They're behaving as old-school Romulans, Romulans of the Empire, not the Republic.
Because they are romulans in the first place, they are not humans. Just because they are in a Republic now, doesn't mean that their behavior towards war prisoners did change (too much).
Your Plasma Torpedo - Heavy III deals 174321 (66343) Kinetic Damage(Critical) to I.R.W. Valdore.
Because they are romulans in the first place, they are not humans. Just because they are in a Republic now, doesn't mean that their behavior towards war prisoners did change (too much).
Took Cryptic long enough to figure it out.
Hopefully they'll start moving away from that 'Bajoran resistance/rebel alliance' thing they originally intended the Republic as.
Except STO builds directly on the events of Star Trek Nemesis and Star trek(2009) and uses it as its very foundation. :rolleyes:
That point just went way over your head.
Just because Star Trek has had stupid things in it before doesn't mean every stupid thing in the franchise gets a free pass. That's just completely vapid nonsense. There should at least be some attempt to have a degree of quality in the storytelling.
The Remans building a massive dreadnought in isolation that was more sophisticated than anything the Romulans themselves could build was one of many things that strained credulity to the breaking point in Nemesis.
Just because the Republic apparently has similarly inexplicably vast resources doesn't keep that from straining credulity. Nor vise versa. They are both Plot holes big enough to fly a Galaxy Class through.
Here's the thing, people here are assuming that you have to go to either one extreme or the other to be effective at questioning techniques. Whoever wrote this piece obviously didn't do any research.
Here's the thing, the Romulans are expert at questioning techniques, and would know that while certain techniques are off limits others can be used... and used effectively. None would require torture, physical harm, starvation or anything like that.
The first thing I would have done is stripped Sela of her "Romulan" status within the Republic and made her a human subject of the Romulan Republic. Strip her of her clothes, place her in a dark cell where she can't even see the tile let alone count them... just enough light so she can see the open toilet and the coverless bed... make sure she sees that everything she does is watched and recorded... no privacy. She's woken at random times with super bright lights and overly loud loud speakers... the temperature is always too cold or too warm.... never dangerous but never comfortable... her food is always of the consistancy and tastes like the food she absolutly hates... or doesn't taste like anything... using primarily suplemental vitamens for nurishment... and water to drink.
This is all done to remind her she's not Empress anymore... and in fact not even concidered a Romulan.. just a subject of the Republic.... let that eat at Sela's pride for a few weeks... and her demands will become surprisingly low when they come.
In the Interrogation I'm not letting her in control... ever... she has to realize that even with her barginning chip the iterrogator is in control. She doesn't speak, sit, stand or anythign without the interrogators say so. She doesn't want to speak... send her back...
All this and I haven't even laid a hand on her or removed her basic needs of life. All I've done is hit a blow to her pride and removed her dignity.
Oh and she wants to talk. When she said what she said it's because she wants to tell it... but her pride won't let her just do it. So I'm giving her reading material. I'm giving her the writings of Spock and D'Tan... every bit of Anti-Sela writings out there.... everything that ever praised Taris.... and a bunch of readings celebrating the life of her mother and Picard.
Oh I'll give in to her demands... but ensure she knows it's under my terms not hers...
It looks as if the federation smells an unjust imprisonment and possible foul treatment of sela and seeks to find if it is in fact true....and apperantly it is.
Unjust by Federation standards, yes. But seemingly acceptable by the Republic. The worst she's experienced so far is boredom, although yes Federation law would require this be handled completely differently. But she's under Republic jurisdiction right now.
Sorry, I don't buy that. If his involvement in the unificationist movement is proof of him being a 'terrorist,' then that's pretty weak. They were a peaceful movement.
Of course, some took it too far. Guaranteed Spock and D'Tan would never have wanted anyone to be killed for 'the cause,' so I doubt the M'ret defection was organized by D'Tan's group - more likely his aides and own personal network / range of influence. Either way, M'ret was escaping persecution, so I hardly see unificationists as terrorists.
Even if my in-game persona doesn't agree with unification, Triana hardly sees unificationists as the enemy. The RSE freely took that title, when it started abducting and massacring its own people for wanting more freedoms.
The Fauxpublic is one pissant planet with few if any resources. It only exists due to being propped up by the Federation. They can barely feed anyone let alone build fleets of Star Ships.
We have an entire sector block. Time will tell what happens to the rest of Romulan space in the long-run. Also, the new Command ships, the Aelahl, the Ar'kif... those are all said to be Repbulic-built ships in their descriptions.
And the Republic must be doing plenty well for itself, if it can stand as an equal power to the Klingon Empire and Federation in matters of the Beta/Alpha Quadrant relations, the Spheres, the Delta Quadrant, etc.
A case of telling and not showing. A Romulan spacedock needs to be shown, the next First Contact/Republic day should be a christening ceremony for the Romulan equivalent of Utopia Planitia.
This is one thing I'm looking for as well - more infrastructure shown for the Republic. Kinda frustrated that my signature screenshot needed to be taken in a Fed drydock for now. Hopefully expanding New Romulus is on the drawing board soon.
Also, I keep hearing the term "fair trial." Each society has its own belief of what fair is, and they rarely are equitable. I seriously doubt the trial would be like seen on Law and Order, Perry Mason, and such.
Agreed here. There would need to be something akin to "The Path to 2409" written about Republic society to put the legal structure into context. Mind you, that's not a bad idea if the devs did want to release that kinda in-depth sociological information on the Republic. It'd be a neat read, for sure.
As far as it being "defunct"... Not hardly. The RSE is was great power with many many advanced planets and colonies spread over much of the Beta Q.
The Fauxpublic is one pissant planet with few if any resources. It only exists due to being propped up by the Federation. They can barely feed anyone let alone build fleets of Star Ships.
Late addendum to my earlier post, on the topic that the Republic isn't just one single planet.
I made a listing of the known allegiances of non-RSE star systems in Romulan space a while back. Here's what I came up with, as well as RSE transgressions against Republic and independent locations.
Republic Systems: - Tau Dewa > New Romulus / Dewa
> Crateris: former Reman homeworld, destroyed and abandoned after TS / Elachi raid
> Nequencia: Republic trade hub
> Virinat: destroyed and abandoned after TS / Elachi raid - Psi Velorum > Chulan: site of RhInno station, subject to Elachi raiding
> Haakona: site of the Reman Resistance home base, subject to TS raiding - Iota Pavonis > Delta Corvi: destroyed and abandoned after TS / Elachi raid - Alpha Centauri > Sienae: Republic colony, subject to Elachi raiding
> Tephrei: Republic station, subject to Elachi raiding
Independent Systems: - Eirhess (Alpha Centauri): site of Romulan refugee population post-Romulus
- Gasko (Tau Dewa): site of Romulan refugee population post-Romulus
- Khaiell (Psi Velorum): independent joint Romulan / Vulcan colony
- Rhi (Alpa Centauri): independent colony voted against joining RSE, has since been subject to Elachi raids
- Sarita (Iota Pavonis): one of the original colonies to decline joining RSE, and had appealed to Federation prior to Republic's formation
So no, the Republic is not just a single location on life support. And I'd fully expect, as someone else mentioned, that rebuilding some of the damage done on planets like the Remans' previous homeworld is being done.
