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    sheldonlcoopersheldonlcooper Member Posts: 4,042 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    That's awesome...go to Kickstarter...get some crowdfunding...and make a game that's just like that!

    But one doesn't go into an Apple Store and argue with them that you want a Samsung phone.

    Actually I don't have to. The numbers and thus the profits are on my side. That's why MMOs are moving away from intensive forced grouping. Maybe you should take your own advice?
    Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."

    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

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    virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Actually I don't have to. The numbers and thus the profits are on my side. That's why MMOs are moving away from intensive forced grouping. Maybe you should take your own advice?

    Why do I have to go seek funding for a game...when every direction I turn, all the games are like that? You're the one that wants to go online and play with himself...

    I mean, seriously, where are all these imaginary games you've mentioned that the genre is heading toward? I hit up various top ten lists for the past month, past six months, etc, etc, etc...and I'm just not seeing any games without group content.
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    sheldonlcoopersheldonlcooper Member Posts: 4,042 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Why do I have to go seek funding for a game...when every direction I turn, all the games are like that? You're the one that wants to go online and play with himself...

    I mean, seriously, where are all these imaginary games you've mentioned that the genre is heading toward? I hit up various top ten lists for the past month, past six months, etc, etc, etc...and I'm just not seeing any games without group content.

    Herself.

    I'm not saying there's no group content. I'm saying "moving away from forced." This is a subtle distinction. And a increasingly common forum gripe from old timey hardcore raiders.

    I would say that currently STO has no forced group content. If you define group as forced social interaction. Again, I love the grouping in STO as it is now. And I hope and expect to continue that in the new Elite pugs.
    Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."

    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

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    cryptiecopcryptiecop Member Posts: 239 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    nazelnag wrote: »
    if you're going to make "fail optional" = "fail mission" then you need to make a requirement for people to need the accolade in normal, to be able to play on medium and the accolade on medium, to be able to play on elite, so that we don't get flooded with people that have no grasp on how to do the mission on hard difficulty.

    one of the biggest problems, is people that have no idea how to make things, queuing for elite and messing up everyone else's work wich happens constantly.

    What ever work you put up revamping the stf's will be useless, unless you can actually address critical issues like this, any revamp will be useless. :cool:

    It would be nice to have some type of accolade safeguard in place.

    When this system goes live, geared fleet runs only...no more elite PUG's...
    cmbanner2015.jpg
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    virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Herself.

    Male avatar name.
    Male avatar image.
    I'm not saying there's no group content. I'm saying "moving away from forced." This is a subtle distinction. And a increasingly common forum gripe from old timey hardcore raiders.

    That the best rewards should come from the most difficult content and that content should require a group.
    I would say that currently STO has no forced group content. If you define group as forced social interaction. Again, I love the grouping in STO as it is now. And I hope and expect to continue that in the new Elite pugs.

    STO is extremely solo friendly...if not, I wouldn't be here. I don't like people in games generally. They tend to bring all sorts of drama with them that I couldn't care the least about. I've got friends/family/coworkers/neighbors/etc in the real world...I don't need all the garbage from folks in some game. But I have realistic expectations, and if I'm not going to do something I do not deserve to be rewarded for it as if I had.

    Elite pugs are going to be a nightmare...even the Advanced which are replacing the current Elite are going to be more difficult...and the Elite are going to be more difficult than that.

    I can't see anybody other than sadists, masochists, and sadomasochists running Elite pugs.
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    sheldonlcoopersheldonlcooper Member Posts: 4,042 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    you're probably a hardcore raider.

    in any event i guess i'm a TRIBBLE. cheers.
    Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."

    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

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    captainjgeecaptainjgee Member Posts: 144 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Another example of Cryptic listening to stupid STO podcasts, many of the hosts now no longer play STO on a regular basis. :mad: That why I no longer listen to unofficial STO podcasts any more. The only one worth watching now is PWE Livestream, at least you know what their agenda is. ;)

    What a waste of time, the queues are mostly empty these days apart from Bonus weekend events which give extra dilithium or marks. Looks like unless you are a member of large active fleet your gambling if you will complete the Elite STF. So most players will be unable to get the stuff needed for the super upgrades, nice going. :mad:

    Delta Rising is turning out to be a massive let down. :(
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    captainmal3captainmal3 Member Posts: 436 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    A quick look at the queues will tell you that this idea that the majority of players want harder content is false. The queues for the hardest content are completely empty, while the easiest stuff is full. If there weren't such a huge gap in the rewards between normal and elite, most people would play on normal. Even if the missions were fun, after the 50th time you just want to get it over with as quickly as possible, not spend half an hour shooting in to a damage sponge while having to worry the entire time that one of your team mates is going to **** up and make you lose most of the rewards you're after.

