The unfortunate thing is that on the Internet you can't get into people's heads, so people have a tendency to assume the worst, and when you are in a PR crisis as Cryptic is, the leeway to be interpreted positively simply is not there. It is not what one intends to say that matters. It is what people perceive that is actually communicated.
From a customer relations standpoint the wisest thing is to save the humor for the good times unless engaging in self-deprecating humor, which is good pretty much all the time because it often demonstrates to the other party that you (generic "you") do not hold yourself up on a pedestal above anybody else.
So, even if meant playfully, right now is a situation where it should be "Just the facts, ma'am." If I were spearheading the PR effort at Cryptic, that is the advice I would be giving to all of the employees behind the scenes, when handling difficult situations like this.
As a nice contrast...tacofangs, who has no responsibilities at all over the functions where all the trouble is currently coming from can still have more leeway because what he does does not impact game functionality, and he also has a HELL of a lot of personal reputation capital that he has earned over time. Many others, unfortunately, are operating in the red as far as that is concerned and need to be concerned about how to improve that situation.
Just to be clear, this is not a flame...it is intended as a productive suggestion that I think would greatly help relations between the devs and the playerbase on both sides and might allow both to begin to regroup (assuming that things also get better in game).
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Now I dont know if you are considering SP from critter kills. That is certainly going to vary greatly if you kill a lot of critters versus another with few critters (and the Delta Patrols vary greatly and each time you play many of them generate a random number of waves). But remember critters also received an increase in proportion to the new requirements.
Of course he was considering skill points from kills as well, the much larger number he cited for an Argala run compared to the end reward you listed should have tipped you off. If old Argala normal gave 944 skill points like you say that means that roughly 75-80% of the experience was from said kills, not from the reward. Just glossing over it like you did is clearly skirting the issue.
So basically what you are saying is what that one dude told me about you guys would put this out originally as a super grind of skill points and then change it to where it'll be half a level less than before. So being its still a super grind meant to keep ppl busy until the next grind comes out without doing much work but its backfiring because of the fact that all the ques are pretty much dead as well as the pre-made que channels like the public stf channels out there heh.
I gotta give you props on getting that under powered intrepid out there that most of us are not able to purchase the pack because well we had bought most everything voyager or used a VA token on it so that being said I won't bother with it and from the posts seems like the sentiment is the same across the board.
It is a much more reasonable 120. I only occasionally bump up against the timer now.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
The kind of attitude they get here on the forums, I'm surprised they don't give it right back to us more often. I say bravo.
Thanks for responding Geko. I think my problem is more with the underlying issue through all these fixes which is the philosophy of slowing down the leveling so that simply playing story missions is no longer enough to actually progress. This is in direct conflict with the entire game up until now, and I think does not suit it.
Really, Geko, we've ALL been doing Argla endless amounts of time! For you to come here, blatantly stating Argala used to reward only 944 XP, I find that positively insulting.
So, that means it now takes 4,0867240867240867240867240867241 as long to complete 1 Specialization level, doing Argala:
Really, Geko, we've ALL been doing Argla endless amounts of time! For you to come here, blatantly stating Argala used to reward only 944 XP, I find that positively insulting.
So, that means it now takes 4,0867240867240867240867240867241 as much XP as before to complete 1 Specialization level, doing Argala:
Congradulations, you got your wish. Your math is completely wrong. You win one internet!
First, before and after the patch, the SP cost per level changed every level. That is, the costs were not static from 50-55 as you mentioned. Here are the actual numbers:
Was:
Very Best Regards,
LLAP,
-Al Captain Geko Rivera
That's how you talk to players. I redacted myself <....>. Just seen you was joking but after seeing your previous comments and ill well statements towards playersl. I don't know.
Seriously, 148,512 specialization experience to get 1 captain specialization. That's not cool one bit.
This is simply a NERF PERIOD. The Dev crew isn't taking responsiblity for TRIBBLE up their mechanics so bad any change creates more bugs and problems. Additionally, there is always a work around to every nerf that has been done.
This change gurantees I will not play any of the DR content.
The opening sentence was clearly a playful joke. Is everyone so uptight now that no dev can make a joke without it being taken out of context?
His point is valid in my opinion.
People are pretty mad right now, whether rightly or wrongly. People running on emotion and especially anger don't think rationally, and will more often than not take things out of context, which reinforces that anger.
The rest of Geko's post is to the point, and has the needed information. The joke, to me wasn't bad or out of line, but I am not in a rage about this issue.
I am pleased about the change, and the clarification. I was unduly affected by the reduced skill points prior to the patch, and was pretty unhappy about not getting the stated reward. Now, I am getting what I desire skill point wise from doff missions and critter kills. As far as the rise in the point to level ceiling, it really doesn't bother me.
