to have to prepare for Advance.
In Advance, you notice that your one time optionals are now mandatory and on a timer. You don't stop to talk because you feel pressured by the limited time to go do it. But not ever having to do it before, you go do it blindly. And even if you do have plan to get the optional done, maybe someone else has a different plan on how to get it done? It could even be a situation where there are 5 different plans in motion, all of witch will fail if not everyone is on board to to the same thing. And in this enviroment of "no time for talking act before time runs out" how do you learn how to complete the content.
My specific forays into this has garnered me the plan of watching all of my team mates, tattempt communications, but usually I just see what the strongest DPS person is doing and then go support them in thier efforts. Usually the strongest DPS player has had the most experience in the content from pre-made efforts or numerous runs of PUG's. Regardless, this plan, while increasing the likelyhood of success, does nothing to actually teach me what I should be doing towards completing the content. Mainly because I don't understand the plan, and I don't understand the reasining for some of the choices of action. But it is currently the most efficent means to my ends of successful mission run.
Before Delta Rising, I would pop into an STF, and people would talk, and say what thje plan is. They would call out what order target are to be done. Or specifically say what order things are to be accomplished. And this was great, for it was a plan, it allowed me the ability to ask why things are being done in a certain way, and to comprehend the reasons things are being done in certain manner. Since timers that are not activated by actions have been implemented, my experience has taken a 180. No talking, no planing. Just Gun and Run and not a care in the world if people know what is to be done, because there is no time to waste on that. Either this gets done in time, or you drop out and leave upon failure.
So instead of playing this pissing contest of name calling, and saying that others are lazy and creating excuses. Instead you should be looking at what is really being said, which are not excuses, and maybe looking at the situation for what it it truly is, a problem to be solved. And solving that problem will make the game better for everyone who wants to run the content with a real chance at success.
Your last two lines are antoginistic and not condusive to intelligent discussion ober the issue. They look to be placed there purely to cause anger and illicet an angry response. Why are you so incline to do this when there is no need for it?
While I agree the changes have made the optional objectives meaningless.
But when certain ways to get progression awards was tied to them was the problem with them I had.
Instead of dropping the optional requirements they should have changed how to get those objective items to say a daily (or even weekly in the case of tech) for normal mode, and just increased amounts for Advanced and Elite.
Advanced and Elite should be for those who want a challenge, not a barrier to progression and rewards.
While I agree the changes have made the optional objectives meaningless.
But when certain ways to get progression awards was tied to them was the problem with them I had.
Instead of dropping the optional requirements they should have changed how to get those objective items to say a daily (or even weekly in the case of tech) for normal mode, and just increased amounts for Advanced and Elite.
Advanced and Elite should be for those who want a challenge, not a barrier to progression and rewards.
Agreed.
I think that is why there is so much hullaballu over Advance now. Because people who are woefully underprepared, under skilled and/or undergeared are heading into Advanced to get the progression mats needed to upgrade.
I know that I am dreaming when I say I would really like to see more than one avenue for progression and gearing in STO.
But there is only one in the game, STF's. Because all the mats to upgrade gear is there in Advanced and Elite content only.
Comments
It better not be, if PUGing goes away, then the vast majority of the casual playerbase will follow suit. I may not leave, but I would certainly reduce the number of hours I dedicate to this game. Including participating in any events.
PUGing is currently the only way I will play the STF's, because I can't commit to specific time frames. I play when the moments arise.
I don't think any MMO can ever last if they don't allow for, and probably cater to, the PUGing crowd or the Casual Player. If you don't have something in place for at least one of these groups to feel like they are p[rogressing and that game will not last, I beleive.
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RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
There is nothing preventing you from discussing strategy, at the very beginning of the mission, before the clock even starts so, post failure here on this argument. Besides, you should not even need much talking strategy, as you ALL should know wth needs done and, how to get it done!
If they are new to you, than obviously you are inexperienced and, need more game time apparently, as timers have been around way before DR landed, it's just now they have stiffer fails attached to them.
Actually, they do, if people actually pay attention, since the optionals are exactly the same, as is the strategy.