    That's why the changes to the current elite queues annoys me so much. Let the minority that really do want harder content have it with the new elites, but why change the current versions as well?
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    catoblepasbetacatoblepasbeta Member Posts: 1,532 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    This will just make Que times even longer. It's hard enough to get into certain queues or certain difficulties as it is. This will just split the players into even more queues than they already are and make it even harder to get into certain content.
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    welcome2earfwelcome2earf Member Posts: 1,746 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    stodecker wrote: »
    For what it's worth:

    We are fully cognizant that there will be complaints that it's too hard. We have no intention of going back on Elite and making it easier to achieve. This is the brass ring for you all to aspire to.

    If anything our worry is that one or two might be too easy compared to the rest. We'll take steps to remedy those situations asap.

    Actually, judging from the posts, that's the LEAST of the voiced concerns: The primary concern is that SIMPLY INCREASING HITPOINTS AND DAMAGE OUTPUT DOTH NOT MAKETH "CHALLENGING".

    People want better AI scripts and more intelligent NPCs, not just more hitpoints. That's not fun, that's tedious.
    T93uSC8.jpg
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    viciouswolf1viciouswolf1 Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Let's face it, R&D is BORING! Why this new focus on R&D is puzzling. So many players don't do R&D because it's simply BORING! Now you want us to do R&D grind on top of the Mark's grind? No thank you.
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    venkouvenkou Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Let's face it, R&D is BORING! Why this new focus on R&D is puzzling. So many players don't do R&D because it's simply BORING! Now you want us to do R&D grind on top of the Mark's grind? No thank you.
    Cryptic is trying to bridge the gap between pc and tablets; therefore, they are stitching together the best of both worlds.

    R&D and Duty Officers = Tablet & PC Functionality.
    Reputation System, Fleet Holdings and Missions = PC Functionality.

    Even though I hate the tablet features, I can understand why Cryptic is including the elements. Cryptic needs to flow with the trends; thus, they are diversifying the STO experience.

    Sometimes I have been overly critical.

    I can sometimes be a selfish pc gamer; however, I can completely understand and accept the new features.
    Actually, judging from the posts, that's the LEAST of the voiced concerns: The primary concern is that SIMPLY INCREASING HITPOINTS AND DAMAGE OUTPUT DOTH NOT MAKETH "CHALLENGING".

    People want better AI scripts and more intelligent NPCs, not just more hitpoints. That's not fun, that's tedious.
    Yeah, I can see your point. Within a certain slanting of perspective, I can also agree with your logic.

    What we have not considered is the game's limitations. Although it would be nice for a robust rpg experience, similar to "Dragon Age', the engine that runs 'Star Trek: Online' may not be accommodating.
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    darthwoodarthwoo Member Posts: 371 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Has anyone raised the obvious issue with the new immediate failure condition for lost optionals in old elite/new advanced? In just the Borg STFs, it would be incredibly easy for some troll to queue up, deliberately blow the optional, and thus waste the other four players' time. Won't go into details, but anyone who's done an elite STF likely knows exactly how to fail the optionals on purpose.
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    ssbn655ssbn655 Member Posts: 1,894 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    gilion wrote: »
    This sounds awesome and I cant wait to try the new Elite missions, but to be honest, this isent what I was hoping for when Cryptic said they would fix power creep. I was hoping that they would fix the game so people cant do over 30k DPS :/

    Oh so your one of the whiners who cant figure out how to up your DPS to more then that? So you want to nerf everyone who spanks you oh boo hoo. Go back to the sandbox.
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    ssbn655ssbn655 Member Posts: 1,894 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Let's face it, R&D is BORING! Why this new focus on R&D is puzzling. So many players don't do R&D because it's simply BORING! Now you want us to do R&D grind on top of the Mark's grind? No thank you.

