The Basic upgrades from the vendor are a trap. They are almost 4.3x more expensive than using Superior upgrade tech. Even crafting the Basics yourself will save 25%.
Example:
Very Rare space weapon Mk XII to XIII - Cost: 64000TP
# of Basic Upgrades needed: 32
# of Improved Upgrades needed: 13
# of Superior Upgrades needed: 5
Dil cost if using Basic upgrades: 22,400
Dil cost if using Improved upgrades: 12,350
Dil cost if using Superior upgrades: 5,375
EC cost if buying Basic upgrades from the vendor: 320,000 (10,000 per upgrade)
EC cost if crafting Basic upgrades: 240,000 (7500 per upgrade)
EC cost if crafting Improved upgrades: 195,000 (15000 per upgrade)
EC cost if crafting Superior upgrades: 75,000 (15000 per upgrade)
That being said, it's definitely a moderate EC sink to get to XIV, and a much larger one to get to Gold.
EC is chump change compared to the Dil sink. I can get EC a hell of a lot easier than dil. At least with EC there's no refining cap like there is with dil.
Regardless of what I do I will be behind. That is the nature of this expansion. the only way to keep up is to grind and pay.
If that's what you believe, you'll likely see it come true.
For me, I want clarifications on certain things - want the knowledge - to be able to make the better informed decisions on what to do and what not to do. Knowing how certain things will be at launch, I can better spend my time up to the launch preparing for it...simple as that.
You guys shock me.... you worry more about random mods and what it takes to get to gold more than you care about the major fact that you will be left dry by the time you get there. Im just shocked.
If that's what you believe, you'll likely see it come true.
For me, I want clarifications on certain things - want the knowledge - to be able to make the better informed decisions on what to do and what not to do. Knowing how certain things will be at launch, I can better spend my time up to the launch preparing for it...simple as that.
It wont matter with these guys. You can be informed all you want. The only guarantee is that they will give you the shaft one way or another. That is a fact. History has shown this.
You guys shock me.... you worry more about random mods and what it takes to get to gold more than you care about the major fact that you will be left dry by the time you get there. Im just shocked.
Umm... the "what it takes to get to gold" is why "you will be left dry by the time you get there."
We're all concerned about the costs and mechanics because if the costs are prohibitive or the mechanics are overly cumbersome it allows us to decide whether we actually want to get there. Personally, I'm stockpiling so I have resources to use the system... since as expected upgrading now may be a waste of resources given the shift in endgame positioning. The simple fact is: if the system looks to be too much of a pain in the aft I'll just pass my stockpile to my Fleet and do something more fun. It's not worth stressing over for me since the devs have had concerns over cost mentioned here time and again, and we've already been given info about adjustments to the time-gating. Admittedly, I'd favor just putting back in that 5 sec Progress Bar we used to have for crafting, but that clearly is not the direction this game is taking. :P
So yeah, we're concerned about random mods and what it takes to get there because that is what the upgrade system is designed to provide... and the costs (from direct resource costs, time-gating, and built-in "failure" chance) are why we will or will not use it. Once we have that information we can each determine how best to prepare for Delta Rising and whether it is worth doing so.
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
Umm... the "what it takes to get to gold" is why "you will be left dry by the time you get there."
We're all concerned about the costs and mechanics because if the costs are prohibitive or the mechanics are overly cumbersome it allows us to decide whether we actually want to get there. Personally, I'm stockpiling so I have resources to use the system... since as expected upgrading now may be a waste of resources given the shift in endgame positioning. The simple fact is: if the system looks to be too much of a pain in the aft I'll just pass my stockpile to my Fleet and do something more fun. It's not worth stressing over for me since the devs have had concerns over cost mentioned here time and again, and we've already been given info about adjustments to the time-gating. Admittedly, I'd favor just putting back in that 5 sec Progress Bar we used to have for crafting, but that clearly is not the direction this game is taking. :P
So yeah, we're concerned about random mods and what it takes to get there because that is what the upgrade system is designed to provide... and the costs (from direct resource costs, time-gating, and built-in "failure" chance) are why we will or will not use it. Once we have that information we can each determine how best to prepare for Delta Rising and whether it is worth doing so.
I completely understand. But you missed my point. Logically you would upgrade all your current gear to Mk XIV first, before attempting to get gold. My point was, by the time you get there you wont have the resources.
Let me ask you something, all of that stockpiling, did you grind for it? I'd assume so... That... Or you paid for it. Either way, shouldn't the system be less cumbersome in price as a result?
Also, don't you find it unfair, if not, unfortunate that you wouldn't upgrade your gear for that very same reason? You say you would do something else but aside from the new mission/PvEs, which are negligible for Mk XII gear, what would you do? I personal feel I've done everything I've wanted to and am hoping for X2 to be a nice refresher. Not a cumbersome grind accompanied by a handful of new missions and PvEs.
