It will end with me, a mind probe, a torture rack, a pistol, and many torture devices
THATS Romulan law right there
see you tommorow
No, that's not Romulan Law. It's barbarity. Romulans, be they Imperial or Republic, are a civilized people. Sela may have screwed the pooch in a galactically monumental way, but that does not call for extrajudicial means of revenge. Furthermore, it only weakens the Republic in the eyes of unaligned Romulans: if we go about torturing and violating Sela, are we not as bad as the Tal Shiar?
Why don't we want Sela brought to trial? I think there is enough evidence to secure a war crimes conviction, even if the best defense attorneys in the galaxy are defending her.
For countless moral and pragmatic reasons, Sela should be given defense counsel and preparations made to be brought to trial. Unless she wishes to strike a plea...
I hope we get the chance to testify at her trial, at least. Either in defense of her or condemning her actions.
If Kirk could get a lawyer in a Klingon court after supposedly taking part of the assassination of Gorkon, Sela should at least be able to get a Klingon, Romulan or Federation individual to defend her. Would be neat if the Player character had the option of stepping in for that.
The problem I see is that there isn't an immediate need to get that information right now, like there was with Valeris. plenty of time to get it done the normal way. Particularly with the Federation looking over the Republic's shoulder.
That depends on how imminent a threat the powers (particularly the RR) consider the possibility of an Iconian war to be. It seems to me that with the Delta Recruit push going on to prepare for it, they WOULD see the need to get any information she may have on the Iconians right now as a very high priority.
Free Sela! *Joins the movement* :P. But seriously speaking, I am glad there are those who realize that doing the same thing to Sela as she had done to others would just make us the same as herself and no better than the Tal Shiar which gives us a "Do as we want you to do or you'll be treated to a slow painful death" attitude which gives no one incentive to comply and leads to the same tyrannic behavior in ourselves as the Tal Shiar.
I want to see Sela redeem herself. This is a chance for the Romulan Republic to set itself apart from the now fallen Tal Shiar (Which also betrayed what the old Tal Shiar stood for). Give her a chance to turn things around and lose the Iconian-like hubris towards her. Approach her neutrally as one who wants to further the future of all Romulan people regardless of politics and protocol and have a civil no nonsense chat with her. I'd get it all out the right way. Pride is the fall of all powers.
"We have our latest report from the Debriefing Session 28! Please review this debriefing from the Mol'Rihan Detention Center in Maximum Security regarding Sela."
I didn't know Sela could do Jedi mind tricks I thought that was a different franchise.
*Sela hand waves** These as not the questions you are looking for. You want to ask yourself where you can get Sela a PADD so she can write her memoirs titled , "I Sela a how to book for dummies on how to manipulate the Romulan people.":P
I hope we get to see the Romulan senate room and other senators maybe they have more backbone than the Federation puppet D'tan. How I miss the days of the Empire where cunning and craftiness was the first law of rule.~.~
Nah, if they were truly acting like old school Romulans, she would be screaming in agony as a neural probe attempts to force the information she refuses to willing divulge out of her head. Right now she's just bored staring at the walls of her cell.
So. They gave her a padd that cant open anything stored on it.
How cruel.
No. They gave her a PADD whose code she cannot modify, likely disconnected from the rest of the facility's computer core. She can still open any content contained on it.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
So. They gave her a padd that cant open anything stored on it.
How cruel.
Reminds me of they hypocritical nature of these stories. Being sela of all people can't bypass a lockout on a padd lol. I mean she is more advanced than a pre-K child but even they can bypass a parental lockout on a dvr. They do not do much thinking or planning when it comes to these blogs its more so all about pointless one liner stories that just lead to a boring grind.
Reminds me of they hypocritical nature of these stories. Being sela of all people can't bypass a lockout on a padd lol. I mean she is more advanced than a pre-K child but even they can bypass a parental lockout on a dvr. They do not do much thinking or planning when it comes to these blogs its more so all about pointless one liner stories that just lead to a boring grind.
I was impressed with the previous discussion about criminal justice, how it pertains to the Sela situation, and Cryptic's portrayal of the Republic. This, however was none of those things. I have nothing to say to a mindless dev basher.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
No. They gave her a PADD whose code she cannot modify, likely disconnected from the rest of the facility's computer core. She can still open any content contained on it.
or they could just give her a book.