The only difference between a normal and advanced, is optional becomes mandatory + new optional [not mandatory], tougher enemies + more of them and, possibly less time to complete mission, simple!
Didn't learn this from normal, it's you own fault, didn't manage to learn how to get the optional correctly on normal, than you are going to be a complete failure on advanced as well!
This is the fault of the players, as the timer doesn't start until people engage it, otherwise there is plenty of time in the beginning [few missions are an exception].
All matter of opinion, as there are plenty of players who are perfectly fine, with the challenge they currently provide.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
You support my statement, that Normals don't train you for the Advanced. The New Optionals that Advanced bring sre not in Normal. There is nothing in Normal that will train you or prepare you to do those new optionals because they are not there.
As for discussing before or after, yes nothing stopping from talking, but at the end when everyone warps out right away, makes it hard to talk to others. And talking before is started but there is not always enough time as some people watch the cut scenes rather than escape out of it. SO it's hard to talk to someone who doesn't see the converstion at all.
And just because some Advanced is new to me does not make that a new STF on normal. Just the new things that Advance add is new to me. And trying to figuire out the best way to handle the required and NEW optionals with people gets cut short when timiers start up.
SO unlike you say, the strategy is NOT the same since there is NEW optionals that are there to do and now the optionals are NOT optional anymore. Running normal to completion while ignoring the optionals will NOT prepare you to run Advanced. Because the strategy is way different.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
Er...new Optionals? There are new Objectives in Advanced that are not in Normal? Could be, I don't run every queue - but could you give an example of one?
Cause it's pretty much a case of Optional(s) and Mandatory in Normal which goes to Optional(s), Mandatory, and Mandatory in Advanced...where that Mandatory in Normal and the second one in Advanced are whatever needs to be done to complete the run - whether it's actually doing something or remaining in the instance for a certain period of time for it to complete.
oh please, thats a massive overreaction.
People played before the insta-fails and they still kept going after every ship they saw I never once saw anyone sit on their TRIBBLE in azura why? because there were things to blow up and objectives to complete just because something isnt required does not mean that they will stop once they've achieved the requirement. You know what "fun" is right? people play to have fun and they will continue to play regardless of whether they have completed their objective or not because theres still more to do while there.
as for the "learning" experience, frankly it wasnt needed in the first place I have rarely ever failed the optionals pre-DR and the reason why people were failing post DR wasnt because of advanced tactics from mobs or a vastly improved AI, it was because cryptic slapped a ton of damage resistance, shields and HP points on ships while increasing the ships DPS output as well. the DPS output alone isnt a bad idea but the extra tankyness the mobs went to was a mistake, a little bit more tank is not a problem but the absured amounts they are at right now even after being nerfed for a casual player (who make up the bulk of the community) is game changer they will either never play a queue again or lose interest in the end game entirely and leave.
Now the current situation is either:
A) people dont have enough more or time to spend ages grinding and upgrading
or
C) players simply couldnt or didnt want to go mass end DPS which resulted in only a select group of individuals being able to complete specific queues easily.
add all those together and you have dead queues.
you either make them fun to play or enjoyable for the player base or you have content which isnt played.
As for learning at all frankly as I said I have rarely failed optionals pre-DR why? because a lot of people knew what they were doing, sure you had people who didnt and there were trolls but frankly I highly doubt the queues were worse than they are now. but overall more people completed optionals before than they do now and I have yet to see any evidence contradicting that. The forced "lessons" were not and are not nessasary. You want to teach someone you make a tutorial. lol
This is complete propaganda. You are tying up the PuG population, the casual player base to a playerbase "who insist play PuGs advance that refuse to improve self, refuse to team, refuse to go to normal/advance, whine in the forums" who are completely different player bases.
How sure are you that those players who play in PuGs are like you in mentality?
How sure are you that the PuG is even dead not just a timelapse where good PuGs and PuGs tend to finish fast while in between PuGs are the one you see? Do you have the stat for that? You will only notice this PuG failure if you in PuG advance cannot carry PuG advance yourself.
