Ah, no my friend, you couldn't. Missions scale to whatever your level is. Advanced scales your level to 60.
You and I haven't really debated since the PVP forums, the NGE at F2P, and defenses nerf(s). Good times, we should do it again sometime.
The main problem, as I see it, is the inclusion of the crafting mats as the only way to obtain in "advanced". Until you reach and complete these successfully, the game assumes, or should assume, that ALL of your equipment is Mk 12 since that's all you get otherwise, and therefore, "advanced" becomes strictly leveling content. But Cryptic never really paid much attention to "balance" in PVP nor PVE
If they provided another way to get ready for advanced, then you might have a point there.
So what? We always had them and always will have them. Fail criteria certainly did not stop them from queuing up simply because of the reason that they haven’t anything to loose.
Fails only hindered me to queue up as often as I would have liked to because those players where in a position to waist my time. If the fails are removed and those players only surface or in a slow match or in a lost optional at most, so nothing lost. I bet a lot like me will jump on that train.
If I’m eager for a challenge I can pug an elite.
If I want smooth sailing I can hide in DPS channels.
If I just want to play for some fun peew peew I can pug advanced without remorse.
If normal mode pve would not be as insultingly easy as it is I think this concept would have worked the past moths as well but it didn’t.
Now it will and that’s a good change.
1: Yes, elite should be extremely challenging but, we do not yet have an elite for every single mission, now do we?
2: Advanced isn't meant to be smooth sailing, it was supposed to be for experienced and adequately geared player's, not unprepared player's that may or, may not have adequate gear!
3: Normal is a joke in difficulty, yet I still see people who cannot even grasp that difficulty, let alone those doing the same in advanced.
Before he would just go in with all this bad settings and tactics, starting to get his bearing and it fails.
You are correct that people could learn better, but obviously they don't so something new (or rather old) has to be tried out. By not failing mission they have time to learn by watching others and hopefully getting comments from others, which usually do not happen in the fail scenario where most players just got annoyed that they got locked out again and leave.
There will be no sense of accomplishment when one see that one failed every single option and got minimal reward. But it does tell that something need to improve to manage those optionals, hence they learn and hopefully tries harder next time.
As I wrote earlier those that are AFK should be checked and get a failed mission individually.
Failing is a very useful tool in teaching, take it away entirely and, people would be taught virtually nothing!
That is what the fail system was supposed to do but, we have those no matter what you do, either will never learn and/or refuse to learn.
So, these changes do nothing as a learning tool.
Instead it instills false sense of accomplishments, while enabling the leecher's to succeed where the whole afk system & mission failures was a way to help keep it to a minimum.
Now, a huge portion of that system, is being eliminated pretty much!
My personal preference, to be honest and after reading a large portion of this thread, would be to keep options in advanced as optionals, but to have their failure reduce rewards down to what you would expect from normal. Players who routinely fail optionals would quickly discover they get normals down quicker and for the same reward. Players who learned what the optional objectives were and could become reasonably certain of achieving them would enjoy better rewards in advanced settings.
Before I get flamed, yes I know that it would cause grief in the short run. But I think it would improve from there.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
My personal preference, to be honest and after reading a large portion of this thread, would be to keep options in advanced as optionals, but to have their failure reduce rewards down to what you would expect from normal. Players who routinely fail optionals would quickly discover they get normals down quicker and for the same reward. Players who learned what the optional objectives were and could become reasonably certain of achieving them would enjoy better rewards in advanced settings. However, while this feels fair to me and would establish incentive to learn the missions, I doubt this solution would do anything to address the underlying problem of people doing advanced missions while not understanding the strategies needed.
Before I get flamed, yes I know that it would cause grief in the short run. But I think it would improve from there.
But that's the thing, that's part of what they've done...
The first major planned change we want to introduce is that all base rewards earned from a queue are the same across all difficulties. This means that if you earn 5 marks for rescuing 5 friendly NPCs on Normal difficulty then rescuing 5 friendly NPCs on Advanced difficulty will now reward you 5 marks as well (currently you are rewarded more for these actions in Advanced difficulty).
So Step 1 is nerf the rewards. Right off the back, the rewards for Advanced have been nerfed.
However, we still also want Advanced difficulty PvE queues to reward more than their Normal difficulty counterparts.
To accomplish this, the difference in rewards from the above change will be added to the rewards for completing the optional objectives. This means that if you earn 5 marks for defeating an optional boss enemy on Normal difficulty, defeating that same boss enemy on Advanced difficulty will now reward you 10 marks.
Step 2 was to have the Advanced Optional reward more than the Normal Optional. However, this is meaningless if the Optionals are failed.
You go back to Step 1...where the base rewards have been nerfed.
That's already the plan...to nerf rewards. Folks that were running Advanced fine are going to be earning fewer rewards for doing it.
This brings us to our final major planned change and perhaps the most important Advanced difficulty PvE queues will no longer fail for not completing the mission objectives that had previously been optional on Normal difficulty.
These mission objectives will remain optional for Advanced difficulty and as mentioned in the paragraph above will become a greater source of rewards (to correspond to their increased difficulty to achieve with the increase in enemy level and difficulty scale). This means that even if the optionals are in need of tuning because they are too hard to achieve (which we still pledge to do) that players are not blocked from advancing in their reputations and crafting schools.
I didn't highlight the Reputation part because Cryptic's done an awesome job of making it so nobody has to hit a single queue to do their Reputation stuff. The slowest one is Delta, which will take a two weeks at most to get all the APCs one would need for all the Delta gear. That's DHC, Array, Torp, Console, Deflector, Engine, Shield, and either Singularity or Warp Core. 3 more days if they're Romulan and want both Singularity and Warp Cores to pick up the 5 additional APCs.
And to be honest, the VR mats don't prevent advancing in R&D. One doesn't have to craft a thing to hit 20 in any school...and with them opening it up to three Research Projects per School (heh, I miss when it was five, but three is better than one) that's not going to take as long.
It's just the VR mats. Locked away behind somebody needing to figure out how to do 4-5k DPS to contribute to an Advanced run. But even there, not running Advanced doesn't mean one can't get the mats. It's actually part of the economy there...some folks don't run X, but they run Y - so they sell Y to buy X. Or they just do something else sell stuff to get EC to buy the stuff they want - folks craft STUs, etc, etc, etc...don't have buy Zen to sell that stuff, don't have to farm Dil to get Zen to sell that stuff. There are all sorts of things. And then there's the folks like me that notice from time to time there's something there and just sells it cheap. Almost everything I sell on the Exchange is at least 25% or more cheaper than the lowest price there. Does it get bought up by folks trying to corner the market? Nah, it's rare that I see the same folks buying the stuff...it's just the lucky folks that happen to be looking. And then guess what, I turn around and spend that EC to buy something somebody else is selling.
Needing to have level 15 in something to craft the items requiring the VR mats is blocking advancement more than Advanced queues are...and...somebody can get their boat doing that 4-5k faster than they can get to level 15.
There's nothing to learn in Advanced that's not part of Normal. The Objectives aren't different. It's not that you need to do X in Normal, Y in Advanced, and Z in Elite. As for getting better at the game or improving the build...that never stops. All Advanced and Elite do is set that minimal threshold that hey should you be here for this and there for that.
So it all goes back to that Step 1...nerfing rewards. Now with something like ANRA, it's just that single shot at rewards - cause it's a fixed time queue. What about the queues without a fixed time? Those are going to take longer...bam...the second shot. Not only is it a case of lower rewards but it's earning lower rewards slower. It's just a massive nerf to rewards.
But won't it incentivize folks to play better for the better rewards? Why? Hello? That's what was already there...an incentive to play better for better rewards...it didn't work. If anything this provides an incentive for folks never to bother trying to play better...cause the rewards themselves are just easy to get elsewhere: Dil, EC, Marks. With the nerf to rewards with this, that will be even more the case - unless they go and nerf those as well. The only thing that's the least bit limited is the VR mats - outside of R&D boxes, R&D assistance, and Advanced queues - that's it.
Maybe if they tied the R&D materials to the Optionals...that might be an incentive for folks to try more, eh? Get both Optionals...get the R&D rewards...tada.
Maybe if they tied the R&D materials to the Optionals...that might be an incentive for folks to try more, eh? Get both Optionals...get the R&D rewards...tada.
I like that idea. Remove the Mandatory Objectives and tie the R&D rewards to the Optionals.
Perhaps take a look at tweaking the threshold for the leaver penalty as well so one doesn't find themselves held hostage in a non-timed queue.
I like that idea. Remove the Mandatory Objectives and tie the R&D rewards to the Optionals.
Perhaps take a look at tweaking the threshold for the leaver penalty as well so one doesn't find themselves held hostage in a non-timed queue.
Hell I said this earlier... but they should tie the BNPs to the optionals as well.
If you succeed at the mission... we'll give you marks... the same as if you completed normal... but the BNPs... the crafting boxes... extra marks... are all tied to the optionals.
But then we're back to square 1 with a bunch of people coming into ADvanced trying to be carried for their BNPs... so I think we need to add 1 BNP to Normals for completing ALL the optionals.
So Step 1 is nerf the rewards. Right off the back, the rewards for Advanced have been nerfed.