What right does the Federation or the Fauxpublic have to hold Sela. They should turn her over to the Star Empire for trial.
This could be seen as act of war you know. What if we kidnapped and held J'mpok?
What right does the Federation or the Fauxpublic have to hold Sela. They should turn her over to the Star Empire for trial.
This could be seen as act of war you know. What if we kidnapped and held J'mpok?
Well, what crimes has Sela committed against the Romulan Star Empire in-game?
Against the Romulan Republic, Sela committed a terror/conquest campaign (see the Virinat Arc, Crateris mission, and the mission "Cloak and Dagger"). That gives the Romulan Republic jurisdiction.
Against the Klingon Empire and its citizens, Sela attempted to mass-murder them by destroying the Khitomer base, while in-system under a flag of peace.
Against the United Federation of Planets, Sela attempted to *invade and conquer Vulcan*.
All of these actions give the three powers jurisdiction to arrest and try Sela. By contrast, Sela did not undertake overt offensive actions against the rump Romulan Star Empire.
It was emotionally draining for me as well. It was sad to see things come to that. But I also think it was Kirk and Spock's single greatest moral failure. I think Spock at least recognized that. I don't mind the scene (great acting) so much as the aftermath.
I've been thinking about what the alternative could've been.
Honestly as painful as it was, it was a fantastic moral dilemma.
The only thing I can come up with right now is the wisdom of Picard.
leagues better handling then Spock's rampant mind-melding in Nu Trek though, IMO.
I'm gonna sit down and watch Into Darkness sometime next week I think.
Yes. Hence why I don't think Kirk or Spock would have gotten prison, which would be appropriate under other circumstances, I think. I would hope that they at least got a reprimand over it. And I'd like to think that Kirks retirement became less of choice and more as a necessity after that.
I would imagine that it was in the report on the entire affair, because they made sure to put it there.
For good reason IMO. If memory serves, similar reasons were behind the rewrite of the scene when it came around to the novel. The scene comes across as very rapey in the movie.
I didn't get sexual overtones in it, primarily because my initial viewpoint of Spock and Valeris was a student-mentor relationship and that informed the interpretation. Also my age at the time things like **** never crossed my mind back then. Nowadays I can see it, but it's not my default.
Part of my point in bringing up the Spock/Valeris incident in the first place was that while (as you correctly point out) the entire bridge crew of the Enterprise - the finest group of officers in Starfleet, and our heroes for decades by that point - did look uncomfortable with it, none of them so much as lodged a protest.
Admittedly they didn't have much choice. I mean, to quote Scotty, "Then we're dead."
They were stuck behind the Klingon border, ships on both sides were likely gonna open fire on sight, they knew there was gonna be another assassination attempt, the Klingons had a new superweapon, and as Valeris said, they couldn't call any Starbase or Starfleet Command to warn anyone.
That said, I would imagine there was a senior staff meeting before her interrogation session on the bridge.
While the circumstances were of critical importance to the Federation and Klingon Empire, they PALE in comparison to the far-reaching threat of the Iconians, not only to those two powers but to everyone else: the RR, the RSE, the Undine, the Borg (liberated and un-), etc., etc., etc.
And most importantly, it's not the Federation even handling Sela, it's the RR. While the KDF would stop at nothing, and even the best of the Federation (as shown above) are at least willing to stand by and let forcible mind-probing go on if circumstances call for it, the RR should certainly be in the middle ground with a more sliding scale of justice and situational morality. They probably wouldn't go for using the Mind Sifter on jaywalkers and litterbugs (where the KDF might), but with a need to get information QUICKLY from an uber-villainess like Sela, I don't think they would even given it a second thought. In her case, and in their hands, she should have been wheeled straight into mind probe/truth serum/telepathic interrogation as soon as she arrived on New Romulus, even supposing it hadn't already been a fait accompli the second she was beamed aboard the Lleiset.
To pass off that lame conversation as Debriefing Session #28 is a joke. Heck, we have Telepathic Interrogation Technique DOFF missions for crying out loud!
[EDIT: Typo. This is not my day for typing. ]
We also have resist telepathic interrogation missions.
You know it's interesting, apparently in What's Left Behind, if you're a Betazoid, Vulcan, or other telepathic species, then Sela will tell you that her mind is so trained against telepaths and the like, there's no way to figure out what thoughts are real or what thoughts are just stuff she's made up. Kind of makes me want to roll a telepath.