    Whaaa Whaaaa
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    fireseeedfireseeed Member Posts: 146 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I'm going to need s bigger vessel.
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    ssbn655ssbn655 Member Posts: 1,894 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I posted earlier on the dropping higher level players to 50 on norm ok fine not real bright but ok. The thing that is worrying me is the NW style queue creep where lower level and lower geared players get upped in pugs. Lets be brutally honest a lvl 50 ship will not be an equal to level 60 tier 6 ship ever and they will have the potential of costing higher geared players the mission and rewards. Instead of this scheme that devs have cooked up just lock them out until they hit 60 just like before with current queues.
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    xblazex#7666 xblazex Member Posts: 130 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Not somthing I am fond of . I am not found of the current elite system but then i am forced to do it for rewards . Now you have made it worse. You basically forcing people to go to the Advanced ques for the better rewards.

    You should make the rewards the same in normals and Advanced


    If you did that only people who "enjoyed " hard levels ( for reason i will always fail to understand) would go to them


    With this your going to have people like me who despise them going in them becase its more efficient to farm and hating the experience . If enough players are like me Its going to ruin the experience for everyone eventually as people become more resentful of being forced to do something they don't enjoy.
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    millybunmillybun Member Posts: 232 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Didn't realize till others mentioned it that the way the article is written, Normal queues won't deliver on dilithium anymore? While I rarely if ever do Normal runs if I can help it, I feel this could cause problems, especially in the way of driving players who really don't know any better to rush into Advanced and Elite queues prematurely (as if that doesn't happen enough already for BNPs and the like).

    Or is this only referring to the Normal queues that didn't have dilithium rewards to start with? Regardless, I don't think removing any current dilithium rewards from Normal queues would be a good option. I would also suggest that Reputation currencies like BNPs should be added to Normal queues in small numbers, and increased for Advanced and Elite.

    And besides my concerns over broken/bugged optionals failing the runs, Advanced optionals being restrictive and problematic for PUGs, and insta-killing, near-invisible attacks blowing up a buffed, beefy, healthy player ship, I'm suddenly not sure just boosting enemy damage and HP is really the way to handle increasing difficulty against players. The way I'm reading it, this sounds like it's still putting a focus on pure DPS builds instead of the wide range of abilities and ship types available to us. I understand this is probably due to a limit of how the game's AI and combat mechanics work in the first place, but it's just getting wonky. So hoping there's a bit more subtlety to how difficulties actually work.

    There's also the annoyance regarding some players collecting injuries and not having a clue how to remove them, both in mission and out. If we're really going to have these kinds of increased difficulty changes to Advanced and Elite queues, then there needs to be a more informative way to explain the use of Regenerators and Components to remove them, especially mid-run, and/or making it a smoother, sleeker process to remove the injuries. I personally always remove them upon a death via the character sheet window's glaring injuries button, but others may not realize this.
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    gerwalk0769gerwalk0769 Member Posts: 1,095 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Because many of us do not wish to have forced social interaction. This is actually the majority of modern MMO players.

    Social interaction on the PublicSTF channel, and other match channels can be very minimal.

    1. You indicate an interest in a match.

    2. Depending on the match, you might briefly discuss a strategy. E.g. I have the 2nd lamp in CGE, I'll take Kang, RML everyone for CSE, I'll watch left or right probes for KASE, I'll take the room: KAGE, etc.

    3. Indicate that you are ready (rdy/r) for the match to start.

    3. Thank everyone at the end of the match.
    Joined STO in September 2010.
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    sheldonlcoopersheldonlcooper Member Posts: 4,042 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Social interaction on the PublicSTF channel, and other match channels can be very minimal.

    1. You indicate an interest in a match.

    2. Depending on the match, you might briefly discuss a strategy. E.g. I have the 2nd lamp in CGE, I'll take Kang, RML everyone for CSE, I'll watch left or right probes for KASE, I'll take the room: KAGE, etc.

    3. Indicate that you are ready (rdy/r) for the match to start.

    3. Thank everyone at the end of the match.


    2 and second 3 sound fine to me. I'm willing to do that.

    However 1 = 10 minutes waiting?

    First 3 = 25 minutes waiting?

    I'm afraid I have to pass on that.
    Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."

