I do yes, and yes I did add that cost in for both an optimistic and pessimistic ship upgrade cost, it gets pretty insane. What I don't get is how newer players could possibly be competitive with us veterans. Because starting from scratch with this system must seem pretty daunting.
From the perspective of a new player seeing the Delta Rising trailer: "oooo!... pew pew... zap zap *throws money at screen*" Or at least that's what Cryptic/PWE are hoping for. But they have to realize that will not compensate for the loss in veterans. Slowly but surely our experience will be more and more outdated and useless. And they want this for that exact reason. That way it won't seem as daunting as it actually is. Plus if we leave, where's the competition then? Their only competition will be other new players and high rollers who stayed around because they could afford to stay top dog after the expansion (not saying i'm top dog mind you). This is NOT how you run a game. You, or anyone else, might think I'm just shooting off my mouth but I'm not. My passion for gaming runs deep. So deep that I am seeking it out as my career and have already began classes to achieve just that. But looking at it objectively, I want no part of the gaming industry if its just filled with businessmen who don't give to [REDACTED]s about the players. Being a player, I hope to make a difference one day.
I spent a considerable amount of Friday night and most of Saturday with this system. Seeing what works, what doesn't. Everything SEEMS to work as intended...
And the system sucks.
Let me put it another way: I ran an experiment yesterday, almost as soon as I hit TRIBBLE. I crafted a purple Mk II beam array, and endeavored to see how many blue upgrade kits (I couldn't make Purple, I'd run out of the needed Radiogenic Particles the day before - had 12, got me 30 kits and one Fleet-quality Mk XIV Voth AP) would be needed to get it... first to Mk XIV, then to Gold quality. So it's STARTING as a purple item. It takes 1 kit to get the item to Mk VI. One more got it to Mk VIII. After that it started getting greater. Two, then three... then five or six... until ultimately I'd spent 63 Kits getting it to Mk XIV.
I then spent 225 more to get it to Fleet-quality (Ultra-rare).
I then spent 30 more getting it to gold.
I reran the experiment. This time, it got to Fleet-grade before hitting Mk XIV... and took 300 more Kits to get Gold.
Finally, my last experiment. I made four more Mk II beams... and 902 Upgrade Kits. It took over an hour to make them all, even using the "Finish Now" and abusing the Dilithium Grant on Drozana. I decided I was going to kit my T5-U Fleet Gal-X in Mk XIV Fleet-or-better AP beams - 6 in all, since I was still using the Neutronic Torpedo and the KCB. So I crafted up 4 more Mk II beams, and decided "To hell with it, let's upgrade the Consoles, too." So, 3 Blue Mk XI AP MagRegs and a Mk XII blue, plus four purple Mk II beams.
902 kits later, I have ONE Gold Beam, 3 more Fleet-grade beams, and four Mk XIV purple Consoles. And that's IT. It took... maybe 400 total to get everything to Mk XIV. The other 500 Kits ALL went into a grand total... of 9 Rarity Upgrades. Mind you, the total cost of APPLYING the Upgrade Kits now sat at 856,900 Dilithium. Plus the amount to rush the upgrades. I burned through four million Dilithium yesterday... and got moderately better gear.
This system is utter bull. It's an over-monetized mess. I know a guy... Played since open beta. Has a LTS, the Legacy Pack, the Ops Pack, just about every C-Store ship, damn near every Lobi ship, and a leadership role in a massive fleet. He's leaving the game because of this system because he's tired of the continuous application of the tenth Rule of Acquisition. People will argue "But Cryptic needs this to keep the game going." But they don't. Let's look at ALL of the other Dilithium sinks - and all of the things that cost ZEN.
Fleets - a massive dilithium sink that has been a pain for anyone not in a max-size fleet since the system launched. It values dilithium less than commodities bought for EC - at just one paltry Fleet Credit per dilithium. And it takes MILLIONS of dilithium.
Reps - Dilithium store costs are borderline excessive for Space weapons. Even ground gear is a bit pricey. The special requisitions are worse, costing a minimum of more than a day's refining limit to get. And this equipment is now the standard.
Crafting timers - Something that allows you to make use of the Crafting system at late-game in a reasonable length of time. Crafting offers gear of roughly the same power level as Reputation Dilithium Stores, but takes 3 times as long to get to. Unless you pay a million Dilithium per school. Literally. Geko said in PO 179 that we'll eventually get custom item mods... which will be more expensive (as if it isn't already), until which time you're stuck with a gamble.
Master Keys - Easily the most efficient way to convert Dilithium or ZEN into EC. Everyone buys and sells them. They run upwards of 2 million EC a pop on the Exchange. But someone has to pay Cryptic real money at some point to get them - be it buying the ZEN directly with cash, or buying ZEN someone else paid for using Dilithium. Ultimately, every Master Key is money in Cryptic's pocket before it's ever used.
Fleet Ship Modules - See Master Keys. These aren't as efficient a converter, but the task is the same. Each one is $5 in Cryptic's pocket, and EVERYONE wants Fleet Ships. They're also the only type of provisioning Fleets can't share - meaning you have to do the Fleet grind (see above) to get them.
C-Store Ships - the biggest sellers in the game, easily. Almost everyone flies one. If they don't, they're flying Mirror ships - which come from Lock Boxes ultimately, and therefore cost ZEN. Purchases tend to ebb and flow, but they never fully cease because there are so many, and so many of them are so powerful.
Lobi Ships - See Master Keys. Only during rare events is it possible to get Lobi without using Master Keys - and it takes several events to get something of any real value besides a console.
Crafting packs - substitutes for the paltry drop rates of purple Crafting Materials that, despite being pictured on the item and specified in the item title for Elite Material rewards, only drop about one time in ten. These packs are also the only source - outside the Xindi Lock Box - of Crafting Catalysts, which are in fairly high demand.
DOff packs and Roster Expansions - not as big of sellers, but many people buy lots of these when there's a promo on because of the ships.
The Delta Ops Pack - Currently on sale for $125 USD, for ships that won't even release for a month. Still a good deal, sure, but it IS still a money-maker - just as every individual ship will be when DR launches. This alone could keep Cryptic going for a while.
Monthly subscribers - They still exist and still pay a monthly tithe to Cryptic. They are few, but they are there.
Lifers - Arguably the best and worst subscription choice. It pays for itself after 13 months and gives access to all the Veteran rewards. Problem is, the ships are the only ones really worth it - solid hulls, if not about to win any beauty contests in the case of the Chimera. The Veteran Dilithium refiner would be the only other real draw... and the Fleet Refiner on the Dilithium Mine is better. In the time it takes to do one Veteran refining - 1,000 Dilithium and a pair of DOffs over 48 hours - the Fleet refiner can do 3 - one at the beginning for 5s with no DOffs, one in the middle, and one at the end, refining 1,500 in the time it takes the Veteran to refine 1,000.
While there is THEORETICALLY a max cap of 441,000 Dilithium someone can refine in a day - because you can have 49 characters, using the inventory refining, the Veteran refiner, and the Fleet refiner - it would take literally all day to get the dilithium ore on ALL of those alts and refine it. No one has 49 characters. No one is refining at max with them. Ultimately, if you want to do ANYTHING without taking months to do it, you have to pay Cryptic absurd amounts of money. Star Trek Online is making Perfect World more money than the game for which they are named. It has eclipsed their flagship title for profit. And yet, they continue to demand more and more money.
Cryptic Enough is enough. Youre making more money than at any time in your history. I understand that Dilithium prices are coming down in regards to Upgrade Kits. I join my retiring friend in quoting War!Verse Picard from Yesterdays Enterprise to state my opinion on the matter (a more aggressive reaction than mine, but fitting nonetheless): "Not good enough, damn it, not good enough!" This system does NOT need to be a Dilithium sink. Crafting on its own is already a big enough one. It does not need a Dilithium price tag. So, I have two pieces of feedback for this system:
1: Please, please, PLEASE, add Kits that give Rarity Points. That is the biggest pitfall of the system that the Tech Point kits have a chance to give you a chance to get a Rarity Upgrade. Using 300 Tech Kits to get a Rarity Upgrade is absurd. Give us a Kit that gives hell, even a 10% Rarity chance when you use it. The system desperately needs such.
2: Remove the Dilithium cost from Tech kits. Stick it on Rarity kits if you implement those, but PLEASE keep it off Tech Kits. Players are going to wind up using 30-40 of them, basically doubling the cost of the item, for an upgrade that is moderate at best. Make it an EC cost. Hell, make it a 100,000 EC cost. Just please, for the love of God, do NOT leave it a Dilithium cost.