Considering Romulans have been trying to go against the Vulcans for three centuries easy at this point not being able to combat telepathy would be a glaring strategic oversight.
Recall that Gul Dukat resisted a Vulcan mind meld before so it is possible.
Klingon Mind Sifters are risky business, if it works on maximum then it will wreck her brain, and if the information is false, then there are no do overs. PLUS, if her Romulan mental discipline is high enough to reach Vulcan levels, then like Spock she may be able to resist it altogether.
I would imagine a Tal Shiar mind probe could work since the Tal Shiar regularly targeted Romulans, but I would think that Sela knows how they work and would've figured out how to defeat them.
I hope we get the chance to testify at her trial, at least. Either in defense of her or condemning her actions.
If Kirk could get a lawyer in a Klingon court after supposedly taking part of the assassination of Gorkon, Sela should at least be able to get a Klingon, Romulan or Federation individual to defend her. Would be neat if the Player character had the option of stepping in for that.
I like the way you think, as well as your Final Fantasy inspired name.
The problem I see is that there isn't an immediate need to get that information right now, like there was with Valeris. plenty of time to get it done the normal way. Particularly with the Federation looking over the Republic's shoulder.
Precisely, furthermore there is actual value in acquiring Sela's cooperation in going about this.
It may only be one percent greater than the value of seeing her tried and executed, but it's still valuable...for the moment.
What right does the Federation or the Fauxpublic have to hold Sela. They should turn her over to the Star Empire for trial.
She's a known war criminal for her complicity in the annihilation of multiple Romulan colonies and facilities. Her ignorance is no defense since what she did personally wasn't much better at all.
And why would the defunct Star Empire try her to begin with?
Lest you forget, she transformed the Empire into a monarchy with herself as Empress. She was the imperial government. The Empire was done after the Battle of Brea.
This could be seen as act of war you know. What if we kidnapped and held J'mpok?
How? She was rescued from an enemy facility and is being held for questioning.
Who? The remnants of the Star Empire? The Tal Shiar? Kidnap J'mpok? That'd be a sight to see.
As an Admiral of Starfleet, with large concerns for the security of the Alliance.. I demand she be remanded to the custody of the KDF for more "reasonable" treatment and interrogation.. yes Reasonable.. (ie: effective- if you can crack an Undine, you can crack a megalomaniac human romulan)
I can NOT argue with that logic. Jerrod must run a mean Jack Bauer interrogation. I don't even understand how that was possible. If the Undine scratches you you're as good as dead.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
She's a convicted war criminal, not a prisoner of war.
Well, two points:
1. I do not seem to recall Sela being tried and convicted. Actually, I believe the exact text was: "INTERVIEWER: You are a prisoner of the Romulan Republic, awaiting trial for war crimes. My attitude, as you deem it, is not your concern."
So, assuming that the Romulan Republic is the good guys and have instituted an "Innocent until proven Guilty" system, Sela is not a convicted war criminal. I'm not sure if she is a POW or if there is a special status for these cases.
2. Even if she WAS a convicted war criminal, Sela would still probably have access to counsel for appellate purposes.
Such impassioned debate on this matter, such weight given to this subject.
Debate is always a good thing , reguardless of the subject ,or in this case ,subjects brought to discussion.
In any event, i propose that a long distance communication be sent to scorpious for the lone of the"comfy chair" and a technical expert certified on it's use.
1. I do not seem to recall Sela being tried and convicted. Actually, I believe the exact text was: "INTERVIEWER: You are a prisoner of the Romulan Republic, awaiting trial for war crimes. My attitude, as you deem it, is not your concern."
So, assuming that the Romulan Republic is the good guys and have instituted an "Innocent until proven Guilty" system, Sela is not a convicted war criminal. I'm not sure if she is a POW or if there is a special status for these cases.
2. Even if she WAS a convicted war criminal, Sela would still probably have access to counsel for appellate purposes.
Sela at the moment is a combination Special Intelligence Asset and Prisoner of War. At the moment the former is overriding the normal operating procedure for the latter.
She's also apparently an extreme security risk. I'm not certain, but it occurs to me that the Republic and the alliance at large may not have acknowledged her capture at all.