Also, I see the only entity doing the terrorizing here is the RSE and their Elachi friends.
they need to just behead her already and burn the corpse. that way the Romulan empire can be reunified under D'tan and we can kick the fed and klinks out of Romulan space and have our own damn faction as it should of been from the beginning.
That'll just make her a martyr for one. Also to those who are hopeing that D'Tan is better then the Tal'Shiar that would just prove that he's not, something the Empire will tout, and loose the Republic face.
Though I'd personally give her to the Klingons before giving her to the Federation. Klingons know how to deal with stubborn prisoners.
Late addendum to my earlier post, on the topic that the Republic isn't just one single planet.
I made a listing of the known allegiances of non-RSE star systems in Romulan space a while back. Here's what I came up with, as well as RSE transgressions against Republic and independent locations.
Republic Systems: - Tau Dewa > New Romulus / Dewa
> Crateris: former Reman homeworld, destroyed and abandoned after TS / Elachi raid
> Nequencia: Republic trade hub
> Virinat: destroyed and abandoned after TS / Elachi raid - Psi Velorum > Chulan: site of RhInno station, subject to Elachi raiding
> Haakona: site of the Reman Resistance home base, subject to TS raiding - Iota Pavonis > Delta Corvi: destroyed and abandoned after TS / Elachi raid - Alpha Centauri > Sienae: Republic colony, subject to Elachi raiding
> Tephrei: Republic station, subject to Elachi raiding
Independent Systems: - Eirhess (Alpha Centauri): site of Romulan refugee population post-Romulus
- Gasko (Tau Dewa): site of Romulan refugee population post-Romulus
- Khaiell (Psi Velorum): independent joint Romulan / Vulcan colony
- Rhi (Alpa Centauri): independent colony voted against joining RSE, has since been subject to Elachi raids
- Sarita (Iota Pavonis): one of the original colonies to decline joining RSE, and had appealed to Federation prior to Republic's formation
So no, the Republic is not just a single location on life support. And I'd fully expect, as someone else mentioned, that rebuilding some of the damage done on planets like the Remans' previous homeworld is being done.
Also, I see the only entity doing the terrorizing here is the RSE and their Elachi friends.
again all this "refugee" nonsense. There were never any "refugees". Anyone near Romulus was dead, anyone not on Romulus simply moved to one of the MANY Romulan planents. There were never people wearing rags trying to eek out an existence in a broken down trailer park.
If London blows up people in Liverpool don't put on torn overalls and scarves and start wandering the planet.
Anyway,
Sela seems to been on trial for Hakeev's crimes mostly.
again all this "refugee" nonsense. There were never any "refugees". Anyone near Romulus was dead, anyone not on Romulus simply moved to one of the MANY Romulan planents. There were never people wearing rags trying to eek out an existence in a broken down trailer park.
You're forgetting that massive amounts of wealth were destroyed with Romulus, and a large percentage of Romulans who were off-world at the time would have been military. Many of the others would have lost all Romulus-based assets.
If my house burns down, I'm not in very good shape regardless of how much money I have. Most of my possessions are destroyed, I have only the clothes on my back.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
And it was mind-numbingly stupid when it happened in Nemesis...so probably not the best comparison.
What the construction of the Scimitar?
While Shinzon said the Remans constructed it, it's just as likely and far more viable, that it was a Tal Shiar shipbuilding project that Reman slave labor constructed.
Why would the Tal Shiar construct a monster like that?
Because they were still stinging and pissed off about the debacle that was the "Battle" of the Omarion Nebula, also known as the Cardassian Romulan Turkey Shoot.
Now you bring the Scimitar to that party and suddenly the Founders are on the Critically Endangered Species list.
Then Shinzon got a hold of it.
Or perhaps it's the other way around. They were in construction of it before the battle of the Omarion Nebula, and then when the Tal Shiar took so many horrible losses there, Shinzon and his Reman brothers were able to usurp the ship without resistance. I say that because the Obsidian Order itself effectively ceased to exist at that battle, and with a Founder in Romulan disguise calling the shots, I can't imagine he would leave the other great threat the Tal Shiar in much better position. Just more difficult because there were more of them.
I would recommend against using terminology such as "Rule of Law" when no one actually knows what Romulan (Republic) Rule of Law is. Also, if she is being held as a military prisoner, one would assert that military laws (as we can pull from Earth history) are even less gracious to a persons living conditions, especially someone as dangerous as Sela is portrayed. I would expect solitary confinement and the degree of lost freedoms that she is complaining about regarding her captivity. The equivalent of a military tribunal would be appropriate for ser situation as well.
Also, I keep hearing the term "fair trial." Each society has its own belief of what fair is, and they rarely are equitable. I seriously doubt the trial would be like seen on Law and Order, Perry Mason, and such.
Albeit, if Data (Pa Wheeler) was to make an appearance discussing his poor, West Virginia, family's latest tradgedy, it would be somewhat like Night Court
Indeed, though these things change.
For instance, I doubt the current Cardassian Union still uses the, "You're already guilty and convicted, the trial is your opportunity to confess for the good of the state" model that the pre-Treaty of Bajor Cardassian Union used. But during that era of Cardassian history that was considered a fair trial that showcased the power of the state so that the people would have faith in the power of the state.
I would think that Romulan Republic's form of jurisprudence would resemble Rome's, while also having the best parts of old Romulus and Vulcan ideals. I'd expect a strong emphasis on scientifically verified physical evidence. Lots of personal testimony...LOTS. I would think that D'tan would bar her normal political enemies, as what she did to them on Rator III to keep them in line is likely not going to come into play.
So was turning into a salamander if you go too fast. Threshold
Even the writers and producers have struck that one from the record...thank the Great Bird.
So was Women not being allowed to be starfleet captains. Turnabout Intruder
Ahhh the 60s.
So was Vulcans being able to survive without a brain. Spock's Brain
Humans can survive without a functional brain today. As long as Spock's brain stem was intact, his autonomous functions, such as breathing and heart beat would continue. Not saying it isn't a stupid episode. Just that that wasn't the worst part. That would be Remote Control Spock. They didn't even make an R/C toy out of it.
I could go on.
Star Trek has had plenty of stupid moments. The best way to deal with them is to not repeat them.
This is true. We should all be thankful from oversexed Ferengi hasn't beamed our female officers off of our bridge without their clothes.
again all this "refugee" nonsense. There were never any "refugees". Anyone near Romulus was dead, anyone not on Romulus simply moved to one of the MANY Romulan planents. There were never people wearing rags trying to eek out an existence in a broken down trailer park.
If London blows up people in Liverpool don't put on torn overalls and scarves and start wandering the planet.