This is not to say that I am a happy camper as far as Delta rising is concerned...Not. At. All. :mad:
It's just that this particular issue as been addressed for me, but I can see where others may be unhappy (not that I agree with them).
He meant the end reward for completing the mission, not the xp you get for killing things during the mission.
Smoke and mirrors then.
What is important is the end result. I don't need a lizard to do math wizardry trying to tell me everything is allright. It is not. XP still was nerfed.
You are right, before we got 944 SP for Argala on Normal, now we get 2730. That is ok. But the problem is that the SP from npc's didn't scale up accordingly.
Yesterday I ran 5 Normal Argala missions and I would get between 4500-5000 SP. Today after the patch I also ran those 5 missions and I got between 6000-7000 SP. Which is just a difference between 2730 today we get for Normal Argala and 944 we could get yesterday.
The conclusion is SP from NPC's DID NOT scale up.
Very much this. I think they rely to much on internal metrics and not enough on real world testing. The Devs need to take a ship to Argala, look at current Skill Points before. Run the mission. Look at change.
People are pretty mad right now, whether rightly or wrongly. People running on emotion and especially anger don't think rationally, and will more often than not take things out of context, which reinforces that anger.
The rest of Geko's post is to the point, and has the needed information. The joke, to me wasn't bad or out of line, but I am not in a rage about this issue.
By no means am I negating the fact that Geko posted detailed data. The fact that we now have that means that there's a hard baseline to compare against to see if stated values and actual values are actually in line. If they are not, there is a substantive basis to address the discrepancy from.
THAT part is very much a good thing and I do think Geko was right to do that much.
The problem is that some people are very much inclined--and understandably due to how much anger all of this has caused and the fact that it has been an ongoing pattern both individually and across the entire game--to discount all of the potential substance that could be written after such an abrasive opening potshot. And that is why I strongly, strongly advise people in a crisis to check that kind of thing at the door because the personal and brand capital simply is not there right now to accommodate it.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Really, Geko, we've ALL been doing Argla endless amounts of time! For you to come here, blatantly stating Argala used to reward only 944 XP, I find that positively insulting.
So, that means it now takes 4,0867240867240867240867240867241 as long to complete 1 Specialization level, doing Argala:
He meant when you finish the Argala mission and collect the marks you get 944 XP. If you have done that endless times you would know that. You get around 4000-5000xp by killing npcs plus 944 XP at the end. That is by yesterdays numbers. It's insulting that you are not aware what are you saying when postings these kind of posts. At least know the facts.
I'm confused here and need someone to help me understand something.
With the DR release, the skill point requirement to go from lvl 50 to lvl 60 was double of what was earned in the 50 previous levels. And it required 50K points to obtain each "specialization point" earned after lvl 60.
The amount of skill points, and specialization points was also reduced by approximately half.
People got irate and complained, understandably so.
Cryptic responds by reverting the points rewarded back to their old level, and tripled the amount of points required?
How is that an improvement? Is Cryptic trolling the player base, or punishing them for speaking out previously?
Very much this. I think they rely to much on internal metrics and not enough on real world testing. The Devs need to take a ship to Argala, look at current Skill Points before. Run the mission. Look at change.
I just did once, on Normal...
Got 7955 from the mission, including kills.
So I dunno who to believe now. Is this a nerf, a buff, a zero sum?
It FEELS like it's slower, as my bar didn't go up as much as it did prior to the patch after an Argala patrol.
Hey I just vaped you, and this is crazy;
But here's my frequency, so hail me maybe?
To help the discussion, could you please note the difficulty level you were playing that at (Normal/Advanced/Elite), and whether or not you were teamed or solo?
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
I don't know. I think snarky responses from Mr. Rivera are pretty awesome and should be used more often.
Stay the course, Geko! At least on the communication front.
I disagree. Pouring gasoline on a raging fire is generally not a good idea.
Clear and consistent communication is far better, than snarky and possibly inflammatory comments, especially from someone in his position.
Being frank is one thing and can be welcome. Being snarky and insulting is not acceptable (to me at least) when communicating to a customer, or potential customer. While a customer's demands may not be possible to meet, this should be communicated without sarcasm or under the table insults. Also remember that sometimes intent does not come across clearly in text, and what may be intended as a friendly joke, may not come across as such without the context of facial expression, body language or other social cues.
The current state of communication is much better than it was, and needs to keep coming.
Thank you nakedsnake. I was just trying to be playful.
My sincere appologies if this came off snarky.
I, for one, appreciate the humor, my reptilian overlord.