Step 2 was to have the Advanced Optional reward more than the Normal Optional. However, this is meaningless if the Optionals are failed.
You go back to Step 1...where the base rewards have been nerfed.
That's already the plan...to nerf rewards. Folks that were running Advanced fine are going to be earning fewer rewards for doing it.
I didn't highlight the Reputation part because Cryptic's done an awesome job of making it so nobody has to hit a single queue to do their Reputation stuff. The slowest one is Delta, which will take a two weeks at most to get all the APCs one would need for all the Delta gear. That's DHC, Array, Torp, Console, Deflector, Engine, Shield, and either Singularity or Warp Core. 3 more days if they're Romulan and want both Singularity and Warp Cores to pick up the 5 additional APCs.
And to be honest, the VR mats don't prevent advancing in R&D. One doesn't have to craft a thing to hit 20 in any school...and with them opening it up to three Research Projects per School (heh, I miss when it was five, but three is better than one) that's not going to take as long.
It's just the VR mats. Locked away behind somebody needing to figure out how to do 4-5k DPS to contribute to an Advanced run. But even there, not running Advanced doesn't mean one can't get the mats. It's actually part of the economy there...some folks don't run X, but they run Y - so they sell Y to buy X. Or they just do something else sell stuff to get EC to buy the stuff they want - folks craft STUs, etc, etc, etc...don't have buy Zen to sell that stuff, don't have to farm Dil to get Zen to sell that stuff. There are all sorts of things. And then there's the folks like me that notice from time to time there's something there and just sells it cheap. Almost everything I sell on the Exchange is at least 25% or more cheaper than the lowest price there. Does it get bought up by folks trying to corner the market? Nah, it's rare that I see the same folks buying the stuff...it's just the lucky folks that happen to be looking. And then guess what, I turn around and spend that EC to buy something somebody else is selling.
Needing to have level 15 in something to craft the items requiring the VR mats is blocking advancement more than Advanced queues are...and...somebody can get their boat doing that 4-5k faster than they can get to level 15.
There's nothing to learn in Advanced that's not part of Normal. The Objectives aren't different. It's not that you need to do X in Normal, Y in Advanced, and Z in Elite. As for getting better at the game or improving the build...that never stops. All Advanced and Elite do is set that minimal threshold that hey should you be here for this and there for that.
So it all goes back to that Step 1...nerfing rewards. Now with something like ANRA, it's just that single shot at rewards - cause it's a fixed time queue. What about the queues without a fixed time? Those are going to take longer...bam...the second shot. Not only is it a case of lower rewards but it's earning lower rewards slower. It's just a massive nerf to rewards.
But won't it incentivize folks to play better for the better rewards? Why? Hello? That's what was already there...an incentive to play better for better rewards...it didn't work. If anything this provides an incentive for folks never to bother trying to play better...cause the rewards themselves are just easy to get elsewhere: Dil, EC, Marks. With the nerf to rewards with this, that will be even more the case - unless they go and nerf those as well. The only thing that's the least bit limited is the VR mats - outside of R&D boxes, R&D assistance, and Advanced queues - that's it.
Maybe if they tied the R&D materials to the Optionals...that might be an incentive for folks to try more, eh? Get both Optionals...get the R&D rewards...tada.
Hell I said this earlier... but they should tie the BNPs to the optionals as well.
If you succeed at the mission... we'll give you marks... the same as if you completed normal... but the BNPs... the crafting boxes... extra marks... are all tied to the optionals.
But then we're back to square 1 with a bunch of people coming into ADvanced trying to be carried for their BNPs... so I think we need to add 1 BNP to Normals for completing ALL the optionals.
I could go for it, as long as it!
1: Keeps leecher's well under control to some degree
2: Keeps terribad player's, from wanting to enter advanced so much
Otherwise, it isn't accomplishing nothing, but making the game soft on leecher's & terribad player's, to continue being terribad player's and, to leech off of other's.
Failing is a very useful tool in teaching, take it away entirely and, people would be taught virtually nothing!
That is what the fail system was supposed to do but, we have those no matter what you do, either will never learn and/or refuse to learn.
So, these changes do nothing as a learning tool.
Instead it instills false sense of accomplishments, while enabling the leecher's to succeed where the whole afk system & mission failures was a way to help keep it to a minimum.
Now, a huge portion of that system, is being eliminated pretty much!
Once again you only seam to read what you want in my comment so I will repeat myself.
You are correct that people could learn better, but obviously they don't so something new (or rather old) has to be tried out. By not failing mission they have time to learn by watching others and hopefully getting comments from others, which usually do not happen in the fail scenario where most players just got annoyed that they got locked out again and leave.
There will be no sense of accomplishment when one see that one failed every single option and got minimal reward. But it does tell that something need to improve to manage those optionals, hence they learn and hopefully tries harder next time.
As I wrote earlier those that are AFK should be checked and get a failed mission individually.
A test server is supposed to be used to properly test patches before patching anything....
Once again you only seam to read what you want in my comment so I will repeat myself.
Repeating does no good, just like saying they will have time to learn!
If they haven't learned before DR changes, than odds are they will not learn during the changes!
Also, if they haven't learned with plain English instructions, as to what needs to be done, than even the changes won't change anything.
If they don't pay any attention to......well anything nor, pay any attention to other player's [what they are doing and/or, player's giving advise], than again the changes will accomplish nothing towards them getting anywhere at all.
Because making it easier, just shortens the time in mission really.
I mean as it is now, provided a troll doesn't cause the fail, than they should me paying attention to what is going on at almost all times anyways and, if not.
Than they are kind of helping the mission fail, also if they do somehow manage to not fail the mission, than coming in with reallllly low dps, they drag the mission out enough that they should have plenty of time for learning currently.
Ask them, do you know what the actual mission objectives are? Odds are either umm, yes or, maybe, better odds are a ummm no or, simply no answer!
So, without them pretty much even knowing what the objectives are, despite them being plain as day in your face visible, how can you not know what they are?
Mission failed, ask them if they know why it failed? And, you might get some ummm. yeses but, more often than not, it will be ummmm no or, no answer.
Why wouldn't they know why it failed? Are they not paying attention to the objectives listed? Are they not paying attention to the other player's? Are they not paying attention to where the enemies are, where they come from, when they come into play, etc.?
Some yes, will probably finally figure it out and/or, finally maybe listen to advise and, might actually improve in their observation skills but, I don't foresee a whole heck of a lot of them improving IMO.
So, your argument is pretty well moot, as usual!
You can lead a horse to water but, you cannot make him drink, which is how effective I foresee these changes as you say, allowing them to improve!
1: Yes, elite should be extremely challenging but, we do not yet have an elite for every single mission, now do we?
2: Advanced isn't meant to be smooth sailing, it was supposed to be for experienced and adequately geared player's, not unprepared player's that may or, may not have adequate gear!
3: Normal is a joke in difficulty, yet I still see people who cannot even grasp that difficulty, let alone those doing the same in advanced.
1) Ahh no. But should not be a problem because there are a few elite maps around elite player can concentrate on. "Bad" players were constantly told to get their endgame currencies outside advanced contend in areas of the game they obviously did not like to run. Now if elite versions of the maps one prefers arent around, sorry just focus those which have it if interested in an elite reward and be done with it.
2) Its what peeps make out of it. The team sets the difficulty more than the map. If peeps go in advanced with 30k+ builds in a likeminded group they get smooth sailing. If a 30k+ player chooses to pug advanced perhaps he will get the not smooth sailing experience it was meant to be a bit better. I hardly see the fail conditions to have anything to do with that besides that their removal grants a fail save for the competed team members not to waist their time.
3) Totally correct. Unfortunately those who cannot grasp the normal difficulty within a few days (weeks?!) in endgame are a lost cause. Unfortunately they will never ever limit themselves to any difficulty setting. They will queue up for the maps with the rewards they prefer or for those maps which actually pop out of the queue lists. You will encounter them in normal, advanced, elite and nightmare. Was that way in 2012 and will be the case in 2018 for as long as the requirement to queue up are just settled in level. The fail criteria of advances modes did never ever taught them not to re queue. At most it only hinders players who know what they were doing from wasting their time with them.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Optionals will be optional again, and timers for the overall run will only be restrictive enough to prevent AFK, bots, etc. (timers will still be in place for optional rewards).
This should be a help for new players, PUGs, and people grinding for crafting mats.
If only this would have happened several months ago I'd still be playing. I'll admit I am tempted to reinstall... but only tempted.
Repeating does no good, just like saying they will have time to learn!
If they haven't learned before DR changes, than odds are they will not learn during the changes!
Also, if they haven't learned with plain English instructions, as to what needs to be done, than even the changes won't change anything.
If they don't pay any attention to......well anything nor, pay any attention to other player's [what they are doing and/or, player's giving advise], than again the changes will accomplish nothing towards them getting anywhere at all.
Because making it easier, just shortens the time in mission really.
I mean as it is now, provided a troll doesn't cause the fail, than they should me paying attention to what is going on at almost all times anyways and, if not.
Than they are kind of helping the mission fail, also if they do somehow manage to not fail the mission, than coming in with reallllly low dps, they drag the mission out enough that they should have plenty of time for learning currently.