Anyway,
Sela seems to been on trial for Hakeev's crimes mostly.
Tell that to the people on Hfihar.
There were plenty of people who were refugees. The people who managed to get off of Romulus with the 18 hours of warning. Those people had nowhere to go.
Your analogy is also pitifully low. This wasn't London being nuked. This was the entire isle of Great Britain being sunk like Atlantis and the rest of Commonwealth being left to wither on the vine. The primary industry, the government, the sciences, the overwhelming majority of the population. 18 billion people. Dead. No imports from the home world, no news, no leadership, no new ship construction. And how many Romulan worlds, how many Romulan nobles vying for power in the vacuum. While you have Klingons trying to slide in to take advantage. How many Orions and Nausicaans looking for a quick buck off the backs of the average Romulan citizen who no longer has a super power's military to protect them?
And there was a Supernova. How many people weren't killed by the shockwaved, but by the gamma ray burst? And how many Romulan worlds were between Hobus and Romulus?
There were refugees and plenty of them. Even if you don't comprehend the scale of the catastrophe.
And Sela has plenty of her own crimes to answer for, though you're correct since she was in exile she can't be pinned for the destruction of Romulus.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
"Debriefing Session 28" was pretty well-written. It accomplished several things, in forwarding the story.
First, it really brought forward Sela as a character. And we've had a mystery, for quite a long time, about just what her relationship is with the Iconians. We knew that she must be a remarkable individual to escape the Iconians as she did, but most of that happened off-stage. We've been told that Empress Sela is full of guile, a master manipulator, but I think this is the first time we've really seen it.
The writers really nailed the trick of placing her as someone dangerous, that you can't trust, but must.
Part of what happens in that scene is that she's probing the Republic, in the person of her interrogator, for weaknesses.
And it's interesting what this scene reveals about the Republic. On the one hand, they didn't try physical torture, or any sort of mind control device. On the other hand, they deprived her of her basic rights as a prisoner -- solitary confinement, lack of access to reading material or any other meaningful activity. (This sort of treatment is, in fact, torture.)
This suggests that the Republic has a weakness: it's ambivalent about its identity. They're not the old Star Empire, but they're not the Federation or Klingon Empire, either. So who are they now? What is the new Romulan way?
And of course, this sets up for a classic Star Trek dilemma: pragmatism or principle, expediency or honor.
While the Republic may not have treaties with the Romulan Empire, which many of you seem to think is what she meant, the Republic DOES have treaties with the Federation and the Klingon Empire, and you can bet the farm and just about anything else that, at the very least, the treaty with the Federation requires that alleged war-criminals and other people accused of high crimes against the Republic and against other parties be granted some basic sentient rights, including the right to counsel, the right to some recreational activity, and the right to reading materials including, but not limited to, the relevant laws under which they are being prosecuted.
I have a Romulan Republic character named Vivara, who serves in Starfleet as well, and she is very proud of the Republic that has been built up in the wake of the Hobus Disaster -- and if she has anything to say about how Sela is being treated, it's that as horrible as Sela is (and Vivara knows she is), the Republic cannot hope to retain any credibility in the Galaxy if it does not afford basic sentient rights to all citizens and prisoners alike. If we have any desire to keep the trust that we've garnered up until now, we will allow the Federation (and the Klingon Empire, if they so desire) to observe our treatment of Sela and to either send legal counsel for her, if no Republic attorney is willing to represent her, or to work with any Republic attorneys who are willing to do so.
Secrecy only serves to allow abuses that we would otherwise be ashamed to have come to light.
As of now, Vivara is very disappointed in D'Tan. All of his fine words mean nothing if they don't apply to the worst of us as well as the best of us.
again all this "refugee" nonsense. There were never any "refugees". Anyone near Romulus was dead, anyone not on Romulus simply moved to one of the MANY Romulan planents. There were never people wearing rags trying to eek out an existence in a broken down trailer park.
As others have noted, destroying Romulus was enough of a blow to disrupt the Empire's systems.
Also, many of the people on these other planets were in fact deprived of regular goods. 'Cause the RSE had a habit of TRIBBLE with their affairs. Oh, and blowing the living TRIBBLE outta the planets during raids. The RSE made many of these independent worlds into refugee camps. If the RSE hadn't taken an "Empire or suffer the consequences" approach, maybe the rest of us would've been ok.
While the Republic may not have treaties with the Romulan Empire, which many of you seem to think is what she meant, the Republic DOES have treaties with the Federation and the Klingon Empire, and you can bet the farm and just about anything else that, at the very least, the treaty with the Federation requires that alleged war-criminals and other people accused of high crimes against the Republic and against other parties be granted some basic sentient rights, including the right to counsel, the right to some recreational activity, and the right to reading materials including, but not limited to, the relevant laws under which they are being prosecuted.
It's honestly hard to say. The Federation President said that existing treaties with the Romulans died with Romulus itself - in that instance referencing the Treaty of Algeron, but applying it in general as well. So by the Federation's own admission, the Republic is not bound to any treaties signed by the RSE with the Federation.
I doubt that broader-reaching treaties have been signed at this point. Basic mutual-protection agreements, policies governing the Solanae Sphere, and guidelines for the Delta Expedition most likely. But I do doubt that shared legal standards have been on the table yet.
"Debriefing Session 28" was pretty well-written. It accomplished several things, in forwarding the story.
First, it really brought forward Sela as a character. And we've had a mystery, for quite a long time, about just what her relationship is with the Iconians. We knew that she must be a remarkable individual to escape the Iconians as she did, but most of that happened off-stage. We've been told that Empress Sela is full of guile, a master manipulator, but I think this is the first time we've really seen it.
The writers really nailed the trick of placing her as someone dangerous, that you can't trust, but must.
Part of what happens in that scene is that she's probing the Republic, in the person of her interrogator, for weaknesses.
And it's interesting what this scene reveals about the Republic. On the one hand, they didn't try physical torture, or any sort of mind control device. On the other hand, they deprived her of her basic rights as a prisoner -- solitary confinement, lack of access to reading material or any other meaningful activity. (This sort of treatment is, in fact, torture.)
This suggests that the Republic has a weakness: it's ambivalent about its identity. They're not the old Star Empire, but they're not the Federation or Klingon Empire, either. So who are they now? What is the new Romulan way?
And of course, this sets up for a classic Star Trek dilemma: pragmatism or principle, expediency or honor.
Overall I agree, even if to most the interrogator came off as ineffectual. He only has so much leeway here, and she is in fact a master Romulan politician. Knowing how to lie and subvert your opponent's questions and truths was a necessary skill in the empire. He was clearly going against someone above his skill level, she's not just some spy.
While the Republic may not have treaties with the Romulan Empire, which many of you seem to think is what she meant, the Republic DOES have treaties with the Federation and the Klingon Empire, and you can bet the farm and just about anything else that, at the very least, the treaty with the Federation requires that alleged war-criminals and other people accused of high crimes against the Republic and against other parties be granted some basic sentient rights, including the right to counsel, the right to some recreational activity, and the right to reading materials including, but not limited to, the relevant laws under which they are being prosecuted.
