They get better because people take time to talk and strategize before starting each section of the content.
Not everybody speaks English - not everybody that does speak English speaks enough to do that.
It's likely one of the additional reasons why the objectives in much of the content is laid out the way it is...why most of the objectives are so simple...and why they carry over the way they do in moving from Normal to Advanced to Elite.
You could end up in a pug with five people where they literally have no way to communicate...cause they all speak different languages.
So the objectives are set that no communication is needed...and...that's pretty much what we have.
Not everybody speaks English - not everybody that does speak English speaks enough to do that.
It's likely one of the additional reasons why the objectives in much of the content is laid out the way it is...why most of the objectives are so simple...and why they carry over the way they do in moving from Normal to Advanced to Elite.
You could end up in a pug with five people where they literally have no way to communicate...cause they all speak different languages.
So the objectives are set that no communication is needed...and...that's pretty much what we have.
Yeah, if you want to work on the limited communication problem, putting in timers is not going to help that. Putting in fails will not help either. No failure conditions will allow people to work out some level of communication, maybe with emotes or other clever actions like that, to get people to concentrate and focus on certain portions of the content.
Again, the timers will eliminate PUG's from working out ways to overcome those barriers and just have the group going in willy nilly and failing. And since the content has cooldowns, this will more likely frustrate people and cause ire and rage, than not.
Yeah, if you want to work on the limited communication problem, putting in timers is not going to help that. Putting in fails will not help either. No failure conditions will allow people to work out some level of communication, maybe with emotes or other clever actions like that, to get people to concentrate and focus on certain portions of the content.
Again, the timers will eliminate PUG's from working out ways to overcome those barriers and just have the group going in willy nilly and failing. And since the content has cooldowns, this will more likely frustrate people and cause ire and rage, than not.
But again...the timers are on the same objectives as exist in Normal. You don't work it out in Advanced...you do it in Normal.
It's along the lines of what one might see in another MMO...where a normal dungeon is run, it's learned, and then a more advanced version of that dungeon is run. What's different? Objectives are the same...it's just more difficult.
But again...the timers are on the same objectives as exist in Normal. You don't work it out in Advanced...you do it in Normal.
It's along the lines of what one might see in another MMO...where a normal dungeon is run, it's learned, and then a more advanced version of that dungeon is run. What's different? Objectives are the same...it's just more difficult.
But, because of the timers, no one is stopping to work it out. And since things are easier to kill in normal, going willy nilly with no plan is not an hinderence and there is no real way to fail. Which supports my point. Timers are hindering people to work together. And in Advanced, where working together becomes important, the timers are even greater of a hinderence to succeeding in a PUG.
But, because of the timers, no one is stopping to work it out. And since things are easier to kill in normal, going willy nilly with no plan is not an hinderence and there is no real way to fail. Which supports my point. Timers are hindering people to work together. And in Advanced, where working together becomes important, the timers are even greater of a hinderence to succeeding in a PUG.
In a Pug, you dont rely on the team. You rely on yourself.
Thats why when people in the forums say that they only way the win in ISA is if someone brings the GW or any CC instead of bringing it themselves, I simply laugh at it.
If you have a hard time doing in PuG, get out of the PuG or insist on staying on the PuG advance improve yourself to the point you can carry the whole advance mission.
PuG advance isnt a reliable way of knowing if the advance difficulty is really difficult or not because it is a team game.
Tom: Hey, I'm going to hit up an Advanced queue!
Jerry: You ran the Normal first?
Tom: Yep, it was easy peasy!
Jerry: You got all the Optionals?
Tom: Er, I dunno.
Jerry: Well, you guys did all the Objectives, right?
Tom: Um, I dunno.
Jerry: So how long did it take?
Tom: Uh, I dunno.
Jerry: But you said it was easy? What did you do?
Tom: Dunno, but we got a reward at the end.
Jerry: Is your build ready for more difficult mobs?
Tom: Hrmmm, dunno.
* * * * *
Isn't an issue of there being timers in Advanced or Elite.
But again...the timers are on the same objectives as exist in Normal. You don't work it out in Advanced...you do it in Normal.
It's along the lines of what one might see in another MMO...where a normal dungeon is run, it's learned, and then a more advanced version of that dungeon is run. What's different? Objectives are the same...it's just more difficult.
The difference is if you fail an objective in a dungeon run (in every game I have played, and that's allot of them) you are given the chance to try it again, and again, until you learn and get it right or give up. I have never seen a game where you are booted, disbanded and locked out for 1 mistake.
The problem with STO isn't the difficulty, but rather the punishment for failure. They should really add big red flashing text that says "YOU FAIL, NOW GO SIT IN THE CORNER FOR 30 MINUTES AND THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU HAVE DONE!!!".
The difference is if you fail an objective in a dungeon run (in every game I have played, and that's allot of them) you are given the chance to try it again, and again, until you learn and get it right or give up. I have never seen a game where you are booted, disbanded and locked out for 1 mistake.
The problem with STO isn't the difficulty, but rather the punishment for failure. They should really add big red flashing text that says "YOU FAIL, NOW GO SIT IN THE CORNER FOR 30 MINUTES AND THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU HAVE DONE!!!".
you want to play again with the same team that failed with you when you know you failed with that team?
The lock out time is not for you. It is for players or teams who can abuse constant repeats who can do missions for 1-2 mins.
The difference is if you fail an objective in a dungeon run (in every game I have played, and that's allot of them) you are given the chance to try it again, and again, until you learn and get it right or give up. I have never seen a game where you are booted, disbanded and locked out for 1 mistake.
The problem with STO isn't the difficulty, but rather the punishment for failure. They should really add big red flashing text that says "YOU FAIL, NOW GO SIT IN THE CORNER FOR 30 MINUTES AND THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU HAVE DONE!!!".
Couple of things here:
1) About how long do those dungeon runs take in other games compared to the instances in this game?
2) Maybe if people actually spent those thirty minutes thinking about it instead of whining on the forums about it just so they could go back and TRIBBLE it up again.
1) About how long do those dungeon runs take in other games compared to the instances in this game?
2) Maybe if people actually spent those thirty minutes thinking about it instead of whining on the forums about it just so they could go back and TRIBBLE it up again.
1) Varies greatly in both actually.
2) People log in to play, even if that playing is failing at least they are doing something. No one wants to play a game that puts you on the bench.
2) People log in to play, even if that playing is failing at least they are doing something. No one wants to play a game that puts you on the bench.
1) Can they be anywhere near as short as they are here for even an average group?
2) Failing a queue doesn't prevent somebody from playing...it just prevents them from playing that particular queue again. The time they'd have to wait to play it again, is the same whether it was successful or failed.
