wrong. he simply ignored the important numbers: exp for enemy kills and doffing. These have been atomicnerfed on top of an already very slow pace.
Note also that next week we will get a x2 buff on Delta patrol missions. This will perfectly offset the x2 nerf.
Meaning we are meant to play those instead of stf which pay materials. i.e. buy more packs.
^^ Thanks for saying! You prove my point exactly, namely that you can't pull a fast one on Trekkies! All nerfs since DR have been discovered and extensively documented within a day. I don't understand why they even try with the endless subterfuge.
I am perfectly fine with playing the way I want even if it means it is 30x slower. All I see here is you want to play the way you want and that has to be the fasted way possible.
Not at all, I'm simply looking for a reasonable approach that scales across the game. I am also suggesting there is a false equivalent being promoted here in Geko's argument.
One cannot quote the most efficient place in the entire game and suggest character progression is OK based on those numbers. XP does not scale evenly across the game, not even close.
The main guy at Cryptic just pinned the character progression of everyone to the most efficient location to XP - basically 3-4 patrol maps in the entire galaxy specific to replaying space combat - and doesn't seem to understand the frustration of the player base. That's very strange.
50 SSPs at 154,800 = 7,740,000 XP needed to complete a character.
At the most efficient location in the entire game to XP, Geko is claiming a player will get 2730 XP for doing the patrol, and in my experience I get an additional ~3750 XP on average in testing, roughly 6500 XP.
That makes the most efficient grind in the game doing a Delta Quadrant patrol around 1200 times. It takes my MK XIV VR kit level 60+8 Engineer in a Vesta about 9 minutes to finish the patrol. That represents 180 hours of straight redundant patrol mission.
But if you do ANYTHING else, it is going to take significantly longer - as much as 30x as long doing queue and battlezone content, for example. Geko's making his argument based on the best case XP pointing how this is great for players with the playstyle habits of Captain Redundant, but for the 99% of actual STO players who want to XP at a reasonable rate of progress, that's just silly.
I don't think anyone cares if the XP cost after level 60 is extremely high, I know I don't care. The challenge is, getting to 60 and being able to complete Advanced queues to earn the materials necessary to advance a character. The progression strategy for characters is the core issue, right now it is a mess for all who don't want to grind the same 3-4 patrol maps repeatedly, endlessly, because there is no chance a casual player will ever make level 60 doing all the other content options - almost all of which are content areas a player needs to play in order to get better gear.
I am the same, sat here watching forums I care little if I get banned for saying that Gecko is a stuck up ignorant little ****ing ****, but he has a major part in ****ing up a great MMO.
I'm currently buying a few games on Steam, my intention this pay day was to buy the Intel pack.
Nice job Gecko you colossal moron.
I don't think personal insults help to be honest, its certainly not going to make Gecko feel any warmer towards those who are asking him to reverse these string of bizarre decisions.
One of the reasons Dev's stopped posting on the forum was because of personal insults, and I really don't think there is any need for it, and will most likely result in the devs withdrawing from the forums and stop communicating (again) - which doesn't help anybody.
I am the same, sat here watching forums I care little if I get banned for saying that Gecko is a stuck up ignorant little ****ing ****, but he has a major part in ****ing up a great MMO.
I'm currently buying a few games on Steam, my intention this pay day was to buy the Intel pack.
Nice job Gecko you colossal moron.
Let's be clear here: I have no love for the man. But let's not give the mods a reason to close this thread, k?
I don't think personal insults help to be honest, its certainly not going to make Gecko feel any warmer towards those who are asking him to reverse these string of bizarre decisions.
One of the reasons Dev's stopped posting on the forum was because of personal insults, and I really don't think there is any need for it, and will most likely result in the devs withdrawing from the forums and stop communicating (again) - which doesn't help anybody.
Being nice and polite to them is not helping, been on nerf after the other even after long well wrote out detailed posts.
The guys a cretin and deserves all he gets.
PROUD TO PLAY THIS GAME MINUS TO GIVING ANY INCOME TO CRYPTIC
So basically, they massively slowed down XP progression from everything but doing Episodes?
This really feels like Railroading players to play the game a certain way, which is double frustrating since XP rewards from episodes go down significantly if you replay them (I did "surface tension" yesterday on my alt, got over 12k xp, rerunning it now would only award me 1973 XP).
So, everyone who already played most Episodes pre DR (IE: Most players) gets really screwed, as do those who rely on doffing to level their alts.
I can understand the Devs wanting to dissuade people from standing in one place and shooting stuff all day as it's not healthy for a game if this is the most effective way to make progress (It's really boring, keeps people away from STFs and the actually "multiplayer" part and will drive players who prefer to do other stuff away in the long run), but if you block one road, you need to open another.
What about battle/adventure zones? Save for Kobali prime, they still give horrible XP rewards. Or foundry missions? Or best, add a juicy XP reward for completing STFs, Q knows we need to direct more people to run these again.
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I don't think anyone cares if the XP cost after level 60 is extremely high, I know I don't care. The challenge is, getting to 60 and being able to complete Advanced queues to earn the materials necessary to advance a character. The progression strategy for characters is the core issue, right now it is a mess for all who don't want to grind the same 3-4 patrol maps repeatedly, endlessly, because there is no chance a casual player will ever make level 60 doing all the other content options - almost all of which are content areas a player needs to play in order to get better gear.