I have a Romulan Republic character named Vivara, who serves in Starfleet as well, and she is very proud of the Republic that has been built up in the wake of the Hobus Disaster -- and if she has anything to say about how Sela is being treated, it's that as horrible as Sela is (and Vivara knows she is), the Republic cannot hope to retain any credibility in the Galaxy if it does not afford basic sentient rights to all citizens and prisoners alike. If we have any desire to keep the trust that we've garnered up until now, we will allow the Federation (and the Klingon Empire, if they so desire) to observe our treatment of Sela and to either send legal counsel for her, if no Republic attorney is willing to represent her, or to work with any Republic attorneys who are willing to do so.
Secrecy only serves to allow abuses that we would otherwise be ashamed to have come to light.
As of now, Vivara is very disappointed in D'Tan. All of his fine words mean nothing if they don't apply to the worst of us as well as the best of us.
Interesting, My RRF character Azuria would be amazed that they've shown so much restraint.
Like I said, I think her current treatment is more than just about her legal status. I think they view her as a very high security risk. Imagine how many people would be disappointed in D'Tan if he let SELA escape.
She broke out of an Iconian prison with only the distraction of us showing up. Like I said, I think the not allowing verbal contact is partly to prevent her from turning any of her guards. No pens or pencils because they can be weaponized, I'm fairly certain no paper is to prevent her from making a fire...or a weapon (paper can be folded to make a shank), no PADD is to prevent her from accessing the computer. This woman has a history of being an intelligence operative and all around dirty dealer. She can't be underestimated.
And while you're disappointed in his fine words, keep in mind that no one has use any neural probes, or submitted her to any of the TRIBBLE that she put us through. We're being a heck of a lot nicer to her than she was to us when our positions were reversed.
So forgive me if I don't find Sela being bored and not being allowed to see a lawyer to be a grievous violation of her sapient rights.
That said. If anything their tactics are a waste of time. If she does have viable intel then attaining her cooperation is the top priority. As long as you don't give her amnesty for her crimes getting her some recreational time shouldn't be a problem. The Read/Write locked PADD is a good start. But no matter what, she must stand trial.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
And it's interesting what this scene reveals about the Republic. On the one hand, they didn't try physical torture, or any sort of mind control device. On the other hand, they deprived her of her basic rights as a prisoner -- solitary confinement, lack of access to reading material or any other meaningful activity. (This sort of treatment is, in fact, torture.)
.
The higher the risk of flight, or inflitcting damage on others, the less "rights" are afforded to them. I have no problem with that. Those are common breaking techniques used on people. If you call that torture, God help you when you see real torture. Heck, it almost sounds like an escalation of the punishment onegets as a child being grounded, sent to ones room and not allowed to have forms of entertainment. Heck, the RR probably didnt even feed her desert.
I think that some people forget what exactly she is being charged with, of course she is going to be so restrained in even basic "rights". Its not even simple murder or mass murder on a scale typical humanity comprehends. How much blood is on her hands? I feel no sympathy for her situation.
Im sorry but when people toss around the label of torture as broadly as that, it strikes a nerve.
It's a positively Tal Shiar/RSE sort of attitude. Yet that seems fact seems to fall flat for a lot of players/Cryptic themselves...
IMO we should have a 'nasty' way of extracting her information, and a 'friendly' one...like we used to have in a lot of earlier episodes. I'll be disappointed if players aren't allowed to have extensive conversations with her.
To be honest a lot of fans are RSE empire fans and not this fed friendly RR. I for one agree on getting the information by any means posible. Forced mindmeld likr Spock does to Valeris. Truth Serum like they mention in TOS. Mind probe or mind sifter if she resists all the former. Especially whar she has done to prisoner in the past
NO TO ARC
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I think that some people forget what exactly she is being charged with, of course she is going to be so restrained in even basic "rights". Its not even simple murder or mass murder on a scale typical humanity comprehends. How much blood is on her hands? I feel no sympathy for her situation.
I think Cryptic's done something very impressive with Sela. They've created a character that truly repulses me. And not because of bad writing, but due to exceptionally good writing.
The atrocities committed under her order - directly or indirectly - as Empress are absolutely disgusting. Striking a deal with the Elachi and providing Romulans and Remans as warm bodies for genetic playtime, full-out mind-altering indoctrination techniques, adapting Borg technology to her fleet... as well as to unfortunate test subjects.
Of course, Hakeev had his hands over a lot of this too, but Sela has her hands just as dirty. Both of them committed or signed off on incredibly brutal attacks against Romulan and Reman innocents on a regular basis. Their repression of any and all resistance was also complete - whether it was a Republic or otherwise independent target, Romulans and Remans were subjected to a full-scale invasion and brutally murdered en masse. And those that died during the siege were clearly the lucky ones.
Either way, hat tip to Cryptic. They've created one of the most disgusting Trek villains of all-time, and really confronted the players with some morally reprehensible acts. That mission when you're under Tal Shiar indoctrination and have to subject a Republic prisoner to Borg modifications... yeah, that one still hurts. Not to mention seeing captured Romulans and Remans in Elachi labs.
So I agree - Sela is in fact a dangerous prisoner, and whatever she gets is less than she deserves. It's very telling however, that the Republic is taking a decidedly different approach than the RSE ever would've considered, and that full-out torture doesn't seem to be in the playbook. Triana, as a Romulan who is fully aware of some of the atrocities of the old RSE, can only appreciate that her Republic is showing itself to indeed be a better, more honest state.
To be honest a lot of fans are RSE empire fans and not this fed friendly RR.
I can understand being a fan of the RSE we saw in TNG, DS9, etc. I cannot understand being a fan of the RSE as it exists in 2410. And that wasn't Cryptic that killed it - it was Shinzon that started the downward spiral of the old Empire, so the fall of the RSE is in fact full canon. Cryptic, and other authors of written works, just laid out the path that this downfall took.
By that measure, the Republic is the first solid footing of government to rise as a successor to the dying RSE. Triana supports it wholeheartedly.
I think Cryptic's done something very impressive with Sela. They've created a character that truly repulses me. And not because of bad writing, but due to exceptionally good writing.
The atrocities committed under her order - directly or indirectly - as Empress are absolutely disgusting. Striking a deal with the Elachi and providing Romulans and Remans as warm bodies for genetic playtime, full-out mind-altering indoctrination techniques, adapting Borg technology to her fleet... as well as to unfortunate test subjects.
Of course, Hakeev had his hands over a lot of this too, but Sela has her hands just as dirty. Both of them committed or signed off on incredibly brutal attacks against Romulan and Reman innocents on a regular basis. Their repression of any and all resistance was also complete - whether it was a Republic or otherwise independent target, Romulans and Remans were subjected to a full-scale invasion and brutally murdered en masse. And those that died during the siege were clearly the lucky ones.