That thread was started March 22nd, 2012. Delta Rising with the Mandatory Objectives arrived October 14th, 2014.
There were 3246 posts in that thread before Delta Rising. 3246 posts without Mandatory Objectives...just complaints about runs with Optional Objectives.
Are some of the Mandatory Objectives subject to trolling? No doubt, imho. Will making them Optional instead of Mandatory fix that? No...obviously it won't.
Instead of turning the queues back into hostage situations subject to a myriad of issues demonstrated by that thread...Cryptic could take a look at making the Objectives less subject to trolling, no?
Hmm....
In the other MMO's that I play, PUGS get better as the particular content ages. They get better because people take time to talk and strategize before starting each section of the content. They also get better, because from the runs they get the better gear that helps complete the current content better. This is in MMO's that have progression for their formats for queued content.
Have timers limits or eliminates that strategizing time in PUGS. Pre-mades have all the time in the world to strategze before they queue the content. Fails that end the content does not promote team coopoeration and communication. Having no Timers and no fails that end content has always lent to more people taking thier time to talk, make plans and go at the content in a methodical manner that allows for everyone to succeed. And the get the loot. Other MMO's use this model effectively and still create content that is hard, and thought provoking. This is where I want to see STF's to go. To methods and process that promote team effort, cooperation and communication with out feeling like it will limit the final payout on loot. This is all I want.
Yeah, if you want to work on the limited communication problem, putting in timers is not going to help that. Putting in fails will not help either. No failure conditions will allow people to work out some level of communication, maybe with emotes or other clever actions like that, to get people to concentrate and focus on certain portions of the content.
Again, the timers will eliminate PUG's from working out ways to overcome those barriers and just have the group going in willy nilly and failing. And since the content has cooldowns, this will more likely frustrate people and cause ire and rage, than not.
Timers encourage teamwork and, cooperation + coordination, if people cannot accomplish the single simple mandatory objective under these circumstances, than they need not be running advanced missions, plain and simple, either learn elsewhere or, get your act together and do what is expected of you in an advanced mission!
People not fully knowing wth they are doing, is who is punishing others, including themselves.
1) About how long do those dungeon runs take in other games compared to the instances in this game?
2) Maybe if people actually spent those thirty minutes thinking about it instead of whining on the forums about it just so they could go back and TRIBBLE it up again.
Why the Hell would we want to do that? L E E R O Y J E N K I N S..
But how little DPS can you and your team do and still successfully complete an STF? How about ISA?
I've done ISA in a pug group with a team average of 6.29k DPS. Anything above that is clearly enough DPS.
That's not failing with the Mandatory Objective, right? But that's not with getting the 15 minute Optional Objective, eh? Cause that's ~31.45k team DPS...don't we need to get into the 35k area to hit the Optional as well?
6.29k DPS was a successful on all objectives completion of ISA, including making the 15 minute time. People sometimes forget that you need LESS DPS when multiple players attack the same target simultaneously on the same shield facings.
If you have a hard time doing in PuG, get out of the PuG or insist on staying on the PuG advance improve yourself to the point you can carry the whole advance mission.
Which is one of those things, where if there was a gate of some sort; it wouldn't be so problematic.
Outside of the napping at the spawn and chasing butterflies that took place, this was the DPS some folks did in an ISA yesterday...
Player A) 8,938 / 20.5% / 21.9%
Player Me) 7,619 / 25.6% / 44.0%
Player C) 5,311 / 23.4% / 4.2%
Player D) 3,457 / 19.1% / 14.7%
Player E) 1,455 / 11.1% / 14.9%
Failed) 3:58 minutes
Team DPS) 22,000
This was the previous run on my other character almost two weeks before...
Player Me) 13,324 / 45.0% / 60.7%
Player 9,837 / 5.6% / 3.2%
Player C) 6,902 / 42.0% / 32.6%
Player D) 3,111 / 4.8% / 2.0%
Player E) 2,146 / 2.4% / 1.3%
Completed) 17:12 minutes (failed Optional)
Team DPS) 35,320
Another one with that toon from the day before that...
Player Me) 20,236 / 76.8% / 91.8%
Player 12,699 / 6.5% / 3.4%
Player C) 9,967 / 8.0% / 2.0%
Player D) 6,574 / 2.7% / 0.3%
Player E) 5,017 / 5.8% / 2.3%
Completed) 11:22 minutes
Team DPS) 54,493
Hrmm, let me go back and add some numbers to those things above...case some folks out there think this is about "DPSy" stuff. The second number will be % Attacks In (aggro/Tank) and the third number will be % Heal Out (Healer). I'll even add it to the one done in the B'rel with Meena.
So it gets into what paxdawn's saying there...personally, I'd really dig if it generally weren't the case - that the first run had been folks in the 6-9k range and had gone at it like that. But it gets into a case of bringing a buffer, bringing 2-3x or more the DPS the content requires because there are going to be folks showing up below what the content requires.
Prior to Delta Rising, I was an advocate of the 4-9k range while folks were off doing much more than that - was what, near 90k for the record for ISE prior to DR? Not as many folks at the high end as there are now, but there were all sorts of folks doing 20-30k+ DPS. After the changes at the end of the month of the DR launch, I ended up arguing with folks that ISA only required ~1-2k DPS more than ISE...that 5/6-9k range. But that's pretty much what it is...it's not that high compared to the potential, where there are a Hell of a lot more folks doing 30-50k+ and it's up to 120k for the record.
But there is no gating...so like paxdawn said there...if one is hoping to have a successful run, one needs to do far more than they should need to do. That's not because of content difficulty - it's because of the additional difficulty introduced by players.
Keep in mind, each queue's going to have its own content requirements. ISA/ISE just tends to get brought up because it's one of the easiest queues and basically functions as a form of target dummy...giving folks a rudimentary idea of how they might perform in other queues, from their DPS, their ability to work with others, and get Objectives done.
Most of the negative feedback on ANRA has more to do with the randomness of the ships spawns, which can keep you from completing the optionals, than from people playing it. Any more, when people run it, they look at the initial spawns, and those don't equal 10, they don't even try to complete the optionals. The RNG factor really kills the chance to complete the optionals than the players.
Thing is...that was a leading issue with how ANRA was before. The difficulty of the queue was very random because of the randomness of the spawns. It could prevent a team from completing the Mandatory Objective. Group A could have an easy selection of spawns while Group B could have a heinous selection of spawns...given that it's only Advanced.
It's a further example of why the ANRA changes and the overall idea of changing Advanced in the way they're looking at doing them isn't a fix - doesn't address the problems for Advanced.
Timers encourage teamwork and, cooperation + coordination, if people cannot accomplish the single simple mandatory objective under these circumstances, than they need not be running advanced missions, plain and simple, either learn elsewhere or, get your act together and do what is expected of you in an advanced mission!