What you have here ladies and gentlemen is something that's called TRUTH and COMMON SENSE. Both are things that seem to be lacking in our superiors we call Cryptic/PWE. Hopefully, one day, they can come off their high horses paid for by our money and realize the truth of this game and where their common sense has led them.
All I have to say about the new system is I like what I see. I upgraded my fleet antiproton beam banks MK XII to MK XIV and they went up in damage. MK XII (319) and MK XIV (396). I couldn't claim my second set of beam banks but I figure it is a glitch. Looking forward to having this is to play with next month.
Fleet Admiral of the U.S.S. ATTILA KHAN-CDA (NX-921911).
All I have to say about the new system is I like what I see. I upgraded my fleet antiproton beam banks MK XII to MK XIV and they went up in damage. MK XII (319) and MK XIV (396). I couldn't claim my second set of beam banks but I figure it is a glitch. Looking forward to having this is to play with next month.
Did you expect it NOT to have more damage? That alone isnt enough to be happy. Maybe for you, but, in your case. Passive acceptance please.
All I have to say about the new system is I like what I see. I upgraded my fleet antiproton beam banks MK XII to MK XIV and they went up in damage. MK XII (319) and MK XIV (396). I couldn't claim my second set of beam banks but I figure it is a glitch. Looking forward to having this is to play with next month.
Posts like this make me honestly think that PWE pays people to troll actual testers and players with legitimate complaints and objections.
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Looking for a new fleet? Drop by the in-game chat channel, "tenforwardforum", and say hi to the members of A Fleet Called Ten Forward (Fed) and The Orion Pirates (KDF). If you already have a fleet you are happy with, please feel free to drop by our chat channel if you are looking for a friendly bunch of helpful people to socialize with.
From the perspective of a new player seeing the Delta Rising trailer: "oooo!... pew pew... zap zap *throws money at screen*" Or at least that's what Cryptic/PWE are hoping for. But they have to realize that will not compensate for the loss in veterans. Slowly but surely our experience will be more and more outdated and useless. And they want this for that exact reason. That way it won't seem as daunting as it actually is. Plus if we leave, where's the competition then? Their only competition will be other new players and high rollers who stayed around because they could afford to stay top dog after the expansion (not saying i'm top dog mind you). This is NOT how you run a game. You, or anyone else, might think I'm just shooting off my mouth but I'm not. My passion for gaming runs deep. So deep that I am seeking it out as my career and have already began classes to achieve just that. But looking at it objectively, I want no part of the gaming industry if its just filled with businessmen who don't give to [REDACTED]s about the players. Being a player, I hope to make a difference one day.
I agree with everything you are saying, and that goes for everyone else who realises what is going on. We had this same argument when it came to the initial crafting system, that charging dilithium to progress faster was ludicrous.
I remember someone saying that we'd come to a point where a Pandora's Box was being opened and it wasn't going to be pretty, and I only wish I could find the quote because that basically sums up how I feel about this.
At the end of the day, the amount of real-life currency that would have to be spent to keep this going in any reasonable manner, either spending to upgrade with superiors or basic upgrade kits or any of the other progress-blocking things is only really affordable by well-to-do people, as no one is going to find grinding this from scratch over more than a year particularly fulfilling.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
I agree with everything you are saying, and that goes for everyone else who realises what is going on. We had this same argument when it came to the initial crafting system, that charging dilithium to progress faster was ludicrous.
I remember someone saying that we'd come to a point where a Pandora's Box was being opened and it wasn't going to be pretty, and I only wish I could find the quote because that basically sums up how I feel about this.
At the end of the day, the amount of real-life currency that would have to be spent to keep this going in any reasonable manner, either spending to upgrade with superiors or basic upgrade kits or any of the other progress-blocking things is only really affordable by well-to-do people, as no one is going to find grinding this from scratch over more than a year particularly fulfilling.
The sad thing is, people are so blind to the facts that they will just take it with a smile.
Its a matter of long term economics vs short term economics. Prior to F2P, Cryptic had a long term economics plan. A slow but steady revenue that will only increase with popularity. But now with F2P, its all about getting money now, in the short term. Micro-transaction here, exploitation there, etc etc. I couldnt afford a subscription to play this game but at least I know that my money would be well spent. But that's nowhere near what it is now.
I don't really like the Rarity upgrade process at the end. Having a rarity upgrade as a tiny 5% chance that is guaranteed to fail 99.99% of the time isn't fun. Having the rarity upgrade fail 5 or more times in a row is the antithesis of fun.
Right now a rarity upgrade attempt costs 1.5x the cost to upgrade from XIII to XIV. But if--excuse me when--it fails several times in a row the true cost is more like 4-9x the cost of upgrading from XIII to XIV.
So if I have a standard Ultra Rare beam array* Mk XIV that costs 144,000 TP to upgrade from XIII to XIV, then it that means the cost to attempt a rarity increase is 216,000 TP. If the upgrade does fail 5 times before succeeding on the 6th time that's a whopping 1,944,000 TP needed to go from UV to Gold.
Rough numbers say that this is (assuming you crafted the upgrades yourself): 163,400 dilithium to apply the upgrades + 2,280,000 EC to craft the upgrades +
crafting mats & components (and their EC cost if you bought rather than farmed them)
for one rarity upgrade on one weapon**, and that's using only Superior tech upgrades which require level 15 in an R&D school to craft (I'm not going to even try to predict what the going rate for these on the exchange will be for those that don't have level 15 or refuse to participate in R&D but I can guarantee it's not going to be 15,000 EC which means inflate the EC number above by another digit to 22mil. Also note that my above math doesn't take into account TP overflow but the difference would be negligible. And that's not to mention the cost of getting to XIV UR in the first place.
Honestly it's really not fun at all, even if you ignore the staggering cost of a Gold item, to have an upgrade fail repeatedly. Can't we just have a fixed cost on rarity upgrades (frankly 90,000 dilithium should be plenty for a Gold upgrade)? Mark Level upgrades are already a fixed cost; you get a guaranteed Mk level for X amount of TP. Why can't we get a guaranteed Rarity level after finishing XIV for Y amount of TP? What we have right now is a hidden cost system for rarity upgrades. If you only casually glance at the TP price to "attempt" a rarity increase it looks fairly reasonable on its face, "Hey 216,000 TP is about 18,000 dilithium, that's not so bad for Gold quality."
Of course I expect that if we had a guaranteed Rarity level for Y amount of TP then instead of being 1.5x the cost of an XIII to XIV upgrade, they would probably jack the price of a rarity upgrade up to 3x or 4x the cost*** of XIII to XIV and that would scare away the aforementioned 'casual glancers' that don't pay attention to the hidden cost system that will blindly throw more money at the system, because then the true cost of a rarity increase would be laid bare right up front for them to see; info they would normally not calculate.
And of course, none of the above includes any "Skip now" dilithium costs during the R&D or Upgrade process for the impatient ones out there. Of course, the time gating required for crafting literally hundreds of upgrades, plus the time gating on the upgrade process itself is designed to 'encourage' clicking on that Skip button. Who wants to wait weeks for upgrades?
*or standard deflector, shield, engine, warp/singularity core. (Including Fleet gear and Lockbox/Reputation store weapons [not reputation set weapons])
**For space reputation gear, multiply these numbers by 1.66
***This is effectively how the system works right now already, it's just that the system is designed to obfuscate the fact that the true cost is several times more than an XIII to XIV upgrade. When you take into account the RNG's fail/success ratio it's probably tuned to average out to a rough X cost for a rarity upgrade that is some multiple of the XIII to XIV upgrade.
Nitpicking is a time-honored tradition of science fiction. Asking your readers not to worry about the "little things" is like asking a dog not to sniff at people's crotches. If there's something that appears to violate natural laws, then you can expect someone's going to point it out. That's just the way things are.
Well, crafting will save you dilithium and max your crafting in a hurry unless they lengthen the cooldown on crafting tech upgrades or reduce the XP.
And they will most likely sell guaranteed quality upgrades for around $10, going off Neverwinter.
It seems like this is a system that will separate people who plan poorly from their wallets. It won't be the end of the world for smarter players who play it "properly" as you can mitigate more than 75% of the cost by waiting.
I do expect outrage and quitting. I think the basic system is workable but it needs more frustration vents. Maybe...
1. Get rid of the timer and reduce dilithium cost for just doing a pure quality upgrade attempt. The timer is okay when upgrading between marks but doesn't really do anything but frustrate when attempting to upgrade the quality of Mk XIV gear.