On another note, if I get lucky and get a Mk XIII gold item, when I upgrade to Mk XIV, that, too, should be gold, right?
http://bit.ly/STOUpgradeTable
Now with preliminary ground items including standard/fleet ground items. Rep items are still WIP. And can someone tell me why 32x2 = 65? :V
On another note, if I get lucky and get a Mk XIII gold item, when I upgrade to Mk XIV, that, too, should be gold, right?
Yes, if you get a lucky crit while upgrading from XII Ultraviolet and end up with an XIII Gold, then you'll have an XIV gold after your next (and final) upgrade. During my testing I had a crazy crit from Purple mk IX to Ultraviolet X and then an immediate crit from Ultraviolet X to Gold XI, so all of my upgrades from XI to XIV were gold quality. I doubt I will ever see an insane chance roll like that again until the day the STO server closes.
The upgrade system never lowers quality or mark level (unless it's a bug like with the TR-116B.. and maybe the retrofit phasers).
Nitpicking is a time-honored tradition of science fiction. Asking your readers not to worry about the "little things" is like asking a dog not to sniff at people's crotches. If there's something that appears to violate natural laws, then you can expect someone's going to point it out. That's just the way things are.
Ok, so not going to read 41 page, My thoughts on the system as it stands now on tribble. I like the idea and the conceptual design, but I despise the dilithium cost attached every time you add a mod. Cryptic needs to rethink this one factor. maybe a smaller cost like 5k dil when you actually get the item leveled up and go to upgrade it is fine, but not per input. That needs to change
Ok, so not going to read 41 page, My thoughts on the system as it stands now on tribble. I like the idea and the conceptual design, but I despise the dilithium cost attached every time you add a mod. Cryptic needs to rethink this one factor. maybe a smaller cost like 5k dil when you actually get the item leveled up and go to upgrade it is fine, but not per input. That needs to change
I agree. You got my vote. Also, I'd love to have access to tribble. I bet a ton others would too.
So basically it boils down to the guys with money, dropping zen for dil win, the poorer guys are f*cked
Isn't that how it always is? "But...but...but... you guys wit no monies can grind? So you dont have no anything to complain about"..... But what if we don't want to grind and our tired of it? "Well, as the Swedish priest put it, Fek off!".
I completely understand. But you missed my point. Logically you would upgrade all your current gear to Mk XIV first, before attempting to get gold. My point was, by the time you get there you wont have the resources.
Let me ask you something, all of that stockpiling, did you grind for it? I'd assume so... That... Or you paid for it. Either way, shouldn't the system be less cumbersome in price as a result?
Also, don't you find it unfair, if not, unfortunate that you wouldn't upgrade your gear for that very same reason? You say you would do something else but aside from the new mission/PvEs, which are negligible for Mk XII gear, what would you do? I personal feel I've done everything I've wanted to and am hoping for X2 to be a nice refresher. Not a cumbersome grind accompanied by a handful of new missions and PvEs.
On another note, if I get lucky and get a Mk XIII gold item, when I upgrade to Mk XIV, that, too, should be gold, right?
For the stockpile, I grindededed it...
For the dilithium, I like CCE anyway, and I tend to use alts to try things out since character slots are cheaper than Respec tokens... so I had a number of well-equipped characters to do the Event with. I have the Emergency Conn Hologram on several characters now, and I have a decent chunk of dilithium stored on the Dilithium Exchange (if you really want to buy my dilithium at 100 dilithium:1 Zen, I won't complain :P) to prevent a misclick on the Finish Now button while I lazily cycle my 20 hr Research assignments. I'm not opposed to spending money on the game, but since the KDF chunk of our allied Fleets gets most of my attention I don't see the need... they don't offer enough things to the KDF or Rom factions as of now to properly motivate my spending.
For the EC's, I had been selling my TRIBBLE and slowly building up a reserve. Then, I got bored and I used a couple Master Keys I had sitting around... and got a Galor (yeah, super lucky). The Galor went on the Exchange and the EC's were added to my stockpile. I have Event ships if I really feel the need for a T5-U11, thank you, and I'll probably just get a C-Store T6-10 in anticipation of the Fleet T6-11. Plus, since I sold it the price on the Galor has dropped significantly as others have figured out the alternatives, so if I really want it back I've already made a reasonable (if not "1%" level) profit by selling it. I don't care enough about a BtC weapon to spend that kind of resources, but I'll sell it for that kind of resources quite happily.
As far as the whole cumbersome... I like having alts. The way the current system is designed is expensive enough that making (properly geared) endgame alts like we currently can is becoming cost-prohibitive, and the increasing prevalence of time-gating projects that take time-gated resources from time-gated queues does not make the game more fun. The stockpile I have built is intended to help mitigate the cumbersome nature of the upgrade system as it stands, but if it still looks like a pain in the aft in spite of my stockpiling I plan to give it to my Fleets since they've made my stay in STO more pleasant.