People not fully knowing wth they are doing, is who is punishing others, including themselves.
The only people worse than this, is trolls!
No Timers encourage gettings things done NOW. Not taking your time to get done RIGHT. Getting things done now makes people start doing things before anybody gets to talking. And also means that people will be less likely to stop and talk becuse they feel that the time pressure doesn't allow for it. Or at least that what's my apparent experience in all missions with timers have been.
STF's without timers have always allowed people to talk about what should be done before the objective is started on. In Advanced that is what I encounter everytime. In those STF's where communications does occur, success is the normal outcome, with objectives met. In those that have timers, failure is normal. In my experience so far. And this is not a good thing.
Don't want to use up another reply just in case, so I'll reply to the following in this post...
* * * * *
1) Can they be anywhere near as short as they are here for even an average group?
2) Failing a queue doesn't prevent somebody from playing...it just prevents them from playing that particular queue again. The time they'd have to wait to play it again, is the same whether it was successful or failed.
That thread was started March 22nd, 2012. Delta Rising with the Mandatory Objectives arrived October 14th, 2014.
There were 3246 posts in that thread before Delta Rising. 3246 posts without Mandatory Objectives...just complaints about runs with Optional Objectives.
Are some of the Mandatory Objectives subject to trolling? No doubt, imho. Will making them Optional instead of Mandatory fix that? No...obviously it won't.
Instead of turning the queues back into hostage situations subject to a myriad of issues demonstrated by that thread...Cryptic could take a look at making the Objectives less subject to trolling, no?
Even with all of those complaints, Pre DR, I normally entered an STF and we worked out what the plan was and who was going to do what. That was typical and more often than not, we succeeded. Since DR introduced timers and failures, I have rarely seen anybody take the time to talk about what the plan is and who was going to do what. And normally failure occured.
Since they changed ANRA, I have seen more people talk about if there is enough points to succeed. But rarely any planing. and usually it's just during the countdown to begin the mission. Not once the mission starts. Usually it's just agreed upon if that at least on 5pt ship is showing at the start of the clock to try for the optional, others just ignore optional and play on. The randomness before just determined how many points you would get, but now, it is worse in that it controls not only the end points but also if you are even lallowed to complete the optionals. It's completely out of your hands. They need to look at the spawning rates for each item and fix that there is always a chance to complete the optionals when they are active. and possible shorten those respawn delays.
And failing a queue could prevent someone from playing the game they wanted to play. If I am after a specific mat, and every single one of those queues that get that mat fail, then the part of the game that I want to do blocked from me playing it. And then I have the choice of hanging around doing nothing, or log off and come back some other day.
My time is precious and limited. And I don't need a MMO to tell me that I can't play the game in the manner that I find as fun. Usually that means people move on to find games that let them have fun.
No Timers encourage gettings things done NOW. Not taking your time to get done RIGHT. Getting things done now makes people start doing things before anybody gets to talking. And also means that people will be less likely to stop and talk becuse they feel that the time pressure doesn't allow for it. Or at least that what's my apparent experience in all missions with timers have been.
STF's without timers have always allowed people to talk about what should be done before the objective is started on. In Advanced that is what I encounter everytime. In those STF's where communications does occur, success is the normal outcome, with objectives met. In those that have timers, failure is normal. In my experience so far. And this is not a good thing.
There is as much communication now as there was before...because there simply isn't much of a need for any communication just to do them...people that were hitting up Elite had either learned what to do in Normal or they didn't...just like it is with Advanced and Normal now.
Communication is going to come into play for the higher DPS folks - where that coordination is required to reach the numbers they do. For neither the old Elite nor current Advanced is that much of a concern...might have somebody saying I'm going top, who's going left and right?...but that's the extent of it. Cause it's an Advanced queue...one is expected to have Advanced knowledge of the queue, either Advanced piloting or an Advanced build...or possibly both. Advanced is not remedial education cause somebody didn't pay attention in Normal...
And failing a queue could prevent someone from playing the game they wanted to play. If I am after a specific mat, and every single one of those queues that get that mat fail, then the part of the game that I want to do blocked from me playing it. And then I have the choice of hanging around doing nothing, or log off and come back some other day.
My time is precious and limited. And I don't need a MMO to tell me that I can't play the game in the manner that I find as fun. Usually that means people move on to find games that let them have fun.
Nah, I'll just post it here instead...
Would you be fine with the R&D mats being tied to the Optionals then?
Complete some Optionals in Advanced...get a Normal R&D pack (no VR mat).
Complete all Optionals in Advanced...get the Advanced R&D pack (VR mat).
There is as much communication now as there was before...because there simply isn't much of a need for any communication just to do them...people that were hitting up Elite had either learned what to do in Normal or they didn't...just like it is with Advanced and Normal now.
Communication is going to come into play for the higher DPS folks - where that coordination is required to reach the numbers they do. For neither the old Elite nor current Advanced is that much of a concern...might have somebody saying I'm going top, who's going left and right?...but that's the extent of it. Cause it's an Advanced queue...one is expected to have Advanced knowledge of the queue, either Advanced piloting or an Advanced build...or possibly both. Advanced is not remedial education cause somebody didn't pay attention in Normal...
Nah, I'll just post it here instead...
Would you be fine with the R&D mats being tied to the Optionals then?
Complete some Optionals in Advanced...get a Normal R&D pack (no VR mat).
Complete all Optionals in Advanced...get the Advanced R&D pack (VR mat).
Not been my experience. Since DR, I don't see people talking anymore. There is no planing. no working out who is doing what. It's just Gun and Run all the time. Before DR, I only saw the Gun And Run people when they were trolling the STF. Causing a failure. Now it seems to be the only tactic used. Nothing else matters.
As for the mats, as long as those optionals are not timers, I am fine with it. If there is any kind of timer on it, then I would not like it. Timers have killed my enjoyment of the STF's. And have killed the likely hood that any optional will be completed in a PUG. Eliminate Timers and tie the VR Mats to the optionals works fine for me. For I am more likely to get people to get those done and work together to get it done than I ever will get a PUG to work together on a timetable.
As for the mats, as long as those optionals are not timers, I am fine with it. If there is any kind of timer on it, then I would not like it. Timers have killed my enjoyment of the STF's. And have killed the likely hood that any optional will be completed in a PUG. Eliminate Timers and tie the VR Mats to the optionals works fine for me. For I am more likely to get people to get those done and work together to get it done than I ever will get a PUG to work together on a timetable.
Timers aren't new. That an Optional became Mandatory was what changed.
If you had to do X before Y time elapsed, you still have to do X before Y elapsed...that didn't change with Delta Rising.