Either way, hat tip to Cryptic. They've created one of the most disgusting Trek villains of all-time, and really confronted the players with some morally reprehensible acts. That mission when you're under Tal Shiar indoctrination and have to subject a Republic prisoner to Borg modifications... yeah, that one still hurts. Not to mention seeing captured Romulans and Remans in Elachi labs.
So I agree - Sela is in fact a dangerous prisoner, and whatever she gets is less than she deserves. It's very telling however, that the Republic is taking a decidedly different approach than the RSE ever would've considered, and that full-out torture doesn't seem to be in the playbook. Triana, as a Romulan who is fully aware of some of the atrocities of the old RSE, can only appreciate that her Republic is showing itself to indeed be a better, more honest state.
Agreed, considering how suspect her villain pedigree was in TNG, they've really stepped up her game. Before when I thought about Sela I always thought about somehow reviving her humanity, at least getting her to acknowledge it. That story about it dying with her mother was rather heartbreaking to me.
Now though, it's like....just 86 her to keep her from ruining Tasha's good name any further.
Oh by the way, to all the people wanting to put Alternate Captain Picard up for war crimes for sending Tasha back to the Battle of Narendra III, please keep in mind that every one of us who beat Temporal Ambassador also sent Tasha back in time to the Battle of Narendra III thereby making us accomplices.
I can understand being a fan of the RSE we saw in TNG, DS9, etc. I cannot understand being a fan of the RSE as it exists in 2410. And that wasn't Cryptic that killed it - it was Shinzon that started the downward spiral of the old Empire, so the fall of the RSE is in fact full canon. Cryptic, and other authors of written works, just laid out the path that this downfall took.
By that measure, the Republic is the first solid footing of government to rise as a successor to the dying RSE. Triana supports it wholeheartedly.
All true.
Though my Romulan character actually models herself after the Romulans of TOS, especially the noble commander of the T'Liss in Balance of Terror, now he was a true soldier of the empire.
The only one who can "break" her quickly and thoroughly is Data. His report would be a very interesting and disturbing read.
On that subject in another time and place we would've gotten the ultimate conversation.
Sela and interrogated by the ultimate....Gul Madred.
To be a fly on the wall in that conversation.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Agreed, considering how suspect her villain pedigree was in TNG, they've really stepped up her game. Before when I thought about Sela I always thought about somehow reviving her humanity, at least getting her to acknowledge it. That story about it dying with her mother was rather heartbreaking to me.
Now though, it's like....just 86 her to keep her from ruining Tasha's good name any further.
Oh by the way, to all the people wanting to put Alternate Captain Picard up for war crimes for sending Tasha back to the Battle of Narendra III, please keep in mind that every one of us who beat Temporal Ambassador also sent Tasha back in time to the Battle of Narendra III thereby making us accomplices.
All true.
Though my Romulan character actually models herself after the Romulans of TOS, especially the knoble commander of the T'Liss in Balance of Terror, now he was a true soldier of the empire.
On that subject in another time and place we would've gotten the ultimate conversation.
Sela and interrogated by the ultimate....Gul Madred.
To be a fly on the wall in that conversation.
Plus, it's kinda hard to prosecute a dead man, as that Picard is most likely dead.
I can think of a certain. Carddasia. tailor that would have a trick or two to make her talk.
I still think, if she is legit' and really isnt still working for the Iconians, she is trying to get a bargain. The bargain she wants, odds are is on the galaxy can't afford to give her. Breaking down her ego is what must be done.
I can understand being a fan of the RSE we saw in TNG, DS9, etc. I cannot understand being a fan of the RSE as it exists in 2410. And that wasn't Cryptic that killed it - it was Shinzon that started the downward spiral of the old Empire, so the fall of the RSE is in fact full canon. Cryptic, and other authors of written works, just laid out the path that this downfall took.
QUOTE]
That's not the RSE, its Hakeev, And it was completely invented by Cryptic.
And regardless, D'Tan the Sewer Rat is the last person we would have lead us.
Many of us simply have to disregard the entire RR.
They invented this ridiculous "fall" as you call it simply out of making easy for them to not have to create content. Just make the Romulans a fraction and they still only have the 2 factions. Which now they have blended into one.
If you really have nothing better to do, you can keep arguing about this from an IC ("Watsonian") perspective - the legalities, what constitutes a True Romulan, etc etc - for another twenty pages... or save a lot of time, and just acknowledge the OOC ("Doylist") facts: like the Joker (and for the same reasons), Sela's never going to face justice. The writers at Cryptic - whatever's left of them at this point - will have her cut a deal that forces our characters to work with her, or simply escape, or probably both. She'll warp away, cackling and gloating, and we'll be left to grimly and uselessly vow, "next time..."
I'd love to be proven wrong, but I really don't think so. Trek writing and MMO writing rarely rise above cliches (which is why we so treasure the exceptions), and STO is often the worst of both worlds.
If you really have nothing better to do, you can keep arguing about this from an IC ("Watsonian") perspective - the legalities, what constitutes a True Romulan, etc etc - for another twenty pages... or save a lot of time, and just acknowledge the OOC ("Doylist") facts: like the Joker (and for the same reasons), Sela's never going to face justice. The writers at Cryptic - whatever's left of them at this point - will have her cut a deal that forces our characters to work with her, or simply escape, or probably both. She'll warp away, cackling and gloating, and we'll be left to grimly and uselessly vow, "next time..."
I'd love to be proven wrong, but I really don't think so. Trek writing and MMO writing rarely rise above cliches (which is why we so treasure the exceptions), and STO is often the worst of both worlds.
Or they could do something ingenius like have the Romulan people flock to Sela as opposed to the Federation puppet D'Tan, over thrown the pathetic republic.
Sela is the only actual romulan in the entire game and she's a freaking 1/2 breed!
That's not the RSE, its Hakeev, And it was completely invented by Cryptic.
And regardless, D'Tan the Sewer Rat is the last person we would have lead us.
If you're so willing to 'blame' the Republic on D'Tan, why can't you do the same with Hakeev and Sela? Those two were the leading figures in the RSE - Sela as Empress, Hakeev as her Tal Shiar leader. Whatever they did, the RSE did.
Also, if you want to blame D'Tan for unifying Romulans and Remans under a new banner, solidifying our safety, building us new infrastructure, repairing terrible Beta/Alpha Quadrant relations, and refusing to run anything even close to the Tal Shiar's corruption, then I can't help you. I'll choose D'Tan over whatever crawls out of the RSE any day.
Why doesn't Faux Romulas just join the federation and be done with it?
Because, despite the best efforts of the RSE to the contrary, we're an independent state. The Solanae Sphere is ours. We lead the Delta Expedition. We are considered the voice of the Romulan and Reman peoples, as the recognized legitimate government in Romulan space. The Federation and Klingon Empire respect us as equals, even if a select handful of individual captains don't. They don't go to the RSE when they want to speak with the Romulans - they call up D'Tan and the Republic.