As to the "do something else" part, you're right... in STO what you listed is what there is to do. I like STO and the community (even those that disagree with me, since sometimes they're right ), and I'd love to see an update that's so chalk full of awesome I want to buy a LTS out of sheer gratitude... but that doesn't mean I can't go "do something else" somewhere else. My disappointment at almost everything Season 9.5 had to offer, paired with the gross imbalance in T6 ship offerings... certainly hasn't helped. Making for more time-gated grindiness and faction imbalance is more likely to push me into something else than prompt me to drop my other factions and invest full-Fed into said time-gated grindiness.
All of that is contingent on what Delta Rising has to offer, of course. It looks a tad gloom-and-DOOOMMM... but it's really not. I'll see what shows up, and if it's worth the time I'll revel in the new goodness Delta Rising has to offer... if it's not, I won't. Fun games are fun.
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
Exo-Plating Armor MK XI becomes a normal blue Polly Alloy without mods when you try to upgrade it.
Personal Mobility Shield MK XI Becomes a normal shield when you try to upgrade it.
Leveless Tal Shiar Adapted Borg Warp Core cannot be upgraded at all.
For the dilithium, I like CCE anyway, and I tend to use alts to try things out since character slots are cheaper than Respec tokens... so I had a number of well-equipped characters to do the Event with. I have the Emergency Conn Hologram on several characters now, and I have a decent chunk of dilithium stored on the Dilithium Exchange (if you really want to buy my dilithium at 100 dilithium:1 Zen, I won't complain :P) to prevent a misclick on the Finish Now button while I lazily cycle my 20 hr Research assignments. I'm not opposed to spending money on the game, but since the KDF chunk of our allied Fleets gets most of my attention I don't see the need... they don't offer enough things to the KDF or Rom factions as of now to properly motivate my spending.
For the EC's, I had been selling my TRIBBLE and slowly building up a reserve. Then, I got bored and I used a couple Master Keys I had sitting around... and got a Galor (yeah, super lucky). The Galor went on the Exchange and the EC's were added to my stockpile. I have Event ships if I really feel the need for a T5-U11, thank you, and I'll probably just get a C-Store T6-10 in anticipation of the Fleet T6-11. Plus, since I sold it the price on the Galor has dropped significantly as others have figured out the alternatives, so if I really want it back I've already made a reasonable (if not "1%" level) profit by selling it. I don't care enough about a BtC weapon to spend that kind of resources, but I'll sell it for that kind of resources quite happily.
As far as the whole cumbersome... I like having alts. The way the current system is designed is expensive enough that making (properly geared) endgame alts like we currently can is becoming cost-prohibitive, and the increasing prevalence of time-gating projects that take time-gated resources from time-gated queues does not make the game more fun. The stockpile I have built is intended to help mitigate the cumbersome nature of the upgrade system as it stands, but if it still looks like a pain in the aft in spite of my stockpiling I plan to give it to my Fleets since they've made my stay in STO more pleasant.
As to the "do something else" part, you're right... in STO what you listed is what there is to do. I like STO and the community (even those that disagree with me, since sometimes they're right ), and I'd love to see an update that's so chalk full of awesome I want to buy a LTS out of sheer gratitude... but that doesn't mean I can't go "do something else" somewhere else. My disappointment at almost everything Season 9.5 had to offer, paired with the gross imbalance in T6 ship offerings... certainly hasn't helped. Making for more time-gated grindiness and faction imbalance is more likely to push me into something else than drop my other factions and invest full-Fed into said time-gated grindiness.
All of that is contingent on what Delta Rising has to offer, of course. It looks a tad gloom-and-DOOOMMM... but it's really not. I'll see what shows up, and if it's worth the time I'll revel in the new goodness Delta Rising has to offer... if it's not, I won't. Fun games are fun.
I agree with you. What I got from what you said is that Delta Rising is going to be a pivotal point for this game. If done wrong in any way, the developers may be very much looking at a exodus that far exceeds the new players they are aiming to get. I only say this because I know you and I are not the only ones that feel this way. If they honestly wanted to make money, they wouldn't push old/veteran players away with their decisions to implement/force a pay or grind scenario.
As it stands, it goes like this... I want to have fun. Answer: Play the game and get to top level... Done. I still want to have fun. Answer: PvE/PvP..... I get my [REDACTED] handed to me. Solution: get better gear. How do I get better gear? Answer: Grind or pay. Since when is it fun to get your [REDACTED] handed to you? Sure, it could be a learning experience, but unless you have better gear, it really serves no point does it? But I digress. Reality is, we've all, literally, in both senses, have played your game cryptic. Both STO and your game of pay or grind. We earned what we have. Give us content. Not more "Here's a little more content, now pay or grind". If you don't mind this concept, more power to you. But it's about time we got swamped with actual content. Content does NOT equal grinding.
