The other thing is whoever came up with the algorithm for the amount of TP required for each item, should be fired! ... Then have their hands cut off ... Then shot, repeatedly ... Then impaled!
And people thought I was bad. :eek: But suffice to say I agree with you
i think the weapons are suppose to be higher and harder to upgrade but yeah the difference is sort of high the weapons should be brought down quite a bit
i also think the dill price on the kits should be cut in half across the board because as is is just way to much dill as we still need the dil to buy the weapons int he first place then spend the dill to upgrade them
Aren't set pieces also a pain to upgrade? I thought those were a pain also.
Can someone please enlighten me? If I get enough TP to get my beam from Mk XII to Mk XIV and I choose to upgrade. Will my next beam only need 1 kit to upgrade to Mk XIV or will it just be as much of a waste of my time as the first one?
Aren't set pieces also a pain to upgrade? I thought those were a pain also.
Yes. Reputation set pieces are the most expensive things to upgrade, which means the most clicking and misery involved. They cost 1.66 times as much to upgrade as a regular item. See my signature.
Can someone please enlighten me? If I get enough TP to get my beam from Mk XII to Mk XIV and I choose to upgrade. Will my next beam only need 1 kit to upgrade to Mk XIV or will it just be as much of a waste of my time as the first one?
It will cost you the same amount for every item.
For example, 1 Very Rare beam array Mk XII needs 192,000 tech points to go from XII to XIV.
Thus, 2 beams need 384,000 to get them both from XII to XIV, 3 beams need 576,000, etcetera.
Also I priced out a rough estimate of how much it would cost to get all of the gear on my main ship from XII to XIV, and separately priced Ultra Rare, and Epic upgrades, all in the table available in my signature. I think I will skip Ultra Rare and Epic upgrades entirely if the prices don't come down. That's just too much for me to handle.
Aaaaaaand has anyone worked out a proper formula for including Tech Point overflow? It's probably very simple but math was never my favorite thing. :P
Nitpicking is a time-honored tradition of science fiction. Asking your readers not to worry about the "little things" is like asking a dog not to sniff at people's crotches. If there's something that appears to violate natural laws, then you can expect someone's going to point it out. That's just the way things are.
Yes. Reputation set pieces are the most expensive things to upgrade, which means the most clicking and misery involved. They cost 1.66 times as much to upgrade as a regular item. See my signature.
It will cost you the same amount for every item.
For example, 1 Very Rare beam array Mk XII needs 192,000 tech points to go from XII to XIV.
Thus, 2 beams need 384,000 to get them both from XII to XIV, 3 beams need 576,000, etcetera.
Also I priced out a rough estimate of how much it would cost to get all of the gear on my main ship from XII to XIV, and separately priced Ultra Rare, and Epic upgrades, all in the table available in my signature. I think I will skip Ultra Rare and Epic upgrades entirely if the prices don't come down. That's just too much for me to handle.
Aaaaaaand has anyone worked out a proper formula for including Tech Point overflow? It's probably very simple but math was never my favorite thing. :P
My god! This upgrading system is worse than crafting. At least with crafting, when I hit rank 15, assuming I have the mats and doffs, I can just keep pumping out top level gear at less cost than it would if I were rank 1. Yet the upgrade system can't be the same way? Like once you have enough TP for, lets say beams, I should be able to put any and all beams through at no additional cost. This would be dynamic in terms of how many total points. For example, I have X TP in beams which allows me to get to Mk XIV free, but if I add more TP, not only can I get to Mk XIV but I get a rarity upgrade as well. This, to me, makes more sense.
Just to be clear, TP gets added to the item you're upgrading, not to a 'bucket' that you level up like your R&D skill levels or doffing commendation levels. You can see it on the item's tooltip next to all the usual info like the DPS and stuff. TP is like a consumable (or maybe more like a self-consuming currency); once applied, it goes away after the item is upgraded, leaving no trace behind that it ever existed.
With that being said, what you suggest is a very nice idea and I would be very much in favor of having future TP upgrade costs reduced by a modifier/variable that takes into account how many TP you have spent on all of your past upgrades; similar to how your chances for better outcomes increase in R&D when you hit the higher levels. They'd never let you put gear through for free but a scaling discount up to a certain cap would be appreciated.
Nitpicking is a time-honored tradition of science fiction. Asking your readers not to worry about the "little things" is like asking a dog not to sniff at people's crotches. If there's something that appears to violate natural laws, then you can expect someone's going to point it out. That's just the way things are.
Just to be clear, TP gets added to the item you're upgrading, not to a 'bucket' that you level up like your R&D skill levels or doffing commendation levels. You can see it on the item's tooltip next to all the usual info like the DPS and stuff. TP is like a consumable (or maybe more like a self-consuming currency); once applied, it goes away after the item is upgraded, leaving no trace behind that it ever existed.
With that being said, what you suggest is a very nice idea and I would be very much in favor of having future TP upgrade costs reduced by a modifier/variable that takes into account how many TP you have spent on all of your past upgrades; similar to how your chances for better outcomes increase in R&D when you hit the higher levels. They'd never let you put gear through for free but a scaling discount up to a certain cap would be appreciated.
Just to say I approve of that table you've made, very nice
A few observations that I thought of overnight.
Although the devs have said you should be able to buy the upgrade kits off the exchange, I do have to wonder how practical this would be with the sheer number of kits you need to upgrade any gear. I imagine they could end up being fairly costly on the whole simply because of that, the sheer number you need, which could well push the price up.
Either that, or there won't be enough on there to go round because many people are using them for their own upgrades, and as I see it the basics are a rip off, and if you can craft the mid range you may as well wait and use superiors.