    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

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    captainpurplecaptainpurple Member Posts: 90 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    stodecker wrote: »
    For what it's worth:

    We are fully cognizant that there will be complaints that it's too hard. We have no intention of going back on Elite and making it easier to achieve. This is the brass ring for you all to aspire to.

    If anything our worry is that one or two might be too easy compared to the rest. We'll take steps to remedy those situations asap.

    Great! Stuff gets nerfed way too fast due to the massive complaints from people who won't take the time to work out the end-game stuff. It's supposed to be challenging and take time to complete. Otherwise it would be easy.

    Another thought, although I don't know if it's been asked yet (I didn't read through all 24 pages). With the increased difficulty of ground STF's (and 3 difficulty levels), what about the achievement requirements for the ground MACO, OMEGA, and KHG ground costumes? Currently it requires all elites done with all optionals. Any plans to adjust the requirements or will the comstumes now only be available for high-end geared level 60 players who can complete the elites and optionals moving forward?

    P.S. Great to see you "back". Many fun years on CoH. Thanks for the good times there. :)
    free jkname
    bergins wrote:
    "General Server Stability" means they are bolting the servers to the floor, right? Wouldn't you be upset if Branflakes were to go stumbling into the server room, knock a rack over, and bring the game down for a DAY? SO, they aren't scrwing it up, they are bolting it down.
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    gerwalk0769gerwalk0769 Member Posts: 1,095 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    2 and second 3 sound fine to me. I'm willing to do that.

    However 1 = 10 minutes waiting?

    First 3 = 25 minutes waiting?

    I'm afraid I have to pass on that.

    That should be 3 then 4, sorry about that.

    Depending on what you want to run and who you want to run it with you could wait, or you could jump right in. People run ISE and CSE fairly regularly; KASE is run also. If there is low traffic on the channel you could wait. A 10 min wait? Generally no, but you could during a slow time.

    Most people are pretty respectful of others time and the match can start almost immediately, especially an ISE since the 10% rule is rarely used anymore. CSE is straightforward if the organizer or another steps up to defend Kang. Little waiting around most times. Sometimes you can wait if you join a pre-made fleet/friend match on PESTF and one of the mates is not ready or if no one volunteers for any of the duties. If you encounter a delay you could always say sorry you do not have a lot of time to wait, wish them luck, and leave the match.

    Everything is not rosy, like in some pugs the optionals have been failed in PESTF matches. But then pugs have improved with the increasing game mechanic power. If I'm waiting too long, for whatever reason, and I do not want to organize a match, I simply pug it.

    A 10 then/or a 25 min wait? Rare in my experience, I would not wait that long in a PESTF event if others are running. I suggest joining a channel, giving it a good faith try, and seeing if you like it.

    PM me if you want a running mate.
    Joined STO in September 2010.
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    coolheadalcoolheadal Member Posts: 1,253 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    This should be interesting to see how everyone does in stronger Elite PVE. Undine Elite ground and space isn't that hard to do. I shouldn't say that then they go in and make it even harder. I am just using my T5/T5-U when it can be made into it. Right now the best Mark 12 Purple Weapons should be strong enough to take out DR, if not? OH BOY! ;)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Time will only tell!
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    vegeta50024vegeta50024 Member Posts: 2,336 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I'd like to take a moment and mention something to ease some people's worries about the new Elite system. It'll take most people a while to even reach Elite, as it's only for level 60 players. Also, I believe it was mentioned that not every queued event/STF was going to get the new Elite version. I think their plan is to have an Elite version for one of each type of Reputation mark. Here are my guesses as to what they will do:

    Omega-Hive Onslaught/Hive Ground
    Romulan-Azure Nebula Rescue
    Nukara-Crystalline Catastrophe
    Dyson-I'd say which ever rewards more.
    Undine-Same as Dyson
    Delta-We already know what this one is.

    TSC_Signature_Gen_4_-_Vegeta_Small.png
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    fraghul2000fraghul2000 Member Posts: 1,590 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    The biggest flaw in the new system is, that there seem to be no special rewards for completing higher quality content. It's just more of the same.

    My guess is, that people are going to keep going the most efficient path. Either the new queues can be facerolled and will replace the current Elite ones, or they're difficult with a real potential to fail, in which case the majority will continue running the old and easy ones and the new ones won't take off.

