Why would someone choose a leader that screwed them at every turn over a leader that not only gave the Romulans a new home but took the remnants and built them into a legitimate space government?
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Why would someone choose a leader that screwed them at every turn over a leader that not only gave the Romulans a new home but took the remnants and built them into a legitimate space government?
Ok... we didn't need a "NEW" home. We have many highly developed planets that aren't in Klingon space.
Seems like an iconian plot to me. No one notices this Faux Romulas for years. Then it just happens to have Iconian tech with a sphere gateway.
If D'Tan was a romulan I would say there is some plan afoot.
Ok... we didn't need a "NEW" home. We have many highly developed planets that aren't in Klingon space.
Seems like an iconian plot to me. No one notices this Faux Romulas for years. Then it just happens to have Iconian tech with a sphere gateway.
If D'Tan was a romulan I would say there is some plan afoot.
We did need a new home. Rator's government was a joke, devoted to Sela and blind to her crimes against fellow Romulans.
Also... pretty sure it was the RSE that was involved with the Iconians. Hence all the problems since the 2380's. That said, Dewa III turned out to be the former home of another Iconian servant race. We learned a lot from what we found there.
Also, the Dewa system is well in Romulan space. It's close to the Federation and Klingon borders, yes, but still well in the green zone. But for the record, take a look at the Tau Dewa and Psi Velorum sector maps. The RSE's precious 'home' of Rator is actually much closer to its section of the Neutral Zone with the Federation than New Romulus is to its own - by about half a sector length.
I can understand being a fan of the RSE we saw in TNG, DS9, etc. I cannot understand being a fan of the RSE as it exists in 2410. And that wasn't Cryptic that killed it - it was Shinzon that started the downward spiral of the old Empire, so the fall of the RSE is in fact full canon. Cryptic, and other authors of written works, just laid out the path that this downfall took.
By that measure, the Republic is the first solid footing of government to rise as a successor to the dying RSE. Triana supports it wholeheartedly.
I disagree, it *was* Cryptic that killed it.
If you have played prior to LoR, its a bit more obvious. The RSE as written in STO has always been a bit ...unpleasant, thanks in no small part to the invention of the character Hakeev.
However, pre-LoR Hakeev and Sela were not in league (never even shared any dialogue together), Sela had a long-running feud with the Tal Shiar stemming from the leader of the Tal Shiar framing her for murder and getting her exiled. Sela was not in League with the Iconians, and it's pretty heavily implied-had no knowledge of Hakeev or the Iconian's actions in the destruction of the homeworld.
There was no experimentation with borg technology on prisoners of war or civilians. The Empire was not abducting citizens to turn into mushrooms at the behest of the Iconians, and in contrast to her portrayal post-LoR, Sela was known to use diplomacy, rather than force as a first option for reintegrating colonies into the empire. The armed forces of the Empire were not replaced by the Tal Shiar. There was no civil war between the Republic and the Empire because the Republic only came into being in the chaos after Sela's disappearance and only the Tal Shiar was involved in the sabotage operations on NR.
So yes, I do think the Empire's current awful portrayal lays squarely at the the feet of Cryptic. They quite clearly chose the direction that they took...nothing that they did to the Romulans in STO was in any way 'necessary' or an 'inevitability'...considering they heavily re-wrote the existing Romulan storyline to get it where it is today.
Cryptic set the Empire up to be the 'Black hat' to the Republic's 'White hat' by making the the Empire comically self-destructively evil and making the Republic into a generic 'rebel alliance' faction. Absolutely nothing subtle or amazing in writing such a simplistic rewrite, IMO. I don't hate Hakeev or the new Sela or Empire, I roll my eyes at them.
Hopefully this new episode shows a change in the way the wind is blowing, at the very worst I think we could expect something where the PC has no input on the moral message of the episode, like we did in the last one with the Kobali.
Ok... we didn't need a "NEW" home. We have many highly developed planets that aren't in Klingon space.
Then why were you so pissed off at the destruction of Romulus if you didn't need a new home?
All those colony worlds started fighting amongst themselves and none of them won...well maybe Rator III, but away from there how many Romulans did Sela really take care of?
Seems like an iconian plot to me. No one notices this Faux Romulas for years. Then it just happens to have Iconian tech with a sphere gateway.
That just shows ignorance to what's been told. The Romulan people settled on Dewa III centuries ago, they just couldn't stay because of the radiation.
If D'Tan was a romulan I would say there is some plan afoot.
But according to you he isn't so why worry about it?
If you have played prior to LoR, its a bit more obvious. The RSE as written in STO has always been a bit ...unpleasant, thanks in no small part to the invention of the character Hakeev.
So they're forbidden from creating new villains?
However, pre-LoR Hakeev and Sela were not in league (never even shared any dialogue together), Sela had a long-running feud with the Tal Shiar stemming from the leader of the Tal Shiar framing her for murder and getting her exiled. Sela was not in League with the Iconians, and it's pretty heavily implied-had no knowledge of Hakeev or the Iconian's actions in the destruction of the homeworld.
I would argue they were barely in league post Legacy of Romulus.
She was completely exiled prior to the Hobus Supernova, she's legitimately innocent of that and I think if she had known, she would've had his head.
Knowing Sela though I still think she would've used it as a pretext for war against Vulcan and the Federation.
So unless the Iconians brainwashed her and are using her as a Manchurian Candidate (ironic considering what she did to Geordi) she can be reasonably assumed to not be on their side.
There was no experimentation with borg technology on prisoners of war or civilians. The Empire was not abducting citizens to turn into mushrooms at the behest of the Iconians, and in contrast to her portrayal post-LoR, Sela was known to use diplomacy, rather than force as a first option for reintegrating colonies into the empire. The armed forces of the Empire were not replaced by the Tal Shiar. There was no civil war between the Republic and the Empire because the Republic only came into being in the chaos after Sela's disappearance and only the Tal Shiar was involved in the sabotage operations on NR.
Sela's diplomacy is suspect at best though. Recall this is the woman who attempted to use Spock to covertly land a Romulan invasion force on Vulcan using the ploy that Unificationists were sending a peace convoy. Using force isn't foreign to her in canon. She's also the woman who intervened in the Kklingon Civil War. So the current Sela isn't acting out of character.
But, of course we can't necessarily pin ALL of Hakeev's crimes on Sela as she didn't have the full breadth of information. Though if you hear Taris tell it, Hakeev tricked her too and she didn't know the science experiment he had going at Hobus would annihilate the homeworld. We're still not letting her off the hook.
The fact of the matter is that Sela was running a protection racket with the Tal Shiar, offering her protection for pledging loyalty to her and if they didn't she would have the Tal Shiar (and unbeknownst to her the Elachi) raid their colony. Naked assaults on unarmed civilians is bad enough.
The Imperial forces and the Tal Shiar forces are indeed separate but they were allied and cooperating. Which makes sense as the Tal Shiar has always been the Imperial Secret police so calling them separate is equally fallacious. You can call them an out of control intelligence agency, but that's the same answer you would've gotten from any Imperial Navy officer for the last century.
The Republic didn't just pop up out of nowhere, but instead was steadily growing, and only recently it gained enough political capital to stand on its own after Virinat. That's before the Battle of Brea however where Sela disappeared, so there was a period where both factions were in existence at the same time. At that time Sela was trying to use political maneuvers to remove the Republic...unfortunately one of those maneuvers was attacking Vulcan.
So yes, I do think the Empire's current awful portrayal lays squarely at the the feet of Cryptic. They quite clearly chose the direction that they took...nothing that they did to the Romulans in STO was in any way 'necessary' or an 'inevitability'...considering they heavily re-wrote the existing Romulan storyline to get it where it is today.
Cryptic set the Empire up to be the 'Black hat' to the Republic's 'White hat' by making the the Empire comically self-destructively evil and making the Republic into a generic 'rebel alliance' faction. Absolutely nothing subtle or amazing in writing such a simplistic rewrite, IMO. I don't hate Hakeev or the new Sela or Empire, I roll my eyes at them.
I would argue that part of the reason for the rewrite is that before they didn't have access to Denise Crosby and the ability to work with her and so they naturally expanded Sela's role in the game to reflect the opportunity.
And Sela has always been a villain, and with the Empire under her control them being antagonistic was an inevitable situation.
So you create the Republic and then suddenly Sela is not the only game in town. So every Romulan like the Romulan Commanders in Balance of Terror and the Chase, Admiral Jarok, and Commander Donatra who don't believe that the Romulan's path is necessarily through bloodshed, conquest, and deceit leaves the Empire to create a new nation for their people.
That leaves Sela with basically the worst of the worst, the most hardcore conquerors, the most vicious warriors, racists, xenophobes, and the Tal Shiar. And to be empress she had to control all of them.
It holds up to internal logic in that regard. Her working with the Tal Shiar may have been stupid overall, but I see it as a relationship of necessity and one she wasn't pleased with. Better to have them in her corner than acting independently.
This is also following the novel continuity of the Romulan civil war after Nemesis between Donatra and Tal'aura. That said, carrying through the idea of the Imperial Romulan State wouldn't have been a bad path. Though I like the idea of the Republic. As Romulus has the Rome theme, it represents getting back to basics.
Hopefully this new episode shows a change in the way the wind is blowing, at the very worst I think we could expect something where the PC has no input on the moral message of the episode, like we did in the last one with the Kobali.
That could be interesting, we'll have to wait and see.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
I would argue they were barely in league post Legacy of Romulus.
She was completely exiled prior to the Hobus Supernova, she's legitimately innocent of that and I think if she had known, she would've had his head.
Knowing Sela though I still think she would've used it as a pretext for war against Vulcan and the Federation.
So unless the Iconians brainwashed her and are using her as a Manchurian Candidate (ironic considering what she did to Geordi) she can be reasonably assumed to not be on their side.
Hakeev begin her right hand and the Tal Shiar replacing the Imperial military in its entirety is still a big difference between Pre LoR and post LoR.
Still better than just wiping out entire colonies at the drop of a hat. It showed she had more than two brain cells to rub together, IMO. And showed that she at least preferred to settle things nonviolently where possible. Sela from the shows at least tried to act covertly. New Sela is anythign but.
Again, Elachii didn't exist at all prior to LoR.
