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Skill Point Update

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  • janus1975janus1975 Member Posts: 739 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I really don't understand the player base. XP was nerfed. Kills award, proportionately, less xp. DOFFing rewards less xp. The only communication on the issue is unpleasant and principally ignores it. Why doesn't this bother people? Is it just that the folks bothered by such things have largely already left? Is it that the forum goers are desperate for any interaction with devs in a game where it seems as if there is little to no interest in interacting with players, testing changes, or attempting to ascertain what is fun about the game?

    In my case, emotionally I've left STO in terms of viewing it as a serious game. Since after the first week of DR, I go in, do some bits and pieces, and leave again. I won't spend more money on this game, but I'm not "leaving" either. I'm using up their bandwidth, because I've paid for a lot of stuff in the past, AND it's a way to chat with other ST fans. And so I go in and do a little grind here, play one of the missions from STO's heyday like "what lies beneath" there, do a bit of dancing on ESB or play dabo on Drozana...

    In the meantime, this month my "Entertainment Budget" will get spent elsewhere, on non-Perfectworld games.

    To worry about stuff like XP, I'd need to get back into being a serious player who felt the need to "level up" to reach endgame content. Which would mean I'd need to feel that it was worthwhile, and that it would provide a steady and stable experience. I'd need to be sure that stuff wouldn't be nerfed next week as yet another "ZOMG this isn't being used the way we personally expected!" knee-jerk reaction grips the devs, making any investment moot. They might, or might not. But I'm not trying to play it that way anymore, so its not really "skin off my nose" anymore. I'll add my experience to the mix so other players can make their own decisions, and maybe, one day, Cryptic will wake up to themselves.

    So considering that Cryptic are no longer in my field of vision, and I don't think they're really paying attention anyway, why complain to them?
  • sheldonlcoopersheldonlcooper Member Posts: 4,042 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Overall, though, I'm more perplexed, really, why they constantly feel this very negative, punitive drive towards nerfing everything. I get it when it involves taking away mission rewards; but I can't, for the life of me, fathom why they're so obsessed with slowing ppl down. They think I'm gonna stop playing when I filled my Specialization tree or something?!
    .

    I've been perplexed about this as well. I can't believe it's to sell exp boosts. Those can not possibly be big sellers. No, I think it's that we're supposed to be buying more T6 ships than we have been. Too many people used T5U.

    The response is - well - you're not getting any ship traits for those unless you buy T6 ships.

    If the winter ship is T6 carrier with a carrier specific trait that doesn't help many people so it's ok.

    It's a longshot idea but I really can't see the profit in this. In fact it kills alts (and mains) so in the long run it kills profits.
    Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."

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  • fuglassfuglass Member Posts: 95 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    iconians wrote: »
    I see it more as a self-fulfilling prophecy than a loss of hope. I see it speeding up a loss of hope by burning yourself out and getting all your emotional energy spent at once before any sort of concessions can be made.

    If there is any hope for positive, meaningful change and concessions, it is through removing your emotion and personal investment out of the equation.

    But I think you already know that. So all I am seeing, is a self-fulfilling prophecy. You want to be hopeless, so you look for ways (either consciously or subconsciously) to make sure you remain hopeless.

    Thanks Dr. Iconians, I'm no where near self aware enough to determine how I feel myself. ;)
  • iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    janus1975 wrote: »
    a serious game

    I have never understood this term. It is like military intelligence, jumbo shrimp, or honest politician. It's contradictory.
    ExtxpTp.jpg
  • xiaoping88xiaoping88 Member Posts: 1,493 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    iconians wrote: »
    I have never understood this term. It is like military intelligence, jumbo shrimp, or honest politician. It's contradictory.

    None of these are really contradictory...
    Reality is an illusion.
    The universe is a hologram.
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    Buy gold!
  • iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    fuglass wrote: »
    Thanks Dr. Iconians, I'm no where near self aware enough to determine how I feel myself. ;)

    I'll send you my bill next month. I only accept refined dilithium and unconquered portions of the milky way galaxy.
    ExtxpTp.jpg
  • coulomb2coulomb2 Member Posts: 40 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    So far I've heard an inductive argument that supports that critter kill XP didn't actually go up while the mission reward did, and accusations that DOff XP didn't increase. The latter I can check on my own, and would prefer to - I can't be sure the people making that accusation are actually looking in the right place for that.

    But with ship kills, I'm curious if anyone has the actual numbers - this should be pretty easy to confirm since what I've seen so far implies those numbers didn't go up.

    I generally dislike teaming here, so I almost always play solo - which, of course, means my numbers really need to be checked against someone else who is doing a patrol run solo (and on normal).