Exo-Plating Armor MK XI becomes a normal blue Polly Alloy without mods when you try to upgrade it.
Personal Mobility Shield MK XI Becomes a normal shield when you try to upgrade it.
Leveless Tal Shiar Adapted Borg Warp Core cannot be upgraded at all.
OOO! The borg core.... I forgot about that one. Yeah, that better be upgrade-able.
So basically it boils down to the guys with money, dropping zen for dil win, the poorer guys are f*cked
Sort of. Playing around, you get a massive gain from getting to Mk XII purple but the gains after that are fairly academic. I wouldn't necessarily chase getting legendary in every slot.
Also, playing around, you'd be looking at consuming thousands of dollars worth of dilithium if you were an impatient person trying to get all oranges.
The funny thing is that the value of dilithium will spike which favors people who play a lot but don't have a lot of money.
Sort of. Playing around, you get a massive gain from getting to Mk XII purple but the gains after that are fairly academic. I wouldn't necessarily chase getting legendary in every slot.
Also, playing around, you'd be looking at consuming thousands of dollars worth of dilithium if you were an impatient person trying to get all oranges.
The funny thing is that the value of dilithium will spike which favors people who play a lot but don't have a lot of money.
Assuming there isn't an exodus. If there is, it won't really matter. But yes. As of right now, I don't have enough dil to convert to zen in order to upgrade my gal X. But, hopefully, with the "spike" I will be able to.
I agree with you. What I got from what you said is that Delta Rising is going to be a pivotal point for this game. If done wrong in any way, the developers may be very much looking at a exodus that far exceeds the new players they are aiming to get.
In all honesty, I'm another one in total agreement with you on this point. I too see Delta Rising as a make or break point for STO and I'm praying it works out for the better.
In all honesty, I'm another one in total agreement with you on this point. I too see Delta Rising as a make or break point for STO and I'm praying it works out for the better.
To clarify, if Cryptic/PWE just keep on keepin on..... exodus. Essentially, this game is hanging by a thread with an unknown weight tolerance. With this new expansion, they are essentially attempting to add weight to that strand without providing it with enough auxiliary support.
To clarify, if Cryptic/PWE just keep on keepin on..... exodus.
I'm generally inclined to agree as well, I've been doing the maths for the upgrade system and it doesn't look good at all even being optimistic about it.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
I'm generally inclined to agree as well, I've been doing the maths for the upgrade system and it doesn't look good at all even being optimistic about it.
And that's just the upgrade system. Do you have multiple characters? Have you incorporated the cost to upgrade your ship(s)? How does the upgraded version fair against the T6s, in your opinion? And that is all resources, time, and money spent to get to exactly where we already are right now. So I will say it again: Cryptic/PWE, ditch the pay or grind model. You are just tightening the game's noose and subsequently, your own as well.
And that's just the upgrade system. Do you have multiple characters? Have you incorporated the cost to upgrade your ship(s)? How does the upgraded version fair against the T6s, in your opinion? And that is all resources, time, and money spent to get to exactly where we already are right now. So I will say it again: Cryptic/PWE, ditch the pay or grind model. You are just tightening the game's noose and subsequently, your own as well.
I do yes, and yes I did add that cost in for both an optimistic and pessimistic ship upgrade cost, it gets pretty insane. What I don't get is how newer players could possibly be competitive with us veterans. Because starting from scratch with this system must seem pretty daunting.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
I spent a considerable amount of Friday night and most of Saturday with this system. Seeing what works, what doesn't. Everything SEEMS to work as intended...
And the system sucks.
Let me put it another way: I ran an experiment yesterday, almost as soon as I hit TRIBBLE. I crafted a purple Mk II beam array, and endeavored to see how many blue upgrade kits (I couldn't make Purple, I'd run out of the needed Radiogenic Particles the day before - had 12, got me 30 kits and one Fleet-quality Mk XIV Voth AP) would be needed to get it... first to Mk XIV, then to Gold quality. So it's STARTING as a purple item. It takes 1 kit to get the item to Mk VI. One more got it to Mk VIII. After that it started getting greater. Two, then three... then five or six... until ultimately I'd spent 63 Kits getting it to Mk XIV.
I then spent 225 more to get it to Fleet-quality (Ultra-rare).
I then spent 30 more getting it to gold.
I reran the experiment. This time, it got to Fleet-grade before hitting Mk XIV... and took 300 more Kits to get Gold.