Well, I did... because L60 is essentially just the beginning of the epic Specialisation grind which actually yields useful abilities, unlike L50-60 progression.
Interesting to read about the DOff XP "changes"... that explains last night's non existent progress. I guess the ability to gain 2 levels per week by DOffing was OP, right? Yet reading this thread, it seems that the number of ways to complete the spec tree is waaay down.
Meh. I was happy with taking 3 months to max out the spec tree by DOffing, one-off episodes and STFs... but 6 months of playing the *same* patrol mission OVER AND OVER again is beyond my tolerance threshold. I am forced to wonder if there is some narcissistic element at work which means that the current Dev team can't abide players doing anything other than their latest content. The current approach would be counterintuitive... surely as long as players are logging in and spending time in game, it doesn't matter which path to progression they take?
The devs most of all. If this game continues to hemorrhage players then they'll be out of a job. Just look at how poorly DR player numbers peaked compared to LoR, and how quickly they have fallen off.
Cryptic seriously need a big change of plan and fast. The game can't continue with this incompetent system of development including endless nerfs, bugs, broken promises, barefaced lies, and rude dismissals of the playerbase.
[...]If I had a tinfoil hat within reach, I'd slip it on long enough point out that they've gone to great lengths to nerf what they perceive as "easy" ways to level up.[...]
Who told you that? That was supposed to be a secret!
Of course it was a kick in the teeth of that level 44 bonus xp zone, which paid out rather generous xp.
The devs most of all. If this game continues to hemorrhage players then they'll be out of a job. Just look at how poorly DR player numbers peaked compared to LoR, and how quickly they have fallen off.
Cryptic seriously need a big change of plan and fast. The game can't continue with this incompetent system of development including endless nerfs, bugs, broken promises, barefaced lies, and rude dismissals of the playerbase.
Yeah, sod them, how they can defend this disgusting mess, is beyond me.
PROUD TO PLAY THIS GAME MINUS TO GIVING ANY INCOME TO CRYPTIC
It's probably been pointed out by folks a lot smarter than me, but I'm kind of bored and sitting here looking at it - so I wanted to add the following, redundant as it may be.
It's a wee bit difficult to be precise since we're not given precise numbers...we have ten block per level, so each block is 10%, eh?
Toon #2 (53): 50401 SP remaining @ ~43% to L54
Toon #3 (53): 57776 SP remaining @ ~36% to L54
Toon #4 (53): 69672 SP remaining @ ~22% to L54
Toon #5 (53): 83018 SP remaining @ ~8% to L54
Toon #6 (52): 4736 SP remaining @ ~94% to L53
Toon #7 (52): 5062 SP remaining @ ~93% to L53
Toon #8 (53): 87309 SP remaining @ ~4% to L54
Toon #9 (52): 38040 SP remaining @ ~53% to L53
Toon #10 (52): 56975 SP remaining @ ~30% to L53
Toon #11 (51): 11300 SP remaining @ ~78% to L52
Now obviously again, those are rough percentages. However, because you provided the numbers you did - it's actually pretty easy to go back and actually calculate the percentages; but there's little need to do so because of the issue.
The amount you have listed for 54-55, is actually the amount for 53-54. Likewise, 53-54 is actually 52-53 and 52-53 is actually 51-52.
Each of the numbers in your list is off by a level apparently. I'm unable to test outside of the range that I listed above, but with those three levels each being off by one - it's not hard to hypothesize that the others are off by one level as well.
Toon #1 (60): 126024 SP remaining @ ~20.5% to next Spec Point
Giving us ~158k per Spec Point once we've reached level 60.
Okay then, with that having been said there's the matter of the numbers you have for completing a Normal Argala. 2730 is actually at a 105% reward scale, since Argala is only rewarding 2600 on Normal...on Advanced...on Elite. Yes, it's the same 2600 whether you do it on Normal, Advanced, or Elite. I can't remember what the pre-patch amount was - not quite sure I jotted that down for any of my testing.
But anyway, so what we were seeing with Argala was the Patrol reward being ~20% or less of the SP gained while on Normal. Now, that reward is ~33% of the SP gained on Normal. It's still ~20% or less on Elite.
So with some very rough math and some rough rounding...
But the requirement is ~287% of what it was before.
So where somebody might have done 10-11 Argala runs for a Spec Point previously, they'd now be looking at ~20 of them.
It's basically doubled the time it takes to earn a Spec Point.
Now keep in mind, that's if they're running an Argala...and one of the reasons so many people were running an Argala prior to the patch is because of just how bad all the other Patrols were for SP. They might be nifty for story, they might be fun to play, but they're outright TRIBBLE for somebody trying to grind out Spec Points. So with this change, all those Patrols are just that much worse. And yeah, that might look like an invitation to nerf Argala...but I'd just like to say shame on you if you were to go that route rather than looking at improving the other Patrols. This isn't some exploit like what folks were doing in Tau Dewa where the rewards were blatantly off and there was obviously an issue there which folks were exploiting. This is simply a case of having a Patrol where you actually can get in the most damage, spend less time chit-chatting and traveling, are not riddled with disables, and as long as you don't get Hirogen - aren't saturated with ships that might be just as tough but because of their class give garbage SP. It's a tedious as Hell Patrol to run over and over, but there's quite simply no other Patrol that's anywhere close...so it would be great if others could be brought up to snuff to give folks some variety in their play.