Think about it, they raided an Iconian facility in subspace. Nobody knew where she was, no one expected to find her there, and there's no reason to believe that anyone actually broke the news.
Think of cons of it being public knowledge that she's being held.
The Iconians now know where she is (rather narrowing it down from running lose, or in the hands of one of the big three).
The Imperial loyalists know where she is and may take action to retrieve her.
The Tal Shiar remnants know where she is and may take action to retrieve her.
The Public calling for the trial to commence as rapidly as physically possible, and will be highly disgruntled if the result isn't Cardassian style. And then there's the public with more "personal" grudges from the Path to 2409, "She's using a little bit of blackmail, a dose of charm and a lot of guile," said a Starfleet Intelligence operative on Nova Roma." Some might simply see eliminating her when she's vulnerable to be good business.
For the good of the Milky Way Galaxy and her inhabitants, if she's telling the truth we need what's in her head. And we don't get it if she's dead or in jail.
So there's a downside to acknowledging that they have her and moving to the trial phase. It's not a Guantanamo Bay situation as they could easily put her on trial and convict her completely legit. That's not the question. It's getting the most intelligence value before you put her out to pasture.
BUT, the way they're treating her is more than that. They're scared of her. It appears that Sela is being written as a serious badass. I mean consider our guest stars. Worf: Badass, Tuvok: badass, Seven, The Doctor, Kim, even Neelix: All relatively badass.
If we consider that Asskicking=Authority, and we're the prime example of that being the Juggernauts of our fleets and being Fleet Admirals now, then there's a strong possibility that they're just treating Sela as a Romulan Terminatrix who if she gets loose will tear through the holding facility, escape to the wild, find a ship and get off world.
What comes to my mind is John Adams after the Boston Massacre. Even though he was sympathetic to (not actually involved in, at that point, though he very much was later) the cause of the victims, he volunteered to serve as legal counsel for the defense specifically because he wanted to prove that any accused criminal could receive a fair trial with access to counsel despite the current political situation, and no other qualified counsel had agreed to take the case.
Perhaps the Romulan Republic has reasons not to permit that to happen... but I have a feeling, knowing what has been said about their personal sense of honor, that somewhere in the Republic there's a qualified legal counsel who would willingly step into the John Adams role in that scenario. It might even be (as Adams was) someone who is a hardcore supporter of D'Tan's movement and goals. (And who, therefore, might be exceedingly trustworthy even around such a prisoner.) Because how else to prove the legitimacy of the Republic than to give Sela a fair trial?
If the Republic doesn't have someone like that - or isn't willing to trust them enough to give them the necessary access - then I am absolutely certain that some citizen of the Federation would be willing to take the same position. And (personal honor, again) I wouldn't be incredibly surprised if there's a similar Klingon legal tradition.
Well Klingon lawyers are respected and honored. I hear Worf's grandfather Worf made general solely based on legal skill.
I think Sela will get a fair trial. It's a part of the Romulan's healing process. They need to see her face justice and be seen on a grand stage for what she truly is. I'm not sure that base revenge will be entirely satisfying. It's not enough.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
No. They gave her a PADD whose code she cannot modify, likely disconnected from the rest of the facility's computer core. She can still open any content contained on it.
Not if it has Read/Write access turned off. What they should have said was Write/Execute access off. If Read is off, you can't Read the file, either.
*SNIP*
Admittedly they didn't have much choice. I mean, to quote Scotty, "Then we're dead."
They were stuck behind the Klingon border, ships on both sides were likely gonna open fire on sight, they knew there was gonna be another assassination attempt, the Klingons had a new superweapon, and as Valeris said, they couldn't call any Starbase or Starfleet Command to warn anyone.
That said, I would imagine there was a senior staff meeting before her interrogation session on the bridge.
Excellent points, of course, but still highlighting my contention that in circumstances like those, even the most noble people accept that the ends justify the means.
Your point about the likelihood of an off-camera staff meeting is very well-taken.
You know it's interesting, apparently in What's Left Behind, if you're a Betazoid, Vulcan, or other telepathic species, then Sela will tell you that her mind is so trained against telepaths and the like, there's no way to figure out what thoughts are real or what thoughts are just stuff she's made up. Kind of makes me want to roll a telepath.