Finally, my last experiment. I made four more Mk II beams... and 902 Upgrade Kits. It took over an hour to make them all, even using the "Finish Now" and abusing the Dilithium Grant on Drozana. I decided I was going to kit my T5-U Fleet Gal-X in Mk XIV Fleet-or-better AP beams - 6 in all, since I was still using the Neutronic Torpedo and the KCB. So I crafted up 4 more Mk II beams, and decided "To hell with it, let's upgrade the Consoles, too." So, 3 Blue Mk XI AP MagRegs and a Mk XII blue, plus four purple Mk II beams.
902 kits later, I have ONE Gold Beam, 3 more Fleet-grade beams, and four Mk XIV purple Consoles. And that's IT. It took... maybe 400 total to get everything to Mk XIV. The other 500 Kits ALL went into a grand total... of 9 Rarity Upgrades. Mind you, the total cost of APPLYING the Upgrade Kits now sat at 856,900 Dilithium. Plus the amount to rush the upgrades. I burned through four million Dilithium yesterday... and got moderately better gear.
This system is utter bull. It's an over-monetized mess. I know a guy... Played since open beta. Has a LTS, the Legacy Pack, the Ops Pack, just about every C-Store ship, damn near every Lobi ship, and a leadership role in a massive fleet. He's leaving the game because of this system because he's tired of the continuous application of the tenth Rule of Acquisition. People will argue "But Cryptic needs this to keep the game going." But they don't. Let's look at ALL of the other Dilithium sinks - and all of the things that cost ZEN.
Fleets - a massive dilithium sink that has been a pain for anyone not in a max-size fleet since the system launched. It values dilithium less than commodities bought for EC - at just one paltry Fleet Credit per dilithium. And it takes MILLIONS of dilithium.
Reps - Dilithium store costs are borderline excessive for Space weapons. Even ground gear is a bit pricey. The special requisitions are worse, costing a minimum of more than a day's refining limit to get. And this equipment is now the standard.
Crafting timers - Something that allows you to make use of the Crafting system at late-game in a reasonable length of time. Crafting offers gear of roughly the same power level as Reputation Dilithium Stores, but takes 3 times as long to get to. Unless you pay a million Dilithium per school. Literally. Geko said in PO 179 that we'll eventually get custom item mods... which will be more expensive (as if it isn't already), until which time you're stuck with a gamble.
Master Keys - Easily the most efficient way to convert Dilithium or ZEN into EC. Everyone buys and sells them. They run upwards of 2 million EC a pop on the Exchange. But someone has to pay Cryptic real money at some point to get them - be it buying the ZEN directly with cash, or buying ZEN someone else paid for using Dilithium. Ultimately, every Master Key is money in Cryptic's pocket before it's ever used.
Fleet Ship Modules - See Master Keys. These aren't as efficient a converter, but the task is the same. Each one is $5 in Cryptic's pocket, and EVERYONE wants Fleet Ships. They're also the only type of provisioning Fleets can't share - meaning you have to do the Fleet grind (see above) to get them.
C-Store Ships - the biggest sellers in the game, easily. Almost everyone flies one. If they don't, they're flying Mirror ships - which come from Lock Boxes ultimately, and therefore cost ZEN. Purchases tend to ebb and flow, but they never fully cease because there are so many, and so many of them are so powerful.
Lobi Ships - See Master Keys. Only during rare events is it possible to get Lobi without using Master Keys - and it takes several events to get something of any real value besides a console.
Crafting packs - substitutes for the paltry drop rates of purple Crafting Materials that, despite being pictured on the item and specified in the item title for Elite Material rewards, only drop about one time in ten. These packs are also the only source - outside the Xindi Lock Box - of Crafting Catalysts, which are in fairly high demand.
DOff packs and Roster Expansions - not as big of sellers, but many people buy lots of these when there's a promo on because of the ships.
The Delta Ops Pack - Currently on sale for $125 USD, for ships that won't even release for a month. Still a good deal, sure, but it IS still a money-maker - just as every individual ship will be when DR launches. This alone could keep Cryptic going for a while.
Monthly subscribers - They still exist and still pay a monthly tithe to Cryptic. They are few, but they are there.
Lifers - Arguably the best and worst subscription choice. It pays for itself after 13 months and gives access to all the Veteran rewards. Problem is, the ships are the only ones really worth it - solid hulls, if not about to win any beauty contests in the case of the Chimera. The Veteran Dilithium refiner would be the only other real draw... and the Fleet Refiner on the Dilithium Mine is better. In the time it takes to do one Veteran refining - 1,000 Dilithium and a pair of DOffs over 48 hours - the Fleet refiner can do 3 - one at the beginning for 5s with no DOffs, one in the middle, and one at the end, refining 1,500 in the time it takes the Veteran to refine 1,000.
