If it's his seventh alt what good will running it through normal first do? Normal only gives marks. He's not going to be gearing up in normal.
Most of the rep gear only needs marks, while the few that need BNP's and such, can be obtained elsewhere much easier, than them trying to fail thru advance STF's.
If it's his seventh alt what good will running it through normal first do? Normal only gives marks. He's not going to be gearing up in normal.
Apparently he's going to go into advanced without gearing up for advanced.
So that he can get elite marks...to gear up for...nothing, because he can't be bothered to gear up in the first place.
So, he's just using "gearing up" as an excuse to get free rewards, but this time he swears he's really going to "gear up," and not just move on to leeching off elite queues.
Where does it end? With everyone getting free rewards just for showing up. That already describes the current future of advanced queues.
Of course, all this comes at the expense of anyone willing to put in a modicum of effort. They just see reduced rewards, and more leeches they're expected to carry.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
Well milli, in regards to Borg STF's, they have what is mandatory and, what is optional already separated.
That only reinforces just how oblivious PUGs are. I guess they needed a big flashing UI detailing why they failed, though they'd probably ignore that as well.
The idea that they'll suddenly start learning in advanced, when they wouldn't even take the time to learn in normal, is laughable. The whole pretense of even "learning" is now gone.
Seems like its entirely about welfare rewards.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
Of course, all this comes at the expense of anyone willing to put in a modicum of effort. They just see reduced rewards, and more leeches they're expected to carry.
What are they going to do? Form invite only DPS gated channels and only form groups from within?
They've already abandoned pugs, except for when they feel the need to troll ICA.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
That only reinforces just how oblivious PUGs are. I guess they needed a big flashing UI detailing why they failed, though they'd probably ignore that as well.
The idea that they'll suddenly start learning in advanced, when they wouldn't even take the time to learn in normal, is laughable. The whole pretense of even "learning" is now gone.
Seems like its entirely about welfare rewards.
Lol, yeah that's how it was pretty much, when they first balanced the missions when it came to reputations.
Now it seems like, they are slowly reverting back to those days!
Enough with flaming each other over this. You're welcome to leave your feedback, even to defend your position, but calling each other names or suggesting that other posters are stupid is not okay.
Also, I fail to understand why some are spending a lot of effort discussing the Crystalline Entity queue when right now there's only one queue that has the changes... which are subject to change!!! Based on feedback you aren't leaving because you're talking about CE!!!
Forum fail.
As far as ANRA goes, can only post what I posted in the main thread...
A group moving from ANRN to ANRA might find themselves facing an Advanced challenge. Might be an Elite challenge. Might be something even easier than Normal offered. Because of the RNG. With the four initial spawns, the level of challenge can vary wildly. This is a problem and should have been adjusted to provide a static increase in challenge when moving from Normal to Advanced. For that matter, ANRN should have had a static initial Optional Objective.
ANRA...new: RNG
The challenge is again not static and varies from group to group for both the first and second Objectives. It even adds an additional RNG failed Optional element in either not enough ships spawning or not enough ships of value spawning to complete the Objectives.
Both the old and new ANRA suffer from Russian Roulette and Players vs. RNG. So whether it was the old ANRA or the new ANRA, the failed Mandatory Objective or failed Optional Objectives can completely be out of the player's control. The change doesn't change that. It does not address that issue.
Suggestion: Set the initial spawns for ANRA instead of having them randomly generated to provide a consistent increase in challenge when moving from Normal to Advanced.
Of course, all this comes at the expense of anyone willing to put in a modicum of effort. They just see reduced rewards, and more leeches they're expected to carry.
What are they going to do? Form invite only DPS gated channels and only form groups from within?
They've already abandoned pugs, except for when they feel the need to troll ICA.
But uh, hrmmm, that's kind of an odd thing to say. So the folks that have put the slightest bit of effort into running Advanced content are either off in channels or if they're running public queues they're trolling?
The one guy attacking folks in multiple threads has basically said that's what it's about...meh. It's all about welfare R&D mats...meh.
There are all sorts of folks out there, but it only takes a few like that guy to TRIBBLE things up for the everybody else and stir up all sorts of bad blood between folks when there simply isn't any need. Everybody should collectively be looking at players like that and reaching for the Excedrin for the /massivefacepalm.
If the Scimitars that popped the gens almost instantly hadn't warped out right after I'm pretty sure they could've gotten at least 30k invites with the speed they trolled the run.
And as you keep saying everyone else is just welfare trash looking for hand outs so they obviously can't be trying.
I have neither the palm nor the face large enough for the /facepalm that requires. I honestly don't know if you're simply incapable of tracking who said what or if you're just replying with random garbage to troll.
So is this just about welfare mats then? I'm kind of confused. Cause I keep seeing that come up...the tinfoil bit that folks are trying to corner the market on mats and keep other players down (even if most of those supposed players that are trying to keep folks down are offering all sorts of help to bring players up)...
...folks want to bring their 1-2k boats into Advanced queues so others can get them their mats?
Cause that's how it's kind of reading.
Attack the folks that are trying to help those folks get up to 4-5k or more and demand that Advanced be set to allow 1-2k folks to get their mats off the back of others.
And that's just sad...imho.
I'll just leave this here. Someone must have forgotten it.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
So is this just about welfare mats then? I'm kind of confused. Cause I keep seeing that come up...the tinfoil bit that folks are trying to corner the market on mats and keep other players down (even if most of those supposed players that are trying to keep folks down are offering all sorts of help to bring players up)...
...folks want to bring their 1-2k boats into Advanced queues so others can get them their mats?
Cause that's how it's kind of reading.
Attack the folks that are trying to help those folks get up to 4-5k or more and demand that Advanced be set to allow 1-2k folks to get their mats off the back of others.
And that's just sad...imho.