'Normal' Imperial forces don't exist post-LoR. They were dissolved and absorbed into the Tal Shiar in their entirety. Tal Shiar was also explicitly not in control of policy. The leader of the Tal Shiar says as much on New Romulus...their goal is explicitly a new Romulan Govt ruled by the Tal Shiar.
Attacking Vulcan is a new Episode. Again, prior to LoR, there was no Republic in the story. There was 'D'tan's faction' but it wasn't called the republic, and was explicitly mentioned as being a breakaway faction emerging from the chaos of Sela's disappearance. There was no period in the old storyline where D'Tan's faction existed while Sela was in power.
She was always a villain. This is true. But her actions in STO are mind-numbingly counter productive. Evil for the sake of evil garbage.
Pre LoR you had more sane Imperial enemies. Just compare the old Romulan captain from 'The Return' to her new version. No subtlety whatsoever in the new faction. They are almost all insane lunatics hellbent on destroying their own species.
If we were going by 'novel continuity' Sela and Taris would be long dead. The borg wouldn't exist either. Cryptic has demonstrated that they don't feel beholden to the novels or comic books, so I don't really see that as much of an argument. Then can (and have) shown a willingness to deviate drastically whenever they want.
'Normal' Imperial forces don't exist post-LoR. They were dissolved and absorbed into the Tal Shiar in their entirety. Tal Shiar was also explicitly not in control of policy. The leader of the Tal Shiar says as much on New Romulus...their goal is explicitly a new Romulan Govt ruled by the Tal Shiar.
Attacking Vulcan is a new Episode. Again, prior to LoR, there was no Republic in the story. There was 'D'tan's faction' but it wasn't called the republic, and was explicitly mentioned as being a breakaway faction emerging from the chaos of Sela's disappearance. There was no period in the old storyline where D'Tan's faction existed while Sela was in power.
Suppose I can't comment a whole lot on pre-LoR content, 'cause I only came into the game after LoR.
But to me, that sounds like an evolution of both states - D'Tan's faction into the full Republic, and the total dominance of the Tal Shiar in the current RSE. Of course there were some retroactive changes in the storyline, but it does sound like the end result was a development of both entities as the STO story progressed.
So by the end of the 'main' storyline, the RSE is almost entirely a Tal Shiar state that is wholly connected to the atrocities against other colonies, as well as the Elachi / Iconian allegiance. Whereas early on, there were some remaining bits of the original RSE that had yet to be consumed by Hakeev and Sela - both using their own methods, and for their own malicious purposes.
Suppose I can't comment a whole lot on pre-LoR content, 'cause I only came into the game after LoR.
But to me, that sounds like an evolution of both states - D'Tan's faction into the full Republic, and the total dominance of the Tal Shiar in the current RSE. Of course there were some retroactive changes in the storyline, but it does sound like the end result was a development of both entities as the STO story progressed.
So by the end of the 'main' storyline, the RSE is almost entirely a Tal Shiar state that is wholly connected to the atrocities against other colonies, as well as the Elachi / Iconian allegiance. Whereas early on, there were some remaining bits of the original RSE that had yet to be consumed by Hakeev and Sela - both using their own methods, and for their own malicious purposes.
Pre LoR The Tal Shiar-Iconian plot was basically a conspiracy within the RSE. When Sela showed up in cutting the cord originally, it was to defend a Romulan planet that was essentially being invaded-no other reason, but we learned in the New Romulus missions that the Tal Shiar were actually afraid that she was going to use it as an excuse to exterminate the Tal Shiar.
Pre LoR, the Tal Shiar was part of the government, but their political power is implied to be extremely limited thanks to The Empress's rivalry with them.
After Sela's disappearance, the RSE leadership fragments, and go back to infighting among themselves. D'Tan's (essentially) reunificationists break away and distance themselves from this infighting, which leads them to being one of the more powerful factions overall (since they didn't weaken themselves with infighting, and are getting aid from the Federation and KDF). The Tal Shiar want to insinuate themselves into D'Tan's faction and rule from behind the scenes, which they were not capable of with Sela in power, and make D'Tan Emperor..they may be sabotaging the other Romulan factions to facilitate D'tan's faction becoming the most powerful...the captives in the Tal Shiar base on New Romulus are all RSE military personnel. But before any of their plans can come to fruition, they are stopped by the PC, and the leader of the Tal Shiar (NOT Hakeev) is captured. This basically ends the threat of the Tal Shiar as a power, since the NR operation was supposed to be a last gasp hail mary sort of attempt to gain control.
The Star Empire continues to exist, but don't seem interested in either New Romulus or pursuing war with the federation or Klingons. When we next see them, they are noncombative, and will basically call you out for being a bully and if you try to confiscate their borg research. So the Star Empire was licking its wounds, but recovering (with an unknown individual or individuals in power on Rator)
The Pre-LoR Romulan Storyline in a nutshell.
So I wouldn't necessarily say that it's a natural evolution-Pre LoR the Tal Shiar were relatively weak, and were destroyed essentially in their entirety in their last-gasp attempt to take over New Romulus, while the Empire itself outlived them, and the Empire itself was much closer to the old RSE rather than the Tal Shiar asylum it is now.
colonelchenchuan, your precious RSE is dead and gone. Fleets are in shambles, you have no real Control of your former people except through bullying them. Where is the cool RSE when we can travel to Delta Quadrant, or when we seized Control of Jenolan sphere, or when we got a base in the Solanae? They are in a small hideout somewhere praying UFP, Klingon Empire and Romulan Republic wont find them while planing their next attack. Face it, RR is the Romulan voice in the galaxy. They are the one in Solanae shooting Voth, they are the one helping Delta Quadrant get to rid of Iconian puppets and they are the one that have a presence in Jenolan base. RSE? RSE are trying to enslave Romulans.
RR won the war, RSE lost. History is written by Victors not losers, not happy? Retake Power from RR then, no wait you can't.
Hast thou not gone against sincerity
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
God I swear sometime we need to have a mission to hunt down the last Tal Shiar remnants and put a hole in their face.
Hast thou not gone against sincerity
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
So I wouldn't necessarily say that it's a natural evolution-Pre LoR the Tal Shiar were relatively weak, and were destroyed essentially in their entirety in their last-gasp attempt to take over New Romulus, while the Empire itself outlived them, and the Empire itself was much closer to the old RSE rather than the Tal Shiar asylum it is now.
Hat tip for the detailed information there, thanks!
I guess one way to look at it then (besides the obvious re-writing that happened for LoR) is that A) as the Republic allied with the Federation and KDF, both those governments got a much more in-depth look at what was really going on behind the Neutral Zone than they'd previously experienced, and the RSE / Tal Shiar connection and conspiracies were much farther reaching than anyone had thought, and the strength of their initial forces was greater than expected, specifically with the Borg Narada-style enhancements. Case in point for the last one, as you're playing through the Romulan storyline you're supposed to be shocked as you find out for the first time the depth of the RSE / TS crimes against Romulanity.
At least that's my way of reconciling the two stories, at first thought.
No just pointing out that he's one of the main contributors to the lower IQ-mustache-twirling status of the RSE.
I would like to hope that once we get some face time with the Iconians we'll get to see why setting off the galactic strategic equivalent of Tsar Bomba and wiping Romulus off the face the Milky Way was required to bring back the Iconians.
I will give credit for Cryptic's continuity choice of placing Taris in the center of the Iconian dealings as she was the Romulan Warbird commander present when Iconia was discovered.
Hakeev begin her right hand and the Tal Shiar replacing the Imperial military in its entirety is still a big difference between Pre LoR and post LoR.
I still don't feel that the Tal Shiar have replaced the entire Imperial Military.
Still better than just wiping out entire colonies at the drop of a hat. It showed she had more than two brain cells to rub together, IMO. And showed that she at least preferred to settle things nonviolently where possible. Sela from the shows at least tried to act covertly. New Sela is anythign but.
I don't buy Sela as non-Violent.
She acted covertly in the shows because she wasn't in control. She managed plots. A single Commander doesn't have the clout to go to full scale war.
And in addition overt we act first action has never been Romulan style. Even in game Sela looks for pretexts to justify offensive action.
Again, Elachii didn't exist at all prior to LoR.
Well no of course not. Though that's immaterial as they're just glue between the Tal Shiar and the Iconians.
'Normal' Imperial forces don't exist post-LoR. They were dissolved and absorbed into the Tal Shiar in their entirety. Tal Shiar was also explicitly not in control of policy. The leader of the Tal Shiar says as much on New Romulus...their goal is explicitly a new Romulan Govt ruled by the Tal Shiar.
Attacking Vulcan is a new Episode. Again, prior to LoR, there was no Republic in the story. There was 'D'tan's faction' but it wasn't called the republic, and was explicitly mentioned as being a breakaway faction emerging from the chaos of Sela's disappearance. There was no period in the old storyline where D'Tan's faction existed while Sela was in power.
Attacking Vulcan AGAIN. That's perfectly in character for Sela and normal. She was operating under the false idea that Vulcan's unwillingness to help was the reason for Romulus' destruction.
As far as the breakaway faction, it's equally logical that the Republic existed before breaking away simply because pulling that all together in such a short time is equally incredulous.
I will continue to contend that as much of the RSE forces were absorbed into the Republic as were the Tal Shiar. That said, that would've made a good mission showing that, with Romulan characters convincing RSE officers to join the Republic.
She was always a villain. This is true. But her actions in STO are mind-numbingly counter productive. Evil for the sake of evil garbage.
What has she done that was evil for the sake of evil?
Don't blur her with Hakeev, who did plenty of things behind her back. Even the new missions explicitly show that they didn't get along.
As a matter of fact along your line of reasoning it's possible that the RSE forces actually expended a huge amount of their number in the attack on Vulcan...an attack that Hakeev and the Tal Shiar sat out of.
Pre LoR you had more sane Imperial enemies. Just compare the old Romulan captain from 'The Return' to her new version. No subtlety whatsoever in the new faction. They are almost all insane lunatics hellbent on destroying their own species.
I'll back you on that in places. They actually removed the missions that showed the sane Romulans. As much as I hated Divide et Impera for the mind numbingly stupid decision forced on our Captains, the benevolent Romulan officers working to stop the Undine were excellent and perfectly in line with Romulan behavior.