While there is THEORETICALLY a max cap of 441,000 Dilithium someone can refine in a day - because you can have 49 characters, using the inventory refining, the Veteran refiner, and the Fleet refiner - it would take literally all day to get the dilithium ore on ALL of those alts and refine it. No one has 49 characters. No one is refining at max with them. Ultimately, if you want to do ANYTHING without taking months to do it, you have to pay Cryptic absurd amounts of money. Star Trek Online is making Perfect World more money… than the game for which they are named. It has eclipsed their flagship title for profit. And yet, they continue to demand more and more money.
Cryptic… Enough is enough. You’re making more money than at any time in your history. I understand that Dilithium prices are coming down in regards to Upgrade Kits. I join my retiring friend in quoting War!Verse Picard from Yesterday’s Enterprise to state my opinion on the matter (a more aggressive reaction than mine, but fitting nonetheless): "Not good enough, damn it, not good enough!" This system does NOT need to be a Dilithium sink. Crafting on its own is already a big enough one. It does not need a Dilithium price tag. So, I have two pieces of feedback for this system:
1: Please, please, PLEASE, add Kits that give Rarity Points. That is the biggest pitfall of the system – that the Tech Point kits have a chance… to give you a chance… to get a Rarity Upgrade. Using 300 Tech Kits to get a Rarity Upgrade is absurd. Give us a Kit that gives… hell, even a 10% Rarity chance when you use it. The system desperately needs such.
2: Remove the Dilithium cost from Tech kits. Stick it on Rarity kits if you implement those, but PLEASE keep it off Tech Kits. Players are going to wind up using 30-40 of them, basically doubling the cost of the item, for an upgrade that is moderate at best. Make it an EC cost. Hell, make it a 100,000 EC cost. Just please, for the love of God, do NOT leave it a Dilithium cost.
Comments
Regardless of what I do I will be behind. That is the nature of this expansion. the only way to keep up is to grind and pay.
If that's what you believe, you'll likely see it come true.
For me, I want clarifications on certain things - want the knowledge - to be able to make the better informed decisions on what to do and what not to do. Knowing how certain things will be at launch, I can better spend my time up to the launch preparing for it...simple as that.
It wont matter with these guys. You can be informed all you want. The only guarantee is that they will give you the shaft one way or another. That is a fact. History has shown this.
Umm... the "what it takes to get to gold" is why "you will be left dry by the time you get there."
We're all concerned about the costs and mechanics because if the costs are prohibitive or the mechanics are overly cumbersome it allows us to decide whether we actually want to get there. Personally, I'm stockpiling so I have resources to use the system... since as expected upgrading now may be a waste of resources given the shift in endgame positioning. The simple fact is: if the system looks to be too much of a pain in the aft I'll just pass my stockpile to my Fleet and do something more fun. It's not worth stressing over for me since the devs have had concerns over cost mentioned here time and again, and we've already been given info about adjustments to the time-gating. Admittedly, I'd favor just putting back in that 5 sec Progress Bar we used to have for crafting, but that clearly is not the direction this game is taking. :P
So yeah, we're concerned about random mods and what it takes to get there because that is what the upgrade system is designed to provide... and the costs (from direct resource costs, time-gating, and built-in "failure" chance) are why we will or will not use it. Once we have that information we can each determine how best to prepare for Delta Rising and whether it is worth doing so.
I completely understand. But you missed my point. Logically you would upgrade all your current gear to Mk XIV first, before attempting to get gold. My point was, by the time you get there you wont have the resources.
Let me ask you something, all of that stockpiling, did you grind for it? I'd assume so... That... Or you paid for it. Either way, shouldn't the system be less cumbersome in price as a result?
Also, don't you find it unfair, if not, unfortunate that you wouldn't upgrade your gear for that very same reason? You say you would do something else but aside from the new mission/PvEs, which are negligible for Mk XII gear, what would you do? I personal feel I've done everything I've wanted to and am hoping for X2 to be a nice refresher. Not a cumbersome grind accompanied by a handful of new missions and PvEs.
On another note, if I get lucky and get a Mk XIII gold item, when I upgrade to Mk XIV, that, too, should be gold, right?
http://bit.ly/STOUpgradeTable
Now with preliminary ground items including standard/fleet ground items. Rep items are still WIP. And can someone tell me why 32x2 = 65? :V
Yes, if you get a lucky crit while upgrading from XII Ultraviolet and end up with an XIII Gold, then you'll have an XIV gold after your next (and final) upgrade. During my testing I had a crazy crit from Purple mk IX to Ultraviolet X and then an immediate crit from Ultraviolet X to Gold XI, so all of my upgrades from XI to XIV were gold quality. I doubt I will ever see an insane chance roll like that again until the day the STO server closes.
The upgrade system never lowers quality or mark level (unless it's a bug like with the TR-116B.. and maybe the retrofit phasers).
Joined January 2009
Also, any word on the tregolar swords being upgradable please? For the sake of Yarr!
Free dil box?