The other aspect is the amount of resources, especially dilithium. The queues are pretty sparce of people at times, and with the way new content will be one must ask what they will look like when missions may potentially become emptier due to a split of the veterans from other players who will be in separate missions instead of the current situation where people pile into the Elites.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that if these missions are truly as hard as the devs like to say they will be, then many of the runs will be formed in private queues, which could mean new channels set up that go back to the old times of test-gated entry.
What I'm trying to say with this, is that we're seeing this from the perspective of veterans who have the gear to get the best rewards, the best resources easier. Yet the new person will be hampered even further than we've allowed for as they still need to build their ships in the first place, therefore resources generally not as easily forthcoming therefore the veteran/new player gap increases.
Without a way of choosing what modifiers we get it makes upgrading a harder pill to swallow. It would make a lot more sense to implement this to the system, as no doubt many will worry that when you do bring in that function it'll be another needless sink we all get to grind through, which will only add to the costs again.
I've obviously tried to keep those points brief but hopefully they make sense. I should probably also add that I'm taking it from the perspective of people who can't afford to pay to essentially play 'catch-up' by paying into the cool down skipping. This means they essentially have to wait to even begin catching up at all, as no-one in their right mind would pay to skip any of that.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
For example, 1 Very Rare beam array Mk XII needs 192,000 tech points to go from XII to XIV.
Thus, 2 beams need 384,000 to get them both from XII to XIV, 3 beams need 576,000, etcetera.
Umm, actually not quite ... The price essentially doubles each time you go up a Mk ... That's why Epic Beams cost 360,000 EACH! ... yep that's roughly 28 Superior Tech Kits ... The ones that require PURPLE Mats and 2 x Blur Components to craft (you know the hardest to get, and most expensive on the exchange) and It's 150 Dil (4200 Dil) EVERY time you want to finish now on the Components, and 225 DIl (6300 Dil) and 15,000 (420,000 EC) on each Tech Kit .
The we have the Clickety Click Click, (after the hours of Clickety Click Click to create the components and kits) which is another 1075 Each time (30,100 Dil)
Or You 'could' save some of the crafting Dil costs above, by not hitting "finish now" on the components and kits, but then who wants to wait until STO Season 23 Launches before you have enough Kits?
So we have Approx: 40,600 Refined Dilithium (or 30,100 if you wait) and 420,000 EC ...
Not including ANY of the time or cost involved in getting the raw materials.
An I remind you once again, that due to the RNG ... Everything you just spent can get you ... NOTHING ...
Thpppwwwtttt ... It Failed ... bam bow ... Try again sucker ... which costs 50K or so Dil ... Each time ... unless you want to wait one and a half days to try again, and even if it succeeds, you still have to pay the 50K dil ... Or wait one and hlaf days before you can even use that nice new toy.
And all that for ONE item only ...
Now add it up for the other 20+ items on ONE ship, and the 5 you're wearing (and not counting if you swap gear for different BZ's)
Not to mention your poor BoFF's, who'll be popping like a cheerleader's cherry on Prom night if you don't give them useful gear as well ...
Now you know why such a brutal sounding disposition of the Dev who created this system ...
Of course ... You can just pay 1000 Zen for each item and you can buy the "Coin provided by 'Q'" that will guarantee a 1 hit upgrade to Epic ...
Now add it up for the other 20+ items on ONE ship, and the 5 you're wearing (and not counting if you swap gear for different BZ's)
Not to mention your poor BoFF's, who'll be popping like a cheerleader's cherry on Prom night if you don't give them useful gear as well ...
LOL, you are right as well!
The Dil turnover of my toonfam has been substantial the past years. But even if Id take into account that Cryptic/PWE intends us to keep busy for a year or so with this expansion I hope the so far presented figures from tribble (thx for testing em out peeps in this thread) get a cereous adjustment b4 hitting holodeck.
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Umm, actually not quite ... The price essentially doubles each time you go up a Mk ... That's why Epic Beams cost 360,000 EACH! ... yep that's roughly 28 Superior Tech Kits ... The ones that require PURPLE Mats and 2 x Blur Components to craft (you know the hardest to get, and most expensive on the exchange) and It's 150 Dil (4200 Dil) EVERY time you want to finish now on the Components, and 225 DIl (6300 Dil) and 15,000 (420,000 EC) on each Tech Kit .
He only asked how much to go from XII to XIV, which is a fixed cost, not how much to take it all the way to XIV Gold, so yes, 192,000 TP is accurate (and extrapolate resource costs based on that number as needed).
If we're talking XII to XIV Gold, then yes you're right the price is astronomical. The numbers I ran on taking my Galor to full XIV Gold would be roughly: 33,286,728 TP
2,612 Superior Tech Upgrade kits 2,807,900 (or, 15,600 Zen if the exchange rate is 180) 39,180,000 EC 5,224 Rare R&D Components 2,612 Very Rare R&D Materials
(This assumes 2 failed rarity upgrades from Very Rare to Ultra Rare and 3 failed rarity upgrades from Ultra Rare to Goldper item, which, arguably is a conservative number of failures. This also doesn't take into account crits during the crafting of the Rare R&D components or the Superior upgrades themselves, which would reduce the cost by some margin, nor does it take into account any lucky rarity crits while upgrading. This is with 0 "Finish now" clicks to jack up the dilithium costs. This also doesn't take into account TP overflow that would slightly reduce costs I believe.)
Also the price increases like so:
Starting at Mk I
x2 to get to Mk II
x2 to Mk III
x2 IV
x2 V
x1.875 VI
x2 VII
x2 VIII
x2 IX
x1.5 X
x1.33333 XI
x1.25 XII
x1.33333 XIII
x2 XIV
x1.5 for rarity increase attempt once you cap at XIV
And then on top of that there's also a multiplier for item rarity, such as a Common being 1.0, an Uncommon being 1.2xCommon, a Rare being 1.4xCommon, etc. with some other freaky numbers involved for rep gear like 2.656xCommon for a Very Rare set piece.