Ask them, do you know what the actual mission objectives are? Odds are either umm, yes or, maybe, better odds are a ummm no or, simply no answer!
So, without them pretty much even knowing what the objectives are, despite them being plain as day in your face visible, how can you not know what they are?
Mission failed, ask them if they know why it failed? And, you might get some ummm. yeses but, more often than not, it will be ummmm no or, no answer.
Why wouldn't they know why it failed? Are they not paying attention to the objectives listed? Are they not paying attention to the other player's? Are they not paying attention to where the enemies are, where they come from, when they come into play, etc.?
Some yes, will probably finally figure it out and/or, finally maybe listen to advise and, might actually improve in their observation skills but, I don't foresee a whole heck of a lot of them improving IMO.
So, your argument is pretty well moot, as usual!
You can lead a horse to water but, you cannot make him drink, which is how effective I foresee these changes as you say, allowing them to improve!
I disagree.
As being a person still trying to learn some of the mechanics of some of the STF's (I haven't played them all) the fact that a fail occurs and is not explained to me does not help. Currently, in the other STF's if an objective fails, people bug out. SO Right at that point, and no further, will I learn how to deal with this mission. With people leaving, it becomes obvious something was not done right. But with everyone leaving and no converstions occuring, I can't find out what covered or taken care of. Not only that, but if the failure occured when I was waiting to respawn, or occured on a portion of the map not visiable to me, I can't know what went wrong.
Now, if the mission doesn't fail at the objective, I get to see the rest of the content. As the mission continues, people will remark as to what wasn't done to get the objective. And that provides the data that I need to know what I might be able to do to help. If that means being in a different part of the map. Or do better placement of sheilds, mortors or whatever abilities I have. It all matters when the information is there. With fails as part of the mission, no one sticks around to see the rest of the content and to talk about the missed oppurtunity.
Remove fails will help people learn. And I think it will help far more people to learn than your apparent pessimistic viewpoint of the playerbase.
I disagree.
As being a person still trying to learn some of the mechanics of some of the STF's (I haven't played them all) the fact that a fail occurs and is not explained to me does not help. Currently, in the other STF's if an objective fails, people bug out. SO Right at that point, and no further, will I learn how to deal with this mission. With people leaving, it becomes obvious something was not done right. But with everyone leaving and no converstions occuring, I can't find out what covered or taken care of. Not only that, but if the failure occured when I was waiting to respawn, or occured on a portion of the map not visiable to me, I can't know what went wrong.
Now, if the mission doesn't fail at the objective, I get to see the rest of the content. As the mission continues, people will remark as to what wasn't done to get the objective. And that provides the data that I need to know what I might be able to do to help. If that means being in a different part of the map. Or do better placement of sheilds, mortors or whatever abilities I have. It all matters when the information is there. With fails as part of the mission, no one sticks around to see the rest of the content and to talk about the missed oppurtunity.
Remove fails will help people learn. And I think it will help far more people to learn than your apparent pessimistic viewpoint of the playerbase.
Do Ground queues not tell you why they failed like Space queues do?
edit: I honestly don't know what info Ground gives, by the way, last Ground queue I did a few times was BHA/BHE and well, even the pug runs of that went so smoothly (this was back when BHE was considered by some the easiest thing to do in the game - before they addressed the mobs) that I couldn't even guess at this point what the actual objectives were. Before that...er...like three years ago I accidentally joined one (one of those Zone transition things meaning to click on another dialogue box but that was there instead oopsie things) and I bailed.
Do Ground queues not tell you why they failed like Space queues do?
Both lack certain details. And I have seen in both ground and space where I respawn and all I get to see is that the mission failed but no statement as to why it failed.
Both lack certain details. And I have seen in both ground and space where I respawn and all I get to see is that the mission failed but no statement as to why it failed.
Space will normally show the failed objective in red in the window with the various objectives. While there may be differences in time or amount of things that can happen, it's going to be the same underlying objective as normal and it tells you that difference in the objective or what is required. Don't allow X, do Y in Z time, etc, etc, etc. There are usually also the various Ops dialogues stating what needs to be done or not done.
So we know...take out the Borg. Take out the Transformers to take out the Gateway. Take out the Generators to take out the Transformers to take out the Gateway. Don't let the Borg repair the Transformer.
Now, they could definitely do a better job of that particular objective in letting folks know it's the Nanites they need to prevent getting to the Transformer. But with that objective failing, turning red, it would be obvious it happened because the Nanites reached the Transformer.
Those are from ISN.
Moving to ISA...what changes? The Optional Objective becomes a Mandatory Objective. Some of the NPCs are changed, but it is still Nanites (Spheres instead of Probes) coming to repair the Transformer. Having played ISN, the player would know that the Nanites appear after a Generator is dropped. That led to folks doing the 10% thing to make sure they had enough time to get the Transformer down before the Nanites got there...Probe or Sphere.
Playing through Normal, a person would pick up various things...experience...having learned what to do in Normal that would prepare them for Advanced. The difference would be in their ability to deal damage and take damage from Advanced foes...not something that needs to be learned from doing an ISA.
ISN and the rest of the game is homework. ISA is the test based on having done that homework.
Most Space queues work just like that...
...that's why I asked about Ground, if it worked different than that.
Remove fails will help people learn. And I think it will help far more people to learn than your
apparent pessimistic viewpoint of the playerbase.
Since we are talking about advance and not Normal, removing fail wont help people learn. Because it is advance STF where people are suppose to be past learning the STF.
When a player chooses to go to an advance STF regardless if it is private or PuG, they are expected to know what they are doing, expected to have reading comprehension, expect they are in a team mission.
The playerbase is diverse. Those who want to nerf the advance missions are just part of the playerbase. And those who want to nerf advance missions are part of a very specific and unique playerbase who happens to whine a lot in the forums.
Space will normally show the failed objective in red in the window with the various objectives. While there may be differences in time or amount of things that can happen, it's going to be the same underlying objective as normal and it tells you that difference in the objective or what is required. Don't allow X, do Y in Z time, etc, etc, etc. There are usually also the various Ops dialogues stating what needs to be done or not done.
And usually I would agree.
But there have been some missions where it's on a timer, and I look at that timer go from 3 minutes left to fail. And no Information as to why. And no apparent lag on my end. My ship never stopped moving, jumped suddenly backwards or any other lag effects that I have seen before.
There are mysteries that would easily be solved if I ould at least have someone to talk to after the fail occur to determine what exactly failed us.
There are others that I know what's going on, but I can't be in two places at once. It would be nice to know if I somehow missed something on my side, or was it the other guy. But I will never know since no one sticks arounds to figure it out.
Since we are talking about advance and not Normal, removing fail wont help people learn. Because it is advance STF where people are suppose to be past learning the STF.
When a player chooses to go to an advance STF regardless if it is private or PuG, they are expected to know what they are doing, expected to have reading comprehension, expect they are in a team mission.
The playerbase is diverse. Those who want to nerf the advance missions are just part of the playerbase. And those who want to nerf advance missions are part of a very specific and unique playerbase who happens to whine a lot in the forums.
I disagree.
I have never learned anything about the optional mechanics from normals of a STF because no one seems to do them. Or at least, I never seem to be in PUG's that does them. The only way I learn anything about an advance STF is by going into an Advanced STF and trying it out. Normally, I can follow one of the other ships/guys around and figure out what needs to be done (Mostly I try to target what they target and try to keep them alive with any skills that will help). But normals never seem to get me the level of knowledge that I need to go do Advance.
Sometimes that knowledge is the very fact that in Normal my gear was good enough, but is not good enough in Advanced because of the changes. And sometimes it's just the knowledge that my particular arrangement of skills and traits was not quite the right combination for that particular STF.
STF's, as they are set up now, are not about progression. There is nothing about the move from Normal to Advance that will really prepare you for the changes that Advance places upon your characters.
You can only learn about Advance's needs and fails from Advance.
And until they revamp the STF's into a progression based system, there is no way that is going to change.
But there have been some missions where it's on a timer, and I look at that timer go from 3 minutes left to fail. And no Information as to why. And no apparent lag on my end. My ship never stopped moving, jumped suddenly backwards or any other lag effects that I have seen before.
There are mysteries that would easily be solved if I ould at least have someone to talk to after the fail occur to determine what exactly failed us.
There are others that I know what's going on, but I can't be in two places at once. It would be nice to know if I somehow missed something on my side, or was it the other guy. But I will never know since no one sticks arounds to figure it out.
Pay more attention to your surroundings, it is why we have the ability to move the camera, from a birds eye view and, the shown in red fail plainly shows what went wrong, despite who caused it.
I disagree.
As being a person still trying to learn some of the mechanics of some of the STF's (I haven't played them all) the fact that a fail occurs and is not explained to me does not help. Currently, in the other STF's if an objective fails, people bug out. SO Right at that point, and no further, will I learn how to deal with this mission. With people leaving, it becomes obvious something was not done right. But with everyone leaving and no converstions occuring, I can't find out what covered or taken care of. Not only that, but if the failure occured when I was waiting to respawn, or occured on a portion of the map not visiable to me, I can't know what went wrong.