That's very interesting! Not having a telepathic character, I hadn't seen that dialogue.
Considering Romulans have been trying to go against the Vulcans for three centuries easy at this point not being able to combat telepathy would be a glaring strategic oversight.
Recall that Gul Dukat resisted a Vulcan mind meld before so it is possible.
Since mind melds are touch telepathy, the best defense is simply to kill the Vulcan before he can touch you. However, since MENTAL defense against telepathy didn't seem to work for Valeris, even against someone who was only half-Vulcan, I wouldn't put too much faith in that.
I like DS9 and watched the whole series, but I don't recall the Dukat mind meld scene. I'll have to look it up before I can discuss it.
Klingon Mind Sifters are risky business, if it works on maximum then it will wreck her brain, and if the information is false, then there are no do overs. PLUS, if her Romulan mental discipline is high enough to reach Vulcan levels, then like Spock she may be able to resist it altogether.
I'm with you. In "Errand of Mercy", Kor's Klingon Mind Sifter failed to penetrate Spock's defenses, although Kor said at the highest setting it would reduce Kirk to a vegetable. The Romulan Commander in "The Enterprise Incident" made similar remarks about Romulan interrogation techniques. Of course, they've both had more than a century since to improve them. It's entirely possible that such resistance is now futile, (to assimilate a phrase).
I would imagine a Tal Shiar mind probe could work since the Tal Shiar regularly targeted Romulans, but I would think that Sela knows how they work and would've figured out how to defeat them.
I know how the electric chair works, but if I was strapped into one and the switch was thrown, I doubt if I could defeat it. :eek:
[snip]
I think Sela will get a fair trial. It's a part of the Romulan's healing process. They need to see her face justice and be seen on a grand stage for what she truly is. I'm not sure that base revenge will be entirely satisfying. It's not enough.
Yeah. I think that Sela will get a trial, IF she isn't killed in action in the "Uneasy Allies" mission or a sequel thereof. Hakeev was a special case. Obisek (or the Romulan PC) had a personal score with him, and that wasn't a representation of how the fledgling Republic's justice system works. In the case of Sela, it would only give credence to her accusations of injustice if she was summarily executed or tried Cardassian/Obsidian Order style. The Republic needs to prove that it has risen above the practices of the Empire/Tal Shiar.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
[snip]
Not if it has Read/Write access turned off. What they should have said was Write/Execute access off. If Read is off, you can't Read the file, either. [snip]
I was under the impression that Read/Write access refers to the code, not the file UI. Is that correct, or does Read/Write access refer to the UI as well as the code?
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I'm incredibly surprised the RR is treating her so well. 28 interrogations in and still no mind probe? Surely there must be some sort of telepathic means of interrogating her that won't entail long-term damage or pain (these are the kinder, gentler Romulans, after all)? Hell, we saw Spock do it himself once in a damn movie - don't tell me a Reman couldn't do something similar, or at least a Vulcan be brought in for it.
I tend to agree Sela should get a fair trial with representation, but we all know it'll have the same end result as just executing her now. She doesn't have a leg to stand on. Her list of crimes would stretch at least an AU, maybe one and a half AU's. Any trial, no matter how earnest, would be little more than a circus meant to placate the impractically just who might look down on them for anything less.
They really need to get D'tan himself in there to interrogate her. I mean, he's the man who played the KDF and Federation like fiddles - to their faces, with no trickery or lies - and wound up securing a position as the dominant emergent Romulan government. Sela's too good to be broken by regular interrogation. She needs to be challenged on her home field - politics.
I was under the impression that Read/Write access refers to the code, not the file UI. Is that correct, or does Read/Write access refer to the UI as well as the code?
It refers to the contents of the file (or directory). From Wikipedia:
* The read permission grants the ability to read a file. When set for a directory, this permission grants the ability to read the names of files in the directory, but not to find out any further information about them such as contents, file type, size, ownership, permissions.
* The write permission grants the ability to modify a file. When set for a directory, this permission grants the ability to modify entries in the directory. This includes creating files, deleting files, and renaming files.
* The execute permission grants the ability to execute a file. This permission must be set for executable programs, including shell scripts, in order to allow the operating system to run them. When set for a directory, this permission grants the ability to access file contents and meta-information if its name is known, but not list files inside the directory, unless read is set also.