Thpppwwwtttt ... It Failed ... bam bow ... Try again sucker ... which costs 50K or so Dil ... Each time ... unless you want to wait one and a half days to try again, and even if it succeeds, you still have to pay the 50K dil ... Or wait one and hlaf days before you can even use that nice new toy.
The timer and dilithium cost for skipping it is coming down "significantly" in a Tribble patch coming soon. http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=19319431#post19319431
Still won't be zero of course, and doesn't change the timer or skip cost in the R&D system, only for Upgrades.
The we have the Clickety Click Click, (after the hours of Clickety Click Click to create the components and kits)
SPEAKING of which! I ran some numbers on clicks and came up with 17,240 CLICKS to upgrade just 1 ship (my Galor, so your numbers will vary a bit depending on the starting Mk and Rarity of your individual gear) to full Epic gear, and that is a conservative number. I only used single clicks and drag+drop for item slotting when I could have used double clicks for crafting and multi-clicks for slotting. This is also with 0 "Finish now" clicks.
How did I arrive at this number?
1 mouse click to apply every tech upgrade (2,612)
Every Tech Upgrade requires 3 clicks to craft (2,612*3)
It takes 6 clicks to craft a stack of 5 rare R&D components ((5,224/5)*6)
(Note: The above numbers assume 0 crits during crafting, which is unrealistic. On the flipside, if you get insanely lucky and EVERY Rare R&D component and EVERY Tech Upgrade crits during the crafting phase, remove about 9,600 clicks. In actuality it will be somewhere between these two extremes.)
21 items need 1 click to slot + 4 clicks each to upgrade and finish from XII to XIV (5*21)
14 items need 6 clicks to start and finish their upgrades from Very Rare to Ultra Rare if we expect 2 fails and a success (14*6)
That one annoying Lobi console needs 13 clicks to slot and get from Rare to Ultra Rare if we expect 4 fails and 2 successes
21 items need 8 clicks to start and finish their upgrades to Epic if we assume 3 fails and 1 success
Every time an item is upgraded you have to re-slot your stacks of Tech Upgrades: 153 clicks ((6*21)+13+14)
This assumes the same assumptions above about number of failed upgrade attempts and such because it's based on the same ship gear calculations.
This is when using the Superior upgrade kits. God have mercy on your soul (and your index finger) if you use the Basic upgrade kits.
This does not take into account TP overflow which slightly reduces clicks.
This does not take into account any lucky crits during upgrades. On the one hand, a lucky crit will mean you won't have to risk additional failed upgrade attempts, which reduces the materials and clicks you need. On the other hand, by entering a higher rarity you need more materials for the next upgrade. I think that the former outweighs the latter though
This does not take into account crits from crafting Rare R&D Components or Superior Upgrades that give you multiple extras, reducing the number of times you need to run each crafting project.
This is with 0 "Finish now" clicks. Add a few hundred more if you plan to blaze through both the crafting and the upgrading.
This also doesn't take into account the fact that Upgrade tech only stacks up to 100 in your inventory, so there will be several times where your stack runs out and you have to re-slot a new stack in the UI. Add more clicks as needed.
This also doesn't take into account all of the other random intermediary and organizational clicks that will happen when you're juggling three or four different windows in order to craft all the stuff you need, unequip gear from the status screen, interact with gear and Upgrade items in the Inventory, and general interaction with the Upgrade window (aside from all the other Upgrade clicking). Add more clicks.
Have I ever mentioned how much I TRULY AND ABSOLUTELY LOATHE the mountains of inefficient clicking STO's UI requires? :P
Nitpicking is a time-honored tradition of science fiction. Asking your readers not to worry about the "little things" is like asking a dog not to sniff at people's crotches. If there's something that appears to violate natural laws, then you can expect someone's going to point it out. That's just the way things are.
Rather than repeat the whole thing, I'll just say ... Wow!, you are way more dedcated and methodical than me ...
My brain turned to a horrible viscous fluid after about 3 1/2 hours of clicking, so I lost count ...
I ponied up about 20Million EC for 1 x Purple VR Fabrication DoFF (for the components) and 1 x Purple VR Research Lab Assistant for the Upgrade Kits ...
My current Sci Crafting levle is maxed at 20 (because of previous Tech Kit Crafting) So all of my Component and Kit crafting is + 30 or around 75% Crit chance
I bought 10 x 1000 Zen Crafting Packs from the C-Store, then used a mule toon to mail them to my "crafter" on tribble ... Which, after maxing out "inbox" space ... 4 times,gave me enough VR Mats and 'Accelerators" to do the following ...
Upgrading the new Delta Rep Deflector, from Mk XII VR to get it to Mk XIV Epic ...
297 Superior Kits
57 Major Research Booster (2 x Rarity Upgrade points per click)
139 Minor Research Booster (1.5 x x Rarity Upgrade points per click)
68 Major Technical Booster (2 x TP per click)
33 Minor Technical Booster (1.5 x TP per click)
I'm too p****d off to actually do the sums, but I think they pretty much speak for themselves ...
edit: Forgot to add I did use the "finish now" on the Tecj Kits = 225 Dil each time or 66,825 Dil ... But I didn't feel like being logged into the game for 74 and 1/4 hours, waiting for them all to finish
So, along with your previous numbers, plus mine and many others ... The new Upgrade System = Monumental failure! ... A disaster of Biblical proportions! Pah ... It's so bad even JJ couldn't make more of a farce out of it!