Now, if the mission doesn't fail at the objective, I get to see the rest of the content. As the mission continues, people will remark as to what wasn't done to get the objective. And that provides the data that I need to know what I might be able to do to help. If that means being in a different part of the map. Or do better placement of sheilds, mortors or whatever abilities I have. It all matters when the information is there. With fails as part of the mission, no one sticks around to see the rest of the content and to talk about the missed oppurtunity.
Remove fails will help people learn. And I think it will help far more people to learn than your apparent pessimistic viewpoint of the playerbase.
Removing fails doesn't help, because if they cannot learn from normal which pretty much has no fails, than move into advanced which does and, has the exact same strategy to a 99% as normal, than they won't ever learn apparently on their own.
The only difference between normal and advanced, is more enemies, enemies are tougher and, what was optional in normal, is now mandatory with an additional optional added, that is not mandatory.
Space will normally show the failed objective in red in the window with the various objectives. While there may be differences in time or amount of things that can happen, it's going to be the same underlying objective as normal and it tells you that difference in the objective or what is required. Don't allow X, do Y in Z time, etc, etc, etc. There are usually also the various Ops dialogues stating what needs to be done or not done.
So we know...take out the Borg. Take out the Transformers to take out the Gateway. Take out the Generators to take out the Transformers to take out the Gateway. Don't let the Borg repair the Transformer.
Now, they could definitely do a better job of that particular objective in letting folks know it's the Nanites they need to prevent getting to the Transformer. But with that objective failing, turning red, it would be obvious it happened because the Nanites reached the Transformer.
Those are from ISN.
Moving to ISA...what changes? The Optional Objective becomes a Mandatory Objective. Some of the NPCs are changed, but it is still Nanites (Spheres instead of Probes) coming to repair the Transformer. Having played ISN, the player would know that the Nanites appear after a Generator is dropped. That led to folks doing the 10% thing to make sure they had enough time to get the Transformer down before the Nanites got there...Probe or Sphere.
Playing through Normal, a person would pick up various things...experience...having learned what to do in Normal that would prepare them for Advanced. The difference would be in their ability to deal damage and take damage from Advanced foes...not something that needs to be learned from doing an ISA.
ISN and the rest of the game is homework. ISA is the test based on having done that homework.
Most Space queues work just like that...
...that's why I asked about Ground, if it worked different than that.
For those who cannot grasp the concept, anything that doesn't say "optional", is mandatory in advanced and, whether you and/or your teammates cannot achieve this simple task, than you all fail, simple as that!!!
Sometimes that knowledge is the very fact that in Normal my gear was good enough, but is not good enough in Advanced because of the changes. And sometimes it's just the knowledge that my particular arrangement of skills and traits was not quite the right combination for that particular STF.
Finishing advance or normal has nothing to do with gears. Anyone can have common stuff and finish advance.
STF's, as they are set up now, are not about progression. There is nothing about the move from Normal to Advance that will really prepare you for the changes that Advance places upon your characters.
You can only learn about Advance's needs and fails from Advance.
And until they revamp the STF's into a progression based system, there is no way that is going to change.
That is right people with the same mentality as you wont learn unless they fail. Remove the objectives and failures, you and the same playerbase as you wont learn. Because you just admitted you never learn in normal because of choice by not following the instructions nor reading the objectives.
You admitted it as well that you just follow other players around rather than doing it yourself. So the problem seems to be the playerbase who just follows around just like you. Changing the the mechanics wont help players like you since you dont even follow instructions or objectives.
I have never learned anything about the optional mechanics from normals of a STF because no one seems to do them. Or at least, I never seem to be in PUG's that does them. The only way I learn anything about an advance STF is by going into an Advanced STF and trying it out. Normally, I can follow one of the other ships/guys around and figure out what needs to be done (Mostly I try to target what they target and try to keep them alive with any skills that will help). But normals never seem to get me the level of knowledge that I need to go do Advance.
Finishing advance or normal has nothing to do with gears. Anyone can have common stuff and finish advance.
That is right people with the same mentality as you wont learn unless they fail. Remove the objectives and failures, you and the same playerbase as you wont learn. Because you just admitted you never learn in normal because of choice by not following the instructions nor reading the objectives.
You admitted it as well that you just follow other players around rather than doing it yourself. So the problem seems to be the playerbase who just follows around just like you. Changing the the mechanics wont help players like you since you dont even follow instructions or objectives.
Actually, Gear does make a difference. It changes my survivability quite alot in some cases.
And I never said I learned only from failing. I learn from doing.
I admitted that I didn't learn from Normals because no one was trying to do the optionals in normal. How can I learn to complete an optional designed to be completed by a team when I am doing it alone?
And I follow people around to specifically find out what order they choose thier targets are or what people are considering as more important than another thing. Sometimes I follow a specific person just because I know my DPS is not on par with the best and so stick close to someone who appears to be killing things quickly just to help them stay alive.
And I do read the requirements. But like for the New Borg STF, I can't be at all three spots. And I can't pay attention to all three locations. SO I don't know what they are doing over there. Now if they communicate with me, I will know if they are doing well are need help. And if I see that where I am with a guy that is doing well, I will go to the other spots to help out.
But if it shows that we got 5, and I know that I released 5 on my own, why are the others guys not able to get it done? Why was there a failure? And knowing why they couldn't get it done opens the way to making better plans for the next time. That is information that doesn't get displayed. And that is information you can't get if people just leave.
I find that people are more talkative during a battle about what's going right or wrong, than after battle.
Do not assume that I am not capable of reading, comprehending or thinking. And do not assume that I can complete an STF all on my own.
Treat all with respect. And try to see things from a perspective that is not yours.
Like I said before, the STF's are not designed as progressive content. They are not designed to teach how to do things for the next step up. And they are not currently designed to encourage people to actually stick around and talk. Timers do a lot towards keeping PUG's from doing any sort of planning before starting the mission. And keeping timers in will only continue to hurt that aspect.
And the only reason why I even try Advanced queues is because I want certain crafting mats. SO I only run those stf's that give me the mats I want. Which means that there are many STF's that I will probably never run because there is no reason to do them.
If I could get the mats from some other content (And not from Exchange, that is not content) then I would only do the STF's that I I have fun in.
Actually, Gear does make a difference. It changes my survivability quite alot in some cases.
And I never said I learned only from failing. I learn from doing.
I admitted that I didn't learn from Normals because no one was trying to do the optionals in normal. How can I learn to complete an optional designed to be completed by a team when I am doing it alone?
And I follow people around to specifically find out what order they choose thier targets are or what people are considering as more important than another thing. Sometimes I follow a specific person just because I know my DPS is not on par with the best and so stick close to someone who appears to be killing things quickly just to help them stay alive.
Gear helps a player become more efficient but it aint the requirement. the purpose of this thread is to finish advance. Not to finish advance the most efficient way possible. Which makes my statement true.
And I do read the requirements. But like for the New Borg STF, I can't be at all three spots. And I can't pay attention to all three locations. SO I don't know what they are doing over there. Now if they communicate with me, I will know if they are doing well are need help. And if I see that where I am with a guy that is doing well, I will go to the other spots to help out.
But if it shows that we got 5, and I know that I released 5 on my own, why are the others guys not able to get it done? Why was there a failure? And knowing why they couldn't get it done opens the way to making better plans for the next time. That is information that doesn't get displayed. And that is information you can't get if people just leave.
I find that people are more talkative during a battle about what's going right or wrong, than after battle.
Do not assume that I am not capable of reading, comprehending or thinking. And do not assume that I can complete an STF all on my own.
Treat all with respect. And try to see things from a perspective that is not yours.
Like I said before, the STF's are not designed as progressive content. They are not designed to teach how to do things for the next step up. And they are not currently designed to encourage people to actually stick around and talk. Timers do a lot towards keeping PUG's from doing any sort of planning before starting the mission. And keeping timers in will only continue to hurt that aspect.
And the only reason why I even try Advanced queues is because I want certain crafting mats. SO I only run those stf's that give me the mats I want. Which means that there are many STF's that I will probably never run because there is no reason to do them.
If I could get the mats from some other content (And not from Exchange, that is not content) then I would only do the STF's that I I have fun in.
I merely quoted what you said that you blindly follow players around which isnt a representation of following requirements.
Blindly following players around isnt a justification to nerf advance missions.
And the only reason why I even try Advanced queues is because I want certain crafting mats. SO I only run those stf's that give me the mats I want. Which means that there are many STF's that I will probably never run because there is no reason to do them.
If I could get the mats from some other content (And not from Exchange, that is not content) then I would only do the STF's that I I have fun in.
Hrmmm, even though the Exchange would not be content...wouldn't it be a case of running content, so as to have things to sell to be able to buy things wanted off the Exchange?
It's kind of a common thing out there...gets into there being a functioning game economy of sorts. Some folks do X, some folks do Y, some folks have A, some folks have B...and...voila.
The R&D VR mats appear to be the big driving force behind the push to change Advanced. Thing is, if one compares where the prices of the mats on the Exchange are now compared to a couple of months ago - start of the year - around DR and before...etc, etc, etc...
Fewer boxes being opened and thus fewer R&D/mini R&D packs being opened, eh?