2. Issue one guaranteed upgrade per month to gold players as a new gold perk.
3. Have quality upgrade accelerators of around 5% drop from Elite STFs.
4. Attach tech upgrades to mission replay as an optional reward. 5 tech upgrades per replay? With a bonus weekend where that reward doubles.
5. Follow the NW example with Coalescent Wards on the C-Store. These guarantee quality upgrade.
Now... Because we have 46+ upgradeable gear slots versus a much smaller number in NW, I think the sensible thing to do there would be to offer bundles with significant bulk discounts.
1 CW-type item for 1k ZEN. 5 for 2.5k ZEN. 15 for 5000 ZEN. 50 and some special bonuses like a hull texture (epic orange nacelles?), title, costume, etc. for 10,000 ZEN.
Neverwinter has a few ways to get Coalescent Wards. I think it would make sense to have STO offer them as a possible reward from ESTFs, possibly as an added Gold perk (or a fixed number as a new Vet perk -- especially as some vet rewards have become moot), and REALLY (I can't overemphasize this) offer bulk pricing because we've got 46 gear slots we're trying to upgrade.
I don't really like the Rarity upgrade process at the end. Having a rarity upgrade as a tiny 5% chance that is guaranteed to fail 99.99% of the time isn't fun. Having the rarity upgrade fail 5 or more times in a row is the antithesis of fun.
Right now a rarity upgrade attempt costs 1.5x the cost to upgrade from XIII to XIV. But if--excuse me when--it fails several times in a row the true cost is more like 4-9x the cost of upgrading from XIII to XIV.
So if I have a standard Ultra Rare beam array* Mk XIV that costs 144,000 TP to upgrade from XIII to XIV, then it that means the cost to attempt a rarity increase is 216,000 TP. If the upgrade does fail 5 times before succeeding on the 6th time that's a whopping 1,944,000 TP needed to go from UV to Gold.
Rough numbers say that this is (assuming you crafted the upgrades yourself): 163,400 dilithium to apply the upgrades + 2,280,000 EC to craft the upgrades +
crafting mats & components (and their EC cost if you bought rather than farmed them)
for one rarity upgrade on one weapon**, and that's using only Superior tech upgrades which require level 15 in an R&D school to craft (I'm not going to even try to predict what the going rate for these on the exchange will be for those that don't have level 15 or refuse to participate in R&D but I can guarantee it's not going to be 15,000 EC which means inflate the EC number above by another digit to 22mil. Also note that my above math doesn't take into account TP overflow but the difference would be negligible. And that's not to mention the cost of getting to XIV UR in the first place.
Honestly it's really not fun at all, even if you ignore the staggering cost of a Gold item, to have an upgrade fail repeatedly. Can't we just have a fixed cost on rarity upgrades (frankly 90,000 dilithium should be plenty for a Gold upgrade)? Mark Level upgrades are already a fixed cost; you get a guaranteed Mk level for X amount of TP. Why can't we get a guaranteed Rarity level after finishing XIV for Y amount of TP? What we have right now is a hidden cost system for rarity upgrades. If you only casually glance at the TP price to "attempt" a rarity increase it looks fairly reasonable on its face, "Hey 216,000 TP is about 18,000 dilithium, that's not so bad for Gold quality."
Of course I expect that if we had a guaranteed Rarity level for Y amount of TP then instead of being 1.5x the cost of an XIII to XIV upgrade, they would probably jack the price of a rarity upgrade up to 3x or 4x the cost*** of XIII to XIV and that would scare away the aforementioned 'casual glancers' that don't pay attention to the hidden cost system that will blindly throw more money at the system, because then the true cost of a rarity increase would be laid bare right up front for them to see; info they would normally not calculate.
And of course, none of the above includes any "Skip now" dilithium costs during the R&D or Upgrade process for the impatient ones out there. Of course, the time gating required for crafting literally hundreds of upgrades, plus the time gating on the upgrade process itself is designed to 'encourage' clicking on that Skip button. Who wants to wait weeks for upgrades?
*or standard deflector, shield, engine, warp/singularity core. (Including Fleet gear and Lockbox/Reputation store weapons [not reputation set weapons])
**For space reputation gear, multiply these numbers by 1.66
***This is effectively how the system works right now already, it's just that the system is designed to obfuscate the fact that the true cost is several times more than an XIII to XIV upgrade. When you take into account the RNG's fail/success ratio it's probably tuned to average out to a rough X cost for a rarity upgrade that is some multiple of the XIII to XIV upgrade.
Getting to gold should be difficult. you are getting "Epic" gear after all. The bigger issue here is the cost overall. Not just to get to gold. If anything, that's where the resource (time, EC, and dil) sink, if any, should be.
Well, crafting will save you dilithium and max your crafting in a hurry unless they lengthen the cooldown on crafting tech upgrades or reduce the XP.
And they will most likely sell guaranteed quality upgrades for around $10, going off Neverwinter.
It seems like this is a system that will separate people who plan poorly from their wallets. It won't be the end of the world for smarter players who play it "properly" as you can mitigate more than 75% of the cost by waiting.
I do expect outrage and quitting. I think the basic system is workable but it needs more frustration vents. Maybe...
1. Get rid of the timer and reduce dilithium cost for just doing a pure quality upgrade attempt. The timer is okay when upgrading between marks but doesn't really do anything but frustrate when attempting to upgrade the quality of Mk XIV gear.
2. Issue one guaranteed upgrade per month to gold players as a new gold perk.
3. Have quality upgrade accelerators of around 5% drop from Elite STFs.
4. Attach tech upgrades to mission replay as an optional reward. 5 tech upgrades per replay? With a bonus weekend where that reward doubles.
5. Follow the NW example with Coalescent Wards on the C-Store. These guarantee quality upgrade.
Now... Because we have 46+ upgradeable gear slots versus a much smaller number in NW, I think the sensible thing to do there would be to offer bundles with significant bulk discounts.
1 CW-type item for 1k ZEN. 5 for 2.5k ZEN. 15 for 5000 ZEN. 50 and some special bonuses like a hull texture (epic orange nacelles?), title, costume, etc. for 10,000 ZEN.
Neverwinter has a few ways to get Coalescent Wards. I think it would make sense to have STO offer them as a possible reward from ESTFs, possibly as an added Gold perk (or a fixed number as a new Vet perk -- especially as some vet rewards have become moot), and REALLY (I can't overemphasize this) offer bulk pricing because we've got 46 gear slots we're trying to upgrade.
I realy like the idea of having visuals for Gold and Lifetimers. Epic orange nacelles sound awesome! I WANT!!!
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Looking for a new fleet? Drop by the in-game chat channel, "tenforwardforum", and say hi to the members of A Fleet Called Ten Forward (Fed) and The Orion Pirates (KDF). If you already have a fleet you are happy with, please feel free to drop by our chat channel if you are looking for a friendly bunch of helpful people to socialize with.
Well, crafting will save you dilithium and max your crafting in a hurry unless they lengthen the cooldown on crafting tech upgrades or reduce the XP.
And they will most likely sell guaranteed quality upgrades for around $10, going off Neverwinter.
It seems like this is a system that will separate people who plan poorly from their wallets. It won't be the end of the world for smarter players who play it "properly" as you can mitigate more than 75% of the cost by waiting.
I do expect outrage and quitting. I think the basic system is workable but it needs more frustration vents. Maybe...
1. Get rid of the timer and reduce dilithium cost for just doing a pure quality upgrade attempt. The timer is okay when upgrading between marks but doesn't really do anything but frustrate when attempting to upgrade the quality of Mk XIV gear.
2. Issue one guaranteed upgrade per month to gold players as a new gold perk.
3. Have quality upgrade accelerators of around 5% drop from Elite STFs.
4. Attach tech upgrades to mission replay as an optional reward. 5 tech upgrades per replay? With a bonus weekend where that reward doubles.
5. Follow the NW example with Coalescent Wards on the C-Store. These guarantee quality upgrade.
Now... Because we have 46+ upgradeable gear slots versus a much smaller number in NW, I think the sensible thing to do there would be to offer bundles with significant bulk discounts.
1 CW-type item for 1k ZEN. 5 for 2.5k ZEN. 15 for 5000 ZEN. 50 and some special bonuses like a hull texture (epic orange nacelles?), title, costume, etc. for 10,000 ZEN.