As for Taelus you've got me there. If I'm not mistaken though she's also the first RSE officer who was shown experimenting with Borg technology in the same vein as the Tal Shiar.
If we were going by 'novel continuity' Sela and Taris would be long dead. The borg wouldn't exist either. Cryptic has demonstrated that they don't feel beholden to the novels or comic books, so I don't really see that as much of an argument. Then can (and have) shown a willingness to deviate drastically whenever they want.
I don't blame them for that. But I hated the Caeliar storyline with a passion so I was glad to see it go.
I was just saying the Typhon Pact is a better direction.
Pre LoR The Tal Shiar-Iconian plot was basically a conspiracy within the RSE. When Sela showed up in cutting the cord originally, it was to defend a Romulan planet that was essentially being invaded-no other reason, but we learned in the New Romulus missions that the Tal Shiar were actually afraid that she was going to use it as an excuse to exterminate the Tal Shiar.
Still in Post LoR she was then shown pulling the plug.
Pre LoR, the Tal Shiar was part of the government, but their political power is implied to be extremely limited thanks to The Empress's rivalry with them.
I've never thought of the Tal Shiar's power as "limited".
After Sela's disappearance, the RSE leadership fragments, and go back to infighting among themselves. D'Tan's (essentially) reunificationists break away and distance themselves from this infighting, which leads them to being one of the more powerful factions overall (since they didn't weaken themselves with infighting, and are getting aid from the Federation and KDF). The Tal Shiar want to insinuate themselves into D'Tan's faction and rule from behind the scenes, which they were not capable of with Sela in power, and make D'Tan Emperor..they may be sabotaging the other Romulan factions to facilitate D'tan's faction becoming the most powerful...the captives in the Tal Shiar base on New Romulus are all RSE military personnel. But before any of their plans can come to fruition, they are stopped by the PC, and the leader of the Tal Shiar (NOT Hakeev) is captured. This basically ends the threat of the Tal Shiar as a power, since the NR operation was supposed to be a last gasp hail mary sort of attempt to gain control.
All correct, though the Tal Shiar weakening the other factions to improve D'Tan's position would be good, that would require them to actually show the other factions. Ironically the Romulans would've benefited from some of the clan politics in the Klingon's Empire series.
And yes the NR operation was the death knell of the Tal Shiar.
The Star Empire continues to exist, but don't seem interested in either New Romulus or pursuing war with the federation or Klingons. When we next see them, they are noncombative, and will basically call you out for being a bully and if you try to confiscate their borg research. So the Star Empire was licking its wounds, but recovering (with an unknown individual or individuals in power on Rator)
The Pre-LoR Romulan Storyline in a nutshell.
It should be noted that the Romulan Star Empire symbol still occupies the northern stretch of sector space on the season 10 map. So perhaps Cryptic will revive them in the future.
So I wouldn't necessarily say that it's a natural evolution-Pre LoR the Tal Shiar were relatively weak, and were destroyed essentially in their entirety in their last-gasp attempt to take over New Romulus, while the Empire itself outlived them, and the Empire itself was much closer to the old RSE rather than the Tal Shiar asylum it is now.
That's a fair assessment.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Honestly there isn't much they could do in any event. Any human could understand why they're want to torture her to within an inch of her life.
That doesn't mean they condone it. Hell the Federation stuck Taris in a cell and left her there. 2410 UFP isn't some dystopian monstrosity, we're just at war.
I never said it was the Imperium of Man.
But it isn't the impossibly white-hat, mary-sue of The Next Generation.
The Federation of 2410 is more about pragmatism, gunboat diplomacy, and political double-speak. More so than even in Kirk's time. They might still pay lip service to the ideals of the 24th Century, but do the opposite in the interest of realpolitik and security. Once her value is used up, I doubt Starfleet Command, or a good portion of the Federation civilian government, would give a damn about her.
And I believe that pragmatism is what kept Taris from being turned over to the Star Empire, or the later Republic. She had too many juicy secrets swirling in her despicable head. She was more valuable still breathing in the long run. If she was released to the custody of one of the above? Hakeev or Sela would have seen her dead before she even crossed the old Neutral Zone. And as soon as she stepped off of the shuttle on New Romulus, she would be facing a lynch mob of epic proportions.
I doubt it.
I wouldn't. Remember the whole Kelso Affair? The UFP, in the interest of maneuvering the political and diplomatic battlefields, will make high minded proclamations and lofty public statements. But when it's time to be pragmatic, and the interests/ security of the UFP is at stake, all of that lofty TRIBBLE goes out the door.
More than likely though their work would be cut out for them trying to verify what she said, since torture can be infamously unreliable. Do you really think she would give them good information under torture? They don't even have a baseline to corroborate her with. She's literally their only witness.
I agree that physical torture is notoriously unreliable. However, there are other methods to extract intelligence if she starts playing too many games. And no matter how well trained Sela is to resist interrogation, everybody has a breaking point. A good interrogation team WOULD find Sela's breaking point.
All true. I think he's shown a few signs that he's a little cocky with the high level of success he's had thus far. But overall he's taking many of the best parts of what Spock taught him.
Agreed. And for the record, Spock has a history of being somewhat pragmatic at times, and wasn't blinded by idealism. D'Tan learned well from the master.
All true, but I wouldn't place her in the same space as Taris and Hakeev though. For all the TRIBBLE she's done, she wasn't responsible for the Hobus Supernova.
No, she wasn't responsible for the Big Boom. But there are hints that she was aware of Hakeev's activities and the Elachi "harvests". But as long as it didn't affect Romulan inhabited worlds under her thumb, she didn't give two-****s. The same applies to her "devil's bargain" with the Hirogen.
That makes her just as bad as Hakeev and Taris, as far as I'm concern. As long as her position of power wasn't threatened, she condoned, by inaction and guilty knowledge, mass murder, attempted genocide, and treason among the major players of the Star Empire.
As a Starfleet officer I say, let's not get carried away. As a Soldier of the Republic I say, Mena! Mena! Mena! or Even Rai. As a warrior I say, to hell with K'Men let me "talk" to her.
Most of my Starfleet characters, especially my hard-TRIBBLE original, thinks she would look good at the end of a noose. But in their back stories, they tend to be hard due to forty years of chaos and conflict. Not to mention, some of the TRIBBLE they've seen in their adventures. However, they are aware of her intelligence value. But once she's no longer an asset, she can rot for all they care.
And where is Obisek?
That's what I want to know. Obisek is made of AWESOME and WIN.
It's an interesting note that as a Romulan she'll be looking at 150 more years of life easy. 50 years in a Romulan prison, 50 years on a Federation Asteroid, and round it out with 50 years in "The Gulag Rura Penthe".
Send her to Rura Penthe from the get-go. The mind-numbing, cold steel isolation of Facility 4028 is too good for the *****.
Why doesn't Faux Romulas just join the federation and be done with it?
If they do that my romiulan toon would be deleted. I personally made a kdf rom as I didnt like the way that RR seem to goody two shoes not the sneaky and scheming romulans I know and love.
NO TO ARC
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Or they could do something ingenius like have the Romulan people flock to Sela as opposed to the Federation puppet D'Tan, over thrown the pathetic republic.
Sela is the only actual romulan in the entire game and she's a freaking 1/2 breed!
+1 for this
NO TO ARC
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Because, despite the best efforts of the RSE to the contrary, we're an independent state. The Solanae Sphere is ours. We lead the Delta Expedition. We are considered the voice of the Romulan and Reman peoples, as the recognized legitimate government in Romulan space. The Federation and Klingon Empire respect us as equals, even if a select handful of individual captains don't. They don't go to the RSE when they want to speak with the Romulans - they call up D'Tan and the Republic.
The RSE is a political afterthought and a nuisance at this point. The Republic patrols Romulan space. The Republic is in the Delta Quadrant. The Republic is represented at multilateral negotiations. The RSE is nowhere to be found.
The RR are like puppie following there masters around they aren't equal in terms of species or a faction if they were equal there would have there own defence force. But since the kdf and feds helped them all they do is suck up to them which is really annoying and D'Tan is not romulan in my opinion. He is a Vulcan in romulan clothing and not someone I would choose to rule the new RSE.
NO TO ARC
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
We did need a new home. Rator's government was a joke, devoted to Sela and blind to her crimes against fellow Romulans.
Also... pretty sure it was the RSE that was involved with the Iconians. Hence all the problems since the 2380's. That said, Dewa III turned out to be the former home of another Iconian servant race. We learned a lot from what we found there.
Also, the Dewa system is well in Romulan space. It's close to the Federation and Klingon borders, yes, but still well in the green zone. But for the record, take a look at the Tau Dewa and Psi Velorum sector maps. The RSE's precious 'home' of Rator is actually much closer to its section of the Neutral Zone with the Federation than New Romulus is to its own - by about half a sector length.
Did we need a new home we had many developed colonies Rator Virinat places where romulas had home and we would have not needed that if the Vulcans had got of there asses earler and gave the Spock the red matter instead of wasting time. I don't condemn Spock as he did everything he could to save his adopted planet but the destruction of romulus and remus caused the people two split. One who stayed true romulans and ones who became puppy dogs to federation and there kdf master race.
NO TO ARC
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Did we need a new home we had many developed colonies Rator Virinat places where romulas had home and we would have not needed that if the Vulcans had got of there asses earler and gave the Spock the red matter instead of wasting time. I don't condemn Spock as he did everything he could to save his adopted planet but the destruction of romulus and remus caused the people two split. One who stayed true romulans and ones who became puppy dogs to federation and there kdf master race.
Interesting that you should mention Virinat. The Empire had plenty of colony worlds...at least until the Tal Shiar were finished with them.
And the Vulcans didn't just deliberately sit and wait for the supernova to hit Romulus. They just weren't expecting it to move as quickly as it did.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
1: Offer Sela the Romulan Right of Statement. [Mentioned in Enterprise Incident]
2: Liberate Donatra from the Collective.
3: Introduce the two.
4: Record information Sela gives out.