I'm not normally one for saying this, but if this piece of **** goes live as is ... The game will die ...
@everyone above.
And apparently, all that clicking, according to some, will promote player to player interaction. What morons! Hell.... When I log in, I won't be surprised to see every player standing still like a bunch of borg inside their alcoves. At this point, we've gave in enough to Cryptic/PWE's "pay or grind" model for 4+ years. It's about time they gave into our demands and make us happy.
@everyone above.
And apparently, all that clicking, according to some, will promote player to player interaction. What morons! Hell.... When I log in, I won't be surprised to see every player standing still like a bunch of borg inside their alcoves.
Nitpicking is a time-honored tradition of science fiction. Asking your readers not to worry about the "little things" is like asking a dog not to sniff at people's crotches. If there's something that appears to violate natural laws, then you can expect someone's going to point it out. That's just the way things are.
I don't get why they had to make this system so darn complicated. Not that I can't understand it, it's just needless, to say the least... instead of having a "bucket system" where all our TP adds up in one collective per "school" (Beams, cannons, engineering, etc etc). As it stands right now, the new system has to keep track of every single item and the TP associated with it. That's A LOT for a system to keep track of, which, as a result, leaves a lot of room for error (KISS). So it would actually make more sense to have a "bucket system". But wait, that's flawed too. By breaking up all the gear into "schools" you, again, leave room for error. An example, universal consoles that actually are upgrade-able. So again, KISS. But here's the simple truth, the more simple this system is, the less money Cryptic/PWE makes. But wait! That's flawed too ! See, if they kept things simple, it wouldn't cost as much to make these systems. So, as a result, they would be saving money. Which is a negligible loss if any at all. So please Cryptic/PWE why? Just why do you lack so much logic and common sense?
The only pro to this system is the fact that I can upgrade my gear beyond a mk XIV equivalent. But whether it's worth it or not is another issue. An issue that NEEDS addressing.
The numbers I ran on taking my Galor to full XIV Gold would be roughly: 33,286,728 TP
2,612 Superior Tech Upgrade kits 2,807,900 (or, 15,600 Zen if the exchange rate is 180) 39,180,000 EC 5,224 Rare R&D Components 2,612 Very Rare R&D Materials
Ok so based on these numbers and I'm praying to god either you've got it completely wrong (Which from what I've seen you rarely are) or cryptic drops these numbers down drastically.
On my main Fed toon, with the 4 main ships I tend to stick with, out of a possible 15+.
Im looking at the following numbers
133,146,912 - Tp
10,448 - Super Tech Upgrade Kits
11,231,600 - Dilithium
156,720,000 - Energy credits
20,896 Rare R&D Components
10,445 Very Rare Materials
That's not factoring in the upgrades for the ground gear, the other toon on my account.
Has cryptic actually sat down and thought these numbers through? because it puts the these types of upgrades well outside the reach of your average joe. And with this sort of cost any that make it to the exchange are going to be astronomically priced, which again puts them well beyond the reach of a good portion of the player base. Its time cryptic got a hold of its self and sorted its S**t out. Because this is just out and out stupidity and greed. I see this being the final nail in the coffin for STO and rightly so.
Ok so based on these numbers and I'm praying to god either you've got it completely wrong (Which from what I've seen you rarely are) or cryptic drops these numbers down drastically.
On my main Fed toon, with the 4 main ships I tend to stick with, out of a possible 15+.
Im looking at the following numbers
133,146,912 - Tp
10,448 - Super Tech Upgrade Kits
11,231,600 - Dilithium
156,720,000 - Energy credits
20,896 Rare R&D Components
10,445 Very Rare Materials
That's not factoring in the upgrades for the ground gear, the other toon on my account.
Has cryptic actually sat down and thought these numbers through? because it puts the these types of upgrades well outside the reach of your average joe. And with this sort of cost any that make it to the exchange are going to be astronomically priced, which again puts them well beyond the reach of a good portion of the player base. Its time cryptic got a hold of its self and sorted its S**t out. Because this is just out and out stupidity and greed. I see this being the final nail in the coffin for STO and rightly so.
Did you factor in how much it would cost to upgrade the ships as well? Needless to say, I think we all are in agreement on this. If not, it won't hurt to have them dropped anyways. So, again, passive acceptance.
Did you factor in how much it would cost to upgrade the ships as well? Needless to say, I think we all are in agreement on this. If not, it won't hurt to have them dropped anyways. So, again, passive acceptance.
No I didn't factor in the cost of the ship upgrade's which 2 would be upgraded for free and 2 I would have to pay for. Well I for one hope the majority of the player base sticks together until cryptic does something about it. I'm trying really hard not to say "I done with this game" but they're not making it easy.
I just upgraded a Field Generator Mk XI (Blue quality from the crafting system prior to the crafting revamp). The Field Generator is a Science Console, but required an Engineering Upgrade Kit rather than a Science Upgrade Kit. If I recall correctly this console was originally an Engineering Console several years ago, so perhaps it is related to this.
No I didn't factor in the cost of the ship upgrade's which 2 would be upgraded for free and 2 I would have to pay for. Well I for one hope the majority of the player base sticks together until cryptic does something about it. I'm trying really hard not to say "I done with this game" but they're not making it easy.
I just upgraded a Field Generator Mk XI (Blue quality from the crafting system prior to the crafting revamp). The Field Generator is a Science Console, but required an Engineering Upgrade Kit rather than a Science Upgrade Kit. If I recall correctly this console was originally an Engineering Console several years ago, so perhaps it is related to this.
Well... join the club. Just more wood to add to the inferno.
No I didn't factor in the cost of the ship upgrade's which 2 would be upgraded for free and 2 I would have to pay for. Well I for one hope the majority of the player base sticks together until cryptic does something about it. I'm trying really hard not to say "I done with this game" but they're not making it easy.