How sure are you that these players who complain about advance are even casuals? The definition of casual is either by mentality or time. If it is mentality then these players who whine in the forums these arent casuals since casual players shouldnt care to success or fail. Because they are casuals. That kind of players are just hard core players who are being outcompeted by other hard core players.
If it is time. How can a player who is insufficient to carry an advance, like those who whine about advance in the forums, even play less time than those who can carry advance can be considered casual? This insufficient players may play 15-30 mins per mission because they are not that good while those who can carry advance but cannot do elite will do it in 3-4 Mins. So how can this playerbase "who insists to play PuGs advance that refuse to improve self, refuse to team, refuse to go to normal/advance, whine in the forums" be even considered casual when they play more time?
No, I do not support you comment, as normals do train people but, only people seemingly that can grasp the game play strategies apparently and, read!
They more than perfectly train people, it's just people don't use their common sense to actually learn from them, which is why I see people making the exact same mistakes in advanced, as they do normal.
If they cannot accomplish a simple optional objective in normal, how do they expect advanced is going to be?
Both have the same objectives, nothing different, same strategies used so, what is their excuse?
You don't need to discuss anything once it is done, after all, if it is a completion, than people most likely know wth needs done.
Unless it is a completely new STF, than no, otherwise the old ones are still exactly the same, unless you have no idea wth you are doing.
And, part of the issue I already see, is you listing bypassing the optionals on normal.
If you bypass them, than naturally people are causing it upon themselves not to learn anything, to prepare themselves for advanced, plain and simple.
And, optionals are always optional, the only change from normal - advanced, is what was an optional in normal, now becomes a mandatory objective, nothing else is different.
People still think it is an optional and, don't bother hence netting themselves a fail, when all they have to do is actually look on their screen and, see what the mandatory objective(s) are.
It's in plain sight, provided people actually do not turn off their UI part and/or, actually look to see what it says.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
When optinals are not needed to complete the content, and the optionals don't grant that big of a bonus on loot, it bomes more efficient to skip the optionals to complete the content. Hence nothing forcing you to learn the tactics necessary to complete ex-optional and now madatory content when going from normal to Advance. And then the New optionals are present, and are not required to complete the content, again nothing in Normal teaches you about the new Optionals since they don't exist in Normal.
And people will naturally fall upon the most efficient ways to get loot. And if optionals are not worth the time to complete due to lackluster rewards, then optionals are skipped in favor of content completion and efficient reward gathering.
And discussing after completing content is the best way to figure out if there is a better way to get the content done. To find the most efficient ways to complete said content to get said rewards. Discussion at the end is vital to learning. Just because you completed something doesn't mean you did it the best way possible. And you won't know that till you talk about what happened and think on what else could have been done.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
Actually, I am not "tying an entire player base" to anything. What I am saying is that if they eliminate PUGing, that an entire playerbase will lose any hope of playing queued content and will solely be stuck playing solo content. And that is limited and will drive the casual type player away from the game.
And to clarify the term "casual" as I use it...Casuals are people who do not have some combination of time, desire, money or skill to be a Hardcore player. Hardcore players are those that have the combination of time, desire, money and skill to be the very best at whatever content they enjoy playing.
I am a casual player, more because of time and money than due to skill or desire. I have to much of a life to be able to dedicate to a game on a more hardcore level.
I am sure that there is enough of the puggable community and of the casual community that think that they can get better if they just had people to learn from at the pace that they are able to dedicate to learn at. I am sure that a majority of those people do not talk on the forums or anywhere else. I am sure of this because, being a player of this game for years, I have only recently started talking on the forums and even more rarely in game. I know this because I see my own Fleet, and the level of talking that some members do. And the reasons they don't talk much, at least what they say after I ask them why they don't say much when in game.
I am also sure that none of this applies 100% accross the board to all people. BUt I am sure that there is a percentage of players that it does fit, that it's significant, and reason to be considered.