Did you skip those parts, somehow? You know...how there are folks that are trying...there are folks that are trying to help them...but then there's the guy saying it's okay to leech and attacking all the folks that would help folks reach the point of doing Advanced.
You know, that other guy there, the one with even more imagination than you have and even less reading comprehension than you do...the one saying it's just a conspiracy of folks trying to corner the market on R&D mats, that it's okay to leech, and attacking folks that go out of their way to try to help folks...cause helping folks wouldn't help him leech. It would just add more folks to the grand conspiracy of folks trying to corner that market!!!
But hey, if you want to come off like him...that's your choice.
ICE can't come soon enough so the l33t can have their heaven back.
I am not some as you say l33t player, in fact I rarely break 10k-20k margin and, most often average more like 8k-11k.
Advanced seems just right for me and, that's where I stick to mostly, unless I run into a good group for elite, forcing me to make changes to my build of course or, run with a good pre-made group which again may cause me to make changes to my build.
But, this is how I like it, because I make the effort to not only keep my dps low for fun factor but, also so it keep me on my toes needing to move a lot, depend on team mates, strategy and, kind of gives me more of a canon sense of battle.
But, I am also an experienced player and, offer advise when needed and, take advise from those with more experience than myself, as to learn from the master's so to speak.
Because it never hurts to learn everything you can and, it can be a good way to gain friends as well!
There will always be new player's [noobs, newbs, etc.] coming in and, some will no doubt learn quickly on their won, while other's will learn with a little help from other's.
But, there are those who never seem to learn and, even some who seemingly prefer not to need learn and/or, just don't care about learning to play well.
There are folks that might not be quite ready for Advanced, but they're trying. They want to have a chance at a successful run and they're making a good faith effort at it. They've found Normal to be pretty easy, and they figure they're ready for Advanced. With a healthy public pug queue system, the odds are pretty good they'll be paired with somebody carrying a bit of buffer. So the run with have a decent chance at being a successful run. Those folks aren't going to rest on their laurels though, they'll look for ways to contribute more to the run the next time. Maybe they post about their build, maybe they just read what others have posted, maybe they ask questions, maybe they read questions already asked and answered...the gist is, they're trying, yeah? New player? Casual player? It's a player that's trying - considering the other folks on the team...a good thing, yeah?
There are folks that know they're not ready. They've done and are going to do the least that they have to so they can tag along for the reward. Maybe they've got a dozen alts that they leveled by DOFFing, haven't looked at a single piece of gear, didn't spend any skill points beyond what they needed to get into position to start DOFFing. They want to get some R&D mats for their main toon. Hit the spacebar and fly in the general direction of the enemy...that's what they're willing to do. They don't give a rat's TRIBBLE about anybody else.
That first group? I think we should do everything we can to help them - we should provide all the info we can, any tips we might have, whether on where to get different levels of gear or discussing mechanics/builds/whatever, and do so in a manner that's a positive experience. Cause if they're having a good time, maybe they'll stick around some, maybe they'll spend some, maybe they'll tell friends about the great experience they had, maybe those friends will play, maybe they'll spend some, and the game...thrives...does well...it's awesome for everybody, right?
It's less marks for me either way. Did you seriously continue to PUG queues that regularly failed?
And for what? So that some TRIBBLE can run his severely undergeared seventh alt through advanced, instead of taking the time to get through normal first? So that Cryptic can be spared the embarrassment of removing the Optional tag?
1) PUGs are dead because changes done in DR.
2) Something need to change to revive all dead PUGs or they might as well be removed and replaced.
3) If one does not do PUGs this change does not change anything
4) Removing Optional MIGHT change things, but it still MIGHT not.
You might have given up on PUGs that does not give reward, but that is not a solution when crafting is so connected to the queues. The changes Cryptic tries now is a step in right direction that might end up perfect once fine tuned.
The only thing which changed is that they can now NOT LEARN in advanced.
Next, the QQ train about elite will start, and folks such as yourself will be whining about how the need for salvaged tech outweighs the need for high end content. Before long, you'll be able to NOT LEARN in elite, and get full rewards for it.
What's the point of even having this content? So that a handful of uber-DPSers can farm it while it's still paying out well, before Cryptic nerfs it so that the masses can feel special just for queuing up?
Since you can get everything you need in advanced for rep and crafting, even if slower then in elite, there would be no need to change anything in elite. Hell, I am all for making elite even more difficult and adding conditions that DPS can not solve.
As for learning, this change is much better for new players to learn how to play advanced.
A test server is supposed to be used to properly test patches before patching anything....
Is "Advanced" leveling content or not? Are there materials/rewards included therein that will "level" your gear/playing ability and make your toon "better"? And if "Advanced" is indeed "end-game" content, (for those who already have everything), then what is the one up from it?
Those who have played STO for 5 years seem to think everyone has everything the game has to offer. (this is nothing new to MMOs, I seen the same mindset in Galaxies and I was there for almost 9 years). NOT everyone has all the gear/etc and they are still trying to "level up", either in the levels themselves, gear (and STO has about the largest gear-grind I think I've ever seen with all the different pieces), ships, etc and if the only place they can get these materials is "advanced" ( very poor game design to include "elite status (old end-game content) as now leveling content), but that's where the game design directs them. And for them, the "old elite", now "advanced", is basicly "programed to die", a lot. That's really fun and makes anyone want to spend money in the C-Store or play this game for years to get everything like everyone else. /scarcasm
Most of the rep gear only needs marks, while the few that need BNP's and such, can be obtained elsewhere much easier, than them trying to fail thru advance STF's.
Much easier!
But not the crafting materials. So either they should do this change or add another way to get them elsewhere as well.
I would like to ask you one thing though that I asked millimidget earlier, in what way does this change make things worse for you?
You can still run good groups just like before.
A test server is supposed to be used to properly test patches before patching anything....