I say that, cause I never saw any growth on the public side for ANRA...if anything, it got more scarce; and I mainly saw negative feedback about it. Odd on one hand that Cryptic is still going forth with the other Advanced changes, but not really odd given so much of what they do coming off as trolling at times...
Making it easier...nerfing the rewards in the process...just meh.
No doubt this is an extremely casual game (and that's not saying that extremely casual is a horrid thing and we need to grab the pitchforks, it's just what it is)...and thus all sorts of changes since the F2P conversion have catered to that - the Advanced changes will just be another of those. Much like they're killing off PvP, they're going to kill off a segment of the playerbase with this as well...but their bread and butter is obviously fine with doing that.
Hrmmm, even though the Exchange would not be content...wouldn't it be a case of running content, so as to have things to sell to be able to buy things wanted off the Exchange?
It's kind of a common thing out there...gets into there being a functioning game economy of sorts. Some folks do X, some folks do Y, some folks have A, some folks have B...and...voila.
The R&D VR mats appear to be the big driving force behind the push to change Advanced. Thing is, if one compares where the prices of the mats on the Exchange are now compared to a couple of months ago - start of the year - around DR and before...etc, etc, etc...
Fewer boxes being opened and thus fewer R&D/mini R&D packs being opened, eh?
I say that, cause I never saw any growth on the public side for ANRA...if anything, it got more scarce; and I mainly saw negative feedback about it. Odd on one hand that Cryptic is still going forth with the other Advanced changes, but not really odd given so much of what they do coming off as trolling at times...
Making it easier...nerfing the rewards in the process...just meh.
No doubt this is an extremely casual game (and that's not saying that extremely casual is a horrid thing and we need to grab the pitchforks, it's just what it is)...and thus all sorts of changes since the F2P conversion have catered to that - the Advanced changes will just be another of those. Much like they're killing off PvP, they're going to kill off a segment of the playerbase with this as well...but their bread and butter is obviously fine with doing that.
Exchange, and player based economies in all games, are content for some people, I guess. But not what I intend for the term. Which is why I put that blurb in there. You are correct that it is a case of running content to put things on the auction house. But all that does is support the concept of buying your way to better gear, and not working your way to better gear.
For me, properly done presgression content would mean that all lower level content prepares and gears you to take on the next level of content. For Star Trek Online, that means that Normals should prep you for Advanced. And Advanced should prep you for Elite.
Having timers does not promote strategizing, because you can't take the time to plan. The timers themeselves make it imperative that you get start to complete in time. Removing timers, or making it so that the timers don't end the experiance, means that you can take the time to plan, and refine the plan on subsequent runs. Something that is sorely needed in PUG content as every one needs the time to talk out who is going to do what and where and when. And to find out who has the skill/gear/reflexes to get it done.
As for the resources, since I am not Exchange enthusiast, nor an person who focuses on EC making, the option to buy the VR's that I need is not really an option. But that means that the only other viable options are to spend Zen/Real Money (Not an option agreeable to the wife) and running the STF's that provide the missing resources.
If there was other ways to consistantly get the resources at some reasonable pace were available, I would be doing it. But there isn't. And by the very lack of Options, forces us less than optimized players to run those particular STF's.
Most of the negative feedback on ANRA has more to do with the randomness of the ships spawns, which can keep you from completing the optionals, than from people playing it. Any more, when people run it, they look at the initial spawns, and those don't equal 10, they don't even try to complete the optionals. The RNG factor really kills the chance to complete the optionals than the players.
Gear helps a player become more efficient but it aint the requirement. the purpose of this thread is to finish advance. Not to finish advance the most efficient way possible. Which makes my statement true.
I merely quoted what you said that you blindly follow players around which isnt a representation of following requirements.
Blindly following players around isnt a justification to nerf advance missions.
Being more efficient at killing is necessary to completing objectives that are timed. Which is at odds to what you are saying.
No where in my quote did I say that I "blindly" followed someone. Just because I didn't state a set of criteria on how I chose a person to follow, did not mean there were not criteria.
Following blindly could very well teach you the wrong thing to do. And I don't advocate blindly following people around. But using some logical thought. Usually, for me, I chose someone who looked like they were doing the objects as they appeared in my screen. But that doesn't always mean that they are doing it right, or that my understanding is correct. It's more of a best guess, which gets refined on every run through it till I am positive about what it takes to get it done. After that I look for those who seem to follow the strategy that I think works and go from there. Always refining my knowledge, as best as I can on each subsequent run.
But there always reach a point where the additional runs don't help me refine, because I need the data that the other players can provide to complete the picture of what is going.
And that's what doesn't happen when there is just fails and warp outs.
In ANRA, my experiance in running it has reached the point that I know the optionals will not be accomplished if a certain number of points ships are present at the start of the timer. I have now devised ideas on how to stack that to our advantage and communicate it out to the others. And if every one follows the plan, we can get the optinals. But even that plan is controlled by RNG, for depends still on the right ships being generated. If that happens, no plan will succeed.
There are STF's that I don't run any more because I have to many of the VR resource it grants. I don't need any more of them and so devote my attention to other STF's that I didn't run because they have the resources I need. If the mats would get removed from the STF's, or another methoed was provided to get the mats reliably, then you should see a decrease of people running unprepared for the Advanced STF's because they can get what they need elsewhere.
I will also say that there are STF's that I just don't enjoy and so just don't do well in them. They're just not my cup of tea. But I am forced to run them if I want to get the resources that I need to actually fo what I want to do. That is a design flaw that cryptic can fix, if they so choose to do so.
Exchange, and player based economies in all games, are content for some people, I guess. But not what I intend for the term. Which is why I put that blurb in there. You are correct that it is a case of running content to put things on the auction house. But all that does is support the concept of buying your way to better gear, and not working your way to better gear.
For me, properly done presgression content would mean that all lower level content prepares and gears you to take on the next level of content. For Star Trek Online, that means that Normals should prep you for Advanced. And Advanced should prep you for Elite.
Having timers does not promote strategizing, because you can't take the time to plan. The timers themeselves make it imperative that you get start to complete in time. Removing timers, or making it so that the timers don't end the experiance, means that you can take the time to plan, and refine the plan on subsequent runs. Something that is sorely needed in PUG content as every one needs the time to talk out who is going to do what and where and when. And to find out who has the skill/gear/reflexes to get it done.
As for the resources, since I am not Exchange enthusiast, nor an person who focuses on EC making, the option to buy the VR's that I need is not really an option. But that means that the only other viable options are to spend Zen/Real Money (Not an option agreeable to the wife) and running the STF's that provide the missing resources.
If there was other ways to consistantly get the resources at some reasonable pace were available, I would be doing it. But there isn't. And by the very lack of Options, forces us less than optimized players to run those particular STF's.
Most of the negative feedback on ANRA has more to do with the randomness of the ships spawns, which can keep you from completing the optionals, than from people playing it. Any more, when people run it, they look at the initial spawns, and those don't equal 10, they don't even try to complete the optionals. The RNG factor really kills the chance to complete the optionals than the players.
It basically does, at least for those who can grasp the concept of game strategies and, quick adaptation in games, as for those who cannot.
Than they need obviously instruction via a human source, because they cannot seem to do it on their own apparently but, it has always been available and, has done little - nothing to resolve the matter.
Removing the timers, just means you can take mins - hours to do a mission and, doesn't better promote team work, since team work has never really been needed until such timers were put into place.
Before DR, many people could jokingly complete elites no matter how crappy of a player they are, now it shows just how crappy players can be and, makes them either deal with it and/or, complain it is to difficult for them.
PUGS are usually always a source of bad - good players, it's just now we more of the bad players that thought they were good in the past and, many actually good players moving away from PUG groups, leaving us with the mess we have currently.
Given instructions by other players has done nothing to change that, having multitudes of resources available, has done nothing to change this, even if Cryptic put in tutorials to literally lead them by the hand, would undoubtedly do little - nothing to change the problem.
The problem will only change, when those who are the root cause of the problem, decide to change and, nothing anyone else can do really will change this.
It basically does, at least for those who can grasp the concept of game strategies and, quick adaptation in games, as for those who cannot. Than they need obviously instruction via a human source, because they cannot seem to do it on their own apparently.
Removing the timers, just means you can take mins - hours to do a mission and, doesn't better promote team work, since team work has never really been needed until such timers were put into place.
Before DR, many people could jokingly complete elites no matter how crappy of a player they are, now it shows just how crappy players can be and, makes them either deal with it and/or, complain it is to difficult for them.
PUGS are usually always a source of bad - good players, it's just now we more of the bad players that thought they were good in the past and, many actually good players moving away from PUG groups, leaving us with the mess we have currently.
Given instructions by other players has done nothing to change that, having multitudes of resources available, has done nothing to change this, even if Cryptic put in tutorials to literally lead them by the hand, would undoubtedly do little - nothing to change the problem.
The problem will only change, when those who are the root cause of the problem, decide to change and, nothing anyone else can do really will change this.
Hmm....
In the other MMO's that I play, PUGS get better as the particular content ages. They get better because people take time to talk and strategize before starting each section of the content. They also get better, because from the runs they get the better gear that helps complete the current content better. This is in MMO's that have progression for their formats for queued content.