So if they really gave her a PADD without even Read permissions, it's back to counting ceiling tiles for her.
Gee, maybe the interrogator IS torturing her. Sort of. :P
Comments
No, that's not Romulan Law. It's barbarity. Romulans, be they Imperial or Republic, are a civilized people. Sela may have screwed the pooch in a galactically monumental way, but that does not call for extrajudicial means of revenge. Furthermore, it only weakens the Republic in the eyes of unaligned Romulans: if we go about torturing and violating Sela, are we not as bad as the Tal Shiar?
Why don't we want Sela brought to trial? I think there is enough evidence to secure a war crimes conviction, even if the best defense attorneys in the galaxy are defending her.
For countless moral and pragmatic reasons, Sela should be given defense counsel and preparations made to be brought to trial. Unless she wishes to strike a plea...
Good point.
That depends on how imminent a threat the powers (particularly the RR) consider the possibility of an Iconian war to be. It seems to me that with the Delta Recruit push going on to prepare for it, they WOULD see the need to get any information she may have on the Iconians right now as a very high priority.
I want to see Sela redeem herself. This is a chance for the Romulan Republic to set itself apart from the now fallen Tal Shiar (Which also betrayed what the old Tal Shiar stood for). Give her a chance to turn things around and lose the Iconian-like hubris towards her. Approach her neutrally as one who wants to further the future of all Romulan people regardless of politics and protocol and have a civil no nonsense chat with her. I'd get it all out the right way. Pride is the fall of all powers.
CAPT. WILLIAM ASHWING
How did you get this, Number One?
CMDR. VLAEN AZTHRA
The usual Republic contacts, Captain.
CAPT. WILLIAM ASHWING
...
CMDR. VLAEN AZTHRA
Intervene?
CAPT. WILLIAM ASHWING
Report this up and let's see what happens.
CMDR. VLAEN AZTHRA
Ensign! Patch us to...
Interested in Role Playing? Join the 12th Fleet Science division!
*Sela hand waves** These as not the questions you are looking for. You want to ask yourself where you can get Sela a PADD so she can write her memoirs titled , "I Sela a how to book for dummies on how to manipulate the Romulan people.":P
I hope we get to see the Romulan senate room and other senators maybe they have more backbone than the Federation puppet D'tan. How I miss the days of the Empire where cunning and craftiness was the first law of rule.~.~
Shhhhh, you're spoiling S10.5!!! :eek::P:D:P
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Another grind goody.
Jack Bauer? No. There's likely time travel involved so more likely Captain Jack Harkness.
I would pay real money to have that.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
So. They gave her a padd that cant open anything stored on it.
How cruel.
No. They gave her a PADD whose code she cannot modify, likely disconnected from the rest of the facility's computer core. She can still open any content contained on it.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
Reminds me of they hypocritical nature of these stories. Being sela of all people can't bypass a lockout on a padd lol. I mean she is more advanced than a pre-K child but even they can bypass a parental lockout on a dvr. They do not do much thinking or planning when it comes to these blogs its more so all about pointless one liner stories that just lead to a boring grind.
I was impressed with the previous discussion about criminal justice, how it pertains to the Sela situation, and Cryptic's portrayal of the Republic. This, however was none of those things. I have nothing to say to a mindless dev basher.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
or they could just give her a book.
What right does the Federation or the Fauxpublic have to hold Sela. They should turn her over to the Star Empire for trial.
This could be seen as act of war you know. What if we kidnapped and held J'mpok?
The RSE no longer exists, have you played this game at all recently?
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
Well, what crimes has Sela committed against the Romulan Star Empire in-game?
Against the Romulan Republic, Sela committed a terror/conquest campaign (see the Virinat Arc, Crateris mission, and the mission "Cloak and Dagger"). That gives the Romulan Republic jurisdiction.
Against the Klingon Empire and its citizens, Sela attempted to mass-murder them by destroying the Khitomer base, while in-system under a flag of peace.
Against the United Federation of Planets, Sela attempted to *invade and conquer Vulcan*.
All of these actions give the three powers jurisdiction to arrest and try Sela. By contrast, Sela did not undertake overt offensive actions against the rump Romulan Star Empire.
She's a convicted war criminal, not a prisoner of war.
Honestly as painful as it was, it was a fantastic moral dilemma.