And with Cryptic withholding any means to gather any statistacal data about the game and playerbase connected to this specific game, there is no method available that will be 100% accurate, complete and reliable. And not something I have the power or ability to change. So all data collection is purely imperical and subjectected to the constraints of my experience, time and communication.
I have never made any statements about the level of involvement related to the posters here on the forum. There is no way I would have that data at this time. Nor have I considered it relavant to anything I have been discussing. I f you beleive that it's relavant, then by all means collect the data and present to us.
And unless you think I am complaining about this, which I haven't, I don't know where the statements involving people complaining on the forums is coming from.
I am not complaining, I am merely stating the opinion that I think it would be better if the fail conditions were removed and all STF's were redesigned with the concept of progression advancement from Normal to Advanced to Elite was built into it. That way, actuall progression can be measured, felt and followed. And the game would inherently teach everyone how to complete the content.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
You mean like teh STF were back in 2012 and 2013? Farm normals til your face turns blue to get you marks to get your MkX gear. Then hit ADV at the time to start the farm again, this time for your MkXI gear. Then do it again to get your MkXII gear?
Er...I'm still wondering...
[QUOTE=virusdancer;23665601
]Er...new Optionals? There are new Objectives in Advanced that are not in Normal? Could be, I don't run every queue - but could you give an example of one?
Cause it's pretty much a case of Optional(s) and Mandatory in Normal which goes to Optional(s), Mandatory, and Mandatory in Advanced...where that Mandatory in Normal and the second one in Advanced are whatever needs to be done to complete the run - whether it's actually doing something or remaining in the instance for a certain period of time for it to complete.[/QUOTE]
...what new Optionals?
Yes and No.
Same idea, with out the random factor. And work out a better way to execute it.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
I am at work, so unable to pull up the specifics. When I get the time during my game time, I will try to list out the data.
Once 49 seconds have gone, you will get to read this note....lol
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
I was just wondering if it was a terminology/language thing or something in a queue that I either don't run or don't pay attention to...that sort of thing. Heh, there's no rush...but I'm pretty sure you'll be going around in circles with shadowwraith77 on that otherwise.
When originally announced, they said that Normals would have optional objectives, and Advanced would turn the normal objectives to mandatory objectives and new optional objectives would be added. Elite did the samething while keeping the Advanced Mandatories as mandatories. Supposed to be happening accross the board.
ANRA no longer has mandatories under this new setup. Not that the optionals are any more acheivable at this moment on a reliable and consistant manner.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
Several of them simply did the following...
Normal: Optional, Optional, Optional, Mandatory
Advanced: Mandatory, Optional, Optional, Mandatory
...where nothing was added.
There have been a bunch of folks talking about the Mandatory Optionals...the Mandatory as Optionals...etc, while others have viewed those as Objectives that went from Optional to Mandatory. Can't have a Mandatory Optional...it's a Mandatory...that sort of thing.
But that was with the Elite -> Advanced conversions. If a queue didn't have an Elite or didn't even exist prior to Delta Rising...then they wouldn't necessarily match up to that.
The game doesnt drive casual gamers from the game. It drives spoiled and self entitled players.
Let us simplify the definition. Self entitled, spoiled and incompetent players. By your defintion casual is mentality, If you are casual player, you shouldnt care about the rewards. Because regardless of completion or not you still can enjoy the game since enjoying is mentality. By demanding that you have completion, you are self entitled, spoiled because you want to finish advance but because you and your group are incompetent are unable to finish it.
Sorry, but thats what playerbase you want to help but are trying to avoid of stigma of definition of what kind of playerbase you want.
There is a PuGgable community. The problem for the current advance is not the whole PuGgable community. It is those players who think they belong in Advance, but refuse to improves self, improve team by getting out of PuG, or refuse to go to normal or go to solo mission where teams dont matter. Even you definition of a casual player defines that you refuse to improve yourself fits very well on the playerbase you are trying to help.
All you assumptions of population are just propaganda without Cryptic giving actual numbers. Just like all the rants here in the forum about a certain playerbase without basis.
Sorry but whatever you want doesnt help players. There are objectives that are crisp clear in both normal and advance that are not being followed in advance. To simplify the situation, In Normal almost everything is optional. Players who finish normal dont do the optionals are the ones who are having a hard time in advance.