The RSE is a political afterthought and a nuisance at this point. The Republic patrols Romulan space. The Republic is in the Delta Quadrant. The Republic is represented at multilateral negotiations. The RSE is nowhere to be found.
Comments
Because they are romulans in the first place, they are not humans. Just because they are in a Republic now, doesn't mean that their behavior towards war prisoners did change (too much).
Hopefully they'll start moving away from that 'Bajoran resistance/rebel alliance' thing they originally intended the Republic as.
Except STO builds directly on the events of Star Trek Nemesis and Star trek(2009) and uses it as its very foundation. :rolleyes:
Just because Star Trek has had stupid things in it before doesn't mean every stupid thing in the franchise gets a free pass. That's just completely vapid nonsense. There should at least be some attempt to have a degree of quality in the storytelling.
The Remans building a massive dreadnought in isolation that was more sophisticated than anything the Romulans themselves could build was one of many things that strained credulity to the breaking point in Nemesis.
Just because the Republic apparently has similarly inexplicably vast resources doesn't keep that from straining credulity. Nor vise versa. They are both Plot holes big enough to fly a Galaxy Class through.
Here's the thing, the Romulans are expert at questioning techniques, and would know that while certain techniques are off limits others can be used... and used effectively. None would require torture, physical harm, starvation or anything like that.
The first thing I would have done is stripped Sela of her "Romulan" status within the Republic and made her a human subject of the Romulan Republic. Strip her of her clothes, place her in a dark cell where she can't even see the tile let alone count them... just enough light so she can see the open toilet and the coverless bed... make sure she sees that everything she does is watched and recorded... no privacy. She's woken at random times with super bright lights and overly loud loud speakers... the temperature is always too cold or too warm.... never dangerous but never comfortable... her food is always of the consistancy and tastes like the food she absolutly hates... or doesn't taste like anything... using primarily suplemental vitamens for nurishment... and water to drink.
This is all done to remind her she's not Empress anymore... and in fact not even concidered a Romulan.. just a subject of the Republic.... let that eat at Sela's pride for a few weeks... and her demands will become surprisingly low when they come.
In the Interrogation I'm not letting her in control... ever... she has to realize that even with her barginning chip the iterrogator is in control. She doesn't speak, sit, stand or anythign without the interrogators say so. She doesn't want to speak... send her back...
All this and I haven't even laid a hand on her or removed her basic needs of life. All I've done is hit a blow to her pride and removed her dignity.
Oh and she wants to talk. When she said what she said it's because she wants to tell it... but her pride won't let her just do it. So I'm giving her reading material. I'm giving her the writings of Spock and D'Tan... every bit of Anti-Sela writings out there.... everything that ever praised Taris.... and a bunch of readings celebrating the life of her mother and Picard.
Oh I'll give in to her demands... but ensure she knows it's under my terms not hers...
Unjust by Federation standards, yes. But seemingly acceptable by the Republic. The worst she's experienced so far is boredom, although yes Federation law would require this be handled completely differently. But she's under Republic jurisdiction right now.
Sorry, I don't buy that. If his involvement in the unificationist movement is proof of him being a 'terrorist,' then that's pretty weak. They were a peaceful movement.
Of course, some took it too far. Guaranteed Spock and D'Tan would never have wanted anyone to be killed for 'the cause,' so I doubt the M'ret defection was organized by D'Tan's group - more likely his aides and own personal network / range of influence. Either way, M'ret was escaping persecution, so I hardly see unificationists as terrorists.
Even if my in-game persona doesn't agree with unification, Triana hardly sees unificationists as the enemy. The RSE freely took that title, when it started abducting and massacring its own people for wanting more freedoms.
We have an entire sector block. Time will tell what happens to the rest of Romulan space in the long-run. Also, the new Command ships, the Aelahl, the Ar'kif... those are all said to be Repbulic-built ships in their descriptions.
And the Republic must be doing plenty well for itself, if it can stand as an equal power to the Klingon Empire and Federation in matters of the Beta/Alpha Quadrant relations, the Spheres, the Delta Quadrant, etc.
This is one thing I'm looking for as well - more infrastructure shown for the Republic. Kinda frustrated that my signature screenshot needed to be taken in a Fed drydock for now. Hopefully expanding New Romulus is on the drawing board soon.
Agreed here. There would need to be something akin to "The Path to 2409" written about Republic society to put the legal structure into context. Mind you, that's not a bad idea if the devs did want to release that kinda in-depth sociological information on the Republic. It'd be a neat read, for sure.
Late addendum to my earlier post, on the topic that the Republic isn't just one single planet.
I made a listing of the known allegiances of non-RSE star systems in Romulan space a while back. Here's what I came up with, as well as RSE transgressions against Republic and independent locations.
Republic Systems:
- Tau Dewa
> New Romulus / Dewa
> Crateris: former Reman homeworld, destroyed and abandoned after TS / Elachi raid
> Nequencia: Republic trade hub
> Virinat: destroyed and abandoned after TS / Elachi raid
- Psi Velorum
> Chulan: site of RhInno station, subject to Elachi raiding
> Haakona: site of the Reman Resistance home base, subject to TS raiding
- Iota Pavonis
> Delta Corvi: destroyed and abandoned after TS / Elachi raid
- Alpha Centauri
> Sienae: Republic colony, subject to Elachi raiding
> Tephrei: Republic station, subject to Elachi raiding
Independent Systems:
- Eirhess (Alpha Centauri): site of Romulan refugee population post-Romulus
- Gasko (Tau Dewa): site of Romulan refugee population post-Romulus
- Khaiell (Psi Velorum): independent joint Romulan / Vulcan colony
- Rhi (Alpa Centauri): independent colony voted against joining RSE, has since been subject to Elachi raids
- Sarita (Iota Pavonis): one of the original colonies to decline joining RSE, and had appealed to Federation prior to Republic's formation
So no, the Republic is not just a single location on life support. And I'd fully expect, as someone else mentioned, that rebuilding some of the damage done on planets like the Remans' previous homeworld is being done.
Also, I see the only entity doing the terrorizing here is the RSE and their Elachi friends.
That'll just make her a martyr for one. Also to those who are hopeing that D'Tan is better then the Tal'Shiar that would just prove that he's not, something the Empire will tout, and loose the Republic face.
Though I'd personally give her to the Klingons before giving her to the Federation. Klingons know how to deal with stubborn prisoners.
again all this "refugee" nonsense. There were never any "refugees". Anyone near Romulus was dead, anyone not on Romulus simply moved to one of the MANY Romulan planents. There were never people wearing rags trying to eek out an existence in a broken down trailer park.
If London blows up people in Liverpool don't put on torn overalls and scarves and start wandering the planet.
Anyway,
Sela seems to been on trial for Hakeev's crimes mostly.