Have timers limits or eliminates that strategizing time in PUGS. Pre-mades have all the time in the world to strategze before they queue the content. Fails that end the content does not promote team coopoeration and communication. Having no Timers and no fails that end content has always lent to more people taking thier time to talk, make plans and go at the content in a methodical manner that allows for everyone to succeed. And the get the loot. Other MMO's use this model effectively and still create content that is hard, and thought provoking. This is where I want to see STF's to go. To methods and process that promote team effort, cooperation and communication with out feeling like it will limit the final payout on loot. This is all I want.
They get better because people take time to talk and strategize before starting each section of the content.
Not everybody speaks English - not everybody that does speak English speaks enough to do that.
It's likely one of the additional reasons why the objectives in much of the content is laid out the way it is...why most of the objectives are so simple...and why they carry over the way they do in moving from Normal to Advanced to Elite.
You could end up in a pug with five people where they literally have no way to communicate...cause they all speak different languages.
So the objectives are set that no communication is needed...and...that's pretty much what we have.
Not everybody speaks English - not everybody that does speak English speaks enough to do that.
It's likely one of the additional reasons why the objectives in much of the content is laid out the way it is...why most of the objectives are so simple...and why they carry over the way they do in moving from Normal to Advanced to Elite.
You could end up in a pug with five people where they literally have no way to communicate...cause they all speak different languages.
So the objectives are set that no communication is needed...and...that's pretty much what we have.
Yeah, if you want to work on the limited communication problem, putting in timers is not going to help that. Putting in fails will not help either. No failure conditions will allow people to work out some level of communication, maybe with emotes or other clever actions like that, to get people to concentrate and focus on certain portions of the content.
Again, the timers will eliminate PUG's from working out ways to overcome those barriers and just have the group going in willy nilly and failing. And since the content has cooldowns, this will more likely frustrate people and cause ire and rage, than not.
Comments
You and I haven't really debated since the PVP forums, the NGE at F2P, and defenses nerf(s). Good times, we should do it again sometime.
The main problem, as I see it, is the inclusion of the crafting mats as the only way to obtain in "advanced". Until you reach and complete these successfully, the game assumes, or should assume, that ALL of your equipment is Mk 12 since that's all you get otherwise, and therefore, "advanced" becomes strictly leveling content. But Cryptic never really paid much attention to "balance" in PVP nor PVE
If they provided another way to get ready for advanced, then you might have a point there.
1: Yes, elite should be extremely challenging but, we do not yet have an elite for every single mission, now do we?
2: Advanced isn't meant to be smooth sailing, it was supposed to be for experienced and adequately geared player's, not unprepared player's that may or, may not have adequate gear!
3: Normal is a joke in difficulty, yet I still see people who cannot even grasp that difficulty, let alone those doing the same in advanced.
Failing is a very useful tool in teaching, take it away entirely and, people would be taught virtually nothing!
That is what the fail system was supposed to do but, we have those no matter what you do, either will never learn and/or refuse to learn.
So, these changes do nothing as a learning tool.
Instead it instills false sense of accomplishments, while enabling the leecher's to succeed where the whole afk system & mission failures was a way to help keep it to a minimum.
Now, a huge portion of that system, is being eliminated pretty much!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Before I get flamed, yes I know that it would cause grief in the short run. But I think it would improve from there.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
But that's the thing, that's part of what they've done...
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/9111543-advanced-difficulty-pve-queue-changes
So Step 1 is nerf the rewards. Right off the back, the rewards for Advanced have been nerfed.
Step 2 was to have the Advanced Optional reward more than the Normal Optional. However, this is meaningless if the Optionals are failed.
You go back to Step 1...where the base rewards have been nerfed.
That's already the plan...to nerf rewards. Folks that were running Advanced fine are going to be earning fewer rewards for doing it.
I didn't highlight the Reputation part because Cryptic's done an awesome job of making it so nobody has to hit a single queue to do their Reputation stuff. The slowest one is Delta, which will take a two weeks at most to get all the APCs one would need for all the Delta gear. That's DHC, Array, Torp, Console, Deflector, Engine, Shield, and either Singularity or Warp Core. 3 more days if they're Romulan and want both Singularity and Warp Cores to pick up the 5 additional APCs.
And to be honest, the VR mats don't prevent advancing in R&D. One doesn't have to craft a thing to hit 20 in any school...and with them opening it up to three Research Projects per School (heh, I miss when it was five, but three is better than one) that's not going to take as long.
It's just the VR mats. Locked away behind somebody needing to figure out how to do 4-5k DPS to contribute to an Advanced run. But even there, not running Advanced doesn't mean one can't get the mats. It's actually part of the economy there...some folks don't run X, but they run Y - so they sell Y to buy X. Or they just do something else sell stuff to get EC to buy the stuff they want - folks craft STUs, etc, etc, etc...don't have buy Zen to sell that stuff, don't have to farm Dil to get Zen to sell that stuff. There are all sorts of things. And then there's the folks like me that notice from time to time there's something there and just sells it cheap. Almost everything I sell on the Exchange is at least 25% or more cheaper than the lowest price there. Does it get bought up by folks trying to corner the market? Nah, it's rare that I see the same folks buying the stuff...it's just the lucky folks that happen to be looking. And then guess what, I turn around and spend that EC to buy something somebody else is selling.
Needing to have level 15 in something to craft the items requiring the VR mats is blocking advancement more than Advanced queues are...and...somebody can get their boat doing that 4-5k faster than they can get to level 15.
There's nothing to learn in Advanced that's not part of Normal. The Objectives aren't different. It's not that you need to do X in Normal, Y in Advanced, and Z in Elite. As for getting better at the game or improving the build...that never stops. All Advanced and Elite do is set that minimal threshold that hey should you be here for this and there for that.
So it all goes back to that Step 1...nerfing rewards. Now with something like ANRA, it's just that single shot at rewards - cause it's a fixed time queue. What about the queues without a fixed time? Those are going to take longer...bam...the second shot. Not only is it a case of lower rewards but it's earning lower rewards slower. It's just a massive nerf to rewards.
But won't it incentivize folks to play better for the better rewards? Why? Hello? That's what was already there...an incentive to play better for better rewards...it didn't work. If anything this provides an incentive for folks never to bother trying to play better...cause the rewards themselves are just easy to get elsewhere: Dil, EC, Marks. With the nerf to rewards with this, that will be even more the case - unless they go and nerf those as well. The only thing that's the least bit limited is the VR mats - outside of R&D boxes, R&D assistance, and Advanced queues - that's it.
Maybe if they tied the R&D materials to the Optionals...that might be an incentive for folks to try more, eh? Get both Optionals...get the R&D rewards...tada.
I like that idea. Remove the Mandatory Objectives and tie the R&D rewards to the Optionals.
Perhaps take a look at tweaking the threshold for the leaver penalty as well so one doesn't find themselves held hostage in a non-timed queue.
Hell I said this earlier... but they should tie the BNPs to the optionals as well.
If you succeed at the mission... we'll give you marks... the same as if you completed normal... but the BNPs... the crafting boxes... extra marks... are all tied to the optionals.
But then we're back to square 1 with a bunch of people coming into ADvanced trying to be carried for their BNPs... so I think we need to add 1 BNP to Normals for completing ALL the optionals.
Virus, what in the world are you doing, commenting back to yourself, about your own post? Lol!
I could go for it, as long as it!
1: Keeps leecher's well under control to some degree
2: Keeps terribad player's, from wanting to enter advanced so much
Otherwise, it isn't accomplishing nothing, but making the game soft on leecher's & terribad player's, to continue being terribad player's and, to leech off of other's.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Maybe we should check for a really bad goatee... it could be a Virus from the Mirror Universe.
Once again you only seam to read what you want in my comment so I will repeat myself.
A test server is supposed to be used to properly test patches before patching anything....
Repeating does no good, just like saying they will have time to learn!
If they haven't learned before DR changes, than odds are they will not learn during the changes!
Also, if they haven't learned with plain English instructions, as to what needs to be done, than even the changes won't change anything.
If they don't pay any attention to......well anything nor, pay any attention to other player's [what they are doing and/or, player's giving advise], than again the changes will accomplish nothing towards them getting anywhere at all.
Because making it easier, just shortens the time in mission really.
I mean as it is now, provided a troll doesn't cause the fail, than they should me paying attention to what is going on at almost all times anyways and, if not.
Than they are kind of helping the mission fail, also if they do somehow manage to not fail the mission, than coming in with reallllly low dps, they drag the mission out enough that they should have plenty of time for learning currently.
Ask them, do you know what the actual mission objectives are? Odds are either umm, yes or, maybe, better odds are a ummm no or, simply no answer!
So, without them pretty much even knowing what the objectives are, despite them being plain as day in your face visible, how can you not know what they are?
Mission failed, ask them if they know why it failed? And, you might get some ummm. yeses but, more often than not, it will be ummmm no or, no answer.
Why wouldn't they know why it failed? Are they not paying attention to the objectives listed? Are they not paying attention to the other player's? Are they not paying attention to where the enemies are, where they come from, when they come into play, etc.?
Some yes, will probably finally figure it out and/or, finally maybe listen to advise and, might actually improve in their observation skills but, I don't foresee a whole heck of a lot of them improving IMO.