As a side note. What would be interesting would be a "New Star Empire" under a liberated borg Donatra. Wipe out the Tal'Shiar as best as one can-they are traitors for assisting in the obliteration of Romulus. (Directly in Hakeev's case, Indirectly in other members' cases)
They could then set up a mission where you could choose between this New Empire and the Republic. View I have of the New Empire is not "evil", but definately a bit grey. Note: The main thing that makes me dislike the Republic is the whole reunification angle. In my opinion it basically will lead to the complete annihilation of all it is to be Romulan. I mean the whole reason they left Vulcan is they wanted to live with their passions and not follow logic.
Now-you can have ***peace*** with Vulcan without being ahem, assimilated back into their culture, and this seems a fair way to handle it They could also do a story arc regarding the liberation of Donatra as well. If done well, this could be a way to have both Empire and Republic in the game, and make the decision for Roumlan players be "What does it mean to be Romulan?" rather then "Which foreign power do I ally with." Best part? Tal'Shiar would continue as a villain for both the Republic and New Empire
But it isn't the impossibly white-hat, mary-sue of The Next Generation.
I actually violently disagree with the assessment of a white hat or Mary Sue baby Federation. We Romulans aren't good at that anyway.
The Federation of 2410 is more about pragmatism, gunboat diplomacy, and political double-speak. More so than even in Kirk's time. They might still pay lip service to the ideals of the 24th Century, but do the opposite in the interest of realpolitik and security. Once her value is used up, I doubt Starfleet Command, or a good portion of the Federation civilian government, would give a damn about her.
No. You're wrong. Once her intelligence value is exhausted unless she by some miracle managed to work a deal, it would be trial time for Sela.
But what makes you think they give a damn about her in the first place?
And I believe that pragmatism is what kept Taris from being turned over to the Star Empire, or the later Republic. She had too many juicy secrets swirling in her despicable head. She was more valuable still breathing in the long run. If she was released to the custody of one of the above? Hakeev or Sela would have seen her dead before she even crossed the old Neutral Zone. And as soon as she stepped off of the shuttle on New Romulus, she would be facing a lynch mob of epic proportions.
Sela would've killed her, Hakeev would've rescued her as they were on the same page, and you're completely right about the New Romulus inhabitants. Ideals be damned this is the Romulan temper here.
I wouldn't. Remember the whole Kelso Affair? The UFP, in the interest of maneuvering the political and diplomatic battlefields, will make high minded proclamations and lofty public statements. But when it's time to be pragmatic, and the interests/ security of the UFP is at stake, all of that lofty TRIBBLE goes out the door.
A fascinating rehash. It's just a replay of The Pegasus incident. Admiral Okeg said that while the treaties were gone, the commitment to peace was still there.
As much as I love the Path to 2409, I'm generally pissed that Cryptic hasn't followed up on them. A simple note that the Jenolan Accords, or the Dyson Joint Command agreement allowed Starfleet vessels to equip cloaking devices would've cleared that up easily. As it stands it's gameplay and story segregation so we can have canon cloaking Defiants and Galaxy-Xs.
I agree that physical torture is notoriously unreliable. However, there are other methods to extract intelligence if she starts playing too many games. And no matter how well trained Sela is to resist interrogation, everybody has a breaking point. A good interrogation team WOULD find Sela's breaking point.
I think they're taking there time. The isolation and boredom are preparatory rather than the whole method.
Agreed. And for the record, Spock has a history of being somewhat pragmatic at times, and wasn't blinded by idealism. D'Tan learned well from the master.
Spock has a mean game of dirty pool and a very irritating game of chess.
No, she wasn't responsible for the Big Boom. But there are hints that she was aware of Hakeev's activities and the Elachi "harvests". But as long as it didn't affect Romulan inhabited worlds under her thumb, she didn't give two-****s. The same applies to her "devil's bargain" with the Hirogen.
That makes her just as bad as Hakeev and Taris, as far as I'm concern. As long as her position of power wasn't threatened, she condoned, by inaction and guilty knowledge, mass murder, attempted genocide, and treason among the major players of the Star Empire.
It's not what she did or didn't know, but what she didn't bother to find out. I think she was legit appalled that they were turning Romulans into Elachi. But that's her fault for not keeping her dog on his leash.
Most of my Starfleet characters, especially my hard-TRIBBLE original, thinks she would look good at the end of a noose. But in their back stories, they tend to be hard due to forty years of chaos and conflict. Not to mention, some of the TRIBBLE they've seen in their adventures. However, they are aware of her intelligence value. But once she's no longer an asset, she can rot for all they care.
Well that's longer than mine have been alive, but in general my main's code of honor finds torture rather distasteful and wasteful, and killing her to be perfectly acceptable. His people (human though an independent colony) as a rule never torture for information. Torture for execution yes, but never for information.
That's what I want to know. Obisek is made of AWESOME and WIN.
Yep Yep Yep.
I know Obisek would decline to interrogate her, and I'm sure that he's settling in to not being a freedom fighter anymore, but building a new home, but I'm expecting his guilty vote when she's brought before the Republic Senate.
Send her to Rura Penthe from the get-go. The mind-numbing, cold steel isolation of Facility 4028 is too good for the *****.
I'd rather have her wishing for Facility 4028 while she's in Rura Penthe. Maybe reopen Hfihar and let her work for Madran.
Did we need a new home we had many developed colonies Rator Virinat places where romulas had home and we would have not needed that if the Vulcans had got of there asses earler and gave the Spock the red matter instead of wasting time. I don't condemn Spock as he did everything he could to save his adopted planet but the destruction of romulus and remus caused the people two split. One who stayed true romulans and ones who became puppy dogs to federation and there kdf master race.
I think it should be noted that the Romulan Imperial Senate rejected Spock's offers of assistance.
Days later, Ambassador Spock of the Federation appears before the Romulan Senate to warn them about the dangers of this star.
Spock believes that if the Hobus star goes supernova, it could create a reaction that would threaten much of the Romulan Empire, and he asks the Senate to coordinate with Vulcan to find a solution. After a lengthy debate, the Senate rejects Spock's plan.
1: Offer Sela the Romulan Right of Statement. [Mentioned in Enterprise Incident]
2: Liberate Donatra from the Collective.
3: Introduce the two.
4: Record information Sela gives out.
As a side note. What would be interesting would be a "New Star Empire" under a liberated borg Donatra. Wipe out the Tal'Shiar as best as one can-they are traitors for assisting in the obliteration of Romulus. (Directly in Hakeev's case, Indirectly in other members' cases)
Ahh, Donatra. Any Romulan would be honored to serve under her.
They could then set up a mission where you could choose between this New Empire and the Republic. View I have of the New Empire is not "evil", but definately a bit grey. Note: The main thing that makes me dislike the Republic is the whole reunification angle. In my opinion it basically will lead to the complete annihilation of all it is to be Romulan. I mean the whole reason they left Vulcan is they wanted to live with their passions and not follow logic.
Even D'Tan has spoken of remaining Romulan. There's a wide spectrum of reunification between the old status quo of Romulans and Vulcans wanting to kill each other on sight and not even acknowledging they were the same species and Romulans and Vulcans moving back in together.
I think the goal is a sense of brotherhood, the ability for Romulans to set foot on their ancestral homeworld again without automatically being carted off to prison for being a spy...and it not being true.
The old Romulan ideal of Reunification, namely conquering Vulcan, wasn't any better. If D'Tan learned from Spock then he learned IDIC, and I doubt he wants to remove the diversity that his own Romulan people would bring to the table.
Now-you can have ***peace*** with Vulcan without being ahem, assimilated back into their culture, and this seems a fair way to handle it They could also do a story arc regarding the liberation of Donatra as well. If done well, this could be a way to have both Empire and Republic in the game, and make the decision for Roumlan players be "What does it mean to be Romulan?" rather then "Which foreign power do I ally with." Best part? Tal'Shiar would continue as a villain for both the Republic and New Empire
Hail Empress Donatra
I can get behind that, make a special optional to liberate Donatra in Khitomer Accord space.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
The Federation of 2410 is more about pragmatism, gunboat diplomacy, and political double-speak. More so than even in Kirk's time. They might still pay lip service to the ideals of the 24th Century, but do the opposite in the interest of realpolitik and security. Once her value is used up, I doubt Starfleet Command, or a good portion of the Federation civilian government, would give a damn about her.
The Federation always speaks a high talk. But they'll do what they want to when it comes down to it. They don't have an "Empire" by name, but they certainly police and bully members and potential member planets into a certain way of thinking and acting. "Freedom" is only freedom as defined by their Human-specific charter.
Either way, they can go about politics however they want, so long as they don't try to pressure the Republic into following their rules.
No, she wasn't responsible for the Big Boom. But there are hints that she was aware of Hakeev's activities and the Elachi "harvests". But as long as it didn't affect Romulan inhabited worlds under her thumb, she didn't give two-****s. The same applies to her "devil's bargain" with the Hirogen.
That was my thinking as well. At the end of the day, less non-RSE Romulans - be they Republic or independent - is a better thing for her. Serving warm bodies up to the Elachi just made her masters happy, and letting Hakeev have subjects for Borg adaptation kept the Tal Shiar interested and "productive' by their own sick definitions. For her, it was a win-win-win.
The RR are like puppie following there masters around they aren't equal in terms of species or a faction if they were equal there would have there own defence force. But since the kdf and feds helped them all they do is suck up to them which is really annoying and D'Tan is not romulan in my opinion.
The RRF is a Republic defence force, and we're building our own unique fleet. The Aelahl, Faeht, Ar'kif, Command BCs... all those are Republic designs. The only thing the RSE has pumped out recently is old ships with Borg adaptations.
And I have yet to see D'Tan suck up to either the Federation or Klingon Empire. The Republic stood its ground very well on sovereignty, specifically in the Solanae Sphere for example. And D'Tan is always present at multilateral talks as a separate entity.
D'Tan being a Federation puppet is an old, tired, and failed argument.
Did we need a new home we had many developed colonies Rator Virinat places where romulas had home...
Rator is the capital of the defunct RSE, and Virinat was ruined by the Tal Shiar / Elachi raid. New Romulus is a symbolic location as well as a strategic one - it's a new home, free of any preconceptions or connections to the old RSE. And it's a staging ground for outward growth and rebuilding.
2: Liberate Donatra from the Collective.
...
Hail Empress Donatra
Regardless of what Donatra becomes, we need to free her. She was a central figure in some of the original post-RSE efforts. If anything, we need her military experience to help us go forward. But I think at the end of the day, we just owe her and need to get her back.