    Basically, a "frigate" class killed awarded approximately 40 skill points before the patch today; usually 30-40 based on how much it had been "chewed on" by NPCs before I got to it.

    A "cruiser" class killed awarded approximately 200 skill points (it might have been as high as 240, I don't remember).

    I *thought* battleships were somewhere in the 300s, but I'm not clear enough about that to know for sure. But it's not important, frigates and cruisers should be enough (even though it'd be interesting to see what the number for a battleship actually is).

    I *do* know that those kill numbers didn't change at all the entire time I was 51+. So either they weren't level-based, or the scaling was so small it tended to get lost in the "bleed" from an NPC ally chewing a bit on the ship before I finished off.

    If somebody could pop into a patrol (again, solo, on normal) and pop a few frigates and cruisers, and post how much they get for each kill, that'll tell us if ship kills stayed static, if they increased by the ~2.9 geko posted, or if they increased, but not by that much.

    If it is the 2.9 from geko, a frigate should be between about 90 and about 116. And a cruiser about 580 or so. (And a battleship at least 900, if not more)

    If it didn't increase at all (or barely any), then that's a bug (and I'm inclined to take geko at his word if he says a bug will be tracked down and fixed) - I did double check the OP and they clearly said critter kill rewards were supposed to go up.

    If they did increase, but by the ~2.9 factor, then it could be either (it makes the OP technically true regarding "increased skill point for critter kills", so that raises the possibility it is working as intended - although that does make the OP statement that the rate of leveling remains the same incorrect).
  • fuglassfuglass Member Posts: 95 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    iconians wrote: »
    I'll send you my bill next month. I only accept refined dilithium and unconquered portions of the milky way galaxy.

    Dammit not my DIL!!!!! You know that's harder to come by than flying pigs these days!


    That 300 sec wait suck don't it?? :)


    Seriously this is a serious thread and I apologize to all for my part in highjacking it with my discussion with Iconians.
  • firestorm10491firestorm10491 Member Posts: 109 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Looking at the descriptions the skill points needed are really confusing 50 and 54 both show 366k SP needed and they both can't be right. 54-55 shows a need of 750,420?

    If you explain the descriptions there CaptainGeko I think those might be off because doing any math on those really doesn't add up. I'd say there is a bug in at least the descriptions.

    *Update*

    I confirmed this with a Lt3 that said they needed 20k to gain level lt4 but the mission only gave 4k but I got halfway through LT4.

    The descriptions are messed up its not our gain that is messed up Captain Geko is right. His math is right but the description is wrong.
  • iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    fuglass wrote: »
    Dammit not my DIL!!!!! You know that's harder to come by than flying pigs these days!

    Wait until Q comes out with the Targ Party Popper next anniversary event, then you'll see pigs fly.
    ExtxpTp.jpg
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    fuglass wrote: »
    I think it's human nature to rage at the loss of hope.

    Not to wax philosophical here, but I think it's actually *hope* that causes pain! Being on the edge of not having given up, still clinging on to that last ray of hope, constantly seeing it dashed again. As Headmaster Stimpson put it so well in Clockwise,

    "It's not the despair, Laura. I can stand the despair. It's the hope!"

    Dr. Kira. :P
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • cidstormcidstorm Member Posts: 1,220 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Cryptic has hit rock bottom. There's no hope for these guys anymore.
  • janus1975janus1975 Member Posts: 739 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    iconians wrote: »
    I have never understood this term. It is like military intelligence, jumbo shrimp, or honest politician. It's contradictory.

    I know you're prolly saying this half-joking but worth clarifying anyway. In my case, shorthand for:
    • Put real cash into zen
    • Buy ships, dilithium, boffs, doffs, slots, tokens
    • Make a point to spend some time on every toon every day (even if just to set doff assignments)
    • Grind to get top-level reputation equipment for every toon

    As an example, if I were to play DR "seriously", I'd have ground out T5 Delta Rep for one toon, get sponsor tokens for the other 8, grind out T5 for all those, and then grind out a series of sets for toons which had ships that could do with Delta equipment.

    And then provide info/insight to fleet members etc on the equipment and my personal experience with using it with various toons.