All that changed were certain Objectives which were Optional became Mandatory.
The various triggers - somebody does A and B happens - so you have to react to B within a given period of time? That's not new either.
How could something that has always existed been something new that ruined things for you?
It would go back to you didn't care about any of the Optional Objectives...you just wanted the VR R&D mats whenever the queue was eventually completed. That's why I asked about them being tied to the Optional Objectives...cause that's how you were starting to come across.
Don't worry virusdancer they aren't taking your failqueues away. They just added 3 new ones! Your 853rd repetition of the same bullying argument finally sealed it. The 854th will just be gravy.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Don't worry virusdancer they aren't taking your failqueues away. They just added 3 new ones! Your 853rd repetition of the same bullying argument finally sealed it. The 854th will just be gravy.
Tribble is being brought down for maintenance to update it to build ST.50.20150425a.4.
Content:
Gateway to Grethor:
Advanced now has a performance failure condition.
Advanced now fails if the team does not save a single transport in phase 2.
Numbers have been adjusted to provide the same as, or rewards greater than previous.
The net total of marks should be the same as previous, or slightly higher.
Updated the Contact to give version specific instructions on the transport phase.
Normal has no added information.
Advanced mentions player must save one to pass.
Elite mentions player must save the required number to pass.
Added Skillpoints to the rewards for optional objectives.
Brotherhood of the Sword:
Mark rewards have been scaled down as they were initially set too high.
Advanced no longer has required objectives.
Instead, all potential objectives will be present during Advanced and each is able to be completed for rewards.
Herald Sphere:
Resolved an issue where optional objectives were not being included in the reward in Advanced mode.
The Academy Traffic Controller now correctly refers to the new Sector Space layout.
Una System Patrol: Resolved an issue where when selecting "Not Now" when offered the contact to depart system would remove this option to leave the map.
The contact pop-ups will also no longer disable active cloak
Tazi System Patrol: Resolved an issue where this patrol would display a "Warp to Sector" button at all times, and after completion of patrol would display two buttons for leaving the map.
There is only one "Depart System" button, and it only appears after the patrol is completed.
The contact pop-ups will also no longer disable active cloak.
Culver System Patrol: Enemies that spawn on the ground map now match player level.
The Auto-navigate option works for the episode Blood of Ancients.
shelly, you can go on making up stuff all you want about anything I've said...but what I've said is there...so you'll just keep looking like smelly.
Timers aren't new. That an Optional became Mandatory was what changed.
If you had to do X before Y time elapsed, you still have to do X before Y elapsed...that didn't change with Delta Rising.
All that changed were certain Objectives which were Optional became Mandatory.
The various triggers - somebody does A and B happens - so you have to react to B within a given period of time? That's not new either.
How could something that has always existed been something new that ruined things for you?
It would go back to you didn't care about any of the Optional Objectives...you just wanted the VR R&D mats whenever the queue was eventually completed. That's why I asked about them being tied to the Optional Objectives...cause that's how you were starting to come across.
Well, they are new to me. The content I played before DR did not have timers. After DR, timers started appearing in content I was playing.
The A triggers B is not so much a timer to me. That is a controlable event. WHich means that people can plan when A is triggered to get B. SO I have never been oppossed to those things. Even if it's trollable by people.
Sorry if I seemed like I didn't want optionals. I am fine with optionals. As long as those optionals are controlled by timer. And by timer I mean that the Clocks starts ticking down, regardless of any actions taken. And this timers starts with out giving the team any time to prep and plan before it starts.
holy potential changes batman. I prepare to stand corrected. You may hold out greater hope for Herald Sphere as the fail of the three. I've yet to fail the Gateway one as it is and Brotherhood is about 50/50 so far. I'd have been happy with just making the orion optional or at least fixed with good health. But I humbly retract my statement and wait for next Thursday to see.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Don't worry virusdancer they aren't taking your failqueues away. They just added 3 new ones! Your 853rd repetition of the same bullying argument finally sealed it. The 854th will just be gravy.
Don't be mean.
Virusdancer has an opinion. I have an opinion. We are discussing it politely.
I hope he has seen some of points and where I am at odds with the current system. Some of what he has said has altered some of my thinking about the current content setup.
Don't be mean.
Virusdancer has an opinion. I have an opinion. We are discussing it politely.
I hope he has seen some of points and where I am at odds with the current system. Some of what he has said has altered some of my thinking about the current content setup.
He and I don't like each other. It's okay. Well, the mods don't think it's okay. But it's okay.
There are folks that show the least bit of interest in trying, and I dig those folks - try to get them the help they need (either if I can or pointing them to folks that can, just cause I spend too much time on the forums and know a wee bit about this and that doesn't make me a guru/savior...so a bunch of stuff will be dropping a line to somebody else asking them to help or directing the person looking for help toward them).
There are folks that show zero interest in trying, and I get in trouble with the mods because of them.
For some odd reason, sheldon likes to defend the latter group.
Well, they are new to me. The content I played before DR did not have timers. After DR, timers started appearing in content I was playing.
The A triggers B is not so much a timer to me. That is a controlable event. WHich means that people can plan when A is triggered to get B. SO I have never been oppossed to those things. Even if it's trollable by people.
Sorry if I seemed like I didn't want optionals. I am fine with optionals. As long as those optionals are controlled by timer. And by timer I mean that the Clocks starts ticking down, regardless of any actions taken. And this timers starts with out giving the team any time to prep and plan before it starts.
I guess I'm just not that familiar with actual timers - outside of the timers that existed and those events that work based off of doing something and then having to be quick about doing something else (whether it's preventing Nanites getting to the Trans, preventing Assimilateds getting to Kang, preventing Probes getting to the gate, etc, etc, etc).
I also don't run any Ground queues, so I'd be completely clueless to what's going on there.
In thinking about it though, CCA actually has a timer there, yeah? Though, to be honest, I couldn't tell you if it was there previously or not...it was always such an easy queue that it was wham, bam, done. I'm thinking that it wasn't there, though...cause when DR first dropped, CCA was a fungasm of difficulty - and - there's no way it could have been in a state with any sort of failed timer at that point. Would need to hunt that down...
...will have to look more into the timers that are out there - actual clocks, not the do X before Y happens things...cause as you said, there are ways to deal with the do X before Y things.
But would that get into a case of providing longer timers? Those being adjusted? Hrmm, meh, I'm running low on caffeine at the moment - but I've got a faint memory of having a similar discussion previously. The image of various racing games where you can do things to extend the clock is coming to mind...can't remember if I posted that before. Let me search.
Heh, yeah, from a previous discussion with Sheldon...
virusdancer - I'm guessing you're opposed to these potential changes?
To these changes? Yes, I am.