If cryptic makes a bad system here you know what the impact will be on the population? People simply won't use it. Nothing apart from elite versions of PVE's is being balanced with upgraded gear in mind and if cryptic makes the system time/cost prohibitive all they've done is forced STO's audience to stick with advanced and normal...which is where we're at right now.
Don't default to the soapbox rally cry "or we'll walk out" to try finish an argument. Its the obvious grandstanding of opinion that undermines legitmate feedback because despite the core of your complaint it shows you're unreasonable (in taking a position which the situation will never call for at least for the bulk of the population.)
Now what should be done here? Well crpytic should dramatically reduce the cost of gear upgrades in every respect (its just about reasonable for upgrading one or two standard ground weapons to XIV, beyond that its laughable.)
If they don't, don't bother with it. Its their loss if they drop the ball with this one (through all the time and energy they wasted making this upgrade system), not ours.
====
Also, one more weapon that can't be upgraded: fleet quantum torpedos (Crit D I believe). They have the upgrade prompt but when you get to adding research bits its says they're already at their maximum spec.
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If cryptic makes a bad system here you know what the impact will be on the population? People simply won't use it. Nothing apart from elite versions of PVE's is being balanced with upgraded gear in mind and if cryptic makes the system time/cost prohibitive all they've done is forced STO's audience to stick with advanced and normal...which is where we're at right now.
Don't default to the soapbox rally cry "or we'll walk out" to try finish an argument. Its the obvious grandstanding of opinion that undermines legitmate feedback because despite the core of your complaint it shows you're unreasonable (in taking a position which the situation will never call for at least for the bulk of the population.)
Now what should be done here? Well crpytic should dramatically reduce the cost of gear upgrades in every respect (its just about reasonable for upgrading one or two standard ground weapons to XIV, beyond that its laughable.)
If they don't, don't bother with it. Its their loss if they drop the ball with this one (through all the time and energy they wasted making this upgrade system), not ours.
====
Also, one more weapon that can't be upgraded: fleet quantum torpedos (Crit D I believe). They have the upgrade prompt but when you get to adding research bits its says they're already at their maximum spec.
Although I realize you are in agreement with us, the first half of your statement implied argument on our views, in saying that "you're unreasonable". No, the facts stand. It's Cryptic/PWE that are unreasonable. By making the statement "or we walk" is simply us giving them a second chance. Now since when is a second chance unreasonable? We've all said the same thing, just because we stop saying it, doesn't mean it needs to keep being said. Sure, its possible to not use the new system and keep on keepin' on, but whats the point? It would just go back to being the same old boring grind it always is. Not to say that even WITH upgraded gear and ships that it wouldn't be that same way, but at least it might feel a little different. But I digress.
Overall, yes! The prices need to be reduced.
-END OF LINE-
The Jem'Hadar seems bugged and at the same time it doesn't upgrade as expected. 400 lobi (2 toons a long time ago) down the drain and for nothing.
More wood for the fire... anyone got marshmallows or hot dogs? Does this bug affect mk XI Jem'Hadar sets? Because I'm using the mk XI version on one of my characters
More wood for the fire... anyone got marshmallows or hot dogs? Does this bug affect mk XI Jem'Hadar sets? Because I'm using the mk XI version on one of my characters
So for the stealth detection,crew resistance, and weapons power bonus they gave the mk XII lobi stats to the mk XI and they don't scale anymore. They seemed to have screwed up the flight speed and turn rate, because the numbers are off and they don't scale. I don't even know about the set bonuses, I hope those aren't screwed up.
So for the stealth detection,crew resistance, and weapons power bonus they gave the mk XII lobi stats to the mk XI and they don't scale anymore. They seemed to have screwed up the flight speed and turn rate, because the numbers are off and they don't scale. I don't even know about the set bonuses, I hope those aren't screwed up.
So there's no point in upgrading the mk XII lobi (or mk XI) to mk XIV aside from aesthetics? Typical...
Don't default to the soapbox rally cry "or we'll walk out" to try finish an argument.
I'm not trying to resort to the old tired rhetoric of "We'll walk". I know that doesn't solve any thing in the long term. But cryptic doesn't make it easy either. There was wide spread opposition to the changes to the doffing system (lets not forget the problems that were caused with missions not completing) and the supposed "Improvements" to the UI, which again a lot of people didn't have a good thing to say about it.
But cryptic railroaded it through regardless, granted after a while they reworked it to a certain extent, by allowing us to minimize sections of it. But the issue with missions taking ages to turn in still remains. Now with around 2.5 weeks left until this lots goes live with DR, they have the perfect chance to do the right thing by the player base and run the numbers again and come back with something more reasonable.
But whilst I'm hoping and praying they'll take on board what people are saying on the over inflated cost of this upgrade system before players start leaving in droves. I've got a sneaking suspicion they wont based on the following quote
That's because we no longer include the forums, or players in general (outside of more controlled interview settings) to see the process, talk about what we're planning on doing, or what's up coming. Instead, by time we are ready to talk about a thing, it pretty much is set in stone.
And don't anyone kid yourself because people will need to try and make the gold quality items, partially due to poor advice from certain sites and the odd channel. Also if people want to remain competitive especially for the new level's of Elite STF's they'll have no choice but try to upgrade to at least MK XIII rares or better.
Nope. I know that'll be an unpopular answer, but it is what it is.
Keep in mind that you have the Mk XII version at this price, while everyone else must start from Mk XI in the Upgrade System, and improve it from there.
The Ground Set also included a Costume Unlock which will need to be purchased separately from now on. So call that a built-in bonus, if you like.