Think I might need to add that to my signature now
Even D'Tan has spoken of remaining Romulan. There's a wide spectrum of reunification between the old status quo of Romulans and Vulcans wanting to kill each other on sight and not even acknowledging they were the same species and Romulans and Vulcans moving back in together.
Reunification is not the goal of all Romulans, and D'Tan knows that. He clearly feels the ancestral bond between Romulan and Vulcan peoples, and I admire him for that. But I admire him more for putting his personal ideals aside for the good of Romulans everywhere. He's built the Republic as priority number one, and put his personal goals on the back burner for now.
I'm sure he's excited over not being at a stalemate with the Federation anymore, and having free passage over the Neutral Zone. But he's shown himself so far to be Romulan first, as he's etching out a role for the Republic in the new galactic order. Again, I go back to the Solanae Sphere, the fact we're leading the Delta Expedition, and so on.
I'll gladly stand with him when he shakes the hands of the Vulcan delegation whenever we officially sign off on putting aside the differences of our peoples. But I also trust that he'll sign that document of friendship and cooperation with the Republic's seal.
I still don't feel that the Tal Shiar have replaced the entire Imperial Military.
All references to 'Romulan military' have been replaced with 'Tal Shiar'. By this point. The Romulan mercenary in the Klingon tutorial was made into Tal Shiar assassins, The Romulan Commander in 'The Return' was turned into Tal Shiar, etc.
At one point the explicitly state it, but I don't remember in which episode exactly.
She acted covertly in the shows because she wasn't in control. She managed plots. A single Commander doesn't have the clout to go to full scale war.
And in addition overt we act first action has never been Romulan style. Even in game Sela looks for pretexts to justify offensive action.
Less violent then she is post-LoR. Pre LoR it's stated that she uses diplomacy first and force only when necessary. Imperial policy post LoR is quite the opposite.
Well no of course not. Though that's immaterial as they're just glue between the Tal Shiar and the Iconians.
It added another layer of idiocy to the Tal Shiar and the Empire. Feeding their own people willy-nilly on the flimsiest of pretenses to build a mushroom army. It's completely counter-productive to the goal of rebuilding the empire, and the survival off the species.
Attacking Vulcan AGAIN. That's perfectly in character for Sela and normal. She was operating under the false idea that Vulcan's unwillingness to help was the reason for Romulus' destruction.
As far as the breakaway faction, it's equally logical that the Republic existed before breaking away simply because pulling that all together in such a short time is equally incredulous.
I will continue to contend that as much of the RSE forces were absorbed into the Republic as were the Tal Shiar. That said, that would've made a good mission showing that, with Romulan characters convincing RSE officers to join the Republic.
She's not just trying to stage a coup like she was in reunification though. She's trying to destroy the entire planet. Post-LoR Sela is as nutty as Shinzon.
Well, pre-LoR There was no republic. D'Tan's faction controlled the entirety of New Romulus, and that was it. So it there wasn't very much that needed to be pulled together. Plus they had help from the Federation, Klingons, Obisek, and possibly (covertly) the Tal Shiar.
It's possible, but for the most part such Romulans are inexplicably missing from both the Tal Shiar and the Republic.
What has she done that was evil for the sake of evil?
Don't blur her with Hakeev, who did plenty of things behind her back. Even the new missions explicitly show that they didn't get along.
As a matter of fact along your line of reasoning it's possible that the RSE forces actually expended a huge amount of their number in the attack on Vulcan...an attack that Hakeev and the Tal Shiar sat out of.
They might not get along, but she still relies on him as her right hand man, her muscle, etc. She approves and supports the majority of his reprehensible actions, such as the borg drone conversions, massacring civilians for no reason, and possibly the elachii abductions and conversions as well. None of these help her strengthen the RSE in the slightest, and are in fact, quite counter productive.
I'll back you on that in places. They actually removed the missions that showed the sane Romulans. As much as I hated Divide et Impera for the mind numbingly stupid decision forced on our Captains, the benevolent Romulan officers working to stop the Undine were excellent and perfectly in line with Romulan behavior.
As for Taelus you've got me there. If I'm not mistaken though she's also the first RSE officer who was shown experimenting with Borg technology in the same vein as the Tal Shiar.
Actually, in the old episode, there were no borg drones. The Romulan captain was guilty of nothing more than integrating Borg technology into her ship. Much like in the episode where one destroys the Borgified Romulan vessels in dock...originally there was no slave labor/borg drone conversions going on inside the station. A lot of players used to point out how hypocritical it was of the (federation in particular) players to 'police' the Romulans in such a manner when we had Omega Force. So where before we had a morally ambiguous situation, now we have crazy Dr Frankensteins.
And I have yet to see D'Tan suck up to either the Federation or Klingon Empire. The Republic stood its ground very well on sovereignty, specifically in the Solanae Sphere for example. And D'Tan is always present at multilateral talks as a separate entity.
D'Tan being a Federation puppet is an old, tired, and failed argument.
As a romulan ive seen several instances where d'tan shows indeed he is romulan with his own agendas that are not parallel to those of either the KDF or Federation.
He has already proven ruthless in his manner when acquiring iconian technology he has proven deceptive in his dealing with both the KDF and federation.
Its my opinion that D'tan has his own view of the RR in the future but is using both federation and KDF to get there promising both sides access to romulan technology which is already outdated by RRs new technology standards.
She is feigning innocence far too often. It has been made clear that she is a danger to everyone and is also a catalyst to war. Should she live, she will finish her work with Borg technology successfully. should she die, Romulans will declare war on the federation which is likely to be turned into a Galaxy-Wide war.
Or there will be 2 Borg factions and more of those stupid impossible running Borg drones that kill me in seconds before I can take one down *nag*nag*nag*
The Federation always speaks a high talk. But they'll do what they want to when it comes down to it. They don't have an "Empire" by name, but they certainly police and bully members and potential member planets into a certain way of thinking and acting. "Freedom" is only freedom as defined by their Human-specific charter.
Either way, they can go about politics however they want, so long as they don't try to pressure the Republic into following their rules.
Bully members? Where?
The Federation has rules. Rules for entry and rules for being a member. Those who don't meed the standards and practices for being a member don't get in. Those who don't maintain get shown the door.
And different nations pressure each other all the time, that's international relations. Don't act like the Republic isn't going to pressure the Federation or the Empire in the future.
The RRF is a Republic defence force, and we're building our own unique fleet. The Aelahl, Faeht, Ar'kif, Command BCs... all those are Republic designs. The only thing the RSE has pumped out recently is old ships with Borg adaptations.
And I have yet to see D'Tan suck up to either the Federation or Klingon Empire. The Republic stood its ground very well on sovereignty, specifically in the Solanae Sphere for example. And D'Tan is always present at multilateral talks as a separate entity.
D'Tan being a Federation puppet is an old, tired, and failed argument.
Beautifully said.
Rator is the capital of the defunct RSE, and Virinat was ruined by the Tal Shiar / Elachi raid. New Romulus is a symbolic location as well as a strategic one - it's a new home, free of any preconceptions or connections to the old RSE. And it's a staging ground for outward growth and rebuilding.
Dewa III also has historic significance being one of the places the Romulan Migrant Fleet touched down on their way to Romulus. If the radiation levels then had been where they are today, Dewa III would be Old Romulus instead of New Romulus.
Regardless of what Donatra becomes, we need to free her. She was a central figure in some of the original post-RSE efforts. If anything, we need her military experience to help us go forward. But I think at the end of the day, we just owe her and need to get her back.
Think I might need to add that to my signature now
I agree and cosign this sentiment.
Reunification is not the goal of all Romulans, and D'Tan knows that. He clearly feels the ancestral bond between Romulan and Vulcan peoples, and I admire him for that. But I admire him more for putting his personal ideals aside for the good of Romulans everywhere. He's built the Republic as priority number one, and put his personal goals on the back burner for now.
I'm sure he's excited over not being at a stalemate with the Federation anymore, and having free passage over the Neutral Zone. But he's shown himself so far to be Romulan first, as he's etching out a role for the Republic in the new galactic order. Again, I go back to the Solanae Sphere, the fact we're leading the Delta Expedition, and so on.
I'll gladly stand with him when he shakes the hands of the Vulcan delegation whenever we officially sign off on putting aside the differences of our peoples. But I also trust that he'll sign that document of friendship and cooperation with the Republic's seal.
All references to 'Romulan military' have been replaced with 'Tal Shiar'. By this point. The Romulan mercenary in the Klingon tutorial was made into Tal Shiar assassins, The Romulan Commander in 'The Return' was turned into Tal Shiar, etc.
At one point the explicitly state it, but I don't remember in which episode exactly.
That's sloppy in my view then. That said Tal Shiar assassins make much more sense don't you think?
Less violent then she is post-LoR. Pre LoR it's stated that she uses diplomacy first and force only when necessary. Imperial policy post LoR is quite the opposite.
Diplomacy to cloak her dagger. In the immortal words of Ironhide, "The only time Decepticons call a truce is when they need time to reload."
It added another layer of idiocy to the Tal Shiar and the Empire. Feeding their own people willy-nilly on the flimsiest of pretenses to build a mushroom army. It's completely counter-productive to the goal of rebuilding the empire, and the survival off the species.
Very Totalitarian. If you aren't loyal to the empire then you are not part of the empire and expendable.
She's not just trying to stage a coup like she was in reunification though. She's trying to destroy the entire planet. Post-LoR Sela is as nutty as Shinzon.
Well, pre-LoR There was no republic. D'Tan's faction controlled the entirety of New Romulus, and that was it. So it there wasn't very much that needed to be pulled together. Plus they had help from the Federation, Klingons, Obisek, and possibly (covertly) the Tal Shiar.
It's possible, but for the most part such Romulans are inexplicably missing from both the Tal Shiar and the Republic.
She's not like Shinzon. She's like Nero.
Well it is telling that the Romulan story starts two weeks before the Federation story. The idea is that they literally just found this planet. Even when Season 7 New Romulus first hit, the idea is that they just got there. D'Tans faction is the Republic, it just didn't have that name.
Well the difference between the Tal Shiar and everyone else is just a uniform. It's just not spelled out.