You're forgetting that massive amounts of wealth were destroyed with Romulus, and a large percentage of Romulans who were off-world at the time would have been military. Many of the others would have lost all Romulus-based assets.
If my house burns down, I'm not in very good shape regardless of how much money I have. Most of my possessions are destroyed, I have only the clothes on my back.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
Then she court-martialed him. He does have a thing for redheads though. What the construction of the Scimitar?
While Shinzon said the Remans constructed it, it's just as likely and far more viable, that it was a Tal Shiar shipbuilding project that Reman slave labor constructed.
Why would the Tal Shiar construct a monster like that?
Because they were still stinging and pissed off about the debacle that was the "Battle" of the Omarion Nebula, also known as the Cardassian Romulan Turkey Shoot.
Now you bring the Scimitar to that party and suddenly the Founders are on the Critically Endangered Species list.
Then Shinzon got a hold of it.
Or perhaps it's the other way around. They were in construction of it before the battle of the Omarion Nebula, and then when the Tal Shiar took so many horrible losses there, Shinzon and his Reman brothers were able to usurp the ship without resistance. I say that because the Obsidian Order itself effectively ceased to exist at that battle, and with a Founder in Romulan disguise calling the shots, I can't imagine he would leave the other great threat the Tal Shiar in much better position. Just more difficult because there were more of them. Indeed, though these things change.
For instance, I doubt the current Cardassian Union still uses the, "You're already guilty and convicted, the trial is your opportunity to confess for the good of the state" model that the pre-Treaty of Bajor Cardassian Union used. But during that era of Cardassian history that was considered a fair trial that showcased the power of the state so that the people would have faith in the power of the state.
I would think that Romulan Republic's form of jurisprudence would resemble Rome's, while also having the best parts of old Romulus and Vulcan ideals. I'd expect a strong emphasis on scientifically verified physical evidence. Lots of personal testimony...LOTS. I would think that D'tan would bar her normal political enemies, as what she did to them on Rator III to keep them in line is likely not going to come into play.
Even the writers and producers have struck that one from the record...thank the Great Bird.
Ahhh the 60s.
Humans can survive without a functional brain today. As long as Spock's brain stem was intact, his autonomous functions, such as breathing and heart beat would continue. Not saying it isn't a stupid episode. Just that that wasn't the worst part. That would be Remote Control Spock. They didn't even make an R/C toy out of it.
This is true. We should all be thankful from oversexed Ferengi hasn't beamed our female officers off of our bridge without their clothes.
Tell that to the people on Hfihar.
There were plenty of people who were refugees. The people who managed to get off of Romulus with the 18 hours of warning. Those people had nowhere to go.
Your analogy is also pitifully low. This wasn't London being nuked. This was the entire isle of Great Britain being sunk like Atlantis and the rest of Commonwealth being left to wither on the vine. The primary industry, the government, the sciences, the overwhelming majority of the population. 18 billion people. Dead. No imports from the home world, no news, no leadership, no new ship construction. And how many Romulan worlds, how many Romulan nobles vying for power in the vacuum. While you have Klingons trying to slide in to take advantage. How many Orions and Nausicaans looking for a quick buck off the backs of the average Romulan citizen who no longer has a super power's military to protect them?
And there was a Supernova. How many people weren't killed by the shockwaved, but by the gamma ray burst? And how many Romulan worlds were between Hobus and Romulus?
There were refugees and plenty of them. Even if you don't comprehend the scale of the catastrophe.
And Sela has plenty of her own crimes to answer for, though you're correct since she was in exile she can't be pinned for the destruction of Romulus.
First, it really brought forward Sela as a character. And we've had a mystery, for quite a long time, about just what her relationship is with the Iconians. We knew that she must be a remarkable individual to escape the Iconians as she did, but most of that happened off-stage. We've been told that Empress Sela is full of guile, a master manipulator, but I think this is the first time we've really seen it.
The writers really nailed the trick of placing her as someone dangerous, that you can't trust, but must.
Part of what happens in that scene is that she's probing the Republic, in the person of her interrogator, for weaknesses.
And it's interesting what this scene reveals about the Republic. On the one hand, they didn't try physical torture, or any sort of mind control device. On the other hand, they deprived her of her basic rights as a prisoner -- solitary confinement, lack of access to reading material or any other meaningful activity. (This sort of treatment is, in fact, torture.)
This suggests that the Republic has a weakness: it's ambivalent about its identity. They're not the old Star Empire, but they're not the Federation or Klingon Empire, either. So who are they now? What is the new Romulan way?
And of course, this sets up for a classic Star Trek dilemma: pragmatism or principle, expediency or honor.
Debriefing session 29
Interviewer: Please answer the question.
subject: No
Interviewer: Yes
subject: No
Interviewer: Yes
subject: No
Interviewer: Yes
subject: No
Interviewer: Yes
>>> several hours later
Interviewer: Did you order the kdinapping of civilians for Elachi experiments etc?
Subject: Did not
Interviewer: Did so
.
Subject: Did not
Interviewer: Did so
.
Subject: Did not
Interviewer: Did so
.
.
.
>> this continues for several hours
this made me laugh so f&%@ing hard
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
I have a Romulan Republic character named Vivara, who serves in Starfleet as well, and she is very proud of the Republic that has been built up in the wake of the Hobus Disaster -- and if she has anything to say about how Sela is being treated, it's that as horrible as Sela is (and Vivara knows she is), the Republic cannot hope to retain any credibility in the Galaxy if it does not afford basic sentient rights to all citizens and prisoners alike. If we have any desire to keep the trust that we've garnered up until now, we will allow the Federation (and the Klingon Empire, if they so desire) to observe our treatment of Sela and to either send legal counsel for her, if no Republic attorney is willing to represent her, or to work with any Republic attorneys who are willing to do so.
Secrecy only serves to allow abuses that we would otherwise be ashamed to have come to light.
As of now, Vivara is very disappointed in D'Tan. All of his fine words mean nothing if they don't apply to the worst of us as well as the best of us.
As others have noted, destroying Romulus was enough of a blow to disrupt the Empire's systems.
Also, many of the people on these other planets were in fact deprived of regular goods. 'Cause the RSE had a habit of TRIBBLE with their affairs. Oh, and blowing the living TRIBBLE outta the planets during raids. The RSE made many of these independent worlds into refugee camps. If the RSE hadn't taken an "Empire or suffer the consequences" approach, maybe the rest of us would've been ok.
It's honestly hard to say. The Federation President said that existing treaties with the Romulans died with Romulus itself - in that instance referencing the Treaty of Algeron, but applying it in general as well. So by the Federation's own admission, the Republic is not bound to any treaties signed by the RSE with the Federation.
I doubt that broader-reaching treaties have been signed at this point. Basic mutual-protection agreements, policies governing the Solanae Sphere, and guidelines for the Delta Expedition most likely. But I do doubt that shared legal standards have been on the table yet.