Is "Advanced" leveling content or not? Are there materials/rewards included therein that will "level" your gear/playing ability and make your toon "better"? And if "Advanced" is indeed "end-game" content, (for those who already have everything), then what is the one up from it?
The end game is elite, though just like raids in most MMO it is not available in all queues. They probably should add more elite queues that have problem that can not be solved with DPS.
A test server is supposed to be used to properly test patches before patching anything....
And that could have been resolved by removing the Optional tag.
Sounds like that for all the changes Cryptic has made and will continue to make, they still refuse to improve their communication of game mechanics.
If that doesn't change, none of the other changes really matter. Everyone who prefers to alt-tab to another window during combat will now get their free rewards. Everyone who can muster the 5-10 minutes of focus needed for an STF will now get reduced rewards.
The reduced rewards are among the things they should fine tune, so that if one does finish all optionals reward should never be less then it was before.
As for the current queue they should also fix the problem that random spawn can make it even theoretical impossible to succeed with optionals.
The idea for the change is sound though.
A test server is supposed to be used to properly test patches before patching anything....
Just one? I could live with. Once all of the potential leechers realize that they're now being fully supported, it's going to be more than just one. It'll be more like 3-4 in every match. Very much how it used to be way back when.
Sigh, and you think it is better that one does get no reward and PUGs die off?
I think it will become better with this change and I am afraid that we have to disagree on this issue.
A test server is supposed to be used to properly test patches before patching anything....
There are folks that might not be quite ready for Advanced, but they're trying. They want to have a chance at a successful run and they're making a good faith effort at it. They've found Normal to be pretty easy, and they figure they're ready for Advanced. With a healthy public pug queue system, the odds are pretty good they'll be paired with somebody carrying a bit of buffer. So the run with have a decent chance at being a successful run. Those folks aren't going to rest on their laurels though, they'll look for ways to contribute more to the run the next time. Maybe they post about their build, maybe they just read what others have posted, maybe they ask questions, maybe they read questions already asked and answered...the gist is, they're trying, yeah? New player? Casual player? It's a player that's trying - considering the other folks on the team...a good thing, yeah?
Then I think we have a problem since we do not have a healthy public PUG queue system right now.
That is why I am for this change, because we need some change to get life back into PUGs. And on top of that I do think this change does give those that play better ability to learn the advanced while playing.
A test server is supposed to be used to properly test patches before patching anything....
Did you skip those parts, somehow? You know...how there are folks that are trying...there are folks that are trying to help them...but then there's the guy saying it's okay to leech and attacking all the folks that would help folks reach the point of doing Advanced.
You know, that other guy there, the one with even more imagination than you have and even less reading comprehension than you do...the one saying it's just a conspiracy of folks trying to corner the market on R&D mats, that it's okay to leech, and attacking folks that go out of their way to try to help folks...cause helping folks wouldn't help him leech. It would just add more folks to the grand conspiracy of folks trying to corner that market!!!
But hey, if you want to come off like him...that's your choice.
This guy? You can post my name. :P
Honestly why would anyone be against this change that give new players better chance to learn if they did not have some motive for it.
1) One can still do runs in good premade groups, so it does not affect that.
2) If one do advanced PUGs and end up in as many bad groups as one do these days one do at least get some reward, even if it is a lot less then when in a good group.
There is absolutely no drawback with this change, it just open up the advanced for more people so we can get the PUGs up and running again.
And all I hear from certain individuals (see I can do that too ) is how horrible it would be if a few afk leeches might possible get something from it. Perhaps certain individuals (there I did it again) would come up with suggestions instead how to solve that problem like I tried to. :rolleyes:
A test server is supposed to be used to properly test patches before patching anything....
But not the crafting materials. So either they should do this change or add another way to get them elsewhere as well.
I would like to ask you one thing though that I asked millimidget earlier, in what way does this change make things worse for you?
You can still run good groups just like before.
Um, considering there are few elites to run, than most are restricted to normal & advanced so, with people who couldn't handle them before, are now having the game nerfed for them giving them a false sense of accomplishment.
All while again making it easier for the leecher's, to do their part once again.
Now, let's take this player in perspective shall we.
Here you can plainly see, that they play with power settings set at balanced, probably the entire mission and/or, every mission for that matter [granted, they are using a torpedo build but, with such an array of auxpwr based skills, they aren't benefitting really unless this person raises their auxpwr].
How is making the missions easier, actually teaching this person that this is bad [If this were an in-experienced player doing this]?
It doesn't, all it does it make it seem like he is doing better, hence giving the player a false sense of accomplishment, when they aren't actually accomplishing anything by their own means!
This example, is not uncommon and, is why we tend to see so many 1k-3k dps player's roaming advanced missions, other than some actually doing this for the purpose of griefing/trolling other's.
Missions like ISA, have but 1 optional, just 1.
While everything else is mandatory, yet player's cannot seem to grasp what is what, when it is plainly laid out for them.
Gee we failed, why did we fail, because we didn't handle the mandatory part, mmmm ok.
That is something they should now have learned and, by learning they failed the mandatory part(s) provided they even pay attention to what they are, than it is simply a matter of figuring out why? Who might be the cause of it? Was it an individual? Was it more than 1 individual? Was it the whole team's fault? Were they not quick enough? Did they not do enough dmg? Did they attack the wrong things? etc.? etc.? etc.?
^All of which is part of the learning process but, it seems many cannot grasp this and/or, do not question any of this and, that is one of the biggest underlining problems!
I mean for Christ sakes, you got player's who don't even know how to bring up a map, how to read their map, don't even realize there is a mini-map, etc.
Don't know what 85% of their keys, on their keyboard do in game!
Don't know how to change ANY options!
Don't know where to buy hypos from!
Don't know where a shipyard is!
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.
Some will learn, either on their own and/or, with the guidance from other's but, again we will have those who seemingly will never learn and/or, prefer not to either.