I suppose you should check out the Argala patrol again, though, given what others are saying. You don't mindlessly grind it day in, day out, so maybe those critter kills were adding up to more than you thought. That's definitely going to slow progression.
Myself, I never bothered with Argala outside of a quick stress test for new builds (rarely even actually completing the patrol), so I'd have never noticed the difference. Doffing is my main source of XP, and the progression from that actually felt a tiny bit faster today.
And Mastery has gotten even faster? Honestly, you might as well start giving them to us Mastered.
The kind of attitude they get here on the forums, I'm surprised they don't give it right back to us more often. I say bravo.
Thanks for responding Geko. I think my problem is more with the underlying issue through all these fixes which is the philosophy of slowing down the leveling so that simply playing story missions is no longer enough to actually progress. This is in direct conflict with the entire game up until now, and I think does not suit it.
Agreed. I like this progression, though, it felt way too fast earlier in the game. I think the pacing would be great for new characters. Existing level 50s, though, that already finished the whole story, are kinda stuck playing the same things over and over (or just waiting a day or two between missions if leveling by doffing, like me) to move onto the next story mission. That sucks. I can be happy with the progression rate and unhappy with the amount of content available to play.
To help the discussion, could you please note the difficulty level you were playing that at (Normal/Advanced/Elite), and whether or not you were teamed or solo?
Thank you nakedsnake. I was just trying to be playful.
My sincere appologies if this came off snarky.
And I mean it when I say thank you for coming out and saying so. I think that for people to see this may help you some.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
I disagree. Pouring gasoline on a raging fire is generally not a good idea.
The fire was burning anyway. And it showed absolutely no signs of ever stopping. It's an eternal fire. Like the fires of Chimera Mountain in Lycia. People routinely and shamelessly treat various people at Cryptic like dirt. They aren't going to stop. If they were, they would have done so a long time ago.
Clear and consistent communication is far better, than snarky and possibly inflammatory comments, especially from someone in his position.
I disagree. I am a fan of snark, and I am a fan of people willing to stand up for themselves, particularly in the face of what they believe to be incorrect information.
Being frank is one thing and can be welcome. Being snarky and insulting is not acceptable (to me at least) when communicating to a customer, or potential customer. While a customer's demands may not be possible to meet, this should be communicated without sarcasm or under the table insults. Also remember that sometimes intent does not come across clearly in text, and what may be intended as a friendly joke, may not come across as such without the context of facial expression, body language or other social cues.
Fair enough. I simply believe that Mr. Rivera is obeying a modified version of the golden rule. Treat people on the forums as they have proven to treat you.
Regardless of the actual data (I haven't played any missions since the patch, so I don't have a dog in this fight), I've always respected him for his ability to dish it back out to the players as much as they dish it out to him. As previously pointed out, compared to some of the comments I've seen thrown in his direction?
How he responded was very tame and mild in comparison.
When he starts invoking Godwin's Law and saying that he hopes various posters on the forums get fired from their jobs, then maybe I'll say his form of snark is over the line. But he hasn't, so I don't.
The current state of communication is much better than it was, and needs to keep coming.
Agreed.
EDIT: Also, he did apologize, which is more than I expected. So there is that. He's not completely classless.
If the math is correct I am curious as to why the description for level 60 says that 1,498,620 SP need to be gained to obtain level 60. If the math is correct than the description is wrong. However if the variable is both the counter and used in the description I would say there is quite a problem.
Geko's math would make sense if the description didn't say that.
I don't know. I think snarky responses from Mr. Rivera are pretty awesome and should be used more often.
Stay the course, Geko! At least on the communication front.
+1
Yep take this advice, your definitely on the right track with everything.
People aren't really upset and having their time & money devalued, and we all really really enjoy spending hours upon hours doing the same thing over and over again to obtain a goal just have the goal post moved again and again, really it's great! All this anger, all these people leaving ahh it's our way of saying "Thank You" keep up the good work.
No need for [Sarcasm][/Sarcasm] yes I'm so pissed I'm now making emotional responses, and I know they rarely help. But I stand by everything I've said.
Comments
The unfortunate thing is that on the Internet you can't get into people's heads, so people have a tendency to assume the worst, and when you are in a PR crisis as Cryptic is, the leeway to be interpreted positively simply is not there. It is not what one intends to say that matters. It is what people perceive that is actually communicated.
From a customer relations standpoint the wisest thing is to save the humor for the good times unless engaging in self-deprecating humor, which is good pretty much all the time because it often demonstrates to the other party that you (generic "you") do not hold yourself up on a pedestal above anybody else.