So maybe it's not a bug - maybe it was just an issue with the list...and maybe the critters were being discounted too much (or maybe there was some belief that the critters were giving more XP than they are)...
...but no, things haven't been kept nearly the same - it's basically a case of having doubled the requirement.
Now, lol - I don't want to win an internet, c'mon - it would be like fruitcake, I'd just end up regifting it to somebody else - but my math could be off. I don't keep detailed spreadsheets on this kind of thing, but I'll check with some folks that I know do to see if what I've got here is matching up with what they're seeing.
Was going to say something simmilar but you beet me to it i agree with you sir 100%
I am perfectly fine with playing the way I want even if it means it is 30x slower. All I see here is you want to play the way you want and that has to be the fasted way possible.
No, a balanced game design - which tried to appeal to the broadest range of players - would include a number of routes for progression. STO *used* to have this, with episodes, patrols, queues, PVP and DOffing all awarding comparable ammounts. Now, though, the focus seems to be on making players run the latest patrols and nothing else.
I laud your patience and such a laissez-faire attitude is in many ways laudable in an MMO. But it doesn't change the fact that shifting from a diverse range of options to a single super-optimal grind is, well, counter-intuitive. The thing that gets me is, this does not seem to increase profit. You can't buy your way around it. It pushes players towards a single area which may not be their preferred approach. That looks like a lose-lose from a business perspective. If anyone can see an alternative view, I would genuinely like to hear it.
When the Specialisation system was first announced, I actually lauded it on the grounds that it looked like it would reward players regardless of their preferred playstyle. Clearly I was shortsighted...
Not only his math misses an important point, but if you think his snarky remarks are fine, you're already past the denial stage.
It's not about being nice in return to another apology. This game sucks right now. Devs need to learn how to communicate properly in the face of the current state of the game.
This is not the time for jokes. Unless the devs consider this game a joke, then have at it, I guess.
So basically, they massively slowed down XP progression from everything but doing Episodes?
Feels like it.
I used to spend most of my time doing STF's (Borg mostly). Not because I needed the dith, ec or any other reward (I have more than I can reasonably spend), but because I simply enjoyed them.
Now I cant even do that, normal stf's are far to easy and advanced/elite are ridiculously hard. I leveled most of my alts through stf's (because like I say I like to spend my spare time battling the borg, and it was a fun way (for me) to level alts, now that is impossible too.
Cryptic has basically taken away everything that I enjoyed about the game - and at the moment I am just hanging around on the off chance that they will return to sanity some time soon.
If not, I guess I'll just be another one of those people who got swallowed up in Crytpics 'metrics'.
They seem to have forgotten the customers who stuck around during the Atari years, when Cryptic themselves said they didn't even enough funds to keep drink/food stocked at the office.
They have forgotten the people who stood by them and supported them financially - and now we have all be reduced to numbers in a 'metric' calculation - the tone and actions of the devs show clearly that they think of the playerbase with disdain (sometimes I think they actually hate us).
Perhaps they hate their jobs and they are taking it out on the players? - I don't know, there does not seem to be much logic (other than milking players to the hilt) in most of cryptics decisions (insulting players as they do so - is the reason why I wonder if they hate us).
Cryptic seriously need a big change of plan and fast. The game can't continue with this incompetent system of development including endless nerfs, bugs, broken promises, barefaced lies, and rude dismissals of the playerbase.
It's the 'barefaced lies' that bother me the most. Heretofore I chalked most off as incompetence, or laziness. But since they sent in the new Dev, yesterday, who, very deliberately, went out of his way to hide the patrol XP nerf, I now truly feel we're being outright lied to. And that's a new feeling for me.
Part of the irony is, that lying, in itself, means you know you're doing something wrong. I say, listen to that inner voice more intently, Cryptic!
Congradulations, you got your wish. Your math is completely wrong. You win one internet!
First, before and after the patch, the SP cost per level changed every level. That is, the costs were not static from 50-55 as you mentioned. Here are the actual numbers:
Increase in SP costs:
154,800/55,500=2.79 times more
Increase is SP rewarded from Argala:
2730/944=2.89
So this missions award slightly more proportionally to the increase in SP. Each mission will vary slightly because math.
All these numbers were just double checked in data and in game and appear accurate from our end.
Now I dont know if you are considering SP from critter kills. That is certainly going to vary greatly if you kill a lot of critters versus another with few critters (and the Delta Patrols vary greatly and each time you play many of them generate a random number of waves). But remember critters also received an increase in proportion to the new requirements.
To be clear, player progression should be the same now as it was before. In fact, Starship Mastery will be faster since critter ships award a lot more SP and Starship Master requirement did not go up.
The main reason this change was made was there were odd discrepancies at each level causing some rewards (critter kill, doff assignments, and missions) to be lower at higher levels. The change fixes that. I give you my word no one is trying to pull a fast one on the community. It is entirely possible there is a bug we are unaware of. If there is, we will find it and fix it.
I hope this clears things up.