I wanted better education for players going into Normal, going into Advanced, and going into Elite. I wanted Cryptic to provide at least some of the basics so folks that might shy away from forums, guides, videos, and all the rest could at least get some basic feedback in the game on what's going on - what they may or may not be ready to tackle.
I wanted a better variety of ways to tackle things, so folks didn't feel that DPS was the only solution. A fail timer is a DPS solution...I'm not a fan of that. Hell, I'm not a fan of straight timers at all. Even as an Optional, they're going to make it about DPS, yeah?
Imagine ISA for a moment, eh?
Transformer <
> Gateway
Those Nanites come through the Gateway and they're headed for the Transformer. If nothing is done to try to slow them down, that's basically a timer, right?
They could have had...after you drop a Generator...you have X time to get the Transformer down. But they didn't do that, right? They provided folks options. You can frag the Transformer, you can hit them with GW, you can grab them with R-TBR drag them away, drop EWP, etc, etc, etc - all sorts of things to slow them down. Hell, depending on the ship you can just park in front of the first one and they'll get stuck there cause they can't figure out how to go around. Timer is still ticking, but you've bought the group more time, right?
I think back to playing Sonic (first game that came to mind, but I guess a bunch of racing type games have something like that too) - you've got a timer, but you can get more time.
So something like ANRA...freed that ship? How about repairing it to add some extra time? Other folks head off to free the next one, somebody bought the group time by repairing.
Tada, it's not all just about DPS.
This change? It's still just about DPS.
Still about DPS, nerfed rewards, longer runs...and...yeah, no - I don't see this actually making things better. It's a cheap band-aid. Hell, it's a cheap band-aid that gets stuck on your fingers as you're trying to put it on. And even worse, it's raining.
There are all sorts of things they could do to help out newer players, extremely casual players, and so forth...
What's this doing? Advanced NPCs w/ Normal Rewards. How is that supposed to be a good thing?
Since we are talking about advance and not Normal, removing fail wont help people learn. Because it is advance STF where people are suppose to be past learning the STF.
When a player chooses to go to an advance STF regardless if it is private or PuG, they are expected to know what they are doing, expected to have reading comprehension, expect they are in a team mission.
The playerbase is diverse. Those who want to nerf the advance missions are just part of the playerbase. And those who want to nerf advance missions are part of a very specific and unique playerbase who happens to whine a lot in the forums.
The only reason you and virus are still at this is because both of you are harcore science ship drivers and the current Fails like infected has is right up your ships strength
That's why both of you whine so much to keep things like they are and bully anyone who says anything differnt
Normals are so easy they teach NOTHING at all to a new player to do a advanced
Reading ? how many seconds do you get to read before the shooting starts 5 seconds...........Plz
crafting mats given in adv and normal.................both are patethic
Has the fails made the STfs more popular ? No
Has the fails made that content more Fun ? No
Has the fails improved the average players game ..No they fail at the first transformer and don't understand why.....then after doing the patethic normal leave the game
expert or veteran players know why this happens...no time to communicate before the first fail occurs unless your in a science ship to hold back the nanites
The best thing cryptic should do is remove these game damaging Fails which were a FAIL in themselves when they were first put into the game
Only a fool would say these Fails are good for the game or a selfish player not looking past their own self interest
Or cryptic not wanting to admit how much these fails have hurt the game
There arnt many veterans left now days , Bur some of us know how it used to be and how it is now
What we got right now is a shadow of what pugs used to be and the biggest reason are these fail condititions
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
The only reason you and virus are still at this is because both of you are harcore science ship drivers and the current Fails like infected has is right up your ships strength
I had to stop right there, cause I was already laughing too much at that point to have gone on...lol.
Willard the Rat@virusdancer, Klingon Sci, flying a Geneva Command Battlecruiser, doing 13-21k DPS.
paxdawn is pushing for folks saying PVE is easy to prove it in HSE.
I'm thinking it would be cool if more folks would hit up HSA.
Lol, yeah, I couldn't read beyond how you started there.
edit: Course, could get into Meena there (had forgotten they were in my signature)...I might actually break 8k with her one of these days. What Sci does she have going on?
He and I don't like each other. It's okay. Well, the mods don't think it's okay. But it's okay.
There are folks that show the least bit of interest in trying, and I dig those folks - try to get them the help they need (either if I can or pointing them to folks that can, just cause I spend too much time on the forums and know a wee bit about this and that doesn't make me a guru/savior...so a bunch of stuff will be dropping a line to somebody else asking them to help or directing the person looking for help toward them).
There are folks that show zero interest in trying, and I get in trouble with the mods because of them.
For some odd reason, sheldon likes to defend the latter group.
I guess I'm just not that familiar with actual timers - outside of the timers that existed and those events that work based off of doing something and then having to be quick about doing something else (whether it's preventing Nanites getting to the Trans, preventing Assimilateds getting to Kang, preventing Probes getting to the gate, etc, etc, etc).
I also don't run any Ground queues, so I'd be completely clueless to what's going on there.
In thinking about it though, CCA actually has a timer there, yeah? Though, to be honest, I couldn't tell you if it was there previously or not...it was always such an easy queue that it was wham, bam, done. I'm thinking that it wasn't there, though...cause when DR first dropped, CCA was a fungasm of difficulty - and - there's no way it could have been in a state with any sort of failed timer at that point. Would need to hunt that down...
...will have to look more into the timers that are out there - actual clocks, not the do X before Y happens things...cause as you said, there are ways to deal with the do X before Y things.
But would that get into a case of providing longer timers? Those being adjusted? Hrmm, meh, I'm running low on caffeine at the moment - but I've got a faint memory of having a similar discussion previously. The image of various racing games where you can do things to extend the clock is coming to mind...can't remember if I posted that before. Let me search.
Heh, yeah, from a previous discussion with Sheldon...
I run space more often than ground. But you got similar issues in both, with added fun of having the enviroment blocking your view or targeting. Your targeting but not the NPC's, lol. Being shot through a wall is so much fun! (yeah)
Adding timers, or ways to elongate the timers, is not the way to go. I still don't think it gives people the ability to plan at the start. No matter what you do with timers, planning at the start is hampered because the clock is ticking. And elongating the timers, unless they are guarenteed things, doesn't help help with that. And if the elongation is gaurenteed, then why have the timer?