So, your argument is pretty well moot, as usual!
You can lead a horse to water but, you cannot make him drink, which is how effective I foresee these changes as you say, allowing them to improve!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
1) Ahh no. But should not be a problem because there are a few elite maps around elite player can concentrate on. "Bad" players were constantly told to get their endgame currencies outside advanced contend in areas of the game they obviously did not like to run. Now if elite versions of the maps one prefers arent around, sorry just focus those which have it if interested in an elite reward and be done with it.
2) Its what peeps make out of it. The team sets the difficulty more than the map. If peeps go in advanced with 30k+ builds in a likeminded group they get smooth sailing. If a 30k+ player chooses to pug advanced perhaps he will get the not smooth sailing experience it was meant to be a bit better. I hardly see the fail conditions to have anything to do with that besides that their removal grants a fail save for the competed team members not to waist their time.
3) Totally correct. Unfortunately those who cannot grasp the normal difficulty within a few days (weeks?!) in endgame are a lost cause. Unfortunately they will never ever limit themselves to any difficulty setting. They will queue up for the maps with the rewards they prefer or for those maps which actually pop out of the queue lists. You will encounter them in normal, advanced, elite and nightmare. Was that way in 2012 and will be the case in 2018 for as long as the requirement to queue up are just settled in level. The fail criteria of advances modes did never ever taught them not to re queue. At most it only hinders players who know what they were doing from wasting their time with them.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
If only this would have happened several months ago I'd still be playing. I'll admit I am tempted to reinstall... but only tempted.
I disagree.
As being a person still trying to learn some of the mechanics of some of the STF's (I haven't played them all) the fact that a fail occurs and is not explained to me does not help. Currently, in the other STF's if an objective fails, people bug out. SO Right at that point, and no further, will I learn how to deal with this mission. With people leaving, it becomes obvious something was not done right. But with everyone leaving and no converstions occuring, I can't find out what covered or taken care of. Not only that, but if the failure occured when I was waiting to respawn, or occured on a portion of the map not visiable to me, I can't know what went wrong.
Now, if the mission doesn't fail at the objective, I get to see the rest of the content. As the mission continues, people will remark as to what wasn't done to get the objective. And that provides the data that I need to know what I might be able to do to help. If that means being in a different part of the map. Or do better placement of sheilds, mortors or whatever abilities I have. It all matters when the information is there. With fails as part of the mission, no one sticks around to see the rest of the content and to talk about the missed oppurtunity.
Remove fails will help people learn. And I think it will help far more people to learn than your apparent pessimistic viewpoint of the playerbase.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
Do Ground queues not tell you why they failed like Space queues do?
edit: I honestly don't know what info Ground gives, by the way, last Ground queue I did a few times was BHA/BHE and well, even the pug runs of that went so smoothly (this was back when BHE was considered by some the easiest thing to do in the game - before they addressed the mobs) that I couldn't even guess at this point what the actual objectives were. Before that...er...like three years ago I accidentally joined one (one of those Zone transition things meaning to click on another dialogue box but that was there instead oopsie things) and I bailed.
Both lack certain details. And I have seen in both ground and space where I respawn and all I get to see is that the mission failed but no statement as to why it failed.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
Space will normally show the failed objective in red in the window with the various objectives. While there may be differences in time or amount of things that can happen, it's going to be the same underlying objective as normal and it tells you that difference in the objective or what is required. Don't allow X, do Y in Z time, etc, etc, etc. There are usually also the various Ops dialogues stating what needs to be done or not done.
edit: I took these for a thread a few weeks back.
http://i.imgur.com/bqNmYEs.png
http://i.imgur.com/k1JrW6C.png
http://i.imgur.com/EEG0SLx.png
http://i.imgur.com/2B8G9ZP.png
So we know...take out the Borg. Take out the Transformers to take out the Gateway. Take out the Generators to take out the Transformers to take out the Gateway. Don't let the Borg repair the Transformer.
Now, they could definitely do a better job of that particular objective in letting folks know it's the Nanites they need to prevent getting to the Transformer. But with that objective failing, turning red, it would be obvious it happened because the Nanites reached the Transformer.
Those are from ISN.
Moving to ISA...what changes? The Optional Objective becomes a Mandatory Objective. Some of the NPCs are changed, but it is still Nanites (Spheres instead of Probes) coming to repair the Transformer. Having played ISN, the player would know that the Nanites appear after a Generator is dropped. That led to folks doing the 10% thing to make sure they had enough time to get the Transformer down before the Nanites got there...Probe or Sphere.
Playing through Normal, a person would pick up various things...experience...having learned what to do in Normal that would prepare them for Advanced. The difference would be in their ability to deal damage and take damage from Advanced foes...not something that needs to be learned from doing an ISA.
ISN and the rest of the game is homework. ISA is the test based on having done that homework.
Most Space queues work just like that...
...that's why I asked about Ground, if it worked different than that.
Since we are talking about advance and not Normal, removing fail wont help people learn. Because it is advance STF where people are suppose to be past learning the STF.
When a player chooses to go to an advance STF regardless if it is private or PuG, they are expected to know what they are doing, expected to have reading comprehension, expect they are in a team mission.
The playerbase is diverse. Those who want to nerf the advance missions are just part of the playerbase. And those who want to nerf advance missions are part of a very specific and unique playerbase who happens to whine a lot in the forums.
And usually I would agree.
But there have been some missions where it's on a timer, and I look at that timer go from 3 minutes left to fail. And no Information as to why. And no apparent lag on my end. My ship never stopped moving, jumped suddenly backwards or any other lag effects that I have seen before.
There are mysteries that would easily be solved if I ould at least have someone to talk to after the fail occur to determine what exactly failed us.
There are others that I know what's going on, but I can't be in two places at once. It would be nice to know if I somehow missed something on my side, or was it the other guy. But I will never know since no one sticks arounds to figure it out.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
I disagree.
I have never learned anything about the optional mechanics from normals of a STF because no one seems to do them. Or at least, I never seem to be in PUG's that does them. The only way I learn anything about an advance STF is by going into an Advanced STF and trying it out. Normally, I can follow one of the other ships/guys around and figure out what needs to be done (Mostly I try to target what they target and try to keep them alive with any skills that will help). But normals never seem to get me the level of knowledge that I need to go do Advance.
Sometimes that knowledge is the very fact that in Normal my gear was good enough, but is not good enough in Advanced because of the changes. And sometimes it's just the knowledge that my particular arrangement of skills and traits was not quite the right combination for that particular STF.
STF's, as they are set up now, are not about progression. There is nothing about the move from Normal to Advance that will really prepare you for the changes that Advance places upon your characters.
You can only learn about Advance's needs and fails from Advance.
And until they revamp the STF's into a progression based system, there is no way that is going to change.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
Pay more attention to your surroundings, it is why we have the ability to move the camera, from a birds eye view and, the shown in red fail plainly shows what went wrong, despite who caused it.
Removing fails doesn't help, because if they cannot learn from normal which pretty much has no fails, than move into advanced which does and, has the exact same strategy to a 99% as normal, than they won't ever learn apparently on their own.
The only difference between normal and advanced, is more enemies, enemies are tougher and, what was optional in normal, is now mandatory with an additional optional added, that is not mandatory.
Here's some more pics to help out.
http://i1250.photobucket.com/albums/hh527/technotranceism/Public%20Use/screenshot_2015-03-14-02-27-20_zpsx9bczsro.jpg
http://i1250.photobucket.com/albums/hh527/technotranceism/Public%20Use/screenshot_2015-03-14-02-34-59_zpsjup4saqb.jpg
http://i1250.photobucket.com/albums/hh527/technotranceism/Public%20Use/screenshot_2015-03-14-02-12-23_zpsvuhelgp2.jpg
http://i1250.photobucket.com/albums/hh527/technotranceism/Public%20Use/screenshot_2015-03-14-02-12-09_zpssokosd1x.jpg
http://i1250.photobucket.com/albums/hh527/technotranceism/Public%20Use/screenshot_2015-03-14-05-16-16_zpsoby4wnmu.jpg
For those who cannot grasp the concept, anything that doesn't say "optional", is mandatory in advanced and, whether you and/or your teammates cannot achieve this simple task, than you all fail, simple as that!!!
All it requires, is reading comprehension 101.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
That is right people with the same mentality as you wont learn unless they fail. Remove the objectives and failures, you and the same playerbase as you wont learn. Because you just admitted you never learn in normal because of choice by not following the instructions nor reading the objectives.
You admitted it as well that you just follow other players around rather than doing it yourself. So the problem seems to be the playerbase who just follows around just like you. Changing the the mechanics wont help players like you since you dont even follow instructions or objectives.
Actually, Gear does make a difference. It changes my survivability quite alot in some cases.
And I never said I learned only from failing. I learn from doing.
I admitted that I didn't learn from Normals because no one was trying to do the optionals in normal. How can I learn to complete an optional designed to be completed by a team when I am doing it alone?
And I follow people around to specifically find out what order they choose thier targets are or what people are considering as more important than another thing. Sometimes I follow a specific person just because I know my DPS is not on par with the best and so stick close to someone who appears to be killing things quickly just to help them stay alive.