Well i never recived the costume unlock on one of my toons, got the full set (Space and Ground) on 2 toons, one got it..the other not....NOT COOL.....:mad: and now you say i need to buy it again....NOT Happening....Wallet is closed from now on...
I dont know if this has been answered but if I open a special equipment pack I got from a lockbox will that give me mkXII weapons that i then need to upgrade or give me straight up MkX III or Mk XIV (ingame des - open to gain a random level-appropriate weapon ?)
Comments
Aren't set pieces also a pain to upgrade? I thought those were a pain also.
Yeah and that bug too. :P
Yes. Reputation set pieces are the most expensive things to upgrade, which means the most clicking and misery involved. They cost 1.66 times as much to upgrade as a regular item. See my signature.
It will cost you the same amount for every item.
For example, 1 Very Rare beam array Mk XII needs 192,000 tech points to go from XII to XIV.
Thus, 2 beams need 384,000 to get them both from XII to XIV, 3 beams need 576,000, etcetera.
Also I priced out a rough estimate of how much it would cost to get all of the gear on my main ship from XII to XIV, and separately priced Ultra Rare, and Epic upgrades, all in the table available in my signature. I think I will skip Ultra Rare and Epic upgrades entirely if the prices don't come down. That's just too much for me to handle.
Aaaaaaand has anyone worked out a proper formula for including Tech Point overflow? It's probably very simple but math was never my favorite thing. :P
Joined January 2009
My god! This upgrading system is worse than crafting. At least with crafting, when I hit rank 15, assuming I have the mats and doffs, I can just keep pumping out top level gear at less cost than it would if I were rank 1. Yet the upgrade system can't be the same way? Like once you have enough TP for, lets say beams, I should be able to put any and all beams through at no additional cost. This would be dynamic in terms of how many total points. For example, I have X TP in beams which allows me to get to Mk XIV free, but if I add more TP, not only can I get to Mk XIV but I get a rarity upgrade as well. This, to me, makes more sense.
With that being said, what you suggest is a very nice idea and I would be very much in favor of having future TP upgrade costs reduced by a modifier/variable that takes into account how many TP you have spent on all of your past upgrades; similar to how your chances for better outcomes increase in R&D when you hit the higher levels. They'd never let you put gear through for free but a scaling discount up to a certain cap would be appreciated.
Joined January 2009
Just to say I approve of that table you've made, very nice
A few observations that I thought of overnight.
Either that, or there won't be enough on there to go round because many people are using them for their own upgrades, and as I see it the basics are a rip off, and if you can craft the mid range you may as well wait and use superiors.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that if these missions are truly as hard as the devs like to say they will be, then many of the runs will be formed in private queues, which could mean new channels set up that go back to the old times of test-gated entry.
What I'm trying to say with this, is that we're seeing this from the perspective of veterans who have the gear to get the best rewards, the best resources easier. Yet the new person will be hampered even further than we've allowed for as they still need to build their ships in the first place, therefore resources generally not as easily forthcoming therefore the veteran/new player gap increases.
I've obviously tried to keep those points brief but hopefully they make sense. I should probably also add that I'm taking it from the perspective of people who can't afford to pay to essentially play 'catch-up' by paying into the cool down skipping. This means they essentially have to wait to even begin catching up at all, as no-one in their right mind would pay to skip any of that.
Umm, actually not quite ... The price essentially doubles each time you go up a Mk ... That's why Epic Beams cost 360,000 EACH! ... yep that's roughly 28 Superior Tech Kits ... The ones that require PURPLE Mats and 2 x Blur Components to craft (you know the hardest to get, and most expensive on the exchange) and It's 150 Dil (4200 Dil) EVERY time you want to finish now on the Components, and 225 DIl (6300 Dil) and 15,000 (420,000 EC) on each Tech Kit .
The we have the Clickety Click Click, (after the hours of Clickety Click Click to create the components and kits) which is another 1075 Each time (30,100 Dil)
Or You 'could' save some of the crafting Dil costs above, by not hitting "finish now" on the components and kits, but then who wants to wait until STO Season 23 Launches before you have enough Kits?
So we have Approx: 40,600 Refined Dilithium (or 30,100 if you wait) and 420,000 EC ...
Not including ANY of the time or cost involved in getting the raw materials.
An I remind you once again, that due to the RNG ... Everything you just spent can get you ... NOTHING ...
Thpppwwwtttt ... It Failed ... bam bow ... Try again sucker ... which costs 50K or so Dil ... Each time ... unless you want to wait one and a half days to try again, and even if it succeeds, you still have to pay the 50K dil ... Or wait one and hlaf days before you can even use that nice new toy.
And all that for ONE item only ...
Now add it up for the other 20+ items on ONE ship, and the 5 you're wearing (and not counting if you swap gear for different BZ's)
Not to mention your poor BoFF's, who'll be popping like a cheerleader's cherry on Prom night if you don't give them useful gear as well ...
Now you know why such a brutal sounding disposition of the Dev who created this system ...
Of course ... You can just pay 1000 Zen for each item and you can buy the "Coin provided by 'Q'" that will guarantee a 1 hit upgrade to Epic ...
They do and you are right.
LOL, you are right as well!
The Dil turnover of my toonfam has been substantial the past years. But even if Id take into account that Cryptic/PWE intends us to keep busy for a year or so with this expansion I hope the so far presented figures from tribble (thx for testing em out peeps in this thread) get a cereous adjustment b4 hitting holodeck.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
He only asked how much to go from XII to XIV, which is a fixed cost, not how much to take it all the way to XIV Gold, so yes, 192,000 TP is accurate (and extrapolate resource costs based on that number as needed).