They might not get along, but she still relies on him as her right hand man, her muscle, etc. She approves and supports the majority of his reprehensible actions, such as the borg drone conversions, massacring civilians for no reason, and possibly the elachii abductions and conversions as well. None of these help her strengthen the RSE in the slightest, and are in fact, quite counter productive.
Left hand I'd say.
Sela has never been all that bright truthfully, that's why I first said they really made her into a badass. This is the same Romulan that had Picard, Spock, and Data captured in her office and then left them in their alone with no guards. But she is a blonde. :rolleyes:
Actually, in the old episode, there were no borg drones. The Romulan captain was guilty of nothing more than integrating Borg technology into her ship. Much like in the episode where one destroys the Borgified Romulan vessels in dock...originally there was no slave labor/borg drone conversions going on inside the station. A lot of players used to point out how hypocritical it was of the (federation in particular) players to 'police' the Romulans in such a manner when we had Omega Force. So where before we had a morally ambiguous situation, now we have crazy Dr Frankensteins.
I KNOW THAT. I did play it. I was strictly referring to the Republic officers.
I thought the Caeliar were stupid too.
*fist bump*
But my point remains that Cryptic was not beholden to the whims of authors that came before.
Well no of course not.
I was saying they should be beholden to the Path to 2409 which is where I get my references.
That scene also introduced the idea that Sela was aware of the Iconians and was working with Hakeev, it was a bit of a jolt at the time.
I imagine him talking about the Iconians was part of his sales pitch. But looking at their interactions she never seemed sold on the idea. I can't imagine her ego allowing her to grovel at the Iconian's feet like Hakeev liked to do.
Limited compared to what they were pre-LoR storyline.
Limited compared to what was shown in the show too.
If you think about it considering all the fracturing the Imperial military and government underwent between the Imperial Romulan State, the supernova, etc. the Tal Shiar would likely be the only part of the Romulan infrastructure that stayed completely intact.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
not giving her access to legal council, no contact from the outside world, if you act like this, what makes you any better than the Tal Shiar itself, for that matter what makes the republic any better, Think Carefully and Tread lightly, because the Federation will be deciding carefully on what they will do with this knowledge
not giving her access to legal council, no contact from the outside world, if you act like this, what makes you any better than the Tal Shiar itself, for that matter what makes the republic any better, Think Carefully and Tread lightly, because the Federation will be deciding carefully on what they will do with this knowledge
You're behind the times. We did end up giving her legal counsel.
Comments
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Ok... we didn't need a "NEW" home. We have many highly developed planets that aren't in Klingon space.
Seems like an iconian plot to me. No one notices this Faux Romulas for years. Then it just happens to have Iconian tech with a sphere gateway.
If D'Tan was a romulan I would say there is some plan afoot.
We did need a new home. Rator's government was a joke, devoted to Sela and blind to her crimes against fellow Romulans.
Also... pretty sure it was the RSE that was involved with the Iconians. Hence all the problems since the 2380's. That said, Dewa III turned out to be the former home of another Iconian servant race. We learned a lot from what we found there.
Also, the Dewa system is well in Romulan space. It's close to the Federation and Klingon borders, yes, but still well in the green zone. But for the record, take a look at the Tau Dewa and Psi Velorum sector maps. The RSE's precious 'home' of Rator is actually much closer to its section of the Neutral Zone with the Federation than New Romulus is to its own - by about half a sector length.
I disagree, it *was* Cryptic that killed it.
If you have played prior to LoR, its a bit more obvious. The RSE as written in STO has always been a bit ...unpleasant, thanks in no small part to the invention of the character Hakeev.
However, pre-LoR Hakeev and Sela were not in league (never even shared any dialogue together), Sela had a long-running feud with the Tal Shiar stemming from the leader of the Tal Shiar framing her for murder and getting her exiled. Sela was not in League with the Iconians, and it's pretty heavily implied-had no knowledge of Hakeev or the Iconian's actions in the destruction of the homeworld.
There was no experimentation with borg technology on prisoners of war or civilians. The Empire was not abducting citizens to turn into mushrooms at the behest of the Iconians, and in contrast to her portrayal post-LoR, Sela was known to use diplomacy, rather than force as a first option for reintegrating colonies into the empire. The armed forces of the Empire were not replaced by the Tal Shiar. There was no civil war between the Republic and the Empire because the Republic only came into being in the chaos after Sela's disappearance and only the Tal Shiar was involved in the sabotage operations on NR.
So yes, I do think the Empire's current awful portrayal lays squarely at the the feet of Cryptic. They quite clearly chose the direction that they took...nothing that they did to the Romulans in STO was in any way 'necessary' or an 'inevitability'...considering they heavily re-wrote the existing Romulan storyline to get it where it is today.
Cryptic set the Empire up to be the 'Black hat' to the Republic's 'White hat' by making the the Empire comically self-destructively evil and making the Republic into a generic 'rebel alliance' faction. Absolutely nothing subtle or amazing in writing such a simplistic rewrite, IMO. I don't hate Hakeev or the new Sela or Empire, I roll my eyes at them.
Hopefully this new episode shows a change in the way the wind is blowing, at the very worst I think we could expect something where the PC has no input on the moral message of the episode, like we did in the last one with the Kobali.
Actually, that Picard was erased from the timeline, so he never existed. Which, of course, makes him even harder to prosecute.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
All those colony worlds started fighting amongst themselves and none of them won...well maybe Rator III, but away from there how many Romulans did Sela really take care of?
That just shows ignorance to what's been told. The Romulan people settled on Dewa III centuries ago, they just couldn't stay because of the radiation.
But according to you he isn't so why worry about it?
So they're forbidden from creating new villains?
I would argue they were barely in league post Legacy of Romulus.
She was completely exiled prior to the Hobus Supernova, she's legitimately innocent of that and I think if she had known, she would've had his head.
Knowing Sela though I still think she would've used it as a pretext for war against Vulcan and the Federation.
So unless the Iconians brainwashed her and are using her as a Manchurian Candidate (ironic considering what she did to Geordi) she can be reasonably assumed to not be on their side.
Sela's diplomacy is suspect at best though. Recall this is the woman who attempted to use Spock to covertly land a Romulan invasion force on Vulcan using the ploy that Unificationists were sending a peace convoy. Using force isn't foreign to her in canon. She's also the woman who intervened in the Kklingon Civil War. So the current Sela isn't acting out of character.
But, of course we can't necessarily pin ALL of Hakeev's crimes on Sela as she didn't have the full breadth of information. Though if you hear Taris tell it, Hakeev tricked her too and she didn't know the science experiment he had going at Hobus would annihilate the homeworld. We're still not letting her off the hook.
The fact of the matter is that Sela was running a protection racket with the Tal Shiar, offering her protection for pledging loyalty to her and if they didn't she would have the Tal Shiar (and unbeknownst to her the Elachi) raid their colony. Naked assaults on unarmed civilians is bad enough.
The Imperial forces and the Tal Shiar forces are indeed separate but they were allied and cooperating. Which makes sense as the Tal Shiar has always been the Imperial Secret police so calling them separate is equally fallacious. You can call them an out of control intelligence agency, but that's the same answer you would've gotten from any Imperial Navy officer for the last century.
The Republic didn't just pop up out of nowhere, but instead was steadily growing, and only recently it gained enough political capital to stand on its own after Virinat. That's before the Battle of Brea however where Sela disappeared, so there was a period where both factions were in existence at the same time. At that time Sela was trying to use political maneuvers to remove the Republic...unfortunately one of those maneuvers was attacking Vulcan.
I would argue that part of the reason for the rewrite is that before they didn't have access to Denise Crosby and the ability to work with her and so they naturally expanded Sela's role in the game to reflect the opportunity.
And Sela has always been a villain, and with the Empire under her control them being antagonistic was an inevitable situation.
So you create the Republic and then suddenly Sela is not the only game in town. So every Romulan like the Romulan Commanders in Balance of Terror and the Chase, Admiral Jarok, and Commander Donatra who don't believe that the Romulan's path is necessarily through bloodshed, conquest, and deceit leaves the Empire to create a new nation for their people.
That leaves Sela with basically the worst of the worst, the most hardcore conquerors, the most vicious warriors, racists, xenophobes, and the Tal Shiar. And to be empress she had to control all of them.
It holds up to internal logic in that regard. Her working with the Tal Shiar may have been stupid overall, but I see it as a relationship of necessity and one she wasn't pleased with. Better to have them in her corner than acting independently.
This is also following the novel continuity of the Romulan civil war after Nemesis between Donatra and Tal'aura. That said, carrying through the idea of the Imperial Romulan State wouldn't have been a bad path. Though I like the idea of the Republic. As Romulus has the Rome theme, it represents getting back to basics.
That could be interesting, we'll have to wait and see.
No just pointing out that he's one of the main contributors to the lower IQ-mustache-twirling status of the RSE.
Hakeev begin her right hand and the Tal Shiar replacing the Imperial military in its entirety is still a big difference between Pre LoR and post LoR.
Still better than just wiping out entire colonies at the drop of a hat. It showed she had more than two brain cells to rub together, IMO. And showed that she at least preferred to settle things nonviolently where possible. Sela from the shows at least tried to act covertly. New Sela is anythign but.
Again, Elachii didn't exist at all prior to LoR.
'Normal' Imperial forces don't exist post-LoR. They were dissolved and absorbed into the Tal Shiar in their entirety. Tal Shiar was also explicitly not in control of policy. The leader of the Tal Shiar says as much on New Romulus...their goal is explicitly a new Romulan Govt ruled by the Tal Shiar.
Attacking Vulcan is a new Episode. Again, prior to LoR, there was no Republic in the story. There was 'D'tan's faction' but it wasn't called the republic, and was explicitly mentioned as being a breakaway faction emerging from the chaos of Sela's disappearance. There was no period in the old storyline where D'Tan's faction existed while Sela was in power.
She was always a villain. This is true. But her actions in STO are mind-numbingly counter productive. Evil for the sake of evil garbage.
Pre LoR you had more sane Imperial enemies. Just compare the old Romulan captain from 'The Return' to her new version. No subtlety whatsoever in the new faction. They are almost all insane lunatics hellbent on destroying their own species.