So I dont see no reason why changing stuff in advance would change this when players refuse to follow crisp clear objectives except catering for the self entitled, spoiled players who cannot follow instructions.
Since there are several STF's that I have not played since they split them into Normal\Advanced\Elite levels, is why I said gave the above generalizations and why I said I would get specifics for you once I have the time in game to actually record that info.
Being that I usually don't get a lot of time for gaming, I don't tend to right down the stuff I see in game. Families can be so time consuming
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
Heh, I once joked with some folks about how it might be cool to have a large screen TV or a projector...buy some of these http://xkeys.com/xkeys.php for different folks to use...and making it sort of a team effort to play; where each person was responsible for their little part of it to turn it into a group activity. Then I remembered I wasn't independently wealthy, heh.
edit: And lol, even if I was...could imagine all the arguments over who gets to do what...all the fighting over somebody doing something wrong. Such a hassle, lol.
So anyone who leaves the game is self-entitled? That's what your first sentance reads as.
Your "simplification" of my definition actually is even close to my definition. You just threw everything I wrote out the window and substituded your own opinion. Sorry but that isn't going to fly with me. Your simplified definition is not even in the same galaxy as to what my definition is. Casual, in the simplest of terms, is someone you is not Hardcore because he is deficient enough in one OR more catagories. Those catagories being Time, Resources, Skill and Desire. It is not simply a mental thing, but a combination of things beyond just the mind.
I am not demanding anything of what you are saying. I am asking that the content be designed in order to help players progress and get better. That the content be designed in such a way to as to actually teach you what you need to know to get better. And that the rewards be designed so that once you have completed one content level consistanly well, that you will have the necessary gear, skill and knowledge to tackle the next level of gear.
STF's are clearly not designed in this manner.
And as a Casual Player, I can concern myself with the rewards. What about being casual means you can't like or want loot? Nothing. Loot is the reward for succeeding at content? If I completed an Advanced queue, shouldn't I get the same loot as a hardcare player gets for completing the same content?
To me, the only real difference will be often the Hardcore guy will be how often he/she will be able to get through the content in the same time as a casual will have.
As for the "propaganda" comment about numbers. What I stated was a fact. The fact is that Cryptic doesn't release that data. I have not stated one way or another if that was good or bad. Only that They don;t release that data to the public. I also stated, based on the fact that we don't have access to such data, that any data that is gathered is never going to provable as being a viable statistical representation of the STO playerbase at large. And because of that, any "evidence" that I would base my conclusion I could not not reasonably beleive be replicatable. Therefor, all such numbers and data is purely based on my experience of the game, and can no way be construed as statistical evidence that what I say is true. And that any conclusions would have to be considered only in the light of that bias. For I have no realistic method of comparing if my data is consistant with the actual statistical sampling of the true database. It is nothing more than a statement of the limititations of mine or any one elses data. Unless they have access to the cryptic database, there is no one that can claim otherwise.
The rest of what you say is basically your own opnion as to why you think this is not a good idea, backed by only your pessimistic viewpoint of other players. And not on my specified definition.
Please don't attempt to rewrite what I say. If you have a point to make, do so in manner that is not condenscending to others. And if you can't elevate yourself to the point of thinking that other players can and do wish to get better at the game and do wish to have better loot, even casuals, then we are at an empasse. For your desire to hold down people for being casuals is what your are presenting to me. And I do not agree with your position, nor will there be a way to reconcile our difference. Because the points are based on a opinion of the general characters of others and thier desire to learn, grow and succeed.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
I can see that as being very interesting. But you would have to have the right group of people to do that. I could see getting ugly at times
But the fun that my group of friends would turn it into would make the arguing worth it. Heck, even the arguments would be fun to watch at times. The logic used to prove points.....:eek:
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
Now I wish I was rich enough that i could afford something like that haha. I could totally get my friends to go for it once or twice as a game night thing.
It'd be like rock band meets sto.