If we're talking XII to XIV Gold, then yes you're right the price is astronomical. The numbers I ran on taking my Galor to full XIV Gold would be roughly:
33,286,728 TP
2,612 Superior Tech Upgrade kits
2,807,900 (or, 15,600 Zen if the exchange rate is 180)
39,180,000 EC
5,224 Rare R&D Components
2,612 Very Rare R&D Materials
(This assumes 2 failed rarity upgrades from Very Rare to Ultra Rare and 3 failed rarity upgrades from Ultra Rare to Gold per item, which, arguably is a conservative number of failures. This also doesn't take into account crits during the crafting of the Rare R&D components or the Superior upgrades themselves, which would reduce the cost by some margin, nor does it take into account any lucky rarity crits while upgrading. This is with 0 "Finish now" clicks to jack up the dilithium costs. This also doesn't take into account TP overflow that would slightly reduce costs I believe.)
Also the price increases like so:
Starting at Mk I
x2 to get to Mk II
x2 to Mk III
x2 IV
x2 V
x1.875 VI
x2 VII
x2 VIII
x2 IX
x1.5 X
x1.33333 XI
x1.25 XII
x1.33333 XIII
x2 XIV
x1.5 for rarity increase attempt once you cap at XIV
And then on top of that there's also a multiplier for item rarity, such as a Common being 1.0, an Uncommon being 1.2xCommon, a Rare being 1.4xCommon, etc. with some other freaky numbers involved for rep gear like 2.656xCommon for a Very Rare set piece.
The timer and dilithium cost for skipping it is coming down "significantly" in a Tribble patch coming soon.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=19319431#post19319431
Still won't be zero of course, and doesn't change the timer or skip cost in the R&D system, only for Upgrades.
SPEAKING of which! I ran some numbers on clicks and came up with 17,240 CLICKS to upgrade just 1 ship (my Galor, so your numbers will vary a bit depending on the starting Mk and Rarity of your individual gear) to full Epic gear, and that is a conservative number. I only used single clicks and drag+drop for item slotting when I could have used double clicks for crafting and multi-clicks for slotting. This is also with 0 "Finish now" clicks.
How did I arrive at this number?
- 1 mouse click to apply every tech upgrade (2,612)
- Every Tech Upgrade requires 3 clicks to craft (2,612*3)
- It takes 6 clicks to craft a stack of 5 rare R&D components ((5,224/5)*6)
- (Note: The above numbers assume 0 crits during crafting, which is unrealistic. On the flipside, if you get insanely lucky and EVERY Rare R&D component and EVERY Tech Upgrade crits during the crafting phase, remove about 9,600 clicks. In actuality it will be somewhere between these two extremes.)
- 21 items need 1 click to slot + 4 clicks each to upgrade and finish from XII to XIV (5*21)
- 14 items need 6 clicks to start and finish their upgrades from Very Rare to Ultra Rare if we expect 2 fails and a success (14*6)
- That one annoying Lobi console needs 13 clicks to slot and get from Rare to Ultra Rare if we expect 4 fails and 2 successes
- 21 items need 8 clicks to start and finish their upgrades to Epic if we assume 3 fails and 1 success
- Every time an item is upgraded you have to re-slot your stacks of Tech Upgrades: 153 clicks ((6*21)+13+14)
This assumes the same assumptions above about number of failed upgrade attempts and such because it's based on the same ship gear calculations.This is when using the Superior upgrade kits. God have mercy on your soul (and your index finger) if you use the Basic upgrade kits.
This does not take into account TP overflow which slightly reduces clicks.
This does not take into account any lucky crits during upgrades. On the one hand, a lucky crit will mean you won't have to risk additional failed upgrade attempts, which reduces the materials and clicks you need. On the other hand, by entering a higher rarity you need more materials for the next upgrade. I think that the former outweighs the latter though
This does not take into account crits from crafting Rare R&D Components or Superior Upgrades that give you multiple extras, reducing the number of times you need to run each crafting project.
This is with 0 "Finish now" clicks. Add a few hundred more if you plan to blaze through both the crafting and the upgrading.
This also doesn't take into account the fact that Upgrade tech only stacks up to 100 in your inventory, so there will be several times where your stack runs out and you have to re-slot a new stack in the UI. Add more clicks as needed.
This also doesn't take into account all of the other random intermediary and organizational clicks that will happen when you're juggling three or four different windows in order to craft all the stuff you need, unequip gear from the status screen, interact with gear and Upgrade items in the Inventory, and general interaction with the Upgrade window (aside from all the other Upgrade clicking). Add more clicks.
Have I ever mentioned how much I TRULY AND ABSOLUTELY LOATHE the mountains of inefficient clicking STO's UI requires? :P
Joined January 2009
My brain turned to a horrible viscous fluid after about 3 1/2 hours of clicking, so I lost count ...
I ponied up about 20Million EC for 1 x Purple VR Fabrication DoFF (for the components) and 1 x Purple VR Research Lab Assistant for the Upgrade Kits ...
My current Sci Crafting levle is maxed at 20 (because of previous Tech Kit Crafting) So all of my Component and Kit crafting is + 30 or around 75% Crit chance
I bought 10 x 1000 Zen Crafting Packs from the C-Store, then used a mule toon to mail them to my "crafter" on tribble ... Which, after maxing out "inbox" space ... 4 times,gave me enough VR Mats and 'Accelerators" to do the following ...
Upgrading the new Delta Rep Deflector, from Mk XII VR to get it to Mk XIV Epic ...