On Tribble you can claim a test box that awards dilithium.
I agree. You got my vote. Also, I'd love to have access to tribble. I bet a ton others would too.
Isn't that how it always is? "But...but...but... you guys wit no monies can grind? So you dont have no anything to complain about"..... But what if we don't want to grind and our tired of it? "Well, as the Swedish priest put it, Fek off!".
Tribble is awesome for testing build changes and lobi gear. I miss it. One more month.
For the stockpile, I grindededed it...
For the dilithium, I like CCE anyway, and I tend to use alts to try things out since character slots are cheaper than Respec tokens... so I had a number of well-equipped characters to do the Event with. I have the Emergency Conn Hologram on several characters now, and I have a decent chunk of dilithium stored on the Dilithium Exchange (if you really want to buy my dilithium at 100 dilithium:1 Zen, I won't complain :P) to prevent a misclick on the Finish Now button while I lazily cycle my 20 hr Research assignments. I'm not opposed to spending money on the game, but since the KDF chunk of our allied Fleets gets most of my attention I don't see the need... they don't offer enough things to the KDF or Rom factions as of now to properly motivate my spending.
For the EC's, I had been selling my TRIBBLE and slowly building up a reserve. Then, I got bored and I used a couple Master Keys I had sitting around... and got a Galor (yeah, super lucky). The Galor went on the Exchange and the EC's were added to my stockpile. I have Event ships if I really feel the need for a T5-U11, thank you, and I'll probably just get a C-Store T6-10 in anticipation of the Fleet T6-11. Plus, since I sold it the price on the Galor has dropped significantly as others have figured out the alternatives, so if I really want it back I've already made a reasonable (if not "1%" level) profit by selling it. I don't care enough about a BtC weapon to spend that kind of resources, but I'll sell it for that kind of resources quite happily.
As far as the whole cumbersome... I like having alts. The way the current system is designed is expensive enough that making (properly geared) endgame alts like we currently can is becoming cost-prohibitive, and the increasing prevalence of time-gating projects that take time-gated resources from time-gated queues does not make the game more fun. The stockpile I have built is intended to help mitigate the cumbersome nature of the upgrade system as it stands, but if it still looks like a pain in the aft in spite of my stockpiling I plan to give it to my Fleets since they've made my stay in STO more pleasant.
As to the "do something else" part, you're right... in STO what you listed is what there is to do. I like STO and the community (even those that disagree with me, since sometimes they're right
All of that is contingent on what Delta Rising has to offer, of course. It looks a tad gloom-and-DOOOMMM... but it's really not. I'll see what shows up, and if it's worth the time I'll revel in the new goodness Delta Rising has to offer... if it's not, I won't. Fun games are fun.
Exo-Plating Armor MK XI becomes a normal blue Polly Alloy without mods when you try to upgrade it.
Personal Mobility Shield MK XI Becomes a normal shield when you try to upgrade it.
Leveless Tal Shiar Adapted Borg Warp Core cannot be upgraded at all.
As it stands, it goes like this... I want to have fun. Answer: Play the game and get to top level... Done. I still want to have fun. Answer: PvE/PvP..... I get my [REDACTED] handed to me. Solution: get better gear. How do I get better gear? Answer: Grind or pay. Since when is it fun to get your [REDACTED] handed to you? Sure, it could be a learning experience, but unless you have better gear, it really serves no point does it? But I digress. Reality is, we've all, literally, in both senses, have played your game cryptic. Both STO and your game of pay or grind. We earned what we have. Give us content. Not more "Here's a little more content, now pay or grind". If you don't mind this concept, more power to you. But it's about time we got swamped with actual content. Content does NOT equal grinding.
OOO! The borg core.... I forgot about that one. Yeah, that better be upgrade-able.
Sort of. Playing around, you get a massive gain from getting to Mk XII purple but the gains after that are fairly academic. I wouldn't necessarily chase getting legendary in every slot.
Also, playing around, you'd be looking at consuming thousands of dollars worth of dilithium if you were an impatient person trying to get all oranges.
The funny thing is that the value of dilithium will spike which favors people who play a lot but don't have a lot of money.
Assuming there isn't an exodus. If there is, it won't really matter. But yes. As of right now, I don't have enough dil to convert to zen in order to upgrade my gal X. But, hopefully, with the "spike" I will be able to.
In all honesty, I'm another one in total agreement with you on this point. I too see Delta Rising as a make or break point for STO and I'm praying it works out for the better.
To clarify, if Cryptic/PWE just keep on keepin on..... exodus. Essentially, this game is hanging by a thread with an unknown weight tolerance. With this new expansion, they are essentially attempting to add weight to that strand without providing it with enough auxiliary support.
I'm generally inclined to agree as well, I've been doing the maths for the upgrade system and it doesn't look good at all even being optimistic about it.