The only thing I can come up with right now is the wisdom of Picard.
http://youtu.be/fHERkWZEnUg?t=4m1s
I'm gonna sit down and watch Into Darkness sometime next week I think.
I would imagine that it was in the report on the entire affair, because they made sure to put it there.
I didn't get sexual overtones in it, primarily because my initial viewpoint of Spock and Valeris was a student-mentor relationship and that informed the interpretation. Also my age at the time things like **** never crossed my mind back then. Nowadays I can see it, but it's not my default.
Admittedly they didn't have much choice. I mean, to quote Scotty, "Then we're dead."
They were stuck behind the Klingon border, ships on both sides were likely gonna open fire on sight, they knew there was gonna be another assassination attempt, the Klingons had a new superweapon, and as Valeris said, they couldn't call any Starbase or Starfleet Command to warn anyone.
That said, I would imagine there was a senior staff meeting before her interrogation session on the bridge.
We also have resist telepathic interrogation missions.
You know it's interesting, apparently in What's Left Behind, if you're a Betazoid, Vulcan, or other telepathic species, then Sela will tell you that her mind is so trained against telepaths and the like, there's no way to figure out what thoughts are real or what thoughts are just stuff she's made up. Kind of makes me want to roll a telepath.
Considering Romulans have been trying to go against the Vulcans for three centuries easy at this point not being able to combat telepathy would be a glaring strategic oversight.
Recall that Gul Dukat resisted a Vulcan mind meld before so it is possible.
Klingon Mind Sifters are risky business, if it works on maximum then it will wreck her brain, and if the information is false, then there are no do overs. PLUS, if her Romulan mental discipline is high enough to reach Vulcan levels, then like Spock she may be able to resist it altogether.
I would imagine a Tal Shiar mind probe could work since the Tal Shiar regularly targeted Romulans, but I would think that Sela knows how they work and would've figured out how to defeat them.
I like the way you think, as well as your Final Fantasy inspired name.
Precisely, furthermore there is actual value in acquiring Sela's cooperation in going about this.
It may only be one percent greater than the value of seeing her tried and executed, but it's still valuable...for the moment.
She's a known war criminal for her complicity in the annihilation of multiple Romulan colonies and facilities. Her ignorance is no defense since what she did personally wasn't much better at all.
And why would the defunct Star Empire try her to begin with?
Lest you forget, she transformed the Empire into a monarchy with herself as Empress. She was the imperial government. The Empire was done after the Battle of Brea.
How? She was rescued from an enemy facility and is being held for questioning.
Who? The remnants of the Star Empire? The Tal Shiar? Kidnap J'mpok? That'd be a sight to see.
I can NOT argue with that logic. Jerrod must run a mean Jack Bauer interrogation. I don't even understand how that was possible. If the Undine scratches you you're as good as dead.
Well, two points:
1. I do not seem to recall Sela being tried and convicted. Actually, I believe the exact text was: "INTERVIEWER: You are a prisoner of the Romulan Republic, awaiting trial for war crimes. My attitude, as you deem it, is not your concern."
So, assuming that the Romulan Republic is the good guys and have instituted an "Innocent until proven Guilty" system, Sela is not a convicted war criminal. I'm not sure if she is a POW or if there is a special status for these cases.
2. Even if she WAS a convicted war criminal, Sela would still probably have access to counsel for appellate purposes.
Debate is always a good thing , reguardless of the subject ,or in this case ,subjects brought to discussion.
In any event, i propose that a long distance communication be sent to scorpious for the lone of the"comfy chair" and a technical expert certified on it's use.
to the " free sela faction"
only from the neck up
Sela at the moment is a combination Special Intelligence Asset and Prisoner of War. At the moment the former is overriding the normal operating procedure for the latter.
She's also apparently an extreme security risk. I'm not certain, but it occurs to me that the Republic and the alliance at large may not have acknowledged her capture at all.
Think about it, they raided an Iconian facility in subspace. Nobody knew where she was, no one expected to find her there, and there's no reason to believe that anyone actually broke the news.
Think of cons of it being public knowledge that she's being held.
The Iconians now know where she is (rather narrowing it down from running lose, or in the hands of one of the big three).
The Imperial loyalists know where she is and may take action to retrieve her.
The Tal Shiar remnants know where she is and may take action to retrieve her.