And, those who support this for them as well!
It's like encouraging an adult, who doesn't swim to well in a regular pool, to go swim in the new kiddy pool we replaced it with, giving them a false sense of accomplishment of being a good swimmer now, because all of the good swimmers have to swim in a kiddy pool with them or, go swim in what few Olympic pools are available because there are no regular pools anymore!
but, again we will have those who seemingly will never learn and/or, prefer not to either.
So what? We always had them and always will have them. Fail criteria certainly did not stop them from queuing up simply because of the reason that they havent anything to loose.
Fails only hindered me to queue up as often as I would have liked to because those players where in a position to waist my time. If the fails are removed and those players only surface or in a slow match or in a lost optional at most, so nothing lost. I bet a lot like me will jump on that train.
If Im eager for a challenge I can pug an elite.
If I want smooth sailing I can hide in DPS channels.
If I just want to play for some fun peew peew I can pug advanced without remorse.
If normal mode pve would not be as insultingly easy as it is I think this concept would have worked the past moths as well but it didnt.
Now it will and thats a good change.
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really nobody should suffer from this change the least bit.
I'm curious ... , have you substantially pugged ANRA after the change?
See I did ... , and what I came away with was that apart from a seeming fluke at the first run, all the other pugs didn't get the 10 ships saved in the time .
This made me draw two conclusions:
1. This "fix" only removed the fail of the queue, but it did in no way promote a successful (awarding) pug experience .
2. Considering the above , I became concerned about how this lack of support for a successful pug experience will be translated & implemented to any of the other STF pug queues .
Now it could be that they will tune their current ANRA solution some more .
Apart from my one fluke, it has been my experience that pugs can save anywhere between 5-8 ships in 4 minutes (with 5 being the most common and 8 being a few times only) .
YMMV ... , but I'd suggest getting a week's worth of experience with pugs and then continue this discussion .
Perspective never hurts, nor does experience .
This thread is on a good track to turn into the best face palm thread I ever read.
That's because the folks opposing the change have a very narrow POV , while those who support it have been supporting it ever since it was announced ... -- when it sounded good on paper .
... apart from the Marks nerf ... , erm, I mean "standardization" ...
I'm curious ... , have you substantially pugged ANRA after the change?
See I did ... , and what I came away with was that apart from a seeming fluke at the first run, all the other pugs didn't get the 10 ships saved in the time .
This made me draw two conclusions:
1. This "fix" only removed the fail of the queue, but it did in no way promote a successful (awarding) pug experience .
2. Considering the above , I became concerned about how this lack of support for a successful pug experience will be translated & implemented to any of the other STF pug queues .
Now it could be that they will tune their current ANRA solution some more .
Apart from my one fluke, it has been my experience that pugs can save anywhere between 5-8 ships in 4 minutes (with 5 being the most common and 8 being a few times only) .
YMMV ... , but I'd suggest getting a week's worth of experience with pugs and then continue this discussion .
Perspective never hurts, nor does experience .
In fact I have played ANRA more often the past week than I had the past 6 moth.
The only problem this map suffers from is lack of ships to be freed to fulfil the optional objectives. I think we got the first a few times but not the second.
The reward of that map felt as low as ever, especially compared to other maps but at least pugging ensured 720Dil and the daily as well as the mark reward which translates to another 700 or so. Without the daily the PvE is not interesting to earn dil nor reputation marks because of the miserable time gating.
If you try to point put that cryptic sneaked in some bugs in that mission (where ships to be freed are displayed as icon but not actually there e.g.) then I agree.
There dont seem to spawn enough ships to fulfil the optionally to begin with atm. Even Pre-DR good teams were sitting in there for minutes without anything to do. For maps like ISA I dont see such problems ahead because these tasks are a bit more independed of RNG generated critters and tasks.
But anything is possible.
After DR IGA was not being able to complete for weeks because the virus to lower shields in final room could not be uploaded. Of course I expect more surprises like these on 4 years old maps when any change is done to them.
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Here you can plainly see, that they play with power settings set at balanced, probably the entire mission and/or, every mission for that matter [granted, they are using a torpedo build but, with such an array of auxpwr based skills, they aren't benefitting really unless this person raises their auxpwr].
How is making the missions easier, actually teaching this person that this is bad [If this were an in-experienced player doing this]?
It doesn't, all it does it make it seem like he is doing better, hence giving the player a false sense of accomplishment, when they aren't actually accomplishing anything by their own means!
I think you got it entirely wrong.
Before he would just go in with all this bad settings and tactics, starting to get his bearing and it fails.
You are correct that people could learn better, but obviously they don't so something new (or rather old) has to be tried out. By not failing mission they have time to learn by watching others and hopefully getting comments from others, which usually do not happen in the fail scenario where most players just got annoyed that they got locked out again and leave.
There will be no sense of accomplishment when one see that one failed every single option and got minimal reward. But it does tell that something need to improve to manage those optionals, hence they learn and hopefully tries harder next time.
As I wrote earlier those that are AFK should be checked and get a failed mission individually.
A test server is supposed to be used to properly test patches before patching anything....
This thread is still chugging away? Huh, all right. I shall opine for a few moments before heading to work.
The issue to me comes down to whether the fail conditions on advanced can be considered a hindrance to character progression. If a player hits a skill wall, there has to be an appealing way for him to power through it with greater time and effort, or a viable and enjoyable alternate path for progression, or he will seek entertainment elsewhere.
STF's are an in-game gate for reputation based gear and trait options. They represent both a way to improve your character, and an obstacle to improve yourself enough to overcome. They also represent the majority of this MMO's end-game so they're not exactly optional. Under the current system they became the source of a skill wall, whether you think it's a reasonable skill wall or not is probably not going to be relevant, but because players could reach the stage where STF's were their only enjoyable means of obtaining very rare crafting materials for gear upgrades, and BNP's and their equivalents for reputation gear, they need to be completable.