Neverwinter has a few ways to get Coalescent Wards. I think it would make sense to have STO offer them as a possible reward from ESTFs, possibly as an added Gold perk (or a fixed number as a new Vet perk -- especially as some vet rewards have become moot), and REALLY (I can't overemphasize this) offer bulk pricing because we've got 46 gear slots we're trying to upgrade.
I spent a considerable amount of Friday night and most of Saturday with this system. Seeing what works, what doesn't. Everything SEEMS to work as intended...
And the system sucks.
Let me put it another way: I ran an experiment yesterday, almost as soon as I hit TRIBBLE. I crafted a purple Mk II beam array, and endeavored to see how many blue upgrade kits (I couldn't make Purple, I'd run out of the needed Radiogenic Particles the day before - had 12, got me 30 kits and one Fleet-quality Mk XIV Voth AP) would be needed to get it... first to Mk XIV, then to Gold quality. So it's STARTING as a purple item. It takes 1 kit to get the item to Mk VI. One more got it to Mk VIII. After that it started getting greater. Two, then three... then five or six... until ultimately I'd spent 63 Kits getting it to Mk XIV.
I then spent 225 more to get it to Fleet-quality (Ultra-rare).
I then spent 30 more getting it to gold.
I reran the experiment. This time, it got to Fleet-grade before hitting Mk XIV... and took 300 more Kits to get Gold.
Finally, my last experiment. I made four more Mk II beams... and 902 Upgrade Kits. It took over an hour to make them all, even using the "Finish Now" and abusing the Dilithium Grant on Drozana. I decided I was going to kit my T5-U Fleet Gal-X in Mk XIV Fleet-or-better AP beams - 6 in all, since I was still using the Neutronic Torpedo and the KCB. So I crafted up 4 more Mk II beams, and decided "To hell with it, let's upgrade the Consoles, too." So, 3 Blue Mk XI AP MagRegs and a Mk XII blue, plus four purple Mk II beams.
902 kits later, I have ONE Gold Beam, 3 more Fleet-grade beams, and four Mk XIV purple Consoles. And that's IT. It took... maybe 400 total to get everything to Mk XIV. The other 500 Kits ALL went into a grand total... of 9 Rarity Upgrades. Mind you, the total cost of APPLYING the Upgrade Kits now sat at 856,900 Dilithium. Plus the amount to rush the upgrades. I burned through four million Dilithium yesterday... and got moderately better gear.
This system is utter bull. It's an over-monetized mess. I know a guy... Played since open beta. Has a LTS, the Legacy Pack, the Ops Pack, just about every C-Store ship, damn near every Lobi ship, and a leadership role in a massive fleet. He's leaving the game because of this system because he's tired of the continuous application of the tenth Rule of Acquisition. People will argue "But Cryptic needs this to keep the game going." But they don't. Let's look at ALL of the other Dilithium sinks - and all of the things that cost ZEN.
Fleets - a massive dilithium sink that has been a pain for anyone not in a max-size fleet since the system launched. It values dilithium less than commodities bought for EC - at just one paltry Fleet Credit per dilithium. And it takes MILLIONS of dilithium.
Reps - Dilithium store costs are borderline excessive for Space weapons. Even ground gear is a bit pricey. The special requisitions are worse, costing a minimum of more than a day's refining limit to get. And this equipment is now the standard.
Crafting timers - Something that allows you to make use of the Crafting system at late-game in a reasonable length of time. Crafting offers gear of roughly the same power level as Reputation Dilithium Stores, but takes 3 times as long to get to. Unless you pay a million Dilithium per school. Literally. Geko said in PO 179 that we'll eventually get custom item mods... which will be more expensive (as if it isn't already), until which time you're stuck with a gamble.
Master Keys - Easily the most efficient way to convert Dilithium or ZEN into EC. Everyone buys and sells them. They run upwards of 2 million EC a pop on the Exchange. But someone has to pay Cryptic real money at some point to get them - be it buying the ZEN directly with cash, or buying ZEN someone else paid for using Dilithium. Ultimately, every Master Key is money in Cryptic's pocket before it's ever used.
Fleet Ship Modules - See Master Keys. These aren't as efficient a converter, but the task is the same. Each one is $5 in Cryptic's pocket, and EVERYONE wants Fleet Ships. They're also the only type of provisioning Fleets can't share - meaning you have to do the Fleet grind (see above) to get them.
C-Store Ships - the biggest sellers in the game, easily. Almost everyone flies one. If they don't, they're flying Mirror ships - which come from Lock Boxes ultimately, and therefore cost ZEN. Purchases tend to ebb and flow, but they never fully cease because there are so many, and so many of them are so powerful.
Lobi Ships - See Master Keys. Only during rare events is it possible to get Lobi without using Master Keys - and it takes several events to get something of any real value besides a console.
Crafting packs - substitutes for the paltry drop rates of purple Crafting Materials that, despite being pictured on the item and specified in the item title for Elite Material rewards, only drop about one time in ten. These packs are also the only source - outside the Xindi Lock Box - of Crafting Catalysts, which are in fairly high demand.
DOff packs and Roster Expansions - not as big of sellers, but many people buy lots of these when there's a promo on because of the ships.
The Delta Ops Pack - Currently on sale for $125 USD, for ships that won't even release for a month. Still a good deal, sure, but it IS still a money-maker - just as every individual ship will be when DR launches. This alone could keep Cryptic going for a while.
Monthly subscribers - They still exist and still pay a monthly tithe to Cryptic. They are few, but they are there.
Lifers - Arguably the best and worst subscription choice. It pays for itself after 13 months and gives access to all the Veteran rewards. Problem is, the ships are the only ones really worth it - solid hulls, if not about to win any beauty contests in the case of the Chimera. The Veteran Dilithium refiner would be the only other real draw... and the Fleet Refiner on the Dilithium Mine is better. In the time it takes to do one Veteran refining - 1,000 Dilithium and a pair of DOffs over 48 hours - the Fleet refiner can do 3 - one at the beginning for 5s with no DOffs, one in the middle, and one at the end, refining 1,500 in the time it takes the Veteran to refine 1,000.
While there is THEORETICALLY a max cap of 441,000 Dilithium someone can refine in a day - because you can have 49 characters, using the inventory refining, the Veteran refiner, and the Fleet refiner - it would take literally all day to get the dilithium ore on ALL of those alts and refine it. No one has 49 characters. No one is refining at max with them. Ultimately, if you want to do ANYTHING without taking months to do it, you have to pay Cryptic absurd amounts of money. Star Trek Online is making Perfect World more money… than the game for which they are named. It has eclipsed their flagship title for profit. And yet, they continue to demand more and more money.
Cryptic… Enough is enough. You’re making more money than at any time in your history. I understand that Dilithium prices are coming down in regards to Upgrade Kits. I join my retiring friend in quoting War!Verse Picard from Yesterday’s Enterprise to state my opinion on the matter (a more aggressive reaction than mine, but fitting nonetheless): "Not good enough, damn it, not good enough!" This system does NOT need to be a Dilithium sink. Crafting on its own is already a big enough one. It does not need a Dilithium price tag. So, I have two pieces of feedback for this system:
1: Please, please, PLEASE, add Kits that give Rarity Points. That is the biggest pitfall of the system – that the Tech Point kits have a chance… to give you a chance… to get a Rarity Upgrade. Using 300 Tech Kits to get a Rarity Upgrade is absurd. Give us a Kit that gives… hell, even a 10% Rarity chance when you use it. The system desperately needs such.
2: Remove the Dilithium cost from Tech kits. Stick it on Rarity kits if you implement those, but PLEASE keep it off Tech Kits. Players are going to wind up using 30-40 of them, basically doubling the cost of the item, for an upgrade that is moderate at best. Make it an EC cost. Hell, make it a 100,000 EC cost. Just please, for the love of God, do NOT leave it a Dilithium cost.
Read that over. Upgrading from mk XII to mk XIV should be the cheapest of all the upgrades. Its only fair. I paid for my Mk XII UR Quantum Torpedo. I expect to get my Mk XIV UR for only a slight charge. Because that is what I originally paid for. I didn't pay for gold so I don't expect to get it easy. To complain about just that as if that's the major issue makes no sense. Id say its almost like you feel entitled to more than what you originally paid but that's just an observation and means nothing. But Id be a hypocrite if I didn't say this. It wont hurt me in the least to have the price to go up in quality reduced so I have no objection directly to your issue. I'm just afraid of them making a half [REDACTED] compromise. And to address your beginning statements, anyone who's smart won't give these guys another cent, or the satisfaction that they are putting up with their [REDACTED].