Very Best Regards,
LLAP,
-Al Captain Geko Rivera
If those numbers are correct, it means the critters award the same XP as before. AKA, something broke.
See my previous post:
As I've seen people wondering how say NPC kills were affected by this 'update', I'll post this:
Before November 20 patch:
1 more level after attaining level 60... 54k XP
1 Argala run on normal, including the completion reward (900 xp)... approx. 5,100 XP for Kazon
After November 20 patch:
1 more level after attaining level 60... approx 150k XP
1 Argala run on normal, including the completion reward... approx. 7,600 for Kazon (haven't noticed how much the completion reward is currently on my last playthrough)
Level XP requirements almost tripled.
But not only doesn't doffing reward 3 times more XP to balance out the 3 times higher XP needs, NPC kills weren't even doubled either.
What you list for Argala is apparently the completion reward, and the way it is now scaled up accodring to you is close to what the entire run of Argala has gained after the patch. That means killing NPCs XP rewards weren't buffed (or only negligeably).
Please fix.
EDIT: Waves of Critters in Argala is fixed. For the Kazon that I chose as example:
2 cruisers
4 cruisers
2 carriers (that spawn raiders - small extra xp)
2 carriers (that spawn raiders - small extra xp)
4 cruisers
2 cruisers and Boss that isn't killed, only disabled (the boss also spawns raiders - small extra xp).
Mission variability cannot be a reason for overall number of XP gained from Argala only being boosted by around 50% (which apparently amounts to the mission completion reward XP buff).
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Frankly I don't know why anyone is applauding Geko here because my numbers don't match up. Before the patch I got 900 points per Argala run, as the end reward, I now get 2,600. My next spec point required about 159,100 spec points whereas before I needed 55,000. I got 5,100 skill points from kills during a normal run fighting the Malon.
So I made 7,700 points in that run, with my average before being around 3,200 or so depending on the enemy. That is 2.41 times more than before. The spec point increase as I see it, although I have rounded the basic numbers for the sakes of simplicity, come to 2.9 times more than before, so it doesn't add up, and judging from what I have it has to mean my kills are under performing.
Like I have said already though doff missions are still not giving the advertised experience, so that still needs looking into, it was a military project I was running that was the most noticeable.
Geko's post also doesn't address the issue that many feel the progression rate for levels isn't good enough as it is anyway. Even if this was supposed to be a completely zero-numbers game and it had worked like that the issue would still not have been addressed.
Edit: I just worked out that Geko is using veteran reward numbers, that is probably not helping.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
I mean where to start with this one. I could be mean, I could be nice but either way nothing really works. So to be cold and logical most likely would be best. It honestly looks like they want people to leave STO. Think about it. For a normal player that just gets on and does like 1 mission before bed or when they wake up then goes off to work, school, or deal with family issues they will never get any where in this game. No matter the fleet or friends helping them they will not progress. Its only logical to think that they are being weeded out for some unknown reason. The queues used to be full of casual players who where just looking to have fun and goof off with their latest ship. I would imagine their are a few left but not a lot. I know in our own fleet a lot of them have left for other more fun and rewarding games from what I was told. So why make this game lose players?
Telling us they are "fix" the reward system while pretty much leaving it the same as it was. What are the thoughts on that. Surely they do not think a long explanation and telling us they are pushing up rewards but in such a way to make the level curve the same is helpful to us. As it is most people have hit the delete key on a lot of the Alts they had and a lot of them really enjoyed switching out for different styles of play and view points on the same story line. But a lot of that has ended. further pulling down the money and the time people spend on this game. You would think they would see that DR is killing the game but do very little to pump life back into it.
They are overly worried about pushing out new content and new ships so quickly that it is mostly unfinished or the lose ends they don't tie up bites them in the back side in the form of Bugs, glitches. and random errors that just seem to walk up and smack us all in the face. It's no wonder with every notes like this that the Dev's post people get really honked off. When will something work the way it is suppose to? Honestly I don't know nor do I pretend to have the answers to said issues.
For the long time players it feels more like some sort of odd punishment at times. You just bought this and it works great....NERF......ok.... You just did this STORY LINE mission for XP and it has been in the game that way for over a year LIVE NERF.. not even a sneaky one on that one. We raised the level cap YAY... now take months getting some where if your lucky.....and the cycle of NERF...BUFF... NERF... on DR has been interesting to watch.
I could go on and on and on but most of you know this and could add much more to it. But honestly people are leaving because of things that take place. The game is becoming slightly unplayable if their is not an event going. I miss the old days before DR where you could que up for a Borg run have some fun and get a reward that was worth your time. Now days you can't really get any one to que up for any thing. Its easier to do story missions from 3 years ago over and over then to deal with a mob of 6 ships with over a million hp to get a reward you would get when you were a Lt. in the start of STO before DR. Balance is important and Cryptic has fallen off that rope a long while back.
My hope is that someone at Cryptic who has over site into games see's this and tells Geko to stop pushing out the TRIBBLE. Hold up all other content. Go through the game one bug/error at a time and Fix this once and for all. Restore it to how it should have been before DR and pray people and sites start saying STO is good to play again. People need to come back to get this game going and I have heard no one I know around here going O lets get on STO it was so fun last time I played. I hear omg I busted my butt for a week and didn't get any where I am going back to WOW. That's what I hear.