Now, removing the fail conditions is just one option here. They could make rare crafting materials and BNP's available in game through alternate means, and then focus on making those alternate means rewarding to players. Or they could add rewarding and enjoyable alternate means of character advancement that do not depend on very rare crafting materials and BNP's, the exchange was mentioned earlier as a way to get very rare crafting materials, with a cost breakdown based on which very rare materials were worth more and hardest to get.
My personal preference, to be honest and after reading a large portion of this thread, would be to keep options in advanced as optionals, but to have their failure reduce rewards down to what you would expect from normal. Players who routinely fail optionals would quickly discover they get normals down quicker and for the same reward. Players who learned what the optional objectives were and could become reasonably certain of achieving them would enjoy better rewards in advanced settings. However, while this feels fair to me and would establish incentive to learn the missions, I doubt this solution would do anything to address the underlying problem of people doing advanced missions while not understanding the strategies needed.
Quite simply it just isn't a lot of fun to do...Why it was chosen as the first Q to be modified is beyond me
I don't see any changes in it to make it more fun to play...Quite the opposite is what I am seeing
The number of players should be 6 not 5
The spawn point of players should be 3 groups of 2 each by their objective
If 2 players are grouped up they should spawn together
The enemy spawns should be tailored for 2 players in difficulty unless a 4 or 5 point spawn appears
More work needs to be done to put FUN into a Q in my opinion , Once you have the fun factor reached then you can worry about rewards and optional difficulty
It seems the fun factor is left to last to worry about
There is a good reason a Lot of Qs arnt played
Mainly its because they were never fun to play in the first place
And the MAIN thing....................Developers should STOP using romulan characters to set up and use as there test characters for development
A test group should have 1 romulan 1 Klingon and 3 Feds as the test group which would represent the STO population
I saw a post by Bort where he said his test group was 15 CriT chance and 200 crit Sev which is a very lofty goal for non fleet Klingon and Fed players
But a easy goal for Romulan anti proton users.........A Very unfair test group which pretty much Dumps on Fed and Klingon players and all of us who don't use anti proton builds
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
The end game is elite, though just like raids in most MMO it is not available in all queues. They probably should add more elite queues that have problem that can not be solved with DPS.
Yeah, I know. Advanced is leveling content. However, Cryptic has never been that great at balance, in PVP or PVE. Started with PVE with the BoPs in Closed Beta and continues in now "advanced", nerfbat swinging on defenses at the F2P NGE while adding to DPS with the store - creating "vapeing" in PVP, etc etc etc.
Not to mention that the engine just does not keep up while your trying to play 3 secs in front of the screen, hitting keybinds that the query throws out, and God help the mouse "clickers". So to help this problems, add more NPCs/annimations/powers/toolbars/1 hit kills, etc and slow things down even more so the server says your dead but it just doesn't quite hit the screen for some secs after. No wonder why no1 wants to Q-up any longer, for PVP or PVE.
Was the easy mode of development just writing a script to add 70-100% more hitpoints/DPS to every NPC at delta and this is easy mode as well, change 1 code line for optionals and call it good. What should be done is what they suggested as the extreme possibility and that's to re-tune EVERY STF instance for difficulty and engine problems and actually make QA do it's job. Or......., *gasp*, put the changes on TC and actually listen to the people who play and test these things. Using metrics as your sole request for change ends up as you get the idea when everyone in the game has either stopped using the content or moved on to another MMO.
The end game is elite, though just like raids in most MMO it is not available in all queues. They probably should add more elite queues that have problem that can not be solved with DPS.
It's a subjective term and one that has been at the core of countless flamewars across countless forums for both games and gaming sites over the years.
Some people see it as everything that can be done at max level.
Some people see it as only the most difficult/current content.
Advanced would be endgame for the first folks.
Advanced wouldn't be endgame for the second folks.
Like many things, a newer generation came along and decided to redefine things...and the entertainment of those arguments spreads across the internet like a wildfire - amongst all the other such arguments.
edit: One could potentially make the argument that Advanced isn't technically endgame because the player does not need to be 60, they are just scaled to 60. Yet one could potentially make the argument that because they are scaled to 60 they are technically 60. Fun stuff there, yeah?
Comments
Most of the rep gear only needs marks, while the few that need BNP's and such, can be obtained elsewhere much easier, than them trying to fail thru advance STF's.
Much easier!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
So that he can get elite marks...to gear up for...nothing, because he can't be bothered to gear up in the first place.
So, he's just using "gearing up" as an excuse to get free rewards, but this time he swears he's really going to "gear up," and not just move on to leeching off elite queues.
Where does it end? With everyone getting free rewards just for showing up. That already describes the current future of advanced queues.
Of course, all this comes at the expense of anyone willing to put in a modicum of effort. They just see reduced rewards, and more leeches they're expected to carry.
The idea that they'll suddenly start learning in advanced, when they wouldn't even take the time to learn in normal, is laughable. The whole pretense of even "learning" is now gone.
Seems like its entirely about welfare rewards.
What are they going to do? Form invite only DPS gated channels and only form groups from within?
They've already abandoned pugs, except for when they feel the need to troll ICA.
Lol, yeah that's how it was pretty much, when they first balanced the missions when it came to reputations.
Now it seems like, they are slowly reverting back to those days!
:rolleyes:
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
As far as ANRA goes, can only post what I posted in the main thread...
* * * * *
But uh, hrmmm, that's kind of an odd thing to say. So the folks that have put the slightest bit of effort into running Advanced content are either off in channels or if they're running public queues they're trolling?
I can't possibly be reading that right...
* * * * *
The one guy attacking folks in multiple threads has basically said that's what it's about...meh. It's all about welfare R&D mats...meh.