Read that over. Upgrading from mk XII to mk XIV should be the cheapest of all the upgrades. Its only fair. I paid for my Mk XII UR Quantum Torpedo. I expect to get my Mk XIV UR for only a slight charge. Because that is what I originally paid for. I didn't pay for gold so I don't expect to get it easy. To complain about just that as if that's the major issue makes no sense. Id say its almost like you feel entitled to more than what you originally paid but that's just an observation and means nothing. But Id be a hypocrite if I didn't say this. It wont hurt me in the least to have the price to go up in quality reduced so I have no objection directly to your issue. I'm just afraid of them making a half [REDACTED] compromise. And to address your beginning statements, anyone who's smart won't give these guys another cent, or the satisfaction that they are putting up with their [REDACTED].
I don't see how you and I are in disagreement.
I think you're failing to factor in the C-Store side of upgrades, which is where the system will get easier. Tacking on CW-type items to the C-Store is the main suggestion. Tossing a few into gold perks or vet rewards would just be deal sweetening on Cryptic's part.
The big thing and I don't want this to get lost in lengthy requoted posts is that while this upgrade system may work fine for NW, NW doesn't have gold or lifetime subs and, most of all, reiterating:
In STO, the average player is potentially going to upgrade over 44-46+ pieces of gear per character.
For this reason. the system needs fine tuning from its NW iteration. And since I expect a lot of the softening of this system will be tied to C-Store consumables and that prices may not be finalized there, I REALLY think the feedback that may prove essential is for Cryptic to really remember that players may have 50 or more pieces of gear to upgrade per character.
In the average mission in the game, a player will be using46 potentially upgradeable, different pieces of gear in the course of a single mission.
Something has to give when it comes to upgrading all that under the current system. Could be C-Store item upgrade pricing. Could be upgrade costs. Could be dramatic reduction to ground upgrades. But something.
I think you're failing to factor in the C-Store side of upgrades, which is where the system will get easier. Tacking on CW-type items to the C-Store is the main suggestion. Tossing a few into gold perks or vet rewards would just be deal sweetening on Cryptic's part.
The big thing and I don't want this to get lost in lengthy requoted posts is that while this upgrade system may work fine for NW, NW doesn't have gold or lifetime subs and, most of all, reiterating:
In STO, the average player is potentially going to upgrade over 44-46+ pieces of gear per character.
For this reason. the system needs fine tuning from its NW iteration. And since I expect a lot of the softening of this system will be tied to C-Store consumables and that prices may not be finalized there, I REALLY think the feedback that may prove essential is for Cryptic to really remember that players may have 50 or more pieces of gear to upgrade per character.
In the average mission in the game, a player will be using46 potentially upgradeable, different pieces of gear in the course of a single mission.
Something has to give when it comes to upgrading all that under the current system. Could be C-Store item upgrade pricing. Could be upgrade costs. Could be dramatic reduction to ground upgrades. But something.
I'm not gonna pay for a c-store item to lighten the burden. That just plays into the "pay or grind" model I was talking about. What should give is the upgrade prices themselves. Across the board prices should be reduced by like 20-30%. I only say that because just "something" will not cut it. All they have been doing is "something". We need to be clear and concise, otherwise, like usual, we will get stuck with half [REDACTED] "compromises".
What you have here ladies and gentlemen is something that's called TRUTH and COMMON SENSE. Both are things that seem to be lacking in our superiors we call Cryptic/PWE. Hopefully, one day, they can come off their high horses paid for by our money and realize the truth of this game and where their common sense has led them.
Want some more common sense? EPIC rare is supposed to be hard to get. Cryptic doesn't want you to be able to bling your entire ship in a day.... some people will do it anyways, but they're going to have to pay a fortune to do so.
Heck, you said it yourself. But what way is there in STO that makes the acquisition of something difficult without a time-gate, giant cost, or both?
It's the same reason you can't get to T5 in a rep system in one day. And the same reason it costs a fortune in dil to max a crafting school in one day.
That being said, I do think the dil price is kinda high.
Want some more common sense? EPIC rare is supposed to be hard to get. Cryptic doesn't want you to be able to bling your entire ship in a day.... some people will do it anyways, but they're going to have to pay a fortune to do so.
Heck, you said it yourself. But what way is there in STO that makes the acquisition of something difficult without a time-gate, giant cost, or both?
It's the same reason you can't get to T5 in a rep system in one day. And the same reason it costs a fortune in dil to max a crafting school in one day.
That being said, I do think the dil price is kinda high.
There isn't a way in STO that doesn't require a time-gate, giant cost, or both to aquire something of value, but since we have already dealt and ground through that, why do it again?. Time-gate I can deal with. That completely makes sense to me. But giant cost? I leave myself asking: Why!? and then I think about
I spent a considerable amount of Friday night and most of Saturday with this system. Seeing what works, what doesn't. Everything SEEMS to work as intended...
And the system sucks.
Let me put it another way: I ran an experiment yesterday, almost as soon as I hit TRIBBLE. I crafted a purple Mk II beam array, and endeavored to see how many blue upgrade kits (I couldn't make Purple, I'd run out of the needed Radiogenic Particles the day before - had 12, got me 30 kits and one Fleet-quality Mk XIV Voth AP) would be needed to get it... first to Mk XIV, then to Gold quality. So it's STARTING as a purple item. It takes 1 kit to get the item to Mk VI. One more got it to Mk VIII. After that it started getting greater. Two, then three... then five or six... until ultimately I'd spent 63 Kits getting it to Mk XIV.
I then spent 225 more to get it to Fleet-quality (Ultra-rare).
I then spent 30 more getting it to gold.
I reran the experiment. This time, it got to Fleet-grade before hitting Mk XIV... and took 300 more Kits to get Gold.
Finally, my last experiment. I made four more Mk II beams... and 902 Upgrade Kits. It took over an hour to make them all, even using the "Finish Now" and abusing the Dilithium Grant on Drozana. I decided I was going to kit my T5-U Fleet Gal-X in Mk XIV Fleet-or-better AP beams - 6 in all, since I was still using the Neutronic Torpedo and the KCB. So I crafted up 4 more Mk II beams, and decided "To hell with it, let's upgrade the Consoles, too." So, 3 Blue Mk XI AP MagRegs and a Mk XII blue, plus four purple Mk II beams.
902 kits later, I have ONE Gold Beam, 3 more Fleet-grade beams, and four Mk XIV purple Consoles. And that's IT. It took... maybe 400 total to get everything to Mk XIV. The other 500 Kits ALL went into a grand total... of 9 Rarity Upgrades. Mind you, the total cost of APPLYING the Upgrade Kits now sat at 856,900 Dilithium. Plus the amount to rush the upgrades. I burned through four million Dilithium yesterday... and got moderately better gear.
This system is utter bull. It's an over-monetized mess. I know a guy... Played since open beta. Has a LTS, the Legacy Pack, the Ops Pack, just about every C-Store ship, damn near every Lobi ship, and a leadership role in a massive fleet. He's leaving the game because of this system because he's tired of the continuous application of the tenth Rule of Acquisition. People will argue "But Cryptic needs this to keep the game going." But they don't. Let's look at ALL of the other Dilithium sinks - and all of the things that cost ZEN.
Fleets - a massive dilithium sink that has been a pain for anyone not in a max-size fleet since the system launched. It values dilithium less than commodities bought for EC - at just one paltry Fleet Credit per dilithium. And it takes MILLIONS of dilithium.
Reps - Dilithium store costs are borderline excessive for Space weapons. Even ground gear is a bit pricey. The special requisitions are worse, costing a minimum of more than a day's refining limit to get. And this equipment is now the standard.
Crafting timers - Something that allows you to make use of the Crafting system at late-game in a reasonable length of time. Crafting offers gear of roughly the same power level as Reputation Dilithium Stores, but takes 3 times as long to get to. Unless you pay a million Dilithium per school. Literally. Geko said in PO 179 that we'll eventually get custom item mods... which will be more expensive (as if it isn't already), until which time you're stuck with a gamble.
Master Keys - Easily the most efficient way to convert Dilithium or ZEN into EC. Everyone buys and sells them. They run upwards of 2 million EC a pop on the Exchange. But someone has to pay Cryptic real money at some point to get them - be it buying the ZEN directly with cash, or buying ZEN someone else paid for using Dilithium. Ultimately, every Master Key is money in Cryptic's pocket before it's ever used.
Fleet Ship Modules - See Master Keys. These aren't as efficient a converter, but the task is the same. Each one is $5 in Cryptic's pocket, and EVERYONE wants Fleet Ships. They're also the only type of provisioning Fleets can't share - meaning you have to do the Fleet grind (see above) to get them.