I've been keeping a log of XP rewards for a while, trying to identify the most efficient ways to level alts without sacrificing any enjoyment. Here are the numbers I had before compared to the numbers I got today...
Pre-patch:
Argala - Normal - Solo - lvl 60 - Kazon ships - 4331 Specialization Points per run
Post-patch:
Argala - Normal - Solo - lvl 60 - Kazon Ships - 7695 Specialization Points per run
The end rewards was indeed increased from ~900 to ~2900, as Geko stated. However, specialization points received for critter kills were not increased to the same scale. If everything stated in the OP was correct, one should receive ~12,993 per run. Whether it was intentional or not, XP gain was nerfed overall.
This may end up being moot, because I have no idea if the emergency server maintenance that just kicked me out of the game is to fix the issue will critter kill and or DOff XP (I am in 100% agreement with the advice that Cryptic needs to seriously improve their communications), but I did some decent preliminary ship kill values.
Oddly, if anything I'm getting worse results that you are. I see virtually no evidence that the ship XP improved at all, whereas your results support it.
Cruisers were consistently worth around 215 Skill Points each (and this was across several factions), and Battleships were consistently 280 Skill Points (I must be having a serious memory lapse concerning what they were before; nevertheless, that is consistent with absolutely no change).
What is puzzling to me is that your data show a skill point increase of 3364. But if ship values are the same (as my data seem to indicate), the increase should have only been around 1888 (the boost to the mission reward alone).
Basically, pre-patch your kill XP from the stated run is 3387. Post patch it was 4863, or about 43% higher. That's well below the 190% boost it needs to be, but it is an increase.
I must be missing something... I don't do Argala much - are the number of waves very random? It's possible the apparent difference is caused by cruiser/frigate differences. Three frigates together is only about 60% what a 1 cruiser spawn is worth, so a frigate heavy run versus a cruiser heavy run *could* account for this, but I don't know if that's a possibility for that mission.
My DOff numbers were inconclusive; they seemed higher than normal (and a gained about a bar from them - which is close to what I was getting pre-patch), but I chose poorly in terms of the character I was using - he had a lot of Delta missions completed and this run had a lot of long duration missions complete. I really needed to see what one of my much more standardized DOffers was producing.
Still, I'm hoping the emergency maintenance fixes this and renders this bug moot. I am very eager to get out of here, virtually speaking. I'd read this forum is a toxic wasteland, but I thought the reports were exaggerated. They weren't. I've participated in many forums, and this is the most vile, reprehensible one I've ever experienced. And that's counting the one where the moderator was a complete sociopath... Geez.
i agree with most of what is being said about the progression nerf its really its seems odd that a company that is focused on squeezing every last penny out of people with make it suck a boring grind to lvl up your toons .
i was only thinking the other day beacuse of the grind to lvl up your toon now that ill focus on just 1 toon (which incenintly save me alot as i wont be aiming at getting any new ships released for my alts as the grind to lvl them up to get the best out of the new ships will be to tedious that it would take any enjoyment out of playing the game0
for example i just did about 6 of the carrdasian story line to get the set and got abot 5% progression per eposide and i was doing them for the first time on my alt (lvl 52) after spending all that time doing a major story line quest sequence and only progressed to the next lvl by 30% there has to be something wrong here .
anyway if the fun goes out of a game and it bocome a grind then theres plenty of other games to keep me happy eve is always fun to play
can we just have a stupidly high amount of XP from the missions in the gap between levels 50 - 60... then return it to it's current 2k reward for repeats.
Sure, there are some people who are very abrasive with their complaints--but you're ignoring a lot of posters who have well-reasoned complaints and are capable of posting them without resorting to personal attacks.
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Yesterday I was doing roughly 800 specialization points at the end plus the rest I got. The number given is definitely not x2.9.
Got it. The total gained was 2275. That's about a factor 2.8 increase over 800.
But that's consistent with a mission where most of the reward is the mission end reward. I can buy that given that every time I've done the Crystalline Entity mission the team pops a few Tholian ships and then focuses on the Entity itself - in other words there is barely any contribution from ship or critter kills. Without knowing the actual critter kill values, I can't determine if they remained static, went down, or went up.
That said, a team environment (like any STF) makes determining anything about critter kill xp very difficult. As I said before, all I can really determine is that it is consistent with the mission reward at the end being increased by a multiplier between around 2.5 and 2.9.
What is puzzling to me is that your data show a skill point increase of 3364. But if ship values are the same (as my data seem to indicate), the increase should have only been around 1888 (the boost to the mission reward alone).
Basically, pre-patch your kill XP from the stated run is 3387. Post patch it was 4863, or about 43% higher. That's well below the 190% boost it needs to be, but it is an increase.
The critters definitely got a XP boost, but only a relatively small one. Unfortunately, I never documented the XP per ship before the patch. I don't know how much exactly they gained. I do know there's no randomness to the spawns. I got the same result every time I'd run the mission vs Kazon. Also, today's patch was supposed to be an account server patch, in which case, I don't think they'll be making any changes to the game itself. Hopefully, they surprise me.