Overall I agree, even if to most the interrogator came off as ineffectual. He only has so much leeway here, and she is in fact a master Romulan politician. Knowing how to lie and subvert your opponent's questions and truths was a necessary skill in the empire. He was clearly going against someone above his skill level, she's not just some spy.
Interesting, My RRF character Azuria would be amazed that they've shown so much restraint.
Like I said, I think her current treatment is more than just about her legal status. I think they view her as a very high security risk. Imagine how many people would be disappointed in D'Tan if he let SELA escape.
She broke out of an Iconian prison with only the distraction of us showing up. Like I said, I think the not allowing verbal contact is partly to prevent her from turning any of her guards. No pens or pencils because they can be weaponized, I'm fairly certain no paper is to prevent her from making a fire...or a weapon (paper can be folded to make a shank), no PADD is to prevent her from accessing the computer. This woman has a history of being an intelligence operative and all around dirty dealer. She can't be underestimated.
And while you're disappointed in his fine words, keep in mind that no one has use any neural probes, or submitted her to any of the TRIBBLE that she put us through. We're being a heck of a lot nicer to her than she was to us when our positions were reversed.
So forgive me if I don't find Sela being bored and not being allowed to see a lawyer to be a grievous violation of her sapient rights.
That said. If anything their tactics are a waste of time. If she does have viable intel then attaining her cooperation is the top priority. As long as you don't give her amnesty for her crimes getting her some recreational time shouldn't be a problem. The Read/Write locked PADD is a good start. But no matter what, she must stand trial.
The higher the risk of flight, or inflitcting damage on others, the less "rights" are afforded to them. I have no problem with that. Those are common breaking techniques used on people. If you call that torture, God help you when you see real torture. Heck, it almost sounds like an escalation of the punishment onegets as a child being grounded, sent to ones room and not allowed to have forms of entertainment. Heck, the RR probably didnt even feed her desert.
I think that some people forget what exactly she is being charged with, of course she is going to be so restrained in even basic "rights". Its not even simple murder or mass murder on a scale typical humanity comprehends. How much blood is on her hands? I feel no sympathy for her situation.
Im sorry but when people toss around the label of torture as broadly as that, it strikes a nerve.
To be honest a lot of fans are RSE empire fans and not this fed friendly RR. I for one agree on getting the information by any means posible. Forced mindmeld likr Spock does to Valeris. Truth Serum like they mention in TOS. Mind probe or mind sifter if she resists all the former. Especially whar she has done to prisoner in the past
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I think Cryptic's done something very impressive with Sela. They've created a character that truly repulses me. And not because of bad writing, but due to exceptionally good writing.
The atrocities committed under her order - directly or indirectly - as Empress are absolutely disgusting. Striking a deal with the Elachi and providing Romulans and Remans as warm bodies for genetic playtime, full-out mind-altering indoctrination techniques, adapting Borg technology to her fleet... as well as to unfortunate test subjects.
Of course, Hakeev had his hands over a lot of this too, but Sela has her hands just as dirty. Both of them committed or signed off on incredibly brutal attacks against Romulan and Reman innocents on a regular basis. Their repression of any and all resistance was also complete - whether it was a Republic or otherwise independent target, Romulans and Remans were subjected to a full-scale invasion and brutally murdered en masse. And those that died during the siege were clearly the lucky ones.
Either way, hat tip to Cryptic. They've created one of the most disgusting Trek villains of all-time, and really confronted the players with some morally reprehensible acts. That mission when you're under Tal Shiar indoctrination and have to subject a Republic prisoner to Borg modifications... yeah, that one still hurts. Not to mention seeing captured Romulans and Remans in Elachi labs.
So I agree - Sela is in fact a dangerous prisoner, and whatever she gets is less than she deserves. It's very telling however, that the Republic is taking a decidedly different approach than the RSE ever would've considered, and that full-out torture doesn't seem to be in the playbook. Triana, as a Romulan who is fully aware of some of the atrocities of the old RSE, can only appreciate that her Republic is showing itself to indeed be a better, more honest state.
I can understand being a fan of the RSE we saw in TNG, DS9, etc. I cannot understand being a fan of the RSE as it exists in 2410. And that wasn't Cryptic that killed it - it was Shinzon that started the downward spiral of the old Empire, so the fall of the RSE is in fact full canon. Cryptic, and other authors of written works, just laid out the path that this downfall took.
By that measure, the Republic is the first solid footing of government to rise as a successor to the dying RSE. Triana supports it wholeheartedly.
Now though, it's like....just 86 her to keep her from ruining Tasha's good name any further.
Oh by the way, to all the people wanting to put Alternate Captain Picard up for war crimes for sending Tasha back to the Battle of Narendra III, please keep in mind that every one of us who beat Temporal Ambassador also sent Tasha back in time to the Battle of Narendra III thereby making us accomplices.
All true.
Though my Romulan character actually models herself after the Romulans of TOS, especially the noble commander of the T'Liss in Balance of Terror, now he was a true soldier of the empire.
On that subject in another time and place we would've gotten the ultimate conversation.
Sela and interrogated by the ultimate....Gul Madred.
To be a fly on the wall in that conversation.
Plus, it's kinda hard to prosecute a dead man, as that Picard is most likely dead.
I can think of a certain. Carddasia. tailor that would have a trick or two to make her talk.
I still think, if she is legit' and really isnt still working for the Iconians, she is trying to get a bargain. The bargain she wants, odds are is on the galaxy can't afford to give her. Breaking down her ego is what must be done.
I'd love to be proven wrong, but I really don't think so. Trek writing and MMO writing rarely rise above cliches (which is why we so treasure the exceptions), and STO is often the worst of both worlds.
Or they could do something ingenius like have the Romulan people flock to Sela as opposed to the Federation puppet D'Tan, over thrown the pathetic republic.
Sela is the only actual romulan in the entire game and she's a freaking 1/2 breed!
If you're so willing to 'blame' the Republic on D'Tan, why can't you do the same with Hakeev and Sela? Those two were the leading figures in the RSE - Sela as Empress, Hakeev as her Tal Shiar leader. Whatever they did, the RSE did.
Also, if you want to blame D'Tan for unifying Romulans and Remans under a new banner, solidifying our safety, building us new infrastructure, repairing terrible Beta/Alpha Quadrant relations, and refusing to run anything even close to the Tal Shiar's corruption, then I can't help you. I'll choose D'Tan over whatever crawls out of the RSE any day.
Because, despite the best efforts of the RSE to the contrary, we're an independent state. The Solanae Sphere is ours. We lead the Delta Expedition. We are considered the voice of the Romulan and Reman peoples, as the recognized legitimate government in Romulan space. The Federation and Klingon Empire respect us as equals, even if a select handful of individual captains don't. They don't go to the RSE when they want to speak with the Romulans - they call up D'Tan and the Republic.
The RSE is a political afterthought and a nuisance at this point. The Republic patrols Romulan space. The Republic is in the Delta Quadrant. The Republic is represented at multilateral negotiations. The RSE is nowhere to be found.