So, even if meant playfully, right now is a situation where it should be "Just the facts, ma'am." If I were spearheading the PR effort at Cryptic, that is the advice I would be giving to all of the employees behind the scenes, when handling difficult situations like this.
As a nice contrast...tacofangs, who has no responsibilities at all over the functions where all the trouble is currently coming from can still have more leeway because what he does does not impact game functionality, and he also has a HELL of a lot of personal reputation capital that he has earned over time. Many others, unfortunately, are operating in the red as far as that is concerned and need to be concerned about how to improve that situation.
Just to be clear, this is not a flame...it is intended as a productive suggestion that I think would greatly help relations between the devs and the playerbase on both sides and might allow both to begin to regroup (assuming that things also get better in game).
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Not now. Not coming from THIS particular Dev.
And what about the Doff SP? Was that also increased?
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
+1
/300 seconds, or is it less now?
I gotta give you props on getting that under powered intrepid out there that most of us are not able to purchase the pack because well we had bought most everything voyager or used a VA token on it so that being said I won't bother with it and from the posts seems like the sentiment is the same across the board.
It is a much more reasonable 120. I only occasionally bump up against the timer now.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Playful joke or not atleast the man came on and gave data to show. Lets hope it is a bug and they fix it.
Thanks for responding Geko. I think my problem is more with the underlying issue through all these fixes which is the philosophy of slowing down the leveling so that simply playing story missions is no longer enough to actually progress. This is in direct conflict with the entire game up until now, and I think does not suit it.
Argala Normal rewarded ca. 4,000 XP per round.
Really, Geko, we've ALL been doing Argla endless amounts of time! For you to come here, blatantly stating Argala used to reward only 944 XP, I find that positively insulting.
So, that means it now takes 4,0867240867240867240867240867241 as long to complete 1 Specialization level, doing Argala:
((155,800 / 55,500) = 2.7891) * ((4000 / 2730) = 1,4652)
I don't know. I think snarky responses from Mr. Rivera are pretty awesome and should be used more often.
Stay the course, Geko! At least on the communication front.
He meant the end reward for completing the mission, not the xp you get for killing things during the mission.
That's how you talk to players. I redacted myself <....>. Just seen you was joking but after seeing your previous comments and ill well statements towards playersl. I don't know.
Seriously, 148,512 specialization experience to get 1 captain specialization. That's not cool one bit.
This is simply a NERF PERIOD. The Dev crew isn't taking responsiblity for TRIBBLE up their mechanics so bad any change creates more bugs and problems. Additionally, there is always a work around to every nerf that has been done.
This change gurantees I will not play any of the DR content.
His point is valid in my opinion.
People are pretty mad right now, whether rightly or wrongly. People running on emotion and especially anger don't think rationally, and will more often than not take things out of context, which reinforces that anger.
The rest of Geko's post is to the point, and has the needed information. The joke, to me wasn't bad or out of line, but I am not in a rage about this issue.
I am pleased about the change, and the clarification. I was unduly affected by the reduced skill points prior to the patch, and was pretty unhappy about not getting the stated reward. Now, I am getting what I desire skill point wise from doff missions and critter kills. As far as the rise in the point to level ceiling, it really doesn't bother me.
This is not to say that I am a happy camper as far as Delta rising is concerned...Not. At. All. :mad:
It's just that this particular issue as been addressed for me, but I can see where others may be unhappy (not that I agree with them).
Smoke and mirrors then.
What is important is the end result. I don't need a lizard to do math wizardry trying to tell me everything is allright. It is not. XP still was nerfed.
1.st try - lvl 58 - soloplay - xp totaly 5811 - reward was 2600 that is includet in the 5811
2.nd try - 1 lvl 58 - 1 lvl 60 - match on 58 ---reward 2729 - totaly 7643 xp
3rd try - 2 lvl 60 1 lvl 58 match on 60 - reward 2730 - totaly 7643
4th try - 3 lvl 60 - reward 3591 totaly 9113
I didn't test more
Very much this. I think they rely to much on internal metrics and not enough on real world testing. The Devs need to take a ship to Argala, look at current Skill Points before. Run the mission. Look at change.
By no means am I negating the fact that Geko posted detailed data. The fact that we now have that means that there's a hard baseline to compare against to see if stated values and actual values are actually in line. If they are not, there is a substantive basis to address the discrepancy from.
THAT part is very much a good thing and I do think Geko was right to do that much.