There are all sorts of folks out there, but it only takes a few like that guy to TRIBBLE things up for the everybody else and stir up all sorts of bad blood between folks when there simply isn't any need. Everybody should collectively be looking at players like that and reaching for the Excedrin for the /massivefacepalm.
I have neither the palm nor the face large enough for the /facepalm that requires. I honestly don't know if you're simply incapable of tracking who said what or if you're just replying with random garbage to troll.
I'll just leave this here. Someone must have forgotten it.
How about you actually read it, eh? It's kind of sad that you quoted it and didn't read it.
Where in what you quoted is it saying....
Shall we take a look at what you quoted there?
Did you skip those parts, somehow? You know...how there are folks that are trying...there are folks that are trying to help them...but then there's the guy saying it's okay to leech and attacking all the folks that would help folks reach the point of doing Advanced.
You know, that other guy there, the one with even more imagination than you have and even less reading comprehension than you do...the one saying it's just a conspiracy of folks trying to corner the market on R&D mats, that it's okay to leech, and attacking folks that go out of their way to try to help folks...cause helping folks wouldn't help him leech. It would just add more folks to the grand conspiracy of folks trying to corner that market!!!
But hey, if you want to come off like him...that's your choice.
I am not some as you say l33t player, in fact I rarely break 10k-20k margin and, most often average more like 8k-11k.
Advanced seems just right for me and, that's where I stick to mostly, unless I run into a good group for elite, forcing me to make changes to my build of course or, run with a good pre-made group which again may cause me to make changes to my build.
But, this is how I like it, because I make the effort to not only keep my dps low for fun factor but, also so it keep me on my toes needing to move a lot, depend on team mates, strategy and, kind of gives me more of a canon sense of battle.
But, I am also an experienced player and, offer advise when needed and, take advise from those with more experience than myself, as to learn from the master's so to speak.
Because it never hurts to learn everything you can and, it can be a good way to gain friends as well!
There will always be new player's [noobs, newbs, etc.] coming in and, some will no doubt learn quickly on their won, while other's will learn with a little help from other's.
But, there are those who never seem to learn and, even some who seemingly prefer not to need learn and/or, just don't care about learning to play well.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
There are folks that might not be quite ready for Advanced, but they're trying. They want to have a chance at a successful run and they're making a good faith effort at it. They've found Normal to be pretty easy, and they figure they're ready for Advanced. With a healthy public pug queue system, the odds are pretty good they'll be paired with somebody carrying a bit of buffer. So the run with have a decent chance at being a successful run. Those folks aren't going to rest on their laurels though, they'll look for ways to contribute more to the run the next time. Maybe they post about their build, maybe they just read what others have posted, maybe they ask questions, maybe they read questions already asked and answered...the gist is, they're trying, yeah? New player? Casual player? It's a player that's trying - considering the other folks on the team...a good thing, yeah?
There are folks that know they're not ready. They've done and are going to do the least that they have to so they can tag along for the reward. Maybe they've got a dozen alts that they leveled by DOFFing, haven't looked at a single piece of gear, didn't spend any skill points beyond what they needed to get into position to start DOFFing. They want to get some R&D mats for their main toon. Hit the spacebar and fly in the general direction of the enemy...that's what they're willing to do. They don't give a rat's TRIBBLE about anybody else.
That first group? I think we should do everything we can to help them - we should provide all the info we can, any tips we might have, whether on where to get different levels of gear or discussing mechanics/builds/whatever, and do so in a manner that's a positive experience. Cause if they're having a good time, maybe they'll stick around some, maybe they'll spend some, maybe they'll tell friends about the great experience they had, maybe those friends will play, maybe they'll spend some, and the game...thrives...does well...it's awesome for everybody, right?
It's that simple.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~Bluegeek
1) PUGs are dead because changes done in DR.
2) Something need to change to revive all dead PUGs or they might as well be removed and replaced.
3) If one does not do PUGs this change does not change anything
4) Removing Optional MIGHT change things, but it still MIGHT not.
You might have given up on PUGs that does not give reward, but that is not a solution when crafting is so connected to the queues. The changes Cryptic tries now is a step in right direction that might end up perfect once fine tuned.
Since you can get everything you need in advanced for rep and crafting, even if slower then in elite, there would be no need to change anything in elite. Hell, I am all for making elite even more difficult and adding conditions that DPS can not solve.
As for learning, this change is much better for new players to learn how to play advanced.
A test server is supposed to be used to properly test patches before patching anything....
Is "Advanced" leveling content or not? Are there materials/rewards included therein that will "level" your gear/playing ability and make your toon "better"? And if "Advanced" is indeed "end-game" content, (for those who already have everything), then what is the one up from it?
Those who have played STO for 5 years seem to think everyone has everything the game has to offer. (this is nothing new to MMOs, I seen the same mindset in Galaxies and I was there for almost 9 years). NOT everyone has all the gear/etc and they are still trying to "level up", either in the levels themselves, gear (and STO has about the largest gear-grind I think I've ever seen with all the different pieces), ships, etc and if the only place they can get these materials is "advanced" ( very poor game design to include "elite status (old end-game content) as now leveling content), but that's where the game design directs them. And for them, the "old elite", now "advanced", is basicly "programed to die", a lot. That's really fun and makes anyone want to spend money in the C-Store or play this game for years to get everything like everyone else. /scarcasm
But not the crafting materials. So either they should do this change or add another way to get them elsewhere as well.
I would like to ask you one thing though that I asked millimidget earlier, in what way does this change make things worse for you?
You can still run good groups just like before.
A test server is supposed to be used to properly test patches before patching anything....
The end game is elite, though just like raids in most MMO it is not available in all queues. They probably should add more elite queues that have problem that can not be solved with DPS.
A test server is supposed to be used to properly test patches before patching anything....
The reduced rewards are among the things they should fine tune, so that if one does finish all optionals reward should never be less then it was before.