No, I think removing the timers, and changing the mission fails to option failed, will help foster teamwork. Because people will definately plan out how to finish the mission. Once they have that down, they will start figuring oiut how to accomplish the optionals. And as long as there is way to plan before starting on the optionals, then people will get better at getting them done. Which is what I see happen in every other MMO I play, for it allows for PUG's to talk and plan and get better through expiramentation. And they don't have cool downs on those queued events in most cases. (There are exceptions)
I run space more often than ground. But you got similar issues in both, with added fun of having the enviroment blocking your view or targeting. Your targeting but not the NPC's, lol. Being shot through a wall is so much fun! (yeah)
Adding timers, or ways to elongate the timers, is not the way to go. I still don't think it gives people the ability to plan at the start. No matter what you do with timers, planning at the start is hampered because the clock is ticking. And elongating the timers, unless they are guarenteed things, doesn't help help with that. And if the elongation is gaurenteed, then why have the timer?
No, I think removing the timers, and changing the mission fails to option failed, will help foster teamwork. Because people will definately plan out how to finish the mission. Once they have that down, they will start figuring oiut how to accomplish the optionals. And as long as there is way to plan before starting on the optionals, then people will get better at getting them done. Which is what I see happen in every other MMO I play, for it allows for PUG's to talk and plan and get better through expiramentation. And they don't have cool downs on those queued events in most cases. (There are exceptions)
The DPS timers are there to encourage / force people to upgrade
cryptic starts most missions especially infected space almost in weapons range so they don't want you to talk or read anything
Fail to optional is the way to go
PTW DPS is so out of control the cool down has to remain in place to keep the wallet warriors from making a joke out of the content
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
My opinion on this issue has actually changed in the last couple weeks. I no longer believe that the dead queues/failqueues have significant bearing on the longevity of the game. This is why I argued so strenuously for months that these fails needed to go. I felt it was driving too many players from the game. I think we are on a set path now. There are also larger concerns for the game.
From my personal perspective there are only a handful of missions that are miserable to pug. Azure was one, Borg disconnected another, and I think Herald Sphere might be a 3rd, though I doubt it will be played enough.
So I am happy now to get to pug anything. There are a good number to enjoy. And I am trying to enjoy while I can. I think we can see that the pug is an endangered breed.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Comments
Not everybody speaks English - not everybody that does speak English speaks enough to do that.
It's likely one of the additional reasons why the objectives in much of the content is laid out the way it is...why most of the objectives are so simple...and why they carry over the way they do in moving from Normal to Advanced to Elite.
You could end up in a pug with five people where they literally have no way to communicate...cause they all speak different languages.
So the objectives are set that no communication is needed...and...that's pretty much what we have.
Yeah, if you want to work on the limited communication problem, putting in timers is not going to help that. Putting in fails will not help either. No failure conditions will allow people to work out some level of communication, maybe with emotes or other clever actions like that, to get people to concentrate and focus on certain portions of the content.
Again, the timers will eliminate PUG's from working out ways to overcome those barriers and just have the group going in willy nilly and failing. And since the content has cooldowns, this will more likely frustrate people and cause ire and rage, than not.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
But again...the timers are on the same objectives as exist in Normal. You don't work it out in Advanced...you do it in Normal.
It's along the lines of what one might see in another MMO...where a normal dungeon is run, it's learned, and then a more advanced version of that dungeon is run. What's different? Objectives are the same...it's just more difficult.
But, because of the timers, no one is stopping to work it out. And since things are easier to kill in normal, going willy nilly with no plan is not an hinderence and there is no real way to fail. Which supports my point. Timers are hindering people to work together. And in Advanced, where working together becomes important, the timers are even greater of a hinderence to succeeding in a PUG.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
In a Pug, you dont rely on the team. You rely on yourself.
Thats why when people in the forums say that they only way the win in ISA is if someone brings the GW or any CC instead of bringing it themselves, I simply laugh at it.
If you have a hard time doing in PuG, get out of the PuG or insist on staying on the PuG advance improve yourself to the point you can carry the whole advance mission.
PuG advance isnt a reliable way of knowing if the advance difficulty is really difficult or not because it is a team game.
Jerry: You ran the Normal first?
Tom: Yep, it was easy peasy!
Jerry: You got all the Optionals?
Tom: Er, I dunno.
Jerry: Well, you guys did all the Objectives, right?
Tom: Um, I dunno.
Jerry: So how long did it take?
Tom: Uh, I dunno.
Jerry: But you said it was easy? What did you do?
Tom: Dunno, but we got a reward at the end.
Jerry: Is your build ready for more difficult mobs?
Tom: Hrmmm, dunno.
* * * * *
Isn't an issue of there being timers in Advanced or Elite.
The difference is if you fail an objective in a dungeon run (in every game I have played, and that's allot of them) you are given the chance to try it again, and again, until you learn and get it right or give up. I have never seen a game where you are booted, disbanded and locked out for 1 mistake.
The problem with STO isn't the difficulty, but rather the punishment for failure. They should really add big red flashing text that says "YOU FAIL, NOW GO SIT IN THE CORNER FOR 30 MINUTES AND THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU HAVE DONE!!!".
you want to play again with the same team that failed with you when you know you failed with that team?
The lock out time is not for you. It is for players or teams who can abuse constant repeats who can do missions for 1-2 mins.
Couple of things here:
1) About how long do those dungeon runs take in other games compared to the instances in this game?
2) Maybe if people actually spent those thirty minutes thinking about it instead of whining on the forums about it just so they could go back and TRIBBLE it up again.
1) Varies greatly in both actually.
2) People log in to play, even if that playing is failing at least they are doing something. No one wants to play a game that puts you on the bench.
* * * * *
Don't want to use up another reply just in case, so I'll reply to the following in this post...
* * * * *
1) Can they be anywhere near as short as they are here for even an average group?
2) Failing a queue doesn't prevent somebody from playing...it just prevents them from playing that particular queue again. The time they'd have to wait to play it again, is the same whether it was successful or failed.
* * * * *
Want to add this as well...
"Post your worst STF experiance"
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=262305
That thread was started March 22nd, 2012. Delta Rising with the Mandatory Objectives arrived October 14th, 2014.
There were 3246 posts in that thread before Delta Rising. 3246 posts without Mandatory Objectives...just complaints about runs with Optional Objectives.
Are some of the Mandatory Objectives subject to trolling? No doubt, imho. Will making them Optional instead of Mandatory fix that? No...obviously it won't.
Instead of turning the queues back into hostage situations subject to a myriad of issues demonstrated by that thread...Cryptic could take a look at making the Objectives less subject to trolling, no?
Timers encourage teamwork and, cooperation + coordination, if people cannot accomplish the single simple mandatory objective under these circumstances, than they need not be running advanced missions, plain and simple, either learn elsewhere or, get your act together and do what is expected of you in an advanced mission!
People not fully knowing wth they are doing, is who is punishing others, including themselves.
The only people worse than this, is trolls!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Why the Hell would we want to do that? L E E R O Y J E N K I N S..
Which is one of those things, where if there was a gate of some sort; it wouldn't be so problematic.