If we were going by 'novel continuity' Sela and Taris would be long dead. The borg wouldn't exist either. Cryptic has demonstrated that they don't feel beholden to the novels or comic books, so I don't really see that as much of an argument. Then can (and have) shown a willingness to deviate drastically whenever they want.
Indeed.
Suppose I can't comment a whole lot on pre-LoR content, 'cause I only came into the game after LoR.
But to me, that sounds like an evolution of both states - D'Tan's faction into the full Republic, and the total dominance of the Tal Shiar in the current RSE. Of course there were some retroactive changes in the storyline, but it does sound like the end result was a development of both entities as the STO story progressed.
So by the end of the 'main' storyline, the RSE is almost entirely a Tal Shiar state that is wholly connected to the atrocities against other colonies, as well as the Elachi / Iconian allegiance. Whereas early on, there were some remaining bits of the original RSE that had yet to be consumed by Hakeev and Sela - both using their own methods, and for their own malicious purposes.
Pre LoR, the Tal Shiar was part of the government, but their political power is implied to be extremely limited thanks to The Empress's rivalry with them.
After Sela's disappearance, the RSE leadership fragments, and go back to infighting among themselves. D'Tan's (essentially) reunificationists break away and distance themselves from this infighting, which leads them to being one of the more powerful factions overall (since they didn't weaken themselves with infighting, and are getting aid from the Federation and KDF). The Tal Shiar want to insinuate themselves into D'Tan's faction and rule from behind the scenes, which they were not capable of with Sela in power, and make D'Tan Emperor..they may be sabotaging the other Romulan factions to facilitate D'tan's faction becoming the most powerful...the captives in the Tal Shiar base on New Romulus are all RSE military personnel. But before any of their plans can come to fruition, they are stopped by the PC, and the leader of the Tal Shiar (NOT Hakeev) is captured. This basically ends the threat of the Tal Shiar as a power, since the NR operation was supposed to be a last gasp hail mary sort of attempt to gain control.
The Star Empire continues to exist, but don't seem interested in either New Romulus or pursuing war with the federation or Klingons. When we next see them, they are noncombative, and will basically call you out for being a bully and if you try to confiscate their borg research. So the Star Empire was licking its wounds, but recovering (with an unknown individual or individuals in power on Rator)
The Pre-LoR Romulan Storyline in a nutshell.
So I wouldn't necessarily say that it's a natural evolution-Pre LoR the Tal Shiar were relatively weak, and were destroyed essentially in their entirety in their last-gasp attempt to take over New Romulus, while the Empire itself outlived them, and the Empire itself was much closer to the old RSE rather than the Tal Shiar asylum it is now.
RR won the war, RSE lost. History is written by Victors not losers, not happy? Retake Power from RR then, no wait you can't.
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
Hat tip for the detailed information there, thanks!
I guess one way to look at it then (besides the obvious re-writing that happened for LoR) is that A) as the Republic allied with the Federation and KDF, both those governments got a much more in-depth look at what was really going on behind the Neutral Zone than they'd previously experienced, and
At least that's my way of reconciling the two stories, at first thought.
I would like to hope that once we get some face time with the Iconians we'll get to see why setting off the galactic strategic equivalent of Tsar Bomba and wiping Romulus off the face the Milky Way was required to bring back the Iconians.
I will give credit for Cryptic's continuity choice of placing Taris in the center of the Iconian dealings as she was the Romulan Warbird commander present when Iconia was discovered.
I still don't feel that the Tal Shiar have replaced the entire Imperial Military.
I don't buy Sela as non-Violent.
She acted covertly in the shows because she wasn't in control. She managed plots. A single Commander doesn't have the clout to go to full scale war.
And in addition overt we act first action has never been Romulan style. Even in game Sela looks for pretexts to justify offensive action. Well no of course not. Though that's immaterial as they're just glue between the Tal Shiar and the Iconians.
Attacking Vulcan AGAIN. That's perfectly in character for Sela and normal. She was operating under the false idea that Vulcan's unwillingness to help was the reason for Romulus' destruction.
As far as the breakaway faction, it's equally logical that the Republic existed before breaking away simply because pulling that all together in such a short time is equally incredulous.
I will continue to contend that as much of the RSE forces were absorbed into the Republic as were the Tal Shiar. That said, that would've made a good mission showing that, with Romulan characters convincing RSE officers to join the Republic.
What has she done that was evil for the sake of evil?
Don't blur her with Hakeev, who did plenty of things behind her back. Even the new missions explicitly show that they didn't get along.
As a matter of fact along your line of reasoning it's possible that the RSE forces actually expended a huge amount of their number in the attack on Vulcan...an attack that Hakeev and the Tal Shiar sat out of.
I'll back you on that in places. They actually removed the missions that showed the sane Romulans. As much as I hated Divide et Impera for the mind numbingly stupid decision forced on our Captains, the benevolent Romulan officers working to stop the Undine were excellent and perfectly in line with Romulan behavior.
As for Taelus you've got me there. If I'm not mistaken though she's also the first RSE officer who was shown experimenting with Borg technology in the same vein as the Tal Shiar.
I don't blame them for that. But I hated the Caeliar storyline with a passion so I was glad to see it go.
I was just saying the Typhon Pact is a better direction.
Still in Post LoR she was then shown pulling the plug.
I've never thought of the Tal Shiar's power as "limited".
All correct, though the Tal Shiar weakening the other factions to improve D'Tan's position would be good, that would require them to actually show the other factions. Ironically the Romulans would've benefited from some of the clan politics in the Klingon's Empire series.
And yes the NR operation was the death knell of the Tal Shiar.
It should be noted that the Romulan Star Empire symbol still occupies the northern stretch of sector space on the season 10 map. So perhaps Cryptic will revive them in the future.
That's a fair assessment.
I never said it was the Imperium of Man.
But it isn't the impossibly white-hat, mary-sue of The Next Generation.
The Federation of 2410 is more about pragmatism, gunboat diplomacy, and political double-speak. More so than even in Kirk's time. They might still pay lip service to the ideals of the 24th Century, but do the opposite in the interest of realpolitik and security. Once her value is used up, I doubt Starfleet Command, or a good portion of the Federation civilian government, would give a damn about her.
And I believe that pragmatism is what kept Taris from being turned over to the Star Empire, or the later Republic. She had too many juicy secrets swirling in her despicable head. She was more valuable still breathing in the long run. If she was released to the custody of one of the above? Hakeev or Sela would have seen her dead before she even crossed the old Neutral Zone. And as soon as she stepped off of the shuttle on New Romulus, she would be facing a lynch mob of epic proportions.
I wouldn't. Remember the whole Kelso Affair? The UFP, in the interest of maneuvering the political and diplomatic battlefields, will make high minded proclamations and lofty public statements. But when it's time to be pragmatic, and the interests/ security of the UFP is at stake, all of that lofty TRIBBLE goes out the door.
I agree that physical torture is notoriously unreliable. However, there are other methods to extract intelligence if she starts playing too many games. And no matter how well trained Sela is to resist interrogation, everybody has a breaking point. A good interrogation team WOULD find Sela's breaking point.
Agreed. And for the record, Spock has a history of being somewhat pragmatic at times, and wasn't blinded by idealism. D'Tan learned well from the master.
No, she wasn't responsible for the Big Boom. But there are hints that she was aware of Hakeev's activities and the Elachi "harvests". But as long as it didn't affect Romulan inhabited worlds under her thumb, she didn't give two-****s. The same applies to her "devil's bargain" with the Hirogen.
That makes her just as bad as Hakeev and Taris, as far as I'm concern. As long as her position of power wasn't threatened, she condoned, by inaction and guilty knowledge, mass murder, attempted genocide, and treason among the major players of the Star Empire.
Most of my Starfleet characters, especially my hard-TRIBBLE original, thinks she would look good at the end of a noose. But in their back stories, they tend to be hard due to forty years of chaos and conflict. Not to mention, some of the TRIBBLE they've seen in their adventures. However, they are aware of her intelligence value. But once she's no longer an asset, she can rot for all they care.
That's what I want to know. Obisek is made of AWESOME and WIN.
Send her to Rura Penthe from the get-go. The mind-numbing, cold steel isolation of Facility 4028 is too good for the *****.
If they do that my romiulan toon would be deleted. I personally made a kdf rom as I didnt like the way that RR seem to goody two shoes not the sneaky and scheming romulans I know and love.
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
+1 for this
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The RR are like puppie following there masters around they aren't equal in terms of species or a faction if they were equal there would have there own defence force. But since the kdf and feds helped them all they do is suck up to them which is really annoying and D'Tan is not romulan in my opinion. He is a Vulcan in romulan clothing and not someone I would choose to rule the new RSE.
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Did we need a new home we had many developed colonies Rator Virinat places where romulas had home and we would have not needed that if the Vulcans had got of there asses earler and gave the Spock the red matter instead of wasting time. I don't condemn Spock as he did everything he could to save his adopted planet but the destruction of romulus and remus caused the people two split. One who stayed true romulans and ones who became puppy dogs to federation and there kdf master race.
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Interesting that you should mention Virinat. The Empire had plenty of colony worlds...at least until the Tal Shiar were finished with them.
And the Vulcans didn't just deliberately sit and wait for the supernova to hit Romulus. They just weren't expecting it to move as quickly as it did.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
1: Offer Sela the Romulan Right of Statement. [Mentioned in Enterprise Incident]
2: Liberate Donatra from the Collective.
3: Introduce the two.
4: Record information Sela gives out.
As a side note. What would be interesting would be a "New Star Empire" under a liberated borg Donatra. Wipe out the Tal'Shiar as best as one can-they are traitors for assisting in the obliteration of Romulus. (Directly in Hakeev's case, Indirectly in other members' cases)
They could then set up a mission where you could choose between this New Empire and the Republic. View I have of the New Empire is not "evil", but definately a bit grey. Note: The main thing that makes me dislike the Republic is the whole reunification angle. In my opinion it basically will lead to the complete annihilation of all it is to be Romulan. I mean the whole reason they left Vulcan is they wanted to live with their passions and not follow logic.