    So serious in terms of "investment of time and money to get the best experience out of this game", rather than what's happened: one toon with DR completed (almost, if you don't count being unable to get the final mission to complete and dropping it after getting stuck twice), that one toon at Reputation T3 Delta, that's it. And no plans to take any of the other 8 anywhere near the Delta Quadrant.
  • iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    janus1975 wrote: »
    I know you're prolly saying this half-joking but worth clarifying anyway. In my case, shorthand for:
    • Put real cash into zen
    • Buy ships, dilithium, boffs, doffs, slots, tokens
    • Make a point to spend some time on every toon every day (even if just to set doff assignments)
    • Grind to get top-level reputation equipment for every toon

    As an example, if I were to play DR "seriously", I'd have ground out T5 Delta Rep for one toon, get sponsor tokens for the other 8, grind out T5 for all those, and then grind out a series of sets for toons which had ships that could do with Delta equipment.

    And then provide info/insight to fleet members etc on the equipment and my personal experience with using it with various toons.

    So serious in terms of "investment of time and money to get the best experience out of this game", rather than what's happened: one toon with DR completed (almost, if you don't count being unable to get the final mission to complete and dropping it after getting stuck twice), that one toon at Reputation T3 Delta, that's it. And no plans to take any of the other 8 anywhere near the Delta Quadrant.

    Wow, just kill my joke brutally. Now I feel bad.
    ExtxpTp.jpg
  • vivenneanthonyvivenneanthony Member Posts: 1,278 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    coulomb2 wrote: »
    So far I've heard an inductive argument that supports that critter kill XP didn't actually go up while the mission reward did, and accusations that DOff XP didn't increase. The latter I can check on my own, and would prefer to - I can't be sure the people making that accusation are actually looking in the right place for that.

    But with ship kills, I'm curious if anyone has the actual numbers - this should be pretty easy to confirm since what I've seen so far implies those numbers didn't go up.

    I generally dislike teaming here, so I almost always play solo - which, of course, means my numbers really need to be checked against someone else who is doing a patrol run solo (and on normal).

    Ship kills did not go up. There supposedbly a patch that will increase ship kilss in DQ sectors.

    Note, that means, Cryptic/Dev whoever is trying to force players to play DR content and additionally buy T6 ships.
  • janus1975janus1975 Member Posts: 739 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    iconians wrote: »
    Wow, just kill my joke brutally. Now I feel bad.

    All part of the service :D
  • sarosssaross Member Posts: 248 Media Corps
    edited November 2014
    While there are a lot of numbers changing, we have taken extra care to make sure that the speed at which players level up will remain the same as it is now.

    I'm sorry, but before I could do a good number of Queued events and at the end of about 10 or so, wind up with a Spec point.

    After todays patch same amount of time pure running and I haven't even filled one. So it was the same how?

    This is enough where I'm no longer willing to spend money, no longer willing to promote the game to friends, and almost no longer willing to play this game.

    Sure some of the XP has increased, but are we expected to do the longest missions day in and day out until our brains fall out because those contain the most XP in the fewest missions?

    You guys have done nothing but gone and made this a part time job. And close to being a full time job. Before I could at least do things and feel a since of accomplishment. Now, it's a joke. Bad enough that that filling T5 of the Fleet Starbase is like a pencil putting a dent into the side battle ship expecting a hole to form.

    This needs a fix, and now. Not later. This has become a laughing stock, and enough to drive good dedicated players further from the game.
    Need help with a mission to beat it? Visit http://pilotreviewshow.com to learn how we can help!

    Top DPS 102k
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    All I know is my progress seems to be significantly slower than it was pre-patch from nearly all activity. I have no desire to find the exact cause, nor will I rule out it being just my flawed observations. Unfortunately though considering the reputation the development team and QA team of this game have earned my guess would be bugs.

    If you guys really want to see if something is off? Log on to a real character and play for an hour on the live server.
  • coulomb2coulomb2 Member Posts: 40 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Ship kills did not go up. There supposedbly a patch that will increase ship kilss in DQ sectors.

    Note, that means, Cryptic/Dev whoever is trying to force players to play DR content and additionally buy T6 ships.

    I literally just saw a post where an increase (but not by x2.9) was reported. By definition, only one of them can be correct (or neither). I give up. I'll check it myself when I get a chance. My mistake. Trying to get accurate information out of angry people is usually an unwise decision.
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    coulomb2 wrote: »
    I literally just saw a post where an increase (but not by x2.9) was reported. By definition, only one of them can be correct (or neither). I give up. I'll check it myself when I get a chance. My mistake. Trying to get accurate information out of angry people is usually an unwise decision.

    In that case it is most likely that it depends on the particular ship destroyed. Kazon might not have been buffed but Hirogen were for example.
  • krilldarnkrilldarn Member Posts: 211 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    i did write a long reply but your a lucky lot and got a reprieve when i hit preview and the whole lot vanished....

    so will post it tomorrow after i have slept on it
  • voporakvoporak Member Posts: 5,621 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    If there was one person who could pull me out of not playing and not posting on the forums, indeed it would be Geko.