    Nukara Ground, ESTF Ground, Hive, Undine Elite, shuttle events...all of those queues offer a bit more challenge, but are almost empty, when compared to ESTF Space, Battlezones or the CE.

    Imho those new Elite queues do need some more incentive to play them to be successful.
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    sheldonlcoopersheldonlcooper Member Posts: 4,042 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I'd like to take a moment and mention something to ease some people's worries about the new Elite system. It'll take most people a while to even reach Elite, as it's only for level 60 players. Also, I believe it was mentioned that not every queued event/STF was going to get the new Elite version. I think their plan is to have an Elite version for one of each type of Reputation mark. Here are my guesses as to what they will do:

    Omega-Hive Onslaught/Hive Ground
    Romulan-Azure Nebula Rescue
    Nukara-Crystalline Catastrophe
    Dyson-I'd say which ever rewards more.
    Undine-Same as Dyson
    Delta-We already know what this one is.

    I would absolutely love to see Azure get some love. Give us some decent rewards for the elite! It's a cool mission that's hamstrung by lousy rewards. Give us at least 55 or 60 romulan marks for it.
    Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."

    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

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    sheldonlcoopersheldonlcooper Member Posts: 4,042 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    That should be 3 then 4, sorry about that.

    Depending on what you want to run and who you want to run it with you could wait, or you could jump right in. People run ISE and CSE fairly regularly; KASE is run also. If there is low traffic on the channel you could wait. A 10 min wait? Generally no, but you could during a slow time.

    Most people are pretty respectful of others time and the match can start almost immediately, especially an ISE since the 10% rule is rarely used anymore. CSE is straightforward if the organizer or another steps up to defend Kang. Little waiting around most times. Sometimes you can wait if you join a pre-made fleet/friend match on PESTF and one of the mates is not ready or if no one volunteers for any of the duties. If you encounter a delay you could always say sorry you do not have a lot of time to wait, wish them luck, and leave the match.

    Everything is not rosy, like in some pugs the optionals have been failed in PESTF matches. But then pugs have improved with the increasing game mechanic power. If I'm waiting too long, for whatever reason, and I do not want to organize a match, I simply pug it.

    A 10 then/or a 25 min wait? Rare in my experience, I would not wait that long in a PESTF event if others are running. I suggest joining a channel, giving it a good faith try, and seeing if you like it.

    PM me if you want a running mate.

    I appreciate the time you put into this response. At some point I'll give it a try. I can't remember the last time I failed a pug though. For me it's way less than 5%.

    I honestly believe pugs will handle the new missions after a few weeks. Of course, there are many upgrades to make!
    Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."

    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

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    kerriknightkerriknight Member Posts: 274
    edited September 2014
    The biggest flaw in the new system is, that there seem to be no special rewards for completing higher quality content. It's just more of the same.

    My guess is, that people are going to keep going the most efficient path. Either the new queues can be facerolled and will replace the current Elite ones, or they're difficult with a real potential to fail, in which case the majority will continue running the old and easy ones and the new ones won't take off.

    Nukara Ground, ESTF Ground, Hive, Undine Elite, shuttle events...all of those queues offer a bit more challenge, but are almost empty, when compared to ESTF Space, Battlezones or the CE.

    Imho those new Elite queues do need some more incentive to play them to be successful.

    According to the descriptions of the rewards, the new Elite is where you get the mats for the superior upgrade kits that hold the dilithium cost of item upgrades down to a "reasonable" amount.
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    robeasomrobeasom Member Posts: 1,911 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Another example of Cryptic listening to stupid STO podcasts, many of the hosts now no longer play STO on a regular basis. :mad: That why I no longer listen to unofficial STO podcasts any more. The only one worth watching now is PWE Livestream, at least you know what their agenda is. ;)

    What a waste of time, the queues are mostly empty these days apart from Bonus weekend events which give extra dilithium or marks. Looks like unless you are a member of large active fleet your gambling if you will complete the Elite STF. So most players will be unable to get the stuff needed for the super upgrades, nice going. :mad:

    Delta Rising is turning out to be a massive let down. :(

    Are you sure you playing the same game I have no problem getting a group in a STF or Fleet Event yes there are some that will take some time but I would not say there dead. CE Elite is only a minut or two wair and thats the same for infected it must be the time your playing
    NO TO ARC
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