Now-you can have ***peace*** with Vulcan without being ahem, assimilated back into their culture, and this seems a fair way to handle it They could also do a story arc regarding the liberation of Donatra as well. If done well, this could be a way to have both Empire and Republic in the game, and make the decision for Roumlan players be "What does it mean to be Romulan?" rather then "Which foreign power do I ally with." Best part? Tal'Shiar would continue as a villain for both the Republic and New Empire
Hail Empress Donatra
I actually violently disagree with the assessment of a white hat or Mary Sue baby Federation. We Romulans aren't good at that anyway. No. You're wrong. Once her intelligence value is exhausted unless she by some miracle managed to work a deal, it would be trial time for Sela.
But what makes you think they give a damn about her in the first place?
Sela would've killed her, Hakeev would've rescued her as they were on the same page, and you're completely right about the New Romulus inhabitants. Ideals be damned this is the Romulan temper here.
A fascinating rehash. It's just a replay of The Pegasus incident. Admiral Okeg said that while the treaties were gone, the commitment to peace was still there.
As much as I love the Path to 2409, I'm generally pissed that Cryptic hasn't followed up on them. A simple note that the Jenolan Accords, or the Dyson Joint Command agreement allowed Starfleet vessels to equip cloaking devices would've cleared that up easily. As it stands it's gameplay and story segregation so we can have canon cloaking Defiants and Galaxy-Xs.
I think they're taking there time. The isolation and boredom are preparatory rather than the whole method.
Spock has a mean game of dirty pool and a very irritating game of chess.
It's not what she did or didn't know, but what she didn't bother to find out. I think she was legit appalled that they were turning Romulans into Elachi. But that's her fault for not keeping her dog on his leash.
Well that's longer than mine have been alive, but in general my main's code of honor finds torture rather distasteful and wasteful, and killing her to be perfectly acceptable. His people (human though an independent colony) as a rule never torture for information. Torture for execution yes, but never for information.
Yep Yep Yep.
I know Obisek would decline to interrogate her, and I'm sure that he's settling in to not being a freedom fighter anymore, but building a new home, but I'm expecting his guilty vote when she's brought before the Republic Senate.
I'd rather have her wishing for Facility 4028 while she's in Rura Penthe. Maybe reopen Hfihar and let her work for Madran.
I think it should be noted that the Romulan Imperial Senate rejected Spock's offers of assistance.
Ahh, Donatra. Any Romulan would be honored to serve under her.
Even D'Tan has spoken of remaining Romulan. There's a wide spectrum of reunification between the old status quo of Romulans and Vulcans wanting to kill each other on sight and not even acknowledging they were the same species and Romulans and Vulcans moving back in together.
I think the goal is a sense of brotherhood, the ability for Romulans to set foot on their ancestral homeworld again without automatically being carted off to prison for being a spy...and it not being true.
The old Romulan ideal of Reunification, namely conquering Vulcan, wasn't any better. If D'Tan learned from Spock then he learned IDIC, and I doubt he wants to remove the diversity that his own Romulan people would bring to the table.
I can get behind that, make a special optional to liberate Donatra in Khitomer Accord space.
The Federation always speaks a high talk. But they'll do what they want to when it comes down to it. They don't have an "Empire" by name, but they certainly police and bully members and potential member planets into a certain way of thinking and acting. "Freedom" is only freedom as defined by their Human-specific charter.
Either way, they can go about politics however they want, so long as they don't try to pressure the Republic into following their rules.
That was my thinking as well. At the end of the day, less non-RSE Romulans - be they Republic or independent - is a better thing for her. Serving warm bodies up to the Elachi just made her masters happy, and letting Hakeev have subjects for Borg adaptation kept the Tal Shiar interested and "productive' by their own sick definitions. For her, it was a win-win-win.
The RRF is a Republic defence force, and we're building our own unique fleet. The Aelahl, Faeht, Ar'kif, Command BCs... all those are Republic designs. The only thing the RSE has pumped out recently is old ships with Borg adaptations.
And I have yet to see D'Tan suck up to either the Federation or Klingon Empire. The Republic stood its ground very well on sovereignty, specifically in the Solanae Sphere for example. And D'Tan is always present at multilateral talks as a separate entity.
D'Tan being a Federation puppet is an old, tired, and failed argument.
Rator is the capital of the defunct RSE, and Virinat was ruined by the Tal Shiar / Elachi raid. New Romulus is a symbolic location as well as a strategic one - it's a new home, free of any preconceptions or connections to the old RSE. And it's a staging ground for outward growth and rebuilding.
Regardless of what Donatra becomes, we need to free her. She was a central figure in some of the original post-RSE efforts. If anything, we need her military experience to help us go forward. But I think at the end of the day, we just owe her and need to get her back.
Think I might need to add that to my signature now
Reunification is not the goal of all Romulans, and D'Tan knows that. He clearly feels the ancestral bond between Romulan and Vulcan peoples, and I admire him for that. But I admire him more for putting his personal ideals aside for the good of Romulans everywhere. He's built the Republic as priority number one, and put his personal goals on the back burner for now.
I'm sure he's excited over not being at a stalemate with the Federation anymore, and having free passage over the Neutral Zone. But he's shown himself so far to be Romulan first, as he's etching out a role for the Republic in the new galactic order. Again, I go back to the Solanae Sphere, the fact we're leading the Delta Expedition, and so on.
I'll gladly stand with him when he shakes the hands of the Vulcan delegation whenever we officially sign off on putting aside the differences of our peoples. But I also trust that he'll sign that document of friendship and cooperation with the Republic's seal.
All references to 'Romulan military' have been replaced with 'Tal Shiar'. By this point. The Romulan mercenary in the Klingon tutorial was made into Tal Shiar assassins, The Romulan Commander in 'The Return' was turned into Tal Shiar, etc.
At one point the explicitly state it, but I don't remember in which episode exactly.
Less violent then she is post-LoR. Pre LoR it's stated that she uses diplomacy first and force only when necessary. Imperial policy post LoR is quite the opposite.
It added another layer of idiocy to the Tal Shiar and the Empire. Feeding their own people willy-nilly on the flimsiest of pretenses to build a mushroom army. It's completely counter-productive to the goal of rebuilding the empire, and the survival off the species.
She's not just trying to stage a coup like she was in reunification though. She's trying to destroy the entire planet. Post-LoR Sela is as nutty as Shinzon.
Well, pre-LoR There was no republic. D'Tan's faction controlled the entirety of New Romulus, and that was it. So it there wasn't very much that needed to be pulled together. Plus they had help from the Federation, Klingons, Obisek, and possibly (covertly) the Tal Shiar.
It's possible, but for the most part such Romulans are inexplicably missing from both the Tal Shiar and the Republic.
They might not get along, but she still relies on him as her right hand man, her muscle, etc. She approves and supports the majority of his reprehensible actions, such as the borg drone conversions, massacring civilians for no reason, and possibly the elachii abductions and conversions as well. None of these help her strengthen the RSE in the slightest, and are in fact, quite counter productive.
Actually, in the old episode, there were no borg drones. The Romulan captain was guilty of nothing more than integrating Borg technology into her ship. Much like in the episode where one destroys the Borgified Romulan vessels in dock...originally there was no slave labor/borg drone conversions going on inside the station. A lot of players used to point out how hypocritical it was of the (federation in particular) players to 'police' the Romulans in such a manner when we had Omega Force. So where before we had a morally ambiguous situation, now we have crazy Dr Frankensteins.
I thought the Caeliar were stupid too.
But my point remains that Cryptic was not beholden to the whims of authors that came before.
That scene also introduced the idea that Sela was aware of the Iconians and was working with Hakeev, it was a bit of a jolt at the time.
Limited compared to what they were pre-LoR storyline.
As a romulan ive seen several instances where d'tan shows indeed he is romulan with his own agendas that are not parallel to those of either the KDF or Federation.
He has already proven ruthless in his manner when acquiring iconian technology he has proven deceptive in his dealing with both the KDF and federation.
Its my opinion that D'tan has his own view of the RR in the future but is using both federation and KDF to get there promising both sides access to romulan technology which is already outdated by RRs new technology standards.
Or there will be 2 Borg factions and more of those stupid impossible running Borg drones that kill me in seconds before I can take one down *nag*nag*nag*
The Federation has rules. Rules for entry and rules for being a member. Those who don't meed the standards and practices for being a member don't get in. Those who don't maintain get shown the door.
And different nations pressure each other all the time, that's international relations. Don't act like the Republic isn't going to pressure the Federation or the Empire in the future.
Beautifully said.
Dewa III also has historic significance being one of the places the Romulan Migrant Fleet touched down on their way to Romulus. If the radiation levels then had been where they are today, Dewa III would be Old Romulus instead of New Romulus.
I agree and cosign this sentiment.
All very true.
That's sloppy in my view then. That said Tal Shiar assassins make much more sense don't you think?
Diplomacy to cloak her dagger. In the immortal words of Ironhide, "The only time Decepticons call a truce is when they need time to reload."
Very Totalitarian. If you aren't loyal to the empire then you are not part of the empire and expendable.
She's not like Shinzon. She's like Nero.
Well it is telling that the Romulan story starts two weeks before the Federation story. The idea is that they literally just found this planet. Even when Season 7 New Romulus first hit, the idea is that they just got there. D'Tans faction is the Republic, it just didn't have that name.
Well the difference between the Tal Shiar and everyone else is just a uniform. It's just not spelled out.
Left hand I'd say.
Sela has never been all that bright truthfully, that's why I first said they really made her into a badass. This is the same Romulan that had Picard, Spock, and Data captured in her office and then left them in their alone with no guards. But she is a blonde. :rolleyes:
I KNOW THAT. I did play it. I was strictly referring to the Republic officers.
*fist bump*
Well no of course not.
I was saying they should be beholden to the Path to 2409 which is where I get my references.
I imagine him talking about the Iconians was part of his sales pitch. But looking at their interactions she never seemed sold on the idea. I can't imagine her ego allowing her to grovel at the Iconian's feet like Hakeev liked to do.
Limited compared to what was shown in the show too.
If you think about it considering all the fracturing the Imperial military and government underwent between the Imperial Romulan State, the supernova, etc. the Tal Shiar would likely be the only part of the Romulan infrastructure that stayed completely intact.
You're behind the times. We did end up giving her legal counsel.
And using what little she was given, she escaped.
D'tans fault yet again his sense of "legal rights" has now allowed a dangerous war criminal to slip right through his fingers.
Incompetence will be the legacy of d'tan