Sure, there are some people who are very abrasive with their complaints--but you're ignoring a lot of posters who have well-reasoned complaints and are capable of posting them without resorting to personal attacks.
Ignoring is not quite the right word. I have noticed them, and get meaningful things out of their posts. Your review of DR was one of them. Very insightful; I certainly agreed with more of your points than I disagreed with. And I agree that the reasoned complaints should be taken very seriously (and they don't appear to be).
But the ratio of bile and vitrol to reason is literally the highest I have ever seen. It makes finding the signal in the noise more difficult than any other forum I've participated it.
Comments
^^ Thanks for saying! You prove my point exactly, namely that you can't pull a fast one on Trekkies! All nerfs since DR have been discovered and extensively documented within a day. I don't understand why they even try with the endless subterfuge.
Not at all, I'm simply looking for a reasonable approach that scales across the game. I am also suggesting there is a false equivalent being promoted here in Geko's argument.
One cannot quote the most efficient place in the entire game and suggest character progression is OK based on those numbers. XP does not scale evenly across the game, not even close.
The main guy at Cryptic just pinned the character progression of everyone to the most efficient location to XP - basically 3-4 patrol maps in the entire galaxy specific to replaying space combat - and doesn't seem to understand the frustration of the player base. That's very strange.
50 SSPs at 154,800 = 7,740,000 XP needed to complete a character.
At the most efficient location in the entire game to XP, Geko is claiming a player will get 2730 XP for doing the patrol, and in my experience I get an additional ~3750 XP on average in testing, roughly 6500 XP.
That makes the most efficient grind in the game doing a Delta Quadrant patrol around 1200 times. It takes my MK XIV VR kit level 60+8 Engineer in a Vesta about 9 minutes to finish the patrol. That represents 180 hours of straight redundant patrol mission.
But if you do ANYTHING else, it is going to take significantly longer - as much as 30x as long doing queue and battlezone content, for example. Geko's making his argument based on the best case XP pointing how this is great for players with the playstyle habits of Captain Redundant, but for the 99% of actual STO players who want to XP at a reasonable rate of progress, that's just silly.
I don't think anyone cares if the XP cost after level 60 is extremely high, I know I don't care. The challenge is, getting to 60 and being able to complete Advanced queues to earn the materials necessary to advance a character. The progression strategy for characters is the core issue, right now it is a mess for all who don't want to grind the same 3-4 patrol maps repeatedly, endlessly, because there is no chance a casual player will ever make level 60 doing all the other content options - almost all of which are content areas a player needs to play in order to get better gear.
Rules of Acquisition at Priority One
I don't think personal insults help to be honest, its certainly not going to make Gecko feel any warmer towards those who are asking him to reverse these string of bizarre decisions.
One of the reasons Dev's stopped posting on the forum was because of personal insults, and I really don't think there is any need for it, and will most likely result in the devs withdrawing from the forums and stop communicating (again) - which doesn't help anybody.
Let's be clear here: I have no love for the man. But let's not give the mods a reason to close this thread, k?
Being nice and polite to them is not helping, been on nerf after the other even after long well wrote out detailed posts.
The guys a cretin and deserves all he gets.
This really feels like Railroading players to play the game a certain way, which is double frustrating since XP rewards from episodes go down significantly if you replay them (I did "surface tension" yesterday on my alt, got over 12k xp, rerunning it now would only award me 1973 XP).
So, everyone who already played most Episodes pre DR (IE: Most players) gets really screwed, as do those who rely on doffing to level their alts.
I can understand the Devs wanting to dissuade people from standing in one place and shooting stuff all day as it's not healthy for a game if this is the most effective way to make progress (It's really boring, keeps people away from STFs and the actually "multiplayer" part and will drive players who prefer to do other stuff away in the long run), but if you block one road, you need to open another.
What about battle/adventure zones? Save for Kobali prime, they still give horrible XP rewards. Or foundry missions? Or best, add a juicy XP reward for completing STFs, Q knows we need to direct more people to run these again.
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Well, I did... because L60 is essentially just the beginning of the epic Specialisation grind which actually yields useful abilities, unlike L50-60 progression.
Interesting to read about the DOff XP "changes"... that explains last night's non existent progress. I guess the ability to gain 2 levels per week by DOffing was OP, right? Yet reading this thread, it seems that the number of ways to complete the spec tree is waaay down.
Meh. I was happy with taking 3 months to max out the spec tree by DOffing, one-off episodes and STFs... but 6 months of playing the *same* patrol mission OVER AND OVER again is beyond my tolerance threshold. I am forced to wonder if there is some narcissistic element at work which means that the current Dev team can't abide players doing anything other than their latest content. The current approach would be counterintuitive... surely as long as players are logging in and spending time in game, it doesn't matter which path to progression they take?
Then Cryptic can hire someone competent to begin to fix his mess.
The devs most of all. If this game continues to hemorrhage players then they'll be out of a job. Just look at how poorly DR player numbers peaked compared to LoR, and how quickly they have fallen off.
Cryptic seriously need a big change of plan and fast. The game can't continue with this incompetent system of development including endless nerfs, bugs, broken promises, barefaced lies, and rude dismissals of the playerbase.
Who told you that? That was supposed to be a secret!
Of course it was a kick in the teeth of that level 44 bonus xp zone, which paid out rather generous xp.