And I do read the requirements. But like for the New Borg STF, I can't be at all three spots. And I can't pay attention to all three locations. SO I don't know what they are doing over there. Now if they communicate with me, I will know if they are doing well are need help. And if I see that where I am with a guy that is doing well, I will go to the other spots to help out.
But if it shows that we got 5, and I know that I released 5 on my own, why are the others guys not able to get it done? Why was there a failure? And knowing why they couldn't get it done opens the way to making better plans for the next time. That is information that doesn't get displayed. And that is information you can't get if people just leave.
I find that people are more talkative during a battle about what's going right or wrong, than after battle.
Do not assume that I am not capable of reading, comprehending or thinking. And do not assume that I can complete an STF all on my own.
Treat all with respect. And try to see things from a perspective that is not yours.
Like I said before, the STF's are not designed as progressive content. They are not designed to teach how to do things for the next step up. And they are not currently designed to encourage people to actually stick around and talk. Timers do a lot towards keeping PUG's from doing any sort of planning before starting the mission. And keeping timers in will only continue to hurt that aspect.
And the only reason why I even try Advanced queues is because I want certain crafting mats. SO I only run those stf's that give me the mats I want. Which means that there are many STF's that I will probably never run because there is no reason to do them.
If I could get the mats from some other content (And not from Exchange, that is not content) then I would only do the STF's that I I have fun in.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
Gear helps a player become more efficient but it aint the requirement. the purpose of this thread is to finish advance. Not to finish advance the most efficient way possible. Which makes my statement true.
I merely quoted what you said that you blindly follow players around which isnt a representation of following requirements.
Blindly following players around isnt a justification to nerf advance missions.
Hrmmm, even though the Exchange would not be content...wouldn't it be a case of running content, so as to have things to sell to be able to buy things wanted off the Exchange?
It's kind of a common thing out there...gets into there being a functioning game economy of sorts. Some folks do X, some folks do Y, some folks have A, some folks have B...and...voila.
The R&D VR mats appear to be the big driving force behind the push to change Advanced. Thing is, if one compares where the prices of the mats on the Exchange are now compared to a couple of months ago - start of the year - around DR and before...etc, etc, etc...
...well, this is what they are now:
Argonite Gas: 94,231
Craylon Gas: 7,917
Dentarium: 6,924
Plekton: 68,969
Radiogenic Particle: 75,000
Trellium-K: 10,000
This is what it was back on 4/26:
Curious changes there, eh? Argonite up, Craylon down, Dentarium up, Plekton up, Radiogenic down, and Trellium up.
Fewer boxes being opened and thus fewer R&D/mini R&D packs being opened, eh?
I say that, cause I never saw any growth on the public side for ANRA...if anything, it got more scarce; and I mainly saw negative feedback about it. Odd on one hand that Cryptic is still going forth with the other Advanced changes, but not really odd given so much of what they do coming off as trolling at times...
Making it easier...nerfing the rewards in the process...just meh.
No doubt this is an extremely casual game (and that's not saying that extremely casual is a horrid thing and we need to grab the pitchforks, it's just what it is)...and thus all sorts of changes since the F2P conversion have catered to that - the Advanced changes will just be another of those. Much like they're killing off PvP, they're going to kill off a segment of the playerbase with this as well...but their bread and butter is obviously fine with doing that.
Exchange, and player based economies in all games, are content for some people, I guess. But not what I intend for the term. Which is why I put that blurb in there. You are correct that it is a case of running content to put things on the auction house. But all that does is support the concept of buying your way to better gear, and not working your way to better gear.
For me, properly done presgression content would mean that all lower level content prepares and gears you to take on the next level of content. For Star Trek Online, that means that Normals should prep you for Advanced. And Advanced should prep you for Elite.
Having timers does not promote strategizing, because you can't take the time to plan. The timers themeselves make it imperative that you get start to complete in time. Removing timers, or making it so that the timers don't end the experiance, means that you can take the time to plan, and refine the plan on subsequent runs. Something that is sorely needed in PUG content as every one needs the time to talk out who is going to do what and where and when. And to find out who has the skill/gear/reflexes to get it done.
As for the resources, since I am not Exchange enthusiast, nor an person who focuses on EC making, the option to buy the VR's that I need is not really an option. But that means that the only other viable options are to spend Zen/Real Money (Not an option agreeable to the wife) and running the STF's that provide the missing resources.
If there was other ways to consistantly get the resources at some reasonable pace were available, I would be doing it. But there isn't. And by the very lack of Options, forces us less than optimized players to run those particular STF's.
Most of the negative feedback on ANRA has more to do with the randomness of the ships spawns, which can keep you from completing the optionals, than from people playing it. Any more, when people run it, they look at the initial spawns, and those don't equal 10, they don't even try to complete the optionals. The RNG factor really kills the chance to complete the optionals than the players.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
Being more efficient at killing is necessary to completing objectives that are timed. Which is at odds to what you are saying.
No where in my quote did I say that I "blindly" followed someone. Just because I didn't state a set of criteria on how I chose a person to follow, did not mean there were not criteria.
Following blindly could very well teach you the wrong thing to do. And I don't advocate blindly following people around. But using some logical thought. Usually, for me, I chose someone who looked like they were doing the objects as they appeared in my screen. But that doesn't always mean that they are doing it right, or that my understanding is correct. It's more of a best guess, which gets refined on every run through it till I am positive about what it takes to get it done. After that I look for those who seem to follow the strategy that I think works and go from there. Always refining my knowledge, as best as I can on each subsequent run.
But there always reach a point where the additional runs don't help me refine, because I need the data that the other players can provide to complete the picture of what is going.
And that's what doesn't happen when there is just fails and warp outs.
In ANRA, my experiance in running it has reached the point that I know the optionals will not be accomplished if a certain number of points ships are present at the start of the timer. I have now devised ideas on how to stack that to our advantage and communicate it out to the others. And if every one follows the plan, we can get the optinals. But even that plan is controlled by RNG, for depends still on the right ships being generated. If that happens, no plan will succeed.
There are STF's that I don't run any more because I have to many of the VR resource it grants. I don't need any more of them and so devote my attention to other STF's that I didn't run because they have the resources I need. If the mats would get removed from the STF's, or another methoed was provided to get the mats reliably, then you should see a decrease of people running unprepared for the Advanced STF's because they can get what they need elsewhere.
I will also say that there are STF's that I just don't enjoy and so just don't do well in them. They're just not my cup of tea. But I am forced to run them if I want to get the resources that I need to actually fo what I want to do. That is a design flaw that cryptic can fix, if they so choose to do so.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
It basically does, at least for those who can grasp the concept of game strategies and, quick adaptation in games, as for those who cannot.
Than they need obviously instruction via a human source, because they cannot seem to do it on their own apparently but, it has always been available and, has done little - nothing to resolve the matter.
Removing the timers, just means you can take mins - hours to do a mission and, doesn't better promote team work, since team work has never really been needed until such timers were put into place.
Before DR, many people could jokingly complete elites no matter how crappy of a player they are, now it shows just how crappy players can be and, makes them either deal with it and/or, complain it is to difficult for them.
PUGS are usually always a source of bad - good players, it's just now we more of the bad players that thought they were good in the past and, many actually good players moving away from PUG groups, leaving us with the mess we have currently.
Given instructions by other players has done nothing to change that, having multitudes of resources available, has done nothing to change this, even if Cryptic put in tutorials to literally lead them by the hand, would undoubtedly do little - nothing to change the problem.
The problem will only change, when those who are the root cause of the problem, decide to change and, nothing anyone else can do really will change this.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Hmm....
In the other MMO's that I play, PUGS get better as the particular content ages. They get better because people take time to talk and strategize before starting each section of the content. They also get better, because from the runs they get the better gear that helps complete the current content better. This is in MMO's that have progression for their formats for queued content.
Have timers limits or eliminates that strategizing time in PUGS. Pre-mades have all the time in the world to strategze before they queue the content. Fails that end the content does not promote team coopoeration and communication. Having no Timers and no fails that end content has always lent to more people taking thier time to talk, make plans and go at the content in a methodical manner that allows for everyone to succeed. And the get the loot. Other MMO's use this model effectively and still create content that is hard, and thought provoking. This is where I want to see STF's to go. To methods and process that promote team effort, cooperation and communication with out feeling like it will limit the final payout on loot. This is all I want.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
Not everybody speaks English - not everybody that does speak English speaks enough to do that.
It's likely one of the additional reasons why the objectives in much of the content is laid out the way it is...why most of the objectives are so simple...and why they carry over the way they do in moving from Normal to Advanced to Elite.
You could end up in a pug with five people where they literally have no way to communicate...cause they all speak different languages.
So the objectives are set that no communication is needed...and...that's pretty much what we have.
Yeah, if you want to work on the limited communication problem, putting in timers is not going to help that. Putting in fails will not help either. No failure conditions will allow people to work out some level of communication, maybe with emotes or other clever actions like that, to get people to concentrate and focus on certain portions of the content.
Again, the timers will eliminate PUG's from working out ways to overcome those barriers and just have the group going in willy nilly and failing. And since the content has cooldowns, this will more likely frustrate people and cause ire and rage, than not.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)