And that's just the upgrade system. Do you have multiple characters? Have you incorporated the cost to upgrade your ship(s)? How does the upgraded version fair against the T6s, in your opinion? And that is all resources, time, and money spent to get to exactly where we already are right now. So I will say it again: Cryptic/PWE, ditch the pay or grind model. You are just tightening the game's noose and subsequently, your own as well.
I do yes, and yes I did add that cost in for both an optimistic and pessimistic ship upgrade cost, it gets pretty insane. What I don't get is how newer players could possibly be competitive with us veterans. Because starting from scratch with this system must seem pretty daunting.
And the system sucks.
Let me put it another way: I ran an experiment yesterday, almost as soon as I hit TRIBBLE. I crafted a purple Mk II beam array, and endeavored to see how many blue upgrade kits (I couldn't make Purple, I'd run out of the needed Radiogenic Particles the day before - had 12, got me 30 kits and one Fleet-quality Mk XIV Voth AP) would be needed to get it... first to Mk XIV, then to Gold quality. So it's STARTING as a purple item. It takes 1 kit to get the item to Mk VI. One more got it to Mk VIII. After that it started getting greater. Two, then three... then five or six... until ultimately I'd spent 63 Kits getting it to Mk XIV.
I then spent 225 more to get it to Fleet-quality (Ultra-rare).
I then spent 30 more getting it to gold.
I reran the experiment. This time, it got to Fleet-grade before hitting Mk XIV... and took 300 more Kits to get Gold.
Finally, my last experiment. I made four more Mk II beams... and 902 Upgrade Kits. It took over an hour to make them all, even using the "Finish Now" and abusing the Dilithium Grant on Drozana. I decided I was going to kit my T5-U Fleet Gal-X in Mk XIV Fleet-or-better AP beams - 6 in all, since I was still using the Neutronic Torpedo and the KCB. So I crafted up 4 more Mk II beams, and decided "To hell with it, let's upgrade the Consoles, too." So, 3 Blue Mk XI AP MagRegs and a Mk XII blue, plus four purple Mk II beams.
902 kits later, I have ONE Gold Beam, 3 more Fleet-grade beams, and four Mk XIV purple Consoles. And that's IT. It took... maybe 400 total to get everything to Mk XIV. The other 500 Kits ALL went into a grand total... of 9 Rarity Upgrades. Mind you, the total cost of APPLYING the Upgrade Kits now sat at 856,900 Dilithium. Plus the amount to rush the upgrades. I burned through four million Dilithium yesterday... and got moderately better gear.
This system is utter bull. It's an over-monetized mess. I know a guy... Played since open beta. Has a LTS, the Legacy Pack, the Ops Pack, just about every C-Store ship, damn near every Lobi ship, and a leadership role in a massive fleet. He's leaving the game because of this system because he's tired of the continuous application of the tenth Rule of Acquisition. People will argue "But Cryptic needs this to keep the game going." But they don't. Let's look at ALL of the other Dilithium sinks - and all of the things that cost ZEN.
While there is THEORETICALLY a max cap of 441,000 Dilithium someone can refine in a day - because you can have 49 characters, using the inventory refining, the Veteran refiner, and the Fleet refiner - it would take literally all day to get the dilithium ore on ALL of those alts and refine it. No one has 49 characters. No one is refining at max with them. Ultimately, if you want to do ANYTHING without taking months to do it, you have to pay Cryptic absurd amounts of money. Star Trek Online is making Perfect World more money… than the game for which they are named. It has eclipsed their flagship title for profit. And yet, they continue to demand more and more money.
Cryptic… Enough is enough. You’re making more money than at any time in your history. I understand that Dilithium prices are coming down in regards to Upgrade Kits. I join my retiring friend in quoting War!Verse Picard from Yesterday’s Enterprise to state my opinion on the matter (a more aggressive reaction than mine, but fitting nonetheless): "Not good enough, damn it, not good enough!" This system does NOT need to be a Dilithium sink. Crafting on its own is already a big enough one. It does not need a Dilithium price tag. So, I have two pieces of feedback for this system:
1: Please, please, PLEASE, add Kits that give Rarity Points. That is the biggest pitfall of the system – that the Tech Point kits have a chance… to give you a chance… to get a Rarity Upgrade. Using 300 Tech Kits to get a Rarity Upgrade is absurd. Give us a Kit that gives… hell, even a 10% Rarity chance when you use it. The system desperately needs such.
2: Remove the Dilithium cost from Tech kits. Stick it on Rarity kits if you implement those, but PLEASE keep it off Tech Kits. Players are going to wind up using 30-40 of them, basically doubling the cost of the item, for an upgrade that is moderate at best. Make it an EC cost. Hell, make it a 100,000 EC cost. Just please, for the love of God, do NOT leave it a Dilithium cost.