Yeah, sod them, how they can defend this disgusting mess, is beyond me.
Was going to say something simmilar but you beet me to it i agree with you sir 100%
No, a balanced game design - which tried to appeal to the broadest range of players - would include a number of routes for progression. STO *used* to have this, with episodes, patrols, queues, PVP and DOffing all awarding comparable ammounts. Now, though, the focus seems to be on making players run the latest patrols and nothing else.
I laud your patience and such a laissez-faire attitude is in many ways laudable in an MMO. But it doesn't change the fact that shifting from a diverse range of options to a single super-optimal grind is, well, counter-intuitive. The thing that gets me is, this does not seem to increase profit. You can't buy your way around it. It pushes players towards a single area which may not be their preferred approach. That looks like a lose-lose from a business perspective. If anyone can see an alternative view, I would genuinely like to hear it.
When the Specialisation system was first announced, I actually lauded it on the grounds that it looked like it would reward players regardless of their preferred playstyle. Clearly I was shortsighted...
Not only his math misses an important point, but if you think his snarky remarks are fine, you're already past the denial stage.
It's not about being nice in return to another apology. This game sucks right now. Devs need to learn how to communicate properly in the face of the current state of the game.
This is not the time for jokes. Unless the devs consider this game a joke, then have at it, I guess.
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Feels like it.
I used to spend most of my time doing STF's (Borg mostly). Not because I needed the dith, ec or any other reward (I have more than I can reasonably spend), but because I simply enjoyed them.
Now I cant even do that, normal stf's are far to easy and advanced/elite are ridiculously hard. I leveled most of my alts through stf's (because like I say I like to spend my spare time battling the borg, and it was a fun way (for me) to level alts, now that is impossible too.
Cryptic has basically taken away everything that I enjoyed about the game - and at the moment I am just hanging around on the off chance that they will return to sanity some time soon.
If not, I guess I'll just be another one of those people who got swallowed up in Crytpics 'metrics'.
They seem to have forgotten the customers who stuck around during the Atari years, when Cryptic themselves said they didn't even enough funds to keep drink/food stocked at the office.
They have forgotten the people who stood by them and supported them financially - and now we have all be reduced to numbers in a 'metric' calculation - the tone and actions of the devs show clearly that they think of the playerbase with disdain (sometimes I think they actually hate us).
Perhaps they hate their jobs and they are taking it out on the players? - I don't know, there does not seem to be much logic (other than milking players to the hilt) in most of cryptics decisions (insulting players as they do so - is the reason why I wonder if they hate us).
It's the 'barefaced lies' that bother me the most.
Part of the irony is, that lying, in itself, means you know you're doing something wrong. I say, listen to that inner voice more intently, Cryptic!
If those numbers are correct, it means the critters award the same XP as before. AKA, something broke.
See my previous post:
What you list for Argala is apparently the completion reward, and the way it is now scaled up accodring to you is close to what the entire run of Argala has gained after the patch. That means killing NPCs XP rewards weren't buffed (or only negligeably).
Please fix.
EDIT: Waves of Critters in Argala is fixed. For the Kazon that I chose as example:
2 cruisers
4 cruisers
2 carriers (that spawn raiders - small extra xp)
2 carriers (that spawn raiders - small extra xp)
4 cruisers
2 cruisers and Boss that isn't killed, only disabled (the boss also spawns raiders - small extra xp).
Mission variability cannot be a reason for overall number of XP gained from Argala only being boosted by around 50% (which apparently amounts to the mission completion reward XP buff).
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=20811681&posted=1#post20811681
Read my second post.
On the STO forums? Yes, they all are that uptight.
So I made 7,700 points in that run, with my average before being around 3,200 or so depending on the enemy. That is 2.41 times more than before. The spec point increase as I see it, although I have rounded the basic numbers for the sakes of simplicity, come to 2.9 times more than before, so it doesn't add up, and judging from what I have it has to mean my kills are under performing.
Like I have said already though doff missions are still not giving the advertised experience, so that still needs looking into, it was a military project I was running that was the most noticeable.
Geko's post also doesn't address the issue that many feel the progression rate for levels isn't good enough as it is anyway. Even if this was supposed to be a completely zero-numbers game and it had worked like that the issue would still not have been addressed.
Edit: I just worked out that Geko is using veteran reward numbers, that is probably not helping.
Telling us they are "fix" the reward system while pretty much leaving it the same as it was. What are the thoughts on that. Surely they do not think a long explanation and telling us they are pushing up rewards but in such a way to make the level curve the same is helpful to us. As it is most people have hit the delete key on a lot of the Alts they had and a lot of them really enjoyed switching out for different styles of play and view points on the same story line. But a lot of that has ended. further pulling down the money and the time people spend on this game. You would think they would see that DR is killing the game but do very little to pump life back into it.
They are overly worried about pushing out new content and new ships so quickly that it is mostly unfinished or the lose ends they don't tie up bites them in the back side in the form of Bugs, glitches. and random errors that just seem to walk up and smack us all in the face. It's no wonder with every notes like this that the Dev's post people get really honked off. When will something work the way it is suppose to? Honestly I don't know nor do I pretend to have the answers to said issues.