C-Store Ships - the biggest sellers in the game, easily. Almost everyone flies one. If they don't, they're flying Mirror ships - which come from Lock Boxes ultimately, and therefore cost ZEN. Purchases tend to ebb and flow, but they never fully cease because there are so many, and so many of them are so powerful.
Lobi Ships - See Master Keys. Only during rare events is it possible to get Lobi without using Master Keys - and it takes several events to get something of any real value besides a console.
Crafting packs - substitutes for the paltry drop rates of purple Crafting Materials that, despite being pictured on the item and specified in the item title for Elite Material rewards, only drop about one time in ten. These packs are also the only source - outside the Xindi Lock Box - of Crafting Catalysts, which are in fairly high demand.
DOff packs and Roster Expansions - not as big of sellers, but many people buy lots of these when there's a promo on because of the ships.
The Delta Ops Pack - Currently on sale for $125 USD, for ships that won't even release for a month. Still a good deal, sure, but it IS still a money-maker - just as every individual ship will be when DR launches. This alone could keep Cryptic going for a while.
Monthly subscribers - They still exist and still pay a monthly tithe to Cryptic. They are few, but they are there.
Lifers - Arguably the best and worst subscription choice. It pays for itself after 13 months and gives access to all the Veteran rewards. Problem is, the ships are the only ones really worth it - solid hulls, if not about to win any beauty contests in the case of the Chimera. The Veteran Dilithium refiner would be the only other real draw... and the Fleet Refiner on the Dilithium Mine is better. In the time it takes to do one Veteran refining - 1,000 Dilithium and a pair of DOffs over 48 hours - the Fleet refiner can do 3 - one at the beginning for 5s with no DOffs, one in the middle, and one at the end, refining 1,500 in the time it takes the Veteran to refine 1,000.
While there is THEORETICALLY a max cap of 441,000 Dilithium someone can refine in a day - because you can have 49 characters, using the inventory refining, the Veteran refiner, and the Fleet refiner - it would take literally all day to get the dilithium ore on ALL of those alts and refine it. No one has 49 characters. No one is refining at max with them. Ultimately, if you want to do ANYTHING without taking months to do it, you have to pay Cryptic absurd amounts of money. Star Trek Online is making Perfect World more money… than the game for which they are named. It has eclipsed their flagship title for profit. And yet, they continue to demand more and more money.
Cryptic… Enough is enough. You’re making more money than at any time in your history. I understand that Dilithium prices are coming down in regards to Upgrade Kits. I join my retiring friend in quoting War!Verse Picard from Yesterday’s Enterprise to state my opinion on the matter (a more aggressive reaction than mine, but fitting nonetheless): "Not good enough, damn it, not good enough!" This system does NOT need to be a Dilithium sink. Crafting on its own is already a big enough one. It does not need a Dilithium price tag. So, I have two pieces of feedback for this system:
1: Please, please, PLEASE, add Kits that give Rarity Points. That is the biggest pitfall of the system – that the Tech Point kits have a chance… to give you a chance… to get a Rarity Upgrade. Using 300 Tech Kits to get a Rarity Upgrade is absurd. Give us a Kit that gives… hell, even a 10% Rarity chance when you use it. The system desperately needs such.
2: Remove the Dilithium cost from Tech kits. Stick it on Rarity kits if you implement those, but PLEASE keep it off Tech Kits. Players are going to wind up using 30-40 of them, basically doubling the cost of the item, for an upgrade that is moderate at best. Make it an EC cost. Hell, make it a 100,000 EC cost. Just please, for the love of God, do NOT leave it a Dilithium cost.
<--- Click me! But in all seriousness, I think we've made our point.
There isn't a way in STO that doesn't require a time-gate, giant cost, or both to aquire something of value, but since we have already dealt and ground through that, why do it again?. Time-gate I can deal with. That completely makes sense to me. But giant cost? I leave myself asking: Why!? and then I think about <--- Click me!
Dude. You're spamming all other feedback by re-posting that constantly. You can link to that post rather than re-post that wall of text. We've seen it. Anyone who hasn't read that isn't going to.
And I have no issues with "pay or grind" if I'm having fun. If I'm having fun, I'll drop money or invest effort and it's wired into me that it would be wrong not to.
I've dropped F2P games that were fun to play because I wanted to put money into their development and I didn't see an enjoyable way to spend.
Dude. You're spamming all other feedback by re-posting that constantly. You can link to that post rather than re-post that wall of text. We've seen it. Anyone who hasn't read that isn't going to.
And I have no issues with "pay or grind" if I'm having fun. If I'm having fun, I'll drop money or invest effort and it's wired into me that it would be wrong not to.
I've dropped F2P games that were fun to play because I wanted to put money into their development and I didn't see an enjoyable way to spend.
Well if that's how you feel. Passive acceptance... nuff said. And I didnt know I could link the post. thx for the tip. and its not spam if its relevant. Also, I didn't know 2 times (not including initial reply) counted as constantly . The only reason, I can think of, for your being upset is the fact that http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=19378601&postcount=426 (that makes 3 and I will post it no more) is 100% truth and you don't like it. But that is not relevant and I digress.
I actually bought 10 of the C-Store 1000Zen R&D packs, then copying over my "mule" toon repeatedly and mailing them around ...
The hours I spent click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, clicking to craft first the components for the kits, then the kits themselves, is another area that is in SERIOUS need of a revamp .. .First by having the option to create more than 5 at a time! For components it should be simply 1 click
Click "Craft" and If you have the materials, and the EC/Dil, then you should be able to just "click" once and done ... The current system of 3 different windows is totally flawed.
...
The C-Store packs on Tribble drop 1.5 and 2x TP boost Tokens and Rarity % boost Tokens, which are 'consumed' on each click BTW.
As a test I decided to upgrade my Mk XII Jem-H Deflector to Mk IV Epic.
Then we have once again click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, clicking! ... Bring over the "Fill" button from Neverwinter as well PLEASE.
Using the Superior Upgrade Kits, it took 427 of the Rarity Boosters and 538 TP Boosters to get there! ( Sorry, I got into such a "zone" with the brain liquifying, mouse clicking, that I actually lost count of how many Tech kits I used)
And even more important after spending Tens of Millions of Dilitium and I don't know how much EC, I didn't even get to choose what [Mods] I wanted!
It would have also taken somewhere along the lines of two and a half Years, If i had waited for each of the CD's on each of those steps to finish.
That's INSANE! And quite frankly TOTALLY unacceptable!
I actually bought 10 of the C-Store 1000Zen R&D packs, then copying over my "mule" toon repeatedly and mailing them around ...
The hours I spent click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, clicking to craft first the components for the kits, then the kits themselves, is another area that is in SERIOUS need of a revamp .. .First by having the option to create more than 5 at a time! For components it should be simply 1 click
Click "Craft" and If you have the materials, and the EC/Dil, then you should be able to just "click" once and done ... The current system of 3 different windows is totally flawed.
...
The C-Store packs on Tribble drop 1.5 and 2x TP boost Tokens and Rarity % boost Tokens, which are 'consumed' on each click BTW.
As a test I decided to upgrade my Mk XII Jem-H Deflector to Mk IV Epic.
Then we have once again click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, clicking! ... Bring over the "Fill" button from Neverwinter as well PLEASE.
Using the Superior Upgrade Kits, it took 427 of the Rarity Boosters and 538 TP Boosters to get there! ( Sorry, I got into such a "zone" with the brain liquifying, mouse clicking, that I actually lost count of how many Tech kits I used)
And even more important after spending Tens of Millions of Dilitium and I don't know how much EC, I didn't even get to choose what [Mods] I wanted!
It would have also taken somewhere along the lines of two and a half Years, If i had waited for each of the CD's on each of those steps to finish.
That's INSANE! And quite frankly TOTALLY unacceptable!
Yeah, all that clicking doesn't sound like fun does it? I actually didn't think of it that way. but it really is just a bunch of clicking. Sounds more tedious than worth doing as it stands right now.
I would like to know what upgrade kits affect what items. some universal consoles can be upgraded using the Beam upgrade kit so its confusing.
I noticed that as well and I'm not sure if it's intended because they're universal, or just a bug. Generally you need ground tech for ground items (except shields, which use the same shields tech as space shields), beams for beams, cannons for cannons, projectiles for projectiles, etc..