    Mr. Rivera, I do believe you are an intelligent man with a good sense of humor. I respect you and think you deserve such respect.

    However.

    You are the lead dev of this game. As I understand it, you are just below D'Angelo on the metaphorical ladder. You carry a lot of responsibility and expectation. It is entirely true that this game's forum is a toxic wasteland, biting every dev in sight like an overaggressive snake. You are certainly quite justified in responding to a poster in the manner you did... but that does not make it the right decision.

    As aforementioned, you are the top dog of the devs. Given this most recent post and your statements in the past, I find it most logical to make the conjecture that you do not fully grasp the delicate art of interacting with this community. Cryptic/PWE is without a shadow of a doubt entrenched within a PR disaster. As the lead dev, it is your responsibility to calmly and carefully analyze the situation and make an appropriate response. To be honest, I do expect a lead dev to thoroughly consider his words before making his first response to a highly explosive topic.

    I am uncertain whether you realize the reputation you have. Your track record is one of speaking your mind, which again is something which must be cautiously monitored as the lead dev. Your comments in the past (PvP'rs = 14yr old minmaxers, no useful feedback despite useful feedback present) have been far less than stellar, usually coming off as what an abrasive forum poster might respond with. I reiterate once more, as the lead dev you should not be stooping to that level.

    Right now, in response to how you treat feedback, I could say, "Grow a pair and find the useful posts amongst the trash." However, what I should say is, "I suggest that you spend some time exploring productive and constructive threads before discarding everything." In your replies, whether on the forum or in podcasts, align to the attitude of the former. Perhaps you do not utilize adolescent phrases when addressing the playerbase, but the tone and snark remains the same.

    I believe I have at this point made it abundantly clear how you must handle your replies as lead dev. There is a time for jokes, but given your track record and the situation at hand, jokes are inappropriate. I also respectfully disagree with certain posters here and discourage you from snarking back at the playerbase at all, no matter how toxic it may be to you.

    I challenge you, Mr. Rivera, to examine your response style and handle the playerbase in a respectful and dignified manner, because you occupy a position of respect.

    Good night everyone.
    I ask nothing but that you remember me.
  • gulberatgulberat Member Posts: 5,505 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    It is definitely not the time to try to be funny--but to be fair, he did apologize for his remark after it was pointed out that it could be viewed as insulting.

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  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    So... pitchforks and torches time?

    I think it's actually well past that. It's almost apathy o'clock.

    I was getting 1-1.5 spec levels a week. Just completed a bunch of DOff assignments and bar didn't visibly budge.

    So, eh. Maybe I'll login when I feel like it. Or not. Until the winter event. Or not.

    I give up on spec points.
  • captcokecancaptcokecan Member Posts: 143 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I think it's actually well past that. It's almost apathy o'clock.

    I was getting 1-1.5 spec levels a week. Just completed a bunch of DOff assignments and bar didn't visibly budge.

    So, eh. Maybe I'll login when I feel like it. Or not. Until the winter event. Or not.

    I give up on spec points.

    I was looking forward to getting the ability to train Level 3 Intel abilities, but, now with this massive wall facing me... I think you're right. It IS apathy o'clock.
    Hey I just vaped you, and this is crazy;
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  • vivenneanthonyvivenneanthony Member Posts: 1,278 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    This is my quick research.

    Before running CCA
    http://imgur.com/a/FQULx#0

    After running CCA
    http://imgur.com/a/FQULx#1

    My only specialization experience gained was 2,275. I'm a level 60 player playing advance in elite difficulty.

    This is a Nerf. No wonder queues are dead. The gain is garbage. Considering I need to get 148,532 specialization experience for one captain thing.

    The numbers is right there on the upper left. It's super clear as day.

    What metrics are you using again???

    Congradulations, you got your wish. Your math is completely wrong. You win one internet!

    First, before and after the patch, the SP cost per level changed every level. That is, the costs were not static from 50-55 as you mentioned. Here are the actual numbers:

    Was:

    Level.............SP required
    50-51...........10,000
    50-52...........11,000
    50-53...........18,000
    50-54...........28,500
    50-55...........31,500
    50-56...........45,000
    50-57...........49,500
    50-58...........48,000
    50-59...........54,000
    50-60...........55,500

    Argala Normal rewarded: 944


    Now:
    Level.............SP required
    50-51...........12,500
    50-52...........31,820
    50-53...........51,600
    50-54...........81,700
    50-55...........90,300
    50-56...........129,000
    50-57...........137,600
    50-58...........141,900
    50-59...........154,800
    50-60...........154,800

    Argala Normal now rewards: 2730


    Increase in SP costs:
    154,800/55,500=2.79 times more

    Increase is SP rewarded from Argala:
    2730/944=2.89

    So this missions award slightly more proportionally to the increase in SP. Each mission will vary slightly – because math.