Now, this is one giant lame excuse, if people are to lame to bother with going for an optional in normal, than the same would be expected of them in advanced would it not?
This is their problem and, not something that should be catered to, by changing advanced to follow in the same footsteps.
If they know what the optional is in normal and, decide to skip it, than they should have the common sense, to read what the objective is and, what is optional in advanced as well.
No excuses!
Discussing at the end, isn't really needed if they all completed it, because they got it done and, if they skip the optional as you say, than they have no real intent to stick around seeing how they are as you say, after the most efficient means of accomplishment.
Since they would most likely move on to another!
Most people don't care, as you see about how it gets done, just so long as it gets done.
So, its no wonder most people leave when it is finished.
That's not saying, it's a bad thing to go over a battle strategy at the beginning/end but, in a PUG 99% of the time, you may never see this person again during another PUG queue.
Hence another reason, people don't bother to formulate a plan, it's just know wth to do and, get the job done asap.
The strategy between normal and advanced is 99.9% exactly the same, it's just many people don't even fathom but maybe 0% - 45%, of ANY proven strategy that always works.
Don't know the objectives, don't know where their allies are, don't know where enemies comes from, etc., etc., etc.!
And, this doesn't even touch upon build design, power settings, piloting effectiveness, etc.!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Not Lame, because the optionals being optionals are not needed to complete the content. And the rewards garnered from completeling the optionals don't warrent the effort necessary to complete them. So not lame, just efficient.
And from the times I have been in normal, in space, it has been my experience that people don't even try to complete the optionals. For they feel no need to do them. Now if the there was worthy reward to complete the optionals, or better yetthey part of the mission to be done (without timers and failures) then this would really up the factor were they have to learn the tactics to do that part of the content. But as in any MMO that I have played, if the reward is not there to complete the content, and it doesn't provide a barrier to completing the content, then most people will bypass the content and do only the most efficient work to reward requirements as needed.
And if you don't need to know the content to complete the content, then on the next layer of content were you require it is where you will figure out how to do it. Because it's become necessary.
As for builds and such, Solo content should be training people how to put builds together. And Solo content should be teaching people ability rotations. But it doesn't. Nor does STF's or any other content in the game. There is nothing in STO itself that really teache you about the various abilities , skills and traits and why you would put certain combinations together.
And that is Cryptic's false, for it shouldn't be left to the playerbase to teach people who to play the game.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
If you make stuff optional in advance that were mandatory, it will have the same scenario as normal. People refusing to learn. What do you think players will change their attitudes suddenly in advance? They wont. If you make mandatories and optionals in normal/advance the same, no one will do the optionals except non PuGs because it is a waste of time. Why would you prolong people leeching from you when you know you are the one carrying them? Those players who want to learn will learn in the current mechanics. Those who refuse to learn will never learn even if you change the mechanics, unless the change themselves.
So we are going back to spoiled and self entitlement. I am sorry but that is the only way to define these players who refuse to improve self, refuse to stay at normal/solo missions and avoid advance, refuse to improve teammates by going to find competent communities but demands to finish advance difficulty.
Devs already admitted they dont know how players do stuff like the DPS wizards. Because the players play, the devs develop. If you want to learn more advance stuff, you learn from those who do it everyday or frequently.
Its the players option not to improve. Not everything can be spoonfed nor wants to be spoonfed.
So, it boils down to shear laziness!
I guess those who cannot complete an advanced, just seemingly figure it isn't efficient enough to bother with the mandatory right?
Because that is what causes a fail, that and someone trolling a fail!
This is what I am getting, from your excuse after excuse of posts.
If they are too lazy to bother with a normal optional, which teaches the exact strategy needed for advanced, than they obviously are too lazy to bother with learning the objectives in general and, therefore incur failures upon everyone.
Either they learn and, put forth the effort to prevent a failure or, get used to failing and suffer the small rewards, that come with that laziness and failure to learn, simple!
That, or find another game or, do something else in this game, besides whine over their own cause to mission failures!!!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Not looking to make mandatory stuff optional. Just looking to take timers off of mandatory stuff so that people will have a reason to talk and figure it out. Make them do the content, just don't put the added preasure of beating a clock. Difficulty can be maintained without the timers.