The Public calling for the trial to commence as rapidly as physically possible, and will be highly disgruntled if the result isn't Cardassian style. And then there's the public with more "personal" grudges from the Path to 2409, "She's using a little bit of blackmail, a dose of charm and a lot of guile," said a Starfleet Intelligence operative on Nova Roma." Some might simply see eliminating her when she's vulnerable to be good business.
For the good of the Milky Way Galaxy and her inhabitants, if she's telling the truth we need what's in her head. And we don't get it if she's dead or in jail.
So there's a downside to acknowledging that they have her and moving to the trial phase. It's not a Guantanamo Bay situation as they could easily put her on trial and convict her completely legit. That's not the question. It's getting the most intelligence value before you put her out to pasture.
BUT, the way they're treating her is more than that. They're scared of her. It appears that Sela is being written as a serious badass. I mean consider our guest stars. Worf: Badass, Tuvok: badass, Seven, The Doctor, Kim, even Neelix: All relatively badass.
If we consider that Asskicking=Authority, and we're the prime example of that being the Juggernauts of our fleets and being Fleet Admirals now, then there's a strong possibility that they're just treating Sela as a Romulan Terminatrix who if she gets loose will tear through the holding facility, escape to the wild, find a ship and get off world.
Well Klingon lawyers are respected and honored. I hear Worf's grandfather Worf made general solely based on legal skill.
I think Sela will get a fair trial. It's a part of the Romulan's healing process. They need to see her face justice and be seen on a grand stage for what she truly is. I'm not sure that base revenge will be entirely satisfying. It's not enough.
Not if it has Read/Write access turned off. What they should have said was Write/Execute access off. If Read is off, you can't Read the file, either.
I must say, neither my Gorn, nor my KDF-allied Romulan would be in the least upset if you did.
Excellent points, of course, but still highlighting my contention that in circumstances like those, even the most noble people accept that the ends justify the means.
Your point about the likelihood of an off-camera staff meeting is very well-taken.
Also true.
That's very interesting! Not having a telepathic character, I hadn't seen that dialogue.
Since mind melds are touch telepathy, the best defense is simply to kill the Vulcan before he can touch you.
I like DS9 and watched the whole series, but I don't recall the Dukat mind meld scene. I'll have to look it up before I can discuss it.
I'm with you. In "Errand of Mercy", Kor's Klingon Mind Sifter failed to penetrate Spock's defenses, although Kor said at the highest setting it would reduce Kirk to a vegetable. The Romulan Commander in "The Enterprise Incident" made similar remarks about Romulan interrogation techniques. Of course, they've both had more than a century since to improve them. It's entirely possible that such resistance is now futile, (to assimilate a phrase).
I know how the electric chair works, but if I was strapped into one and the switch was thrown, I doubt if I could defeat it. :eek:
Yeah. I think that Sela will get a trial, IF she isn't killed in action in the "Uneasy Allies" mission or a sequel thereof. Hakeev was a special case. Obisek (or the Romulan PC) had a personal score with him, and that wasn't a representation of how the fledgling Republic's justice system works. In the case of Sela, it would only give credence to her accusations of injustice if she was summarily executed or tried Cardassian/Obsidian Order style. The Republic needs to prove that it has risen above the practices of the Empire/Tal Shiar.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
I was under the impression that Read/Write access refers to the code, not the file UI. Is that correct, or does Read/Write access refer to the UI as well as the code?
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
Where exactly did we go?
Yay for Free Sela sigs! I should work on one too!
I tend to agree Sela should get a fair trial with representation, but we all know it'll have the same end result as just executing her now. She doesn't have a leg to stand on. Her list of crimes would stretch at least an AU, maybe one and a half AU's. Any trial, no matter how earnest, would be little more than a circus meant to placate the impractically just who might look down on them for anything less.
They really need to get D'tan himself in there to interrogate her. I mean, he's the man who played the KDF and Federation like fiddles - to their faces, with no trickery or lies - and wound up securing a position as the dominant emergent Romulan government. Sela's too good to be broken by regular interrogation. She needs to be challenged on her home field - politics.
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
It refers to the contents of the file (or directory). From Wikipedia:
So if they really gave her a PADD without even Read permissions, it's back to counting ceiling tiles for her.
Gee, maybe the interrogator IS torturing her. Sort of. :P