As for the current queue they should also fix the problem that random spawn can make it even theoretical impossible to succeed with optionals.
The idea for the change is sound though.
A test server is supposed to be used to properly test patches before patching anything....
Sigh, and you think it is better that one does get no reward and PUGs die off?
I think it will become better with this change and I am afraid that we have to disagree on this issue.
A test server is supposed to be used to properly test patches before patching anything....
Then I think we have a problem since we do not have a healthy public PUG queue system right now.
That is why I am for this change, because we need some change to get life back into PUGs. And on top of that I do think this change does give those that play better ability to learn the advanced while playing.
A test server is supposed to be used to properly test patches before patching anything....
This guy? You can post my name. :P
Honestly why would anyone be against this change that give new players better chance to learn if they did not have some motive for it.
1) One can still do runs in good premade groups, so it does not affect that.
2) If one do advanced PUGs and end up in as many bad groups as one do these days one do at least get some reward, even if it is a lot less then when in a good group.
There is absolutely no drawback with this change, it just open up the advanced for more people so we can get the PUGs up and running again.
And all I hear from certain individuals (see I can do that too
A test server is supposed to be used to properly test patches before patching anything....
Lol, I dont get that either with elite mode in place nobody really nobody should suffer from this change the least bit.
This thread is on a good track to turn into the best face palm thread I ever read.
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Um, considering there are few elites to run, than most are restricted to normal & advanced so, with people who couldn't handle them before, are now having the game nerfed for them giving them a false sense of accomplishment.
All while again making it easier for the leecher's, to do their part once again.
Now, let's take this player in perspective shall we.
http://i.imgur.com/skcEUf2.jpg
Here you can plainly see, that they play with power settings set at balanced, probably the entire mission and/or, every mission for that matter [granted, they are using a torpedo build but, with such an array of auxpwr based skills, they aren't benefitting really unless this person raises their auxpwr].
How is making the missions easier, actually teaching this person that this is bad [If this were an in-experienced player doing this]?
It doesn't, all it does it make it seem like he is doing better, hence giving the player a false sense of accomplishment, when they aren't actually accomplishing anything by their own means!
This example, is not uncommon and, is why we tend to see so many 1k-3k dps player's roaming advanced missions, other than some actually doing this for the purpose of griefing/trolling other's.
Missions like ISA, have but 1 optional, just 1.
While everything else is mandatory, yet player's cannot seem to grasp what is what, when it is plainly laid out for them.
Gee we failed, why did we fail, because we didn't handle the mandatory part, mmmm ok.
That is something they should now have learned and, by learning they failed the mandatory part(s) provided they even pay attention to what they are, than it is simply a matter of figuring out why? Who might be the cause of it? Was it an individual? Was it more than 1 individual? Was it the whole team's fault? Were they not quick enough? Did they not do enough dmg? Did they attack the wrong things? etc.? etc.? etc.?
^All of which is part of the learning process but, it seems many cannot grasp this and/or, do not question any of this and, that is one of the biggest underlining problems!
I mean for Christ sakes, you got player's who don't even know how to bring up a map, how to read their map, don't even realize there is a mini-map, etc.
Don't know what 85% of their keys, on their keyboard do in game!
Don't know how to change ANY options!
Don't know where to buy hypos from!
Don't know where a shipyard is!
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.
Some will learn, either on their own and/or, with the guidance from other's but, again we will have those who seemingly will never learn and/or, prefer not to either.
And, those who support this for them as well!
It's like encouraging an adult, who doesn't swim to well in a regular pool, to go swim in the new kiddy pool we replaced it with, giving them a false sense of accomplishment of being a good swimmer now, because all of the good swimmers have to swim in a kiddy pool with them or, go swim in what few Olympic pools are available because there are no regular pools anymore!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
So what? We always had them and always will have them. Fail criteria certainly did not stop them from queuing up simply because of the reason that they havent anything to loose.
Fails only hindered me to queue up as often as I would have liked to because those players where in a position to waist my time. If the fails are removed and those players only surface or in a slow match or in a lost optional at most, so nothing lost. I bet a lot like me will jump on that train.
If Im eager for a challenge I can pug an elite.
If I want smooth sailing I can hide in DPS channels.
If I just want to play for some fun peew peew I can pug advanced without remorse.
If normal mode pve would not be as insultingly easy as it is I think this concept would have worked the past moths as well but it didnt.
Now it will and thats a good change.
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I'm curious ... , have you substantially pugged ANRA after the change?
See I did ... , and what I came away with was that apart from a seeming fluke at the first run, all the other pugs didn't get the 10 ships saved in the time .
This made me draw two conclusions:
1. This "fix" only removed the fail of the queue, but it did in no way promote a successful (awarding) pug experience .
2. Considering the above , I became concerned about how this lack of support for a successful pug experience will be translated & implemented to any of the other STF pug queues .
Now it could be that they will tune their current ANRA solution some more .
Apart from my one fluke, it has been my experience that pugs can save anywhere between 5-8 ships in 4 minutes (with 5 being the most common and 8 being a few times only) .
YMMV ... , but I'd suggest getting a week's worth of experience with pugs and then continue this discussion .
Perspective never hurts, nor does experience .
That's because the folks opposing the change have a very narrow POV , while those who support it have been supporting it ever since it was announced ... -- when it sounded good on paper .
... apart from the Marks nerf ... , erm, I mean "standardization" ...
In fact I have played ANRA more often the past week than I had the past 6 moth.
The only problem this map suffers from is lack of ships to be freed to fulfil the optional objectives. I think we got the first a few times but not the second.
The reward of that map felt as low as ever, especially compared to other maps but at least pugging ensured 720Dil and the daily as well as the mark reward which translates to another 700 or so. Without the daily the PvE is not interesting to earn dil nor reputation marks because of the miserable time gating.
If you try to point put that cryptic sneaked in some bugs in that mission (where ships to be freed are displayed as icon but not actually there e.g.) then I agree.