-edit- From the blog:
Just like R&D, Tech Upgrades come in groups related to the seven schools: Beam weapons and consoles, Cannon weapons and consoles, Engineering for engines and engineering consoles, Science for deflectors and science consoles, Shields for all ground and space shields, Ground Gear for ground weapons and armor, and Projectiles for space torpedoes and related consoles. When you craft a Tech Upgrade, youll make one based on your choice of school, usable for upgrading items of that type.
Nitpicking is a time-honored tradition of science fiction. Asking your readers not to worry about the "little things" is like asking a dog not to sniff at people's crotches. If there's something that appears to violate natural laws, then you can expect someone's going to point it out. That's just the way things are.
i think the weapons are suppose to be higher and harder to upgrade but yeah the difference is sort of high the weapons should be brought down quite a bit
i also think the dill price on the kits should be cut in half across the board because as is is just way to much dill as we still need the dil to buy the weapons int he first place then spend the dill to upgrade them
The other thing is whoever came up with the algorithm for the amount of TP required for each item, should be fired! ... Then have their hands cut off ... Then shot, repeatedly ... Then impaled!
And people thought I was bad. :eek: But suffice to say I agree with you
i think the weapons are suppose to be higher and harder to upgrade but yeah the difference is sort of high the weapons should be brought down quite a bit
i also think the dill price on the kits should be cut in half across the board because as is is just way to much dill as we still need the dil to buy the weapons int he first place then spend the dill to upgrade them
Aren't set pieces also a pain to upgrade? I thought those were a pain also.
Can someone please enlighten me? If I get enough TP to get my beam from Mk XII to Mk XIV and I choose to upgrade. Will my next beam only need 1 kit to upgrade to Mk XIV or will it just be as much of a waste of my time as the first one?
Aren't set pieces also a pain to upgrade? I thought those were a pain also.
Yes. Reputation set pieces are the most expensive things to upgrade, which means the most clicking and misery involved. They cost 1.66 times as much to upgrade as a regular item. See my signature.
Can someone please enlighten me? If I get enough TP to get my beam from Mk XII to Mk XIV and I choose to upgrade. Will my next beam only need 1 kit to upgrade to Mk XIV or will it just be as much of a waste of my time as the first one?
It will cost you the same amount for every item.
For example, 1 Very Rare beam array Mk XII needs 192,000 tech points to go from XII to XIV.
Thus, 2 beams need 384,000 to get them both from XII to XIV, 3 beams need 576,000, etcetera.
Also I priced out a rough estimate of how much it would cost to get all of the gear on my main ship from XII to XIV, and separately priced Ultra Rare, and Epic upgrades, all in the table available in my signature. I think I will skip Ultra Rare and Epic upgrades entirely if the prices don't come down. That's just too much for me to handle.
Aaaaaaand has anyone worked out a proper formula for including Tech Point overflow? It's probably very simple but math was never my favorite thing. :P
Nitpicking is a time-honored tradition of science fiction. Asking your readers not to worry about the "little things" is like asking a dog not to sniff at people's crotches. If there's something that appears to violate natural laws, then you can expect someone's going to point it out. That's just the way things are.
Yes. Reputation set pieces are the most expensive things to upgrade, which means the most clicking and misery involved. They cost 1.66 times as much to upgrade as a regular item. See my signature.
It will cost you the same amount for every item.
For example, 1 Very Rare beam array Mk XII needs 192,000 tech points to go from XII to XIV.
Thus, 2 beams need 384,000 to get them both from XII to XIV, 3 beams need 576,000, etcetera.
Also I priced out a rough estimate of how much it would cost to get all of the gear on my main ship from XII to XIV, and separately priced Ultra Rare, and Epic upgrades, all in the table available in my signature. I think I will skip Ultra Rare and Epic upgrades entirely if the prices don't come down. That's just too much for me to handle.
Aaaaaaand has anyone worked out a proper formula for including Tech Point overflow? It's probably very simple but math was never my favorite thing. :P
My god! This upgrading system is worse than crafting. At least with crafting, when I hit rank 15, assuming I have the mats and doffs, I can just keep pumping out top level gear at less cost than it would if I were rank 1. Yet the upgrade system can't be the same way? Like once you have enough TP for, lets say beams, I should be able to put any and all beams through at no additional cost. This would be dynamic in terms of how many total points. For example, I have X TP in beams which allows me to get to Mk XIV free, but if I add more TP, not only can I get to Mk XIV but I get a rarity upgrade as well. This, to me, makes more sense.
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From the perspective of a new player seeing the Delta Rising trailer: "oooo!... pew pew... zap zap *throws money at screen*" Or at least that's what Cryptic/PWE are hoping for. But they have to realize that will not compensate for the loss in veterans. Slowly but surely our experience will be more and more outdated and useless. And they want this for that exact reason. That way it won't seem as daunting as it actually is. Plus if we leave, where's the competition then? Their only competition will be other new players and high rollers who stayed around because they could afford to stay top dog after the expansion (not saying i'm top dog mind you). This is NOT how you run a game. You, or anyone else, might think I'm just shooting off my mouth but I'm not. My passion for gaming runs deep. So deep that I am seeking it out as my career and have already began classes to achieve just that. But looking at it objectively, I want no part of the gaming industry if its just filled with businessmen who don't give to [REDACTED]s about the players. Being a player, I hope to make a difference one day.
Did you expect it NOT to have more damage? That alone isnt enough to be happy. Maybe for you, but, in your case. Passive acceptance please.
Posts like this make me honestly think that PWE pays people to troll actual testers and players with legitimate complaints and objections.
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Now now..... you don't need to be that brutally honest. I think (hope) we're making our point.
I agree with everything you are saying, and that goes for everyone else who realises what is going on. We had this same argument when it came to the initial crafting system, that charging dilithium to progress faster was ludicrous.
I remember someone saying that we'd come to a point where a Pandora's Box was being opened and it wasn't going to be pretty, and I only wish I could find the quote because that basically sums up how I feel about this.
At the end of the day, the amount of real-life currency that would have to be spent to keep this going in any reasonable manner, either spending to upgrade with superiors or basic upgrade kits or any of the other progress-blocking things is only really affordable by well-to-do people, as no one is going to find grinding this from scratch over more than a year particularly fulfilling.
The sad thing is, people are so blind to the facts that they will just take it with a smile.
Its a matter of long term economics vs short term economics. Prior to F2P, Cryptic had a long term economics plan. A slow but steady revenue that will only increase with popularity. But now with F2P, its all about getting money now, in the short term. Micro-transaction here, exploitation there, etc etc. I couldnt afford a subscription to play this game but at least I know that my money would be well spent. But that's nowhere near what it is now.
Right now a rarity upgrade attempt costs 1.5x the cost to upgrade from XIII to XIV. But if--excuse me when--it fails several times in a row the true cost is more like 4-9x the cost of upgrading from XIII to XIV.
So if I have a standard Ultra Rare beam array* Mk XIV that costs 144,000 TP to upgrade from XIII to XIV, then it that means the cost to attempt a rarity increase is 216,000 TP. If the upgrade does fail 5 times before succeeding on the 6th time that's a whopping 1,944,000 TP needed to go from UV to Gold.
Rough numbers say that this is (assuming you crafted the upgrades yourself):
163,400 dilithium to apply the upgrades +
2,280,000 EC to craft the upgrades +
crafting mats & components (and their EC cost if you bought rather than farmed them)
for one rarity upgrade on one weapon**, and that's using only Superior tech upgrades which require level 15 in an R&D school to craft (I'm not going to even try to predict what the going rate for these on the exchange will be for those that don't have level 15 or refuse to participate in R&D but I can guarantee it's not going to be 15,000 EC which means inflate the EC number above by another digit to 22mil. Also note that my above math doesn't take into account TP overflow but the difference would be negligible. And that's not to mention the cost of getting to XIV UR in the first place.
Honestly it's really not fun at all, even if you ignore the staggering cost of a Gold item, to have an upgrade fail repeatedly. Can't we just have a fixed cost on rarity upgrades (frankly 90,000 dilithium should be plenty for a Gold upgrade)? Mark Level upgrades are already a fixed cost; you get a guaranteed Mk level for X amount of TP. Why can't we get a guaranteed Rarity level after finishing XIV for Y amount of TP? What we have right now is a hidden cost system for rarity upgrades. If you only casually glance at the TP price to "attempt" a rarity increase it looks fairly reasonable on its face, "Hey 216,000 TP is about 18,000 dilithium, that's not so bad for Gold quality."