    All these numbers were just double checked in data and in game and appear accurate from our end.

    Now I don’t know if you are considering SP from critter kills. That is certainly going to vary greatly if you kill a lot of critters versus another with few critters (and the Delta Patrols vary greatly and each time you play many of them generate a random number of waves). But remember critters also received an increase in proportion to the new requirements.

    To be clear, player progression should be the same now as it was before. In fact, Starship Mastery will be faster since critter ships award a lot more SP and Starship Master requirement did not go up.

    The main reason this change was made was there were odd discrepancies at each level causing some rewards (critter kill, doff assignments, and missions) to be lower at higher levels. The change fixes that. I give you my word no one is trying to pull a fast one on the community. It is entirely possible there is a bug we are unaware of. If there is, we will find it and fix it.


    I hope this clears things up.



    Very Best Regards,
    LLAP,

    -Al “Captain Geko” Rivera
  • nephilim83nephilim83 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    coulomb2 wrote: »
    I literally just saw a post where an increase (but not by x2.9) was reported. By definition, only one of them can be correct (or neither). I give up. I'll check it myself when I get a chance. My mistake. Trying to get accurate information out of angry people is usually an unwise decision.

    I've been keeping a log of XP rewards for a while, trying to identify the most efficient ways to level alts without sacrificing any enjoyment. Here are the numbers I had before compared to the numbers I got today...

    Pre-patch:

    Argala - Normal - Solo - lvl 60 - Kazon ships - 4331 Specialization Points per run

    Post-patch:

    Argala - Normal - Solo - lvl 60 - Kazon Ships - 7695 Specialization Points per run


    The end rewards was indeed increased from ~900 to ~2900, as Geko stated. However, specialization points received for critter kills were not increased to the same scale. If everything stated in the OP was correct, one should receive ~12,993 per run. Whether it was intentional or not, XP gain was nerfed overall.
  • vivenneanthonyvivenneanthony Member Posts: 1,278 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    coulomb2 wrote: »
    I literally just saw a post where an increase (but not by x2.9) was reported. By definition, only one of them can be correct (or neither). I give up. I'll check it myself when I get a chance. My mistake. Trying to get accurate information out of angry people is usually an unwise decision.


    Okay. Research and probably asking around.

    This is me playing Crystalline advance on elite difficult.

    Before - http://imgur.com/a/FQULx#0
    After - http://imgur.com/a/FQULx#1

    You can use that information on the upper left.

    Yesterday I was doing roughly 800 specialization points at the end plus the rest I got. The number given is definitely not x2.9.
  • coulomb2coulomb2 Member Posts: 40 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    bareel wrote: »
    In that case it is most likely that it depends on the particular ship destroyed. Kazon might not have been buffed but Hirogen were for example.

    You are correct that that would allow for both to be right. But I seriously doubt that it is. Here is my reasoning.

    So far, all of the evidence over all 60 levels seems to point to critters drawing on a level-based master table for skill points. Actually, it even possibly seems rank based, since I have yet to see the numbers change from level to level until you actually increase to the next rank. For example:

    Level 1-10 frigate is worth X Skill Points.
    Level 1-10 cruiser is worth Y Skill Points.
    ..etc

    While it is possible (even likely) individual critter types can be assigned a multiplier, I've only ever seen evidence of it being either set to 0 or 1 (i.e. something that could also be explained by just having a "give no Skill Points" flag too).

    The reason I suspect this is that I have never seen different critters of the same "rank" give different amounts of Skill Points. Not even once. Either they always seem to give the normal amount, or nothing at all. (I'm ignoring the less you get when it is damaged by an NPC).

    It seems most likely that that master table would be extended into the 50-60 range, which is consistent with what I see the critters giving me in DR. I suppose that critters could be using the level 50 table and, assuming that they even exist, the modifiers were what was adjusted to give the skill values for kills post 50. But geez ... that seems unlikely because it seems like a lot more work to do it that way than continue to use the master table model.

    And so if they wanted to up critter kill XP, it strikes me as significantly more likely they'd modify the master table than try to change every single critter modifier (assuming, again, such a thing even exists).

    I'm not saying it's impossible, it just strikes me as unlikely. Which means the chance that they'd (for the first time) set it up so that critters of the same rank give different XP strikes me as unlikely. Again, not impossible, but unlikely.
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