Outside of the napping at the spawn and chasing butterflies that took place, this was the DPS some folks did in an ISA yesterday...
Player A) 8,938 / 20.5% / 21.9%
Player Me) 7,619 / 25.6% / 44.0%
Player C) 5,311 / 23.4% / 4.2%
Player D) 3,457 / 19.1% / 14.7%
Player E) 1,455 / 11.1% / 14.9%
Failed) 3:58 minutes
Team DPS) 22,000
This was the previous run on my other character almost two weeks before...
Player Me) 13,324 / 45.0% / 60.7%
Player
Player C) 6,902 / 42.0% / 32.6%
Player D) 3,111 / 4.8% / 2.0%
Player E) 2,146 / 2.4% / 1.3%
Completed) 17:12 minutes (failed Optional)
Team DPS) 35,320
Another one with that toon from the day before that...
Player Me) 20,236 / 76.8% / 91.8%
Player
Player C) 9,967 / 8.0% / 2.0%
Player D) 6,574 / 2.7% / 0.3%
Player E) 5,017 / 5.8% / 2.3%
Completed) 11:22 minutes
Team DPS) 54,493
Hrmm, let me go back and add some numbers to those things above...case some folks out there think this is about "DPSy" stuff. The second number will be % Attacks In (aggro/Tank) and the third number will be % Heal Out (Healer). I'll even add it to the one done in the B'rel with Meena.
So it gets into what paxdawn's saying there...personally, I'd really dig if it generally weren't the case - that the first run had been folks in the 6-9k range and had gone at it like that. But it gets into a case of bringing a buffer, bringing 2-3x or more the DPS the content requires because there are going to be folks showing up below what the content requires.
Prior to Delta Rising, I was an advocate of the 4-9k range while folks were off doing much more than that - was what, near 90k for the record for ISE prior to DR? Not as many folks at the high end as there are now, but there were all sorts of folks doing 20-30k+ DPS. After the changes at the end of the month of the DR launch, I ended up arguing with folks that ISA only required ~1-2k DPS more than ISE...that 5/6-9k range. But that's pretty much what it is...it's not that high compared to the potential, where there are a Hell of a lot more folks doing 30-50k+ and it's up to 120k for the record.
But there is no gating...so like paxdawn said there...if one is hoping to have a successful run, one needs to do far more than they should need to do. That's not because of content difficulty - it's because of the additional difficulty introduced by players.
Keep in mind, each queue's going to have its own content requirements. ISA/ISE just tends to get brought up because it's one of the easiest queues and basically functions as a form of target dummy...giving folks a rudimentary idea of how they might perform in other queues, from their DPS, their ability to work with others, and get Objectives done.
* * * * *
Thing is...that was a leading issue with how ANRA was before. The difficulty of the queue was very random because of the randomness of the spawns. It could prevent a team from completing the Mandatory Objective. Group A could have an easy selection of spawns while Group B could have a heinous selection of spawns...given that it's only Advanced.
It's a further example of why the ANRA changes and the overall idea of changing Advanced in the way they're looking at doing them isn't a fix - doesn't address the problems for Advanced.
No Timers encourage gettings things done NOW. Not taking your time to get done RIGHT. Getting things done now makes people start doing things before anybody gets to talking. And also means that people will be less likely to stop and talk becuse they feel that the time pressure doesn't allow for it. Or at least that what's my apparent experience in all missions with timers have been.
STF's without timers have always allowed people to talk about what should be done before the objective is started on. In Advanced that is what I encounter everytime. In those STF's where communications does occur, success is the normal outcome, with objectives met. In those that have timers, failure is normal. In my experience so far. And this is not a good thing.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
Even with all of those complaints, Pre DR, I normally entered an STF and we worked out what the plan was and who was going to do what. That was typical and more often than not, we succeeded. Since DR introduced timers and failures, I have rarely seen anybody take the time to talk about what the plan is and who was going to do what. And normally failure occured.
Since they changed ANRA, I have seen more people talk about if there is enough points to succeed. But rarely any planing. and usually it's just during the countdown to begin the mission. Not once the mission starts. Usually it's just agreed upon if that at least on 5pt ship is showing at the start of the clock to try for the optional, others just ignore optional and play on. The randomness before just determined how many points you would get, but now, it is worse in that it controls not only the end points but also if you are even lallowed to complete the optionals. It's completely out of your hands. They need to look at the spawning rates for each item and fix that there is always a chance to complete the optionals when they are active. and possible shorten those respawn delays.
And failing a queue could prevent someone from playing the game they wanted to play. If I am after a specific mat, and every single one of those queues that get that mat fail, then the part of the game that I want to do blocked from me playing it. And then I have the choice of hanging around doing nothing, or log off and come back some other day.
My time is precious and limited. And I don't need a MMO to tell me that I can't play the game in the manner that I find as fun. Usually that means people move on to find games that let them have fun.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
There is as much communication now as there was before...because there simply isn't much of a need for any communication just to do them...people that were hitting up Elite had either learned what to do in Normal or they didn't...just like it is with Advanced and Normal now.
Communication is going to come into play for the higher DPS folks - where that coordination is required to reach the numbers they do. For neither the old Elite nor current Advanced is that much of a concern...might have somebody saying I'm going top, who's going left and right?...but that's the extent of it. Cause it's an Advanced queue...one is expected to have Advanced knowledge of the queue, either Advanced piloting or an Advanced build...or possibly both. Advanced is not remedial education cause somebody didn't pay attention in Normal...
Nah, I'll just post it here instead...
Would you be fine with the R&D mats being tied to the Optionals then?
Complete some Optionals in Advanced...get a Normal R&D pack (no VR mat).
Complete all Optionals in Advanced...get the Advanced R&D pack (VR mat).
Not been my experience. Since DR, I don't see people talking anymore. There is no planing. no working out who is doing what. It's just Gun and Run all the time. Before DR, I only saw the Gun And Run people when they were trolling the STF. Causing a failure. Now it seems to be the only tactic used. Nothing else matters.
As for the mats, as long as those optionals are not timers, I am fine with it. If there is any kind of timer on it, then I would not like it. Timers have killed my enjoyment of the STF's. And have killed the likely hood that any optional will be completed in a PUG. Eliminate Timers and tie the VR Mats to the optionals works fine for me. For I am more likely to get people to get those done and work together to get it done than I ever will get a PUG to work together on a timetable.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
Timers aren't new. That an Optional became Mandatory was what changed.
If you had to do X before Y time elapsed, you still have to do X before Y elapsed...that didn't change with Delta Rising.
All that changed were certain Objectives which were Optional became Mandatory.
The various triggers - somebody does A and B happens - so you have to react to B within a given period of time? That's not new either.