Of course I expect that if we had a guaranteed Rarity level for Y amount of TP then instead of being 1.5x the cost of an XIII to XIV upgrade, they would probably jack the price of a rarity upgrade up to 3x or 4x the cost*** of XIII to XIV and that would scare away the aforementioned 'casual glancers' that don't pay attention to the hidden cost system that will blindly throw more money at the system, because then the true cost of a rarity increase would be laid bare right up front for them to see; info they would normally not calculate.
And of course, none of the above includes any "Skip now" dilithium costs during the R&D or Upgrade process for the impatient ones out there. Of course, the time gating required for crafting literally hundreds of upgrades, plus the time gating on the upgrade process itself is designed to 'encourage' clicking on that Skip button. Who wants to wait weeks for upgrades?
*or standard deflector, shield, engine, warp/singularity core. (Including Fleet gear and Lockbox/Reputation store weapons [not reputation set weapons])
**For space reputation gear, multiply these numbers by 1.66
***This is effectively how the system works right now already, it's just that the system is designed to obfuscate the fact that the true cost is several times more than an XIII to XIV upgrade. When you take into account the RNG's fail/success ratio it's probably tuned to average out to a rough X cost for a rarity upgrade that is some multiple of the XIII to XIV upgrade.
Joined January 2009
And they will most likely sell guaranteed quality upgrades for around $10, going off Neverwinter.
It seems like this is a system that will separate people who plan poorly from their wallets. It won't be the end of the world for smarter players who play it "properly" as you can mitigate more than 75% of the cost by waiting.
I do expect outrage and quitting. I think the basic system is workable but it needs more frustration vents. Maybe...
1. Get rid of the timer and reduce dilithium cost for just doing a pure quality upgrade attempt. The timer is okay when upgrading between marks but doesn't really do anything but frustrate when attempting to upgrade the quality of Mk XIV gear.
2. Issue one guaranteed upgrade per month to gold players as a new gold perk.
3. Have quality upgrade accelerators of around 5% drop from Elite STFs.
4. Attach tech upgrades to mission replay as an optional reward. 5 tech upgrades per replay? With a bonus weekend where that reward doubles.
5. Follow the NW example with Coalescent Wards on the C-Store. These guarantee quality upgrade.
Now... Because we have 46+ upgradeable gear slots versus a much smaller number in NW, I think the sensible thing to do there would be to offer bundles with significant bulk discounts.
1 CW-type item for 1k ZEN. 5 for 2.5k ZEN. 15 for 5000 ZEN. 50 and some special bonuses like a hull texture (epic orange nacelles?), title, costume, etc. for 10,000 ZEN.
Neverwinter has a few ways to get Coalescent Wards. I think it would make sense to have STO offer them as a possible reward from ESTFs, possibly as an added Gold perk (or a fixed number as a new Vet perk -- especially as some vet rewards have become moot), and REALLY (I can't overemphasize this) offer bulk pricing because we've got 46 gear slots we're trying to upgrade.
I realy like the idea of having visuals for Gold and Lifetimers. Epic orange nacelles sound awesome! I WANT!!!
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I don't see how you and I are in disagreement.
I think you're failing to factor in the C-Store side of upgrades, which is where the system will get easier. Tacking on CW-type items to the C-Store is the main suggestion. Tossing a few into gold perks or vet rewards would just be deal sweetening on Cryptic's part.
The big thing and I don't want this to get lost in lengthy requoted posts is that while this upgrade system may work fine for NW, NW doesn't have gold or lifetime subs and, most of all, reiterating:
In STO, the average player is potentially going to upgrade over 44-46+ pieces of gear per character.
For this reason. the system needs fine tuning from its NW iteration. And since I expect a lot of the softening of this system will be tied to C-Store consumables and that prices may not be finalized there, I REALLY think the feedback that may prove essential is for Cryptic to really remember that players may have 50 or more pieces of gear to upgrade per character.
In the average mission in the game, a player will be using46 potentially upgradeable, different pieces of gear in the course of a single mission.
Something has to give when it comes to upgrading all that under the current system. Could be C-Store item upgrade pricing. Could be upgrade costs. Could be dramatic reduction to ground upgrades. But something.
Heck, you said it yourself. But what way is there in STO that makes the acquisition of something difficult without a time-gate, giant cost, or both?
It's the same reason you can't get to T5 in a rep system in one day. And the same reason it costs a fortune in dil to max a crafting school in one day.
That being said, I do think the dil price is kinda high.
My character Tsin'xing
There isn't a way in STO that doesn't require a time-gate, giant cost, or both to aquire something of value, but since we have already dealt and ground through that, why do it again?. Time-gate I can deal with. That completely makes sense to me. But giant cost? I leave myself asking: Why!? and then I think about
Dude. You're spamming all other feedback by re-posting that constantly. You can link to that post rather than re-post that wall of text. We've seen it. Anyone who hasn't read that isn't going to.
And I have no issues with "pay or grind" if I'm having fun. If I'm having fun, I'll drop money or invest effort and it's wired into me that it would be wrong not to.
I've dropped F2P games that were fun to play because I wanted to put money into their development and I didn't see an enjoyable way to spend.
Well if that's how you feel. Passive acceptance... nuff said. And I didnt know I could link the post. thx for the tip. and its not spam if its relevant. Also, I didn't know 2 times (not including initial reply) counted as constantly
I actually bought 10 of the C-Store 1000Zen R&D packs, then copying over my "mule" toon repeatedly and mailing them around ...
The hours I spent click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, clicking to craft first the components for the kits, then the kits themselves, is another area that is in SERIOUS need of a revamp .. .First by having the option to create more than 5 at a time! For components it should be simply 1 click
Click "Craft" and If you have the materials, and the EC/Dil, then you should be able to just "click" once and done ... The current system of 3 different windows is totally flawed.
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The C-Store packs on Tribble drop 1.5 and 2x TP boost Tokens and Rarity % boost Tokens, which are 'consumed' on each click BTW.
As a test I decided to upgrade my Mk XII Jem-H Deflector to Mk IV Epic.
Then we have once again click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, clicking! ... Bring over the "Fill" button from Neverwinter as well PLEASE.
Using the Superior Upgrade Kits, it took 427 of the Rarity Boosters and 538 TP Boosters to get there! ( Sorry, I got into such a "zone" with the brain liquifying, mouse clicking, that I actually lost count of how many Tech kits I used)
And even more important after spending Tens of Millions of Dilitium and I don't know how much EC, I didn't even get to choose what [Mods] I wanted!
It would have also taken somewhere along the lines of two and a half Years, If i had waited for each of the CD's on each of those steps to finish.
That's INSANE! And quite frankly TOTALLY unacceptable!
It would be nice if universal consoles didn't require kits just for simplicity sake.
I noticed that as well and I'm not sure if it's intended because they're universal, or just a bug. Generally you need ground tech for ground items (except shields, which use the same shields tech as space shields), beams for beams, cannons for cannons, projectiles for projectiles, etc..
-edit- From the blog:
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/7005783-gear-upgrade-system
Joined January 2009
i also think the dill price on the kits should be cut in half across the board because as is is just way to much dill as we still need the dil to buy the weapons int he first place then spend the dill to upgrade them
Aren't set pieces also a pain to upgrade? I thought those were a pain also.
Yeah and that bug too. :P
Yes. Reputation set pieces are the most expensive things to upgrade, which means the most clicking and misery involved. They cost 1.66 times as much to upgrade as a regular item. See my signature.
It will cost you the same amount for every item.
For example, 1 Very Rare beam array Mk XII needs 192,000 tech points to go from XII to XIV.
Thus, 2 beams need 384,000 to get them both from XII to XIV, 3 beams need 576,000, etcetera.
Also I priced out a rough estimate of how much it would cost to get all of the gear on my main ship from XII to XIV, and separately priced Ultra Rare, and Epic upgrades, all in the table available in my signature. I think I will skip Ultra Rare and Epic upgrades entirely if the prices don't come down. That's just too much for me to handle.
Aaaaaaand has anyone worked out a proper formula for including Tech Point overflow? It's probably very simple but math was never my favorite thing. :P
Joined January 2009
My god! This upgrading system is worse than crafting. At least with crafting, when I hit rank 15, assuming I have the mats and doffs, I can just keep pumping out top level gear at less cost than it would if I were rank 1. Yet the upgrade system can't be the same way? Like once you have enough TP for, lets say beams, I should be able to put any and all beams through at no additional cost. This would be dynamic in terms of how many total points. For example, I have X TP in beams which allows me to get to Mk XIV free, but if I add more TP, not only can I get to Mk XIV but I get a rarity upgrade as well. This, to me, makes more sense.