If you change the mechanics to support teamwork and communication then you will get it. I am saying that there is nothing in the Normals or Advance modes that supports or incentivises teamwork or communication. Timers are detrimental to planing and teamwork. Especially in PUG's.
You return to the "Spoiled and Self Entitled" mode only because you don't see that you can make things mandatory without Timers? DO you see that it is possibly to make things to be done without timers? Do you see how timers are detrimental to teamwork and communication in PUG's?
Not everything needs to be spoonfed to the players, just all of the basics need to be gtaught. But as it stands now, nothing in the game teaches you what the skills do. Or how the gear, skills, traits and specializations work in unison. None of the base information that is need to understand why you need a build a certain way is laid out in the game. The game needs to teach those basics, not the playerbase.
And if the Devs can't figure out how the DPS Wizards do stuff, then they need to start talking to those guys and find out how they are doing this.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
No. You are chopping up things in a angry manner without looking at the whole statement. Doing something eficiently is not lazy, but making the most of your time. People don't do the optionals in Normals because the effort reward ratio is not worth the time investment. And since the content can be completed with out it, the efficiently get through the content to get on to the next thing. This does not prepare them for Advance, and there is nothing in Normals forcing them to have to prepare for Advance.
In Advance, you notice that your one time optionals are now mandatory and on a timer. You don't stop to talk because you feel pressured by the limited time to go do it. But not ever having to do it before, you go do it blindly. And even if you do have plan to get the optional done, maybe someone else has a different plan on how to get it done? It could even be a situation where there are 5 different plans in motion, all of witch will fail if not everyone is on board to to the same thing. And in this enviroment of "no time for talking act before time runs out" how do you learn how to complete the content.
My specific forays into this has garnered me the plan of watching all of my team mates, tattempt communications, but usually I just see what the strongest DPS person is doing and then go support them in thier efforts. Usually the strongest DPS player has had the most experience in the content from pre-made efforts or numerous runs of PUG's. Regardless, this plan, while increasing the likelyhood of success, does nothing to actually teach me what I should be doing towards completing the content. Mainly because I don't understand the plan, and I don't understand the reasining for some of the choices of action. But it is currently the most efficent means to my ends of successful mission run.
Before Delta Rising, I would pop into an STF, and people would talk, and say what thje plan is. They would call out what order target are to be done. Or specifically say what order things are to be accomplished. And this was great, for it was a plan, it allowed me the ability to ask why things are being done in a certain way, and to comprehend the reasons things are being done in certain manner. Since timers that are not activated by actions have been implemented, my experience has taken a 180. No talking, no planing. Just Gun and Run and not a care in the world if people know what is to be done, because there is no time to waste on that. Either this gets done in time, or you drop out and leave upon failure.
So instead of playing this pissing contest of name calling, and saying that others are lazy and creating excuses. Instead you should be looking at what is really being said, which are not excuses, and maybe looking at the situation for what it it truly is, a problem to be solved. And solving that problem will make the game better for everyone who wants to run the content with a real chance at success.
Your last two lines are antoginistic and not condusive to intelligent discussion ober the issue. They look to be placed there purely to cause anger and illicet an angry response. Why are you so incline to do this when there is no need for it?
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
But when certain ways to get progression awards was tied to them was the problem with them I had.
Instead of dropping the optional requirements they should have changed how to get those objective items to say a daily (or even weekly in the case of tech) for normal mode, and just increased amounts for Advanced and Elite.
Advanced and Elite should be for those who want a challenge, not a barrier to progression and rewards.
Agreed.
I think that is why there is so much hullaballu over Advance now. Because people who are woefully underprepared, under skilled and/or undergeared are heading into Advanced to get the progression mats needed to upgrade.
I know that I am dreaming when I say I would really like to see more than one avenue for progression and gearing in STO.
But there is only one in the game, STF's. Because all the mats to upgrade gear is there in Advanced and Elite content only.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)