297 Superior Kits
57 Major Research Booster (2 x Rarity Upgrade points per click)
139 Minor Research Booster (1.5 x x Rarity Upgrade points per click)
68 Major Technical Booster (2 x TP per click)
33 Minor Technical Booster (1.5 x TP per click)
I'm too p****d off to actually do the sums, but I think they pretty much speak for themselves ...
edit: Forgot to add I did use the "finish now" on the Tecj Kits = 225 Dil each time or 66,825 Dil ... But I didn't feel like being logged into the game for 74 and 1/4 hours, waiting for them all to finish
So, along with your previous numbers, plus mine and many others ... The new Upgrade System = Monumental failure! ... A disaster of Biblical proportions! Pah ... It's so bad even JJ couldn't make more of a farce out of it!
I'm not normally one for saying this, but if this piece of **** goes live as is ... The game will die ...
And apparently, all that clicking, according to some, will promote player to player interaction. What morons! Hell.... When I log in, I won't be surprised to see every player standing still like a bunch of borg inside their alcoves. At this point, we've gave in enough to Cryptic/PWE's "pay or grind" model for 4+ years. It's about time they gave into our demands and make us happy.
It's 8:30AM and I haven't gone to sleep yet! BRB, sleeping until 3.
NO TIME FOR TALKING. MUST CLICK MORE.
Joined January 2009
HA! Maybe that's the way to turn the tide.... satire.
The only pro to this system is the fact that I can upgrade my gear beyond a mk XIV equivalent. But whether it's worth it or not is another issue. An issue that NEEDS addressing.
Ok so based on these numbers and I'm praying to god either you've got it completely wrong (Which from what I've seen you rarely are) or cryptic drops these numbers down drastically.
On my main Fed toon, with the 4 main ships I tend to stick with, out of a possible 15+.
Im looking at the following numbers
133,146,912 - Tp
10,448 - Super Tech Upgrade Kits
11,231,600 - Dilithium
156,720,000 - Energy credits
20,896 Rare R&D Components
10,445 Very Rare Materials
That's not factoring in the upgrades for the ground gear, the other toon on my account.
Has cryptic actually sat down and thought these numbers through? because it puts the these types of upgrades well outside the reach of your average joe. And with this sort of cost any that make it to the exchange are going to be astronomically priced, which again puts them well beyond the reach of a good portion of the player base. Its time cryptic got a hold of its self and sorted its S**t out. Because this is just out and out stupidity and greed. I see this being the final nail in the coffin for STO and rightly so.
No I didn't factor in the cost of the ship upgrade's which 2 would be upgraded for free and 2 I would have to pay for. Well I for one hope the majority of the player base sticks together until cryptic does something about it. I'm trying really hard not to say "I done with this game" but they're not making it easy.
Well... join the club. Just more wood to add to the inferno.
If cryptic makes a bad system here you know what the impact will be on the population? People simply won't use it. Nothing apart from elite versions of PVE's is being balanced with upgraded gear in mind and if cryptic makes the system time/cost prohibitive all they've done is forced STO's audience to stick with advanced and normal...which is where we're at right now.
Don't default to the soapbox rally cry "or we'll walk out" to try finish an argument. Its the obvious grandstanding of opinion that undermines legitmate feedback because despite the core of your complaint it shows you're unreasonable (in taking a position which the situation will never call for at least for the bulk of the population.)
Now what should be done here? Well crpytic should dramatically reduce the cost of gear upgrades in every respect (its just about reasonable for upgrading one or two standard ground weapons to XIV, beyond that its laughable.)
If they don't, don't bother with it. Its their loss if they drop the ball with this one (through all the time and energy they wasted making this upgrade system), not ours.
====
Also, one more weapon that can't be upgraded: fleet quantum torpedos (Crit D I believe). They have the upgrade prompt but when you get to adding research bits its says they're already at their maximum spec.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Overall, yes! The prices need to be reduced.
-END OF LINE-
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1229161
The Jem'Hadar seems bugged and at the same time it doesn't upgrade as expected. 400 lobi (2 toons a long time ago) down the drain and for nothing.
More wood for the fire... anyone got marshmallows or hot dogs? Does this bug affect mk XI Jem'Hadar sets? Because I'm using the mk XI version on one of my characters
So for the stealth detection,crew resistance, and weapons power bonus they gave the mk XII lobi stats to the mk XI and they don't scale anymore. They seemed to have screwed up the flight speed and turn rate, because the numbers are off and they don't scale. I don't even know about the set bonuses, I hope those aren't screwed up.
So there's no point in upgrading the mk XII lobi (or mk XI) to mk XIV aside from aesthetics? Typical...
I'm not trying to resort to the old tired rhetoric of "We'll walk". I know that doesn't solve any thing in the long term. But cryptic doesn't make it easy either. There was wide spread opposition to the changes to the doffing system (lets not forget the problems that were caused with missions not completing) and the supposed "Improvements" to the UI, which again a lot of people didn't have a good thing to say about it.
But cryptic railroaded it through regardless, granted after a while they reworked it to a certain extent, by allowing us to minimize sections of it. But the issue with missions taking ages to turn in still remains. Now with around 2.5 weeks left until this lots goes live with DR, they have the perfect chance to do the right thing by the player base and run the numbers again and come back with something more reasonable.
But whilst I'm hoping and praying they'll take on board what people are saying on the over inflated cost of this upgrade system before players start leaving in droves. I've got a sneaking suspicion they wont based on the following quote
And don't anyone kid yourself because people will need to try and make the gold quality items, partially due to poor advice from certain sites and the odd channel. Also if people want to remain competitive especially for the new level's of Elite STF's they'll have no choice but try to upgrade to at least MK XIII rares or better.
Well i never recived the costume unlock on one of my toons, got the full set (Space and Ground) on 2 toons, one got it..the other not....NOT COOL.....:mad: and now you say i need to buy it again....NOT Happening....Wallet is closed from now on...
cheers guys