How could something that has always existed been something new that ruined things for you?
It would go back to you didn't care about any of the Optional Objectives...you just wanted the VR R&D mats whenever the queue was eventually completed. That's why I asked about them being tied to the Optional Objectives...cause that's how you were starting to come across.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
this post edited by Trendy before I even typed it
shelly, you can go on making up stuff all you want about anything I've said...but what I've said is there...so you'll just keep looking like smelly.
Well, they are new to me. The content I played before DR did not have timers. After DR, timers started appearing in content I was playing.
The A triggers B is not so much a timer to me. That is a controlable event. WHich means that people can plan when A is triggered to get B. SO I have never been oppossed to those things. Even if it's trollable by people.
Sorry if I seemed like I didn't want optionals. I am fine with optionals. As long as those optionals are controlled by timer. And by timer I mean that the Clocks starts ticking down, regardless of any actions taken. And this timers starts with out giving the team any time to prep and plan before it starts.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Don't be mean.
Virusdancer has an opinion. I have an opinion. We are discussing it politely.
I hope he has seen some of points and where I am at odds with the current system. Some of what he has said has altered some of my thinking about the current content setup.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
He and I don't like each other. It's okay. Well, the mods don't think it's okay. But it's okay.
There are folks that show the least bit of interest in trying, and I dig those folks - try to get them the help they need (either if I can or pointing them to folks that can, just cause I spend too much time on the forums and know a wee bit about this and that doesn't make me a guru/savior...so a bunch of stuff will be dropping a line to somebody else asking them to help or directing the person looking for help toward them).
There are folks that show zero interest in trying, and I get in trouble with the mods because of them.
For some odd reason, sheldon likes to defend the latter group.
I guess I'm just not that familiar with actual timers - outside of the timers that existed and those events that work based off of doing something and then having to be quick about doing something else (whether it's preventing Nanites getting to the Trans, preventing Assimilateds getting to Kang, preventing Probes getting to the gate, etc, etc, etc).
I also don't run any Ground queues, so I'd be completely clueless to what's going on there.
In thinking about it though, CCA actually has a timer there, yeah? Though, to be honest, I couldn't tell you if it was there previously or not...it was always such an easy queue that it was wham, bam, done. I'm thinking that it wasn't there, though...cause when DR first dropped, CCA was a fungasm of difficulty - and - there's no way it could have been in a state with any sort of failed timer at that point. Would need to hunt that down...
...will have to look more into the timers that are out there - actual clocks, not the do X before Y happens things...cause as you said, there are ways to deal with the do X before Y things.
But would that get into a case of providing longer timers? Those being adjusted? Hrmm, meh, I'm running low on caffeine at the moment - but I've got a faint memory of having a similar discussion previously. The image of various racing games where you can do things to extend the clock is coming to mind...can't remember if I posted that before. Let me search.
Heh, yeah, from a previous discussion with Sheldon...
The only reason you and virus are still at this is because both of you are harcore science ship drivers and the current Fails like infected has is right up your ships strength
That's why both of you whine so much to keep things like they are and bully anyone who says anything differnt
Normals are so easy they teach NOTHING at all to a new player to do a advanced
Reading ? how many seconds do you get to read before the shooting starts 5 seconds...........Plz
crafting mats given in adv and normal.................both are patethic
Has the fails made the STfs more popular ? No
Has the fails made that content more Fun ? No
Has the fails improved the average players game ..No they fail at the first transformer and don't understand why.....then after doing the patethic normal leave the game
expert or veteran players know why this happens...no time to communicate before the first fail occurs unless your in a science ship to hold back the nanites
The best thing cryptic should do is remove these game damaging Fails which were a FAIL in themselves when they were first put into the game
Only a fool would say these Fails are good for the game or a selfish player not looking past their own self interest
Or cryptic not wanting to admit how much these fails have hurt the game
There arnt many veterans left now days , Bur some of us know how it used to be and how it is now
What we got right now is a shadow of what pugs used to be and the biggest reason are these fail condititions
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
I had to stop right there, cause I was already laughing too much at that point to have gone on...lol.
Kapit Tucco@paxdawn, Romulan Tac, flying a Scimitar Dreadnought Warbird, doing 91k+ DPS.
Willard the Rat@virusdancer, Klingon Sci, flying a Geneva Command Battlecruiser, doing 13-21k DPS.
paxdawn is pushing for folks saying PVE is easy to prove it in HSE.
I'm thinking it would be cool if more folks would hit up HSA.
Lol, yeah, I couldn't read beyond how you started there.
edit: Course, could get into Meena there (had forgotten they were in my signature)...I might actually break 8k with her one of these days. What Sci does she have going on?
TT1, HY2, KW3, CRF3
EPtS1, EPtW2
ET1, RSP1
HE1, ST2, DRB2
It's just too funny reading that first bit, I can't imagine how funny the rest must have been.
edit2: How about the Sci that Willard's sporting?
OE1, CRF1
TT1, APB1
EPtW1, AtS1, CF3, RPM3
EPtS1, RSP1
Tach1, ST2, HE3
Tachyon Beam 1...it's Sci!!!!!!! Yeah, Improved Tachyon Beam Starship Trait...it's an AoE shield heal.
I run space more often than ground. But you got similar issues in both, with added fun of having the enviroment blocking your view or targeting. Your targeting but not the NPC's, lol. Being shot through a wall is so much fun! (yeah)
Adding timers, or ways to elongate the timers, is not the way to go. I still don't think it gives people the ability to plan at the start. No matter what you do with timers, planning at the start is hampered because the clock is ticking. And elongating the timers, unless they are guarenteed things, doesn't help help with that. And if the elongation is gaurenteed, then why have the timer?
No, I think removing the timers, and changing the mission fails to option failed, will help foster teamwork. Because people will definately plan out how to finish the mission. Once they have that down, they will start figuring oiut how to accomplish the optionals. And as long as there is way to plan before starting on the optionals, then people will get better at getting them done. Which is what I see happen in every other MMO I play, for it allows for PUG's to talk and plan and get better through expiramentation. And they don't have cool downs on those queued events in most cases. (There are exceptions)
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
The DPS timers are there to encourage / force people to upgrade
cryptic starts most missions especially infected space almost in weapons range so they don't want you to talk or read anything
Fail to optional is the way to go
PTW DPS is so out of control the cool down has to remain in place to keep the wallet warriors from making a joke out of the content
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
From my personal perspective there are only a handful of missions that are miserable to pug. Azure was one, Borg disconnected another, and I think Herald Sphere might be a 3rd, though I doubt it will be played enough.
So I am happy now to get to pug anything. There are a good number to enjoy. And I am trying to enjoy while I can. I think we can see that the pug is an endangered breed.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."