For the long time players it feels more like some sort of odd punishment at times. You just bought this and it works great....NERF......ok.... You just did this STORY LINE mission for XP and it has been in the game that way for over a year LIVE NERF.. not even a sneaky one on that one. We raised the level cap YAY... now take months getting some where if your lucky.....and the cycle of NERF...BUFF... NERF... on DR has been interesting to watch.
I could go on and on and on but most of you know this and could add much more to it. But honestly people are leaving because of things that take place. The game is becoming slightly unplayable if their is not an event going. I miss the old days before DR where you could que up for a Borg run have some fun and get a reward that was worth your time. Now days you can't really get any one to que up for any thing. Its easier to do story missions from 3 years ago over and over then to deal with a mob of 6 ships with over a million hp to get a reward you would get when you were a Lt. in the start of STO before DR. Balance is important and Cryptic has fallen off that rope a long while back.
My hope is that someone at Cryptic who has over site into games see's this and tells Geko to stop pushing out the TRIBBLE. Hold up all other content. Go through the game one bug/error at a time and Fix this once and for all. Restore it to how it should have been before DR and pray people and sites start saying STO is good to play again. People need to come back to get this game going and I have heard no one I know around here going O lets get on STO it was so fun last time I played. I hear omg I busted my butt for a week and didn't get any where I am going back to WOW. That's what I hear.
Sorry about the length.
This may end up being moot, because I have no idea if the emergency server maintenance that just kicked me out of the game is to fix the issue will critter kill and or DOff XP (I am in 100% agreement with the advice that Cryptic needs to seriously improve their communications), but I did some decent preliminary ship kill values.
Oddly, if anything I'm getting worse results that you are. I see virtually no evidence that the ship XP improved at all, whereas your results support it.
Cruisers were consistently worth around 215 Skill Points each (and this was across several factions), and Battleships were consistently 280 Skill Points (I must be having a serious memory lapse concerning what they were before; nevertheless, that is consistent with absolutely no change).
What is puzzling to me is that your data show a skill point increase of 3364. But if ship values are the same (as my data seem to indicate), the increase should have only been around 1888 (the boost to the mission reward alone).
Basically, pre-patch your kill XP from the stated run is 3387. Post patch it was 4863, or about 43% higher. That's well below the 190% boost it needs to be, but it is an increase.
I must be missing something... I don't do Argala much - are the number of waves very random? It's possible the apparent difference is caused by cruiser/frigate differences. Three frigates together is only about 60% what a 1 cruiser spawn is worth, so a frigate heavy run versus a cruiser heavy run *could* account for this, but I don't know if that's a possibility for that mission.
My DOff numbers were inconclusive; they seemed higher than normal (and a gained about a bar from them - which is close to what I was getting pre-patch), but I chose poorly in terms of the character I was using - he had a lot of Delta missions completed and this run had a lot of long duration missions complete. I really needed to see what one of my much more standardized DOffers was producing.
Still, I'm hoping the emergency maintenance fixes this and renders this bug moot. I am very eager to get out of here, virtually speaking. I'd read this forum is a toxic wasteland, but I thought the reports were exaggerated. They weren't. I've participated in many forums, and this is the most vile, reprehensible one I've ever experienced. And that's counting the one where the moderator was a complete sociopath... Geez.
i was only thinking the other day beacuse of the grind to lvl up your toon now that ill focus on just 1 toon (which incenintly save me alot as i wont be aiming at getting any new ships released for my alts as the grind to lvl them up to get the best out of the new ships will be to tedious that it would take any enjoyment out of playing the game0
for example i just did about 6 of the carrdasian story line to get the set and got abot 5% progression per eposide and i was doing them for the first time on my alt (lvl 52) after spending all that time doing a major story line quest sequence and only progressed to the next lvl by 30% there has to be something wrong here .
anyway if the fun goes out of a game and it bocome a grind then theres plenty of other games to keep me happy eve is always fun to play
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Got it. The total gained was 2275. That's about a factor 2.8 increase over 800.
But that's consistent with a mission where most of the reward is the mission end reward. I can buy that given that every time I've done the Crystalline Entity mission the team pops a few Tholian ships and then focuses on the Entity itself - in other words there is barely any contribution from ship or critter kills. Without knowing the actual critter kill values, I can't determine if they remained static, went down, or went up.
That said, a team environment (like any STF) makes determining anything about critter kill xp very difficult. As I said before, all I can really determine is that it is consistent with the mission reward at the end being increased by a multiplier between around 2.5 and 2.9.
The critters definitely got a XP boost, but only a relatively small one. Unfortunately, I never documented the XP per ship before the patch. I don't know how much exactly they gained. I do know there's no randomness to the spawns. I got the same result every time I'd run the mission vs Kazon. Also, today's patch was supposed to be an account server patch, in which case, I don't think they'll be making any changes to the game itself. Hopefully, they surprise me.
Ignoring is not quite the right word. I have noticed them, and get meaningful things out of their posts. Your review of DR was one of them. Very insightful; I certainly agreed with more of your points than I disagreed with. And I agree that the reasoned complaints should be taken very seriously (and they don't appear to be).
But the ratio of bile and vitrol to reason is literally the highest I have ever seen. It makes finding the signal in the noise more difficult than any other forum I've participated it.