There dont seem to spawn enough ships to fulfil the optionally to begin with atm. Even Pre-DR good teams were sitting in there for minutes without anything to do. For maps like ISA I dont see such problems ahead because these tasks are a bit more independed of RNG generated critters and tasks.
But anything is possible.
After DR IGA was not being able to complete for weeks because the virus to lower shields in final room could not be uploaded. Of course I expect more surprises like these on 4 years old maps when any change is done to them.
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I think you got it entirely wrong.
Before he would just go in with all this bad settings and tactics, starting to get his bearing and it fails.
You are correct that people could learn better, but obviously they don't so something new (or rather old) has to be tried out. By not failing mission they have time to learn by watching others and hopefully getting comments from others, which usually do not happen in the fail scenario where most players just got annoyed that they got locked out again and leave.
There will be no sense of accomplishment when one see that one failed every single option and got minimal reward. But it does tell that something need to improve to manage those optionals, hence they learn and hopefully tries harder next time.
As I wrote earlier those that are AFK should be checked and get a failed mission individually.
A test server is supposed to be used to properly test patches before patching anything....
The issue to me comes down to whether the fail conditions on advanced can be considered a hindrance to character progression. If a player hits a skill wall, there has to be an appealing way for him to power through it with greater time and effort, or a viable and enjoyable alternate path for progression, or he will seek entertainment elsewhere.
STF's are an in-game gate for reputation based gear and trait options. They represent both a way to improve your character, and an obstacle to improve yourself enough to overcome. They also represent the majority of this MMO's end-game so they're not exactly optional. Under the current system they became the source of a skill wall, whether you think it's a reasonable skill wall or not is probably not going to be relevant, but because players could reach the stage where STF's were their only enjoyable means of obtaining very rare crafting materials for gear upgrades, and BNP's and their equivalents for reputation gear, they need to be completable.
Now, removing the fail conditions is just one option here. They could make rare crafting materials and BNP's available in game through alternate means, and then focus on making those alternate means rewarding to players. Or they could add rewarding and enjoyable alternate means of character advancement that do not depend on very rare crafting materials and BNP's, the exchange was mentioned earlier as a way to get very rare crafting materials, with a cost breakdown based on which very rare materials were worth more and hardest to get.
My personal preference, to be honest and after reading a large portion of this thread, would be to keep options in advanced as optionals, but to have their failure reduce rewards down to what you would expect from normal. Players who routinely fail optionals would quickly discover they get normals down quicker and for the same reward. Players who learned what the optional objectives were and could become reasonably certain of achieving them would enjoy better rewards in advanced settings. However, while this feels fair to me and would establish incentive to learn the missions, I doubt this solution would do anything to address the underlying problem of people doing advanced missions while not understanding the strategies needed.
Has never been a popular Q before DR during DR
Quite simply it just isn't a lot of fun to do...Why it was chosen as the first Q to be modified is beyond me
I don't see any changes in it to make it more fun to play...Quite the opposite is what I am seeing
The number of players should be 6 not 5
The spawn point of players should be 3 groups of 2 each by their objective
If 2 players are grouped up they should spawn together
The enemy spawns should be tailored for 2 players in difficulty unless a 4 or 5 point spawn appears
More work needs to be done to put FUN into a Q in my opinion , Once you have the fun factor reached then you can worry about rewards and optional difficulty
It seems the fun factor is left to last to worry about
There is a good reason a Lot of Qs arnt played
Mainly its because they were never fun to play in the first place
And the MAIN thing....................Developers should STOP using romulan characters to set up and use as there test characters for development
A test group should have 1 romulan 1 Klingon and 3 Feds as the test group which would represent the STO population
I saw a post by Bort where he said his test group was 15 CriT chance and 200 crit Sev which is a very lofty goal for non fleet Klingon and Fed players
But a easy goal for Romulan anti proton users.........A Very unfair test group which pretty much Dumps on Fed and Klingon players and all of us who don't use anti proton builds
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Yeah, I know. Advanced is leveling content. However, Cryptic has never been that great at balance, in PVP or PVE. Started with PVE with the BoPs in Closed Beta and continues in now "advanced", nerfbat swinging on defenses at the F2P NGE while adding to DPS with the store - creating "vapeing" in PVP, etc etc etc.
Not to mention that the engine just does not keep up while your trying to play 3 secs in front of the screen, hitting keybinds that the query throws out, and God help the mouse "clickers". So to help this problems, add more NPCs/annimations/powers/toolbars/1 hit kills, etc and slow things down even more so the server says your dead but it just doesn't quite hit the screen for some secs after. No wonder why no1 wants to Q-up any longer, for PVP or PVE.
Was the easy mode of development just writing a script to add 70-100% more hitpoints/DPS to every NPC at delta and this is easy mode as well, change 1 code line for optionals and call it good. What should be done is what they suggested as the extreme possibility and that's to re-tune EVERY STF instance for difficulty and engine problems and actually make QA do it's job. Or......., *gasp*, put the changes on TC and actually listen to the people who play and test these things. Using metrics as your sole request for change ends up as you get the idea when everyone in the game has either stopped using the content or moved on to another MMO.
It's a subjective term and one that has been at the core of countless flamewars across countless forums for both games and gaming sites over the years.
Some people see it as everything that can be done at max level.
Some people see it as only the most difficult/current content.
Advanced would be endgame for the first folks.
Advanced wouldn't be endgame for the second folks.
Like many things, a newer generation came along and decided to redefine things...and the entertainment of those arguments spreads across the internet like a wildfire - amongst all the other such arguments.
edit: One could potentially make the argument that Advanced isn't technically endgame because the player does not need to be 60, they are just scaled to 60. Yet one could potentially make the argument that because they are scaled to 60 they are technically 60. Fun stuff there, yeah?