The problem is that some people are very much inclined--and understandably due to how much anger all of this has caused and the fact that it has been an ongoing pattern both individually and across the entire game--to discount all of the potential substance that could be written after such an abrasive opening potshot. And that is why I strongly, strongly advise people in a crisis to check that kind of thing at the door because the personal and brand capital simply is not there right now to accommodate it.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
http://i.imgur.com/9b2Nntt.jpg
He meant when you finish the Argala mission and collect the marks you get 944 XP. If you have done that endless times you would know that. You get around 4000-5000xp by killing npcs plus 944 XP at the end. That is by yesterdays numbers. It's insulting that you are not aware what are you saying when postings these kind of posts. At least know the facts.
https://youtube.com/user/MyBalkanGaming
With the DR release, the skill point requirement to go from lvl 50 to lvl 60 was double of what was earned in the 50 previous levels. And it required 50K points to obtain each "specialization point" earned after lvl 60.
The amount of skill points, and specialization points was also reduced by approximately half.
People got irate and complained, understandably so.
Cryptic responds by reverting the points rewarded back to their old level, and tripled the amount of points required?
How is that an improvement? Is Cryptic trolling the player base, or punishing them for speaking out previously?
I just did once, on Normal...
Got 7955 from the mission, including kills.
So I dunno who to believe now. Is this a nerf, a buff, a zero sum?
It FEELS like it's slower, as my bar didn't go up as much as it did prior to the patch after an Argala patrol.
But here's my frequency, so hail me maybe?
To help the discussion, could you please note the difficulty level you were playing that at (Normal/Advanced/Elite), and whether or not you were teamed or solo?
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
I disagree. Pouring gasoline on a raging fire is generally not a good idea.
Clear and consistent communication is far better, than snarky and possibly inflammatory comments, especially from someone in his position.
Being frank is one thing and can be welcome. Being snarky and insulting is not acceptable (to me at least) when communicating to a customer, or potential customer. While a customer's demands may not be possible to meet, this should be communicated without sarcasm or under the table insults. Also remember that sometimes intent does not come across clearly in text, and what may be intended as a friendly joke, may not come across as such without the context of facial expression, body language or other social cues.
The current state of communication is much better than it was, and needs to keep coming.
I, for one, appreciate the humor, my reptilian overlord.
I suppose you should check out the Argala patrol again, though, given what others are saying. You don't mindlessly grind it day in, day out, so maybe those critter kills were adding up to more than you thought. That's definitely going to slow progression.
Myself, I never bothered with Argala outside of a quick stress test for new builds (rarely even actually completing the patrol), so I'd have never noticed the difference. Doffing is my main source of XP, and the progression from that actually felt a tiny bit faster today.
And Mastery has gotten even faster? Honestly, you might as well start giving them to us Mastered.
-edit-
Agreed. I like this progression, though, it felt way too fast earlier in the game. I think the pacing would be great for new characters. Existing level 50s, though, that already finished the whole story, are kinda stuck playing the same things over and over (or just waiting a day or two between missions if leveling by doffing, like me) to move onto the next story mission. That sucks. I can be happy with the progression rate and unhappy with the amount of content available to play.
This was on normal
And I mean it when I say thank you for coming out and saying so. I think that for people to see this may help you some.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
The fire was burning anyway. And it showed absolutely no signs of ever stopping. It's an eternal fire. Like the fires of Chimera Mountain in Lycia. People routinely and shamelessly treat various people at Cryptic like dirt. They aren't going to stop. If they were, they would have done so a long time ago.
I disagree. I am a fan of snark, and I am a fan of people willing to stand up for themselves, particularly in the face of what they believe to be incorrect information.
Fair enough. I simply believe that Mr. Rivera is obeying a modified version of the golden rule. Treat people on the forums as they have proven to treat you.
Regardless of the actual data (I haven't played any missions since the patch, so I don't have a dog in this fight), I've always respected him for his ability to dish it back out to the players as much as they dish it out to him. As previously pointed out, compared to some of the comments I've seen thrown in his direction?
How he responded was very tame and mild in comparison.
When he starts invoking Godwin's Law and saying that he hopes various posters on the forums get fired from their jobs, then maybe I'll say his form of snark is over the line. But he hasn't, so I don't.
Agreed.
EDIT: Also, he did apologize, which is more than I expected. So there is that. He's not completely classless.
Geko's math would make sense if the description didn't say that.
+1
Yep take this advice, your definitely on the right track with everything.
People aren't really upset and having their time & money devalued, and we all really really enjoy spending hours upon hours doing the same thing over and over again to obtain a goal just have the goal post moved again and again, really it's great! All this anger, all these people leaving ahh it's our way of saying "Thank You" keep up the good work.
No need for [Sarcasm][/Sarcasm] yes I'm so pissed I'm now making emotional responses, and I know they rarely help. But I stand by everything I've said.
Would you recommend STO to a friend?